Jeff Booth | AI, Bitcoin, & The Collapse Of The Fiat Economy

31:36So when you ask that, you're really asking how long does it take everyone? Yeah, for most people. Yeah, but it honestly doesn't matter. It just matters for you. It matters for your friends. It matters for, but, you know, say in a plane, put on your own oxygen mask first. Might want to put on your own oxygen mask first. And it doesn't matter what is. So when people see that you've already moved and you're living in a higher energy form, right? And everything in your life is getting better. As long as you're not kind of using that and saying you're a dummy and use it as kind of an ego-driven thing.

32:23As long as you still care about that process, you care about other people. you can talk about it at a very high energy type of thing and just allow them to see it in their own time. And they'll see it in their own time. Do you know somebody who is in Bitcoin? And the more time they spend in Bitcoin, the better and better all of these things are. Right across everyone in Bitcoin. Everyone in Bitcoin, every single person. And that's, I think, why it becomes so hard for people because we are living in a different world. We're living on something. We see the hope, the abundance, the truth, we see a totally different world.

33:02And so when I'm walking down the street or when I'm paying in Bitcoin, when I'm doing this, all my relationships, many of my relationships are in it, it's a mirror that's on a foundation of truth. And that mirror, that reflection back, the more time you spend in it, it just gets better and better and better. And you can leave the other system behind, but you did, I did, everything else. As we were moving our time and more and more of it to this new system, we also had the same questions that every single person that is just starting their journey today has. I know when I first looked at it, I didn't think this could stay decentralized I thought if in 5 ,000 years of human history that we've never allowed a global free market, then it must be something in us that chooses short-term over long-term.

34:03And we could always get co-opted again. And so I had a really high bar on could Bitcoin resolve this paradox. And I believe now it resolves this paradox. I guess one of the reasons that I care about this kind of happening to more than just me and my friends and my family is because with the degradation of fiat comes like a degradation of society. And I want my daughter to grow up in a nice place, not somewhere that's just a dystopian hellscape. hellscape. Yeah. It's why I wrote, by the way, this is why I wrote my book, right? Because you could see what would happen. And there's going to be a whole bunch of dystopian hellscapes.

34:48There's dystopian hellscapes today in this world where you have the privilege because you were raised in one of essentially the taker countries from the have not countries that we were essentially putting in that position from a monetary system. We didn't know it, or people in the West didn't know it, but they were part of the haves and other people had to be part of the have-nots in an economic system that was a zero-sum game. And so, but there's been lots of, in your life, in my life, a whole bunch of regions that are hellscapes. And those regions are hellscapes largely because of the same system that provides your success.

35:33That's a really hard thing to know that's true for sure, because it wasn't a global free market. And so we're on the winning side of that, worried about the hellscapes that are coming to our countries from the very same thing. are you worried about the centralization of control over these ai systems in the sense that really it's kind of like four or five big tech companies in silicon valley that are driving everything yeah they're um so i think i don't know if i told you this but one of the one of the robotics companies one of the agi robotics companies that's uh one of the leaders right now was started by a friend of mine.

36:19And his chief scientific officer said to me, we're going to create the first multi-trillion dollar company because it's not going to have any humans working in it. And I said, well, where does the money come from? And the money comes from that sitting on top of that system that aggregates it all to the control companies. And so that race, that global race for AI from that system, of course, is China, US, NVIDIA, all of these are all kind of, how do we win this game? So we control AI. And a lot of winning that game is convincing you through all of your social media channels and everything else, that's okay, that that's the way the system.

37:10So you're living inside this in most of your channels, everything else. And it's a coordinated game. It's a crazy coordinated game. And you should be scared of what AI can do from that system. Is that because controlling AI is just controlling everyone's data, essentially? Yeah. Yeah. You're training the AI every time you're using these models and you see an error and you correct the error, you're training the AI. Yeah. Now, and so they talk about synthetic data. Those would be the worst AI models on the planet because they just have garbage in, garbage out. We are the AI. Like literally what we do as humans, we are abundance creating machines out of scarcity.

