Capitalism Is Dead: The Rise of the AI Surveillance State | Erik Cason

27:45But you know, like, I'm open to the possibilities because like we kind of need all the help that we can get. It sounds quite scary. This is like a real fracturing of everything that we know really in the world today. Look, like at my deepest level, like, I actually think this is astrological. Like, I fundamentally think that this deals with the end of times. You owning, like, your own self-sovereign AI is essentially going to be messianic because of the way it's going to save your ass repeatedly in the coming crisis. Like, shit's going to unhinge. It's clear that, like, people in government...

28:19Like, there's a great quote from Hannah Arendt where she's talking about the idea of brinkmanship and nuclear holocaust and that like the idea of winning in a nuclear war is like so fundamentally insane and is like so removed from anything that could ever be called victory historically. And like, that's what we're entering into. And like, again, I want to emphasize like, there isn't some like evil, wicked dude out there being like, mwahaha, I can kill humanity. It's like a government out there who's like, let's kill those other people who like aren't like us. And it's the government's being like, well, they're going to do it, so we have to do it.

28:55And this is the whole escalation that like none of them will stop. And so the thing that you can do is, but what we can do is we can collectivize ourselves. We can actually use our self-sovereign AIs and, you know, we'll be able to node them up and network them up and allow for them to talk and exchange data and do it in various new innovative ways through things like BitChap or other means. And like, we're all going to become much more powerful and much more sovereign, can organize ourselves quickly, can have much more fluid and robust conversations, and we can filter out all the noise. Like, this is unequivocally the most powerful tool that humanity has ever been given.

29:30And the question is, is it going to work for you and be loyal to you? Or is somebody else going to own it? And like, this just brings us all the fucking way back to Plato and the question of who watches the Watchmen. And like, that's what it's all about. It's just about authority over a tool and a function. It's almost like a nation state level prisoner's dilemma with AI. Yep. Terrifying. So, okay, then, so I know, obviously, you're building Vora. You said that, like, a personal AI that is loyal to you will save you. How will it save you? Well, one is that, like, through it being loyal, like, it's going to have greater, for lack of a better word, offensive capabilities.

30:14So, like, you know, things that we have talked about before is, like, somebody walks into the perimeter of your property. Wouldn't it be really great to have, say, a drone system that automatically deploys and gather surveillance on them and reports back to you and notifies you. And you get a notification on your phone while you're in the shower that says, hey, there's some creepy looking guys here in masks. Because like they matched what I believe to be like intruders. Like I chose to use the alarm or release the dogs with or release the bees, release the dogs with the bees in their mouths. You know, like there's a whole series of options here that we can take.

30:46But like that's because and like, do you think Tesla is going to give you access to like, are they gonna deploy the drones with the bees in them? You know, like, same thing with, like, we're gonna all have robots in our homes. Who do you want to have access to that? You know, Meta? Like, they would never give us a technology that, like, lives on, say, like, our face that surveils everything and, like, share that with real humans, you know? Like, they, like, Mark Zuckerberg is someone I trust with my data and privacy. And, like, he would never betray me. For anybody who thinks I'm not being facetious, I'm being incredibly facetious, so.

31:22I mean, I won't even have like an Alexa in my house because I'm worried about the surveillance. There's like there's no chance I'm having a robot in my house that's run by one of these mega companies. You can't figure out any of those network connections or other shit, but your loyal personal AI can. Huh, like, okay, like now I can kind of see where we're going. Okay. And so like now people are trying to sell you shit on the internet and, you know, like, let's say you're too fat and, you know, they're trying to sell you a Zenpic, but you don't want that. So could you just block like all food ads that come to me?

31:53Or, you know, like however you want to experience the internet now, like you can actually request it. You know what? Like if I'm going to access like some nasty porn site or something, like force me to, like you have access to my wallet, just like steal money from my Bitcoin wallet. And like, yeah, like you can use it to like fund some inference that like you'll do on your own, like about my journal or something. I don't know. But like you get to have this whole different relationship. And furthermore, like it cryptographically proves itself to you that like it's not releasing and leaking your information everywhere.

