The Reason You Quit Right Before It Starts Working: Holly Matthews

0:00Holly Matthews:I help people be their weirdest selves so that they can feel more happy and less crappy. What has your relationship been with rejection? I think because I had a level of confidence in my ability. I have a relentlessness. I believe you just keep going and find your route. Like there's a way. If they can do it, I can do it. What do you think is going to happen if you're successful? What's the fear around that? We think we're not scared of success, but we are. We're often as scared or if not more of the success than the failure. My husband died of brain cancer and he said before his second brain surgery, I've done everything that I wanted to do.

0:37Holly Matthews:I've lived my life exactly how I wanted to live it and I regret nothing. This is why I champion so hard Be Your Weirders Self because when you live like that, you're untouchable. That was the first time I experienced like really bad trolling. And one guy like messaging saying, oh, your husband's got brain cancer, boohoo, bring out the tiny violence and stuff like that, right?

1:02Holly, welcome to the podcast.

1:04Holly Matthews:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. You made it. You made it. I made it. Let's not tell everyone about how late I was. We'll put that in the director's car. It was so smooth, wasn't it? Yeah. Didn't I just got glided in? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We're going to kick off with a big open question. Do it. Who are you and what problem do you solve? Oh, good. Lovely question. So I'm Holly Matthews. I am a self-development coach, or I change that up. Sometimes I say intuitive psychology coach because they also have that as well, just to see whichever room I'm in. I'm the founder of the Happy Me Project, which is a membership community of odd bods, weirdos, and lovely people just trying to feel their best selves and be confident.

1:48Holly Matthews:I've written two books. I'm a best-selling, award-winning author, which still feels absolutely crazy. former tv actress and i help well i help largely women but also i don't really it's i'm going to just scrap that i help people to be their weirdest selves so that they can feel more happy and less crappy whether that is in business or life in general nice so if i'm an oddball or a weirdo what symptoms might I be facing in my day-to-day life where the the happy me project might be perfect for me could support you well you might be feeling symptoms of feeling too much or not enough that's often the reason people come to me or they often come to me when there is a crossroads in their life so in the membership itself so I've kind of got two audiences membership itself is everyday men women some of them maybe entrepreneurs some of them aren't in my coaching one-on-one space that's predominantly entrepreneurs so kind of two different spaces within the happy me project membership you might be feeling those things too much not enough um hitting a transition in life so it could be an age transition often for women it tends to be hit 30 hit 40 men as well but a little bit older i think and they or their kids have left home or they've had a breakup or a job loss, some transition in life, and they're going, what the hell do I do next?

3:16Holly Matthews:That's often when people come to me. Or they are burnt out, anxious, don't know what to do next. Maybe they've gone through a bereavement. Often people come to me through grief-related stuff, and they're looking for tangible tools and a community that's got their back, and that's what they get in that space. And then in my coaching practice, one-on-one coaching, where I'm working with entrepreneurs, often it's people who are usually women but not exclusively um often i find that men prefer to talk to women and want a different perspective but it's usually confidence it's usually the fear of being seen and they know what to do in their gut they know which way they want to go but there's something holding them back and it might be as stupid as worrying about what their neighbors are going to say or the people they used to go to school with or a parent and I work with them on that but within that space I also do support them in a more mentorship role in terms of like what are the like actually how do you get seen press and speaking and writing and stuff like that so depending on what they're looking for that's what I would do with them as well.

4:26So when you look back at young Holly what were the first signs when you look back now you were definitely going to do this with your life?

4:33Holly Matthews:I was like I always look back and say like I was always that weird I was a weird kid like my parents will say like oh she was like unusual my dad's a welder my mum worked in a bank like I didn't come from like stage school like a normal working class home with my dad was a union man's shop steward everyone in my family's clearly clearly talkers and always stand up for the underdog and I think that's something that was very ingrained I from about I'm going to say six or seven got interested I learned that acting was a job you could be in the telly like that sounds great and you get to play pretend forever and then I only remember the name of this recently right my parents sent me to an acting class a local acting class at the live theater in Newcastle and the name of that class was sit and fidget which as you can probably tell is is very apt and all the kids there were like all neurodivergent and like bouncing off the walls and so I went there and I realized like oh this is what you do and then typical probably typical entrepreneurial brain we take it to like the nth degree because we can play it out in our minds so then I was like well how do you become an actor like what do you do and then at like seven or eight I was talking about going to RADA the drama school in London which is very expensive for very posh rich people so at the time I was like this fancy drama school I'm gonna work with Steven Spielberg obviously like you know I'd seen 80 so then I'm obviously gonna work with him and I remember like even I remember going to uh to Florida very lucky to it was like this parents paying it on the never never bless them forever took us to Disneyland and um I remember going to Planet Hollywood and getting the napkins and just writing my name, Holly Wilkins at the time, and my home phone number, just in case Steven Spielberg came in and just wrote, I'm an actress on it.

6:31Holly Matthews:I was like, he's going to go, holy, like, look who this is. And then when I was 11, I heard that there was a TV show that was going to be in Newcastle. Now, some of your listeners, viewers will know of Biker Grove, which was already established, right? That all had been there. I don't know why I didn't really think about that. I think I just thought oh they've got their people now like I didn't mean you know I was young and then there was going to be this show in Newcastle called Keysiders which was supposed to be like the Geordie EastEnders it didn't really come off really so don't know what happened there but because that was in the local paper you know before we really hit hit the internet that was talked about and there was like a phone number for the casting people it's really basic my dad rang and said look my daughter's interested in tv stuff is there any acting parts they said no but they gave him the address of Biker Grove.

7:19Holly Matthews:So I wrote them a letter, right? And I honestly thought for years that this was like an urban legend. Like, did I actually write the letter? But my parents found it. I'm astonished we had a computer at the time because I was convinced I'd written it in crayon or something because I was 10. But they found this letter and it's so sweet. And they put it on a canvas for my 30th birthday to remind me of how I kind of started. and it just says like dear cast and director my name is holly and i'm an actress um because i was just a firm in it knew who i was i've got green eyes which i've done in green and brown hair and i've done it in brown help them out you know because there's no foreground and then i've just put um i'd like to apart and bake a growth uh stating exactly what i wanted and i'm not shy one bit and at the very bottom I've just put p.s please write back quickly and then like loads of exclamation marks and it was written in comic sans as well because like I know a designer dies when you use that but at the time that was like fun that looked like you were dead fun didn't it they got me in for an audition and that was kind of how my acting career started I didn't get the part actually that's not strictly true I auditioned six times didn't get the part and then about six months later they called and they said that they'd written a part in for me so wow that's how i got it but i genuinely that's still how i do business now like not in comic sans but i promise maybe i'll bring it back yeah but um i still just ask for things and people are astounded when they're like how did you get that and i'm like i just messaged them i said can i do that and they said yes it happens more than you realize people just are scared to ask that question because it's embarrassment of if they say no.

