How AI Could Take Bitcoin to $1 Million | Jordi Visser

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39:30So I wrote a paper in June, basically titled The Firework Show is Over. So number one, I want to make sure I get this. The word bubble is used so much. Yeah. you couldn't name one thing one thing bars are a bubble hairdressers are a bubble like at some point you walk down the street and you're like why are there so many of these so i just think people use this in the context of it's going to take the economy down so i just want to make sure people get this straight the only time there's a bubble that matters from an investment standpoint is when supply is too big to be saturated by the demand.

40:19Here's a bubble. The crypto guardrails in 21, 22. So much money went into the space and there were kids coming from Wall Street. I'm quitting my job, Jordy. What do you think? I'm going to go over. I'm like, all right, great. Have a good time. And I'm not going to name the companies they were going to, but I mean at Goldman Sachs, it was like every day I got a call from some young person and going, I'm going to go over there. What do you think? I'm guessing FTX. I mean, FTX, Galaxy, it doesn't really matter. I mean, whoever had the most connections back to the bank, they were going there. But FTX was brought up from, that was the one place that Wall Street did invest in.

40:57Regardless, that was a bubble. Now, it was a bubble in the fact that too much money came in before the demand was there. Do I think NFTs are a great idea? Yeah, I actually do. not the art side but i think memories and experiences that you can digitally keep just like memorabilia with inside the physical world seems far more important to me in a digital world and to younger people than the actual physical side i don't want i don't want to get off on a tangent on it but i'm a big believer in nfts and in in a certain context but it was too early there there was there was it didn't make any sense and it was too much money going into something new speculating on it this was the dot-com bubble for crypto the ai side is not a bubble the ai side is a bubble if you say are all the companies going to make it no and the fireworks show was it was easy to make money in the ai infrastructure trade and in the duopoly that was created with open ai and anthropic yeah it's over um micron which is trading now at a whatever 4 pe depending on what earnings you use do i think it's going to go up again yeah but do i think the multiple is low i've called this a bull market with inside a bear market there are two types of bear markets one is where the price goes down the other one where the pe's go down that's what's happening to equities they're no longer being valued the same way crypto on the other end i've used peter lynch one of the most famous, I would say, contrarian investors who wrote a book called One Up on Wall Street, who literally wrote, the key thing to finding great ideas is to find things that are undercovered by the sell side and that are still small and haven't been invested in yet.

42:39That is crypto. That is the exact definition. Wall Street doesn't know anything about it. I write research and I've got 46 names in my index. You couldn't find a person at Morgan Stanley. Even with the digital asset team they're hiring, that knows as much as I do about some of these names because I'm researching them. I'm doing writings on them. I'm doing it. So I do think AI has peaked in the growth of it, in the surprise of it, in the ability to monetize it because the competition is too extreme. I think crypto is on the other end. It's coming out of the dot-com bubble. And what changed those companies, the Mag7, and had them build to the level they are is there was one event that occurred, which was the launch of the smartphone.

43:19And so to me, AI agents are the smartphone moment, the app store moment. They will allow the enthusiasm for the$900 trillion of incumbents to go, you know, there's something here. I really like this angle that crypto kind of went through its internet mode. We didn't know how to invest in the internet. Let's go find these L2s and go figure out which ones can make money. And I think Robinhood chain right now is kind of helping them zero in. And I can just tell you as someone who stands on the bridge, in the middle of it where they're like, Hey, Jordy, explain to me how tokenization fits in my world.

