Everyone Was Wrong About This Cycle | Andy Edstrom

29:36They got on the software is eating the world side of the boat, which wasn't wrong fundamentally. But there's also the ESG narrative, putting people off owning the oil stocks and things like that. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. I was sitting at lunch with a guy I've known for years who works at a kind of a value focused mutual fund and they are heavy commodities and they'd been banging the drum for a while and they were arguably early, but that was one of the things we talked about. Yeah, it was evil to own companies that produced carbon, right? Carbon-based energy. So yeah, so that reshuffling, you know, has been happening in a big way.

30:20Now, going forward, you know, I'm of two minds on it. It's moved so far so fast that sort of looks overbought at the moment. So I'm not the guy pounding the table like, you know, go buy oil stocks right now or go buy commodity assets right now. But then you have the broader super cycle or call it 20 year cycle that tends to play out in commodities. Speaking of historical patterns that someday might not be the case, but remain, The track record remains unbroken. You have these longer cycles in commodities whereby there's some big demand. Last time it was China, basically. China was hoovering up all the metal and all the cement and all the materials as they built their economy.

31:08And then eventually they got sufficiently built or overbuilt and then supply responded. Right. This, of course, is different than Bitcoin. But with most commodities, more supply comes online as the price goes up. So then you get overinvestment and then you get a crash in the price of the commodity being produced. And then it's a long bear market and then underinvestment. And then there's some there's some catalyst from the demand side that restarts the whole thing. It seems like right now the catalyst from the demand side is both AI right in a major way, obviously the build out. Plus the geopolitics, which is rearmament, you know, reindustrialization.

31:49And this is across the world, right? I mean, it's the U.S., of course, but it's also Japan is, you know, the sleeping giant. Godzilla's waking up as we speak. And there's all these areas around the world where societies and their governments are figuring out that they need to allocate capital differently. And one of the places they need to allocate that capital is to industry. And that's probably got legs. So I look at the short term and I say, would I be rushing to buy commodities assets like right now today? Maybe not necessarily. But do I think it has legs over at least several year time horizon?

32:32I think probably. And then, Danny, there's another factor here, which is scenario analysis. So, okay, sorry, I own more than one asset. I don't just own Bitcoin, right? I have a portfolio. Why do I have a portfolio? Well, one of the reasons I have a portfolio is because I want to own stuff that does well in certain scenarios that might not be high probability, but those scenarios are scenarios in which other assets I might own get whacked. So I think about war, basically. And obviously, we've already got the Ukraine situation. We've already got stuff going on in the Middle East. But I'm talking about a major escalation or a standoff in Taiwan or actual hot war between the U.S.

33:15and China, something along those lines. And in that scenario, many assets get taken to the cleaners. But you better believe that oil and gas and other commodities are going to be in demand. We haven't electrified the U.S. military just yet. And so, yeah, industrial inputs are a major factor in that type of a scenario. And that's the type of scenario where a lot of other assets could lose purchasing power. And by the way, that's a scenario where I don't know what happens with Bitcoin, at least in the short term. You know, some would argue, OK, demand goes up, you know, because more people will be fleeing whatever jurisdiction they're in.

33:59they pile into Bitcoin so they can move assets or they pile into Bitcoin because, you know, other things are going down. Maybe that could happen that way or it could happen. I don't think so. A different way, right? It could be that demand goes down. It could be that for reasons of national security, the buy button on Coinbase has been disabled temporarily. You know, things of that nature. I mean, we know that the like Nija quick reaction will be Bitcoin crashes. Like it happens every time as a major geopolitical event. Like when the US bombed Iran, Bitcoin price crashed. Like the same thing would happen, I'm sure.

34:35I mean, longer term, if it was something that played out over weeks and months, I don't know. But I know on the announcement, Bitcoin will be crashing. Probably pre-announcement because it's a prediction market. I think that's a good bet. Good bet, Danny. But I want to know, like you said you were in the precious metal trade, got out of silver at a decent price. Like, when do you start rolling money back into Bitcoin as a wealth manager? Because we are now down pretty significantly. Like, how do you think this bear market plays out? Yeah, that's a great question. And I struggle with it daily. OK, so, yes, Bitcoin is for me and for clients, one of those assets that's a strategic core holding.