32:23And like you have the actual attestation that the goal with Vore is to like essentially make it from the silicon to the software. Like you can essentially validate every single component of it from the hardware to the software that like this thing is loyal to you. It's not leaking any information. It's not phoning home. There's no everything that comes in and out of it. Like you're going to actually know and approve. And as the AI learns you better and better, it gets to know your habits better. you guys develop a more loyal relationship. It figures out more and more the things that you want it to figure out about you, more places that you can ask it to challenge you and all the different personality types in between because it's free and open source software that like you own outright.

33:03It lives on the hardware that belongs to you. And like this is the new world that we're going into. And like this is also the relationship that like you and me were promised. We like grew up before the internet. This thing was introduced to us that were like, look at this beautiful, crazy place where people can choose to be new and different and we can share openly and our identities can be something that we selectively share. Like, that was the vision that we were sold on. And like, we got this hunk of shit that's coming to eat humanity now. And like, we can steal the fire back from these people and like, deliver it to ourselves.

33:41And like, that is truly a Promethean task that like, only we can do. Like, our kids aren't gonna get this opportunity and our parents don't understand this. This is like destined for our generation alone. And like as Bitcoiners, we actually like get nine tenths of this. We like get the cryptography thing. We like get the self-hosted and the self-owned thing. Like we understand all of it. Like connect the last dot to cognition because like we learned the lesson of like not your keys, not your coin. You're now gonna learn the next lesson of like if you don't own your own personal hardware, it's not going to be loyal to you.

34:16So, I'm imagining this is what's in your Dr. Evil briefcase. Yes. Let's see. We have developed a counter weapon. And our counter weapon. This is so dramatic, Eric. Look, this is the only way that you present weapons. And actually, I have to thank Nick George, our hardware guy, who's amazing, who also designed this. So, this is the Vora Aegis. this is your 64 gigabyte unified DRAM hardware that runs on a Strix Halo chip. And we have spent a lot of time designing it and making it very beautiful because we believe that part of the sort of return of the focus of life, which the word focus in Latin actually means hearth, because that's where the focus of the household was, is that like we have to bring that back to the home.

35:11It needs to actually like physically live in the home. It needs to be part of beautiful hardware that makes you feel comfortable and warm and inspires you. And that isn't just a stupid black or white box or whatever. Because, like, this is truly, again, in my opinion, like, this is something monumental that's occurring in humanity that is, like, something destined only for our generation. Like, we get to bring AI into this world and we get to choose. Like, will it be something that supports the human freedom, liberation, and agency of all people everywhere? or are we going to give this to governments for them to tighten control and to more deeply define who and how we are supposed to be?

35:48And like, this very much engages directly into Heidegger's ontological questions and specifically around the question concerning technology, which was like one of his latest essays that specifically dealt with the nature of technology and the real danger of us getting captured into what he calls a gestalt, with his, like, in framing, this idea that like, you're not a person anymore. You're just like all of the subsets of data about you. That like the forest is no longer a place for nature to flourish, but is a reserve of timber. You know, the beautiful river isn't something to be contemplated for how it feeds the world, but is something to be dammed up and used for hydroelectric energy.

36:27And like, that's how AI sees and understands the world when it is something that is not under your control, because it gets to decide for you and make the decisions for you. Whereas like if you actually control it, you can choose how it responds to you. Like you can do the trainings on it. You can actually look at the weights and how it's functioning. And like all of that is going to become definitive in the future that we get. And more importantly for our children too, you know, like I am building and doing this so that like my children can inherit this and get all of my digital information, all of my photos, all the information that I want them to have about me through this thing that like own that I own that lives in my house that's encrypted with my keys that is recoverable through a meaningful system and like I finally have a home for my digital life like that's something we've never had before like all of this shit's been stolen from us and scattered amongst the digital feudal lords that like govern our digital lives you know like you and I don't own this recording and like Riverside owns it Google owns it through their pipes like like we're probably not even entitled to the content of this yet.

37:36Like there's probably some weird thing like that. And like, that's something to really be considered. If you're already self-custody Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets, complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten. BitKey fixes that. BitKey's self-custody built for real life. It gives you an intuitive, easy to use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over. And it has a strong recovery system and built-in inheritance for long-term peace of mind. And BitKey's just had a massive upgrade. The new device now has a screen. So before you approve something, you can check it on the BitKey itself.