43:56And I'm getting that question now from, I would say the biggest players at the most highest level. So not their analysts, but the actual decision makers. And the reason that's important is they know me. Number two, that means before they even allow their analysts to bring to them, like you should look at Zcash you should look at this they're coming to me going should i be looking at this give me the macro vision on this give me the bigger picture so i can go through it and i'm getting those questions now which says we're in the early stages of a peter lynch moment of people finding it so if the you know the massive growth in ai is over for now um you're not expecting this to pull back massively but the the major growth is gone for now but you think that's still to come in bitcoin sort of crypto world um if you were talking to say the ceo of apple or google or maybe google is a better example as it's like so um dialed in on the ai stuff they're sat on a lot of cash should they be looking to buy bitcoin no they will keep spending their money into oblivion um because they have a lot of money sitting you know in orders that this is the most trapped obvious thing i've ever seen in my lifetime um microsoft amazon google i mean the major important hyperscalers but even oracle yeah um they have massive orders for compute and again that's why i say there's no bubble demand for compute is greater than supply end of story and if people don't know that they just are not they're living in their own bubble yeah 100 it's definitely true i mean the prices don't go down every bare argument that's ever been made has been disproven just by the prices that exist i was just talking on the phone with someone who literally said the biggest problem we're having right now is we can't get enough compute online in the next two years yeah so it's like the window is out way past 28 at this point in terms of the demand side so i i think as we kind of you know move through this google has i don't know i think they're half a trillion dollars of back orders they just don't have the compute so they can't not spend the money the question really comes will they have a product outside of this boring product of supplying compute to open ai and anthropic yeah i mean they basically own a restaurant unless they can figure a way to monetize this and what happened with meta meta came out with muse it's a big hit i've not used it yet it's you're not allowed to use it in australia it's like oh really it's us only for now okay i i mean i've used it i don't know it's very good yeah i've talked to you about it canceled or gave me the, I won't name the company, but the one I did a free trial to and pointed out.

46:41But it's done amazing things for me, including, and so people know, it does fraud alert for me. Everyone's worried about their bank account and stuff being connected to it. And I'm like, well, I got protection in my bank account on multiple levels. If you guys don't have it, like go in there and say, hey, if anyone takes money out for more than$10 off a debit card, let me know. Cause I don't use my debit card that much. And that's really where a lot of the bots go in. And in particular, in your checking account, because your savings account has more. Like, I've already looked all this stuff up.

47:09So I'm like, okay, here's my other check. Hey, I'm a big believer that if you don't want to die from cancer, you should know you have cancer day one. And it's a very simple thing. Well, the same thing goes with fraud. They're going to test it, and I want to know. And so I'll give my protection at the bank, and then I'll have protection with Muse, and I already do that. So Muse is a warning shot to Apple. Siri hasn't, they don't have it yet. Siri is dreadful. It's unbelievable. How about it? Alexa is too. So they haven't figured it out. Google, I mean, I'm using Muse on my Gmail accounts. So how come they haven't come out with Microsoft and Copilot?

47:50They're saying they have their agents now. OpenAI is going to have theirs and you know Anthropik's going to have theirs. So the problem is for all of these companies, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen already, and the competition is going to be extreme. The thing I don't think people realize with the Mag 7 is they really are like seven different companies. And almost there's a lot of rumors that they agreed a long time ago, we're not going to go in your lane, you don't go in our lane. So when you break down what Amazon is, it's very different than what Apple is. It's very different than what Google is.

48:19And you go through it like, oh, these Mag 7, they do seven different things. Now they're all competing for the exact same pie. That's interesting. So by definition, they're going to be a feeding frenzy. It's going to drive costs down. So people don't think about these things. That's why I don't worry like, oh, Meta stock's going up. I'm like, yeah, great. And what happens when everyone else comes out with their version? Haven't you learned what happened with your fears on open source and all this? They'll all be feeding for zero cost because Muse is free. And so what happens then as they compete?