38:00Nothing that's ever been scarce. so far, have we not found a way to break through with our minds and create abundance from it? If you look back through history, and why would that be normal? It's because that centralized or that power or that margin attracts more entrepreneurs to solve those problems in a different way. So anything that's stuck, anything that's stuck has always become unstuck through just our mind. That's our role in this and then we use the things that give us more value. So it's a really simple concept. Really simple concept. The problem is you're trying to marry that concept into something that it cannot connect to because it's never existed.

38:51So when you connect that concept to Bitcoin and then you say, do you have this open decentralized secure protocol bounded by energy that can't be cheated, then it will impose the concept that I just said. And that means relative to that concept, all governments will get smaller over time. It means relative to that the debt in the world will be repriced and it'll be way smaller debt on the new system. It means your house price is falling and will fall forever. It falls back to its utility value where you raise your family in a house, right? Because it's a beautiful neighborhood with your friends and family and kids riding their bikes instead of a store of value against depreciate currencies that are being devalued.

39:41It means a whole bunch of other things from the new system that's imposing that. But you have to stay in the new system. You say, is the natural state of the free market deflation? Yes or no? Yes. Should we be seeing exponential deflation or exponential productivity gains, which would drive exponential deflation? Yes or no? Yes. If you had a decentralized secure protocol bounded by energy that couldn't be cheated, it would be pricing that exactly what I just described perfectly. Would it also be true at the same time that most people wouldn't get, be able to hold on to that thought that I just said, and they would go back to their old, they would be living, okay, okay, I get it, I get it, prices are falling, I get it.

40:37And then they would look at the Bitcoin price in US dollars or whatever it every day and think it's going up? Of course they would, right? Would Bitcoin price going up hang better off their mental models of previous models? Would that then say, how are governments going to deal with this? Would that then say, okay, are they going to drive more EUBI. All of these models that you're describing are actually our own cognitive dissonance trying to take two incompatible models and put them together. Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin? Well, Ledin makes that possible. They're the global leader in Bitcoin-backed lending, and since 2018, they've issued over $9 billion in loans with a perfect record of protecting client assets.

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43:50Like what am I going to sell it back to fiat? Absolutely not. Like there are realistic situations where I would sell Bitcoin to make my life better because time is more scarce than anything. Um, so if I was going to buy a house for the family or whatever it is, like those things, I understand why you sell Bitcoin to get something like a new house, a bigger, like improve your life, but sell it for fiat. Like it makes no sense to me. Totally. And that's, and, and that, and just like you probably bought a big flat screen TV 10 years ago, right? And then TV felt more and it didn't stop you from buying that TV, even though you knew that.

44:27And then you bought another TV, right? At a better one and a bigger one or any computer equipment. By the way, all of those items are still being debased. So they're way higher than they would be in a natural free market, but you can see where Moore's law is moving really fast, right? You can see that they're outpacing even the debasement of currency and how much they're falling. But all of those items, just like you'll buy in Bitcoin, I spend Bitcoin every day, knowing full well that the Bitcoin I'm spending today will buy more tomorrow. Yeah. Because life is just life. You have to spend something.

45:09But I remember the first time my dad bought a flat screen tv it was like four grand and uh that same tv so it cost you like a hundred dollars and in fact you couldn't get one as bad totally um so when it comes to like the idea of super intelligence do you have any because because to like to kind of conceptualize what you're saying here it seems like you're almost saying who cares you know like this stuff is happening like i live in a system outside of the current system so just let it happen and i be better off at the end of it. I've probably done 1 ,500 podcasts. Why would I keep saying yes? I care.

45:51I care to help more people understand this. I really do. Because if something grabs them and they can move their time, their energy into a productive system that is for all of us, then everybody wins. Those people won. Those people might then touch tens of millions of people more. And essentially what's happening is you're bending reality into a new world that looks nothing like any previous reality. And all of those people that are starting to understand, even if it's the first day and they're just starting to understand, and they spend 1 % of their energy and they put a little bit into Bitcoin self-custody, then they'll start to learn more about this and it'll take time.

