Bitcoin is Winning in DC | Grant McCarty

26:59So the idea is on the network, like these parties, like the issuers need to be responsible for like transactions between parties, right? So just as when you send money from one bank to another bank account, like JP Morgan connects with the Wells Fargo bank account that you sent it to, and you now know both parties, it puts the onus on the issuer to know both of those parties. So from a UX perspective, like user experience, what's that actually going to look like? Not 100 % sure. It could just be that you have to interact on two third parties, write exchanges, and then you KYC with the exchange, and you can only send that way.

27:44It could also mean that any wallet that you use, and if you want to receive that asset, it auto KYCs. I'm sure there are ways that I'm not thinking of. But yeah, it's like the issuer is now responsible for that entire chain of transactions, you know, where that money goes. They got to follow it. And so that's gone through the Senate or the House? The Senate. And then the House is next. And then this is where things get pretty spicy. OK, go on. Tell me. Well, just again, the ordering, stable coins, market structure, Bitcoin reserve. So when we started Bitcoin Policy Institute, every single year since its inception, even before we started BPI, I have heard in Washington, D.C., this is the year for the stablecoin bill.

28:32You know, this is the year for market structure legislation. Right. And every single year, there have been months and months and months of negotiations and they've blown up. Inevitably. Inevitably. Right. And every year, the reason is different. Right. Like one year, it's bipartisan breakdown. The next year, the White House makes a call to the leader of a party and says, we don't agree with this. The next year, one of the big companies in the space doesn't like a couple of the provisions. They put their foot down.

29:03Finally, for the first time ever, it actually could be the year of the stable coin bill. right um but i think the house recognizes that there's a limited window of opportunity here right um republicans control the house the senate and the presidency which means that they can get stuff done right uh at the end of 2026 who knows if those three things are going to remain the same right so with this limited window the house is sitting here thinking okay well the senate just passed this and they send us a bill and that bill needs to be marked up, needs to be worked on. And then either the house essentially codifies what the Senate sent them and they rubber stamp it and it's good to go.

29:48Or the house sends them a bunch of like edits essentially. And then the Senate will have to codify those edits. So there are a number of people in the house who are sitting here going, well, cool. The house already wants this to pass. What if we just put the whole market structure bill in there as well make them one big bill send it back to the senate and then the senate can sign off on that um so all the tension is obviously it's hard to pass one bill let alone two and a lot of people are concerned like wait are we counting our chickens before they're hatching right like are we getting too cute um let's just pass one thing and then we can do the next uh there is serious risk of like the entire thing blowing up if they try to put too much into one bill.

30:35So why, I understand that why they want to put market structuring because they just want to get this thing passed as quickly as possible. What are the negatives of doing that? And maybe it's actually worth explaining what market structure actually means. Sure. Yeah. It's, it's a few hundred pages of stuff that largely doesn't, you know, affect, um, I'll say largely doesn't, but in many ways doesn't affect like Bitcoin or Bitcoin users, but it affects a lot of the companies operating in the broader crypto space. And a lot of it is, um, one of the big things that the market structure bill really does is establish what is a commodity versus what is a security right like a digital commodity all these kinds of terms that get thrown around they have a huge impact on how these things get regulated so we'll use something like solana for example you have solana and uh you can stake your solana and you get you know rewards right you get you get money um tether circle like all these things that that have yield in a lot of people's current understanding of, uh, securities law, right.

31:34Um, that passes the Howey test, right. It, it, it could be considered an investment contract, right? Like just cause something in one moment could be deemed a, you know, security or an investment contract doesn't mean in another context that it couldn't be something different. Right. Um, but you've got these, these pieces of the Howey test and, uh, a lot of things in the crypto space from my perspective, uh, talk to who are head of policy, Zach Shapiro, one of the best like lawyers, not just in Bitcoin, but in the broader digital asset ecosystem. A lot of this stuff probably are like digital securities, right, or excuse me, securities.

