Sales Prospecting Masterclass: Keenan & Will Aiken on Gap Selling

21:24Keenan:to you both about the psychology of attention we'll probably maybe like lean into cold calling first because that's where our background is and then maybe we can talk about um email and linkedin and stuff like that so the psychology of attention when it comes to prospecting probably gets batted around on linkedin a lot when you think about gap prospecting where do you start when it comes to gaining that attention by picking up the phone straight away

21:52Will Aiken:so i think we've been trained to look you've all heard that same phrase pan interrupt right Right. And everyone knows that's how you get attention by sounding different to everyone else. Right. I think everyone focuses so heavily on trying to find the best pattern interrupts. They stop focusing on like, what's the opposite of a pattern interrupt? What is the pattern? Right. I think people need to recognize that before they can truly interrupt the pattern correctly. Otherwise they're just using a gimmick that they might've learned somewhere else. Right. The few ways I think we, we, we mentioned and break that down in the book.

22:20Will Aiken:You can do that is number one is if you have any love familiarity, if your dad calls you, depending on your relationship with your dad or your mom or your sister or your friends or your wife, right? If they call you, you don't hang up on them and ignore their cool, right? So the number one thing you can do is look for familiarity because that circumvents the need to even get someone's attention if you can get something familiar. Not necessarily that you're their brother or sister, not even that you're a customer, maybe even that you work with someone that they definitely know already. That's a way to get familiarity.

22:48Will Aiken:You circumvent the whole attention thing when you start hitting people that people recognize in their world, right? whether it be a name or referral, whatever it is. The other things you can do, we break down three other ways. Number one is open a loop. So in the word of Coco and make it real for you, I like to say to people these days, hey, I don't even say my name up front because immediately they just go, who's that? What? And they start getting confused. I just go, hey, Jack, just taking a look at the WAM website. Had a question for you. It's Will over at SalesGrow. If you've got a moment to help me out.

23:18Will Aiken:So it's simple as that. And that might change. But the fundamental of it is that I'm asking, I'm saying I have a question for you. I'm showing that I've done a little bit more than most people probably have when they reach out to you. And they think to themselves, what question is that? What's he seen on my website? What questions do you have? And that creates intrigue in that sense, right? So that's one example. It's kind of opening a loop that you don't close because people don't like unfinished business. That's one example we could use. There are a couple more that we go for in the book as well.

23:43Keenan:Keenan, anything to add on that when you're thinking you've got maybe five, 10 seconds before some CRO says enough of this bullshit, like how are you capturing that attention? I like to combine a problem with the root cause right out of the gate. Right. So in today, I might do one that says, okay, I've talked to a number of CROs right now and deals are taking longer because you're getting to budget. That's starting to really start to creep in. Right. Where are you feeling it? So I might start with, hey, are you finding that your forecast to the CRO? Hey, are you finding your forecasts are starting to be missed because more and more of your deals are being stretched because your target customers aren't finding budget?

24:22Keenan:If so, I'd love 15 minutes to talk to you about it. We help all that, which helps out with other customers or something like that, right? What I like about that is if a CRO really has that problem and he or she says no, they are probably not very good at what they do or they're going to be the worst prospect in the world. So it's sort of like, I hate to say this, but it's real. In the real world, adult men usually over 50 do not like the doctor and don't go to the doctor. and so they start getting symptoms and they tell their spouse and the kids oh i'm and they go to the doctor please i'm fine right and no this is real and then by the fine time they get to the doctor the doctor's like yeah bro like you've got liver cancer and it's stage fucking four why didn't you come to me when this and this was going on and then they're panicked i mean i've heard multiple stories like this and then they're panicked then they're mad at the world and then they die because they just, for whatever reason, and so there are buyers like that who you put the problem in front of them and they will just pretend or don't want to talk to you about it.

25:25Keenan:But here's the part. They're the minority. If you do it right and you understand it's a CRO and you know today the deals are getting longer and you know it's because of budgeting and you put that out there, you are going to see a higher increase if people say, all right, fuck it, I'll give you 15 minutes, right? Because yes, I'm experiencing this. Now they may say, okay, what can you do? or who are you? But the point is you got them. You got them. The minute they want to ask that next question, because yes, in their head, let me do it this way. Sorry, guys. Easier and faster. Those two questions caused what?