35:21OK, gold is, too, by the way. In other words, the world would have to change a lot fundamentally for me to not want to hold Bitcoin, to not want to hold gold. And then most other major asset classes are also fundamental core holdings in some amount. Talking about U.S. stocks as an example. Like, am I ever going to own zero U.S. stocks? Probably not. I'll probably get more selective about which ones I own. and I'm probably less likely to go market cap weighted because although that's worked really well for more than a decade, we might be in the later innings. We might have already passed the peak on that situation.

36:04And so, yeah, so then the question is you're getting at is, well, yeah, at the margin, you know, maybe around the core holding, when are you getting greedy, right? um not yet i guess is my short answer um you know i think that uh you had joe i think you had joe consorti on recently i think he was yeah i can't remember was he calling for a three handle or something or maybe four he said he thinks we might hit 40 yeah yeah and that's entirely possible like that would not surprise me at all but equally i'm not gonna bet like i probably don't put greater than 50 % chance on that. That's probably a less than 50 % chance scenario for me.

36:44By the way, another, yeah, just a reminder, always think in terms of percentages and uncertainties, right? Nothing is certain, nothing is certain in this world. Not even death anymore, I reckon, but we'll see how that goes. Taxes, possibly, possibly. So, yeah, so, so like, is Bitcoin stupid cheap yet? In my experience, based on my experience, no, it's not stupid cheap yet. If you have no Bitcoin, like, should you be buying? Yeah, you should be buying. If you're under allocated, should you be buying? Yeah, probably. I mean, DCA works as a general principle by definition because you buy more coins when price is down and you buy fewer coins when price is up.

37:38I'm talking about DCA in dollar terms and fiat terms. And so, you know, that's kind of always a good idea. But yeah, we're still, I'm still of the mind that it is a bear market, most likely feels that way. I'm still of the mind that bear markets are about both price and time. So we've had quite a bit of pain on price. We haven't had that much time yet. And we haven't really had ultimate pain on price either. I sort of think you have to believe that this time is different, which it might be to think that the bottom or to have confidence around the bottom being in so my guess is no probably the bottom is not yet in but i don't have confidence in that uh and you know like a bitcoin nuked to yeah to four handle something in the 40s now would i want to be buying that in size yeah probably i would what if you could lower your tax bill and stack bitcoin at the same time well by mining bitcoin with blockware you can New tax guidelines from the Big Beautiful Bill allow American miners to write off 100 % of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year.

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41:13Like I always tell people to ignore anything I ever say about the price because like really I've got no skin in the game in some ways because I'm not selling Bitcoin. Like even if like you'd have told me the problem, like in November when you started saying we're getting close to the top, I still wasn't thinking about selling because like I just don't. I just buy and hold Bitcoin. And like when we hit 62, I think I put a bit of money back in like because I'm obviously i have cash flow so i have money coming in all the time so like i am buying at these prices i've seriously upped my dca um and i wouldn't be shocked if 60k was a bottom but i also wouldn't be shocked if it goes lower like this is bitcoin weird things happen but like the one thing i am still convinced about is that we are seriously undervalued at these levels in my opinion and like i i have just this like maybe maybe this is pure coat but i think this time might be different like i wouldn't be surprised if the economy runs really hot in 2026 and we do see bitcoin go back up to like near all-time highs it wouldn't shock me either uh if that happens and that'll be great i own bitcoin that'll be great um and yeah you know this is the the fundamental question is well first of all i like your statement about you know stacking harder dc 'ing harder i think that's a rational approach you're never going to catch the bottom that's pretty much impossible.

42:32You're never going to catch the top either. I mean, I didn't catch the top. I never caught the top. Um, uh, and so, yeah, you have to kind of, I think, uh, checkmati on your show recently framed it well. Yeah. Stacking harder, you know, kind of being in really harder of accumulation mode, you know, having some dry powder, the amount of dry powder is different for different people. And, uh, you know, if you're comfortable having no dry powder and literally putting every incremental fiat dollar or Aussie dollar or whatever that you earn into this thing, more power to you. You're built differently than I am.

43:13Maybe you're a better human. I know some of you out there. Some of my friends are literally every dollar they make, they put into BTC and they just don't think about it. It's not for me. And each of us has different life circumstances. But yeah, stacking harder at, stacking harder as a general principle when price is down by half, in the long run, that's likely to work. That's likely to work very well. One of the things you, you sent across some notes before this show. And one of the things you put in there was that you don't think anyone should be all in Bitcoin. I am all in Bitcoin. Like this is basic, like apart from a very small amount of cash, like the business has cash.

