The BIGGEST Skill Gap Holding Recruiters Back: Hishem Azzouz

0:00Who you go in business with is probably more important than who you marry. I've sat down with a lot of founders now where they've probably spent more time demoing new products than they have, like making sales calls. That's the problem that we are dead set on trying to solve in the recruitment industry. And by far the biggest skill gap is that the sales side, over half of recruiters would probably say that the sales and business development side is the hardest part. I see this time and time again because we also have like a growing community of solo founders. I know when I worked in recruitment, it was just like learning on the job, doing it, doing the reps, failing forward.

0:33There was no sales strategy. The best leaders have done the hard work on understanding that on an individual basis and then they use that. But things like everyone needs a destination. Do people in your team really know where they're going? Are they doing enough input to really warrant the results they want? Probably not. There's a lot that goes into that. And sometimes that means putting your best owner, your top performer in check, or even letting those people go.

1:00Hishem Azzouz:Before we get started with the episode, our books are now open. If you need help getting in front of the right people, finding your dream customers, or winning new business, we might be able to help. Why not outsource your sales to We Have A Meeting? Just go to wehaveameeting.com. Hisham, welcome to the podcast. Great to be here. It's great to have you. You've got that cheeky glint in your eye today. We're looking forward to it. We're going to hit you with a big question, Hisham. Who are you and what problem do you solve? Name is Hisham Azuz. Main problem that I solve is the training performance problem, inconsistency problem that comes with the recruitment industry.

1:45So you guys will know recruitment is very similar to sales. And we've all heard this saying, you're only as good as your last month. And I think for a lot of recruiters out there, there's a lot of months that aren't that great so we're trying to help grown recruitment companies fix that inconsistent performance problem by giving them great training great resources that are all delivered by current top performing recruiters and uh that's the problem that we are dead set on trying to solve in the recruitment industry nice so i know that this episode today it's going to be a master class in working in recruitment setting up your own recruitment agency i know that there are many recruiters out there that have a photo of you on there war big poster um i guess the question is this why should they listen to you when it comes to all things recruitment yeah i always like to sort of preface when i do any sort of talks or anything like this where i'm in a really unique position and sort of say honestly that i've i'm speaking here from never setting up a recruitment agency but i'm in this i'm in this really unique position where now up until this point I've probably spent nearly a thousand hours with recruiters or recruitment entrepreneurs in really dissecting how they've achieved what they've achieved so I'm really unique uniquely placed to I guess draw the similarities draw the principles see what the golden threads are so today that's that's where I like to talk from is like I see a lot of things that people do there's a lot of things that people do the same there's a lot of people things do differently and that's where I'm talking from so you should listen to me because there's not many people that have spent that amount of hours really focused on understanding how they've achieved what they've achieved so others can learn from it.

3:28Hishem Azzouz:Nice so I want to go in kind of timeline order as much as we can so let's imagine we've got someone who's senior recruiter and they're thinking I think it's time for me to set up on my own and thousands of recruitment agencies probably pop up every year not many of them succeeding so what do you think is the difference between the people who set up and succeed and the people who set up and fail so these sort of things probably are universal but I do see them show up a lot so I think the first thing is being really clear on what you want I sit down with so many founders who say things like I think I should hire or do you think I should grow or maybe I should do this and a lot of this confusion hesitation just overall not a huge amount of confidence in what they should do next comes from not being clear on actually what they want and I think in today's world as well particularly LinkedIn because that's where a lot of recruiters are going to live comparison is is a real thing I think we can all relate to that but when you're in the trenches doing the job and you're seeing that your competitors supposedly are smashing it and you're not that's really hard and you'll you can often find yourself thinking what are they doing that i'm not doing am i missing something so i think the first thing really important thing is to be really clear on what is it that you want what type of business do you want do you want it to be a business where you earn good money your revenue is predictable you work with great customers and you don't grow a team and you're fine with that and you're happy with that or is it actually you want to grow a business you really like the idea or building something big or whatever big means to you.

5:05So I think the first thing is being really clear on what you want. Then onto that is I would say really don't be naive with who you start a business with. If you're going out to start a recruitment business on your own, cool, you've got a lot less things to think about there. But I've met a lot of people who start a business with someone else and it doesn't work out. And I think a lot of people can go into these things in a sort of naive frame of mind. And I know I've definitely experienced that. I raised a smaller investment for my business. And I was just so naive in that. I was very quick to give equity away.

5:41And you have to learn these things. The reason why I bring that up is I'm just a huge believer that who you go in business with is probably more important than who you marry, in my personal view, just because you're going to spend a lot of time with that person. And you're going to have to be willing to ask difficult questions, be willing to both look at each other and maybe be honest and say, actually, I don't know if I'm enjoying this anymore or I want this for the business and does that match up with you so if you're starting a recruitment business with another person like just do your due diligence and don't go into that naively I've met so many people that have worked with someone for 18 months and then they start the business with them and then I hear the the back end of that behind the scenes of like it was terrible it was hard if you're going out on your own that kind of its own challenges but then it's about being self-aware I'm just a huge believer that the entrepreneurial journey definitely my experiences it's one of the probably the most the biggest journey when it comes to self-development and personal development i was at a dinner the other day with a bunch of founders and someone said that it really resonated with me which was like going on that entrepreneurial journey is just basically really ending up holding a mirror up to yourself and it brings out all your self insecurities and i think yeah going on an entrepreneurial journey on your own is hard so you have to be self-aware and really be willing to go i'm really great at this what am i not so good at and have those difficult conversations with yourself because you're probably going to run into a lot of trouble if you can't sort of diagnose those things yourself so I think be really clear on what you want if you're going into business on your own think about those things if you're going into business with someone else definitely like yeah do the extra diligence on the people that you go into business with I'd probably start there I'd say that I don't know if you expect me to go there but I'd say that's like quite universal but if you get those foundational bits right i think you've got you're going to give yourself way more of a better chance of succeeding in the long run i'm sure you guys can relate to this but being i've been on this entrepreneurial journey for like five and a bit years now and it's hard so i would probably say it has to start there before we get into the tactics of recruitment all that sort of stuff

