How to Use FBI Tactics to Win Every Sales Call: Chris Voss

0:09We Have A Meeting.

0:30of her boss. Today I can't believe my eyes when we set out on this podcast journey. We said we wanted to have someone on the podcast. We tried our best. Chris Voss is here with us now. I'm speaking to Chris Voss, hostage negotiator for the FBI. Finally today we've made it possible. We're joined by Chris Voss. Thanks for finally letting me come on. How can you mirror bringing the power of silent? What is negotiation? How do I know that you even know what the hell's going on? How do you challenge somebody without confronting them? I'm a cold calling salesperson. I am unwell. What's the neuroscience behind that?

1:01The best way to deactivate a negative is not to deny it, but to call it out. I love that. So how do you use a label to get deeper and talk about the things that aren't being said? It's going to sound harsh. You're not going to like what I had to say. What persuaded the government finally to come out? I think it was excellent hostage negotiating.

1:23Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the We Have a Meeting podcast. Today, I can't believe my eyes. When we set out on this podcast journey, we said we wanted to have someone on the podcast. We've tried our best. We've had his son on, his whole team, everyone around him. And finally, today, we've made it possible. We're joined by Chris Voss. Chris, how are you? Yeah, I'm fantastic. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for finally letting me come on. Yeah. So we always start these podcasts off the same way, with the same two questions. So who are you and what problem do you solve? Who am I?

2:03It could be a philosophical question. What are we all doing here? What's our purpose? Yeah, I'm Chris Ross. I am the author of Never Split the Difference, negotiating as if your life depended on it. And I solve communication and collaboration challenges. Okay, okay. And I think a lot of people listening, they'll come from all sorts of varied backgrounds. They might be seeing negotiation as something that happens in a hostage situation or in a boardroom. So in layman's terms, if I was explaining it to someone in the pub, what is negotiation? Collaboration. Anytime anybody wants or says they want something, if the words I want or I need are crossing your lips or in the mind of somebody you're talking to, and that's the purpose of the conversation, then you're in a negotiation.

2:58It doesn't matter. Most people only think it's when money's at stake. The most common commodity that's there all the time is time. Like if you're trying to get somebody to give you directions, that's information. Take the time to give me directions. If you're trying to get somebody to get you the cup of coffee that you asked for, that's actually a negotiation. I heard of Starbucks people that say I give decaf to people who are mean to me.

3:25So it sounds like when I'm trying to get my son to go to bed on time, that's a negotiation. Yeah, if it's a collaboration, if you see it as a collaborative effort and you're trying to get your son to go to bed on time, you're also trying to get them to think. You're trying to get them, you know, your children, their parents' job is to help the kids think. You're trying to help them build good habits. I mean, sleeping is an essential pillar of life and getting your son to recognize that in a way that it's not, it doesn't seem harsh. It doesn't seem like they're being ordered upon us. You know, these are the challenges.

4:00That's collaboration. Yeah. I love it. So, Chris, we run a sales agency, So we do sales for other companies. We help implement it in other companies. And if people are listening to this and they're new to sales and they've never heard of you, so they must have been living under a rock, where do they start? So all of your techniques we love and we use them on a daily basis. If somebody was new to sales, what should they try and master first? Where would you steer them towards? Well, first of all, the definition of what sales is. And I once heard, recently heard Mark Cuban say sales is helping. And in discussing it with my team, you know, we agree sales is helping.

4:46And another member of my team says sales is helping people by shining a light on a problem that they have. That they either knew they had or they didn't even know they had. But, you know, first of all, it's got to be helping. And secondly, the transition from sales into negotiation. if negotiation starts as soon as I want or I need is in somebody's head, then sales is to get them to recognize a want or a need. And helping them solve it is your job as a salesperson. Now, a lot of people don't see it that way. A lot of people see sales as just making a transaction. And, you know, they're not going to last or they're not going to be happy or they're not going to make that much money.

