How To Use The Socratic Method (For Selling, Sales and Conversation)

0:00oh wow we're in we're in hot i didn't see the countdown you didn't see it did you can i tell you what i was about to tell you because i think you'll enjoy it um sometimes when i'm on my own i just think about me and zach we're in a podcast together doing an interview and people are asking these questions i think about things i could say that would wind you up do you do that in your life like what like somebody saying like how how long have you guys known each other and then i was thinking the other day of saying something like we've known each other since we're about 15 but in 2014 we went to brighton together and that was the trip that really made us friends and i know even the reaction i know at this point we're even do you you know what i was thinking about the other day so me and zach we had a day out and we said right let's go somewhere that's not london on the two places on the table with brighton great night out and margate really why was margate even on the table no offense to anyone from margate well i suppose it's like a throwback kind of place isn't it it's really not dissimilar to blackpool i think that's what we're looking for where i grew up so did i it's a funny part of essex blackpool but that's where i grew up okay topic of conversation today is something that salespeople i think struggle with but i think they have the best intention in putting it in place and some people call it reverse questioning.

1:30I think it could be known as a Socratic technique as well. I'm trying to think what the other thing is that it's called. Reverse question is the one that I know it as. There is another thing that it's called as well, but I can't remember. Do you know what reverse question is when I say that? I've got a few ideas. What would reverse questioning look like for you? Well, what ideas are you starting with? probably a few different trains of thought when it comes to like reverse questioning i guess when when you're reverse questioning in a situation what do you how does it typically sound probably easier to focus on one of those trends of thought that you've got i mean does one jump out more than the other so if i said that the main one would be you're having a conversation with somebody you're talking about a certain subject but actually it's like a hot potato i I don't want to hold on to it for too long.

2:21Do you ever find in awkward situations you using it as maybe a get out of jail free card? When you say awkward sessions, what do you mean? I actually said awkward situation. Sorry, awkward situation. Maybe there's a lag. Well, there's a few different awkward situations. You know, in fact, you'll know this better. Have you ever been to a networking event before? um networking event is interesting because i think that word has got quite conflated networking when you say networking event what do you mean by that well maybe not even an event that is uh specifically for networking but there's always like an element of networking attached to it but you strike me as the kind of person that probably wouldn't enjoy going to those kind of things if i said i was confused by the premise now do you think that'd be unfair no i think i probably lacked a lot of clarity is that something you think i do often lack clarity yeah okay that's fun fun uh talk me through what's just been happening because some people will be listening to that and think that was the rambles of two madmen for two minutes okay so if you were listening you probably picked up on me and jack were purposefully not answering each other's question right which is a technique called reverse questioning which is basically an antidote to the salesman's curse of running in and answering a question and often kind of oversharing and perhaps answering just the total wrong question you know what what's the pricing structure before you know you've given the pricing structure the discount and your first son's middle name you know like These are things salespeople really overshare.

4:10So reverse questioning is just a means of, before you answer something, just getting the kind of why behind the question. Why am I being asked it? You probably shouldn't run into answer big, open-ended questions without first knowing why you've been asked them. Is that a fair place to start, Jack Framston? Depends what you'd class as fair, to be honest. The technique that you used at the back end was, I can't remember what you said, but it was a mirror. And I always think that when questioned to be enthroned at you, it's so nice to, it can't be the same move every single time. So if you're asking me a question, I go, great question.

4:49It feels there's a reason why you've asked me that. Great question. It feels like it's all about sounding human in those situations. So yeah, right, okay, yeah, that's a good point. I guess when you're thinking about that, and I play this character and probably falls into the idiot category but where I'm really like thinking about what I'm saying even if I know where I'm going with the conversation or what I'm going to say I always think about it and I kind of play this character that might be a bit more stumbly over his words or hesitant to answer just so you've got that time before you go in you know I used to work for a very short period of time at a recruitment business right that was my first job out of uni didn't last very long because it wasn't wasn't for me but i asked who who's the best guy here and uh this guy on my team said oh it's i've actually forgotten he's a name it was a guy sat at the back who actually in a quite an alpha loud office he was the one who he didn't really he didn't really get that involved didn't really say much i said what makes him the best thinking like it's going to be some sort of mad skill or something and he said to me he hides the salesperson i was like oh what does that mean so you're like watching him go around and that thing that we were doing then if it was on a sales call would probably start to show the salesperson because like you were saying you start to play the same move okay that's an interesting question oh that's funny that you've asked me that what makes you ask me that like you have this kind of customer service show many thing that happens where people can detect it and go oh i I can see the salesperson in that.

6:26And I think for reverse question, for putting the question back on the person who asked it, the number one thing that you'll spot if you're doing it wrong is it comes across as avoidant. And the prospect probably starts to double down and go, no, no, I just want an answer. Just answer the question. That's how you know you're getting it wrong. So you've dealt with this quite recently in your team, this kind of avoidant thing when you're delivering it. What are the antidotes that you've seen that really work to delivering it properly? I'm a big fan of something I've labeled the U-turn. You know the U-turn?

