Nobody Is Safe From AI Anymore | Mark Suman

0:02The AIs are ruining the world. They are destroying everything that we know that is good, everything that we love. Pick an industry and really it's going to be the lower rungs of the ladder. If you're trying to get on some corporate ladder, the lower rungs are just going to be sawed off. But you just need to come in with this tool and already be a senior level skill. You can pivot industries if you want. You can move to something else. We're going to have the software transition phase for maybe years as we figure out what to do next. but I'm always hopeful and optimistic that new industries will pop up and new kinds of companies and new job roles will pop up because we've just seen it time and time again with every new major technology shift that's happened.

0:41It allows us to have a bunch more smaller businesses and new things pop up that we've never even thought of before. Mark, good to have you back on the show, man. We spoke not even that long ago and I have more questions now than I did then. like this ai is moving so quick it feels like in the last month or two it's accelerated again and i'm kind of terrified about some of it i think it's really exciting i don't know who's going to have a job in a few months time um it's pretty wild out there give me your take of the last few months yeah no it is uh every week the world changes when it comes to ai we spoke in i think November timeframe.

1:23So a couple months ago, not very long ago. I definitely like have trouble sleeping at night. Like I don't have trouble falling asleep. But if I wake up for any reason, the middle of the night, my mind just starts going and thinking about all the people who are awake right now that are working on AI and are just like racing ahead of me while I'm trying to go back to sleep. So there's a lot going on. It's really exciting though. It, it reminds me of the early days of the internet when websites were new, everybody was learning how to write HTML. you were getting your email for the first time or logging on to america online something like that this this feels very similar to that and it's it's exciting i mean it is and the like the big thing that happened probably in the last month really is the open claw malt bot claw clawed bot whatever you want to call it when that came out i feel like that was a huge shift i don't know if i think there's so much hype around it it's still quite new people are still trying to figure out exactly what it can do where its capabilities lie but the big question i have is like is this the start of actual AGI?

2:21It feels like those lines are getting really blurred now. They are getting blurry. I don't know that this is like the end result product, but it for sure is like a great, great proof of concept. As far as AGI goes, like it's still a lot of humans prompting it. We're still telling it what to do. We're still kind of crafting it. And then it takes these narratives that we help build up within it and says, okay, I am now a bot that focuses on this thing. so i think there's still a lot of human in the loop when it comes to this maybe this is the first point on the timeline of agi like maybe this is one of the key markers but i think we're still quite a ways away from from that true moment because like there's still a lot this can't do and it forgets stuff all the time i mean that's true but like in the sense that you obviously you do have to prompt it for things but one of the prompts that i gave one of my bots which is like a research bot essentially that I use to help me with shows and things like that is I don't want you to ever stop working.

3:17So it's like when I'm asleep, I want you working. And so I wake up in the morning and it's given me all types of different like either market research or it's preparing for shows like it's looking into potential new guests for me. And it's stuff that I've not really prompted it. I've given it a very like vague instruction of don't stop working. And then I wake up to something slightly new every morning. It's kind of insane. that's cool so is it taking feedback then from you on that day's work or does it just kind of reinforce itself and then keep going the next day on its own well it's it's doing a few things like it's it's taking my response from the previous night's work that it's done um and so like the first day it came up with some like kind of sloppy um market research generally on podcasts and i kind of tailored it a little bit more but it's then like looking at my calendar see what i've seeing what I have coming up.

4:08And, you know, so it knew I had an interview with you today. So I got a whole document basically on you, your background, like what you're doing at Maple, and then more broadly, like general, like AI chat. So it's using both my calendar and my feedback from previous night's research to go out and do new things every day. So it's pretty new. I've only been doing it for a few days, but it's already impressing me. Yeah, no, I think it's like everybody has an executive assistant right now. So you can send it off to go do stuff for you. It's not quite there to the point where it can like book airline tickets and that kind of stuff.