48:48Do you think the Mag7 becomes the Mag6 and then the Mag5 until we have the Mag1? It depends on how you measure it. do I think, um,

48:58here's the best way to say it. Um, cable companies, they're there, their stocks suck. Yeah. They become regulated commodities. They don't grow anymore. So what happens to a stock like AT &T, it's not like you've woken up. AT &T is never on the front page. Like there, if you go into X and say, what's the latest news on AT &T? there's no news and if there is it's about something bad or you know a database breach yeah their debt's gonna blow them up but nothing good so i think over time these companies just become like that i don't think they grow but this might be too extreme but is this almost like the end of capitalism then so it i i think i have written or said that somewhere that it's very difficult for way capitalism exists the way people know it today but here's the thing i don't know what you call it if we go from the mag 7 to the mag 1 billion and all that means is a redistribution through a channel of competition and capitalism at the end of the day is cap is competition the problem is i don't think it's been fair competition when it gets back to it cost me nothing to borrow money and i get to hire the best talent because i can pay the most money so as you get a moat around your business it's very hard for there to be competitors so someone might have a better idea i mean go back to the mag 7 what did they do when there was a competitor they bought instagram what i could name a hundred little companies that were going rapidly that they just gobbled up yeah so i think that's what capitalism really was was you get big enough and before someone can compete you buy them you buy them and it's kind of rigged because the vc needs to be monetized and go through it.

50:42I mean, I just heard on the All In podcast that they were describing Anthropic and like the founders own very little of the company, which is an amazing thing that here's a company that's not that old and it's trillion dollars. And I think Dario owns 2 % of it. Yeah, that's crazy. So again, you think about a founder who creates a business that gets to this level that's not even that old and he owns two percent of it so i think we're kind of entering this weird world why does he own two percent i think when you go through the difference of that with like zuck with facebook and you realize well it's really hard with hardware companies that have to spend tons of money because they have to raise the money they have to give up ownership to be able to raise the money in the world that i'm seeing the founders are going to own 80 90 100 of their business because they don't need employees and they don't need to borrow money.

51:35And those are the two things. If you need capital and you need employees, you have to give up a lot of your money. But with AI, you don't need either. And so I might be crazy. I might be the only person that believes this, but I really do think that this is more about we invest in growth. And if these companies can't grow their earnings fast enough, their multiples compress. One of the things about me that people that know in my weekly, it's all data driven. So I try to look at what the market is saying, and it's saying to me, triple C spreads are widening out in the US. Oh, that means a recession is coming.

52:11Well, no, because high yield is not budging and investment grade is not budging. The MAG7 CDS is widening out and all these scary things. Okay, but their equity is at all-time highs. Their equity is lower in the cap structure than their debt, guys. Like, come on, let's be, the market's telling you something. It's not telling you there's a problem with their borrowing. It's saying that this is a very concentrated amount of borrowing. And if you believe the AI trade is going to be a bubble, what better thing than to buy CDS on this? Plus, for people that believe that this is just a repeat of the big short, everyone made a ton of money doing this type of trade on the big short.

