How To Talk To Anyone (Once You Know Their Colour)

28:58You are open-minded to friends' ideas. You don't like conflicts, changes. Maybe not your cup of tea, but you're nice and you're helpful and you're very polite and all of these things. Excellent listeners are usually green, as an example. You're going to be like this for the rest of your life unless you suffer some specific trauma of some kind. Trauma could be near-death experiences to, let's say, to lose a child, for instance, which is a horrible, horrible event in anyone's life. I cannot imagine how that would be. It changes people. It tears them apart. Now your personality gets sort of ripped into pieces, bits and pieces sometimes.

29:51And I've seen super red people, you know, high-level energy entrepreneurs burn themselves to the ground, you know, waking up blind. I had a client like that 10 years ago. And he came out 18 months later totally green. The exact opposite. It's just family. All the systems closed down. couldn't breathe, they put him in some respiratory care I don't know the English word for it but he couldn't breathe, everything was left pumping was hard at the end and they fixed him they repaired him and then he came out 18 months later, now I'm okay you know, three toddlers at home and building a house and building businesses, he said I can't live like this but that's extreme usually people are kind of the same all through life, even though they learn new skills, they learn how to adapt in a certain situation, all of these things, sure.

30:48But in full freedom, they will be who they come out as based on 50 % DNA and 50 % nature versus torture, who you come out when your frontal lobe closes, regardless of what age you're in. That's who you're going to be, basically. And I guess that's fine if you are in the right place in life. you're dealing with the right people you have a partner that is sort of supports you you have a partner who understands you and you understand him or her you have a you have a boss who tolerates you and you tolerate her or him or whatever you have sort of workmates that are okay to be with you're in a great position then you can be you which is the best yeah i can continue this path for like forever, but you know.

31:36No, it's beautiful. Well, let's, I know that some people will be in the comments and will love this because they're salespeople. So let's really give the salespeople something to kind of sing home about. So you've taught thousands of salespeople from your experience who are typically better at selling, extroverts or introverts.

31:59Tricky question. Yes and no. that extroverts, as reds and yellows, red people, which are extroverts and task-oriented, they are good sales reps because they have this inner drive. They like to conquer the business. They want to win, you know. If they can bring home the deal, they feel like winners, and they're going to celebrate, and yay, whoa. Yellow people are also extroverts, but they are people-oriented. They have really smooth talking, you know. They have excellent language. They are not as competitive as the red ones, but they have a really exceptional way with convincing people and making people feel good, you know, and sort of boost people's egos and so on, which is also good.

32:53They have their way with words. They can make anything sound like just an amazing experience. They can sell ice to penguins and sand to Bedouins. if you like. Blue people can be good sales reps if they deal with other blue people, because that's people who are exceptionally, let's say, patient. When you have to make like 25 meetings in order to close the deal, then you need the blue guy, really. And they will give you the data, they will give you the evidence, they will bring in the Excel sheets. They will say, you have to buy our system yes it's expensive but because of this and that you know and then we give you all their expertise they have read up on everything they are exceptionally well prepared if they have a drive for making money or for making business they can also be excellent sales reps absolutely but they don't have the same natural drive as an extrovert but they do it they eat themselves into an organization.

34:00They are following the grand scheme here. They are plotting out every decision maker, everyone who is interfering or have some sort of influence of any decision. They plot the whole organization. They have 25 meetings instead of two meetings. So therefore, I have met a lot of great blue people who have made great sales. If they are blue in combination with yellow, It's usually very good because then they can smile from time to time. They could be a bit robot-like. The ones who are struggling and anyone who's listening, I am not now. The following is not to say green people cannot sell. I'm not saying that.

34:40I am, though, saying green people have to work harder than the other ones because they are conflict-avert. If the client says, the customer says, no, okay, sorry for interrupting. Sorry for disturbing you. My fault. I'm so stupid. No, no, no. Green people don't like changes, especially quick changes. They are very pleasant to be around. They're very friendly. They're very kind, very helpful. But they don't usually push the client into the corner. In a negotiation situation, if the client says, well, it's not in the budget. Oh, I get it. Okay, I'm so sorry. That's just a negotiation gambit. I don't listen to those things.