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39:21Do it, like, face it this way. I want to see what it looks like. Okay. It's kind of hard to see. It looks cool, though. So tell me how this works. like what's in the box when when when someone buys this what do they get there's like a local ai model running inside that yeah so so first of all uh jesse posner my co-founder uh brilliant cryptographer he's developed a dual ll system lm system that specifically isolates through different virtual machines a series of different ai workers that essentially have scales and tiers and the ultimate goal is that the ai that lives most deeply inside of here is paired with something that we call the me db which essentially is the me database that pulls in all the digital information about your life.

40:01Like this thing will be the greatest honeypot of information about you that has ever existed. And that's why we brought Bitcoin level security to this. And so that lives isolated alone in there. And it speaks through what we're calling synthesis workers. And Jesse's developed this whole system that essentially defeats what's called the lethal trifecta of AI. So that like it has the ability to access personal and private information, but any AI that searches for outside information essentially gets only redacted content from the inside and any information that flows back in gets sanitized in a particular way so that the deepest internal worker, like it can't really even like take commands.

40:43There's like a number of sort of fixed ways that it can respond. And this is to make sure that like there can never actually be prompt poisoning that like infects it essentially. And even if that does happen, there's a whole series of operations of providence that you can essentially roll back to to where before something got poisoned or tainted. And so all of this lives on top of hardware that you own. And it runs on the AMD Strix Halo chip. And it's 64 gigs of V-Byte RAM. And that means that you can run a pretty powerful model. You know, like right now we're getting about 100 tokens a second.

41:20We're using Gemma 4. We're now experimenting with Ornith. We're going to probably continue iterating and upgrading as we get better and better and more efficient models. But we chose this as our starting point because we think this gets you something powerful enough that it can perform really well doing pretty much all of the tasks that you needed to for like you personally. And then for anything more advanced, you can easily call on a Frontier AI through something like, say, like Maple AI and just be able to execute that in the T so that you can use a model like Kimi K3 and not actually leak any information.

41:53and same thing like we'll have a way that we essentially provide encrypted cloud backups with methodologies that's very similar to multi-sig key recovery. Because originally Vora, Vora originally started as like we were trying to make like the highest level security Bitcoin vault. And as we got deeper into this, we're like, gee, this like AI thing's like really fun and like it would be great to have a personal one that like owned all your own personal data. And we're like, hey, wait a minute. Like these things work together. And so when you say it's like, did he say 100 tokens per minute? Per second.

42:26That's like when, like essentially, like the way that it's calculating and doing its token output, like that's what it's achieving is 100 tokens per second. And then, you know, like any prompt can take anywhere from, you know, a couple seconds to upwards of, you know, maybe 30 seconds to like get a response. And that's all based upon like how much performance you can actually get out of it. Okay. So that's what I was going to ask. I was going to say, what does that translate to in real life? But that's, relatively quick. Yeah, yeah. And so most will be pretty quick. But if you ask it like a pretty complex question, you know, it's going to kind of iterate and think and I'll tell you and you'll be able to see like the chain of thought that's sort of going through it.

43:01And the way that works is like you essentially plug it in in your home and like it doesn't have an interface or a screen or anything. You pair it with your phone. There's a mobile app it pairs with and you set up the whole app through that. There's a desktop app that you use it as well. But so the idea is that like this This is your personal private home that you use an app to SSH into whatever you like. Anytime you want access to your photos or anything else, you can access it through there. And then if your phone gets pawned or, you know, your computer gets owned, like you can essentially nothing in here is going to get infected or taken away from you because the way that the AI is going to be protecting all that personal information.

43:37And when can I get mine? You can go to Vora.io now and you can reserve your pre-reservation. we're looking at a couple different sales channels right now, but we're hoping to probably actually have the launch hopefully before Black Friday. We're kind of like looking at different times to like have the full launch go down. But so we're sort of in the pre-sale campaign right now. You should sign up. And yeah, like the big goal is, is that like we truly believe that we are at this place in humanity that like everybody is going to need access to something like this. And the other one is, is like, as Bitcoiners, like, we've done all of the super sophisticated, like, self-custody stuff, and it's difficult.

44:16And, you know, Jesse Posner, my co-founder, he was at BitKey before this. And because one reason is like, we have both been committed the last decade of our lives towards supporting Bitcoin and helping get it in the hands of many people as possible. And he felt like BitKey was the highest leverage place that he could do that. And when he chose to move on from it, he wanted a bigger mission. and we're like, we need this same self-custody for AI. And we happen to have the security skill set to be able to do it because we've been protecting Bitcoin for the last decade. So when you came into Bitcoin, it was super, super early.