25:58Keenan:When I asked those two questions, what does it force the person to do? Reflect. Reflect. Reflect. If you could ask a buyer a question that forces them to reflect am i having longer sales cycles is it because people are expecting budget and budget issues and they're holding on yes i do i don't like that maybe i should give this person an extra minute or two so the the language that we're using at the start of this call am i trying to make it as industry specific as possible so that they feel like i'm some sort of expert in that space or am I trying to make it sound as human as possible so I sound like someone they can complain to on the therapy couch?

26:44Keenan:What's the best route? You can't do, if you do the first, the latter happens. Go on, give me an example. If I am addressing something that's very specific to you, then I sound human. I can't accomplish, the second happens automatically, right? So I sound human if I'm like, hey, are you really experiencing long sales cycles because budgets are getting squeezed and customers are taking longer to decide? You can't not feel human for that because it's real. What do you think, Will?

27:25Will Aiken:I think you've got to be aware of what makes things not sound human. And that will immediately mean that you naturally avoid those things that sound robotic as hell. So Kim's problem about the problem thing. so we we go into the in the book we talk about these this this concept of two sales so to your point we took we've been focused entirely on getting someone's attention the whole point the second sale once you have someone's attention means you then have to get them interested enough to take action and spend some more time with you right if you're on a cold call you're gonna book a meeting if you're on the email you want to check something out or book a meeting with you whatever it may be that's the action the attention is only the first bit i can actually get attention very easily if i wanted to just go i could just pick up the phone they'd be like what the hell's going on like i've got their attention now right but that doesn't mean like anything good is going to come from that like what the hell is wrong with you if i was out on the street i could get a lot of people to look at me by just being naked or wearing some stupid right that doesn't mean anyone's ever going to work with me right so there's two things and if you go about getting attention the wrong way you're going to only fuck up your ability to so you can get someone's attention with these gimmicks and these these um these these kind of like out there patent jobs i saw an email recently like i saw you on jeffrey epstein's list i did you see that on linkedin someone sent that email a thousand people i'm sure they got loads of attention but it doesn't mean they got any interest after that that's gonna someone go well i'm gonna open that uh what the fuck it doesn't mean anything right so you gotta do it in a way that doesn't sabotage your ability to get interest and generally the way to get attention are uh okay so to go back to the earlier thing the problem that's that that we've caused buyers to have by basically handling the crappy outreach is that they now ignore us without thought right um so they're basically in their chip i like to call a chimp brain um because i read something once they're basically reflexing they're they're reacting they're like a knee jerk to everything we do until we actually get them to stop and think and then they're actually using their conscious brain which requires thought which requires reflection which requires them to stop and actually consume what we have if we jump straight to the interest piece without getting them to reflect first they would just ignore us right i could shout all i wanted about how free the gift cards are if i haven't actually got them to get out the mode of just go away swap then that would never ever work right so attention is the first piece of then getting interest and attention often happens when you can ask someone a question show that you know them that's a level of familiarity like we mentioned before as well you can share things that are familiar to their world not just maybe names or people they know that's another way to get someone's attention when they recognize something it looks different but most of all the most important thing you can do is avoid all the crap that everyone else is doing because everyone else is doing it all right the same subject lines the same cold cool open is the same um the first same first line of the email i hate to harp on it because i've done it for three years now but i hope this finds you well but like that's a very extreme example you might not be doing that but you're probably doing something in absence of that that other people are still doing that gets them immediately pegged and deleted or ignored or hung up on without any second thought

30:18Keenan:oh god i'm so tired i've just been talking to qualified prospects all day without any wait time How have you been doing it? Because I've been cold calling people on my mobile and I reckon I've spoke to one person. No, no, no. Stop that right now and use Nooks.ai. Why? What does Nooks do? It finds me the right people to call and it calls them and it connects with them over and over and over again. So you're saying it's Nooks.ai and I can just be speaking to qualified decision makers all the time? No other better connection, right? Wow. Nooks.ai. so this um maybe self-awareness epidemic of people not being as perhaps self-aware as they once were you you've got my attention but then you're the risk you've got is perhaps i'm not very self-aware or self-aware when it comes to my business so i don't really know what's going on like i have a feeling like some things aren't working as well as they could but most businesses are like that it's the economy it's ai what's it got to do with me nothing will change it anyway what what's the path that you then take me on once you're through that first sale you've got my attention to get me to self-awareness and reflection that's where i find the most the