35:23It's not in your budget. Well, put it in your budget then. You have to put it in there. Let me talk to your supervisor and we get it into the budget so you get what you need. Buy these things. So green people are struggling. I have met good green sales reps. I have met those. But it's more rare than reds and yellows. And I think there's a reason for it. They are a little bit too helpful, a little bit too kind, a little bit too friendly. They sort of get in touch with people and they have lunches and a pleasant evening, you know, and everything is just fine. And it's hard to sort of squeeze it out or your new buddy here, you know, that's not good.

36:04Red person can have a business lunch and still, you know, raise the bar extremely high just because it's business, you see. Sometimes business is tough. I don't have to tell you that business can be really, really tough, right? and if you are afraid of speaking up, if you're afraid of a bit of, let's say, unpleasant conversations where you have to sort of push the customer a little bit, maybe that's not helpful. But there are exceptions. Again, self-awareness. That's the key in leadership, in sales, in anything, self-awareness. where where do you see people making mistakes when it comes to selling to these different colors then well that's easy that's because they give they give the prospect what they think they want to hear which is usually based on what they want to hear themselves instead of listening it's the same thing if you don't find out their their real needs if you don't go through the sales fund and you know the correct way if you start to presenting your offer immediately instead of asking all these you know whatever how many questions there are supposed to be seven questions or 19 questions or whatever open-ended questions all of these things if you don't gather information and just start to push that's not going to do you any good and that could happen to any color it could happen to anyone you have to sort of even though the you know why you are there even though you know what You can see maybe you did some sort of analysis beforehand or that.

37:41You can say, well, this is what they need. I'm going to give it to them. Well, if the prospect don't see what you see, then you're going to mess it up again. And most people know this by now. Most people understand it. But we get a little bit eager, you know, a bit impatient. Then we sort of start to push for the deal instead of asking questions and saying, let me go back to my desk and make some calculations. Let's see if I can give you what you ask for here. Then you come back two weeks later and say, okay, I have done a really thorough analysis of your answers beforehand here, a fortnight ago, and I want to really, I'm not sure I can solve it, but here's my proposal at least.

38:17Let's have a conversation. You know, you take it easy. You don't assume you're going to close the deal. You play the unwilling salesman sometimes. That's one of my favorites. I don't know if I can deliver this to you, you know. I don't know if we have it on ourselves. oh you want this, you want that I'm not sure we'll see, let me get back to you oh we need you, we need you to come to talk to our convention here, we have to have you in our huge in my case it could be, now I don't do these these myself, but my team does it for me, but sometimes they say, I don't know if Thomas is available oh but it's 19th of September yeah, it's his birthday not sure if he can come how much is it?

39:03playing the unwilling. That's a dirty trick. I understand that. But sometimes don't be too eager. If the client, if the prospect can see that you are super eager, you really need this deal, then you are in a weaker position. Everybody understands this on an intellectual level, but when you're in the meeting, if you have a red person in front of you, they don't want to hear all this, this and that. They want to know how much is it and when can you begin? Don't be too smart with those people. They are super impatient. If you talk to yellow people, you have to boost their egos. You have to tell them, oh, lovely office.

39:46Wow, so big and you have really succeeded. Wow, how did you build this organization? I am really, really impressed. Tell me your story. How did you enter this business? If you're dealing with green people, you always say yes to coffee, tea, mineral water whatever say yes to everything the first 45 minutes be friendly, smile a lot control your body language if you talk to blue people expect nothing but robot like behaviors don't flatter them don't say wow this is sexy such a lovely wallpaper they couldn't care less you sit down, you open your laptop you only use words you can you can put your name on, you know.

40:31Well prepared, you have a thick pile of you have a manual if they ask questions and you are okay by saying, I don't know, can I get back to you on that one? You never say to be a person, you don't make up an answer just to get out of the situation. They will check it up and if they can if they can confront you with, you know, an untruth, let's say, I'm not saying it's a lie, but let's say, that's not correct. They're not going to invite you back. Reds don't care. They don't know the truth either. And yellows, they just don't remember it. But yeah.

41:13Thomas Erikson:Our book is out now. Sales is therapy is available everywhere. For people who are looking to get better at communicating, asking better questions, closing more deals, and bringing in more clients. Beware, it is not for the faint of heart or for closed-minded people. You can buy it in all good shops. Links below. Probably removing body language because we spend a lot of our time speaking to people on the phones in like first instances. And there's a phrase in sales, you might have heard it, people buy from people. Actually, I don't think that's very true. It's people buy from people like them. So one of the sales things is we want to sound like the person on the phone, whether there may be a red or blue or whatever.