7:42Hishem Azzouz:do you think there's more of a power in i'm going to be super hyper niche or do you think the the generalist is winning more now what are you saying so i would say out of the like i've done over 600 podcasts podcast episodes now i'd say like 99 of them are like niche recruiters or that's how they define themselves so if we're if we're talking like more strategy then i think for people actually considering taking the leap you're going to make it a lot more harder for yourself if you're going into a market that you've never done before so a lot of great recruiters you gave me the example of a senior recruiter I'm assuming that they've worked in a particular market for a while or a certain industry that should mean if you're good that when you go out on your own there's going to be people that want to work with you I think that is always a thing that does play out in recruitment if you're good is that people follow the relationship they work with Zach the recruiter but Zach the recruiter works where we have a meeting recruitment agency but it's actually Zach that they really enjoy working with and it's Zach who has the relationship with them so I think if you're starting out strategy wise yeah I think it's going to be extremely hard or You're going to make it harder for yourself if you're going into a brand new market that you haven't done before.

8:48So normally, I think the best bet is going to be staying in the industry and the ecosystem that you've been part of for however many years. Because from day one, even though you may have sort of restrictions on who you can reach out to and the people that you can interact with and work with, you're going to have that subject matter expertise. So I haven't sat down with many generalists. I do think in today's world, I just think having that subject matter expertise, knowledge is power is big in recruitment like having the insights being able to educate consultants say hey Zach you know that you said that you want to be paying this person this much I really think that's probably nowhere near competitive or your interview process is not very good this is why like all of that comes from really being in the detail with the same sorts of companies the same sorts of people so I'd probably say for the most part most people I've met with niche subject matter expertise is going to be the right player for the most part i don't know i don't know loads and loads about recruitment but from friends in the industry and a few people that i've seen it does it feels like an old like 90s nintendo video game doesn't it where you're like step up step up okay i've got my own desk then i've got my own floor or whatever and then i the final boss is i'm going to go away and set my own agency you were talking there about like um situation where there there are probably like rules on what you can and can't do but like staying in that area if somebody's thinking about setting up their own agency have you got any examples of how you can be super smart where you're you're maybe like not treading on the toes of your your ex-employee for me my advice always is like play of a straight bat like i think there there is some people are more than happy not to do that but like for me morally i don't know i feel like it'd be a lot easier just to be building a business doing business not looking over your shoulder and like waiting for maybe something bad to happen or a legal letter to come through or if when those legal letters do come through which they will you know you haven't done anything so in terms of being smart i think the smartest thing that you can do is i've spoken to a lot of people i've heard some horror stories but for the most part if you are really worried about that then it wouldn't be a bad idea to like get your uh like contracts professionally looked at because i've sat down with a lot of people who have built a platform built a business where they help jack the recruiter start his own recruitment business and there's a lot of stuff that recruitment agencies put in contracts that just aren't enforceable but i wouldn't assume that if you are worried about it i don't think it'd be a bad investment to get a profession looked at to then from day one you know right if i do this and i stick to this when the legal stuff comes through a lot of the time there will be there will be businesses that are generally trying to protect their business however when i've spoken to people a lot of the time they just know how that'll affect that person so because i think one of the things that i don't like is when someone's worked at a recruitment business or a business for a long time and they put a lot of energy time just so much into helping and grow that business and they decide to leave and it just gets really emotional and it gets nasty I just don't like that personally I understand it from a business owner perspective it can be emotional you've invested a lot of time money into these people and then they leave but I think for the most part these things play out and if I'm going to be really horrible to Jack who's been in my company for five years and then I'm going to send those illegal letters I don't know I just I just don't like that but to answer your question I'll just get some professional advice on it if you are concerned about it but i'd probably opt to like play it with a safe but um yeah approach it in the right way morally and then just understand legally what they could actually enforce or not i think it could be quite personal i'm just i'm probably more morally like play the long game do the right thing yeah i think that's brilliant advice so then i want to talk about like business development because i think that from from our background we've done some bits together so i guess when when you're when you're sitting down with recruiters what what's the percentage split of like you're amazing at recruitment but you're also amazing at business development yeah we see so we've got an interesting lens on this one from the podcast but then with the training business we're trying to close skill gaps like i said fix those inconsistencies and by far the biggest skill gap is that the sales side so i i'd probably say it's not 50 50 i'd probably say like it's over half of recruiters would probably say that the sales of business development side is the hardest part i think bring this back to like starting a recruitment agency i see this time and time again because we also have like a growing community of solo founders so like they're just solo operators or very small businesses like that is often the biggest problem that they want to help with is like just really being consistent and building their pipeline the sell side and i do think it's probably the most important skill that you want to keep sharpening throughout your recruitment career so the the truth of it is there's a lot of people in our industry that would probably agree and say like that's their weakest part there's a lot that goes into that you can go into that if you want but like there's that is quite multifaceted i'd say so we've done some different stuff together recent thing being helping recruiters conduct discovery i think you guys are quite surprised to hear the amount of recruiters that don't conduct discovery so i think the first part is there is definitely some responsibility here on the company in terms of a lot of recruitment agencies if you were to say what's your sales strategy i don't know how many recruitment agencies if you're to line up 100 would say that like with conviction this is our sales strategy so i think that is part of that is part of it like is there a playbook that recruiters are given uh do they know how to position themselves they know what problems they're solving like are they given a sales process that they can work to a lot of recruiters aren't so i think a lot of it actually can stem from the environment that people end up in i know when i worked in recruitment it was just it was just like learning on the job doing it doing the reps failing forward that there was no sales strategy so i think that a lot of it can stem from there and then it depends on what environment you find yourself in but businesses are set up in different ways where you can have i don't know if you guys have heard the term like 360 recruitment that essentially means that you cover the recruitment process from start to finish where you're out there winning clients uh you're winning the the vacancies you're winning the the client partnerships and then you're working with those clients to then deliver on the vacancies the jobs that you're working on with them you would then go to market speak to talent present that talent like do the whole process but then there's a lot of companies where they've split out the sales function and the delivery function so that also might be um why like there's a lot that goes into it if i'm honest but i do think a lot of it stems from like i i got no like sales development or i had to find that all myself that's where the podcast came from me from where that idea came from i was that person that needed that help i wanted that help i was just sick of like just failing forward and just just trying to figure it out directly in front of prospects like i was like surely there's other people that i can learn from i think there's a lot that goes into it but for sure the sales skill is the biggest skill that people want to keep developing or would say it's not their strongest.