31:31Will Aiken:reflection has the most power right so you ask someone a question or introduce new information that makes them consider that in the concepts of their world but that's that's where you go up front right you can do that in a few ways you can do that by talking about people just like them right so like i've heard a few of your calls guys i think you go i get invited on by a lot of successful business owners who when they're honest with themselves are facing one of this problem this problem right you but you can't do that straight away because they'll hang up on you basically right you have to first get them engaged in the conversation to even listen to that but then introducing information and asking a question that's often the best way to get them to stop and think and reflect and decide and then if they give that to you in a call especially you can then expand on that okay so how often is that happening when was the last time that happened tell me more about that you said it sounds like you thought about this before what did you do okay and how and i'm assuming that didn't work out too well or can you tell me what happened when you did that are you getting them into this position where it's all facing about them instead of considering anything you have to offer them in an email it's a little more tough to do because it's not a two-way but similar nature you can ask a question in an email up front that gets them to reflect or you and introduce facts, figures, information that other people have been willing to accept or see or notice.

32:42Will Aiken:And that will then get them in the same stage as well.

32:46Keenan:One of the things we put out in the book is symptoms and catalysts. So I like to use this story. We'll go with it. I did even before gap prospecting. And it's the marriage question. Okay. So if you ask the average marriage person, person who's married, okay, Not the person who's about to get divorced and they're still married, but they know they're out. And you say, are you happily married? About 85, 90 % of the time, they will say yes. Okay. Now, no matter what environment you're in, I don't care if it's school and grades. I don't care if it's a marriage and happiness. I don't care if it's the community you live in.

33:28Keenan:And there are always very clear symptoms or environments that tell us that we are aware of whether we want to admit them or not, that if we're forced to reflect on will lead us to that answer whether we want to get there or not. Okay. So what I like about marriage is like, you know, don't either of you answer this. But if I say you have to imagine, yes, I am. I say, great. Let me ask you a couple of questions. And you don't even have to answer the questions. What I like so much about this. All I have to say is let me ask you this. When is the last time one of you slept on the couch? When is the last time one of you called the other one a name in an argument?

34:01Keenan:When is the last time or the frequency of intimacy? When is the last time you got in a huge fight over the kids? When is the last time one of you bought the other one flowers or did something special? When is the time that one of you just walked up to them, gave them a hug and said, I love you very much for no reason whatsoever? Not. And what happens is I don't need the answer. If either one of you are married right now, you're asking these questions in your fucking head and you're then coming to the determinant. You know what? good good oh oh i oh no i haven't okay i've literally done this in training before and then i've had people write to me after the training not how great the training was or anything like you know what man that marriage thing got me i went home bought my wife some flowers i did realize i wasn't doing this and that i won reflection reflection so the same thing with business if you understand their business well enough i can figure out what i think the most probable problem or root cause or symptom you're having is going back to the marriage one.

34:58Keenan:If you're newly married, the problems are going to be different. They've been married for a while. So if I know you've been married eight, nine or 10 years, I know you're probably at that stage where the honeymoon's over, when most people get divorced the first time. And I ask questions like, have you found that you and your husband just don't connect like you used to when you first got married? Reflection. Yes, I hate it. I got you. You see what I'm saying? We all know the salesperson. People don't know them. They don't know to ask them, so they don't get a response. Did that even... Well, I think it's a beautiful answer, Keenan, but I feel like you can get away with asking those kind of questions on like, we're on a team score or a face-to-face, we're in person.

35:39Keenan:I've agreed here. How do you make it not feel like an interrogation if it's over the phone? It's how you start the first question, right? So if I get, let's use the marriage thing, if I get you on the phone and I know you're married, I know you're my customer, I'm like, hey, I'm Keenan, I'm a marriage therapist. I know I'm interrupting you. Can I get two seconds to tell you why I called? Great. Yes. One of the things we help companies do is address certain marriages. Can I ask you a quick question? Have you found since you've been married, this has happened or this has happened or this has happened?

36:13Keenan:They're reflecting. They're cornered now. If it has happened, I have a choice. I know it's happened, but I'm still going to say no, because I don't want this person to help me solve it, which is you're entitled to it, but now you're lying to yourself. Or I know it has happened, and I'm willing to give this person 30 seconds to help me understand why I should trust them and what's going on. Right? Or it isn't happening. I say, no, this has not happened. This truly hasn't happened, so thanks for calling them out. So it's not interrogation. It's less about the question and know which one you're asking.