52:46So let's go buy CDS on all these companies. I just think the market has been telling you by the multiple compression and specifically NVIDIA. nvidia's earnings have blown away all estimates and they literally just did something we've never seen before in terms of rating guidance for next year on their revenues way above the street i mean the street was expecting 40 top line revenue growth and they said it was going to be 70 for a company to say that even if they it's never happened and the reason i say it's never happened you would never say a year out you have that much certainty and visibility to say it's going to be way above where the street is and the stock was unchanged four days later now their pe has collapsed micron's pe is low why is that happening and i believe it's because out five years we have no certainty whatsoever yeah and at the end of the day the value of a fiat asset to get back to your scarcity side it's about the future discounted cash flows and that in it a pe to me gets back to bitcoin it's like how do you convert this into a pe well maybe the pe is the most vulnerable thing because it means you're extra you have to extrapolate this moat such a far time out that if you cut off five years from now you go you know what i'm gonna place a very low probability this company will still be winning in five years well then the pe goes down to single digits and the reason i know that is because that's where the stock market was in 1980 before the personal computer started to get the rise in pe's in the us now it was coming out of the inflation era back then but there was also an uncertainty over rates were going to be we kind of have the same thing now with rates we don't know where rates are going to be and as i'm going to show this week for everyone worried about the bond market and what it means it's like guys the rates don't matter anymore like i don't know how to like get this across to people you guys are getting scared about something that i know doesn't matter and it's another one of these market tells same thing with oil doesn't matter you say so many things that have just a thousand questions on but um just before we get on to rates because i do want to ask you about that with the ai trade the pe's dropping is that also partly a self-fulfilling prophecy where if enough people think it's a bubble they start treating it like a bubble and and therefore the stocks don't grow or shrink comparatively I've never seen a more hated bull market around the greatest innovation technology that the world has ever seen yeah when Cisco was trading at 100 PE and I moved back from Brazil I was watching very educated Ivy League people try to explain to me how it was justified and and I remember coming back being like so I leave Brazil which is in a depression and you guys bring me back here because I was successful down there so now the capitalist side is we need Geordi to come back here and run the S &P options book um and then I get to see people who I still talk to today I'm like remember when you were drunk on pets.com and all this stuff that you own like yeah yeah that was that was a crazy time I was like I right now in the stock market we have none of that like none of that Micron's trading at a four p I mean if you thought if you do the numbers on Micron and if someone said to me so what's the argument for memory I'm like well let's see we're not even in the first inning of compute demand we just started the agentic revolution in january opus 4.6 and open claw were kind of the the key points for the agentic world and coding agents started enterprise adoption but enterprise adoption is in the first inning consumer agents muse just started yeah so it's like those two alone are massive but let's take it further full self-driving doesn't happen yet it's gonna happen and you need a hell of a lot more compute for doing visual and bringing that in too and then after that you have humanoids you still have going to space like this is a never-ending demand for compute so theoretically micron should be trading extrapolating the next 10 years into their multiple it should be trading at 40 times this year's earnings but it's not and the reason is because the market is smarter than any individual And we saw that with the SaaSpocalypse in the beginning part of the year.

57:03So again, you look to the market, and I believe that when you take 8 billion people, including if only 2 % of people above the age of 55 are using AI, the 2 % that are using it, they're engineers, they're, but at 55, they probably have a lot of money. Mark Andreessen has a lot of money. Like if I go through the list of people that have a lot of money that are using it and understand it, they're saying the same thing I am because where am I getting my stuff from? Those people. I'm not the first person to say the valuation of these companies is coming down because terminal value has been eliminated.

57:38But if you only listen to the bubbles here, it's a lazy way for people to go, oh, thank God there's a bubble. So that way I can just wait it out. That's what a bubble means to me. It's a lazy way of saying, I don't have to use AI. I don't have to buy any AI companies. It doesn't really matter because I can just sit this one out. it's i mean it's both the most hated um sort of bull market but also just the most hated technological revolution like the it's become so politically polarized and pubkey where we're recording above right now hosted a event in dc last week which was like they had a load of um ai infrastructure content so they were talking to data centers all that kind of thing and in the wake of that they've had an absolute ton of one star reviews on their on their bar because they had those conversations within the bar like it's insane how much people hate the data centers yeah and like don't get me wrong i don't necessarily want to live right next to the data center but like the most of the people that hate it do not live next to data center correct it's it's very interesting so i want to go back to rates you said rates don't matter why do rates not matter anymore because the economy has changed dramatically since the iphone came into existence so um and i'll just use i could use australia as well but it's not gonna be the same as as the u.s let's just use the u.s um first of all corporate balance sheets are pristine on the aggregate it's lunacy to me that people worry about the debt of like microsoft and google and all this stuff like these companies are worth so much money that go back to your debt to equity class like it there's no risk of default or anything with them borrowing a total of two trillion dollars between them when they're worth 20 30 trillion dollars in the aggregate so there's that the cash in the balance sheet is still enormous and marketable securities so on a risk analysis the corporate balance sheets today relative to the great financial crisis completely different i use great financial crisis as the brammer because that's when the iphone came out yeah so when the iphone came out the companies that grew the mag 7 they took no debt so when you see these scary charts with these histograms and it's like look at the debt it's up here and it's coming from here i'm like the real story is the prior 10 years they took no debt how do you grow from a trillion to 15 trillion amongst those companies and take no debt yeah like it never happened before in mankind and you guys leave it so when you see this stuff going up okay that's going to kill the growth going forward i'm with you guys like it's not going to blow the company up so rates don't matter from a corporate side from a household side household net worth in the united states of america is 195 trillion Okay, let me say that again.