9:03That's why you're here because we asked you.

9:05Holly Matthews:Yeah, well, exactly. Like, I can't tell you how many people say to me, oh, I was so nervous about asking and I'm like, why? Like, nine times out of ten, I'll probably say yes if I can make it work. Like, have a great conversation, different people, different audience. What's not to like? Zach Thompson, do you ever get sick of calling kebab houses and nanas when you're trying to speak to qualified decision makers? I do. Well, I think I might have found the solution. 98 % correct qualified data which means when you're cold calling you're always going to be speaking to the right person Do you know what the solution is?

9:39It can't be Prospio, can it? Prospio, let me spell it for you P-R-O-S-P-E-O dot I-O If you're looking for great qualified data then you know what the solution is Prospio.io So when you look back now on yourself wanting to be on stage wanting to be working for steven spielberg what what was it that you were hoping to get obviously there's money there's fame there's football outside that what was you hoping you

10:08Holly Matthews:needed i don't think it was as clear when i was that i liked doing the acting it was fun looking back now having got to know myself i recognize that i always had a feeling of being being like an alien like i always knew i was different to my peers i just did and that might sound egotistical but it wasn't I think it's knowing now that I've ADHD I know that there is certain traits of that that do set you apart within a certain space and I was always seen as a little bit different the creative one I was drawing or writing poetry was like really deep kid singing and and I was always kind of seen as that creative one and I think actually looking back what I realized is that especially with like social stuff friendships and things I often found it really difficult to connect with peers when I started going to the acting class I learned how to essentially how to cosplay as a neurotypical person and I only know that now looking back that I was kind of I realized that if you act like this this is the response you get which is why I'm a huge advocate in fake it till you make it and I know people get really triggered by that but I'm telling you as an actor it changes lots of stuff and I'm not saying fake it forever there's internal work to be done too but at that age I learned if I act like this people respond to me like this and they clap and they applaud and they like me so I think that it was a feeling of connection with people and the site that you know I was basically playing games so I enjoyed that as I got older I've recognized that for me for a long time that was like this mask and it worked really well it was effective but it's only effective to a point because then eventually you hit that kind of like internal wall nobody else would ever have noticed that because they were enjoying the the part i was playing but then as i got older i realized actually you have to bring in the the full side of you and that's scarier isn't it so i think even when people aren't actors there's a level of masks that we we have in our lives and it's often only as you get older or real shit happens in your life and you go i can't be asked to do that anymore i'm not not going to people please I'm not going to do that and I think for me as a kid I love creativity for me that's that's where I get my energy being able to you know you guys are you said at the beginning curious people you're interested I'm the same I was once asked when I went to an audition for a drama school why I wanted to be an actor and my answer was I'm really fascinated by people and I like to walk in their shoes and I realized there's such a connecting thing between me acting and me as a coach, I love people.

12:53Holly Matthews:I'm fascinated by it. Why are we here at this table? We've all got different lives, different upbringings. But at this moment, we're sat at this table together. That fascinates me, understanding how we got here, what we did and what we're doing. And I think now as an actor, I would learn about the character, get to know them, get to know what made them tick, and then I would pretend to be them. Whereas now, I get to know my clients, I work them and get to think, you know, what makes them tick. I just don't pretend to be them unless we get really close. And I might try a little bit as long as I get permission to do that imitation of them.

13:29Holly Matthews:But I think that's what, you know, the common thing, like the sort of connecting thing is I'm fascinated by people and I'm just interested in why we do things. And I really have this driver that's like, have this like saying in my head, just like never leave a man behind. Like saying, that's me. like I can't I see brilliant people you guys do as well right see brilliant amazing people who aren't doing what they could be doing because they're scared or they lack confidence or some dickhead they used to know made them feel bad about themselves and they've not really worked on that yet and shake them and go it's gonna be all right like just just let it be and and that to me really drives me to find different creative ways to find solutions for them you can you can tell from a few things that you've said, the underdog like sticking up, that's like very much learned behavior.

14:22It's very apparent, Holly, that you've obviously done like the self work. You strike me as somebody that has zero or limited, like limiting beliefs. I guess, how true is that?

14:36Holly Matthews:No, it's not true. I mean, I've done the work 100%. Doesn't mean they don't come up, right? I just know that I can spot them quicker. I can deal with them quicker. I understand where they've come from. I know what part of me that's prodding. Mine were, so because I, you know, come from a normal area in the Northeast, it wasn't a particularly wealthy area. I didn't grow up around wealth. When I was 11, suddenly I'm the kid on the telly. Everyone knows you're making money. I didn't even have the money. My parents were smart enough to put it aside for me and I didn't really get it. But from being that age, you know, I went into that thinking everyone's going to be really nice like like the fact that I was on TV but of course they didn't because kids are assholes right so they they weren't nice about it and I that was quite a shock to me and you know suddenly everybody's talking about you've got money and I felt this real pressure you know I would hear things like you're making more money than my mum or like you know comments from teachers adults around me it wasn't it wasn't just kids so what it developed was the belief for me that, and also I've got a younger sister.

15:46Holly Matthews:She's incredible. I'm not just saying that she's incredible. She's not the same as me. We have different things that we like. And I hated that feeling of being the older sister and the one that's on TV. People would come up to us as, when they met my mom and dad, they were friends with him and they'd say, which one's the star? Imagine how that felt to my sister, that I was on this pedestal and I hated it because she's amazing. And it was a horrible experience. And what that did and what the kind of having this pedestal when you don't want it because you're a kid and you're a teenager and you just want to be the same as your mates.