32:12And so what market structure wants to do is update some of these securities laws to take into account the nuances of kind of the digital age. And so it tries to establish like a clear definition and bright line of rather than this bulleted list, where if you check these four boxes, you are, you know, a security or an investment contract. It's going to create a new definition specifically for things in the digital space that says, hey, if you're this centralized, right, if this number of wallets owns this percentage of the network, you're a security, right? But if you're sufficiently decentralized, you're a commodity, right?

32:59So they're trying to establish this bright line and everything is downstream of that, right? Because then you get into like, which agencies regulate this stuff? Honestly, I'm like, I'm kind of boring myself just talking about it. It's all wonky like stuff, but it's hundreds of pages full of wonky stuff that impacts entire global financial markets, right? And it impacts the hundreds of millions, billions of dollars that go to our regulators because they need to be told who regulates this stuff, whose job is it? So that's market structure. And notice how I told you at the outset, a lot of this doesn't matter to Bitcoiners because we know Bitcoin is a commodity.

33:36But the thing that may matter is like, get this through so they can work on the things that actually matter. Yeah, yeah. And honestly, it's funny. I was joking about this with somebody just a few hours ago, but there's this refrain that you see with a lot of like the biggest crypto executives and it's like an open secret i guess but a lot of them they're they're shit coining to buy more bitcoin right they run a shitcoin business because that's where the money is and uh they make a bunch of money and then they save in bitcoin right so there are a lot of companies that do a lot of crypto stuff and they want to continue making money with their crypto stuff um but they also do really care about bitcoin and it's kind of holding that like almost cognitive dissonance.

34:22So they care about market structure a lot. And there's a lot of crypto money that has put a lot of time and energy and resources into stablecoins market structure. And the last thing is like the crypto community broadly spent like$200 million in US elections in 2024. And Bitcoin has played a large role in that. But the broader crypto and crypto VC community played another big role in that. And they have literally billions of dollars at stake if they're deemed, you know, securities instead of commodities. So the House and the Senate are disagreeing about this. Like, I know it's impossible to predict these things are a mess, but how do you think this will play out?

35:06I'm going to give you a cynical take. Okay. And I don't know if I can say this is like gun to my head, my actual prediction, but I think it's one worth like sharing. So you got option one, the house capitulates and they go, all right, we'll just do stablecoins. And then they move on to market structure and everything takes very long time because it's Congress and cool. Option number two, house of representatives puts market structure along with stablecoins. They send it back and it goes through and both those pass and wow, you know, amazing. Option three, which I'm actually very concerned about, is the tumult and the behind the scenes, the bickering, the frustration, how long this is taking, the fact that legislating is inherently zero sum, right?

35:57You spend months working on cryptocurrency policy. You are taking thousands of hours worth of staff time, worth of member time, and putting it on an issue that for a lot of people is still seemingly a niche issue that doesn't impact, again, this is general public view, doesn't impact the lives of real Americans. Right. So you're sitting here and a lot of people are going, why are we spending all this time on digital commodity versus security stuff? We have health care problems. We have education problems. We have all these things that we could be focusing on. So what I'm genuinely worried about is the Senate passes genius that they just did.

36:41They send it to the House. The House tries to put market structure in there. there's all this disagreement there's all this turmoil the white house goes what's taking so long why why am i getting phone calls saying that this senator is screwing this thing up or this congress person is putting their foot down why am i getting you know uh why am i hearing about this right it's like a parent um your kids are bickering in the back seat and you're driving to Disneyland or whatever. Right. And like, at what point does the parent pull over and go like, we're not going to shut up. Yeah. Or we're not going right.

37:18Like I'm going to pull this car over unless you can stop hitting each other. Right. There's like a real chance that that happens between the house and the Senate. Um, and so if, if the white house, the Senate and the house are not fully aligned and this stuff doesn't move like within the next few months, at what point does the president go, look, crypto industry appreciates you. You helped get me elected. You gave me a lot of money and you gave a bunch of Senate and house races, a lot of money, but like, this was supposed to be my like gift to you all. This was supposed to be an easy thing that I just kind of lobbed your way so that I could focus on, you know, war in the middle East and these geopolitical issues and the US economy and all these things.