41:59So how how would you think about those early indicators of if I'm trying to think of what kind of communicator I'm speaking with? How would you source that? Would it be research in terms of job roles? Would it be looking at their profile picture on LinkedIn and saying, oh, they look like a yellow? How would you think about that, Thomas? well sorry to say there are no bulletproof systems here if you can't see the person it's going to be a little bit in in in you're going to be in in the dark here there's no way around that actually what i usually do when i don't know that could be a live meeting it could be a zoom meeting it could be something like this it could be a phone call it could be it could be an email conversation or some people text me these days and come up with, well, you know, this and that.

42:50What I do is I go green. I go green, meaning I talk less. I ask open-ended questions that cannot be answered by yes and no. And then I just open up my ears because greens are excellent listeners. So go green. And the more you listen to the other person, the more information you can gather, so to speak, which gives you more fuel to your analysis. If it is a red person, they will get straight to the point. Just bam, like this. Okay, what do you have for me? What is this? How do we make this phone call effective? Shoot. What are you selling? How much is it? What is it? Is it any good? Okay, that gives you information.

43:37But you have to shut up. If it's the other person, they're going to be hard to stop because they're going to talk oh are you calling me again well you know funny story i think i know a buddy of yours because i met this guy at the at the pub you know blah blah blah blah and then you have to sort of you know with big mickey mouse gloves have to sort of push them in the right direction but but still you listen a lot if you if you have a green person you you you you would they will have a softer voice and they would be kind and friendly oh who are you and and what can I do for you? How may I help you?

44:09You know, they have a sort of a more kind approach. You can hear that on the phone as well. They don't, they don't yell and say, hey, what is it? I'm sort of in a hurry here, you know? No, no. They will say, oh, this is my lunch hour, but that's okay. What was it about? Oh, yeah, I can't remember your name. Oh, I'm so sorry. Did you call me last week? Oh, terribly sorry. If it's a blue person, there's a problem. They won't say anything. but that's a clue in itself I have to tell you a story, do we have the time? I think we do this sort of a

44:45division management kind of guy one big division within a big corporation a couple of years ago he called me up and he said I think we made a bad recruitment here I think we got the wrong guy for this position so what's wrong with you? well he just sits there And I said, what do you mean? Yeah, it just sits there. But what do you mean, just sits there? Did you give him a desk? Yeah, he took the desk, you know, he turned it around, facing the wall. He's back to everybody else, 49 other people. Didn't want to see them. He just sits there. Just sits there. He's got to be doing something. I said, what is he doing?

45:17Yeah, just sits there. It's nothing moving at all. Yeah, well, his eyes are moving up and down quite quickly, really. But why is that? Well, the things on the screen are moving a lot. Well, how come the things on the screen are moving a lot? Well, you know, typing the keyboard constantly like this. You know, I think I have the solution. I think it's working, I said. I think it's working without distracting anybody else. He's blue. But he doesn't say anything. There's nothing to analyze. That's a lot to analyze, actually, because blue people speak when they have something to say, right? And by the way, for everybody who is struggling with introverts, not saying anything at all, which would be blue and greens, actually most introverts speak a lot around the right people if they don't speak to you maybe connecting this back to where we began this discussion maybe you're the problem maybe you haven't managed to invite them into the conversation really that could actually be the case maybe you should do that work harder on that but you can do that i like that i i heard a quote once it was like there are no introverted people they've just got shit friends which i think is quite beautiful um well that's not true but it's a funny saying i guess i want to this might this might be like a a bit of business advice but i think it'd be really interesting to get your opinion on it so we do a lot of interviews for sales people and during the interviews and the the hiring stage we'll always ask the question how do you like to be managed how do you like to be communicated.

46:56Some people like it softly, softly. They like to be buttered up first. They like to have their ego stroken. And some people like it direct. I would say 99 % of salespeople that we speak to say, I like it direct. Two months into the role, there might be a piece of feedback that is direct and it goes down like a lead balloon. What questions are we asking wrong? How can we ask them better and why are salespeople lying to me? Well, I'm sorry for laughing. That's such a beautiful example. You could ask any kind of occupation the same question. They will always say, how would you like to be addressed?