43:57It also has Bitcoin, but it has some cash because I have expenses there. But like personally, I basically have no money in the bank. It's like all Bitcoin. Why do you think that's a bad decision? Because this actually gets back to the savings idea a little bit. Because while Bitcoin is not great savings, if you buy it, you know, if you'd have bought 126k, like and now we're at 65, whatever, like that's not been a great savings vehicle. But I've been buying Bitcoin since like 2016. So these price drops don't really, like it still kind of behaves as savings to me because we're still way above my cost basis.

44:31So given enough time, does Bitcoin become savings? Interesting. Interesting framing. Okay. First, I'm going to defend myself. I said it makes being all in makes no sense for almost anyone, almost anyone. Okay. I hedged my language as I usually do, Danny, because, you know, like nothing's a hundred percent, right? There are, there are rare superhumans in the world like you and my hat is off to you. If that makes sense for you, except for I think you also said you were stacking extra hard in the downturn. So I'm not sure those things can both be true. How can you stack extra hard if... Little dividends from the company, that's how.

45:08Okay. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Well, anyway, yeah, I think it's true that for some people who are early enough where their average cost basis is so much lower than the purchase price, then yeah, it's gone great for you. You've lived, there's two things there. First of all, not only are you way above your cost basis, your average cost basis, but also you've been forged in the, you've been forged in the fire of Bitcoin bear markets, right? You've already lived through several. So if you've already made it through this many, then yeah, then, then your conviction is ironclad and, and you're probably going to be fine.

45:55And, you know, but also I know, I know a number of people and I'm probably, I mean, I'm definitely in this category, which is I'm bullish on Bitcoin. I had pretty high conviction and success, still I feel pain in the bear market. And then also, you know, the magnitude of the numbers matters for me. So like when I first started stacking, you know, it was a large percent of my net worth, but like it wasn't in absolute dollars. It wasn't all that much really at the time, relatively speaking. You go through a couple cycles and if you stay all in, you know, Pretty soon you're talking about real money, as they say.

46:38And so then the swings in purchasing power can be big. Then the up-down is like, oh, plus or minus a really nice house or whatever else. And so I think different people respond differently. I think some people, when the nominal numbers go up, even though one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin, they have to reckon with the fact that most of the real world in terms of living expenses is denominated in fiat. And so, yeah, losing significant amount of purchasing power, like, you know, years of income, in some cases, decades of income, if you really, you know, if it's really gone up for you, you know, that can weigh on you psychologically, I think.

47:27I think that can weigh on a lot of people psychologically. So, you know, obviously everyone's different. You know, if you got diamond hands and you don't feel pain and you got alligator blood, what's the, I always think of that movie Rounders and the Russian Teddy KGB talking about how Matt Damon's got alligator blood, then you're fine. but uh if you're a mere mortal like me and some of the rest of us then uh you know maybe maybe 100 percent uh isn't necessarily for you and that's okay too that is okay too funnily though like i'm the opposite i even though the number like the dollar number that bitcoin drops for me is higher than it ever has been like i feel less emotionally attached to it than i ever have like the first bear market was way harder for me psychologically than than the one we're going through right now even though the numbers are greater which is i don't know maybe that i think the reason is like buying bitcoin is super easy selling bitcoin is really hard like i can because i have like so much conviction about what bitcoin will be in the future parting with bitcoin becomes a very hard thing like i just don't do it um and like the question is always like what are you selling it for like am i gonna sell bitcoin for more dollars like i don't i don't care like i'm okay holding this for longer like i have conviction that bitcoin price will be higher in the future so like i don't need dollars in my bank account right now it the the like equation changes because like at some point we're gonna buy a nice house and that kind of thing and that at that point i will sell bitcoin but right now like sell it for what is always my question yep and that's where i say yep sorry bitcoiners uh last year i sold some coins and i bought a house well see that's awesome like the the thing like time is more scarce than bitcoin right you need to enjoy your life as well um i do find pressing the sell button impossible yeah you know and there's different it all depends on you know what your asset layout is too i mean i so speaking for myself like you know taxable coins are hard to sell but i did i did sell some and you know took the pain and i'm a California taxpayer.

49:41So let me tell you, it is a lot of pain. And then I have retirement assets and those, there's no cost to trade. And so like, I don't know, not like a lemming, I'm searching for the metaphor, but I look around and I see the world of potential things that I could trade and I don't have to hold them for a long time. I can hold them for a week or a month or a year, or I can hold them for one day. And so, you know, when I have a sense, and by the way, this is not the way to operate for 99.9 % of people. I've been trading markets for whatever, 25 years. So I really don't want to advocate this for people.