16:19Where do you think people are going wrong then from the stuff that you hear? Like strategy aside, just final note on that. Like I've sat down with a lot of people this year who have realized their team can't confidently articulate their value proposition. That's a pretty big problem when it comes to sales. If they're not confident that when Jack the recruiter gets in front of prospective business, that he's saying something completely different that doesn't quite match up with why companies should be working with them. so like just those things aside where people are sort of going wrong like honestly I don't know if you guys running into this but a lot of people go in search of like silver bullets and like shortcuts and in today's world they're just they're just so like I've sat down with a lot of founders now where they've probably spent more time demoing new products than they have like making sales calls and that's easily done when you're a founder like the distraction piece is is a real thing that's something that i'm always working on if i'm honest like it's so easy not to do the thing even though you know what you need to do so i'd say that is a big part and downstream from that is then it means that they probably don't do things for a consistent sustained period to really see the results so they always maybe you know do things for a couple of days are like oh this isn't working i'm going to do this instead and they never quite get that sort of operational rhythm on the things that really matter that are going to have the impact in the long term so i think when you become a founder i hear this time and time again when you're employed one of the things that you might hate is your managers just really being on you holding you accountable telling you what you need to do your inputs having that all dialed but then when you go out on your own you haven't got that manager over your neck and that is hard for a lot of people because you then have to hold yourself accountable and really the people that i've met who have built a successful agency or going out on their own it's they've just done the boring things consistently every single day that they know work that is just the the truth of it so they're doing the non-negotiables every single day and they're not doing the things that they feel like yes it's good use of my time and it's the right thing to do but really it's just a distraction and it's just getting away

18:25Hishem Azzouz:from doing the thing we are entering a new era of outbound four years in we have a meeting has leveled up our entire offer. That's why multi-billion pound brands trust us. And we've put meetings with Netflix, Spotify, Facebook, even Barcelona Football Club. We've helped close deals up to 950 ,000. We're doing it all. Phone, LinkedIn, email, direct mail, and there's a few weird and wonderful possibilities that we're keeping in our back pocket. So if you're struggling to get in front of the right people at the right time, inquire today.

19:03Hishem Azzouz:do you think there's things that people get wrong when it comes to volume so underestimating the amount of things you have to do to get it going at the start yeah i think that that goes into the the consistency for sure again there's a like a lot that can go into that i think there's you know what where my mind goes is are people even approaching the right types of companies do they know they're the right types of companies that they know they can work with have a good record with are they spending all their time like mapping out people they could call are they the right people like there's a lot that goes into that but I do think a big part of that equation is are they just doing enough reps I think when you're out on your own it is hard I'm definitely guilty of this like just not doing the things that I know I should be doing so I think a big part of it is the consistency probably even more so in today's world I think the people that I've met that have done great numbers and have performed really well consistently are still doing the inputs and they're still doing the numbers I do think that's just a big part of the equation and if we're all being if we're holding up a mirror a lot of recruiters out there and we're being honest are they doing enough input to really warrant the results that they want probably not you must have had conversations with either recruiters that have gone solo and failed or recruiters who have started an agency but it might be the second or third attempt that finally got going so aside from the consistency and kind of the non-negotiables where else do you see recruiters fail when it comes to setting up agencies probably start with a personal note first I'm just a huge believer that if you're performing outside of work you have a great chance of performing inside of work the reason why i bring that up is again like the entrepreneurial journey is hard and if you're in a relationship and that goes absolutely terrible while you've got the business that 100 is going to have an impact on how you're going to get on that business journey in my view anyway then health wise as well like if you just put all your eggs in the work basket in the business basket and then the rest of it just just goes to shit that that is going to have a direct impact so i think i just wanted to highlight that because i think that can often be overlooked so i think that that's the first piece and i do really feel like if you work hard on having those things in at least like an you know an average or a good position maybe some weeks some months they're in a really great position your relationship with your partner or the relationship with you know your health and you're doing the right things that you know put in a good frame of mind i think that'll have a big knock on effect on just longevity and having a successful business.

21:41So I'm definitely a huge believer that just the longer that you stay in the game, the more chance you have of winning the game that you're playing. So I think that can often be overlooked in my view, particularly in like the recruitment environment. I mean, now if you go onto LinkedIn, it's very different. Everyone is saying that you should stop drinking alcohol. I'm sure you run into those all the time, but it definitely has shifted. But I think I wanted to highlight that because I think that can be overlooked and that is definitely going to have an impact on you succeeding and failing or at least having longevity in running a successful recruitment agency when it comes to other stuff that comes to mind in terms of failing or succeeding i'd probably say a pretty a pretty big factor is like what market you recruit in i think sometimes there's a lot of people out there will feel like Like the market that I'm in is terrible and that market over there is going to be perfect.