36:45Keenan:Right? And if it's really germane, it's going to stop them to think. And that's the way. This is what everybody doesn't get. The more powerful it is, I know you're now eight or nine years. I know historically that's where people get in the biggest trouble, right? And where the most first round of divorces happen. Then I know the next round I think happens at like 17 or 18 when the kids are leaving. You see spikes, but those are the two big spikes. I know why those happen. so i ask a question i know will land for the largest majority of the people i'm calling right yeah i would also say yeah to keep pointing and i see what you're saying jack because when you

37:24Will Aiken:call someone they're not going to immediately open up to you right someone calls me and asks me about my marriage i might tell them to fuck off because none of their business also because i don't have one anymore uh let's not get on to that too many questions sorry even prior to that right if someone had intervened at that point which it would have been nice to have done because there was a few things behaviors that i could have there were a few things i could change was it worth changing maybe not but that's that would come in discovery in this example right um but the sometimes making it safe to say yes or no as well as it is a is a very applicable tactic but so you don't have to come at someone accusing them of anything you could say look i'm calling you because it looks like you've been married for about 10 years now, a lot of folks at that time find this problem pops up and it shows up because in this way or because of this.

38:12Will Aiken:And that often ends up ending in this. Or in some other cases, that's not so much of an issue. This is. Now, and I've heard you guys use a very similar to this, but then I'm like, or are you going to tell me that you've never been happier, you and your missus or you and your husband? All right. And I'm going to give them a almost like make it okay to say no and therefore they're much more like to say yes but i've also led with other people not me coming at you saying your marriage is shit i've led with facts i've led with things that show that i might understand because a lot of times people don't feel understood and that's why they're not willing to work with us if you can do some of those things up front you can get your increased chance of actually getting them engaged in that conversation

38:47Keenan:and giving you answers nice so we we have a um a process that we that we teach in internally that they have to tick all the boxes off before you can even try and book a meeting because we're in this meeting epidemic where people are trying to have a two-minute call using this process we found that actually most cold calls that convert later on down the line and attend and do all the good stuff that meeting should do is 10 minutes plus so using gap prospecting if you're selling marriage counseling at what point in the conversation what boxes do you need to have ticked for you to say actually i'm ready for the next steps let me propose to you excuse the pun guys

39:30Will Aiken:kina i'm curious in your thing of this because you and i did a training together and we had a we had a slight disagreement about where who should take that point onwards depending on skill set as well whether it's a bdr sdr how qualified they are to have that conversation so i'll give my take and i want to hear yours i would say if you can and you have the skill set to do it keep that call going as for as long as you can frankly be wary because they might have to be oh shit i've got emergency hang up on you and then it's lost right but like if you have the skill to keep diving into that and they're willing to talk to you keep that thing going right ask full-on question get into the gap selling questions that are taught in his in that book right in some cases though i feel like some people struggle with that and or potentially talk themselves out of a meeting because they have a tendency to stop asking questions and start

40:10Keenan:pitching but you know go ahead yeah if the question is at what point is it should it be passed on to an AE? Is that the question? I would say more so like, so I've cold called you, Keenan. We're having a conversation. At what point do I now say, however, my clothes would be Keenan. Great. We've been speaking for X amount of time. You've said X, Y, and Z. When would be a good time to sit down or would it be ridiculous? How do I close? When the customer says, yes, I have this problem. I, and ideally I can say, yes, I have this problem. I'll take it. but ideally yes i have this problem here's why so yes i'm unhappy using the marriage example yes i'm not happy with my wife now or my husband or it's i'm not having the wife husband because i'm constantly sleeping on the couch we're constantly fighting okay we can help and then you pass it on i can do just one but i prefer to usually if i get a yes to the answer there's one or two root causes that should be able to come very very quickly so yes we're missing our quota or here's my favorite one we're making quota but only 55 of my team is making quota which means they're covering for the other 50 and now on average they're below 75 our discovery sucks great pass it on so it's just notice this goes all the way back to the pick it's notice this we don't change we break it all the way back to the problem identification check if the reps know what's on the pick that's everything they should be all their outbound should be addressing that with the root causes get them to admit to one problem one root cause you're on your way okay I might be missing this.