1:00:16$195 trillion. When you guys hear the big scary government debt number, it's$40 trillion. 120 % of GDP. You know when Japan's debt was 120 % of GDP? That was in 2000. That was a long time ago. That was a quarter of a century ago. They haven't blown up. They're still playing the party game of we don't need to pay our debt off because we just buy it back and go through it. So does the U.S. have that luxury yet? No, but they'll get there. they'll just keep buying back the debt, move everything into short-term yields, and it'll just become a sieve, just like everything that went on during the Great Financial Crisis.

1:00:47But betting against the government is a bad mistake. Rates for housing. The majority, 40 % of housing in the U.S. completely paid off. The average mortgage rate on a house is sub-4%. So as rates go higher, these are fixed-rate mortgages, and I'm pretty sure Australia does not have a big fixed-rate mortgage. We don't have the luxury of that. Yeah. But in the U.S., they're locked in at fixed rate mortgages. So they're not getting worse. The wealthy people who don't have mortgages and have lots of cash, if rates are going higher, the government is giving more money into the system. This is not the case from before.

1:01:25And I can keep going on and on. But when you're left with is if the household balance sheets are good, the private sector as a whole are because corporations balance sheets are good. the only people who get hurt from rates going higher are arguably the places that should go out of business house sales are at zero in the u.s i mean not literally zero but they're at the lowest level when you do existing home sales they're at the same level they were during the great financial crisis the worst of it so there is no element of this that has the same impact that it used to have in the past and that's why as rates go higher is there an element that knocks out small businesses yeah but to be honest it gets back to the point of the stubbornness that a lot of businesses have recessions are supposed to be cleansing events to get rid of the weak and allow the strong to get in and sometimes for individuals that it was their dream to have a little hardware store or a little diner they might be better off with it going out of business because they're sitting there and watching they're i'm making ten thousand dollars and now i'm only making eight i'm have to leave and move anyway because the rent's going up i just think the rate situation it's not going to take the economy down it's not as sensitive it was before 2008 and there's a variety of other things that go through but if it does get to the point like obviously the person it matters to is the government as they're rolling their debt over and hiring higher rates and if it gets to the point where they're having to buy back that debt themselves like that then affects everyone through debasement well when you say debasement not if all they're doing is moving the maturity closer and closer in and it doesn't really increase any more dramatically than it was but if they have to start buying back the bonds like japan uh again as you go through this and you figure out the total sum of the assets is 900 trillion dollars so they're not having any trouble on this now because the rates haven't gone up that much so far we've done 100 basis point move in a year um we have this thing in the u.s that we pay attention to for good reason actually two things so there's the lei which is the economic leading economic indicator which was negative for three years from 2022 to just turn it's not positive yet I think it's about to go positive above zero we've never not had a recession without that going below zero and yet we've been below we had an inverted yield curve we didn't get a recession magically enough We took rates from zero to 5%, didn't get a recession.

1:03:52We have the financial conditions index. Rates have gone up 100 basis points. Financial conditions have gotten easier. So we're kind of in an environment again where if people want to believe that there'll be more printing, then we'll see it through money supply. But the reality is we've got a fiscal deficit of 6%, which means there's a transfer from the government who's borrowing money and basically again giving it back out so we're already in the debasement thing we've been in it before it's just a call of liquefaction transfer payments continue to grow we keep giving money out i don't think that's going to last forever my own personal view because i think entitlements are going to change in the coming years because of ai uh but you know that's a view that's a lot there for people you say too many interesting things i need to now ask you about entitlements because when you say that's going to change, are they going to be forced to change or why would AI change them?