5:31or they're going to come to a point in time in their life where like, I haven't been helping people. You know, this is immensely a spiritual less experience. You got to be helping. Sorry. So now you got that in your head. You're helping. Sales is helping. Be a great sounding board. The indirect method path to closing a sale. the quickest path is indirect because you want you want them to pay you want them to perform you want them to come back you want them to repeat customers being very transactional in sales is a guarantee that people are not going to repeat they feel that they were just a transaction there's no loyalty they're not going to come back to you they can't count on you to help them They're just counting on you to take advantage of them.

6:22So the indirect route. On a hostage, on the crisis hotline, which I started at before I became a hostage negotiator, it was the sales. You know, understand people to shine a light on a problem they have and get them to agree to take action. That's the call to action. That's the end of the sales. You know, you've got a call to action. What's a call to action in a suicide hotline? Get them to agree to do something that they will actually implement. So let's say we're going with that analogy. Let's say we buy that. The call to action at the end of a crisis call is the same as a call to action in sales.

7:04How long do you think it took me to get somebody to call the action on the hotline? 20 minutes or less. like when I first got there they told us that if you use empathy correctly not sympathy but this helping even challenging approach your time limit your time limit is going to be 20 minutes not only that if you do it right it's going to take less than 20 minutes imagine your sales sales calls maximum 20 minutes and I remember thinking at the time you got to be kidding me. In all the movies, people are on the phone with folks for hours. I mean, I'm a big fan of Richard Branson, one of the world's greatest salesmen.

7:49And I remember in his book, Losing My Virginity, about his early days, he talks about, you know, he did suicide hotline stuff when he was in his late teens, early 20s, and he'd be talking to people for hours overnight. Well, he hadn't been trained. His heart was in the right place, but he was spending hours in something that should have taken 20 minutes. Now I'm going to go back to this challenge idea also. Because there's a book out there called The Challenger's Sale. And there's a lot of great things I like about that book. The principal underlying cornerstone is that the challenger salesperson performs the best under all economic conditions.

8:35The best attitude is to be challenge on a crisis hotline i had to challenge the caller to act that was the middle part of establish a relationship boil down a problem challenge a call to call it at the cta the call to action challenge them to act the challenge is there you want to be a challenger now how do you become a challenger that's when never split the difference comes into play because we give you My book gives you the emotional intelligence tools to be a challenger. How do you do it in a way where people don't feel attacked? They don't feel caught. They feel mentored by you. They feel helped by you.

9:17You combine any good sales book with the methodology, it never split the difference. You're going to be a hell of a salesperson. So much to take away from that already, Chris. I think it's so interesting. if you can do what you did in 20 minutes on the hotline, then there's no excuse why salespeople can't do a demo or a discovery call in 10, 20 minutes. Everybody needs an hour or two hours. So I think that was a great takeaway. So I want to get into those kind of techniques because what I hear when I'm with salespeople, they struggle with the line from challenging to confrontation. So how do you challenge somebody without confronting them?

9:59Well, it's confrontation or even assertiveness. If empathy precedes it and you use a great tone of voice, then that's what gets it to land. Empathy's got to precede it. What's empathy? Simply articulating how they see things. Simply articulating the negative aspects of what they see. And the scary thing is getting it out up front as to what negative aspects they might have towards you. That's neuroscience. A neuroscience experiment has been done over and over and over again. The best way to deactivate a negative is not to deny it, but to call it out. You don't say, I don't want you to think that I'm just another salesperson who's trying to just get you to buy.

10:50That's a denial. I don't want you to think. How do you switch that into emotional intelligence? Fearless. You say, it probably seems like I'm just another salesperson who just wants you to buy. Going from the denial to the observation. It's just an observation. Neuroscience has shown over and over again that changing it to an observation, calling out the negative, is the best way to deactivate it and keep it deactivated. even if it doesn't exist yet. One of the things that we found out in the Black Swarm Method, what happens if you call out a negative that doesn't yet exist? Is it like the devil?