47:40Well, straightforward. Tell me, say it as it is. No one would say, oh, you have to sugarcoat it. You have to sort of pat me a little bit on my You have to find the best way. You have to bribe me with some fancy lunch. Of course they won't say that. Would you like us to tell you the truth? Who would say, no, I hate the truth. Instead, tell me I'm fantastic and brilliant and raise my salary. No one's going to say that. Everybody, 100 % will say, tell it as it is. Straight to my face, just hand it over and I'll do the best of it. but in reality 90 % 0.5 % of the people can't take it and how do I know it's 90.5 % because 9.5 % of the population are red they can take it but everybody else no sir no no no no for a yellow person if you criticize them if you give them negative feedback you don't like me oh this is horrible my boss you know he hates me he's such a bad person.

48:47A green person, they would just fall into bits and pieces. They would go home and have a glass of wine and say to their wife or their husband, I think I'm in the right place. 19 years more of this, I can't take you now. People are so unfriendly and so unkind, I don't know what's wrong. I did my absolute best. And the blue person, they would take out the Excel sheet and say, well, you're actually wrong because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And here's the evidence for that. So you're the problem. But red people, they can just say, shut up. Working harder, I can work harder, you idiot. Let me prove it to you.

49:18But they are the only ones who can give you the straightforward feedback and actually take the straightforward feedback. They might get mad when you tell them, well, you're a lazy son of a, you know what, you didn't pay attention, you didn't listen in the last meeting. You messed it up, buddy. What are you going to do about it? Because it's going to be an argument. And they say, so, are you going to sort of repair this mess? Yeah, sure. But they have to be a little bit, you know, aggressive around it. But they will fix the problem. They are task oriented and dominant, you know, and competitive.

49:51If you say, I don't think you can fix it. Oh, that's a challenge. I'm going to fix it. God damn it. I'm going to fix it. Sorry, technical term. But you know, but 90.5 % are struggling with reality, struggling with the truth. That's just, it's a human thing. It's not a sales reps thing. It's a human thing. really now now you say that i'm thinking about my office and i'm going oh i've only got one red person in my office they've all told me they're red but actually i've only got one red person who um who can take it so everybody wants to be red because it sounds kind of cool you know but most people are not so that's another insight for you so this might be a big question but it's probably like a nice place to dig into just before we wrap up so for for leadership and managers when people listen to this they can put themselves in their own bracket if they're self-aware enough how do you get the most out of your team like what what is some of like the top three advice bits that you'd you'd say do this think about this say this what what would you say one thing is don't fall for cool statements on linkedin like we can have people working from home because our staff are grown-ups that's just stupid thing don't trust that silly that's just some some idiotic saying it's a cool phrase and people say yay whoa we can trust people Well, maybe.

51:23But a lot of people need follow-ups. They need feedback. And you can never give them feedback, negative or positive for that matter, because we need positive feedback more than we need negative feedback. I'm not saying criticism or smack on head. I'm saying feedback, which is how to flip it back to you. Okay, when you did this in the meeting, this was good. This could have been better. Here you messed it up. can we have a conversation? We could have done this better. I'm sorry, maybe I didn't instruct you well enough, but can we talk about what happened over there in this part of the process and so on?

52:00If you don't follow them closely enough, how could you ever lead them or guide them or feedback to them if you don't see them once in a fortnight? How would you do it? What you have to do is you have to meet your people. You have to sit down with them individually. individually group meetings are good team meetings are useful absolutely but an individual conversation now and then not every day maybe not even every week but that you sort of let's say just what do the americans say i'm getting back to you they have a certain phrase for this they say something coming back to them there's something that they used i heard someone now it's gone but You have to talk to people.

52:46You have to talk to them because they are all individuals. That's cliche, but everyone is different. No one is exactly like the other one. If you treat, that's one thing. You have to sit next to them. Yeah, but my guy is working like 200 kilometers away. Yeah, tough luck. Then you have to have a Zoom meeting with your suit on, and your tie, or maybe have to put on a shirt at least, and look like a professional. don't sit there in a filthy t-shirt with ketchup stains no no no you have to be a professional you have to sort of make them respect you in a positive way I mean in a positive way but also they are you cannot treat everybody the same way it sounds super simple but most managers that I meet they treat all the sales reps the same way they have every 10 days some sort of conversation and they follow the checklist bam bam bam how what did go what did you do good what what could you done differently where where are you disappointed what what help do you need you know what are your your successes what are your biggest losses you know and you have this and you file it and you put it in in a binder somewhere you never look at it again but you can't do that you have to some people need 90 minutes feedback sessions every week.