38:05At what point does he go? It's not worth it. It's not worth it, right? And that's when it can be detrimental to Bitcoin when it comes to things like the SBR. Yes, because unfortunately we're third on that list and there's a world where the president goes, I fulfilled my campaign promise to you. I wrote a Bitcoin executive order for the Bitcoin strategic reserve. Like, what are you asking? You're asking me to do more, right? Like, are you just being greedy now? And so a lot of this is like, how do we tactfully remind the administration, like the work is not done. This is what success really looks like.

38:46Because if we don't, there's real risk of them going, well, we did most of it. You guys screwed it up on the second half and that's on you. Tough. That's not a good outcome. No. Yeah. So you have a lot of work to do, man. A lot of work. Why are you here? So let's talk a bit about the conference because it was an amazing conference. I've seen some of it on video. I was there for the first half and then I was recording podcasts. So I missed a big chunk. Give me the kind of general update. What was the coolest thing that happened? To me, the coolest thing that happened, I got to moderate two panels and the cool things that happened had nothing to do with my moderation but they had to do with the things that the people on stage said and uh i'm gonna be honest my it's a sole goal anytime i moderate panels or firesides at our policy events is how do you get a member of congress to say literally anything meaningful right like how do you get them not just word salad yes like go beyond the posturing go beyond the the cliches right and um you know i do prep with their offices before i do prep with the members before, and I make sure that they know going in, I'm going to ask you like explicitly about these things.

40:05And, and if you're not comfortable, we're in a very lucky position at BPI to be able to say, Hey, we're going to ask you if the government should buy Bitcoin. And if you're not comfortable responding to that in front of an audience of a thousand people in person and, and 30 ,000 plus people online, don't speak at this event. Right. And weirdly enough, or silly enough, like that works, right? They respond to that and they're forced to engage with an issue, right? They want the eyeballs. They want to be able to, you know, we give them an audience of not just policy makers in DC, but because of like the fervor of Bitcoiners, like in the US and around the world, you get this national, this global audience that you get to speak to if you're a policy maker.

40:50and they want that, right? There's a conference for everything in DC, cement conferences, national electrical union conferences. Trust me, those live streams are not getting the type of syndication that Bitcoin conferences get, that your podcast gets, right? We're an incredibly unique space in that regard. So we bring value to them just through that distribution and syndication basically. And you can force the issue. So at our event, I was really proud because Congressional Whip, our House Majority Whip, Tom Emmer, who has been working on digital asset issues for years in Congress, he is a Republican.

41:34He's focused a lot on crypto issues, and he's also done work on central bank digital currencies. He was one of the earliest people to push back against that in Congress. Long story short, I asked him on stage, should the government own Bitcoin? and he was seated next to Representative Begich, who introduced the companion bill to Senator Lemmis's Senate bill. He's from Alaska. Alaska. And it's the same bill as the one in the Senate. And it says the US government should buy a million Bitcoin, right? So we tee it up. I go, we're talking about the Bitcoin Act and Whip Emmer, who's not a co-sponsor of the Bitcoin Act, but who is the majority whip, which means he handles so much of the negotiating and so much of the actual behind the scenes legislating of what gets its way to the congressional floor, what actually gets talked about.

42:22Do you think the U.S. government should buy Bitcoin? And he goes, I do. I'm not sure if we should use taxpayer dollars, but I think this thing's a strategic asset and it makes a lot of sense. The U.S. government should have some on its balance sheet. And then it's this perfect opportunity. Congressman Begich goes, oh, you're worried about taxpayer dollars? Let me explain to you how this bill works because we're spending zero taxpayer dollars, right? To buy Bitcoin. So it's a moment like that where you might think that those conversations happen behind the scenes all the time in Congress. The reality is there are - They've got a lot to talk about.

42:56They've got a lot to talk about. There are hundreds and hundreds of congressional members, right? And then a hundred senators as well. So like, unless they're good friends, they might meet sometimes on the floor or they might get connected for a few minutes with their staff, but forcing them to have one of these conversations, like real stuff can happen. This episode is brought to you by Blockware. Would you rather have one Bitcoin today or two in a few years from now? Silly question. Well, Bitcoin mining is a tried and true method to accumulate more Bitcoin and over a few years, it can even outperform a normal DCA.