46:39So I do care. I care a lot. But I can't, when somebody says, how do you get everybody to move tomorrow? What does it look like for all those people that are stuck? And I know full well the chaos. I'm not like how terrible it is. It already is bad. And it's getting worse. And many of those people, they don't know that, but they're feeding the thing they're most scared of. And they're fighting with people within that system, thinking that it's the other person, and the other person thinks it's them, and it's neither. Right? Both people could escape, and they could see how beautiful both of the people are on the new system.

47:27And so that system is designed for coercion control, right? It has to look like that. And if you're feeding it, if you're... And so what I'm saying is not that I don't care, I don't let that energy, which is really low frequency energy, touch me. And so do you think that one of the things that could actually accelerate the decline of the current system is AI in the sense that if we get these AI agents and super intelligence, they're going to at some point need a money to transact between each other and they may end up picking Bitcoin. Yeah. So not the way that you just described at all, right?

48:07Okay. Tell me what you're saying. So, so, and I'm not saying that that couldn't not, you couldn't create a business on needing transact sats on that and you could create a business. So that is likely to happen as individual companies try to create more value on this system. But remember, I said before, those prices are going to fall to zero. The AI won't need something to interact with another AI to pay the other AI. Why does the AI need the money? To pay for compute. But it's not the AI paying for compute. It's a company paying for compute. Mm-hmm. Right? It's somebody paying for compute. And so they're under the same thing as...

48:55So all these things just centralize... Would centralize up. And so these prices continue to fall in this forever. They drive falling prices everywhere else forever. forever. It's easier to say, just Bitcoin imposes a discipline that makes the free market work. And now you have no place to hide from the free market. The free market is being imposed for a global free market, and you have a chance to contribute to it and benefit from it by moving to Bitcoin. Or you could stay in a centralized market that it has to get more and more centralized and be stuck there.

49:47So in that, instead of thinking about Bitcoin, that's where, instead of thinking about Bitcoin as the user of a tool that is, sorry, an AI using Bitcoin as a user of a tool that then has this super intelligence, that's us, God-like intelligence, that's over all of us because it's using Bitcoin. It's just like any tool. It's a powerful, powerful tool, unlike anything we've ever seen. And it will be incredible at finding drug discovery, a whole bunch of other stuff, things in physics that we haven't, patterns that we haven't been able to see with our time, you'll be able to understand those patterns.

50:39So in other words, it's a massive productivity enhancement. It's like going orders of magnitude from going from a shovel to a steam shovel, right? Massive productivity improvements that allow you to do way more for less, see more things, solve problems faster. But we are super, we're higher than it. We're the supercomputer. It's just a tool of productivity, a staggering tool of productivity. And unless you believe the way that you said, then you would be worried about the AIs that are controlled by Tesla or Google or Deepsea, which would eventually be controlled by the government, if they're not already, that would have to happen, right?

51:33Because they're only allowed domain to work inside a country that gains its powers from its citizens, from that system. So those would be taken, right, by the government for sure. They would be centralized. And so if you think this system is this super intelligence is over you, and it looks like that to you instead of in service to you, you'll probably be more and more afraid of that, and you'll probably make it happen more. So do you think that all the sort of semi-pseudo Bitcoiners out there that are buying things like MicroStrategy instead of Bitcoin are still just living in Fiatlander, don't understand what's really happening here?

52:17I don't want to say that because I still now I'm exiting Canada. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And more on that, we can talk more about it. But I still have RSPs because there are tax and those RSPs, and I might not for much longer. Those RSPs are in our TFSA. In Canada, there's tax rules. but I still have, I bought microstrategy a long time ago. Now, I would never only do microstrategy. I convince everybody to, or tell everybody, have to get into self-custody Bitcoin, run a node, anything else. But if they wanted to have something in that, to each their own. I do think if people think that the returns forever will be way higher there, you'll have a bunch of more companies that will race in and lower their standards.