22:37That just isn't the case. The grass is always going to seem greener. But I think a big thing that I consistently see now is there's just so many more UK recruitment agencies that just serve the US market. That's been like a really big shift. So I think that's something to be mindful of. What market are you in? Is your market just contracting? And it's just been like that for a long time. You've got the market expertise. like sometimes you have to be agile and you have to make those bets and that's something you've got to be mindful of because it might be really challenging to achieve the things that you want to in the market you're in like there might be a ceiling there it's important to be mindful of that because if you do all the things that we've spoken about consistent you've got the sales piece right all the other bits that go into being successful recruitment and you're in an environment you're in an ecosystem you're in an industry where it's you know it's growing and those things match sharp you can guarantee you that that world is going to feel a bit more easier it is it is important to be mindful of that the other thing i think then comes down to like failing or succeeding i don't know if you guys will be i think we may have discussed it in one of our prep calls but for those of you that work in recruitment very typical terminology will be like contingent so if i work with we have a meeting you pay me the recruiter when i've placed a salesperson into your business so ultimately working for free until i get that person as you can imagine that comes with some inconsistencies and that can be quite hard to predict we've got these jobs how many are we actually going to fill so then when we get into like cash flow forecasting that's going to be quite difficult if you're not confident that just is difficult so i think succeeding failing recruitment agencies then are thinking about productizing their service they might work with their companies on an exclusive basis which means there's more commitment we have a meeting is only going to give me their sales jobs no other recruiter i know then that you guys are committed i know that i'm not going to be coming up against three four other agencies every time i'm going out there to the market or maybe you might pay me a deposit to work on this position or positions that's real financial commitment and then when i then get these people or team for you guys you then pay me on contract being signed or those people starting so i bring that up because like what can be really hard is just that volatility of we've just had a really good month this month we don't know where we're going to land so that is a lot of the time that failing or succeeding because there's a lot of recruitment businesses that don't manage their cash flow right you were a recruiter you wasn't you wasn't a business owner so you might have limited you might get limited exposure to cash flow like uh managing the money uh those types of things so that is also going to play a big factor in how you actually work with your customers so yeah i think don't don't overlook like your like your personal world you as an actual person there's more to it than work how your relationships how's your health these types of things not overlooking that definitely thinking about your market are you in a market that's contracting are your market that's growing is there something maybe there where you could be even more niche in the particular the market or can you be a bit agile that could maybe help you get some of those wins that you're looking for uh and then definitely like thinking about how can you get more consistency and that might be how you operate how you transact with your clients which means you can be more confident in your projections which means you know where to spend your money when not to spend your money those things might help loads loads of good stuff in there i think jokes aside recruiters get a bad reputation don't they like and i think definitely probably like 10 years ago even worse though for being maybe bit of jack the lad that kind of thing but i think that when you're when you're going out on your own and obviously just because you're a good recruiter it doesn't mean that you're going to be a good agency owner when you're going out on your own what what are some of the things you can do to maybe break the perception when it comes to being a bit different zigging when other people are zagging how do you get rid of that kind of classic recruiter mentality yeah I mean that those people still very much exist for sure but I probably see things for you like through like rose-tinted glasses like again morally I'm probably someone that's inclined to like see the good in people but the amount of time that I spend with people of course there are going to be people that cut corners these types of things but I think for the most part people that I sat down with they do genuinely want to do a really good job so I think how to be different honestly it it is going to be like the boring stuff and what I mean by that is doing what you say you're going to do really actually leaning into like it's an overused words like authenticity but i think in today's world it's something that really can give you an edge and like leaning into that not trying to lean into i need to be perceived by this by jack in this certain way if i'm a recruiter actually just leaning into like who you are what you're about and i do see that a lot when people leave an agency and then start on their own something i always notice is almost like that the sort of shackles have been taken off they're sharing way more content they're maybe being way more personable they might say things a bit different on their sales calls if i was to listen to them and that's because they're leaning into being themselves and what they're about and owning that versus maybe putting a bit of a mask on when they're employed and working for a recruitment agency because they maybe didn't create the space for jack to really be his true self and be about that so i think the zig and zag and actually is more about just doing like doing the basics really well doing the things that you say you're going to like hey Jack I've caught you a bad time I'll call you at 12pm tomorrow yeah sure no worries and actually making that call and then it's like really then the basics on like doing just great recruitment pieces like giving people feedback really thinking about the experience like being like willing to be honest and go you know what Jack you've just said that this is really important to you but your salary is way too low like being willing to push people about I can own that not being subservient like all those good things and then definitely leaning into like being yourself like people will follow the recruiter because they enjoy working with that person what they bring like i think you should really lean into that versus suppress that and i think sometimes people when they have been employed that's suppressed for whatever reason so when you go out on your own really lean into that and i think that can give you the edge in

29:13Hishem Azzouz:the market nice there's a lot of the early success feels like it's about getting the right team in place and the right incentives in place what have you learned from people who get their own internal hiring right their own internal incentives and motivators right yeah this is something that i'm always thinking about if i'm honest because i think i can do a better job with my team so something that i see time and time again and it's really kicked me into action is i think the best teams the leaders of those teams have really done the hard work on getting clarity on where the hell they're going and i think the companies that maybe struggle to attract or retain their best people may not have that clarity or like the people in those organizations or teams wouldn't say that yeah i know exactly how i fit into this vision and how i fit into this journey there's a few things that i picked up like this year if i'm honest where just quotes are probably being picked up in all different places but things like everyone needs a destination like do people in your team really know like where they're going and does that match up with like what they care about what's important to them I think the other one as well is around does like is your vision big enough as a leader as a team as an organization for it to fit other people's visions and dreams in so I think that's the first piece on the team part is they're very able to clearly articulate this is where we are today is that this is where we're going and this is how you can be part of that and this is this is how you fit into that if you want to be part of that then the next part is protecting that at all costs i'm sure you guys can relate to this on your business journey i've definitely like had to um work through this and that is when i come through the door for you guys you say this is what we're about this is what we stand for this is what's important to us but then i get into that we have a meeting work environment and that doesn't quite match up you said you really care about accountability but i can see all these people pointing the finger at all these other people but apparently that that you're just letting that slide so i think having that clarity on vision but then that filters down from that is your standards and these types of things and then protecting that at all costs and i think the longer that you let that go on then that becomes a new culture right so i think those leaders are willing to to really protect those standards at all costs and sometimes that means putting your your best owner your top performer in check or even letting those people go if they they're breaking those standards i'd probably say they're they're the the big things on like attracting and retaining when it then comes to like driving performance it's all the bits that we've spoken of spoken about like having a clear strategy setting the standards having non-negotiables like all those bits if i'm honest is then that fills down into it but i think that the the common thread is vision real clarity conviction on it and protecting those standards at all costs and then really like it's easy to say this is where we're going what we're doing what we're about but then when you've got like a really high earner or someone that's got a really great track record that maybe doesn't tick all the boxes are you going to be disciplined enough to go you know what jack this isn't right for you even though when you know that they could add 300, 400, 500 grand to your bottom line.