41:37Keenan:So are you saying on that point, there doesn't need to be some burning impact of the problem, just problem, root cause? No, that's the job of the rep. Now, to Will's point, if you can get it and you got to talk or run with it, but I think it's very, very dangerous to have an SDR trying to do that, especially when they just interrupted somebody because that person could be very interested with, like, I got to go, I got to go. So like, yeah, yeah, you got me. Let's schedule the appointment. Let's just remember what we're doing. We've interrupted somebody. and the goal is to get to the meet with AE and give them more time, right?

42:09Keenan:If you're at a gym and there's a guy or a girl you've liked for a long time, you got and talked to them and they're like, yeah, I'll go out with you. And they want to get into the gym and keep working out. Don't keep talking to them. Get their number and let them do what they want. Take the win, bro. Take the win. Okay. Permission to play devil's advocate, Keenan? Do it. For us, there is, like I said, this process, but more so it's two boxes right and it's we're we're all singing from the same hymn sheet anyway do they have the problem but more than that are they motivated to solve it so the analogy i give i don't know i might have even taken this analogy from your book keenan so you'll have to call me up copyright if i said the um the cassette player in my car is broken you call me and say like we speak to people that having broken bits of their car i go yeah yeah that is broken but i've got one of those Bluetooth devices, it doesn't impact my life, but I do have a core problem because it is broken.

43:05Keenan:Okay. There's no, there is no level of motivation there, Will. And when we think about like attendance, remember we booked meetings for a living. If there's no level of motivation, when I see my diary on a Monday morning, I go, I've got that call about like CROs and data. Yeah, it was all right. That's, that's kind of where we get into the motivation thing. What,

43:25Will Aiken:what's your take so i think what you you said there almost if you're a radio salesperson you we this is something that happens all the time this is where the the there was a bit of this line when mickey and i worked together on this training because we work with a telecoms company in the uk um if someone says the internet is slow that is not a problem that is a root

43:50Will Aiken:we're not making it we're missing out on cut sales right that that sounds like an impact but we're not being able to pick up the phone to our customer if you to your point it's not that's the problem if a of a cassette player solves isn't broken cassette cassette player it's boredom so or boredom or i don't know maybe wasted time where you could be i don't know what it might be but uh because i've never sold cassette players but i think about that that would almost be what i open with almost try and get that sooner and then get that into okay okay because there's broken cassette player are you finding that your commute to work is mind-numbly dull or or i could think of probably a few actual problems that solves but i think that's where people think they're being problem centric but they're actually being they're just being the opposite of product centric they're just basically turning their product and saying if you don't have this does that that doesn't mean you have a problem yeah

44:43Keenan:right yeah what you do there what you just described my man is you described a root cause a broken processor tool. I don't have, my cassette tape doesn't work. That's not a problem. Now you can come in and you can, if you choose, that's again, why we go back to the pick. We are disturbingly consistent here. The pick is everything. So here's a hint to you guys. If you guys are going to continue, well, as you continue to do your lead generation for these companies, I implore you, please learn how to do a pick for every single customer. I beg you. And then give those picks to your caller. because if you understand the pick, you will put, if you're doing this radio fixing company, you will put a root cause in there and you'll get the customer.

45:26Keenan:If you choose to go root cause first and the customer says, yeah, my radio doesn't work forever. And then you say, because of that, go on to the problem side of the pick to Will's point, is your drive mind numbly boring or do you miss the fact that you don't have this music on your way to work or on long trips? If the answer is no, then you can say, why is it? Well, I just use Bluetooth now. I don't need it. Oh, then it doesn't matter. If the answer is yes, and you say, so is this something you'd like to solve and stop being bored? Yes. Are you open to 15 minutes to solve it? That's it. What you use is the right tactic with the wrong emphasis.

46:02Keenan:Nobody has motivation to solve a root cause without a business problem. And what you just described is what 90 % of most people do when they think they're gap selling. They sell to the root cause and don't understand why it doesn't work. You cannot turn that root cause into a business problem. Then your hose, if it is a business problem, the mere fact that they will meet with you is the motivation you need. If they say, I have a mind numbing travel to work. Yes, I will meet with you. That's the motivation.