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44:33How did he respond to that? What did he say once Begich had explained how it was actually working? Once he explained it, he goes, I followed up and I go, so we just explained there's a bill here that accomplishes government buying Bitcoin without spending taxpayer dollars. What are the next steps here? You said you were open to that. And I don't think I phrased it exactly like that. You can watch the live stream, check it out. But he essentially says, I think the House should have a serious conversation about this. And I think it needs to happen in House Financial Services Committee, which is where this really needs to go.

45:12So Congressman Begich has 10 or 11 co-sponsors on the Bitcoin Act in the House. None of them are currently on that Financial Services Committee. okay so if whip emmer becomes a co-sponsor and he's on the financial services committee that's where something like that would really like actually be able to get voted on actually go to the floor so i asked him and uh he said he wants to have that conversation we want him to to become a co-sponsor um he's been good on a number of different issues uh not to derail the conversation too much but the blockchain regulatory certainty act is another they're still that Matt Corrala is pushing very hard.

45:53Yes. The right to self-custody, essentially. Yeah. And the right for developers to write open source software, write code, and not be punished for writing that code. Whip Emer is the co-lead of that, along with Representative Torres, who's a Democrat out of New York. Representative Torres and Representative Gottheimer were on another panel at the conference. They were also asked if the US government should buy Bitcoin. They both also gave really amazing answers. And it just made me so much more bullish for the possibility of this because we're forcing that conversation. That's amazing. The Cynthia Lemus bill to buy a million Bitcoin seems insane.

46:39I mean, I hope it passes, but it's a lot of Bitcoin. And I say that when I say it sounds insane, it sounds insane because to convince the US government to buy a million Bitcoin is a lift. What kind of percentage chance would you put on that bill actually passing? Some double digit percentage chance. I don't know if I have an exact one. I don't know if it's necessarily a coin flip. It is the type of percentage chance to me that has the ability to change fairly rapidly and somewhat linearly as the work is taking place. So when she introduced it last year in 2024, that percentage chance was maybe 1%, 2%.

47:24With the new administration and with the reintroduction, that probably jumps to 10 or 15%. And then every new co-sponsor, and don't take these numbers, take them with a grain of salt, but every new co-sponsor adds a little bit of percentage chance. Every comment, you know, from the president from the White House, you know, the vice president speaking in the or at the Vegas conference, all of those things are marginally increased the chance that this happens. And getting the house on board increases the chance that this happens. So yeah, it's probably a small to medium double digit percentage chance now, but the strategic Bitcoin reserve really like didn't.

48:08That was memed into reality. Yes, exactly. Like you've talked with other BPI people about this, but it's just people on Bitcoin Twitter have been talking about the government buying Bitcoin and some Bitcoin policy people have worked to turn that into actual policy. And then a Senator's office said, screw it. We're going to do it. And we're going to push for this. And we're actually going to stake like political capital on this. So, um, everything is insane until it happens. Everything is ridiculous until it happens. That is Bitcoin in a nutshell. Yeah. And when I say it's insane, like it's just because that kind of Overton window has shifted so much.

48:44Like I think whoever manages to pull this off is, is going to look like a genius, but at the moment they probably look a little insane to some people who aren't paying close attention to this. Um, I think the big question that a lot of people would have is we're in this time period, like you said, now is the time to make these real policy changes. In a few years time, if the Democrats come into power, what do you think the chances are of a lot of this stuff getting reversed? And how do you, as the Bitcoin Policy Institute, make sure that doesn't happen? Yeah, this is an incredible question. And it's why we're not resting on our laurels right now and why executive actions aren't enough.