32:32Yeah, I think that's a powerful piece to be able to do that to kind of push people away because they might be the right performer but not right for the culture. Easier said than done.

32:42Hishem Azzouz:Yeah, massively. And we've all heard it before but it is yeah, we've heard all these things before because it's true. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. What about the incentives pieces? Oh, incentives, yeah. Recruitment's a bit mad for incentives and lunch clubs and ibiza trips and i think i think it is famous for those things i'm sure sales is as well you've got the president's club and those types of things but i'm glad you brought that up actually because it's something i see quite a lot when on the surface the recruitment leader will say we've got a sales problem or we've got a business development problem i'm then always curious around do the incentives match up with these people doing the behaviors that you want to see more of and sometimes they don't so the way when you say incentives to me yes you have all those things having these quarterly trips high performer trips but I think when I think about in high performing teams I think the the incentives absolutely match up with like the core behaviors and non-negotiables and what that leader said is important for those for those team and for those people to do and sometimes that can be missed and what I mean by that a bit of an example is a leader might say to me yeah they're not doing as much business development i'd like them to but then i might learn that some of their best performers have got like accounts they've developed over like years and years they're earning really good money and they're absolutely fine just earning that money and really the incentive isn't there for them to go out and win new clients or new relationships because they know what they can earn over here then it's like hang on a minute if if we really want to incentivize this because you want to protect the amount of clients you're working with diversify whatever like should we not maybe think about incentivizing what people get for doing those behaviors and winning that new client should it actually be more incentivized versus i can earn just as much or be as the same if i just stay with my existing clients and i stay complacent so a bit of an example there but i do think it's when i think incentives it's like you're saying that they're not doing this sort behavior will actually do the incentives match up with that.

34:47That's how I think about it because it doesn't always match up. Our book is out now.

34:51Hishem Azzouz:Sales is therapy is available everywhere for people who are looking to get better at communicating, asking better questions, closing more deals and bringing in more clients. Beware it is not for the faint of heart or for closed minded people. You can buy it in all good shops. Links below. I want to get your take on this and see what you've been around in the industry to kind of know how it actually swims. So I got offered exclusivity to they wanted us to work with a recruitment company. But I think part of that like conversation that was going on was like, hmm, here's some tickets to a box at Manchester United.

35:33And I don't really care about football. It feels like recruiters, one of their kind of like party tricks is the relationship builder of let me give you something. Let me show you what we can do for you. What's your take on when it comes to like building relationships? How can you do it effectively without maybe bribery?

35:57Or did that not make you want to work with them then? Manchester United. No, thanks. I'm a discomfort fan. This is something that I do, if I'm honest, like I do think about because it is very overused, like build relationships. Like what does that actually mean? I haven't like proper operationalized that, if I'm honest. It is something that I've thought about. What does that actually mean? I think it might mean when Jack needs something or needs advice when it comes to recruitment or when the problem has got bad enough that he needs help, I'm the person that he calls, or maybe we're texting on WhatsApp, out maybe that's what relationship is or maybe we've spent you know a good amount of face time with each other i honestly i don't know if i'm honest but i don't think you're gonna i don't think you can accelerate that relationship building by doing what you said so i think it then i think it's just about building those relationships just building progress and small bits of progress over time throughout the whole experience of maybe working together or getting to that point where again it comes back to me and you have a conversation I tell you what I'm about you say you know what actually I'll be honest we've worked with a lot of recruiters they've always let me down I pick that up I listen to that and then I really make sure then when I say I'm going to do something I do it you give me an opportunity I make sure I deliver on that I think it's all in those just small moments that all add up over time that really build that relationship I think what can accelerate in today's world is just being willing to really try and get as much face time as possible I do believe that I don't know what you guys think about that but we could absolutely be doing this conversation online but we've all made a commitment like we've all got here today it's hot in this room and we're here we're having a chat and I think I definitely think that in recruitment specific that's definitely something that is probably being lost like you said earlier around recruitment being quite old school i almost think like with ai and technology i think that old school can really give people a lot of edges i've spoke to a lot of people where they've asked directly the the companies they've worked with the other recruiters that you spend x amount with how many of them have you met and a lot of the time the answer to that is i've never actually met jack the recruiter even though we spent six figures with him last year.

38:27So that isn't a silver bullet, but I think if I get in front of Jack, the hiring manager, I learn a bit more about you, what you're about. I learn that you don't, I just have more opportunity to learn more about you as a person, I think. And that's quite vague, but I do think those things, I do think those things add up and matter. Well, let's, I've got a question for you, but I'll tell you a story first. So a recruiter rang me and it was actually a couple of years ago and said, I'm desperate to like, can I come down to the office? And they nagged and nagged. And I said, yeah yeah fine and then i said can i get you a coffee he said no i don't drink coffee and i said well we've got this machine we've got other drinks and he said i'll just have a a glass of cold milk and when he said can i have a glass cold milk i thought there's no way that i'm trusting you in my recruitment process right so so so that's a side note but if someone's saying if we get it all the time can recruiters come and if somebody wanted to come and meet zach i couldn't imagine saying yeah can come and meet but i really want to spend half an hour with the recruiter so the