50:25But yes, when Bitcoin is in a bull market. Nothing keeps up with it. It's severely undervalued. As a long-term investment, I think it makes sense to have a sizable allocation for most people. And then, yeah, as far as the asymmetry and the variant perception, I think you have to ask yourself. So, for example, when I put out my thesis in 2019, my sense was there was a major variant perception. What does that mean? It means that the average person with money or the average investor or speculator in the world didn't think too much of Bitcoin. And I thought a lot about Bitcoin and my probability of success multiplied by the potential valuation was very different from the markets.

51:21Today, how much, you know, how variant is the perception? Well, it's definitely very variant for some Bitcoiners who think that, I guess, that Bitcoin's going to a million next year. That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea. I think the variants, let's put it this way, a lot more people in the world have done their homework on what Bitcoin's potential value is. So it's probably not a secret or not as much of a secret anymore. Obviously, we know there's all the naysayers. There's Professor Fax Machine, Paul Krugman, and God knows how many who say it's either worthless or going to zero or never going to reach its potential, blah, blah, blah.

52:10And so, yeah, so I guess what I'm saying is I feel like for the first time in a long time, I have a variant perception on more than one asset in a sizable way. And so for me, it makes sense to hold other things. But look, for many people, it probably doesn't make sense. And also for many people, they claim they're all in, but also they own a house. Really, they have other assets that they, I guess, don't think of as investment assets. I do think of the housing stuff as investment assets because, unfortunately, housing has been monetized. And so, you know, there's so much capital there that you kind of have to think about it as an investment, even though you live in the thing and you consume it.

53:01So, yeah, I don't know. I digress. I forgot your original question or comment, but those are a few thoughts. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, One of the other things you put in your notes was around the treasury companies. How much of, actually, I guess there's two questions here. One is, do you think they impacted the bull market in a negative way this time? And how many of them do you think you can survive this bear market? So, yes, I think they impacted the market in a negative way because if the marginal purchasing power coming into Bitcoin is fiat denominated, right, let's say it's dollars. And the question is, is the dollar flowing into Bitcoin or is it flowing into an entity trading at a premium to Bitcoin, right?

53:57Then the entity is absorbing more fiat capital per dollar of Bitcoin purchased than it otherwise would. So, yes, like, you know, like throwing a punch. Just to left curve that, it's like if something's trading at 2x MNav, then you're getting actually half the Bitcoin demand. Yeah, right. Exactly. Well said. You said it much more succinctly than I did. No, I was just trying to figure it out. So I think, yeah, I think that happened. I think that happened. So, yeah. I need to ask a question there because I don't know if that's right. If something's trading at 2XM NAV and you put$100 into that stock, they're still buying$100 of Bitcoin with it.

54:42So why is that negative? I think that if you're putting, they're still buying$100 of Bitcoin. Well, I guess the capital flow, you're selling, I have to think about it, honestly. So let's say you're at the margin and you're some Bitcoiner who owns coins and you're saying, okay, I'm going to sell some coins because I'm going to buy some company that I like because I think it's going to be a higher return on investment. Mostly because I think they're going to raise debt capital efficiently, right? They're going to borrow money from somewhere. That's another factor too. How much of the debt capital funded into these companies otherwise would have bought BTC?

55:34The argument is you're tapping new markets, is that there are investors out there who can only buy convertible debt and they can't buy outright coins or they can't buy the ETF. They can only buy preferreds or some kind of debt instrument. And then obviously, yeah, you had all these convertible issuances, which were, I think, some hedge incremental, there were definitely incremental hedge fund money who were just kind of hedging it out, right? They were saying, you know, I can essentially lock in a profit if I short the right instrument against what I'm long. but yeah I don't know you put me on the spot Danny I have to think about it honestly but I'll follow up with you it seems like it seems like I mean a question is like how do you bid up the stock to a premium like where is that premium coming from at the margin I think maybe the answer is like how does MSTR trade from whatever one times MNAV to three and a half times MNav.

56:49I think it's because there's marginal buyers, there's marginal capital just buying the stock and bidding it up. You know, where did the capital come from? I think that marginal capital into the equity for a lot of people came out of coins. I mean, certainly people I know, you know, sold BTC basically to buy MSTR, but I'd have to think about the math. Yeah, I heard a lot of that as well. That's one of the things that I'd be really curious on the truth in some of this. People always say that these treasury companies, it's like unlocking new pools of capital, especially outside of strategy. I don't know how true that is.