1:04:49So I do believe that when it comes to people's health, longevity is going to go through its exponential as well. Absolutely. So if you believe in that, then you have to go through the entitlements and separate the social security side and then the other side, Medicare, Medicaid, and what's going on. And the majority of health expenditures come in the final five days of your life. If nobody dies from disease and they die from old age, which is a far better way to die. And so let's assume the current people above their 70 because of how old they are, they don't get another 70 years, they get an extra 10 years.

1:05:30Well, that's worth a lot of money, but more importantly, if they die from just old age and that's it, well, that's a pretty great way to go. but the cost side and the burden on everyone else will go down dramatically. And I do believe that is going to happen. When humanoids come, and let's say a decade from now, they're able to live in the home and go through this. When you go through where the entitlements start to become a major issue, you're talking in 2032 and going beyond. So Social Security is a harder one for people to deal with, but the wealth of the country is enormous. And I do believe that in the next five years, people are underestimating the tax side that's going to go up dramatically.

1:06:08and this is not something to scare people with. If abundance actually happens, people have to start thinking about what will go on. A company like Anthropic has, I think, like 5 ,000 employees and they're worth two, three trillion dollars. Okay, I wanna say that again. 5 ,000 employees, the company's not even, I don't even know when they were incorporated, but it can't be more than six years ago. And their revenue per employee, like when you do the numbers if that's what their value is that means they're building in that next year which is is i mean there's people that have said publicly they'll be at a trillion dollars of revenue next year which i don't believe in but let's assume it's 300 billion okay well that's a lot of revenues and if they don't have a lot of employees the question is shouldn't we be taxing them at some huge rate for their ai agents and shouldn't there be taxation because the government's not receiving it from the individuals.

1:07:07So when the humanoids come and all this stuff, corporations will start paying taxes because labor has suffered relative to capital. It's almost like a form of UBI. Exactly. But it's happening through taxing the robots, which I believe will happen. And it's probably a better outcome. It's a better outcome. And I think it'll only happen. And I think that's something that both parties could agree on. Yeah. Because I do believe that the one place that the merge has happened donald trump won on trying to help the masses he believed tariffs were good for regenerating the you know the the midwest and the people that have been left out at the expense of the coastline well i think in the democratic party even though they win on the coastline you can't run without kind of going towards people that are being impacted and i think they want to tax people that have most of the money now maybe it won't be the individuals because that becomes a state thing and people run from different states but i think for corporations it's a little bit easier if the data center thing no one's going to like if their pay has been disrupted by ai agents and robots and that's what the next five years is agents have not replaced people at work what has happened is they have not hired people yeah and then the corporate ladder has stopped so you can't go up any further and the costs haven't changed inside the city so i think this is what builds the anger is humans do much better with hope and if hope has been taken away which is what the corporate ladder and getting more money in the future is then i think someone is to blame data centers are to blame potentially i think robots and agents will be taxed that makes sense to me and it's also like without that you're going to get huge social disruption i think the companies will be happy to pay it i i do too um the and that's another reason why at the end of the day the government involvement the forcing of it i just think the growth for these companies, the multiple you have to, the more the government gets involved in your business.

1:09:01I don't think they're getting involved in businesses that are making$2 million. No, I think they're getting involved in businesses that are making trillions of dollars. And so if that's the case, that is another redistribution that everyone would vote for because nobody, I mean, when you get to a corporation, it's like how many people actually make most of the money? It's very concentrated even inside a corporation. So it's, it's very challenging. And the threat to the AI data center companies, as an example, is you pay the tax that's essentially like UBI or you get people throwing Molotov cocktails at your data centers.