16:21Holly Matthews:It made me shrink and it made me develop these limiting beliefs that if I'm successful, I make everybody else feel uncomfortable. If I make money, everybody's going to hate me. So for me, what would happen is I would make money and then I'd sabotage the shit out of everything. I would I almost had this like upper limit that where I'd be like I can have that much but then no then you have to not do anything because everybody's gonna and it wasn't conscious and I think that for me finances wise still comes up I'm much more comfortable with money than I've ever been but there's a sense of and I think a lot of people who've not come from money will understand the hoarding of money the fear of it and letting go of it but obviously in business world you have to you know you have to have that flow of money but that was scary for me and I think going from being an actor into being a businesswoman that didn't sit comfortably with me be a businesswoman for me my actor brain is looks like somebody in suits like they wear a suit and they're professional and they went to university and they studied business that was my belief obviously we know that's not true right thankfully um but that was kind of yeah that was kind of in my mind for a long time it took me a while to go actually you are a businesswoman and to be honest when I really owned it wasn't even fully fully that long ago it was during COVID and um a BBC someone messaged me said BBC journalist is looking for somebody to go on the radio businesswoman who's doing well during the pandemic I was like okay I mean I'm literally without joking I'm nearly on the BBC once a week so it wasn't like a weird thing so I've emailed the woman said look I'm up for coming on if you want to chat about it um I've done pretty well out of it because it was already set up online this is what I'm doing she came back to me and said we're looking for a businesswoman and I was like massively triggered because I didn't really embody that I kind of always did the whole I'm just winging it don't know what I'm doing kind of feeling which it's not really true in any more sense than all of us are winging it and I stopped myself felt the trigger felt the limiting beliefs coming up like maybe not good enough as people have went to university you're not a proper business you know all that was coming up and I was like you've got a limited business you make money you literally do everything yourself you pay yourself you bring you pay other people you are a businesswoman like thank you and i went back and said that and she did backtrack and was a bit uncomfortable and what she meant was she wanted an accountant or something like that okay say that then um but the limited belief still come up i think i was like liking it to you know when you do this work on yourself it's like whack-a-mole isn't it it's like they come back up and you gotta just you gotta work on them again or maybe even better analogy might be being a gardener they're like weeds they come back up sometimes and sometimes they're wearing disguises and you think that's not the same thing you're like oh shit it's the same thing it's my inner child's being triggered because she doesn't feel good enough so I don't think we're ever like done I think we get to the next level and then it's scary again and every time we go up a level and we're more exposed it feels scary again and those that stuff comes up and i think it will be always the case so no sadly i wish i could see that you just like do the self-development work and then you get a certificate at the end and you're like that's enough pain for us all now that's enough growth we're done that's lovely but doesn't really work does it i think it's a bit disappointing but it is that's where it is you're cured you're ready for it after your part of the pageant.

20:08It'd be beautiful.

20:10Holly Matthews:It'd be beautiful. Probably not as exciting. No, no. You spoke about self-sabotage there. It doesn't come up a lot on the podcast because I think it puts people in a place of vulnerability to admit that. I guess how comfortable would you be maybe painting a picture about that? Fine with it. I think for me, self-sabotage, I think it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because you don't know you're doing it in the moment. It's only in retrospect often and that you notice it and you start, if you do this kind of work, you start to spot patterns of it. So it happens less so now, but I think for me, it often comes with, I, and this is definitely a consequence of being ADHD, that my brain is wired like everything is important, which means nothing's important.

20:58Holly Matthews:I always think of it like, you know, when you have a highlighter pen and you're supposed to just highlight the bits that are important. my brain's highlighting everything so then you're like this like how do i do all of this stuff so self-sabotage usually comes up for me when i'm about to go to a next level on something and it's like my brain panics there'll be more work to do there you'll have too much to you're going to be overwhelmed and it's like i can feel myself doing behaviors that aren't helpful so um not taking care of myself enough so for me that often manifests in just not eating just forgetting to eat altogether and not drinking enough kind of not like obsessing over like a one piece of work but to the detriment of everything else but it's self-sabotaging behavior because it's not actually effective and that usually comes up when something so when my last i've had two books that have come out um my last one i definitely was i could feel some self-sabotage happening that was only last year i could i could feel it happening it was still difficult to stop it and the only way i found is to have the right people around you that give a shit they're your people they're your community they're not they're not judging you they have to spot you and then they can go you're what's this what's happening here what's happening how can we help and i do think you need your community for that and that can really support you with those behaviors I think often it's other people that spot it before we do at least the pattern of it but as you say it's uncomfortable isn't it to admit because in this world we all want to pretend it's all shiny and it's we don't mess up and but I think it's better we say it so if if you were your own client in that moment yeah what what would you where would you start I would start by less brain dump what's going on like where do we want to be like what we so in the example of my book where what do you want to do with this book like what would you what be the ideal okay I would like it to be a successful book I would like to know that it hits the top five on Amazon was my kind of because annoyingly and brilliantly the first one went straight to number one in all the books which is amazing and I didn't I'm just going to say I didn't recognize that as a win, which is really bad.

23:21Holly Matthews:Bear in mind, there's a whole chapter in my book on celebrating your wins. And my editor did go, can you read that chapter again? But the reason I didn't is because there's a lot of self-published work that we see in our space where everybody's a number one bestseller on Amazon. And I don't mean to diminish that. And I'm really not. Writing a book, any book, it's a big deal, right? It's a legacy moment. But I deliberately chose to do it for a kind of old-fashioned publisher, you know, big publisher, because I wanted that tick. There was something in that that I was like, I want that. And I know I can do it that way and it would be quicker.

23:57Holly Matthews:Probably, potentially, there might be benefits financially in doing it that way, but I didn't want it that way. So when my editor was like, yes, it's just gone straight to number one. It's like in every category. It almost didn't register that that was actually a big deal because I was like, well, I've seen loads of people do that. forgetting that they're doing it in an obscure category selling the book for a pound and like it's gone to number one I'm not again I'm not it's smart right I'm not saying that's not a good thing I'm just saying like I almost just didn't recognize that and so the pressure of that book did really well it won some award then the second one it's just that the novelties wore off a little bit the kind of newness of doing a book it's like a bit of graft loved it like like it's a great book it's on confidence but what was hilarious was like I was having to use the skills that I'd put the tools in there to support myself with that so um yeah I could so essentially it's talking about self-sabotage how I would coach somebody I would be getting somebody so if it was me in that instance and I'm going right what do you want to happen where I wanted the book to be as successful as the first book if not better uh to see those numbers to have the option potentially to do another book if I wanted to and um yeah that was in my mind so if it was I would be saying okay so how can you get support what do you need to do to make that happen what are the actual activities let's get that out your head because when it's in our head all it's going to do is swim back around and then stress us out more we need to put it somewhere whether it's on paper did you I mean I'm a pen and paper kind of person there's something definitely that is more connecting with that but i would be literally get it out get out of your head let's look at what needs to be done then let's look at what weird timeline you've given yourself that makes no sense whatsoever and you're stressing yourself out with and nobody else has asked you to do that you know when we just put like a weird that's got to be done by then no one else knows it but we've put it in our head and then we're absolutely beating ourselves up about a fictional date we've put in our head nobody ever said we had to do what's that about so I would be looking at any of that kind of stuff where are you putting weird expectations on yourself what could be happening outside of this that is making it worse so always go back to basics first are you sleeping eating drink have you been outside like have you spoken to anybody that you like today or like all of the basics when that's not working well nothing else is going to work well so as basic as that is and And as boring as that stuff is, I would also be looking like what else is impacting the potential for you to start sabotaging.