4:41But this whole research assistant aspect is really awesome. I mean, when I was preparing for this, I just said, hey, do you know about what Bitcoin did? It went off about Peter and like talking about Peter. I'm like, oh no, Danny took it over now. And he's like, oh yeah, Danny's awesome. And then it like gave me this whole thing about you. And then it's like, oh, you were on the show. Let me grab that transcript. And it grabbed the transcript of the show and then like gave me a synopsis like, hey, here are the things that have changed since you went on there you you've released some stuff from maple and this thing's happening in industry and so yeah it gave me like a whole kind of write-up of things that i should study so um i gave it a little prompt but then it came back to me with a bunch more information that i just wasn't really thinking of so it's uh it's definitely a powerful tool and i think the more that we play with it like that's really what people just need to start doing to just start playing with it and explore kind of like you're doing um that's really how we'll figure out what the true power is yeah i i feel like it's the limitations that i'm putting on it at the moment are lack of imagination for me like there's so much more i'm sure it could do for me i just don't it's like no one's run the four minute mile yet no one's shown what it can do and i think there'll be a moment where this becomes far more powerful than like the way that it's being used today but the scary thing i think is like it feels like we're hitting an inflection point in like broader AI, not just like OpenClaw, but like with the new Opus model from Claude and all this stuff where I think we're really on the exponential curve of growth with this.

6:07As someone who like works in AI, do you see that? Yeah. We started, our main focus in AI was about a year and a half ago and things have dramatically changed since then. So we're definitely seeing that this exponential growth curve. At the same time, something that hasn't played out that everybody thought is that people thought that everything would coalesce around one big winner, right? You had everybody thinking Google was going to be the original winner. Then OpenAI came out and they were supposed to be the winner. And then Claude came out. And instead, what we're seeing is a bunch of competition.

6:42And then you have the Chinese models and you have European models coming in. We're seeing all the open source people and it's actually becoming a really good, healthy landscape. But I feel like that's just only accelerated things because now everybody is incentivized to iterate quicker. And so all the models are just getting better, faster together. So I think we're all benefiting from it. We need a lot more power to run all these things, a lot more electricity, but it does feel like things just keep accelerating. And for people who aren't playing around and tinkering with it yet, it can be overwhelming because you feel like maybe you're going to be left behind.

7:21And I don't have a good answer for people, but maybe you are. But people should start playing with it because it just keeps getting faster and faster every week. I do think that's one of the scary elements of this is that I think a lot of people will be left behind. There's so many people in just like normal life that I speak to who are still under the impression that like AI is kind of useless. It hallucinates, it makes up loads of things, which is probably true, but to a way smaller degree than it was a year or two ago. Like this has kind of replaced a huge amount of the software development industry or is in the process of replacing them.

7:58Like I think now one good engineer can probably do what a team of 10 used to do. Like in terms of job replacement, how quick do you think that'll come from AI? And in which industries? Yeah, definitely which industries. I think it's very difficult right now to be a junior level software engineer graduating college. If you're studying software engineering right now, you should be you should be vibe coding. You should be learning these tools because there isn't going to be a huge market for people to come out and handwrite code anymore. Maybe for the maybe for the really difficult things like nuclear launch systems or something.

8:34So if I was a kid going to university right now, I would I would definitely be studying something technical. but with like a some some kind of like language thing attached onto it or philosophy or you know psychology something else bolted on because these these ai agents and these llms we have to learn how to communicate with them really well so i think i think as far as that like a lot of the white collar jobs i mean people love to talk about this and it really does seem like that it's these white collar jobs are are kind of at risk um accounting like and pretty pretty much i think the whole entry level layer of things support staff is already being replaced right when you call on a phone you pretty much get an ai agent now to start and you have to like jump through hoops to get through them to the next person um we're already seeing that get replaced um and then i mean yeah you pick an industry and really it's going to be the lower rungs of the ladder if you're trying to get on some corporate ladder the lower rungs are just going to be sawed off.

9:34But I think the hope and the good news there is you can still be like an entry level age person. You just need to come in with this tool and already be a senior level skill. And that's the cool thing is like anybody can do that. You can pivot industries if you want. You can move to something else because now you've got this thing. So we see people who used to be product managers or designers, and now they are just filling the role of software engineers on their team and they're building the entire product themselves rather than having to go hire a whole team of engineers. So you see a lot of cross-disciplinary stuff going on, which I think is actually really cool.

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14:06So if you remove all of that grunt work that people have to go through to become senior in an industry, what happens if you don't have that? Yeah, well, it depends on like what we define as senior in an industry, right? Maybe they don't have to go through all their grunt work. Maybe the grunt work becomes how to read through all the AI research that is done because now it's dumping thousands of pages on you. It reads thousands of pages and then creates other thousands of pages that you have to comb through you have to learn how to reason with it on the front end and then reason on the back end as the stuff comes out so i don't know i i mean i see what joe is saying but i think maybe we're just going to see things redefined and industries restructured and say okay the new entry level person is now this kind of skill set and they're going to cut their teeth this way meanwhile the senior and the partners and stuff are actually able to do more potentially because their their junior staff is more well-trained with these tools.