49:23Executive actions can be undone like that. It can be undone with the auto pen or whatever. So a new administration comes in and they go, I don't like the executive actions of the past administration. I'm going to undo them. And all of the work, all the progress, the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been spent by Bitcoin and crypto industry people is now, I guess it bought you a few years of cover, right? To buy and sell your meme coins, right? Like, is that really a win? No. No. So for us, codification in the legislation, that's much more difficult to undo. But it also reinforces kind of the core belief of BPI, which from the beginning, we've said lobbying is not enough, right?

50:07Lobbying and just pushing lawmakers to vote yes or no on something. It can be useful if you have a key priority that needs to be pushed on. So Blockchain Regulatory Certainty Act. We want more lobbying to support that bill. um it got included in the house uh clarity act you know market structure at this point has a good chance of like actually passing now like a very high chance of passing i would say um that is sorry i'm like very close to sneezing you know that feeling yeah uh so lobbying is important when you have like the opportunity to put points on the board and there's something right in front of you um that you can push and then there's campaign spending which is good to obviously get people, get on people's good side.

50:54I feel like they owe you a favor. Yeah. And that's the reality of politics. But that's also fleeting. And we saw this with the Genius Act in the Senate, actually. There were multiple members of Congress who received money from the crypto industry in the 2024 election to help them get elected or reelected. And they were actually some of the people who ended up stalling the bill. Interesting. and pushing back on it and delaying negotiations so you might have given a million dollars to a member and you might feel like they owe you a favor but if they don't truly believe that like what you're doing is good they might just go thanks for the money right and and push you off to the side so um what we want is we want real stuff passed and we want to explain to people why bitcoin is good and we have a few years to explain to people why bitcoin is good and people across the aisle, here's why Bitcoin is good and good for America and good for people all over the world.

51:53The more people who really understand that and believe that, the more chances we have of not basically just being like brutally punished by the next administration that comes in and goes, wow, this whole Bitcoin thing is a grift. It is entirely related to the previous administration. And not only am I going to undo what we did, but we're going to go after them twice as hard as we did in the Biden administration. Yeah, which would be a disaster. That's on the table. Like, that's the thing. It's not infeasible. And so, like, when you say you've got a few years, do you really have 18 months? 18 months for legitimate codification of legislation, yes.

52:32And then you have two years to, like, educate, educate, educate, right? And that's a lot of the groundwork that isn't, it's not sexy. Honestly, a lot of our work is not. It's policy work. It's wonky. It's nerdy. Like, I get it. But you got 24 months, even after the midterms. You know how many meetings that is? You know how many opportunities to actually sit down with lawmakers, especially lawmakers who are coming up on their own election or re-election? A number of Democrats still recognize that the Bitcoin constituency and crypto constituency is like a largely independent constituency. It cross cuts political aisles, and they got a lot of money.

53:15so you're speaking politicians languages right they want to engage they want eyeballs and they want money they want eyeballs and they want money and remember what i said earlier the hardest part is getting them to give you the few minutes that is what allows you to get in the door and then it's our job at bpi and and hopefully more people or groups come along to do this but we started bpi to actually have substantive policy conversations that go beyond lobbying political spending and and just kind of BS like talking points. So our job is to move past that, dig into substance and genuinely convince people Bitcoin is good.

53:55And the last thing I'll say about that is like, we don't do that alone. One of the big reasons that we host the policy summit, one of the big reasons that we do any type of public gathering at BPI or convening is like, we are policy experts. By no means are we the key experts on all of Bitcoin's core issues. So we want to connect core developers, open source developers with lawmakers and have them tell their stories, have them talk about their key issues. That's why we had Matt Corrales speak at the event. That's why we put him on stage with two democratic lawmakers talking about the BRCA. Same with the Human Rights Foundation and miners.

54:34And yeah, exactly. Like we're, I think people know this and I think people appreciate it because we've just gone to pains to ensure that this is not misconstrued. But by no means does BPI think that we're speaking on behalf of all Bitcoiners. By no means do we think we know what's best for the network. That's not for us to decide. That's for everyone in Bitcoin to determine. Right. So what we do think is we have the opportunity to advocate for the network and the network's users in D.C. to ensure that people in the U.S. and around the world can continue using this stuff. So where we're the best people to talk about that, we talk about it.