7:01Don't think I do. Okay. So I think that so many people are going to ask questions, and the avoidant bit is where you go, yeah, great question, or you go, before I answer that, let me ask you something like that. That is like a typical, I've seen you ask me a question. Actually, I don't give a shit. I'm throwing it at a wall. is that that uh meme with the plate here's the plate and you go fuck yeah that classic meme so i think the u-turn is as a human being we go to answer it so anything you ask me i go to answer it i actually catch myself in my track so i gotta be like oh fucking hell i'm about to do something wrong here let me just go back a bit so you could ask me yeah i was gonna say let you could ask me the the pricing question how do you price it what are the commercials and how much does it cost good good question so when it comes to pricing there's three different packages so we've we've the start well like i i guess before i jump into it but i probably want to know like rather than boring you to death for five minutes i can just maybe like tell you what would be more focused for you when you're looking at lead generation typically how many people are you trying to get in front of on a monthly basis that might not be my necessary question but i don't like a lot of stuff that you say but i want to be really clear on why that works so well because we talked about avoidance being the issue right what jack just did then is he let me believe the answer was on the other side of my question i was just about to answer it but i just need this bit first and then i can answer it it wasn't like a oh was that your question there's the plate being thrown across across the room um beautiful stuff mate really enjoyed that thanks mate i think i might have learned that from you actually i've just given it a name and people like stuff like that what about let's try and think of like the big broad open question that could be a trap that's not pricing what could another example that be i'm trying to think of one and are we thinking of cold call or are we thinking in this discovery?

9:06Yeah, cold call discovery. What could come up? What do you know about me already? All right, so this is a good one. And I'm going to give people the – this is one that people, particularly from like the Sandler school of thought, can sometimes get wrong. Right. What do you know about me already? This is your classic chance to be avoidant. But we have the ability in front of us to use the internet, right? So if I'm dealing with, Jack, give me the question. What do you know about our company already? Right, and let's imagine I've got the tab open there. So outside of you being an AERP system for the construction space, probably not much more than that because the questions I'd have for you are, when it says construction space, is that massive tier one contractors?

10:00Is that more focused on like a boutique part of the industry? Where would you put yourself? uh good good can i listen i'll tell you something we were talking about it in my office this morning you might actually not like it because it was top of the dome stuff it was something that i haven't used before but i hear this question coming up a lot recently and it's like how much do you know and i think when we were we were back on the phones full-time i don't think that that was something i was running into so i think it might be a symptom of something else or maybe people are just fatigued with sellers whatever so and and this is a bit of like a permission this is what i said i said you could go a bit left field with it the way you could do it is say i'll tell you what i know but just before i do that can i just preface it the last call i was on i went in with all the information that i'd found from the website and the guy bollocked me and told me i was completely wrong even though that was the information on the website so i can run in and tell you or actually it might just be beneficial for you when it comes to who you're trying to get in front of and what problem you're trying to solve what what does that look like yeah good so there's a few tools there so jack's there is probably for like yeah if you're a bit more of an extrovert and you're comfortable delivering it like that use that i would say an alternative might be answer it a bit i know you're this and you focus on this but i probably don't know how x problem affects you that i solve always get it back to there the never as in the never do is never answering short punchy you know i well i know you're a software system right like don't do it like that go i know you're a software system that does this that that helps with this what i probably don't know is how the problem i solve affects that that's that's obviously something that i couldn't find on the website or through looking at linkedin or glass store or whatever and this will be maybe like counter to some of the stuff that you hear out there just just i'm thinking if someone rang me with the advice that's commonly out there and i i probably wouldn't say it but if i did like do you know do you know some stuff about us have you done your research blah blah blah if they went well to be honest you're the expert so as much as i know about your website not much but it wouldn't make me feel good but if they dealt with my slightly irrational question of am I an expert with I know this and this but I probably need to understand this from you it would just ease that monkey monkey mind of mine that the key thing and people might think this is some sort of manipulation is I don't really want the other side to feel like I'm avoiding their question or playing a game or being a salesperson at all to take that recruitment example using that business that way I want the salesman to be hidden.

12:44I love that. That's a t-shirt design in there, isn't there? Hidden salesperson crouching commission check. We'll work on it. What's the task this week, Jack? I was just about to ask, when you say task, what do you think the task should be? Alright, I'm going to give people a task at home. I bet it involves Marco Alfonso Rogers. Alright, here's what you're going to do. You're going to review the podcast and put a comment on wherever you listen to podcasts you're going to screenshot that you've done that in a group chat to jack frimston me and owen richards from air marketing i went in my office and why are there your competitors i said are they being nasty to you No, they've been nothing but helpful, actually.

13:39If you do that, then myself, Owen, and Jack will offer you and your team free training. Wow, that's very generous with your time. You know what keeps making me laugh? We were doing a podcast the other day, and I keep thinking about it and crying, and there was a guy that was struggling with the green screen on his back, and you changed my name. It's a green screen. Yeah, really tickles me. Anyway, thank you for listening. take care cheers