11:34Say the devil and he appears. You speak the devil into existence. The crazy thing about it is you actually inoculate people in advance. And that is scary because everybody's used to the denial hell of the negative, and then having somebody go crazy. I started doing this really as a matter of self-survival. When I'm working kidnappings internationally, I roll into an embassy. They got a kidnapping in the country. I'm sent out from Washington, D.C. I am unwelcome. You know, the self-appointed expert from headquarters is just there to tell us what we're doing wrong. And I'm a threat. I'm a sales.

12:24I'm a cold calling salesperson. I wanted to change their methodology. You know, you would think on the outside they'd welcome experts. Well, that's from the outside. From the inside, it's a message that Washington, D.C. doesn't think they know how to do their job. And I'm there to prove them wrong. They didn't like it at all. Out of sheer survival to get these people to listen to me, before I would say anything, I'd say, this is going to sound harsh. You're not going to like what I have to say. And they'd relax. And they'd listen. I was calling out the negatives in advance. I learned the hard way because I used to show up the first couple of times in the embassy.

13:04I'd just start telling them what to do. Do this, this, and this. Who the hell do you think you are coming here from the outside telling us what to do? And finally I thought, let me try this. This is going to sound harsh. You're not going to like what I have to say. and then I'd say the same thing as before, but instead of them getting offended since I inoculated them from the negative thoughts, they'd say, nah, that wasn't that harsh. You know, you're just telling us the truth. So this whole idea of being able to inoculate against negative reactions, I started out as a self-survival mechanism, and now it's actually one of the main cornerstones of strategies that we teach everybody in business and in sales, Inoculate it in advance.

14:17all the time no other better connection right wow nooks.ai did that technique work if you were um so let's say you were taking over from another hostage negotiator and the um person who'd been taking the hostages had been used to someone else is that the way you would introduce yourself as i've taken over or is that a totally different tactic that'd be required well something really close. I mean, calling out the negatives in advance, the empathy methodology that is, is something we call the accusation zone. Something that's really close to it is a summary. And so if I'm taking over and somebody else, the hostage taker or the customer on the other side, what's their first thought?

15:05How do I know that you even know what the hell's going on? Like, I never heard of you. I don't know if you have any idea. So if you summarize the situation from the beginning, then what happens is you let them know what you're up to speed on. And one of two things happens. They're like, wow, this guy does know what's going on. Or they correct you. Now the really counterintuitive thing about being corrected is the other side loves it. Like, as human beings, when we get corrected, we're embarrassed. We're horrified. We think we don't look like an expert. We think we look like idiots. That's very self-centered.

15:48The person on the other side, when they correct us, they're helping us. So if you're as a salesperson taking over from somebody else and you sit down with a customer, client, how will you refer to them? And you summarize for them. First of all, you show them that you're trying to get it right. you're actually indicating to them that you're really coachable and your number one priority is getting it right and then suddenly if you're wrong and they correct you now they're no longer an adversary they've effectively come around from across the table and they're sitting on your side of the table and they're helping you out it's a great relationship to be in so on the handoff summer summarization is just an immensely powerful skill Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we really love about your techniques when we're teaching new salespeople.

16:39A lot of them, there is no wrong. Getting it wrong is also getting it right because people will correct you. And if you get it right, then you get the that's right response. One of the techniques I wanted to get into was labeling and mislabeling. So what I see a lot is maybe in conversations, someone's shared that something is frustrating and they've even used the word frustrating. And then the person labels back, that sounds frustrating. And it's almost not deep enough. You're just saying the word back. So how do you use a label to get deeper and talk about the things that aren't being said? Well, ask yourself what's causing it.

17:17And frustration, which frustration is a result of it? Sounds like you've tried some stuff in the past that's failed. Frustration, each negative emotion is set in time, if you will. And you feel frustrated when you're being denied something in the future. It's a negative emotion about something you're trying to get to. Now, anger is about something that happened in the past. You've got a negative emotion about something that has happened to you. Those are two different emotions. The negative emotion is going to start to give you clues as to what's going on with them. what sort of time frame their mind is in the moment.