26:35Holly Matthews:Then I would be looking at, OK, what are the limiting beliefs? What do you think is going to happen if you're successful? What's the fear around that? Because we think we're not going to we think we're not scared of success, but we are. We're often as scared or if not more of the success than the failure. It's easier to admit I'm scared of failing or whatever, but scared of success is a bit embarrassing. isn't it like that feels a bit it's just not what because we all say well I want to be successful I want to you know do all this stuff but there is part of us that that elevates everything people are going to watch then and and I think there's a fear we're often as scared of that I think it was um Brene Brown that talks about something called joy foreboding have you heard her talk about that and it's the fear of essentially the fear of joy because when we have joy and we have happiness there's then that feeling of well it might be taken away and that feels horrible so joy foreboding is like almost we're happy as sitting in the negative where it's better the devil you know so the idea of basking in your joy that's so vulnerable like we don't admit that but it's like it's so vulnerable i'm so happy like part of us is going but what about the next bad thing like we want to protect ourselves don't we so i think i would be with a client who self-sabotage in that area I would be challenging behaviors I'll be challenging what that we'll be looking at what's the underlying thing we might even do some work on in a child work like because we're all kids inside right we're the little kid self is still there I'll potentially be looking at that like what's stopping this happening what would be great about this happening what's the fear about and how can we you know help you with the fear around that So for me, sometimes the fear can be because I am really bad with maths, I would 100 % be, if I could be asked it or it mattered, I would be diagnosed with dyscalculia.

28:36Holly Matthews:Like it's not a little bit. At school, it was a real issue and it's not a little bit. I really, really tried when I was an adult. I went back and tried to do like a pre-GCSE maths course and I just couldn't do it. I struggled so bad. so because of that whenever money's coming up numbers are coming up i my default is just hoard money just have it just make sure there's loads of like numbers there and if that's happening then that's good money's coming in and not more is going like that's fine as long as that and then i have an accountant who a few years ago i just went you just need to do more because like i'm working too hard here and I don't like doing all of this but I think there is for me and has been a worry that success comes more numbers which sounds so silly to say but it comes more numbers more tax stuff more stuff that just feels like work I don't want to do and that it can be something that's that's realistically that's ridiculous there's an accountant that can do that and there's systems in place that can support me but it could be something like that that's holding somebody back from their success but they haven't really addressed it because like something like that's quite embarrassing as an adult to go I really struggle like it's not a little bit I you know I used to when I was at drama school I used to work in a pub where they'd um they didn't have like they had like an old-fashioned till and they just expected me to add up the numbers I swear I'd be like panicked I used to write them down in my hand like all the day and they would have their pints would be like i mean it was cheap obviously like at the time three pound 77 why why can't it just be like round numbers i can work with them yeah so i think yeah that is a roundabout way of answering your question but i think with for a client i'd be laying it all out on the table looking at their fears looking at what beliefs are what are you telling yourself as well you know the stories are the main thing what are you telling yourself about this what happens if you're successful?

30:39Holly Matthews:What happens if you fail? What's going on for you? Our books are now open. If you are sat there wondering where your next sale is going to come from, wondering why your pipeline isn't full of meetings with qualified decision makers, look no further because the We Have a Meeting team has got you covered. Just go to www.wehaveameeting.com. Speaking of books, if you are looking to get better at sales, communication and making more money, our book sales is therapy is available on amazon now let's take one of those stories so we've all got children when you think about confidence a little toddler stripping off at the barbecue and jumping in the paddling pool not bothered about being chubby or what confidence is something that you've got straight away right yeah you do so where does that go why do you suddenly one day you wake up and i i'm more aware of myself and that confidence has maybe vanished a bit well i think there is an inherent thing in us that is ingrained in our you know old part of our brain that needs to fit in like we're a social species we do need each other so the part of us that needs to fit in we know that you know our ancestors would we wouldn't be here if they hadn't grouped together to stay safe so there is like a biological thing that we know we need to stick together in a group we need to have a tribe we need to be part of something so our brain anytime it feels like it is potentially out of the group and that could be such a it could be somebody's you know saying oh that's a weird outfit or you've done that funny or like you've drawn that's a weird picture it could be something so incidental especially when you're a kid because everything's much bigger something that was said to you as a child could be quite traumatic but as an adult you'd be like it's not a big deal so we minimize actually how hard that was for like six year old us it was much harder then because we were kids we didn't have the brains we have now and that can happen and then our brain sees that the same like sees that as like a life or death thing because being pushed out of the group is life or death so that like old part of our brain sees that as really serious and really awful so what can happen is we have these experiences which yeah as adults we look back and go it wasn't that big a deal but it does feel like it and our that part of our brain our subconscious like that's scary to to you know to our nervous system that feels like we're being pushed out people might not like us we might not be enough and all of that so we develop these little stories and then because our brain doesn't want to feel that stuff again often what happens especially with teenagers we start trying to fit in we start trying to be palatable to people be the good boy the good girl we try to find a way that makes us be in the group and it's only really once we get older and you know as i say i work with particularly women because i think societally we tend to people please a little bit more but not exclusively where they get to an age they don't know know what their opinions are because they've spent their whole life trying to mold themselves into what they think other people need them to be.