53:20It'll drive a massive hype cycle. And then probably the next down on the other side, all the broken bodies unwinding because they levered too much is going to be horrific for a bunch of those companies as they start selling their Bitcoin into the market at the same time they can't sell their Bitcoin and prices down. So it's going to be interesting to watch animal spirits on these things. Um, and, and I think, uh, and so again, it just goes back to that self custody, um, that, that people I would recommend them do it doing, but I can see a lot of people first and easier way they think to get in is this way.

54:04And then they, um, then they get rug pulled later on. Yeah, that makes, I could do a hundred percent to see that future coming. So you're voting with your feet, voting with your money and potentially leaving Canada? Yeah, I'm going through the process right now. Are you going to say where you're going or are you keeping that a secret? Yeah, I can't say where I'm going right now. And I'm, let's say 90 % right now, I'm doing the work to see if that's a viable option or when that's a viable option. And why is that? Is that because you see this kind of dystopian hellscape that we were talking about earlier coming to Canada?

54:46Yeah, I just see... If I look at Canada, where it's going, I just see that we're on the wrong path. Some countries are going to do a lot more printing, right? And convince a society that... And freedoms are going to be harder to define. Those countries will face wealth taxes, those confiscatory taxes, a whole bunch of things that will happen. And unfortunately, you can see citizens in those countries voting for more of that because they don't know what's actually happening. So there's this sort of like constant degradation in most Western countries at the moment. Which areas of the world do you think will benefit most from this transition?

55:37I think the global south, which has been extracted from for hundreds of years, right? More than that. But I think that many of those countries, maybe not the dictator or whoever in the country, but many of the citizens themselves in those countries. and you see this too, you've been to some of these regions with me, and you see these circular economies popping up and these people are on a new system and they're emerging. They've freed themselves from the same thing. And that's why this is true for every single human being on the planet. If they knew, they can move time and energy into the new system without, and they can't be stopped.

56:25And they actually have the most to gain in that, the sense that, as you say, they're just constantly extracted from. We're the beneficiaries of that in the West. But when you're under that rule, you have so much to gain by moving out of that system and moving to Bitcoin. Yeah. And I've said this on many podcasts in the past, but if you think about how technology evolves, it's always the new entrant. And in this case, it's even more powerful because this is a protocol, but let's just assume it was just a technology. So a difference there just for protocols are winner take all. Technologies are winner take most.

57:02And so, but new technologies, where did they emerge first, right? What typically happens is a monopoly, the biggest company pre the technology, never uses the technology. They try to block it. They try to stop it. And why? Because they're close to they're the monopoly, they have all the power. But the further away from the monopoly you are, who has little power, they always go first and they build and it disrupts from the outside in, the creative destruction, Joseph Schumpeter talked about it. And that's what's happening. And now if you just said the monopoly of money, most of the people that watch your podcast are at the top of the monopoly of money game.

57:52So at the bottom of that game, there's people that there's a greater incentive. They're further away from the monopoly and they go first. And so that's what's happening. That's why through that lens, it's really easy to see why El Salvador was the first country that went to Bitcoin standard. Yeah, it makes sense. I'm glad like every six months or so i need just my fill of jeff booth to kind of lock back in because when when you explain this to me it does make sense but it's very hard to carry that through to like the rest of your life like i'll i'll go out and i'll live in fiatland again at some point and uh i really enjoy getting you just to kind of hold me back in it's uh um but i think that that's a really good takeaway i think that's a good takeaway for anybody listening to this because that's the normal thing that people would do, right?