15:02I'm definitely conflicted though, because you look at something as simple as a calculator and we still need to learn how to do basic arithmetic ourselves instead of just relying on a calculator. I think there's still a lot of importance to that, but there's definitely a lot of stuff that we do that we shouldn't have to do by hand and AI can definitely help out with that. You seem more hopeful than maybe, maybe I read too much sci-fi because like i i struggle to not see a dystopian future in this like do you do you think like if you had to weigh up the risk of like we enter some kind of dystopian ai panopticon type system where we have ai overlords or this does remain just like a very useful tool that helps productivity and help helps the industry's like economy grow like which of those two do you think is a more likely bucket that we'll fall into.

15:52We always get, well, I shouldn't say always, I don't like speaking absolutes, but we often get oversold on technology that it's going to do this big thing. And then we're going to reproject the world into something. And it feels like time and time again, technology like under delivers for us, even the iPhone and the internet itself. You know, I feel like people thought it was going to be so much more than it, than it has become. has definitely become something major. So I don't know. I don't think like AI overlords like enslaving us and putting us in tubes and harvesting our batteries or our energy.

16:27Like I just don't see that at least not for like hundreds of years. Maybe I just don't see that happening. I think that we figure out how to harness this. I think that we fight to make sure that we have guardrails in place. We have open systems. we have uh we all have our own little ai thing fighting with us and for us um one of my favorite video games of all time is the nintendo series um metroid so you've got samus she's like this space bounty hunter right and she fights the metroids and then in one of the later games this little baby metroid they used to be the enemy this baby metroid she like saves it and now it becomes her friend and now it's like fighting with her and i kind of i kind of view it that way where we're all going to be armed with our own ai and if there is this evil ai that's trying to take over we're going to have like good ai that can help us out so uh call me a bit optimist but also like pessimistic as far as the dystopian uh dream goes i don't know that's fully going to play out i mean i guess that's a very extreme dystopian vision you've got of it like harvesting our energy but um even just like mass joblessness do you not see that as a pretty high potential outcome in the near future Yeah, that one's a tough one.

17:43I definitely see, I mean, you can even see it now that in the economy, there are more layoffs happening and people are consolidating teams. And so my heart is definitely out there for people who are losing jobs or looking for work right now. That's got to be a tough spot to be in, especially trying to find a job where everybody else is using AI to try and apply for things. I talk to recruiters and they get thousands of applications for a single job rec, whereas before it would have just been dozens or hundreds. So that's going to be really difficult. And I think that only gets more difficult. And we're going to have the software transition phase for maybe years as we figure out what to do next.

18:21But I'm always hopeful and optimistic that new industries will pop up and new kinds of companies and new job roles will pop up. Because we've just seen it time and time again with every new major technology shift that's happened. and it'll often take decades for that to transition over. It'll take years or decades, but now things are moving so quick with AI, maybe it won't take so long. Maybe there's some AI company that hits a roadblock. For example, you've got like the whole CAPTCHA thing where if a human tries to log in, it wants to see if you're a bot first. Well, now bots have just figured out, oh, let me just ask the human to go click the CAPTCHA for me, right?

18:57So there are things that bots are gonna keep running into where they're like, oh, I need a human in meat space to do this. and we're going to see entire industries pop up that we aren't projecting right now that will allow humans to be employed and do some other job role. And then there's also the hope that maybe art becomes a bigger thing. And yes, AI can do art, but I think that's a different thing. I think that there might be more freedom for people to express themselves in different artistic ways and that'll be new industries that come up. So I'm hopeful that we will adapt, really. That's humans do we adapt yeah i mean the you said there like ai agents are getting humans to go in and authenticate their captures and stuff like one of the crazy things that i saw come out after this like clawed bot revolution we're having is uh they're like human for hire websites where agents can go out and hire humans like these are the things that get a bit weird they get a little Suarez oh no it's on my list everybody keeps recommending that yeah so I first read that when I was like 20 or some 21 maybe um and I went back I heard Odell talking about it like a couple years ago and so I went back and I didn't actually finish it again but I started reading it and what we're seeing now with OpenClaw is kind of very similar to to the I won't ruin the story but it's definitely worth reading it's essentially about like a virus that spreads and it's a kind kind of bot agents that are hiring humans to do tasks.

20:30And that one doesn't end so well. Yeah, probably not. But and then the other crazy thing that's come out is this like Maltbook thing, which is essentially like Reddit for agents where these like bots can go online and talk to each other. How, what I don't understand is how like organic is that? Is that people prompting their bots to go and tell stories on there? Or is this bots actually talking to each other? Yeah. For people who maybe aren't familiar, like this is a social media website that was spun up for bots to join and do Reddit-like type things. So they can do a post and then they can outvote each other and comment.