39:24Hishem Azzouz:advice is that makes me sound a bad person no but do you want to spend 30 minutes with the recruiter that's the problem with anyone right okay so so so the bit is i'm very busy is it worth it to spend 30 minutes with the recruiter maybe maybe not like i get that you want to build a relationship but there's businesses to run so there's going to be so so many busy entrepreneurs out there who are thinking if i had 30 minutes for every recruiter i'd have no time to drive the business forward so for the people that are listening thinking i want to drive face to face how how should they be going about that i think it comes down to how like i get what you're saying but it's like how it's positioned because you you will hear it everywhere the the biggest reason why you guys won't hit your goals is because you haven't got the the best people or the right people in seat so i do think how it's positioned like if you truly believe in 30 minutes you could meet someone that might actually be able to help you with this recruitment problem or help you know maybe help you understand how you can attract better sales people or i've learned that you run assessment days so i might share some things that i know other companies have done to get more out of their assessment days like i think it's how it's positioned and that and that's everything right like i do get that you could say that about people over email saying have you got 15 minutes for a quick call whatever so i think it is how you how you positioned it that again that that isn't that isn't easy like that that takes skill and it comes back to that information piece again like if I've done a good job of like getting context getting information which great recruiters will I should probably be able to understand how can I position this 30 minutes for Jack where he's going to feel like he's going to walk away with stuff because I think if you sat down with a great recruiter in those 30 minutes I'd like to think that you'd walk away and go you know what that's a good use of my time what's going to make you think that is that they didn't just speak about themselves all the time and what they wanted it was actually leaving you with actually there's some really useful bits in there that we could potentially apply to our business because what I always like to remind recruiters like the position I'm in is I don't know how much time you guys spend speaking to other sales leaders that hire entry-level talent into sales roles but I can guarantee you recruiters that just focus on that sales industry and work of organizations like yours probably speak to more than you guys do to being a conduit of that information and going you know what Jack I've actually I spoke to you know someone that works at your business two years ago they said that you run assessment centers i've worked with loads of businesses that did this at their assessment center and they massively got a better hit rate on the people that attended the people that signed up versus attended i don't know like do you know what i mean it's understanding what those things are so i think it's about making it about them is it's about how you position it i'd say i don't think there's any silver bullet on that if i'm honest i think i don't know like i think it's how you position it how you actually do that that's going to be hard to deliver in a nugget.

42:16Hishem Azzouz:We interviewed a guy recently who immediately we were put off, and I want to get your thoughts on this. He tried to set up his own recruitment agency, and after about a year he said, not for me, can I come and work for you guys instead? And just that experience of him going through it and not pulling it off probably put us off. do you think we're wrong to think that it depends what more information that you got and if you think he was and if you thought he's been truthful with your with the answers that he gave you well when i asked you at the top about the output required right to get recruitment going we've got recruitment clients and they're always shocked by like the amount of dials and conversations that have to happen to get really qualified you can meet with anyone but to get a call a third person is going to show up they're always shocked like it's maybe 150 200 dials 30 40 conversations out of that maybe one two meetings if you're lucky that feels like something that's quite overlooked that's just not happening it's just the most part for the most part that is that that input is not happening yeah but why there's not a simple answer to that like there just isn't I think that there's a there's a lot of other things that I could be doing that makes me feel like I could get to that end outcome that isn't doing the thing posting on LinkedIn sending messages on LinkedIn like there's loads of other things that I feel like I could be doing that isn't that but that doesn't so all right well play devil's advocate on this right so I could schedule my LinkedIn posts right so I post them I've got my selfies up there with me doing whatever work i'll play hard and then what do i do now for the rest of my day you're completely right i think that there are limit there's like limited things that you can control in recruitment and one of them is how many calls you can make to prospective clients

44:10so i think it is that a lot of people are distracted and just not doing the thing or convince themselves that actually making all those calls isn't the best use of my time but actually for the most part for most people it probably is i think then there's a p like like genuinely we're coming back to like the strategy piece i'd like to think from getting to know you guys and learn a bit more about your business if i if you hired me i think i'd probably be equipped with why the companies work with we have a meeting or at least i'd like to think i'd be able to articulate that uh like what actually is like an ideal client for us like honestly these things aren't standard for recruitment companies so like you're saying yeah input just isn't there and i'm sure we've run into this actually if we look into it it's because a good chunk of their team actually don't know why they're calling the people that they're calling and they're not that is a big part of being able to do that input you can do that but then you're you're gonna you may feel unprepared you may feel like i'm gonna burn these opportunities i don't know i feel like it actually is taking a step back and actually understanding why am i calling these people in the first place are they companies that i believe that we can help are do they match up with the types of companies that we've had great success with in the past like all

45:24Hishem Azzouz:that all that all that stuff so then i suppose there's links to what you spotted in terms of getting training in front of people probably feels like recruitment has no clear kind of off-ramp straight and you know here's your recruitment training course here's why you're ringing this but is the psychology of someone who wants to move from job to job like there's none of that that's definitely lacking in the companies that have successfully scaled whatever that means or have had sustainable growth whatever that means they've taken those things seriously but a lot of the companies i've spoken to that might be a work in progress or it's not quite where they want it to be or maybe non-existent it's definitely overlooked in smaller companies but then i am consistently surprised when we do a bit of an analysis when we're working with companies how much of that like core go-to-market strategy isn't there and that that makes them doing those inputs hard i mean you can still do it like if you join an organization and they're quite well established they're going to have loads of data that you can go up previous candidates that work with previous clients that work with you could probably smash the inputs there and honestly the companies that have really grown successfully and have got like a quite uh core strategy of like entry level talent they're probably way more up there in in the numbers and the inputs because that's just going to be one of the best ways that these people can practice can learn is by doing the reps so yeah i think there's a few things there but back to back to your recruitment failed recruitment founder person i don't know it honestly like i i personally i'd actually if if i felt like they were being genuine and honest about why they think it failed and why I'm now sitting in front of you and want to work for you guys.