57:25I think this is just Bitcoiners looking to basically get leverage on their Bitcoin. I don't really believe the 20th biggest treasury company is getting real institutional capital coming in. I just don't believe that. 100%. I agree with that take. That's how the market's shaken out. MSTR is sort of a unique beast and the long tail of all these tiny cats and dogs are not size enough, not relevant enough basically to entice real money, institutional money for the most part. Yeah. Do you think next cycle we'll still have a big treasury company pump? Interesting question. So let's take, well, let's parse it out.

58:07Let's take MSTR as an example. How many coins can MSTR buy? How many coins can sale or buy. I think at some point there might be a limit. And I don't just mean because number goes up. And so, you know, for each fiat dollar that they can raise, you know, it doesn't buy as many number of coins. I'm thinking in terms of how big a target gets painted on that pile of coins, when it gets to be, whatever, 5 % of the total outstanding. 10%, it's probably not going to get to 10%, but you take the point. I think that then as an investor, you have to say, well, if governments need to get their hands on a big pile of coins, where are they going to turn?

59:03And then you also get single counterparty risk in general. You know, as an investor, you say, OK, if there's a dominant player in an industry, do I want to own that because dominance is sort of a reflection of a durable monopoly position or ability to over earn? This was part of the, you know, the debate. I don't know, a year and change ago. I remember having a debate. I can't remember who it was, which pot it was. You know, and there were there was a lot of noise about, well, what imagine the things you could do, the mirror, the miraculous, wonderful things with the world's biggest pile of Bitcoin.

59:45And my response was, yes, I imagine. How about just tell me, like, give me an example. There was no concrete, there's like no concrete, you know, actionable ideas about what is actually the implementable business model that uniquely you can capture, you know, because you have more than half a million coins or a million coins or whatever. yeah are there economies to scale there it's not obvious to me at all that there are economies to scale um you know i use the model i think i talked about this on pressed on the on the bear market episode i did with press in which was most of these things are kind of like closed end funds you know they trade at sometimes they traded a premium to book value but oftentimes they trade at a discount.

1:00:35If they're excellent capital allocators, then maybe they trade at some modest premium to book, you know, like Berkshire or Markel Corp or any of these conglomerates. And then if you look at the bank model, you know, really well-managed banks, like exceptionally well-managed banks, sometimes trade at two times book, which is like two times MNav. And if they trade higher than that, you know, that's a, that's a sell. Um, so will there, will a premium come back into the market? Maybe that's a better question. Like if you have, if the question is, will these things trade up if Bitcoin goes up? Well, if they still own Bitcoin, then yeah, hopefully they trade up.

1:01:18If they don't, then we got a real problem. I think the better question is, do they trade to, does the, does the discount go away or does the discount contract a lot? or even does it flip to a premium, I suspect it'll be, I will suspect the discount will contract a lot. So there'll be some point in this cycle where if you can buy these things that, you know, 30, 40, 50 % discounts or whatever, 0.5 MNAV or 0.6 or whatever that is, you know, it's probably going to go pretty well. The real tricky question is, yeah is where do you where does spot go and where does discount go like that's another example like if i saw names that were trading at you know less than 50 or greater than 50 discounts or less than 0.5 m nav then even if i'm bearish on bitcoin spot for a while or i don't have confidence you know that could still go pretty well like as long as the thing doesn't unwind as long as it's not a fraud, then actually you could make a nice trade there.

1:02:31And then the question is, well, is that a trade or is that an investment? And my sense is it's probably a trade. It's like, do you want to be a long-term hodler of XYZ treasury company? I don't. Not really. Yeah, exactly. Do I want to trade it with no tax effect with my Roth IRA? Am I a buyer at some level? Yeah. There's a trade there, probably. You know, have I put the trade on yet? No. Yeah. So that's probably the framework, probably the framework for me. Yeah. I think one of the really interesting questions that you brought up then is like, how many coins can say their own? And like, it seems pretty inevitable that he'll probably get to a million coins at some point, given enough time.

1:03:18Like he's really not that far away right now. um but at some point it's going to get really hard for him to incrementally increase his stack but he has to constantly buy otherwise there is no like case for him to be trading at a premium and so like when like what what is the end game here like it can't like being an etf is not interesting like he has to continually try and acquire coins and like how many coins is too much like i don't know these are just all the questions i have in my head i don't know the answer to these question, Sandy. I think that what's really interesting about him and their situation, but also of lesser, let's call them lesser Bitcoin treasury companies, is that, yeah, the valuation models and the frameworks really depend a lot on the assumptions, rate of accumulation, you know, price of the underlying, how much and how fast can they raise debt capital or quasi-debt capital, whether it's preferreds or anything else.