58:42You know this is true. And then what happens for even for people that aren't in Bitcoin at all right now, what they go to is they'll think, okay, I need to do this, but then have fear about how do I start? Where do I start? How do I do it? And then they'll stay in Fiatland, right? Things will get worse and worse and worse, and they'll see another podcast two years later, and then they might do the same thing again, right? And they'll do. And so it just takes starting with something. If you're spending 100 % of your time in Fiat land right now, spend 1 % in Bitcoin. Just get curious. If you're spending 1%, then 2%, then 4%, then 8%.

59:26And you'll notice, you'll feel it just like you feel it, Danny. Every time you move more time, your time is more valuable. It comes back to you. It's just a mirror. It just comes straight back to you and that your time is more valuable and you're giving your energy instead of having your energy extracted to feed this other system. You're truly choosing to give your energy to the system that has to give back to you. I mean, and that's, so I've taken your time on a Sunday here and I really appreciate you, uh, you doing this. You've been busy taking money from the old system to invest in the new Bitcoin system.

1:00:05You just raised$100 million. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. That fund was over. First of all, that's insane. Is that the largest Bitcoin fund ever? It is. Bitcoin only fund ever. And what's your plan with that? What do you want to, like, where are you looking? Where do you think the interesting things are? So what I would say is, you know, the last one we did, I think it was 26.2 million. And then we did an SPV for seven and a half. So just over 35 million in the first fund. But at that time, Bitcoin was at least as a protocol, lightning, liquid, Fetiment, a whole bunch of other stuff. It was just so, so early that you needed to spend time and help these companies mature.

1:00:49And the thesis was this would start to evolve and these second layers and third layers would evolve and you'd have this ecosystem that spread and then the velocity would increase from there. That's exactly what's happened. What's happened is in that fund, we don't, I'm not saying we won't, but we don't have a company that's failed. That is unreal for start up venture capital, seed stage venture capital without a company - What would you normally be looking at? Like One in 10 that would succeed. One in 10 would succeed. So to not have any companies that fail, one that's already going through an acquisition, two that are already very, very profitable and growing extraordinarily fast, and a bunch of others that are kind of chasing those.

1:01:45It makes sense that Series A fund, bigger funds would now start seeing what's happening and this ecosystem would be heating up and there'd be a whole bunch of value being created and more capital would chase companies that are winning and more of this ecosystem. So that's all that's happened, right? But it also describes how painful, how crazy early we are in this because the majority of capital is still going into crypto and other nonsense. But this capital is, Actually, this came from one of our company founders, and I loved it. And they were in Venezuela. And he said, what would it be like if you just held dollars, U.S.

1:02:38dollars, if you were in Venezuela? You would escape the currency devaluation. Because then what would it look like if you built a company creating more U.S. dollars in Venezuela? Now you have something real. You have something that your balance sheet is growing in dollars, and you're not just protecting a currency devaluation, you're building value in the free market. Now, every single person today, except for Bitcoiners, live in Venezuela. They just don't know it. And a lot of those Bitcoiners that live in Venezuela are just holding. What if they're building companies that are adding more to their balance sheet?

1:03:22by extending the free market. That's what's happening in venture capital. That's what's happening in these companies. And you still have to be right. There's more risk there than just buying Bitcoin. But there's also potentially incredible return because you're building. The only way you can create more Bitcoin on your balance sheet is to create more value in somebody else's eyes in the free market on top of Bitcoin. And by doing so, you extend both the free market and the things that are building and all the more value that's coming on top of Bitcoin, but you're also building a balance sheet in Bitcoin.

1:04:02Are there enough good early stage Bitcoin companies to actually deploy$100 million? Yes. Simply yes. We've been blown away by how much opportunity there is. It's wild when you're in here. And this is actually why I would, the same thing we were talking about before. I wouldn't have known this unless I moved all my time into it. I would have actually thought the same thing that most people are spending looking at this just from the sidelines and saying, oh, it's moving too slow, or there's nobody using it as payments. If you're inside the other world and you're spending all your time there, you wouldn't see how fast this is developing.