18:06And frustration in particular is about where people are trying to go to. So you could also label that. It sounds like you've tried some stuff that's just not getting you where you want to go. That's what frustration tells you. That's a deeper level of insight into what they're going through. Think about the negative emotion, where the trigger for that in their head lies, in the past or the future. and i really want to pick your brains on on all the different techniques that you talk about chris so one of the one of the big ones is the f-bomb the f-word fair so when we start a cold call we'll we i might say chris i'll be honest it's a sales call you can hang up or let me have 30 seconds so i'm trying to get a bit of an accusation audit in there and get it all up front all the negatives and then somebody will say well what's it about call me back later where did you get my number and i'll slow it right down i'll say great question look let me run through in 30 seconds and if it's not relevant we can leave it there is that fair nine times out of ten people will go well yeah go on then even though they were kind of resistant start what why is the word fair so powerful and where can people be using it more in life day-to-day and sales well uh human beings have a real intense desire to be fair.

19:30They want to think of themselves as fair. They want to avoid the accusation of being unfair. Now, using it in that context is good, but for me personally, I've got to be really careful. First of all, preceding the time frame, I'm always, always, always going to ask for slightly more time than I need. Because you're going to love me when I give you time back in your day. You know, my favorite analogy is like, be the airlines. Like, what the hell is Chris Voss talking about when he says, be the airlines? So probably about 10, 15 years ago or so, you know, on-time arrivals with the airlines, it was really, really important.

20:12Is a plane showing up on time? And some airlines are just getting slaughtered if the plane doesn't show up on time. So I'm thinking like, all right, you know, now these airlines are breaking about on-time arrivals. I'm sitting on this one airline one time we landed LAX and I'm not going to name the airline but the pilot we land and the pilot says well you know we're 20 minutes early and because we're early our gate isn't even ready yet we're so early we've done such a great job getting you guys here fast and the gate's not ready and so as soon as the gate's ready we're going to taxi in And I remember thinking at that point in time, like, this airport is stupid.

20:57Like, this airplane is really big. They got radar and they saw us coming from a long way away. So it's ridiculous to think that we showed up by surprise. And then I thought, wait a minute. The airline's lying to us. They had a scheduled time. The airport knew all along when they were going to show up. But they lied to us about it, and they actually changed the time of destination arrival at the other end, knowing all along we're going to show up 20 minutes early. But I'm sitting here. Who am I mad at? The airline for lying to me or the airport for not letting us get to the gate? So the airline's lying to everybody, and I'm happy as hell with the airline.

21:43So they're giving me time back in my day, and it's just a manipulation of the perception. So I never go over time that I ask on anybody. I always have a really good amount of time that I'm going to ask for and what I need. And I'm only going to ask for slightly more than that. And even if we're having a great conversation, I'm cutting this baby off on time because making the trains run on time and giving you time back in your day is something nobody else is doing for you. because I want you to take the next call. The next time I ring on the phone, even if we had a great conversation last time, if I take you 15 minutes over, there's a good chance I've screwed up you all day.

22:26So, and you're going to remember that. Even if the conversation was great, the last impression is the last impression. Those last 15 minutes while I'm messing up your day, you're checking your watch, you're checking with your assistants, you're trying to figure out what you got to move back. I mean, it's a mess for you. If I get off five minutes early, You're like, hey, look at this. You know, I can check my Instagram. You know, I can go get a cup of coffee. You're delighted with me all along. So I'm very conscious of how we manage time to begin with. If I'm going to ask you for 30 seconds, I'm going to be done in 20.

23:01Typically what we coach people to do is if you need 15 minutes, ask for 18. Odd number. People pay attention to that. I'm going to be done in 15. If I need five, I'm going to ask for seven. So I'm going to manage time very carefully in the call so that no matter what, no matter what, you are always delighted with. That way, when I drop the F-bomb in a little while, if I'm planning on dropping it, then even if I meant it with all sincerity, if I've taken them out of that time frame, I'm the one who's being unfair. and they're never going to know. The fair is such an emotional word that you've got to be really, really cautious with it at all times because the minute somebody feels like you called them unfair or made them feel that somehow they were unfair, what it means is they're probably not taking the next call.