33:44Holly Matthews:And I say to people, and this is uncomfortable for them, if you are a people pleaser, you end up being a liar and a letdown. And I know that's uncomfortable and harsh. I know that's not the driving force. The driving force is you want to be kind and we want to fit in and we want to be loved. But you end up being a liar and a letdown because you don't ever, you're lying because you're not being your truest self. You're not being your weirdest, most authentic self. you are molding yourself to fit the scenario that you are in and no calling it lying is a bit harsh because you're not doing it consciously like that really or you might be a little bit and you're let down because often when you're people pleasing you end up saying yes to everybody to everything and inevitably you let people down in some way so I think that's what starts to happen to people and then that erodes your confidence and your sense of self and to unpick that is usually something will happen where you hit a brick wall or you have problems with your mental health or you know you just get to a point where you're sick of your own bullshit I mean I genuinely that I always say like for me it was I got to a point I was like I'm sick of it I'm sick of myself I'm sick of my own bullshit and early on for me a lot of my confidence stuff I was very confident as an actor I was very confident in front of a camera on the stage I knew who I was there I did but I I felt like I was you know competent there outside that I really struggled with the way that I looked like I thought that I would step out into the street and people would be so horrified by how ugly I was that I they would just collapse in in a heap and you know that obviously comes from you know being in front of a camera from the age of 11 to the age of like you know whatever still and growing up in those years having a makeup artist correct your face every day it's probably not that healthy in retrospect and it you know for me it started with that that I just felt so horrible so body dysmorphic struggled so much with that that I actually just got to the point that was so exhausting like I couldn't leave the house without every bit and I enjoy makeup I enjoy tan and nails and all that stuff it's fun but it comes from a different place now it comes from fun whereas it came from necessity like I can't leave the house if I don't have this whole mask on because people won't like me and so um you notice and it's spotting that it's spotting I've hit a brick wall at something and then starting to go okay so what can I what could I do that's a little bit better what would be a better story than this one and for me at that point it's weird because I I didn't we didn't have the internet I was kind of doing this it was trial and error I just a lot of the stuff that I do now I now know it has a name but I did it back then I just didn't know it had a name and it was like I would look at the words I was saying to myself I knew I was being an asshole to myself I knew was really horrible with my words so I would say I realize if I'm saying you're a disgusting horrible alien if you go out the house everyone's going to just be disgusted by you you're awful and much worse words than that I thought well what if I could just say you look all right sometimes if I could get to that or you're okay if I could get to that would that be better it's better language so I started with that that was my first thing and now that sounds really sad but it took me a long time to get to okay I'm okay then you look okay sometimes and then you look okay today and it went on from there but it was bit by bit and I didn't you know you see these kind of cultures online especially stuff like body confidence and they're like stand in front of a mirror naked and just be like I am beautiful and everything will be solved behave yourself if if that if I'd asked myself to do that at that time my subconscious would punch me in the gut like I just wouldn't have worked like you wouldn't believe it so whatever the lack of confidence is in whether it's the way you look or your business or being a business person or it's a bit what what story are you telling yourself about that what are the words that you're using in your head or when you talk about yourself and try just not it doesn't have to be perfection just a bit better language see if you can get to this and just stretch yourself from there this this kind of ties on really nicely to kind of where i wanted to take this so just just for some context I did a degree in musical theatre did you darling and then I've added up in sales so I think yeah performing arts and sales probably the two most rejection heavy industries so much you've obviously been auditioning you've been in the music industry you've been in the public eye things like that what what has your relationship been like with rejection throughout the years how have you managed that interestingly I I was okay with rejection when it came to auditions I mean not saying that there wasn't the ones where you're like like you actually have to grieve the loss of the the part there was some hard ones but I think because I had a level of confidence in my ability and I had you know I'd had some early success which is a really nice take you know somebody thinks you're all right at it I think that helped but I think because everybody tells you the story it's really hard you know you've got to learn to have a thick skin that's all I was told you know growing up you would have been told the same in music theater I think there was an expectation you just got to keep doing it and I I have a relentlessness in all aspects of my life like I've you know not always in a positive way being called relentless and I do there is something that is in me like that that I believe you just keep going and find your route like there's a way so I think that helped me because I thought there's a way if they can do it I can do it like I remember like when I didn't get Biker Grove the first time so I didn't get the part the first time they brought a part in for me so I did have a rejection but because I was a kid and I was you know I was lucky that my parents are supportive I've got a really supportive family that's huge it's so lucky they never made me feel bad they never made me feel like I was weird even though as an adult they went yeah you're a bit weird as a kid they never made me feel like that they let me be they let me be myself and express myself so when I got that like knock my brain didn't see it as a knock I remember and I can remember thinking so there's a way because I got on set I was in front of the camera and I met some of the cast so we just do it again but do it better like just do it another time and I think that was quite early on in that world you know as you say rejected loads of times before even if you're successful you get loads of rejection i think socially rejected is different so i was talking on a podcast recently for uh it's called beyond the label uh with uh for adhd 360 where we're talking about rejection sensitivity disorder which is quite linked to adhd and neurodivergence and and i always thought i didn't struggle with that because i was like well i'm fine with you know audition rejection business rejection that's not a big deal but I think that's because I understand that's part of that dance it's very different if you're in a social situation and you feel a sense of rejection that's totally different and that most definitely has spiraled me out in you know I might have fronted it out but I'm very aware of people's body language so if and it's it might be a perceived rejection I'm not saying somebody outwardly would reject me necessarily but even a perceived look that someone would pull when I was a lot younger I would instantly be like they hate me they wish I was dead like obviously it's extreme because your negative part your brain goes extreme but I think in the world of business there are definitely things where you really want something and it doesn't come off and that's like that's a shit out but my motto is I'll find a way and in my worst moments you know I've sat and had some awful moments where you're looking at all the stuff you need to do and the things that are happening in your life and a lot of it's out of your control and and i've had to look at it and go this is happening this is hard but there's a way there's a way through this and that is my affirmation in my worst times find a way there's a way because if you keep telling yourself that your brain will continue to look for that if i tell myself this is it it's a living breathing nightmare my brain will go okay fine then whereas if I go there's a way okay come on there's a way there's a find a way it's like putting into Google how do you do this like there's a way and if I think that's really helped me with that I mean don't get me wrong as I say there's there's been times when I've had a failure or rejection it's been disappointing I just think it's taught me stuff you know when I was signed to Sony and I got dropped by Sony and that was I mean firstly I never really wanted to be a singer right which is a bit weird to say as assigned to Sony as a singer but it happened because I went on the Saturday show with Danny Bear I think it was at the time do you remember it and it was like Saturday morning a bit like live and kicking type of thing went on there with the blazing squad do you remember the blazing squad they were from all of them stuff I remember there was loads of them um and um they were a little bit younger than me so like I felt like I was dead grown in that like I was probably 17 or something you know dead grown and I did the show with them and somebody off Popeye and we went for a meal before the show and there was a music manager their music manager someone else's music manager there and on Biker Grove my character was a singer and that literally came about because I went can you sing and I went yeah and I went go on then sang but yeah it was in the script forever then and it kind of started to happen in real life and on this show I met this person sat next to me and we were chatting and I was saying oh my my character's a singer they then made phone calls and then it started to happen in real life so didn't we like it was a weird world I'll be honest that was like heavy masking I did not enjoy that space it was very vulnerable because it wasn't me as an actor it was me although it was a different name if you google it um I was called Summer Matthews so Holly Valance was out at the same time and obviously me and Holly Valance very very similar um both came from a tv show that was about beginning ends of our similarities but Sony were like let's give it give her a different name anyway it ended up being Summer Matthews and that happened but what happened with that was it was a real weird time for the music industry so there was people just weren't buying singles I was on a single deal to do an album if it did all right and had like all this hype around me and then George Michael signed back up with Sony not blaming him but you know George what are we doing how dare he so rude and then all of the went to George Michael all of the people and it you know we did all this I did big stuff like at the top of the pops and MTV and Disney and Nick Lord you know all this like big stuff which feels like a weird dream that some Matthews did now because I was just always on my own it was just me and like management people so it just feels like it didn't happen and um on the Saturday I knew where the single was going to chart on the sunday it goes out on the radio one chart show it got to 32 and on the monday morning i get a phone call from sony it's been nice working with you bye no like that okay so it's amazing though in in real life yeah but at the time it was like um all of like pop idol and everything was everyone was going from nobody to number one so they just didn't it was this fast food mindset they just wanted a big win straight away and that was it and so for me I'd gone from you write a letter to a tv show yeah you don't get it but then six months later they just write part in for you seven years on tv leave that show character leaves to go to the bright lights of the big city and and then in real life you're doing the same thing literally I left the show on the thursday it went out on tv saturday morning I was on top of the pops so it was like you know all the stories everyone's like it's really hard industry obviously my brain was like no it's not it's not that hard so I always say now like that rejection was actually really healthy for me it taught me to get back up and it also taught me to go what you want because I didn't actually enjoy that the only bit I enjoyed and I realized this of the whole singing thing was making the music video because I want to be an actor so really what I want to do is acting and so I realized I didn't actually enjoy that industry at all it just felt really alien to me but that taught me one to get back up after a public rejection because obviously everyone then's like how are you getting on me singing did you get dropped was it shit it's like horrible um so that was a little challenging i think but i was just so used to it i you know i think it's hard my trajectory i guess in in business and life and all of that like it's really weird to think i'm 40 nearly 41 and my whole life has been on a platform like it's interesting that now our kids are grown up with that they're all on a platform and it gives me a bit of an understanding to what that is like because for a long time i was always always perceiving myself through other people's eyes like a product i never saw myself as a person it was like how you look how you everything is you're a product as an actor and I was always worrying about what other people would think and was I doing this right and micromanaging through somebody else's eyes but it's a weird kind of you know psychological thing to have had every part of your life on a platform tv ridge or you know shows like this and but I think as I got older and I recognized that I see it as a real positive because I can understand the the social media world a lot more.

