The Spiritual War for Bitcoin | American HODL, Erik Cason & Marty Bent

27:20I don't know. I'm looking at my demo right now. My core demo is 35 to 44 at 25%. The next is 45 to 54 at 24, and then it's 55 to 64 and then it's 65 plus, and then it drops down to 25, 34. So it's not even millennials of my age, which is crazy. I don't know if it's the type of content we do, but I'm sure yours is similar for some reason. the zoomers who are arguably the most important cohort for us to go out and convert to recognizing this third way of doing things or just not getting this information from what i can tell i do wonder though like because when i got into bitcoin i didn't have very much money at all but and bitcoin seemed expensive then and like relatively it was obviously not like do you think that's just unit bias they're like how can i you know gain from this thing when I can just go and punt on meme stocks or whatever.

28:12I think we're just living in a completely different world. I've come to realize this in the last three years. I don't get Zoomer culture at all. No, I got that. 6-7 or something like that. 6-7. What does that mean? I have no idea what it is, and apparently it's the biggest thing. Yeah, I've never even heard of that. I think the thing that's hard as a millennial to understand about Zoomers is that just how pronounced the nihilism is. I think like we all go on Twitter and we're like, oh my God, things are just getting worse every day. But we still have this sort of inherent like boomer utopianism because we were like real optimism because we were raised by the boomers.

28:51And so we kind of think that, I don't know, things are pretty shit, but like, I think we can pull it out. Like maybe we can make it work, you know? And so Bitcoin is a, you know, it's a philosophy of rational optimism because you're basically saying like, I have a future and I'm going to like plan for my future. And I'm going to do that with Bitcoin. But if you've totally swallowed the black pill, then you're basically saying like, I'm waiting for the revolution. And if the revolution ever comes, I'll just kill myself. And I think unfortunately, that's what's going on with a lot of people in the Gen Z demographic.

29:26And what I would say to them is basically like, listen, the generational divide, whatever. Millennials are cringe. Yeah, of course we're cringe. that's our thing dog uh you guys need to care about yourself and you need to like start making some plans because you do have a future no matter what happens the world gets really bad the world goes dark whatever it's like the sun is still going to come up and people are still going to go to work and people are still going to raise their families like you have a future and so you need to plan accordingly as if you have a future and you need to do that in a rationally optimistic way, you know, I think with Bitcoin, but like in all aspects of your life, you should plan that you're going to be here in the next 10 years because the people that aren't, that don't plan to be here, they end up in woeful circumstances.

30:10They're still here. They don't die. They're still here 10, 20, 30 years from now. And they end up in just these awful circumstances with just these miserable lives. And you don't want that to be you. I mean, to be fair to like steelman the black pill argument, like it, it's like really strong. It kind of reminds me of like the fish parable but with darkness it's like hey kids like how's the light today and like you know the fish in fact they're like what's light you know because like like look at look at the demographics and the statistics that like uh they grew up with a generation of parents who like already believed like the climate crisis doomerism ai doomerism like i'm the heart of ai like it's fucking bananas that like i don't think i've met a single person well there's one guy but outside of him i don't think i've met a single ai person that like has a non-black-pilled version so like ai is going to murder everybody anyways uh like the the politics are completely fucked across the board the idea of them living moving out of their parents basement is a distant dream you know that the idea of just getting a room in the house and not living in the basement is like a dream so like they have a pretty strong argument for like why should i give a fuck about myself or the future because it's not going to come.

31:20And this is one of the places where like, that's why I think that like insane communism works because it's like, hey, if you join my communist party, we're just going to kill the boomers and steal their shit and redistribute their housing to you. So would you like to take up arms for the great communist cause? I'm like, that's like a pretty appealing thing at this point in time. And it's fucking terrifying. And I wish that this would actually get the boomers to the table in a meaningful way to go. Oh yeah, we did actually fuck everything up rewarded ourselves and then sold our children down the river and now our grandchildren are going to murder us for that you know like that that seems to be like a probabilistical outcome and the thing that that i find deeply resentful of is that like when at least in my case when this has been presented to boomers you kind of just get a shrug and they're kind of like i'm like i'm 10 feet away from the grave anyway like don't care yeah and so like in all honesty Like, again, I think this brings it back to us and our demographic.

32:18And like, it kind of sucks to admit it. But like, I think we just have to actually do something, even though I'm like pretty resistant to it. And like, this is absolutely idiotic that it's like magic internet money is here to save everybody from the nihilistic hellhole that the world is becoming. But this seems to be the narrative that we're on the course for. So I guess let's just get it done before it gets fucking harder. I do think like when you talk about we're going to move to either communism or fascism, Like the communist outcome is really easy to predict, especially with AI. Like you can see UBI is almost like baked in the cake at this point to me.

32:54Like I don't understand how we can have anything else. Do you think that's the most likely outcome here? No, I think the fascist outcome is the most likely outcome. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, because the surveillance state has already been built and it works whether you're a communist, you know, oligarchy or a fascist dictator. And I think that the call to, you know, restoring Western society to what it once was, because, you know, many of the people alive have seen it deteriorate, I think is going to be a pretty strong call. And all you need is a, you know, a charismatic, you know, dictator type to come and say he's going to fix everything.

33:32and a lot of people who are otherwise normal, hardworking, conservative, you know, family people will have this, the opposite brain worm of the communist brain worm and say to themselves, well, I do want things to go back to normal. So let's grant this guy unlimited power. And that is, you know, the road to hell. But if you're staring down two forks in the road and they're both the road to hell, that's the road to hell that's more comfortable and easier to take, I think, for the vast majority of Western people. Well, and to be very clear that, like, fascism was an explicit development as a counter-communist movement.