1:04:21and the confidence intervals or the bands, you know, around these potential outcomes for these variables are huge. Like one of the, there was a lot of discussion, I think, around, I can't remember the term, but, you know, basically the rate of accumulation. I guess it's BTC yield. Is it BTC yield? And the question is, yeah, you can look historically and see the BTC yield. Like that's a historical fact. What's it going to be in the future? Yeah. I have no idea. How much variance is there around the base case? Huge variance. Yeah, I really don't know. When you're trying to value a stock in general and you're thinking about earnings or cash flow, you're saying, I can see what the earnings and the cash flow were, or I had some model of how they'll evolve over time.

1:05:15And obviously nobody knows the future, So, you know, you had scenario analysis, you have your downside, you have your upside case. But it seems to me that the, yeah, the width of that window is quite high. It's a very wide window. And so I think it's really hard to value these things or make projections about how it turns out. I don't know the answer. I wish I knew the answer, Danny. It's going to be interesting. I don't love the idea of a single entity owning 5 % of the supply, certainly not 10%, but there's nothing we can do to stop this. Yeah. And I wonder from a valuation perspective, the funny thing is we know about MSTR is, you know, you got your hardcore Bitcoiners who just want leverage.

1:06:06So they're greedy. Let's call it what it is. Greedy Bitcoiners. Bitcoiners who are bullish on Bitcoin, but they say, ah, but I can make even more holding this thing with leverage. You know, and then you have, there's some institutions there, obviously. And then now, you know, there's some indexation inclusion, right? Some robots are buying this thing mindlessly. And each of those pools of capital is kind of different. I do wonder what a clear-eyed, not-bolt-hard Bitcoiner analyst says about how big that stack can be. I don't want to say allowed to get, but I kind of mean allowed to get. right it's like at what point do the powers that be uh start to start to worry about that or at what point do rational investors just say yeah that's too big a that's too big a honeypot now you could say oh well coinbase has already had i forget the number now but you know they have more than 10 of the coins physically maybe i'm trying to remember it's like between 10 and 20 we think there's a difference between just custody and coins on behalf of someone else though and being the owner of those coins and i guess you could maybe argue that you're still costing them behalf of the shareholder but it's different yeah and then you get the i mean obviously you got the key man risk you know um i want michael siller to live long and prosper um but you know to the extent uh that he has control uh you have to a rational investor has to ask okay well if there's i don't know change in leadership or an ownership for whatever reason uh yeah does the board keep sticking with the strategy under what circumstances would the could would or could the board capitulate if he's gone i don't know i don't know so many questions man um you know this is what makes it fun though danny which is gets back to one of the themes that we're talking about earlier which is anyone that says anything with certainty about anything bitcoin or otherwise run in the opposite direction be uh you know ask questions you know have some doubt about things and uh assume that the range of possibilities around your base case is wide basically uh that's that's my approach to life maybe i'll end up poorer maybe i'll end up with fewer coins uh you know maybe the all-in Bitcoiners, lifers who never sell coins will be laughing all the way to the digital bank of the future, you know, and I'll be stuck in my, yeah, I don't know, I'll be stuck eating the bugs because there's been so much inflation that all my other assets lose all their purchasing power.

1:08:51Even then, I have a suspicion that if Bitcoin gets anywhere close to reaching its potential, hopefully fingers crossed you know i and my family will have uh we'll have enough coins but uh who knows what the future holds i'm sure you will man um this has been awesome andy we'll have to do it again when you think the uh the bear market's over and we're we're back in a bull market let's do another show um where do you want to send anyone who wants to find out more about you yeah i guess i guess why buy bitcoin is the book and i guess on on x uh edstrom andrew i have the book here somewhere. I just can't see where it is.

1:09:28You're checking the shelf. The thing is, there's so many Bitcoin books these days that if you keep a shelf of all the books, there it is. Good man. He's got his copy. You knew it was there. You knew it was there. It was right in the middle. I should have seen it earlier. That's great. It's been a pleasure, Danny. Yes, it really has. Thank you, man. And I'm sure I'll see you again soon. We'll try and do one in person at some point. Thank you, Andy. Looking forward. Thanks, Danny.

1:10:04You