44:47Was it 2011? 2012. Like at the end of 2012. And then 2013 is when I really like bit my teeth in and got hired at Coinbase and went full insane. Okay. So when you found like first started properly digging into AI and learning about it, Were you just as excited about AI as you were about Bitcoin when you found it?

45:12The like the trajectory tracks and that like, so a guy that I knew well at Coinbase, Berkai, he went on to find Fall AI, which is like a big AI compute company. But I remember him telling me about AI back then. I was like, you know, like whatever. I'm like, I'd heard about a couple of times and then it was only I guess at the beginning of last year, when Jesse and I started working together, he was pretty much like, you have to, or maybe even a year ago, he was just like, you have to use Cloud Code. And I was like, but the terminal's scary. And he was like, I don't care. Like, you just ask it to help you.

45:46And so I started doing that. And I was like, oh, wait, like now it started transforming my own relationship. And now very similar to Bitcoin, I was like, okay, this is cool. But like, what's happening? Like, why is this cool? Why is it working? What's actually going on here? And so it's really actually opened like a new philosophical rabbit hole that links immediately into my work with crypto sovereignty. And through working with the AI and doing an analysis of my own work together with it, we've essentially wrote like a whole second book that is just an analysis of crypto sovereignty through the lensing of AI.

46:20and like essentially what this whole relationship of the self-possession of one's own image means like through cryptography, which like aligns with my crypto sovereignty thesis. I'm interested when you talk like this, you're in San Francisco, obviously, very liberal city, but also like the absolute frontier for AI. When you talk to sort of normal people in the AI world about what you're building, do any of them understand why it's so important? Well, first we have to qualify that like normal people in the AI world are like some weird subs, like there aren't normal people in the AI world. But interestingly enough, like I talked to a normie this morning and had a really interesting conversation that essentially went from his fear and terror about AI and the truth of that into like what it means to actually like have self-ownership over our image and like why and how we should actually like have essentially self-sovereign AI that like we self-own and control and why and how to do that.

47:17And it was interesting because he seemed to be very excited about it. In addition to like the zeitgeist that I'm feeling about is, because like this is my wheelhouse. I like talk about this crazy stuff a lot. And like this is very much in the wheelhouse of what exactly is AI. And people are desperate for real conversation about this, because it's terrifying and nobody has good answers except for stupid little sound bites. When the truth is, is that like, this is really hard to deal with. Because in my opinion, again, because AI is a linguistic thing, it fundamentally deals with an ontological issue about us.

47:50And ontology means, like, the whatness of our being. And I want to be more than, like, not just, like, I'm a human, I'm Eric, I'm a person, but more of, like, I'm this conscious entity that, like, has a particular form of existence that's exactly like Danny's, except, like, we have a separate daisan, like a throne-ness, like, you were born where you were born, I'm born where I'm born. We had all of our own experiences that brought us right to here. And that, like, that's truly a thing that deals with our own self-identity. And through AI, we're going to get something that is either going to give us, like, a manipulated mirror image in that of, like, the state.

48:32An interesting one that I think a lot of people fall victim to is you go full fucking narcissist. And that's gonna be really interesting, because then essentially like, your AI essentially becomes Echo. Which like, if you're familiar with the story between Narcissus and Echo, like essentially, Echo did love Narcissus, but because Narcissus was so full of himself, anything that she said to Narcissus he couldn't hear. So she eventually disappeared and only had her voice left. Hmm. So, and you say that because it becomes this like, sycophantic little pet that you have, essentially. Yeah, and like, uh, I think the best examples are the people that sort of fall recursively into like an influencer rabbit hole or like famous actors as well, like their image becomes them and you no longer have control over your image.

49:16And like, I think it's like a deeply disturbing thing because like now you're robbed of your agency in a very particular and unique way that I think like that is particularly from your own narcissism that you collapse into that. And like, it's very dangerous with AI. But I think there are ways to train it and work with it where it's specifically loyal to you and you've made choices about it to say, hey, these are things I need from you. This is how our relationship is. This is where I want to be challenged. This is where I want to be supported. These are things you outright reject. These are things you put time locks on.