47:44Holly Matthews:I've had every type of trolling that there is known to man. And I couldn't give a shit, I love it. It gives me dopamine. It's just send them. They think that, you know, when people write like shitty things and they think that they're gonna get at me and I'm like,

48:02Holly Matthews:this is fun for me. Like, it's just funny. Like I don't, it's just nonsense. And I've had some weird ones. What do you think they're getting wrong about you? Oh, I don't. I think most of the... I'm pretty lucky, and maybe it's not luck, because I project... I don't really let people off if they give me shit and they're just being arseholes. Like, I confront things. So maybe that's why people just don't say that much to me. But I've had all sorts. I mean, when my husband died of brain cancer, and when he died and I talked about it, and that was really uncomfortable for other people. It wasn't uncomfortable for me.

48:39Holly Matthews:So I vlogged during my husband's illness. Bearing in mind at the time, I was signed to a channel to, I'm paid to do vloggings. It was my work. But growing up on TV, my safe place was in front of a camera. When I was at school, I was the weird kid off the telly. I was different. When I was in front of a camera with other people like me, that was a safe, comfortable space. I felt confident. I felt confident. so when I'm in my difficult moments being in front of a camera is not weird to me it's it's actually a very soothing place or at the edge of a in the wings of a stage places where I feel the most me and so when Ross my husband was dying I just thought I was stifling it in it's really weird I was trying not to speak about it because I was conscious one it was other people's story as well but I just you know I didn't I think I didn't want to be one of those people crying on the internet as well but then after a while I was like I just feel really inauthentic I'm this is massive and it's happening in my life and I can't go on and start talking to you about you know selling something to you like I just have to talk and it was really cathartic for me it was helpful for me to talk about it and I also didn't want to repeat myself so initially when I made videos it was like I'm just going to say this once because I do not want to have to tell everybody I'll send everyone a link and I just put it out there and people I then recognized that there was other people that were watching that maybe didn't have the way to explain it or to they felt alone and they weren't as confident as me and they were going through the same thing and so I started to talk about it and it had a lot of in there was a huge platform and probably more than I've ever had you know there was paparazzi at Ross's funeral there was like a lot a lot around that time which was intrusive and that was different but after that what people would get wrong is that because I could talk about Ross's death because I'd had an ability to talk about it that meant I didn't love him or that like there was something wrong with me or that I wasn't dealing with it I get a lot of people were like how are you really and I'm like awful like just because I can talk about it doesn't mean I'm not crying or like that I'm not angry or I'm going through the process like everybody does like I think that was more uncomfortable for other people than it was for me because we're not really great with grief stuff are we especially not in the UK so I used to get a lot of things like that but I think in general like my daughter had a video that went viral that was an uncomfortable one for me and it was a lesson so when my daughter was five you may have even seen it but she um she had this video go viral where she was shouting at Theresa May about homelessness right and it came about because we were sat in leafy lemonton spa and we were in a coffee shop all day because both me and my husband work for ourselves and you know eating cake i was very aware that was literal homeless people outside this cafe and it just felt really uncomfortable and she was asking because you know kids do don't they they're so inquisitive and she was like why can't they have a house why and we were there for two hours because I was waiting for my husband doing something so you know as kids do they ask and they ask and they ask so we started talking about homelessness and she's like well why can't the queen buy the houses for everybody you know and I was like well I don't think she does that and I was like listen Theresa May's in charge at the minute that's and I talk to my kids like proper like I answer their questions I don't give them all flowery answers if they want real answers and then she said well I'm going to do a video because she watched me on tv and she watched me do I'm gonna do a video to her I'm gonna tell her that she needs to help homeless people I didn't think the conversation was done a few weeks later I'm trying to get out of bed now as you how old are your kids 18 months oh brand new okay yeah I've got 12 10 5 and okay so you've got so yeah so you're you're not in negotiation really yeah so but you know you get to a stage she was five where they're giving it laws they won't go to sleep will they and then you're back and forth this was like round 10 of me trying to get back to bed and she went can I do that video to Theresa May and I was like, right, we do the video, but then you have to, it was a bribe to get her to sleep, right?

52:50Amazing, stalling. That's unbelievable. I've not heard this one before.