55:16And where other people are the best people, we try to bring them in. I think the work that Alex and the entire Human Rights Foundation are doing is incredible. And it's also like not only is the work amazing, which it is, but the narrative is amazing. And I think that's the kind of thing that it should resonate with everyone, but I think it'll particularly resonate with the left, which is why it was so cool to see you dedicate, I don't know, an hour and a half of the programming to human rights issues. Is that one of the best areas that you can kind of exploit in these conversations? 100%. It's funny because we've done a number of Bitcoin events at this point.

55:54This is the third annual Bitcoin Policy Summit, and we've done some smaller conferences. We do all sorts of panel discussions, roundtable discussions. And sometimes we have to check ourselves and go, where is the general public and where is DC at in terms of Bitcoin knowledge and where are they at in terms of the Bitcoin conversation, have they already heard this stuff, right? Have they heard legitimate arguments for Bitcoin? And have they heard the Bitcoin for human rights story, right? One of the things that I think HRF gets better than most groups, not just in Bitcoin, just in general, is that the reality of the world is you can hit thousands and thousands and thousands of people with your message and you have hit the tiniest fraction of 1 % of the entire world, right?

56:44So if you genuinely believe that Bitcoin is money for people all over the world, if you think that this technology will proliferate to every single person or almost every single person around the world, then you know, like, it's cliche, we're still early. right we're still early so so many people who hear your talk it's the first time they're hearing this right maybe they were at another bitcoin conference and and uh uh um alex gladstein or um on a check of it short or roy amaboo spoke maybe the personal audience was on their phone right so running that back and doing those talks again and again and again it means that frankly to me the most powerful and potent arguments for bitcoin which are a lot of hrf arguments actually resonate with people.

57:29And it kind of comes back to the whole like marketing adage or whatever. People need to hear or see a product seven times before they buy it. Or, you know, same kind of thing, right? A lot of people have read about Bitcoin or they read a headline about Bitcoin. Not everybody has heard that human rights story. And maybe they heard one and it didn't resonate. Our goal with BPI is like, and with the Bitcoin Policy Summit, if somebody can come to the conference skeptical of Bitcoin or open to Bitcoin, but not a Bitcoiner, which is the majority of the people that come to our events, if they can come away with even one light bulb moment, one aha, like, I didn't realize that.

58:13I didn't think about that. That's a win. And I think people maybe overestimate how many events actually do that, right? Like there are just a lot of events that people go to and they say hi to people and they drink at the happy hour and they leave, right? And it's in one year out the other. So by no means do I think people sat through all nine hours of our programming and heard every word. Do I think and do I hope that they heard at least one five minute talk that like made them think? I really hope so. And if we did that, then this event was a massive success. Yeah. It's amazing. It was truly a great conference.

58:51And last thing on the kind of Democrat side, obviously over the last, I don't know, however many years, Elizabeth Warren's had her kind of anti-crypto army. Is that falling apart and are they kind of moving away from that narrative or is it still there? Yeah. I mean, Senator Warren is really smart. And I know that is a controversial opinion sometimes. I have heard that from multiple senators on the other side of the aisle say that she is smart, that she is talented, and that she knows the game she's playing and plays it very well. And so not only do I kind of know what I've seen and what I've interacted with, but they interact with her on the floor and in the media and all these things.

59:37And they've said that almost verbatim. Actually, one said it yesterday, said she's smart and she's talented. And this person disagrees with her on nearly every single policy issue you can imagine. So she is the type of person who, because of her platform, because she has those characteristics, she's going to continue fighting, barking, being loud or annoying or whatever you want to call it. Right. Against this industry and continue to kind of be that like force of nature. Even even now. Right. That said, she was a lot more potent during the last administration. Because she had the administration support, right?

1:00:24She doesn't have the administration support. So there can be a lot of yelling and a lot of name calling and a lot of criticism thrown at Bitcoiners and people using stable coins and all those types of things. Call them criminals, call them terrorists. And there are just fewer people who are going to see that as a politically savvy move to get behind. So I would say the anti-crypto army is not growing. it's basically the same people that it was in 2021 when we first were looking at this. And what does that tell you? Like that tells you that the TAM, like the total addressable market of the anti-crypto army in DC is one, limited by who's in power, which should tell you something.