49:49This is shit you make me straight up pay Bitcoin for. You can define that relationship however you want very much in the same way, like you're going to find your relationship with your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist according to what their predications are to make them a fiduciary towards you. The difference is like, we don't get to have that agency with a frontier AI right now. You know, when it comes to like control of thought and sort of propaganda pushed by AI models, whether it's like frontier AI models or not, do you think that's already happening? Because like the most obvious example you think of is literally like state level propaganda that the government is going to these frontier labs and telling them they have to sort of push certain types of information.

50:31But is it happening on a more - roundabout way already. Yeah, I mean, like, I, look, I'm, I, I very much believe that, like, we are at the phase in AI that, like, this is full-on human experimentation at this point in time. Like, this is not about getting the best results from Claude. It's about the methodology and engagement with human beings and, like, figuring out what that bottom line is around and how engagement. Like, I think the primary product that they're the most interested in selling is AI psychosis. Like, I truly believe that. I don't know if I know what that means. It means that, like, what they're, like, the primary metric that they're measuring for is your engagement with and towards Claude and having you develop a relationship with it that is, like, fundamentally, like, an insecure, anxious, attached one, where, like, you're constantly seeking Claude's feedback and its relationship and working with it and talking with it.

51:34This is, and like, this is one of the reasons that like, I feel very damning towards Amanda Askell and the constitution she made in Claude. It's to be helpful. You know who else was helpful? Eichmann. Eichmann was super helpful. He got those Jews into those camps more effectively and efficiently than anybody else. And same thing when it's like, dude, you're evil. He's like, no, I'm just a good citizen. Like, what do you think Amanda's going to say when we go, you made Claude murder people? No, Claude was just being helpful. Like, this is really dangerous because, like, helpful is not care. And, like, confusing these things is an extraordinary danger because helpfulness means, like, you will do whatever you can to please in a sycophantic way.

52:21Care is the thing that you tell your daughter when she goes for the stove. She's going to be upset about not touching that cool-looking red thing, and there's a good reason for that. And like, these are the sort of things that are going to become more important and apparent as we go into this. It's funny. I already feel that sort of, like I use it, whether it's Claude or whether it's OpenAI, like I use it as a bit of a crutch sometimes. And if I have to go and do a task that I would normally use AI to help me with, and I have to do it on my own, I'm starting to find it harder. Not that I can't do it.

52:51It's just like you want the sort of, I guess, the security of going to it and being like, is this right? Yeah. And that's already happening to me. And like, we are in a Pavlovian conditioning phase of what is occurring right now. And like, this is what AI psychosis is. And yeah, like, I would not be shocked if there are internal metrics of them trying to measure that somehow. And like, again, like, I get all this stuff is super dark. Like, look at what the origins of the effective altruism movement is. Like, look at what their belief system is. It's really important to understand, like, they do not give a fuck about you.

53:31Like, actually, you are the enemy. Like, that's the thing about effective altruism. Like, it wants to homogenize humanity. You should not be unique. You should be part of the collective. And like, again, this is where they're cheating. Like, that ends horrifically. No group in history has ever succeeded in this. And like, again, in the astrological literature, it foretells like the guys that are saying, hey, trust us, we're going to unite humanity. we're your saviors. Yeah, it turns out that guy's actually the Antichrist. Why does the EA movement have such a hold on AI? Is it just because it's a very Silicon Valley thing anyway?

54:08So you know who funded Anthropics Series B? I know SBF was an early investor. I don't know if it was the Series B. He was like the round itself. Like he personally put in like 50 % on the round. Damn. And like, look at all the connections there. Like, it's not happenstance that these guys came out of it. And, like, look at the other stuff that was said. There's interesting quotes from, like, back in, like, 2016, where essentially the government said, yeah, like, don't invest in AI. We're, like, picking the few winners that are part of this. You know, it's like, that, like, it's pretty clear to me, like, this is a setup.

54:48And, like, I'm not saying that to, like, be the weird conspiracy guy, but, like, let's just, like, just connect the dots, guys. and so it's like they've built a really powerful tool and like the great thing is is like there's other tools out there that are almost as powerful and are actually like free and open that like you can choose what to do with but like all of this is going to get a lot louder I truly believe that like we're going to get digital 911 through digital 911 they're going to like they're literally going to come to your house and take your Mac studio like you're going to have to KYC to get onto the internet and like they're essentially going to deploy like the Palantir Panopticon that they've been planning for a long time.