52:54Holly Matthews:Seriously, ridiculous. I mean, one time she came downstairs and she said to me, mom, I cannot go to sleep. This is again about the 10th time when she went, I went, why? She went, my breath smells so bad. I went, that's new. Well done, well done. But this one was Theresa May video. So I went, come on, then we'll do it. Recorded it. She's really articulate. it she always has been right she's autistic she's very very eloquently spoken it was funny right she was angry you know she was like i'm really angry i have to show you it i put it on my facebook page right i didn't have a massive following and it was i mean probably people listening some people think it is but there was about 5 000 on there it wasn't that active it went that i just thought it would get a bit of a laugh and people would move on naive right it was naive i've learned that now it suddenly went from no views it got put on this political left-leaning satire like thing and then they messaged me saying this is going to go viral and i'm like at the time again we didn't it was 2016 what was what's viral mean you know i mean and then suddenly rush at a date and the ellen did i can't say the name degenerate show and like everywhere is talking to me about it and wanting to talk about it.

54:04Holly Matthews:In my real life, while that hoo-ha is happening, my husband's having a second brain surgery, right? So I'm going online and I'm getting people calling my daughter and I won't use the C word because I'm trying to be a little bit more polite on your podcast, a pretentious little, right? No way. That's quite jarring. It's different when it's me, but as a parent, like, and people would tag me and stuff. like my cousin's a bit scrappy right when he was younger and that and he would be tagging me and stuff like tag and going at it with people and i don't do that i'm not gonna go up like and it was i mean she hadn't got a clue she doesn't know anything about you know she's seen it since but she didn't know at the time and i had some awful abuse then because they went on and they realized she's i'm you know left leaning they were like oh she's hates teresa me and it was all like that and i'm like well it wasn't what it was about it was actually the innocence of children just seeing how they feel and but that was definitely an interesting side of things and how that kind of went and my daughter ended up being on a show called little big shots with dawn french it was a really lovely experience just after my husband died she ended up doing it and her on that show each child would have like a talent like a draw market like my daughter's was basically just having opinions shock shock horror yeah so she just taught they'd like say to her like um plastic surgery what'd you think about that and then she'd talk about it and see what she said about that and it was really sweet but that was the first time i experienced like really really bad trolling and one guy on youtube was like oh like messaging saying oh your husband's got brain cancer boohoo bring out the tiny violins and stuff like that right it's like really horrible now as i say i don't ignore that so i'm like are you okay like you would never say that to me in real life like seriously like are you all right and I was being hilarious because I think I am hilarious when I'm like on one and because I wasn't like backing down to it nor was I being goaded by him he started saying um you're quite funny actually like it was starting to like somehow penetrate this like trolling mindset he then sent me an email really long email asking if I would coach him, right, as a coach, I'm not joking.

56:28Holly Matthews:He was a police officer in Northern Ireland and he said he was just having a bad time and like that was his way of letting off steam. I just said I'm not that big a person. So I couldn't, there would be too much for conflict of interest. I'm a petty bitch. So no, no. But like it was interesting because genuinely like hurt people hurt people, right? That's why people do that. It doesn't come from a, I have a lot of compassion in some respects for that because I think, well, it's not okay you don't get to pass your like hurt on to somebody else but it was a really interesting insight into the people that we see online that do say awful things to people but it's certainly given me a kind of freedom now because I've had that for since I was a kid when I signed to Sony there was a website set up we hate Holly website with um a sort of guest book that said, how do you know her?

57:22Holly Matthews:Would you spit on her if she was on fire? People had filled that out. That does a little bit of knocking of your confidence. So there's not really now, at the age I am now, say what you want. Like it's irrelevant. As long as you're, this is why confidence is so important for our kids, for us. If you build your own self-esteem and your own confidence and you like yourself enough most of the time and you've got people around you that are nice people, someone can come at you with that. but it's less likely to get in it it's it becomes the same as me going to you guys you've got a blue face and you'd go well i haven't got a blue face no you've got a blue face i haven't it becomes the same thing if i if somebody says to me now you're an idiot well that's really subjective to be quite honest like some people will think i am but some won't so it's just i think that is it's probably helped me overall all that stuff oh god i'm so tired i've just been talking to qualified prospects all day without any wait time.

58:21How have you been doing it? Because I've been cold calling people on my mobile and I reckon I've spoke to one person. No, no, no. Stop that right now and use Nooks.ai. Why? What does Nooks do? It finds me the right people to call and it calls them and it connects with them over and over and over again. So you're saying it's Nooks.ai and I can just be speaking to qualified decision makers all the time? No other better connection, right? Wow, Nooks.ai. So you've had all that going. So you had your daughter going viral, then you get the backlash, then you've had ridiculous websites going on.