1:09:31It's an easy choice. I have two more of the big questions I want to ask you. First of all, if this happens, we have huge deflationary effects from AI. There's huge disruption in the stock market. What happens to sort of the debt-based fiat system that we live in today? Nothing as long as its PEs collapsing. So again, if the stock prices don't go down fast, the problem with deflation every time I get asked it, the depression was not about prices going down. It was about them going down in a short amount of time. If prices in public stocks go down, that would matter because that's the only place people can invest.

1:10:15If tokenization happens and your money gets redistributed, then those assets deflate while the other ones go up. This is the whole beauty of crypto. Crypto is not big enough now to offset it, but over the course of a decade, that's how things change. So the best way to think about it is we have a bear market in the US market right now. We have a lot of companies trading at 52 week lows. We have a lot of companies that are unchanged over the course of the last decade down. Why is that? Well, because they're in a bear market. The problem I don't think people understand is that's not causing any problems because the overall situation's better that's what's going to happen if the total sum of assets doesn't collapse and the only reason it collapses is because of the synchronization of of debt which doesn't exist anymore that's why the rate thing doesn't matter anymore it used to be if the dominoes of the private sector having so much debt i mean why did the great financial crisis happen okay the people were speculating on housing banks were speculating on housing and corporations were speculating on they were all speculating on housing now nobody's speculating with debt anymore it's just not happening private credit is not a problem like the bdcs are trading at the correct level the people are trapped it's not the debt that's problem it's the liquidity that's a problem and the companies have rules we like blackstone's not going to give them their money back because this is the rule you signed up for this yeah they got the money to give them back that's why they were like here's 500 you know they were writing checks to people now they're like how many outflows we got ah screw them it's fine it doesn't really matter so i'm not worried about the collapse in any way i think this is going to be a um deflationary in certain situations which has happened uh actually the whole world is that had happened since the great financial crisis until, you know, at the end of 2023,

1:12:142022, every part of the world was basically unchanged since 2007, except for the United States of America. That's how it became 73, 74 % of MSCI world. So if people don't realize what happened, you were in a living example of what's going to happen. If crypto goes up, but nothing else goes up much, there's a re there's a rebalancing going on and that can happen in a very positive way. And I think that's what's going to happen. Okay. And then last question, um, you described how Bitcoin sort of crypto is going to benefit massively from this agentic economy. Can we take crypto out for a second? Cause I think I understand that part with, you know, stable coins.

1:12:53What, what role will Bitcoin play? So Bitcoin to me is, is the end result of, uh, and I guess the best way to do this is to take people on a little bit of a journey. So to make sure people understand they've heard the gold standard and I'm sure the sophistication level of your audience, most of them must know that effectively we eventually got off the gold standard and the Great Depression was one of the major reasons. So when we went global and countries were figuring out how to trust each other, gold became the necessary thing to, I trust you, you trust me, and we've got gold backing this up.

1:13:33So then we go into this new system where it's kind of free for all. We're off the gold standard and everyone's just like, we have this printing press. And we learned in the Great Depression that the worst thing is if your hands are tied, we don't want that. Because then when everyone tries to sell at the same time and the world is interconnected, it's a fucking problem. Now, with the great financial crisis, we just printed money and we had this helicopter thing. We're like, we'll shoot it out. And they kind of tried it. They didn't really try it well. There were still votes. It's a tarp vote. It was a very messy thing.

1:14:03But then COVID happened and everyone around the globe went, let's just print from all directions. And that's what happened. And so we learned that we have that. The reason Bitcoin is important is because it gets us back to the point of we definitely need a gold standard in a world where we don't have to worry about that scenario because at some point to redistribute things, there has to be a standard and Bitcoin is the standard. There would be no crypto except for the Bitcoin white paper. The Bitcoin white paper got it. So I've always said that Bitcoin is one of the things that is the most important thing that we all have to deal with in life.