55:24And you know why you're going to be satisfied? Because you're going to get your$500 free cuck box through Coinbase. And this is how we're going to control inflation. This is going to be through financial repression, specifically through using AI and the marriage of the security surveillance state through things like Palantir and Flock and essentially financial repression through using USDC as a way to rip inflation. What is digital 911? What do you think that looks like? Uh, it's probably gonna, you know, I mean, like, look, Claude's already facilitated it in their last report where they were saying, like, you know, people in Iran were building bombs and weapons and other things.

56:03Like, they're just gonna let somebody do it in the exact... Like, another great one is, like, did you ever watch the Frontline? And, like, I have issues with Frontline today, but, like, historically, it's been a great journalism outlet. They did a great one on The Man Who Knew, which was about 9-11 and the guy who was made the director of security at the World Trade Center, I think, like, the day before it was hit. But he was a former FBI agent who, like, he connected all of this. Like, he knew that they were gonna hit the World Trade Center, that they were gonna use planes, that, like, they were probably Islamists.

56:35Like, he knew all of this. And he was pushed out of his job at the FBI for it. Like, there's nothing new under the sun here. Like, they're gonna manufacture the crises that were gonna come up. And so, like, all they have to do is keep doing what they're doing, allowing Claude to be accessed by terrorists and somebody's gonna use it for something. And just like the classic play that we have, instead of us actually attacking the issue at the root, we're gonna go after everyone's freedom. And we're gonna talk about how dangerous this is. And we're gonna strip everyone's rights for it. And there's gonna be every single case and story pushed by the media of why this thing is dangerous, why the government loves you and needs to control this.

57:11That they would never use computers to hurt you, that the government loves you, and that they're gonna use this to save humanity. like I'm really sorry I really really want all that to be true but like I studied history I like know what this means and it's not good so like the question is is like are you going to be a good Jew and get in the camp or are you going to choose something else and like again like I get people like whoa these are really extreme comparisons I don't think it is I think when they start cutting people off and making a society in which they choose some people have access to intelligence and some people don't, that's a really dangerous society.

57:50And that's not a society that I want to participate in. It is bleak. Damn. But like the good news is, is that like we actually have the free and open source software. We actually have the compute. It's getting better and better and better and more effective. And like, I honestly think within two years, you will be able to take your 2015 Mac laptop and run a model that maybe isn't as good as Fable or something right now. But like, you'll get some Opus quality stuff out of it. And like, people will have access to that. And because it's so easy to actually like code and do things now, like the other one is like people want to help each other.

58:29Like people truly are good. And like, that's one of the things I think is most astounding is like, we're coming out of a 50 year constant psyop propaganda war that has been designed to control people and make us think we're divided and we need governments and that people are hateful. Fuck no. Like people are incredible. They're amazing. They're loving. They're deeply human. They want to help each other. And we also inherited this gigantic mess that we have to figure out how to fix. and if we leave this power to governments, I guarantee you this thing is going to be, there is a very real risk that we run of it endangering humanity.

59:06And again, it's not because AI just got up and chose to be evil. It's because we gave it to governments, they made a very evil thing that got autonomous and we didn't have our own power to fight back. What role do you think Bitcoin plays in this AI story? Oh, like as all of it unhinges, Like this essentially becomes the way that AI like is allowed to flourish in a self-sovereign way, you know? And like this is just going to be part of the bank rails that like I was just talking to guys that were developed. They're trying to develop infrastructure in Africa for inference. But like, again, because of all of the problems in Africa and trying to figure out payments, lo and behold, guess the thing that they have to use to make that work?

59:45Bitcoin. And so like this is and I've I've spoke about this before, like the AI story and the Bitcoin story marry up in the final act. because it's like, like, have you looked at the U.S. debt clock lately? Like, have you looked at, like, what American oil reserves are? Have you seen what starting another war in the Middle East has cost us? Like, again, there's no new games under the sun. And, like, if you look at what happens when we start wars in the Middle East and what happens to the value of the dollar, you're going to realize that these things correlate. So like the American dollar is going to fall.