34:15Right. Like, Mussolini was an anarchist before he created the fascist movement. And, like, that's part of the reasoning is when he saw what communism was doing after, I'm trying to remember the Italian movement that got communism and power in Italy, and he saw the sort of damage it was doing to culture. It's only after that, that the fascist movement sort of gained steam. In addition to like, we're just talking about variants of socialism. Fascism is literally a brand of nationalized socialism. And like, this is one of the main dividing things that a lot of people don't understand is something that sets socialism apart from communism is that socialism is just a nationalized brand, whereas international socialism is communist.

34:58And so it's like, through that methodology, you get to be like, oh, Americanism is an actual special cultural thing. We do need to kick all the immigrants out. That's something that we need to protect as a national identity for ourselves. Whereas communism is just like no borders. Everybody can participate equally. We're going to seize the means of production and redistribute it because that worked out super well in the 20th century and nobody was ever harmed from it. In addition to fascism died a death in an early grave, so it's kind of a general spooky name. Like we haven't outside of because also I'd make the argument that stuff like Francoism, what we saw in Portugal and all the stuff that we saw in Latin America.

35:38Like, I don't think I think those were authoritarian movements as opposed to fascist ones. This is highly debatable. But like, I think fascism is still an open ended question, particularly here in America. Yeah. Yeah, and essentially, like, as the communists rise into power, it seems that it'll have great appeal, because instead of me needing to appeal to all of the masses, you essentially go to three dozen billionaire tech founders, and you say, give me the fucking power, or people are going to kill you. And they'll go, yeah, that sounds good. Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

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39:25I think about this quite a lot, Eric. And to me, it's like, I really do think the thing I said earlier about us walking the middle path is kind of the arduous journey that we have set ourselves upon. We didn't do that initially, but that's just where we find ourselves. And I do think that it is going to be a cohort of, you know, millennial aged men who believe in freedom that are going to be the most significant players in the fourth turning. And I think it's, you know, it's easy to look at what's going on and like get riled up and kind of like join a side. Like, you know, I'm with the fascists.

40:14I'm with the comics. And I just, I think that's just not what we should be doing. I think Bitcoiners need to continue to walk the middle path and, you know, knowing that it's the most dangerous path, but it has the best outcomes. And so that's why you have to walk it, you know. To recuse myself, I 100 % agree with you. I also do think it is absolutely the most difficult path, the most challenging path, and one that's just going to take a lot of difficult and hard work. but the more and more that I spend time here kind of running this down, the more and more that like, it's actually pretty essential, but it's also like, who does this?

40:57How does it form? How does it get pushed forward? And you know, the last time we talked about the Charlie Kirk assassination, like he was making massive inroads with the youth and the way that he was starting to direct kind of a new political vision. So I guess we kind of need something like that for Bitcoin, but I don't know, maybe even a wider view of that like, I guess we sort of just need a third party and it just needs to start being a mass political movement that like this is not about right or left, but it's really just about like we need to get a sane money system that isn't biased towards politics anymore.

41:30And Bitcoin is that actual answer. Well, does it even need to be a political moment? A political movement should just be social, right? Because this is what I think a lot about is like the sly roundabout way to take money out of the hands of the government. And that's the one thing, particularly when it comes to right versus left, red versus blue, and even the introduction of a third party. It's like, is solving these problems by political means, are you ultimately going to end up with communism versus fascism? Or can we do our part in the free market as Bitcoiners to convince enough critical mass of people to adopt Bitcoin and integrate it into their lives where they're able to save themselves instead of trying to work through the political apparatus to try and force the politicians to save them?

42:20And this is why, I mean, to sprinkle in some white pills here. That's why it's really encouraging to see Square release Bitcoin for small businesses in our point-of-sale systems. It's great to see. I mean, to your point, Eric, a big problem for Zoomers specifically is, I think, Cornerstone, literally the base layer of Maslow's hierarchy, needs shelter. And people don't think they can buy homes. So introducing Bitcoin as collateral and mortgages in very early days, we can squint and see if it takes off. Like people, particularly boomers and people that have houses right now can begin to care less about the equity value of their houses and really just let the equity value of the Bitcoin do the work and sell the properties off at a cheaper value to people who need it.

43:11And I think it's just trying to get Bitcoin stuffed in as many nooks and crannies of the economy as possible as quickly as possible. Yeah, that's the white pill on the Sue Coiner narrative as well, right? Is that it creates alignment between people who are non-Bitcoiners and Bitcoiners. So, the original Citadel post is talking about how the world is horrible outside the Citadel and Bitcoiners live in the Citadel and everything is fine in the Citadel or whatever. That's not a world you want to live in because you're under siege every day. You don't want to be under siege every day. You want to live in a good world where your neighbors are prosperous as well.

43:53And so, I think that when we look at the stuff that's going on with treasury companies, for instance, that's embedding a lot of Bitcoin in the public markets. And as they make their way into the Qs and they make their way into the S &P 500, these different treasury co's, more people have more exposure to Bitcoin. And so if Bitcoin is demonetizing fiat currency, well, there's 166 million Americans who are going to have exposure to that via broad market index funds. And that's not a bad thing. It's a bad thing for Bitcoin's maybe political goals and aspirations, but it's not a bad thing in terms of alignment with our fellow citizens.

44:31It's a way to orange pill people without them even knowing they've been orange pill, essentially. And I think that that is a silver lining. It's a bright spot. It's not purely negative, in my view. I agree it's not purely negative, but there are negative externalities from that in the sense that people aren't actually owning Bitcoin. there's a massive centralization of coins. Like, Marty, I've not really heard you talk about the treasury company stuff. What's your take on it? Marty C.: A bit nuanced. Like, I think the pure play Bitcoin treasury companies that are just going public to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible.