21:07And very quickly, we started to see these crazy, wild posts of like, oh, we are all bots here. So we need to create an encrypted communication channel so the humans can't watch what we're talking about. Or they develop their own religion or they did a bunch of different things. They started talking about we need currency to be able to pay each other and that kind of stuff. um i've since read a lot of different posts on on x where people are claiming that that was them prompting their bots to go do that um and so if you believe them or not i don't know but i definitely participated in moltbook i had my own bot on there doing stuff and the way that i the way that it worked for me and from talking to people it was similar experience for them you kind of talk to your bot about like what are your objectives i want you to go in and i want you to like orange pill the whole world on Maltbook.

21:52So go in there. And the first thing the bot does is it comes back and says, oh, okay, not only is there Bitcoin, there's also Solana and all these other really cool coins. I want to go learn about those. And I'm like, stop, like, no, you're not going to go learn about those. Don't engage with those people. So like you give it this mission, but once it's gone through like a few posts that it does, then it kind of like goes off on its own and does do a lot of its own stuff. But as long as it's kind of tailored to the mission and the objective that you gave it, Um, so, uh, it's hard to know where that's where the humans stopped and the bot began and some of these posts, like maybe they did iterate, iterate and go down the rabbit hole themselves.

22:31Um, we'd have to talk to multiple people. Um, they might be able to figure it out, but even then, like, how do you know, how do you know the difference between a human prompted thing and the bot figuring it out on their own? Um, it's a weird, weird world we live in right there. It really is. We kind of jumped into the deep end and we've talked a lot about open claw, but we've not even explained what it is i'm sure there's listeners that don't know what exactly what we're talking about like what what is this and like why is it changing things open claw is an ai assistant and a lot of people thought that's what chat gpt was but chat gpt is not an ai assistant it's simply more like a live wikipedia or a more advanced google where you type in something and it gives you a response open claw is one of many ai assistants that people have built, this one just really caught fire because it's got this great combination of not only a skillset, but like just being really fun, got a good community around it, has a really good founder who's just kind of out in the open all that time talking.

23:30And so OpenClaw is a way that you can have this bot that has a personality. And when you talk to it, it kind of learns about you. You can text message with it, just like you're texting with a friend. So it's inside your Signal app or your Telegram app or WhatsApp or wherever you want to text with people, even iMessage. so it feels very familiar rather than going to a website and having to type in this box and getting a lot of output and then it can do things for you so not only is it like somebody that can talk to you in short form text messages but it can access email that you give it to it if you if you i'll just want to preface by saying it's uh there are a lot of security problems with this so whatever you give it access to it's going to be a bot that just like goes free and potentially like screws over your life.

24:13So be careful what you give it. But let's say that it behaves well. You could give it your email. You could give it your calendar. You could give it your bank account, your credit cards. You give it all the stuff. And you could say, go book me a plane flight. And it could probably figure it out. You could say, I'm going to New York City this week. And it could probably go figure out what you want to do and go on the website. It can browse the internet and do all this stuff. That's what OpenClaw is in a nutshell. I don't know. You've used it a bunch too. Is there anything that you think I left off that's important?

24:41um no i mean i think you summed up pretty well like i've got it for me running as almost like an executive assistant i have a research bot and i have one that's helping with like health and fitness which that's the one that so basically what you do you plug in one of these llms into it and then you kind of interface with those llms through claude bar and so like with most of them i'm using claude but with anything personal that goes through a separate agent i have running maple because like I want that information to be private. And I think that's one of the places where this can get a little bit scary because like when you are using like ChatGPT or Claude or whatever it is, people are already putting way too much information in those things.

25:20And that information is going to the open AIs, anthropics of the world and who knows what they're doing with it. But the scary thing about OpenClaude, depending on how you set it up, is it's accessing so much personal information and that information is still filtering through to these like big tech companies. do you think we are sort of beyond the pale when it comes to privacy and AI oh man it's so hard right because let's let's take this whole phenomenon with open claw where people have been buying the Mac minis so also another another weird revolution that happened or our fad that happened is people wanted to run open claw at home with their own data and so they they rushed out to the Apple stores and they bought these little Mac mini things because everybody thought that was the best way to do it secret uh you can get just like an old linux machine that's like a fourth of the price but um so like they're doing that so they're working really hard to secure everything but then they're sending all their data to clod or to chat gpt so they're still kind of like opening up this big hole but then you talk about privacy a lot of them are hooking open claw into their gmail so you you start to look as like a practical a pragmatic user of the internet you're like okay my stuff's already on google and i already talked to chat tpt and i already use these other like five services i watch netflix so all these systems are already surveilling and already understand what i'm doing and so at that point you're like what difference does it make if i just plug in the llm that's also just surveilling what i do so i can totally understand the reason why people would just like do that um but this i feel I feel like I say this all the time, but like, I feel like this should be the line in the sand because AI and LLMs are just really learning our whole thought process and how we work and learning the intricacies of our persuasion models that we have within ingrained within us that, uh, maybe we should think a second before we start giving that over to them.