47:09I actually personally quite like that story as a founder, but I don't know what this person said. And if you felt like they'd be in truthful or not. Well, tune in next week to find out. I don't think that'd be massive. I think if I did, if I dug into it and I didn't, and I think they'd be in truthful, what I'd like about that is they, they, they've scratched that itch. They took a bet. They really tried to do it. It didn't work out. This is what I learned from it, Zach. This is the reason why I'm sitting in front of you today. I actually really understood I actually know what I want to be I want to work for an organisation I'm not cut out to do it on my own It was actually really lonely It was hard I miss being part of a team I want to I feel like my learning stopped I want to learn from you Like do you know what I mean It depends if they're If I felt like they're being honest or not They weren't And they were misogynistic weren't they Were they?

47:54Yeah very I didn't hear that bit Yeah I've got the recording I'll show you up It feels like we might enter You know like high ticket closing It feels like This is my prediction for 2030 it feels like the next big thing could be set up your own recruitment agency because realistically you don't need much to set one up you probably need a laptop a phone and kind of you you're ready to get cooking what have you what have you seen the best leaders some of the some of the best people that you've sat down and interviewed and spoke with why why do you think they've been the best when it comes to uh getting on the floor and working with talent well like internally yeah yeah sorry i forget talent is a recruitment word isn't it do like you know what you just said like i think just because it's easy like easy to do doesn't mean like there's still a good percentage of people that probably will find it really hard to be successful like it's hard i do think that's that's a pros and cons of our industry in terms of like the barriers to entry i think you could probably argue the same for like sales i think that is one of the coolest things about our industry like a quick quick side note but I think it's a quite cool story I've heard a lot of stories and I'm sure you guys have of how people ended up in recruitment different walks of life we've heard a lot of failed sports stories loads of people that work in industry and then recruit for that industry like there's no linear path and a lot of people say that they fell into recruitment but again this might just be me uh rose tinted glasses but i actually really like the reframe of our industry gives a lot of people an opportunity that maybe other industries wouldn't like i had this story the other day it's so classic uh recruiter but this person unfortunately had a very tough start to life found themselves homeless then found themselves in circles where they were selling drugs basically one of the most consistent clients about who they were recruitment leader same time every week Thursday big session and this recruitment leader maybe saw something in this person and he said and this this sort of question will happen a lot for people in recruitment they might go Jack have you ever thought about recruitment one thing led to another he then had a meal with that person tried to get him in got an interview didn't end up working for that company but then got open to recruitment entered the recruitment industry and then he's been in it ever since and it has his own business so the reason why i tell that story is like yes okay high ticket closing could be similar there you could just start something remote for sure um but it doesn't mean everyone succeed but i think that that is also the cool thing about it that a lot of people can be given an opportunity where maybe other industries couldn't give them that if you're willing to back yourself and work hard and learn and do those things bit of a side note but i just wanted to say that in terms of the recruitment leaders that i've met like honestly i feel like something that sort of stands out again it sort of is adjacent to like vision standards met a really impressive leader really stood out to me where I've met a lot of people that worked for this leader who have now gone out and set up on their own and they spoke really highly of this guy and I think what really came across and what he said to me that really stuck with me was when they were growing and they scaled to like over 100 people he said confidently as they were going on that growth journey he could tell you what people's individuals drivers were why why they're doing the job what their main motivators are and i do think when it comes to getting the most out of talent leadership but i'm sure you guys on this journey as well it's something that i'm definitely i feel like i could improve that is like really getting crystal clear on why is Jack showing up to work and really not getting the surface level answers to that but actually really understanding what motivates the team what motivates those individual on an individual basis I think the best leaders will truly understand that and be willing to do legwork to sort of dig into that and unpack it so then they know how to then use that to that person's advantage like if they're saying that this is where they want to be then that person can use those individual drivers they've learned about that person to really make sure that it all makes sense it matches up with why they're doing what they're doing that is personal and it's something that i think really does take work like i'm sure you guys have had it but sometimes one-on-ones with people can be difficult you get surface level answers and you've got to try and it is hard to like really i think sometimes a lot of people maybe don't think about this stuff like why am i doing what i'm doing i'm just here to do a job that's fine but definitely like a recruitment environment it's hard like why are you here what are you motivated by what actually are your drivers and I think the best leaders have done the hard work and understanding that on an individual basis and then they use that to best motivate that person again back to incentives and all of that matches up and I think that that definitely helps great leaders get great performances and you and you've you've mentioned it a few times in terms like the self-development piece so the best people that you've sat down with and spoke with what what are typically the soft skills hard skills that you're like if you can nail these you'll probably be all right yeah I think I haven't sat down with a high performer that doesn't say they can always be learning more always improving I think that sort of goes hand in hand in the sort of sales recruitment industry so skills that come to mind I'd say personal responsibility.

53:35Is that a skill? No. Yeah, it's like a stoic skill, isn't it? Of like, it's my responsibility. Ownership. Ownership, yeah. I do that. These are in no particular order, but I think if you're always pointing the finger and that finger isn't pointing yourself, you're going to have it hard. The market's shit. That's why I'm doing this. Or my manager's shit. That's why I'm this. I think you're always going to find it hard. So that definitely comes to mind. I think, is curiosity a skill? Yeah, definitely. That's a huge one for me. I think the sort of, that quote that we've all heard, knowledge is power, like honestly, that is a great recruiter is so great at gathering information, asking questions, using that information, taking that into the next conversation.