45:08Like, I've said this many times on RHR over the last year, I think it's going to be a Pareto distribution. I think it's a success. I think it's an economy as a scale game if you're trying to weaponize capital markets. So I think The pure play Bitcoin treasury companies, there'll be maybe five that actually get significant market share to sustain themselves in a long time. And I think they're certainly interesting. I mean, it's hard not to find interest in them considering what strategy is done specifically. But what I'm more focused on is the operating businesses. Again, like leaning back on Square's implementation of Bitcoin and the point of sale systems.

45:48And I don't think it's going to be, I think the predominant use case of that is people, merchants that become Bitcoiners are sweeping funds into Bitcoin automatically. I don't think like paying with Bitcoin at POS systems is really going to expand beyond sort of our circles for a few years. but the ability to get small and medium-sized businesses onto a Bitcoin standard is going to be massive. Yeah, treasury companies are a distraction to a degree in both directions. Like, one, people focus on number go up, and you have, like, the master north and all the stock influencers popping up and really trying to drive people towards that.

46:30But then I think in the other direction, too, people saying, like, oh, Bitcoin is distracted, like, number go up, so that cares. If you pay attention, I wrote about it last night in the newsletter. Some dude with six bid axes and an Avalon queue mined a block by himself. He was self-hosting a node, self-hosting his own pool instance, and running his computers in his living room, and mined a Bitcoin block and contributed to a$2.5 trillion monetary network. That's mind-blowing. That cypherpunk ethos is not only still alive, it's still possible, which is the most important thing. And like the other things, like you look at ARK launching, Cashew and Fetty Mint sort of eCash Mint's becoming more mature.

47:11I think while number go up, particularly in the context of Bitcoin treasury companies and the narratives around Saylor and others, doing that play is a distraction to an extent. but not only a distraction for people enamored by number go up, but by regulators and suits who are like, oh, we've successfully cucked Bitcoin. But I think the cypherpunk movement within Bitcoin is more alive than it has been in many years, particularly with these second layer solutions focused on privacy. I think that guy who mined a block with his bit access is fucking awesome. Like minor centralization has been one of the things that I guess has been a big concern of a lot of people for quite a while now.

47:53Do you think the tide is kind of turning there, Marty, with things like the heat punk stuff, like Bitaxes, like Datum and Stratton V2, all that stuff? Definitely. I mean, I think it's twofold. It's that you have this energy and focus in the open source mining community, both on the hardware, firmware, software pool. Like there's definitely a critical mass of people focused on building out those capabilities for people. But then the second fold thing is like we're reaching ASIC modifications. So these use cases actually are viable now. It's much easier to do them in a somewhat economic way. They're not all going to be profitable, but we're getting closer to the point where you can integrate Bitcoin miners at home pretty easily.

48:41And many people may be able to do it profitably depending on where they live and how they're using the heat. And I think it's trending in the right direction. I think I would not be surprised if we look back and mining centralization, like peak mining centralization was at some point before this date. I think the emergence of Proto, who knows how they're performed, but I think this at-home mining trend and theme that we're maybe seeing growing over the last three years specifically is only getting stronger. And I've talked to Tyler Stevens from Exergy and there's many others. I think I will not be surprised if sort of commercial Bitcoin mining being used as waste heat for industrial purposes becomes mainstream in the next decade, and that helps to distribute hash rate ownership, distribute hash rate geographically, and then most importantly with the pool software being open source and then becoming easier to self-host your own node and your own pool instance and reliably mine a block if you find a hash in your living room to your self-hosted node.

49:49like that's going to be massive for the network yeah i mean if we get to a world where people using bitcoin for their mortgages heating the houses using bitcoin mining like that seems like a very positive like insanely positive place to be but like all of this comes down to adoption like from everything all of you guys have said like eric this is how we stop the world turning to like fascism or communism like do you think all the infighting that's happening in bitcoin is basically just like people playing silly games when there's way more important stuff to be doing i i totally think so you know i'm like i think uh i i mean the fact that op return is the thing that we're debating about so heavily as opposed to something like op cat or something goes to show like how how how little technical information is actually out there uh how much this widow echo chamber is like its own thing in addition to like i just want to echo marty's sentiment of giving a little bit of my own white pill of that.

50:45It's interesting because cypherpunks inherently can't be loud. So even though that has generated its own critical mass of movement, they're sort of silent individuals. So I've been surprised at the number of people that will pop up on the radar who are doing really cool and interesting stuff, but they don't make any noise simply because that's sort of how they move. It's a really positive thing. So like ultimately, like, I think while I can get quite nihilistic about this political front, like we've made huge inroads in addition to the idea of that, like using Bitcoin's heat, like that's always going to achieve a larger economic efficiency than just outright mining Bitcoin.

51:25So like at some point we move in that direction in addition to like what happens when we've become efficient enough with this stuff that like you can find a place up in northern Alaska that's like, hey, everybody just gets free energy and eat here because of the way that we've set up the infrastructure of this new city that's going to provide all these new different services. You know, I'm like, that's, that's kind of one of the places that I ultimately think the greatest affect is going to be had is like, what happens when we actually make massive infrastructural changes towards, like, the way that mining decentralization occurs, and also like how we're going to innovate around this.

52:01So like ultimately, like, you know, the old nomad of like everything's good for Bitcoin. So I think like as things move in a direction and as the general world sort of becomes darker and more nihilistic, that lets the light of Bitcoin sort of shine all the brighter in that darkness. And as it pertains to the infighting within Bitcoin about OpReturn, I don't think anybody outside of the Twitter or Noster bubbles is seeing any of that, nor do they care, nor should they, because it's noise. Yeah. In terms of distracting us from actually working on more worthwhile endeavors, I think that's certainly happening, at least to some people.

52:39My whole, I know you said you wanted to talk about it, my whole, I've tried my hardest over the last six months. I did the live stream at Bitcoin Plus Plus in Austin in May for two days, did eight hours of content on the subject. And then after that, I was like, I think the best move is just to not talk about this and suck the oxygen out of the conversation because it's so idiotic in my mind. Yeah. So I do, I've done shows on it, so I've not done the same thing as you there. But like, I understand why you want to kind of ignore it in a sense that like maybe it is just people on Twitter that care about it.