1:01:07And two, it's limited by like, if you're not against Bitcoin at this point, if you're not for bitcoin no no no if you're not against it like what are you going to learn about bitcoin or crypto now that would make you against it if you're not already there right so think about all the congressional fence sitters they've been told bitcoin finance tomas they've been told bitcoin is used for human trafficking they've been told bitcoin is used for fentanyl they've been told literally every possible bad thing about bitcoin and if you're not like part of the anti-crypto army? What's going to get you over the line?

1:01:43What's going to get you, you know? What, Bitcoin's going to 2x and you're going to go, oh man, Bitcoin's the second largest asset in the world. Now I'm really against it. So what does that tell you, right? That message actually hasn't resonated as much as I think she and some others thought it would. And it means that if they're still sitting on the fence, despite all of the FUD, we have an opportunity to actually change their minds. So. Damn, you're going to be busy. That's the goal. You know, um, the, actually, no, no, no. Let me revise that. Let me revise that. Um, it will be incredible if I like don't have a job.

1:02:24True. Genuinely like that, that is a version of winning, right? Um, alternatively, uh, another version of winning is that BPI becomes one of the largest institutions in Washington, D.C. because Bitcoin is the largest asset in the entire world. And we do need to be thinking about Bitcoin policy in every possible aspect, right? So that's what winning really looks like on the political level, is that Bitcoin just supersedes and overtakes and eats all of the crypto conversations that have been happening all these years. That's just going to become its own thing. Oh, you don't want to be regulated as security and you want to offer people yield and do these things.

1:03:05Cool. That's this financial services conversation. And then there's Bitcoin, which is the largest asset in the entire world in this future scenario. And we're thinking about it from a geopolitical perspective. We're thinking about it from the perspective of everyday Americans using it in the economy. We're thinking about it on a totally different level than just like financial services, niche issues. So BPI will scale with Bitcoin to meet the demands of the moment. We're definitely, there's more work for us to do now than we have the bandwidth for. Unfortunately, we're still to date the only Bitcoin focused organization working in Washington, DC.

1:03:45We started this because there wasn't another one. And I've said this every single year. It's like not a joke. We want more of this, but it's just, it's not there. Like there's not more Bitcoin advocacy happening in DC. So hop on board the BPI train and I guess help support our work and be involved. And I mentioned we're like a convener of some of the smartest people in this space. The team you've got is incredible. Incredible people. Like most importantly, just really high integrity, amazing people who care about the mission more than anything, who also happen to be brilliant and incredibly hardworking.

1:04:23And then not only that, but all the people who are not necessarily BPI affiliated, who just believe the mission and are working to support our work because again, it's not just our work. Like this is, it's so much bigger than me, than BPI, than any of us. Right. So it's very cool to be part of something that people can buy into because it's not inherently like, um, ego based or, or, or selfish or anything like that. Um, we're a nonprofit, you know, we're doing this because we genuinely love it because it's an opportunity to make an incredible impact. And like Bitcoin, we are taking something that on face is insane.

1:05:10Really magic internet money being the fifth largest asset in the entire world being used by hundreds of millions of people around the world being money of last resort for millions of people, right, did not exist 20 years ago. So in the same way, why can't the Bitcoin Policy Institute be one of the largest organizations in Washington, D.C.? Why can't we advise all the members of Congress and every agency in the administration on Bitcoin policy? Why not? And no one else is doing it. So yeah, success is, is it scales with Bitcoin. The alternative is maybe we just, we, we win so much, you know, in the next few years, we win so much that we go, wow, job done, job done.