54:07Some people need five minutes every month. And it's your job as the leader to understand who needs what. That would be my second idea. And the third one is going back to where we began. I think some managers find themselves surrounded by idiots. It's only idiots working here. Well, I hear this a lot from from entrepreneurs, contrast people here, you know, these people are department A, just idiots, no department B, lunatics, weirdos, departments, see, don't even get me started to create people contrast anyone. Well, the only natural follower question is who brought in all the idiots? If you can't answer that question with a straight face, then then you're the problem again.

55:02Right, Jacqueline? You're the problem. If you hire this guy, and you probably did, then you are responsible for him or her. Now it's your job to make the best out of it. Yes, there are bad recruitments. There are sometimes we misrecruited. They lied to us. The resume was corrupted in some way. What do I know? That happens. It could happen. It could happen to you as well. So that's too bad. It could happen. But usually you recruited them, you follow the process, you bring, you brought them on. And now they are messing it up. It's your job to fix it. It's your job. Don't blame the person at hand.

55:42Don't blame him or her. Don't say that's an idiot. He just can't cope. I have to get rid of him. You know, the probation period is coming to an end. We're going to, you know, actually replace this guy. Well, maybe you should sit down with him or her and talk to them a little bit. What is happening? What is going on? Because there are a certain frustration phase that usually comes within four to eight months when people sort of dip in motivation and engagement, commitment, it goes down because they get confused. Now the only thing they have learned in the new corporation is what doesn't work. They haven't seen themselves succeed in any bigger, on any bigger scale.

56:21So, but it's your job to fix it. No, it's not fair. No, it's not easy. Yes, it's going to take some time. No, you cannot pay attention more to the specialist stuff than you do to the people. If you imagine 11 guys, then your main function is to deal with those 11 guys. Your main function is not to support a financial office with data. It's not to support your CEO with whatever he or she is asking for. It's focus on these 11 people. That's your job. That's number one. If you don't do that as number one, then you're a bad boss. There's a book for you called Surrounded by Bad Bosses and Lazy Employees.

57:05By the way, it's two books in one. Buy it. It's a great book. You can borrow it on the library probably. I would say. But the thing is this, it's your job. A lot of people, again, as I mentioned before, if you're an expert in field X, then you're going to get a managing position. But that's another job. Within sales, it's typical. The best sales guy gets to be the sales, the team leader. But in order to make him really a good role model, we're going to double his budget at the same time. now we really have no time for leadership right that's just that's I almost said it's stupid but that's a bit too harsh but it's not good it's not good if the top management team thinks that's a smart idea I would advise them to rethink this if you hire the best sales guy to be the team leader let's say that you actually do that.

58:05Be aware it's a new job. Maybe you should cut the budget in half or take it away completely. Make this person be the mentor for the other 11 persons, the other 11 sales reps. Make this person the best role model to instruct them, to teach them, to visit the clients and so want to be with them and to give them feedback, you know, and really to raise their sales awareness, the nerve, you know, the instincts that you need to be the best of the best when it comes to sales because it's a hard job, especially these days. It's a really, really tough job to sell because everyone is so critical and no one has time to listen to anything.

58:54Yeah. Long answer. beautiful one this is things that i truly believe i truly believe in this yeah i think there was there was so much actionable takeaway and it's funny that you you you brushed on the working from home piece i spoke on a panel yesterday about working from home and somebody on the front row they put their hand up a leader and said i've got one person that works three days a week and the other person wants to do that but i want them in the office full-time what should I do I was like you need to learn how to have a tough conversation that's that's what you need to go away and do and Thomas thank you so so much for joining us I've really really enjoyed this and I've got so many ideas buzzing around my brain already when it comes to to my team and leadership obviously you've got many incredible books if people want to find you or they want to buy your books what's the best thing for them to do the books you can find everywhere where books are sold.

59:52So that's the smallest problem. If you want to see what I'm up to, what I'm doing and so on, you can go to surroundedbyedits.com and you will find everything there. Online courses and my schedule for the upcoming autumn and so on and so forth. So yeah, that's where you find me on social media, but I'm not big on social media. I really don't understand that. I like people. I don't like algorithms. I like people. So real people. That's where I mess it up. Sorry to say. Thank you so much. That's where I start. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Thomas.