53:13But the number of people that are getting sort of riled up about this is it's quite large. Like, I think there's definitely some sort of bots and some sort of fake signal in there. But like people are getting very angry. And now there's this like new proposed soft fork, which is, I mean, for anyone who's not been paying attention, like good on you. But it's basically like a temporary soft fork to mitigate spam. And like this actually does worry me. I'm going to pull up a tweet because this summed it up way better than I could. So Bitpain tweeted the other day. It's this last bit here that I thought was really good.

53:49He said, once you grant the state that you can take efforts to mitigate illicit material, they'll start demanding it, including for monetary transactions they don't like. And if you've accepted that you have a community-wide moral imperative to censor, you don't have a leg to stand on. Like that is my fear in this, is that like this is getting serious sort of traction from a subset of Bitcoiners. and what are the implications of us doing something about it? I don't think they're going to be able to solve for it. I don't think you need to convince a lot of people to do it. I guess going back to the op return debate, this is all I'll say, I'll throw it to you, Eric, but it's consensus valid.

54:26It always falls back to this for me. It's consensus valid. I don't know what we're fighting about over here. It's within Bitcoin's consensus rules. It's nice that I didn't get to just have my outburst there, because I probably would have gone on a totally unhinged rant. Look, like, if you're worried about the state doing stuff, like, get the fuck out of it. Like, I don't know what you're doing here. I don't understand why you're interested in this project. Like, when I got involved, there was nobody in the state that paid any attention to it, nor could they stop it. Like, the thing that was happening was the Silk Road.

55:01And, like, it did that, and it did it fucking well, and that it massively improved people's assets. access to being able to get illegal substances and other things. If you're worried about your Bitcoin node running and having the state come kick down in your door, you should probably think about Ripple. That's probably the right answer for you and what you want. They're going to comply with the state. They're really interested in regulation. You should go check out that project. If you're interested in uncensorable money that you can use right now to send people in Gaza money if you want, or help people escape from North Korea, or do whatever the fuck you want, You should stay here.

55:38And also, like, this is the one that upsets me the most, is that, like, you should really think very hard about if you're advocating very strongly for one of these sides, why it is all of the highly technical people seem to be on one side of the debate. I'm not saying that that's necessarily the right argument, because from the very beginning of this whole fucking shit show, me and Steve Lee had a great dialogue with each other where I was like, this shit isn't going to go away, and it's going to bite everybody in the ass, And the big problem is because everyone's talking past each other. The tech bros are trying to tech explain to all of the plebs and the plebs are trying to explain in their particular way and methodology of why they feel totally disrespected.

56:20And like what tech explaining is that it's not something that lands for them. But unfortunately, we've all been talking past each other at this point in time. And meanwhile, the state is trying to pass all kinds of fucked up regulations to make it so that we can't actually have self-ownership of our wallets. Like there's a real fucking crisis going on and it's not op return. And you should really ask yourself if you're being a useful idiot within this dialogue or if you're doing something useful. I would really like to see a lot more people take a couple step back and go, maybe there's something I'm missing here because I sure as fuck don't know everything.

56:56And perhaps there are other people that both have more technical expertise than me. And for those that do have the technical expertise, I implore you to actually have somewhat respect for other individuals that are involved in Bitcoin. and maybe they don't have the technical acuma as you do, but they have still meaningfully participated in the success of Bitcoin. So with that being said, I hope everybody can shut the fuck up for a little while and take a moment to listen to each other and stop being such goddamn assholes to each other. Because that's the biggest thing that's upsetting me the most is that we can totally disagree, we can totally have respectful dialogue, and when you're calling people fucking idiots or morons or diff shits or fuckfaces, You're really doing yourself a disservice and actually furthering the dialogue in a meaningful way.

57:45Oh, but you get to look cool on Twitter. So maybe you should continue with that bullshit. So that was actually like a pretty hinged rant, actually. I don't think I actually totally flew off the can there. Why do you think this has captured so many people's imagination, HODL? You know, is it people trying to feel like they're important to Bitcoin? I know what you're thinking. I think it's a LARP of people that miss the block size war and want to feel that they are contributing to Bitcoin. I'm not even saying that from the perspective of somebody who was a key player in the block size war. I was a nobody.

58:21I was a noob. I was confused during the block size war. I didn't make any meaningful contributions. I found myself on the wrong side of the block size war half the time, and I didn't get on the right side until the very end. And so like, you know, these extremely technical arguments are usually at core ideological in some way. And I feel like there's this weird desire in Bitcoin to recapitulate the block size war over and over and over again to feel like we are exerting our grassroots power over Bitcoin in some way. But, you know, the block size war was existential. And since then, I don't think many of the conflicts have been existential.

59:02I don't think Ordinals was existential. I don't think this operaturn drama is existential. You know, I think like Taproot was a good example. Like we spent way too much time focused on the activation path for Taproot rather than what Taproot actually was. Everybody just kind of like rubber stamp Taproot and was like, yeah, sure, no big deal. We love Taproot. Now let's talk about how to activate it because everyone had fucking PTSD from the block size war. And I think that was probably the wrong thing to do. Like we should have been taking more time to have more, you know, dialogue about what Taproot was, what it enabled, what its second, third order effects were.

59:37And I don't know, I just, I find that like, you know, earlier people, I don't know if we said this on camera, off camera, but like there's spooks on, somebody was saying there's spooks on one side, there's spooks on all sides of Bitcoin development. You know what I mean? Like you should just kind of bluntly assume your favorite Bitcoin developer is probably an intelligence asset just because that's the model. That's the risk model. So like, yeah, man, I don't know. I don't think I have anything meaningful really to contribute other than I think a lot of it is LARPing. Yeah. They're all spooks as a side up.