1:05:58Oh my goodness. We, you know, Bitcoin has secured monetary freedom for everyone. And this thing's bigger than anybody can get their heads or hands around at this point. So we don't really need, you know, we don't have to save anybody from anything at this point. We don't have to protect anybody from anything. This thing is, you know, grown so much that, that it is, it is past that point. Um, I hope so, but I think it's unlikely. I, uh, Thomas took me around the new pub key location where I know you guys are going to be co-locating. That place is huge, but it sounds like you might need a bigger office pretty quickly.

1:06:35It's, uh, we'll see. I am, I'm glad he mentioned it because we've been like kind of, what can we talk about publicly? What can we, you know, what's the PR around this? But we've been working on this for months and I'm so pumped. Pubkey DC, it's going to be unbelievable. The place is incredible. It's so cool. It's a very big space. It's really, we've been telling all of these people in DC, there's going to be a Bitcoin community hub and the number of people, uh, staffers from yesterday, legislative directors from, you know, a few of the offices that spoke just shot me a text at the end. Great event.

1:07:16Uh, I'll come to the opening of pub key or, you know, can't wait to come to pub key. So this thing is going to be just the lifeblood of Bitcoin policy conversations. The fact that we get to be a part of it, frankly, I feel incredibly privileged, like shout out to Thomas and the rest of the pub key team for believing in us to partner with us in that way. Um, but it's an extension of, and hopefully a reminder of like why we're doing what we're doing. This is not just about securing like incentives for big Bitcoin companies or, uh, any of that kind of stuff, or like just pumping people's bags. Right.

1:07:54We're, we're Bitcoiners first, David, David and I, like when we founded BPI, you know, we did not come from a political background. We weren't oil lobbyists that decided to get in the Bitcoin game, right? We were Bitcoiners and we're working in the Bitcoin space. So the fact that we get to be part of Bitcoin community hub and create a Bitcoin community hub in DC, it's like, that's what it's all about. There are not that many Bitcoiners in DC. Not nearly as many as we would like. So we want to change that. That's the way of changing it. Having a beer next to Thomas and jerk is the way to orange pill people.

1:08:29That'll get you. That'll get you. Well, thank you for this grant. The work you're doing is amazing. Appreciate you. Appreciate everything you're doing. Thank you. And last thing, just shout out to you. Cause you have had so many BPI guests over the years. Cause they're great. Like I said, high integrity, just awesome people who also happen to be brilliant. But But the fact that you continue to take the time to platform, to have conversations with people who are part of BPI, it is not unappreciated. BPI now is more of an institution, and we're going to be around for a very long time. BPI two or three years ago, we were month to month, right, in terms of a number of different things, right?

1:09:11Whether it was fundraising or just what our work was going to look like, right? So you guys bet on us early and you kind of recognized, hey, the group of people that we have are really special. And also that the Bitcoin policy conversation was one worth having. The last thing I'll say is, if you remember four years ago, Bitcoin policy was not like super popular among Bitcoiners, right? The first months or years of BPI, we were fielding questions of, why does Bitcoin even need a policy organization? Why do we even need a BPI? So I think you guys recognized that very early on and understood, hey, this is a conversation at the very least worth having.

1:09:58And I think it's going to age very well. I think so, too. I mean, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the kind words, but the only reason I have the people from BPI on and similarly with the old what Bitcoin did is because they're great. Like if they were rubbish. Yeah, if they didn't get the views. Yeah, exactly. I'm doing a show with Matt Pines tomorrow on Aliens. So that's awesome. I'm very excited. I'm glad we split this up, you know, so I get to shill BPI, I get to say, hey, the summit was awesome. By the way, if you get the chance, go back and watch the chat with Representative Torres, Representative Gottheimer, and then the chat with Representative Begich and Representative Emmer.

1:10:35They all said really awesome things about Bitcoin. But yeah, I get to show the summit. I get to show BPI. And then you're going to have an utterly ridiculous conversation with Matt tomorrow, I'm sure. Well, go watch the whole thing. It's on Bitcoin Magazine's YouTube. It's on your YouTube as well. It's on our YouTube, Bitcoin Mag, and Twitter, Rumble. Honestly, yeah, it's everywhere. Go watch it. I appreciate you, Grant. Thank you, man. Appreciate you.

1:11:03Thank you.