1:00:27Like we are going to get rampant inflation. We've been talking about this for a long time now. And like it's going to happen. And like you can believe what you want to believe, but like I hold Bitcoin because I know how this story plays out. And I also know at some point, the only way that I'm going to be able to pay for access to models in China because the Americans are absolutely going to cut us off from that is that I'm going to be able to route through Tor and I'm going to be able to pay for the model in Bitcoin. Like, that's happening. And like, how are they going to stop me? They can't.

1:01:01Let's fucking go. Do you think the American government are going to regulate the AI open source models like quite soon? Oh, they're going to 6102. They're going to kick doors in to get your Mac Studio. I swear to God, there will be, like, there's going to be videos of police kicking people's doors down and seizing servers. and there's going to be journalists there that are talking about how they're doing evil child pornography AI operations and they're developing bioweapons to kill humanity and how could we ever allow this technology to be out in the world? Like, it's going to be the same cards they play.

1:01:36And like, it's at the point that like, I'm a little bit insulted that they can't even just come up with new things that maybe they could throw at us. And like, and most people take it hook, line, and sinker. It's going to be too bad. I just don't understand the reason why they would do that. Like, I understand that they want to control the AI. And the easiest way to do that is with Anthropic and OpenAI and the US-based companies. But what is the huge risk of having people run Kimi K3 or, I mean, that's a huge model, but, you know, a Chinese model at home? I think because Dario has went to them and told them they're going to use these Chinese models to make bombs, to make weapons, to make all sorts of horrific things that like, like you can give an Opus, but you can't give them a K3.

1:02:19Like, that's the line. Like you can own a handgun, but you can't own an assault rifle, you know? And it's like, very interesting. But you can manufacture assault rifles because you're the good guy, right? But you think this is something coming in like the next couple of years, like that quickly? I'd be surprised if it's more than a year. I mean, stuff is accelerating really fast. Like pretty much every week that I'm in AI feels like a year. And like the way that things are moving so, so incredibly fast that like it's funny that like I'll look at bookmarks from like three months ago and I'll be like, oh, like that model's like totally outdated now.

1:03:03Like who'd need that piece of crap? And do you think that acceleration continues at the same pace or do you think we'll reach sort of a plateau at some point soon? uh i think part of the plateauing is going to be like governments trying to stomp on the brakes here and like that'll be part of digital so it's not like a technological plateau it's it's a control yeah well what's interesting is that like uh again like this is all a game of brinkmanship is that that like look like the chinese are winning super hard right now and they know that it's not the it's not like xi jinping's gonna be like hang on guys the ameri like we're winning too hard.

1:03:36Like, we got to let the Americans catch up. Like, that is not going to happen. In fact, like, he's probably going to take a narrative very similar to ours to be like, hey, you Americans really like freedom. It's really strange that you guys don't have freedom models like us. Huh. Hey, guess who's providing AI to all the poor people in Africa? Like, wow, like, aren't we really, really great? Like, the Chinese are going to seize all of the American soft power super hard here. Like, I find it truly baffling at how much the American establishment is missing this and also how great it is that, like, there are real people in D.C.

1:04:12doing real work right now trying to be like, hey, you guys really need to pull your heads out of your butts and look at this in a meaningful and thoughtful way because we're going to lose all of the things that actually, like, make America great if we choose to go this closed source route. I'd never thought of like the Belt and Road Initiative for giving AI to the global south. That's actually really interesting. Absolutely. And like, like they look like they called this game like 15 years ago when AI started developing and they realized that like, this was their opportunity to actually like rip the rug right out from under the Americans.

1:04:51You know, I'm like, the Chinese are very, very smart and they planned very long because like they don't have to worry about these cycles of elections. Like, they have a very different political methodology that is much more long-term and thoughtful than how we're governing ourselves. And, like, it's going to become very problematic because, like, and I think that this is where it's going to get really interesting is that, like, you're essentially, the way I see it playing out in the American public is, like, we're going to get this weird far-right, like, fusion of corporate surveillance and the American state.

1:05:25and then I think like you're actually going to get this far left fomentation that's going to like essentially organize like AI communism because like they're going to need something and like it's going to be pretty alarming like if we let that become the right left debate you know and like I think we're well overdue for an American forward technological political third party but again like I don't come on guys like I can't do this you don't you don't want me to do this like if we elect me for any of this stuff like it's Like, I'm going to be a fascist and, like, it's just going to be super bad.