58:55Holly Matthews:Yeah. Then your husband's moved on. Were you still able to mourn properly or did something take away from that? I think, yeah, I think it was, yes, it was on a platform. But then, as I said already, like for me, that wasn't unusual. Like that was quite normal for me. I think like all grief journey, it takes a while and it like I think the first year because there was so much noise and you know I was sat talking to Lorraine on the sofa a month after Ross's death and I was working but for me I like to in times of difficulty create not consume I need to like work and I don't mean that in a like a workaholic way I just I need to be creative I need to use it and so the happy me project came off the back of ross's death it was actually something i and i didn't even realize i'd done it because it was so it was an idea in my notes like about three years before i think originally i was calling it like pocket positivity or something it was i like the idea of things being simple intangible when it comes to like self-development stuff and so when ross died there was so much noise and i was getting so many messages of people some who were in similar position to me and they'd like grieving and stuff and some who were just like the kids are being assholes my washing's up the wall how what do I do and so I put together the happy me project as a standalone course like a self-study literally and I only really remember this recently and start to talk about it was like on the back of an envelope at the bottom of the stairs and I just went like people say it takes I mean it doesn't actually I've learned this now but takes 21 days to create habits so I was like right 21 things whatever right that wrote down what stuff do I do that I've become used to whether you know what things would help people wrote down this stuff tangible tools a little workbook put that together recorded it on my phone no microphone nothing just like that on the bottom of the stairs took me a couple of hours to do that but you know like when you're in the mindset the hyper focus just did it put it out there no pompous ceremony no fancy launch strategy you know none of that stuff just 30 quick course push it out in the world and I think I did a big podcast called true Geordie about the week after and I remember I sat on the set with him and I was uh sat there and it was like ping ping ping I'm seeing these notifications come in I'm thinking oh people might want to get this like they might be into it and so that was kind of it was channeling grief and sadness and the fact that Ross had died which makes no fucking sense i'm like i mean ross was a big character like really anyone who ever met him would be like yeah he's an interesting guy autistic black and white super confident um always said things that either offended people or made them laugh like just 100 people they're very marmite as a person and would describe himself as one of a kind which i was like ross i don't think you can he's like i'm one of a kind and i think that's for other people to say really that's not really for you to be he's like well I am and he was and so when he died and I'm like that just makes no sense like when somebody that is that close to you dies whether it's a parent or a child or like that doesn't make any sense that's not the right order of things it's not how it's supposed to go you know and so I think for me it was channeling that pain into something purposeful that could help other people and I knew and I still know this with all the knowledge that I have when it comes to our minds and and the confidence I have to deliver it and I know that it reaches people because I try to make it in a way that's like small it doesn't need to be big if I were to flex all of like you know some psychological like reasons behind things people like okay bore off how do I do I feel better I feel sad and so for me it's always like how can I find a new way or a new game or a new thing and and that for me the channeling the pain of Ross into the Happy Me project as a as a course was the first step of and it made me feel better like it's not completely selfless because it made me feel better to see other people getting benefit from that and I think that was the kind of what I did with grief and I think people watching and being part of that grief was initially it was overwhelming but it was also easier because I never had to tell anyone that Ross died which actually is really hard like job to do you know like if you haven't seen someone for a bit and then you go oh he's dead like that's shit whereas it didn't happen i mean that was weird in a way because like texas my youngest daughter she's like we went from ross died uh july 29th so the kids in the summer holidays my we'd moved house we'd like we bought another house we moved so we're moving house we had to give the car back because it was a disability vehicle so a new car new house uh kids moved schools to a new area texas are starting school for the first time and i remember going in i think i'd done had done lorraine no i hadn't but it was in every newspaper everyone knows like what was going on i've gone into this new school like a whirlwind all eyes on me i could feel people's like sympathy heads on me like i'm you know kids in poor teachers like here you go here's some grieving kids enjoy bye and i remember i was chucking it down with rain i've got in the car I'm a pretty good driver.

1:04:27Holly Matthews:I never had like accidents or anything. Driving off, I went into someone's wing mirror because I was just in a state. I've got out of the car to like, I'm really sorry. Like, I've only just clipped it. And the guy's gone, it's okay, Holly. I know what's happened. I was like, sobbing. It's like everybody knew, but there was benefit in that because I just didn't have to say it. People just, but then that is, the other side is that's quite overwhelming. It was only really like the next year when you're like oh shit there he's really not here like he's actually dead that's bullshit that was then I had to kind of sit with it and one of the things for me was my confidence dipped which was interesting because Ross and I were so together as a couple we really bounced off each other like his mates called us Rolly because we were like Ross and Holly like we really like I think when when ross met me his mom thought he would find a nice woman who was going to calm him down and what he found was an absolute partner in crime that just cranked everything up and made made his like shenanigans like worse and we just got on from the second that we met so like it was suddenly not having that person to bounce things off like we were both we always say we were real lone wolves when we met we were very very independent he's an entrepreneur himself and you know did his own thing in his own way and when we first lived together it was like we were almost arguing over who did what because we wanted to we were used to doing it ourselves like hyper independent so when Ross wasn't there it was just like it was new I had to learn how to do all of that stuff on my own and that was weird and that was interesting and I also realized that the strategies that had helped me to that point weren't going to serve me now so my strategy for life had been be the loudest in the room wear that mask wear that armor be the most confident you know suss the room out quick all of that kind of stuff it served me to a point but I realized if you're going to be this like hyper independent person it's not going to serve this new stage like you need to like be vulnerable which is awful isn't it yeah what do you think he'd say if you could see how you handled that year after oh ross would ross was my biggest fan like he you know like autistic people often have like their topics of things they like we would say like i was his topic like he would joking like he would he would say to people the most like weird things or he'd say this is my this is my wife or this is my girlfriend holly she's the most emotionally intelligent person you're ever going to meet like the other person's like that's weird that's really strange a lot to live up to as well a lot although one time we went we were working we used to do like promotional modeling when we first met and we went some festival we're working and he went up to a group of lads and went is she fit or not because i've been with that for a bit and like i've started to i don't know if she's fit or not do people think she's fit and i went and he went she doesn't think he said to them she doesn't think she's that fit like she knows and i went i'm fine with myself and the other lads some random at a festival went a bit big-headed but that was like ross was it would keep you on your toes a lot it would always be some random thing that would happen um but he'd love it like i mean that's one thing that does give me comfort i don't believe in an afterlife so i don't think ross is watching me and quite frankly that would be really weird don't like the idea of that at all people will tell tell you things like that when your partner dies he's watching i'm like no that's really strange um people might love that and it's their beliefs but that's not mine and it wasn't ross's and so ross would just love it like i think you know that does help me because we talked about everything there was no he was very direct and he was like you'll be fine like just live your life don't he didn't even want things like a grave or like anything a plaque and he was like fuck that like you're gonna be tied to that forever you'll be feeling guilty because you don't go and sit sit in a tree sit with a tree or like on a bench like no and i even said to him like for the girls for my daughter i was like do you want to do videos you know sometimes people when they know they're going to die will make videos and he went no because i don't know who they're going to be at that stage in their life and what if i'm talking about some ideal i've got of them in my head right now and it's not who they are and he's like i'm i'm with you because i know they'll be good their food will be shit but you will be good they will be good they'll probably die because you'd want to keep them right but um they'll be all right and and he's you know he's right and I think that that gives me comfort he he said before his second brain surgery I've done everything that I wanted to do if this doesn't go right if I if I die like now obviously he died a year later but he's like I'm 30 he was 32 when he died and he's like I've done everything I've said everything that I wanted to do I've lived my life exactly how I wanted to live it and I regret nothing I don't think a lot of people could live to 100 and feel like that so this is why I champion so hard be your way to self because when you live like that you're untouchable you literally like no none of us are like anybody else that's amazing but we keep trying to be we keep trying to like mold ourselves into fitting in and stuff but you know Ross's level of authenticity and honesty yeah piss people off but isn't that kind of part of like whether it's entrepreneur stuff or be your life i'm not going to please everybody you almost want to repel some people like do you guys have any litmus tests in your business out of interest you like to see if these are going to be your kind of people or people you want to work with like yeah yeah yeah we've got a few the one that i said once on a podcast that we were on the annoyed people but you didn't have it in context was i said it will probably make sense because it's long form but part of the interview process I say, imagine we're friends and I'm going to give you a relationship problem that I'm having.