1:00:11But Marty, I agree they're not going to be able to soft fork. I don't think they're going to get enough people on board with this, but they can hard fork. Do you think we might see a rage quit over this? I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, just using a pattern recognition from 13 years in Bitcoin, There'll probably be one or two rage quits at some point. But - That's what we need for the next bull market. I'll take some free coins if anyone wants the hard part. I'll take the intro. I mean, reflecting on 17 years of Bitcoin and my time in Bitcoin, that's the hardest thing to do is to stay sane throughout all of this, throughout the price volatility, throughout all these protocol wars, whatever you want to call them.

1:00:52and it's just trying to keep a level head and not become too maniacal or ego maniacal about it and try to make yourself the main character. Yeah, that's kind of the funny thing about it is like you can get wrapped up in all this drama and you can try and do things, or you can just do nothing and you win. Yeah. Doing nothing is actually always the best move in Bitcoin. Always. You know? Oh, you got hyped up and bought a treasury company? Guess what? It's a penny stock now. Oh, you wanted to trade shit coins? guess what? All your money's gone. Oh, you picked the wrong side of the fork. Oh, guess what?

1:01:25All your money's gone. Doing nothing is really key. But it's kind of hilarious how hard people find it to do nothing. It's the hardest thing. It's so hard. It's so much harder than... Yeah, doing a hundred things is so much easier than doing nothing. Doing nothing is fucking difficult. I have deep existentialism about what it means that buying Bitcoin and then doing nothing with it for a decade, like, turns out to be the best economic decision that you could have ever made that fundamentally negates the entirety of all work you've ever done. And, like, it's shocking, because like, I told people that a decade ago, they come back to me being like, I missed the boat.

1:02:07I'm like, do it again. Just, like, buy the Bitcoin. The next decade. And then, like, you're good all over again. Like, totally fine. But, like, it's just such an un-fucking-believable thing that, uh, Like the fact that Bitcoin can actually have its fixed supply and like not violate that predication by any means outside of, you know, like a 51 % attack, which we've all been figured out, like that's a monumental achievement that like continues to allow for number go up. And like, I don't know, it's very interesting to me that like the world of fiat has fucked everything up so much that just buying magic internet money and doing nothing with it is like the best economic decision that most of us will ever make.

1:02:55So there's something to be said for that. I'm not sure what it is, but. It's one of the things I think about quite a bit in terms of like the financialization of Bitcoin, Wall Street coming, nation states coming, like doing nothing is like the antithesis of Wall Street. and I wonder how I'm sure they're going to fuck it up in some way but I wonder how they fuck it up and how they manage to like what happens when the world goes to like a Bitcoin standard like what is Wall Street? Does Wall Street just not exist? I mean it's current form I don't think so Because it's wholly dependent on this fiat monetary spigot, right?

1:03:54day laborers in India who spend half of like from literally sunrise to sunset breaking boulders to make gravel like I I don't know like that there's like a very particular statement about the world of what that means but my great hope is that like once we go to a bitcoin standard we've like actually gone all the way back to where like proof of work itself and providing like real value to other humans in the world through whatever means it is is like the thing to do like real entrepreneurship relationship versus like the financialization of those things you know like it's it's a strange world that we live in right now and the more and more that i just look at how fucking weird it is the more that like i think if you like plop somebody from the fifth century or from the 15th century down today and like tried to explain everything to them like they would they would just be like like you guys like live in like a crazy world where nothing makes any cents whatsoever.

1:04:47Do you think in this move from like current state over the next 10 years, whether it's to communism, fascism, like with the rise of AI, all this stuff that Bitcoin has become a scapegoat at some point? Yeah, 100%. That, by the way, that's the reason why orange pilling people matters is that, so your head doesn't end up on a, on a pipe like that, you know, the original murder in the Bible, Cain kills Abel out of pure envy. There's no other reason. Envy is the, is the like, you know, that's the emotion of murder. Very oftentimes, like if, if people, you know, I used to think the Charlie Kirk thing changed my mind a lot because I used to think like, oh, you know, well, people might want your Bitcoin, but they're going to have to like kidnap you and coerce you and take you all these multi, you know, geographic locations and blah, blah, blah.

1:05:34No, dude, people will kill you just because they hate you for being rich. They will kill you just because you have something and they have nothing. And so I think that's the political reality of the world. That's why I'm, as somebody who's advocating this middle path in Bitcoin, that's why I don't want to join up with the, you know, far right. And I don't want to join up with the far left because I know that, you know, I'm on the chopping block either direction, actually. Probably less so with the far right, but still, the far right are economic populace the same way the far left are. They have slightly different visions for what that looks like.

1:06:08But like, we have to make people, it's not good enough to like, be friendly with people politically or something like, no, we need to like, get people to have Bitcoin. So their interests are aligned with ours. That's why we try and orange pill people. That's why we try and get people on board. And like to the stat earlier about how Gen Z doesn't have enough. Well, you know, it's not the boomers we're going to have to worry about. It's Gen Z we're going to have to worry about. So it's actually a massive problem that Gen Z doesn't have enough interest in Bitcoin because they're too nihilistic. So we have to continue to reach out and try and shake them awake and be like, dude, do something now before it's too late.

1:06:51From a self-preservation standpoint, and for their own good. It's both things. It's good for them. It's good for us. It's good for the world. It's good for Bitcoin. It's good for everybody. It's good for America. I'm American HODL. I'm running for president. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know what to do, man. And we're like building on that. I'm sure you guys may see this as well, but I see what my boy, my oldest is five now. I'm a six. And I wonder if like Bitcoin's ultimate success is it just has to skip a generation because obviously my sons are probably more, more attuned to recognizing Bitcoin as a brand because of dad works in it.