23:59I love that. And when you said manipulation of the perception, brilliant. When it comes to, let's stick on airlines, because I get excited about stuff like this. But if we stick on the airlines and we think of low stakes environments where you can use all the skills that you use. So, yeah, we can use them in cold calls. Yeah, we can use them when we're buying a secondhand car and negotiating. Brilliant. What are some of the low stakes games that you can play? And if we stick on the theme of airlines, when we had your son on the podcast, we were talking about asking for upgrades. So if someone's listening to this and they're like, you know what, I'm getting a flight to Las Vegas next week.

24:42I want to put Mr. Voss into action. How would they do that? Well, yeah. And Brandon, you know, he had invented the most sort of this methodology on upgrades if they're there. because I'm, you know, back when I was teaching at USC and every now and then he'd fly out and co-teach with me. He'd co-talk with me at every university I was ever at. And he's in Maryland, I'm in LA, and he calls me one day and he's like, hey, look, just want you to know I missed my flight. I'm coming in on a lot later flight. And he sounds really upbeat and actually really proud of himself. And I'm like, you know, where is this coming from?

25:22We miss a flight. Like, how are you happy that you miss a flight? So I don't know if he told you this story. He shows up at the airline and you've got a problem at the counter. Or even if you got an ask. Empathy is about understanding what the other side sees. Situationally aware. Airline personnel are being hit, slammed on a regular basis with selfish, self-centered people that are blaming the airlines for them being late to the airport and self-effacing humor. So he's late. He's going to miss his flight. He's one of these dudes who, you know, he carries on and wants to show up 10 minutes before a plane takes off.

26:02You know, time is money with him. He counts it in the airport especially. I think what he told me, he said, was I'm here to sign up for the stupid customer of the day. And because what's a person think? Like, you're an idiot. it. You got a clock just like everybody else. You know how long it took to get here. Don't blame me because you can't show up to the airport on time. You might be the dumbest person I ran across all day. So he's thinking this through. What do they say to themselves? How do we make it fun? I'm here to sign up for the Stupid Customer of the Day Award. And he says this lady just kind of laughs and she finishes typing and she goes, okay, what do you got?

26:38Like the people behind the counter at the airport, they have so much power, so much influence on changing your seats around and making changes. You know, never be mean to somebody could hurt you by doing nothing. Well, the flip side of that is if you treat the person across the table from you right, it's shocking what they can do for you if they feel like it. And she kind of laughs and she says, all right, what is it? You know, I'm the idiot that missed my flight. And, you know, I want to get on another plane. I don't want to have a I don't want to step down in class and I don't want to be charged airline fees.

27:19And I'm just a selfish idiot because what are all those ass make you sound like? You know, not what is it in reality? Not what is it to you? What does it sound like to the other side? That's empathy. And she kind of laughs and she puts him on another flight because it got the seat. chooses not to charge him any fees. She puts him in the same class of service. And then when she prints out a new ticket for him and she said, don't be late next time. I might not be here when you come back. And he's got time. He goes home and he cuts the grass at his house. He turns around and comes to the airport again.

27:57He's just proud of himself like crazy. So the airline people, what does it look like to them? When you walk up with your ass, What are they saying for themselves? And if you can articulate that, especially in a playful manner, what they will do for you is amazing. What is the neuroscience behind that? Because that's come up a few times in terms of people prefer to hear things from their perspective than be, but then your perspective be pushed on them. What's the neuroscience behind that? Well, first of all, what's going to go through their mind and how are you helping them think? There's playfulness is a superpower.

28:41The late night FM DJ voice is a different kind of a superpower. Now, that's calming and soothing. It doesn't actually help you think. As a matter of fact, while I'm calming you down, I'm slowing your brain down. If you're in a rock, paper, scissors approach to emotional intelligence, if you're angry, I got to calm you down first. It's very difficult for me to take you from anger to playfulness or positivity, upbeat, curiosity, delight. I got to calm your anger first before I can jump you into that higher threshold. So where are you at when I approach? Now, you're 31 % smarter in a positive frame of mind.