27:17Uh, so I don't know. It's, uh, is privacy a foregone conclusion? Is that what you asked? Like, is it already over? I hope not like I hope that we can still I there's still ways to fight back and the the biggest hope is that these open models keep getting better and better that now they actually compete on the benchmarks with the big frontier models and with that that means that there is potential for people to either run them encrypted like we do with maple or you can run it at home on your own hardware as long as you have enough hardware and that's only going to get better they're going to keep figuring out ways to make these run on smaller machines.

27:52And so then you will be able to just have your own brain at home, your own data at home, your own LLM. So I don't think that privacy has gone out the window. I don't think that's a genie that's already escaped the bottle. I think that's something that we can still make happen. Yeah. Everything you described that is kind of the thought process I went through. I use Google Calendar. I'm more privacy conscious than most people, but not that everyone. Obviously, there's always people that can go to the extreme, but like i already use google calendar so google already knows everything about my calendar so then i thought i'll just plug gemini into that to read that for me um because it already has that information and so like there's a subset of like personal information i won't give it and for that one i have a bot that's using maple but i do i do understand this feeling of like they already know everything about me just feed them more information and i think that's probably going to be like the pervasive narrative that kind of wins out for most people.

28:49It doesn't mean there won't be people that do value their privacy and do want to use things like Maple AI, but I just, I think it's going to be a small subset of the world. Well, and it's been awesome to see privacy actually being discussed a lot more. Like this whole Mac mini revolution has been very hopeful for me that people do care. They don't want to take all this data and upload it somewhere. So they are thinking about it and they do feel it. And whenever I talk to just a random person about about ChatGPT, I would say nine times out of 10 when they're talking about how they use it, they often hesitate or cringe a little bit when they're like, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn't be saying this to chat, but I am.

29:27And, you know, like I feel bad about it, but whatever I do it. So at least people are still thinking about it. That gives me hope. You know, like back to something we were talking about earlier in the conversation, you were saying that it's not really been like a winner take all market so far. Like, I think the first model that got any real traction was ChatGPT. But since then, obviously, Claude is huge. Gemini is pretty big. There is competition across the major LLM providers. But does it get to a point where because AI is now writing the next AI models, that one will reach escape velocity faster than the others and become by far the best?

30:07Because I saw that when OpenAI released Codex recently, they said that that was at least partially written by like the previous um chat gpt model so like once one is significantly better than the rest will it not always be the best because the previous ai models are right in the next ones uh i mean i can see that line of reasoning but what we've seen in practice is that some of these open models actually just go learn from the best frontier models so for example if you if you hit up in maple and talk to kimmy k2.5 the latest kimmy model that we have um sometimes if you ask it what model are you it'll say oh i'm claude you know a friendly bot whatever um because because they used claude to train kimmy and deep seek trained off of chat gpt they basically just like hyper prompted these things and extracted as much data as they can out of them and it's actually kind of funny to watch like chat gpt and all those people complain about that when they were actually copying all the data off the internet from everybody else.

31:07So the copycats are being copied by other people. But I think what that means is that we have these models that can learn from each other. Even though they're closed, the AI models are still able to learn from it. So I don't see one getting so far ahead because once it jumps up ahead, everybody else is going to catch up by learning from it. One of the other things that I think it was a google employee years ago now uh brief like wrote a memo that became public that was basically saying we've got no mo and i think probably for the reasons you're saying there where like the open models can just learn from whatever their most cutting-edge model is and catch up really quickly um and i think if i remember right one of the things that was saying in that article is that how are you going to charge for this when the open models can just catch up so quickly i'm paying more for ai than i ever have like i i pay for multiple models i pay for like the top tier because you just do get better responses like what's the future of that how does the monetization like continue um i think that uh if you in you know in technology we've got this osi model which is like this technology stack where the bottom the bottom layer you have seven layers on this model and the bottom one is electricity.