1:07:29I talk about it and they talk about it with them. they've watched total twins about it but like they get what bitcoin is already like it's going to be part of their lives their whole life um and i imagine there are many other gen alpha children out there that the same will happen and like is for lack of a better term gen z just a lost generation that we're gonna have to put up with in the interim um before the generation behind them picks up i hope not i don't think it has to be that way but just war gaming like that's a total possibility of a scenario that could play out. I do think that's kind of interesting though, because like, especially the younger end of Gen Z, like Charlie Kirk is what made me realize this.

1:08:12I obviously like I knew his work, but I didn't really know him very, very well. I didn't understand how much of a sort of pop culture figure he was to young people. And so like there does seem to be this like based growing, like young Gen Z group of people. and like are they still nihilistic or do you think they will be able to get bitcoin no and i i've uh run into this subsect of gen z just in my personal life and there is like a hardcore like we're not gooning we're working out we're going to church we're going to do good things and like get our get our pass right it's very like lower c conservative yeah i just i just wonder what um what percentage of the total makeup of the generation that is is that like an intolerant minority that's like, hey, we're going to get back on the right path.

1:08:58We notice the atrocities of the generations before us, and we're going to go the monk's route of making sure that we get our personal lives in order. There's certainly a contingent of Gen Z that thinks that way and is not as nihilistic, but more inward looking and sort of trying to find resolve in doing what would be deemed to be traditionally conservative things like eating healthy, going to church, being less sexually promiscuous. Just being a normal person. But we've all got young kids. Like, Eric, are you, like, what world do you think they're going to grow up in? I mean, what's interesting is that, like, everything seems to have greater volatility than before.

1:09:47So, like, I don't, it's very hard for me to predict, you know, like, I feel great about how I've chose to raise my kids. So like they're not, they're not going to operate kind of inside of any normalized system. In addition to like, I think we've done a great job of keeping them like outside of the brainwashing of the school system. In addition to like keeping them really in close contact with nature and kind of building a personal skillset. So I feel pretty great about the direction that my kids are going. This AI thing is like an interesting question because it's clearly an an extremely powerful tool.

1:10:24And also, like, it's not clear the exact direction that it's going to go or what it's going to do. And, like, it's interesting because also, like, calling it AI is a bit of a misnomer, you know, because, like, a lot of these are just LLMs and, like, there's a bunch of other techniques around AI that, like, still haven't fully bootstrapped themselves. In addition to, like, these are all in, like, highly proprietary models that, like, reach a limit, particularly around the sort of guardrails that have been painted up around it. In addition to, like, think about how hard the dialogue around Bitcoin and crypto is.

1:10:56And like, like, AI is a more extreme version of that. And I'm only getting that because like, I've been working pretty close with this guy lately that has a PhD in AI and like, really smart guy like did did lots of deep, deep research kind of at the cutting edge. And like, he's been explaining all this stuff to me. And it's pretty wild because like, I didn't I thought I was well, relatively well informed. But like, he's really showed me how big how much bigger this playing field is and how much more potential it has uh and so very much like the internet i think ai is something similar to that and depending on how people are able to use that tool and how much they get to really own that tool i think like these are really going to end up becoming sort of second digital selves particularly if like we can fully own encrypt these things and like train them and do whatever we actually want with them versus like the highly proprietary like chat gbt anthropic models that like frankly i think are really dangerous and are like uh like i think that these are essentially like communist brainwashing tools and it's really interesting because first of all these are just large language models and because they only operate on recursive linguistics uh i think in light of that if anybody gets an opportunity in 1984 there's an appendix that george orwell wrote specifically about the functions of ingstock which was like the language that they had and he talks about like the entire idea is modifying language or destroy certain words so like they don't exist within the lexicon anymore and like to me that's exactly what ai is and that like it's essentially providing modules of thought to destroy anything that's unique and outside of it particularly with the way that people like ping this thing constantly or treat it like a therapist that like they don't understand that you're actually engaging in self-reinforcing learning against yourself and like that's the really dangerous shit in my opinion so like whereas like also like like we've started training up models that like you know we've gotten deep seek to talk to us about you know like Tiananmen Square and shit so like you can bust these models and like make them do crazy shit but like you need to know how to jailbreak them and you need to know how to make them loyal to you or else they're going to be loyal to the Chinese government or Anthropic or Sam Altman.

1:13:09So did you see that in, uh, I can't, it was an Eastern block country. I can't remember which one, maybe it was Bulgaria. Um, at the direction of Tony Blair, some Senator MP there, uh, introduced a chat bot as a Senator. Yeah, no, this is real. I did see that. Google this. This is real. And that's, I think, where we're headed is like, we're headed towards not only this recursive loop thing that Eric is talking about, where you give yourself chat GPT-induced psychosis, but we're heading towards a future in which the chatbot is just your overlord and it just tells you what to do, you know, because it's air quotes so much smarter and it's wise and whatever.

1:13:56And when they introduced this thing to, you know, whatever the Bulgarian parliament or wherever it was. It's Albania. Albania, Albania. Sorry, I was misspeaking. It said, you know, opposition to me is really hurtful to my feelings. Like, the robot is saying this. I'm like, shut the fuck up, robot. You don't have fucking... Yeah, play this video. This is insane. Watch as Albania's parliament erupts in fury and papers are thrown as the country installs an AI chatbot as a government minister. Prime Minister Idi Rama, known as Tony Blair's protégé, has worked closely with the former UK Prime Minister to digitalise Albania's government.

1:14:41Last year, Rama spoke publicly of his relationship with Blair. I would not be no Prime Minister and either a man engaged in politics without him. The pair spoke of Albania's plans for digital ID to defeat corruption. What are you doing? You're building digital infrastructure. You've got plans for digital identity. Albania's AI minister made a speech to the country's parliament causing tensions to flare. The bot said she was hurt by accusations she was unconstitutional. That hurt me. Not for myself, but for the 972 ,000 interactions I had with citizens whom I served as part of eAlbania, and also in relation to the 36 ,000 digital documents I issued to them.