46:32Will Aiken:Whereas the impact is the kind of more sensitive layers that would come after that, right? That's where I think you can begin danger zone of cold cooling because you don't have the trust and you're also still a stranger. so that's where it's better to book a meeting to sit down to discuss it in more detail because you will create resistance like in the marriage example if i went really deep on the impacts that would get very personal you know i mean i'm sure you guys found this when you've done discovery to a good enough level the heart the deeper impact you get the more uncomfortable the questions get to ask also the more uncomfortable that someone gets to answer them because they start getting really deep in like both quantifiable stuff they might not want to share with a stranger and emotional stuff that they feel really bad about.

47:10So I would say the problem is where you'd get to on a cold curve.

47:14Will Aiken:You push it further than that, I think you can run the risk of getting someone's defenses and their guard back up because they don't feel open to sharing that with you. We're a stranger, basically, because it's often very personal, deep stuff when you get into impacts.

47:26Keenan:I had a guy say to me once, can we kick the note taker out in a meeting? And we kicked the note taker out and he said, I need to fix this because I'm worried I'm going to go to jail. I was like, whoa, that doesn't get any better motivated than that. yeah exactly um the he's not gonna tell me that on a cold call because he'll be like you know is this recorded or what depends i'm speaking to might be on my burner phone um one of the the other interesting things that we're perhaps up against is ego right we've all got ego of various levels on calls and i'm keenan actually brought something before symptoms people not maybe admitting to symptoms you know with like family and stuff you know you've been tired for ages dad you need to go to the doctor that first pass round of problems you know when you're introing what you do and you mentioned those first few questions that are centered around problems and symptoms and things sometimes people just naturally go no i don't have any of those even though they do what advice maybe we'll start with you or what advice would you give to sellers out there who are hearing that first pass of no i don't have any of those and are just going okay i'll see you later then and hanging up give it to keenan on this one he's got a good thought So it takes a really, I hate when I have to answer questions that are so nuanced because I feel like I can't deliver value.

48:43Keenan:The way you have to address those is an unbelievable understanding of the market you're playing in. So my favorite metaphor, simile, whatever, simile in this one is we used to get this a lot when we'd ask people or reached out, look, are you, you find yourself missing quota, you know, a lot of our clients who use us, you know, I'm making sure they miss quote. And they say, No, we're fine. And what we started realizing was that was probably not the best question. But if it was a question we're going to ask, we had to be aware enough of how it actually worked. So the follow on question we would ask is, okay, fantastic.

49:22Keenan:But let me ask you this question. What percentage of your team is that quarter. So that's actually a problem underneath the problem. So they themselves, I don't have a problem. We're making quarter every year. Yay for us. But then you sit back and say, okay, great, but what percentage of the team is making quarter? Then all of a sudden they're like, oh, well, we're doing great. Both 75 or 80 % are making quarter. Okay. That's still not bad. Let me ask you about the other 20%. To what percentage are they missing it? If it's only, you know, they're at 90, 95, then I agree. The guy or girl doesn't have a problem.

49:54Keenan:But if it's, yeah, the rest of them are 75 % or below. Then I asked the question, okay, what is the average quota in the organization? And they'll say, I'm going to make it was easy math. It's a million bucks. So what you're saying, and then how many reps do you have? We have 20 reps. I'm going to butcher this math. What you're saying is 20 reps are only doing 700 ,000, which means they're leaving 250 ,000 on the, on the table, which means then that's about$5 million that you're leaving on the table. because not everybody is making quota. And they go, now that you put it like that, you see what I've done there?

50:26Keenan:So the way you address it when they say we don't have the problem is you have to understand how that problem can manifest itself. It's just like the marriage question. No, I mean, you kind of just asked the question we'd already answered, but I'm glad you did. It's just like the marriage question. Nope, my marriage is fine. Great, let me ask the question. When's the last time you did this? When's the last time you did that? I know that both of those are indicative of not a perfect match you still could be happy in the marriage you see what i'm saying but me making you realize these two things aren't perfect i should address those because if they're not killing me now they're going to kill me later that's how you do it you've got to understand how the problem breaks down and then dig into that to find out if a couple of those things exist and make them reflect i think i think what i'm more yeah yeah i think what i'm more saying if it feels like i'm asking the same question again is more that you have lots of salespeople who perhaps are looking for almost like the perfect call right so they're making a call and they're looking for the guy that's like hand up in the air yeah yeah i have those problems right and they're waiting around all day doing hundreds and hundreds of calls to get to that i suppose tools to have in your in your toolbox for people who naturally are going to go no i'm good we've got something in place already i'm happy what we're doing already i already have a marriage counselor like those types of things but i think that's a really good point just to go cool sounds like you're all covered just before i let you go how do you currently do this what do you do about x that's really good will anything from you when was the last time but no see what you just did wrong you said how do you handle this how do you handle that no no you're you're still causing the buyer to reflect without data if i have a marriage counselor and i think everything is going great but i ask you when's the last time you gave your spouse a hug and a kiss for no reason or when how when's the last time you stepped on the couch when's the last time you called the the other one a name.