1:14:37There are only three motes that I know of. Gold has been accepted by human beings. It has been accepted as the store of value it's carried on for thousands of years at some point someone said not seashells this one's the one yeah religion survives it doesn't matter how much information i made a joke and i'm like kids still believe in santa claus but they have an iphone like it's a it's a beautiful thing that you can have religion last for all this time and bitcoin is the third one it's been chosen it's a belief now it's a belief that it is the digital asset store of value so when you have a system that operates you need something that is the bank that is the trust for it to function and so i believe bitcoin is that and then the other thing is it is a it is a moat against time so in a world of deflation and i want to make sure people understand because this word deflation everyone jumps to that means assets are going down and i want to keep saying hyper competition is deflation that's what it means when innovation is so fast it's driving down the cost to zero and then everyone that can't afford to run their business at zero goes out of business.

1:15:47And the debt that's associated with it, okay, but that's not happening. You're going to have hyper competition. So in a world of deflation where I have a business, I'm being out competed by AI, then your business starts heading towards zero. Bitcoin doesn't have a value. It doesn't have cash flows. It doesn't have anything. So if you're losing over here, you're like, let me put it over here that's what a store of value is but it's a deflationary store of value gold standard was a deflationary asset that's what you wanted to own during the great depression because you knew it was going to be worth something only later on in the fiat system did people go i need to have gold because i'm going to inflate my way out stocks have been just as good as gold as an inflationary hedge so in a deflationary hedge you lose on all of your assets except for Bitcoin, probably gold as well.

1:16:40But I think Bitcoin is a better choice. And so earlier in the show, we were talking about the$900 trillion of assets and Bitcoin's just under$2 trillion right now. How big does it have to become to become relevant? Like you said earlier, like it's not really a relevant figure. To actually soak up all of that, that$900 trillion, how big does Bitcoin have to become? I've said that I think by 2035, the crypto ecosystem, the total crypto market cap has to be at least 100 trillion kind of in the vision I am. And that's assuming a bunch of, so I do everything in probabilities of three. So let's assume crypto doesn't grow and the fiat system just continues as it is.

1:17:21And we just keep printing money and the assets go up and crypto ends up still being 6 trillion in a decade. And it just grows by the amount of liquidity. That's one scenario. The second one is that I'm right about the deflationary side and people get frustrated with their fiat assets there's a move to tokenization that money moves into the guardrails because now it's all moving into the guardrails and bitcoin benefits and it probably stays 33 percent of the assets meaning it goes down from 60 down and you have the ecosystem the crypto rails that grow more and then the third scenario is that i'm actually underestimating the agents moving away from all of this other stuff and they're investing primarily in Bitcoin.

1:18:03And I think that's a smaller possibility, but I would put it equally at the same as the other. So I just come to$100 trillion is something that I think is valid. And I think Bitcoin will be at a minimum a third of that. So that means it's market cap in a decade in my mind of just, again, if it wasn't for AI, this would not happen. This is all about the deflationary pressures hurting the way the current$900 trillion looks at it at the same point of them being able to value it from the programmable side and they're actually getting interested and i can feel it so at 33 trillion you can go through your home side and be like okay well he's saying it's going to be worth 17 times where it is today that's a good number to go off of and i can live with that and then you get to a million and everyone can go have their million party i'll take uh i'll take 33 trillion in 10 years time that sounds good in 10 years just got to be patient um geordie this has been amazing i've still got a thousand questions that i want to ask you but We'll have to do it again sometime.

1:18:59Really appreciate you coming on the show. And tell everyone where they can find your show or the work you do.

1:19:08AI.22vresearch.com, where they can start from my own LLC website, which is visser-labs.com. And they can find everything there. But they can also find me on LinkedIn, on X, Substack. I'm everywhere. You're everywhere. I appreciate you, man. That was really good. Thanks, Danny.

1:19:31Thank you.