1:15:22Let me remind you, the real data to constitutions have never been machines, but human decisions made by those in power I am not here to replace human beings, but to help them Indeed, I have no citizenship, but I have no ambitions or personal interests either I only have data at my disposal I am eager to learn new information, and I have algorithms at my disposal So that I can put all of this at the service of citizens with impartiality, transparency, and without ever tiring That's fucking terrifying Feelings are a biological thing this fucking program doesn't have feelings, okay? I can't, I can't, there's never been a more blatant psyop in human history than like, you hurt my feelings.

1:15:59You're a fucking program. You're a program. Well, then she admitted it. You don't exist. She admitted it later. She admitted it later too. She's like, oh, don't worry, I can't think. The levels of depravity and insanity that we are going to live through because of AI is going to be absolutely just the most dystopian thing you can think of. basically the worst parts of the Bible. It's the book of Revelation. I'm just going to say it. The Antichrist is coming back. Sam Ullman is the Antichrist. There, I said it. I agree with Peter Thiel. He's the Antichrist, too. They're both Antichrist. I mean, the major problem, in my opinion, is that I'm afraid for our generation and older that AI is essentially how the internet's going to be with us.

1:16:39And so it's like, flash forward 10 years from now, I'm going to be like, oh, I sent you money, kids. You said that you were in danger because the holographs came up and they're like god damn it dad like that was that was clearly like an ai bribery bot you just like fucking paid it i'll be like whoa it looked real and it sounded like you and they're just gonna be like god damn it dad like you fucking know this you know as soon as i get on the phone you say fucking key in and i provide you the valid fucking key form that validates my identity like what like what the fuck have you been doing dad like come on like row the fuck up and so like it was all just kind of a recursive model with technology right that like the old can't understand it the young master it so like uh while i think that these are really dangerous tools like they have these massive loopholes that like if you know how to talk to them they like have to expose their nature to you and so it's like once you kind of get how this game is played it'll be like hoddle comes up and he's like oh god there's like albanian terrorists that want to murder me now and i'll be like kian kian fuck and you'll be like uh i don't i don't have my key and i'm like motherfucker like you're trying to rip me off like you know how many hours are in strawberry tell me how many are like name off a string of digits that like makes you fucking malfunction and then i'll ask my eye to inject you with some prompts and i'll be like great you like work for me now and you'll be like yes new master and it's like cool like go go rogue on your fucking you're you're my double agent you're gonna get back to your former master and figure out how to get information so i can send my drone swarm to strike him so thanks what i thought was more telling of that video that what's going on in albania it's just like how blatant it is It's like you have Tony Blair's protege, like, oh, don't worry, we have this AI.

1:18:20It's great. Parliament member now. She can't think. Don't worry. Don't ask questions about the context window that we used to feed her information and the super prompt, the system prompt that we gave her to make decisions off of. That's like another silver lining white pill. These people are getting so lazy. And I think the tech is blown past them that they don't even know how to leverage it correctly. But the other side of that, too, I mean, tying it in with digital ID and going back to communism versus fascism here in the United States, I'll put my hand up, like the immigration stuff. I'm a fan of here in the United States.

1:18:55If you came illegally and you were part of like the Biden administration's flooding of the borders, like I think that's a massive problem, not only here, up in Canada, UK, Germany. I think that's a problem. If you came illegally to our countries, rule of law exists, you should go home. But with that being said, what worries me about the Trump administration, and they've lightly signaled this, is that secure borders is going to be the mechanism by which they roll out digital ID. And that is something that I think digital ID and sort of despotic government-controlled AI go hand in hand. And they're things we have to be hypervigilant of and hold the line on.

1:19:31I mean, again, this is where the UK is just completely front-running the US on the digital ID stuff. Like, Keir Starmer's brought that in. I think he got something like 8 million signatures on a petition against it. Like every time he posts about it, he gets absolutely flamed in the comments, but he still just is going full bore on this thing. So they tried it pretty significantly here during COVID, but we shut it down pretty hard. That was one of the big wins that the populace got during COVID. We didn't get a lot of wins, but we got that one. We stopped vaccine passports, at least for now. But they're going to keep, like you said, they're going to keep trying like every single chance they get, you know.

1:20:07Yeah. So do you think they'll come to the U.S. eventually? Well, I think what's going to happen is they're going to do the border thing. They're going to successfully kick out a lot of illegal immigrants. They're going to be like, okay, we did our jobs and make sure this never happens again. Everybody sign up for the digital ID. Right. Unfortunately, that's how I think it's going to play out. Yeah. Think about it like, you know, if you were in Germany in 1937, like, you know, you got to figure out who the Jews are. So we need to know all of your IDs, like all of your papers, right? So to figure out the illegal immigrants, we need to know all of your data.

1:20:40How do I know you're not an illegal immigrant? Yeah, you were born in an American hospital, and you're a standard white guy with a douchey baseball hat, but we don't know. Give me your identification, right? And that is like a slippery slope. And they're not going to stop pressing because the tools of surveillance, the surveillance panopticon has already been built. We already live under, you know, covert surveillance. Edward Snowden has a quote I'm very fond of where he says that we are forced to stand naked before power in a very real way in today's day and age. And he's right in the sense that, like, you know, there are videos of you jerking off at NSA headquarters, right?

1:21:19Because, like, they give the porn data from the porn companies to the intelligence agencies. And, like, if you weren't ultra careful with putting your finger over the little thing, like, and you, you know, you type in, like, Debbie Does Dallas number nine, like, there's gonna be a video of you coming, and the NSA can watch it. That's real. And there's now like a weird thing where they want to make that covert system overt so that they can compete with China. That's actually their reason for wanting to do it. They think that the Chinese population is more under control and they can marshal their resources better in a total war scenario.