1:04:49But that also provides the opportunity for people too, because they could go to meetups, they could go to see other people, they could just spend more time. And by spending more time, they'll be infected because there's so much other opportunity here. I almost feel embarrassed, Jeff, that I've got the price of Bitcoin in dollars behind me this entire show. I just need to change that so it just says one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin. but um i massively appreciate the time thank you for uh taking an hour out of your sunday to do this um i'm gonna see you in a month in bali as well we'll go for a serve that's gonna be awesome so where do people find you jeff you're not really on twitter anymore are you noster only now yeah i'm noster only and i'm on noster only for the for the very same reason if you if you know where ai is going if you know where it already is and you're in a centralized uh system with ai and that's where you're getting all your information.

1:05:48You are being farmed. Are you actually, I've been closing out the show, but I should ask you about NOSTA. Are you going to invest in any NOSTA companies with ego death? So we haven't seen anything yet that, there's some good companies, but we haven't seen anything that right metrics, right valuation, right company, yet. We've looked at a whole bunch. The new fund is a series A fund, so they'd have to be further along. I see. Okay. And just remember why that's so hard, though, in the free market. Because Noster's at the protocol, that means any client on top of it can be another client can be spun up tomorrow, another one the next day, the next day, the next day so if you created a huge moat and you were extracting a whole bunch of margin you would have a competitor day two day three day four because you so so but that's how all of things look on bitcoin so you have to really be thoughtful and how am i going to give enduring value to users and make a little bit over over uh over time from that and so it's just that you have to be very thoughtful in your creation of what that model looks like.

1:07:12And then you're going to have to constantly innovate to deliver more value. And I think there's lots of exciting things coming through Nostr and the integration of Nostr and Lightning and Fetiment or Cashew, there's lots of different things coming, but it's just, we haven't seen anything yet that we've pulled the trigger on. But obviously this was a fund for Bitcoin companies. You'd still be open to doing like Nostr investments. Oh, of course. Yeah, like I'm very pro-NOSTA. Yeah, that's very cool. I mean, I've been spending more and more time there and it's just getting better and better. The UI of everything has improved so much in the last couple of years.

1:07:52I do feel like we're waiting for sort of the killer NOSTA app, though. Yeah, and I think that the killer NOSTA app isn't, I don't think, it won't look like most people are thinking it right now. It won't come from... a Twitter clone. I agree. Totally agree. It won't come from a YouTube clone. It'll come from something that's integrated that does this plus this plus something over here that creates a new space, new design space that we don't know yet. Yeah. I actually think white noise is really interesting. You know, they're doing this sort of encrypted chat, signal-like chat, but with NOSTA connections.

1:08:28I think that's cool. But I totally agree there. I don't think the Twitter clone, I think it's very hard to beat a centralized system in that way if you're just copying it. I think you need to do something new. Yeah. And, and, and why is that right? Because, because the new company has, or the new, yeah, new company or new protocol or has to deliver 10 times more value because of network effects, because of the network effect to overcome that network effect. Um, everybody, people don't change for a little bit of value. And if the new company has to market to all those people and you're spending money marketing, right?

1:09:03The, you're, You can't pull enough people away on a marketing budget. That's why you have to, it has to provide such compelling value. That's why I use 10 times more value than anything else to have a massive acceleration. Cause then, then it's not a market, the marketing that you're telling people you're better. The product is that much better in somebody's life. And unless we get like a crazy amount of censorship, I don't see how that wins. So that's the point. So most people through all of the, if you think about all of the bots and everything else, even with all of that and the censorship that you know is in X, that you know your likes and everything else are being oversubscribed to make it look like, appear that you're being seen by more people.

1:09:54you know all of these things exist and it still feels like this other thing for most people isn't 10x it might already be 10x it's just it would do people to realize that it's 10x better or it needs to be yeah I totally agree Jeff this has been amazing thank you for this I really appreciate it and I'm looking forward to hanging out in a few weeks time yeah me too thank you Jeff see you buddy

1:10:24Thank you.