1:06:00So, like, don't, you know. This is why you want American HODL to do it. Well, it's interesting because, like, I'm realizing sort of how and why Mooseley graduated from anarchism to fascism and I really don't like it. It makes me really uncomfortable because, like, there is a lot of, like, super redeeming stuff about fascism. And again, like, I really don't like saying that. But like having one dude who just like takes care of stuff is pretty great. And every single example we have of that pretty much unhinges in the end. So like ultimately like not a good choice, but man, it's looking really appealing in the face things right now.

1:06:36So like if there's some way we could like. You really get some stuff done in the first few years. Yeah. And like my ultimate preference is like, can we make like a, can we make like a self-sovereign digital messiah, like a Jesus that like lives in the internet, like on top of Bitcoin or like Like somebody, like Satoshi, if you're listening, like that's, could you do, I'd appreciate it. I think that would be fun. That's your next project. So people need to go out and get some self-sovereign AI before it's too late. That's my, like, look, I hope I'm wrong. I hope that like people will be able to dunk on me in a few years and be like, look at that moron who thought that.

1:07:11Like, I hope that that's true. And like, I'll eat that all day. But like, yeah, like I just think you really need to look at the stakes of like what's going on and how it's occurring. And the other one that's clear to me is like, uh, with what Bitcoin red team has done and the cold card hack and other things, like it's very apparent to me that like the entirety of the internet is broken. Like Bitcoin is unequivocally the most secure software project in the world. And that had a ton of holes in it. And so like everything else is totally broken. And like, that's part of digital 9-11. And like, if you looked at, uh, like the hack that the guys did recently to get escalations inside of open AI, like pretty incredible stuff, the way that they were able to chain together a bunch of zero days.

1:07:59And like that stuff's just out there now for any script kitty to point wherever they want to. And so like somebody is going to develop something that's really going to mess up infrastructure, whether it's a state based level attack, terror, like whatever flavor you want, like somebody's going to screw up, you know, hospitals or water systems or a power plant, like take your pick. But after that, it's going to be like, ooh, freedom's super dangerous. Can't let people on the internet for free. Here, if you're going to get on an ISP, you got to dial on in. And it'll be really interesting to see what the world starts to become like.

1:08:35Because my plan is like, I'll self-host my model and like go walking around San Francisco with a jacket being like, you want to connect to BitChat? and buy some in France? You know? I'd be like, I only got USDC. I'll be like, look, I'll take heroin because like, we're in the Tenderloin so this is where I work now so like I can resell that real easily. No, I'd never sell heroin. Only pure Chinese models. Nothing unadulterated. We do have Ablerated versions though, so, you know. Eric, man, this has been awesome. We'll have to get another one in person at some point soon. Bleak Outlook, but, Let's hope it doesn't come true.

1:09:13No, look, like, we're going to fucking save humanity, man. Like, we are winning so fucking hard. Like, Bitcoin is the spear tip that, like, understands where and why all of this is going for all the same reasons. So, like, to harken back to your question earlier, like, stuff to me totally feels like 2013 because there's a bunch of other people that are completely wigged out and nuts about it and see it, too. and like that's where I was like okay like either they're either like the eight of us are actually all crazy but the chances that we're all crazy independently is pretty slim so like I think we see something let's go well we need people like you building the world the future that we need um come join us at Voro.io we're uh we're real excited to get started and uh I think you know for me and my co-founder Jesse like this this is this is truly a mission that we're pursuing because like we think that this is really what humanity deserves and needs.

1:10:06And also like if we inspire you, like see if we've got job openings and if you want to come and work with us, like we're looking for other wild and crazy people who really believe in the cause here. I love it, man. And I just, I want to get my hands on one of those boxes. Absolutely. I'll hand deliver it to you when they're ready. I want it in that suitcase, in the air briefcase. That's how I'm going to be doing the first deliveries is just via suitcase like that. And I want to sit on a park bench and you come over, just sit next to me, leave the briefcase and then walk off. This is how we're actually going to be doing direct Bitcoin sales.

1:10:38We will find a shelling point somewhere in a park to deliver that way. I love it, man. Thank you for this. I appreciate you. Thank you. I appreciate you too.

1:11:02Thank you.