54:27like being curious is like a big one for me i then think listening huge one something that i definitely was terrible at at the start i was listening to we're in the process of putting all of our podcast episodes into our sort of ai training products due to be released soon and uh i was listening to one of my earlier episodes painfully and i used to say yeah yeah that amount of times that the transcript picked up another speaker oh and it's two people the reason why i bring that up is because i always remember this lesson on for the um the guy matt who i worked with in recruitment where i'd ask a question and then i'd jump in to sort of answer that i'm sure you guys seen this when you're training entry level but that yeah so listening is like huge and the ability to ask a question and then just shut up and leave space for the other person to speak is like a massive skill that i think great recruiters get really good at and something you can quite easily become complacent with so i think that that definitely springs to mind ownership curiosity listening i mean resilience for sure i think yeah having that ability to sort of bounce back being able to reframe things and say actually yeah okay that is terrible that's just happened but it's not the end of the world we go again that sort of mentality is going to be needed then i'm giving you all the cliche ones here growth mindset is in there for sure i think that's maybe part of the resilience piece this went wrong what can i learn from it again ownership's in there so it's all those types of bits i'd say i think if you're that's why i think personal development sales entrepreneurship there's there's a lot of there's a lot of crossover

56:24Hishem Azzouz:you i saw you post uh the other day and you mentioned it before briefly this thing of uk recruiters wanting to break into the us and i think that's the number one thing recruiters reach out to us for really yeah to say can you help us break into the us Oh, that makes sense. I want to outsource that. I want to outsource it. And it's probably heavier lifting, I would say, than you need in the UK because of the connection rates and stuff. But what have you seen from, well, number one, do you think that works to say, let's just focus just on the US? Yeah, it 100 % works, yeah. Okay, so then what do you think people need to do and understand to make that happen?

57:00The reason why I say 100 % works is I've just seen enough evidence now or enough people. I'm seeing more and more recruitment companies that are based in the UK that just do the US. so like there's enough evidence there to go if you get this right it can definitely work i think a lot of people do view it as again like a silver bullet on all their problems it isn't quite that i think the perfect way to frame it for anyone listening is it's just as hard as the uk market or any other market but the financial return can be literally like 5x the perfect example like an example here would be uh if i place an sdr into your business let's just say the basic salaries 30k if i did the exact same skill set in a particular state in the u.s that might be fifty thousand dollars seventy thousand dollars twenty percent of 30k twenty percent of 50k can do the maths but um i think a lot of people have experienced same skill set working just as hard but the end financial return is like much larger so i think that that's why there's a lot of pull there there's other factors into that which is there's always different stats floating around but consistently you'll probably hear that there's maybe like 28 30 000 recruitment agencies in the uk i think there's less recruitment agencies in the whole of us if you think population size of us versus population size of uk recruitment agencies you can see why people may feel like it's not as competitive yeah uh so there's a few like pulls out and then also staffing it's viewed differently over there from the conversations i've had in terms of it being a bit more respectable i don't think the perception is lads or girls from essex that don't have many brain cells working in recruitment and like the perception you said earlier so i think that there's like just a few different bits there that i think also make it appealing for people that have always done the uk market where margins are getting squeezed it's competitive than ever even though how hard they work with all these things doing the right thing they're still banded with all these people that ruin it for them and those bits in terms of like go to market over there i think the big thing that i see is sort of built adjacent to like volume is people like sort of dabble with it i think people that really make the us work is like they go all in on it that's definitely what i've seen time and time again so you might i don't know if you've had this you might have uk recruitment agencies that do the uk market and yeah guys can you just help us break into the us we're going to keep doing this and like can you just help us like just start building some of that i do think if you're gonna go to the us then you need to have a person or people that are entirely focused on that and they say no the business that that isn't uh the us or if that's their end goal then i think the other bits that matter there's a lot of stuff that that's the same again volume is going to be important the amount of conversations you're having then you're getting information then you can use that information to go to market all that sort of stuff so i think inputs are going to just be important actually doing the recruitment stuff is going to be very similar where uk we're getting a bit particular here but typically what people say to me is in the us there's a lot more there's less agencies that's a fact but there's a lot more like just overall large organizations which means that we have a meeting might work with a u.s staffing firm that does all their recruitment from sales people to your admin person like they just do everything so maybe deemed as more like generalist whereas part of uk recruits because it's so competitive part of their differentiator will be jack all i do is speak to sdrs with two years experience in manchester like that's all i do every single day every single week that's what a bit of like i know the best people so taking that type of approach to the us that that isn't typical so what that means is that can almost be like a complete light some people might have experienced go oh my god that's amazing like you're a specialist like you would probably just never have that in in the uk so i think having that niche goes a long way what i've also consistently heard is getting over there can have a big impact i think that can again back to relationships but I think getting over there going to conferences meeting people that you've spoken to face to face that can really accelerate things like I've sat down with a lot of people over the last six months where some of their biggest wins have come from going to industry conferences meeting people face to face and then doing all of that sort of stuff and then off the back of that it's just it's just it's accelerated conversations with people maybe it just shows like intent oh this isn't just another uk recruiter trying to work the us like they're here yeah i mean there's a bit of commitment there that they've gone over so honestly there's a lot of the same stuff and then you have to work to the cultural nuances there are cultural nuances but again going over there you can understand the cultural nuances better especially if you start meeting people in maybe the states that you end up focusing on like you can go to the the most popular barbecue places you can speak to people about that and like pick up on those bits so yeah i'm i'm not surprised a lot of people are being like it's really appealing for a lot of people for those sort of first couple of reasons that i said but i think if you're putting all that hard work in and then you're seeing the financial return like that's just a big motivator for people but a lot of the go-to-market stuff i'd say is fairly similar from my conversations for the most part this has been an incredible history i I think there's been so many takeaways and I think that anybody that's, even if you're working in recruitment, like you're not even thinking about like setting up your own agency.

1:02:48I think there's so many lessons to take away from this. So thank you so much. If people want to get in contact, listen to you, work with you, how do they find you? Best place, LinkedIn, Hesham Azuz. And then if you are a podcast listener and want to learn how recruitment entrepreneurs or high performing recruiters achieve what they've achieved, then you can listen to my podcast, which is called the recruitment mentors podcast beautiful thank you so much thank you awesome