52:16Keenan:This isn't solution oriented anymore. You see, everything you just asked is solution oriented. I'm asking you to evaluate your current situation. I'm forcing you to reflect on what is happening now. You can't hide from that. I have a marriage counselor. I'm going to her all the time, but I called my husband an asshole yesterday, and I know that's wrong. So something still isn't working. Do you see where I'm going here, my man? It's getting the buyer to reflect on what's not working. Once you get that string, then you pull that string. The problem is most reps don't understand. Will said this on the beginning of the call, and he was absolutely right.

52:59Keenan:Most reps and most organizations don't understand that when you call your spouse a name in an argument, that is a bad sign. Now, most reps don't understand that if you're not intimate at least once or twice a week in a marriage, even if it's been 10, 12 years, that's a bad sign. They don't know that. So they're not experts. So they can't ask the questions to get them to reflect. Most reps don't know if they're selling gong, that if just because you're a quota, if only 70 % of your team is at quota, that's a bad sign. They don't know. So they can't ask the questions.

53:36Will Aiken:to your point zach uh if someone were selling lead generation right you call someone say hey a lot of business owners if they're honest themselves they're struggling because they're not getting enough people or they're speaking to tons of people but none of them are really moving forward because they're not the right people right that might be covering a couple of symptoms or root causes there in the opener they go no no we have plenty of leads we use a lead generation service right right if we the worst thing we could do is to ask you about the lead generation service because just because someone has a lead generation service doesn't mean they don't have the problem that there's a lead quality problem or there's a lead volume problem, right?

54:08Will Aiken:So if we keep it entirely focused on that, long before we focus on the what and the technicalities of it, that will allow us to then get deeper. It's just asking a question a different way or asking the next deeper question about the symptom will actually show up. Oftentimes I think people object because we are too generic upfront. If I call someone and say a lot of people are upset because they don't have enough pipeline or they're not winning enough deals, that's really broad. If I went deeper than that, I said a lot of people are finding that their reps are not getting as many meetings as they used to do because of some of the changes that have happened here that allows them to relate to it more and it's more like they go yeah i do feel that a little bit and then it comes into the question all right so you mentioned that you you're finding your reps performance has gone down despite activities not changing how long has this been an issue for and then i'm digging entirely onto the problem and i don't even want to really touch that what they're doing i just want to talk about the problem uh on this school at least the technical stuff can come later or it could come once they've agreed to a meeting frankly if someone said okay if if it's anything like this if we could show you how other companies have got around that exact deliverability issue or whatever issue we get to the bottom of would that be interesting to you great yes and then i can ask all the technical questions so you mentioned your reps are using outreach sales loft you mentioned your reps are sending about 100 emails i can get all that after it but if i try and put that stuff ahead of the thing i think that's oftentimes what we lose people because the conversation has lost focus on the problem beautiful gents i've i've absolutely loved

55:28Keenan:this conversation it's been incredible the passion i think you're doing incredible things with with get prospecting if people want to pick up a copy i'm sure that there are stores beginning with a they can get it from where's the best way to go and get it they have to beg us for it

55:46Will Aiken:if you're in the us you can go on amazon it's going to be listing on the amazon in canada uk and the rest of the world very soon but the meantime we've got a link on our website where you can buy it directly from us because amazon screwed us a little bit on the listing thing so which meant that folks who are outside the United States are having a hard time getting hard of it. But you can get directly from a website or you can go to Amazon, check if it's available in your country, depending on when you listen to this.

56:08Keenan:Incredible. Thank you so, so much for joining us today. Thank you, James.

56:12Will Aiken:Always a pleasure.

56:13Keenan:Was it near your expectations? It exceeded them, Keenan. Exceeded. Exceeded them. The passion.

56:19Will Aiken:I'm going to run through a wall. La passion. All right, guys.