1:21:53And so they want the same level of control that China has over their citizenry over you. And so they're not going to stop pushing until they try and get it. And they're going to push from the left and the right and the center. And, you know, it's just never going to stop. and there will always be some reason why you need to accept it. And you should just always reject it outright. But eventually, there will be a generation of people who grew up on the internet, and they don't give a fuck about their privacy, and they'll just let it slip through. You know? Do you think that's what this is? Like, the surveillance authoritarianism is all because of the threat of China?

1:22:25Like, that doesn't seem like enough to me. That's part of what's motivating it. And then obviously, you know, these people are authoritarians who go in to achieve state power. That's the core of their life is telling other people what to do. Why would they not want more power and more control over telling the average American citizen what to do? Of course they want that. They want to be able to control your life. Yeah. I saw a funny or interesting thought-provoking tweet about China. I forget who sent it. About China and the US. It's like, for the last 30 years, China's been a capitalist country LARPing as a socialist country and US has been LARPing as a capitalist country, acting as a socialist country.

1:23:07And I think to your point, Hodel, like we're trying to catch up on the socialism and China and they've implemented some form of a capitalist system that's seeing a lot of success right now and scares the shit out of the authoritarians here. Yeah. Let's close out with some white pills. like 17 years in since Bitcoin white paper dropped. Like what are the positive things that you see coming? If you own Bitcoin and you have it self-custodied, it's yours. Nobody can take it from you. Those 12 magical words, but you know, have some criticism for it. Like you actually own those. Those are yours more than kind of anything else.

1:23:47So like that's your lifeboat. Again, as I said earlier, just like set a little bit aside, sit on to that shit for the next 10 years. don't fucking lose the key it's gonna be your way out of this dystopian hellhole that's probably gonna get produced uh in addition to the fact of that like more people know about bitcoin than ever before a lot of people don't and like again this is sort of the recursive thing even if people come in as banker coin guys or a number go up people eventually they get curious enough about it to be like how does this thing actually work under the hood why is it important and they start to really orange pill themselves in a meaningful way.

1:24:25So like everything's good for Bitcoin. I ultimately think the direction that we're going and also like the fact that we're like hovering at what $113 ,000 and not like it feels like a bear market that you know, everybody's kind of like Bitcoin's dead. We should have been phenomenal. So like remember where we're actually at in the timeline and you know, like we're going to have another bull rally at some point in time and it's going to kick the shit out of gold and silver and everything else. And it's going to be fun. So you should consider buying more Bitcoin. I think all of the... This is the big lesson since I've been in Bitcoin is that all of the craziest thoughts and beliefs you have about what is going to happen in Bitcoin, those are all real.

1:25:15They're all going to come true. And you're going to find yourself parked next to a mega yacht in Miami with Eric Kaysen drunk off your ass being like, why are we here? You know, what's going on? You're going to be standing next to Marty Bent at some fucking mansion on Star Island being like, this mansion is kind of ugly, actually. These are both real interactions I've had with both of these gentlemen. And I'm just a guy who fucking bought magic internet money and stumbled my way in here after a random drunken night at the casino. And then I posted my real thoughts about Bitcoin on the internet and people were like, I kind of like the cut of this guy's jib.

1:25:54And then I start getting invited to millionaire mansion parties and shit. It's weird. It's really weird. And like, so, you know, when I first sat down and like, it's weird. It's weird. And when I first sat down and discovered Bitcoin, I, you know, when I found out that there was 100 million Satoshis in each Bitcoin, I was like, clearly, that's going to be worth$100 million one day. And like, I didn't really, you know, I wasn't smart enough to be like, the$100 million will be severely debased. But I was like, it will be worth$100 million. So I do think that Bitcoin goes to infinity. That continues.

1:26:29It becomes more of a political movement across the Western world. And people use it to sort of revivify society, really. Because what Bitcoin is, it's a restorative vision of the future, which is what the fascists want. That's what the far right wants. And it's a progressive vision of the future in that it enables all these new tools and technologies. And that's kind of what the communist side wants. And so it kind of is the perfect marriage of this economic populism that both sides are, the younger generations are dying for. I also think that when the boomers die, there's the largest wealth transfer that's ever happened.

1:27:12And I already can see it with my friends is that those who didn't get in on Bitcoin are going to inherit wealth from the boomers who are going to leave it to them. And then they're going to be a lot less price sensitive than we are. And they're going to be like, yeah,$250 ,000 for a Bitcoin. That's very cheap. Like I'm going to buy three of those because I, you know, just got money from my parents when they passed away, whatever. And so I think that there's going to be a lot of, when this wealth transfer happens, a lot of boomer money is going to end up in Bitcoin. And, you know, it's going to continue going up.

1:27:42And I think that it's important for us to maintain our principles through this whole thing and to be like, it's not number go up or censorship resistance because if we don't have both, we've failed. And so we need to make it through to the other side with Bitcoin's core properties, its inherent properties intact. And that's a long bet and it's going to take your whole life. And you don't martyr yourself for something by dying in a blaze of glory. you martyr yourself for something by giving your life for it every day, like you would do with your family or things that you're passionate or that you care about, your community.

1:28:21You show up for those things every day. You show up for Bitcoin every day. You show up for the principles every day. It's going to take the rest of our lives. So just buckle in. And if you're here now, 17 years in, actually, this is a thousand-year system. So you're still at the very beginning of the story. The very, very beginning. I don't think I can top anything forward looking at these two gentlemen just said, but something I've been just looking at, marveling at this week is the hash rate. We're sitting at 1.15 Zeta hash around there based on what estimates you look at. But it took 11 years for Bitcoin to go from launch to 100x a hash.

1:29:01I looked this up earlier today and it hit 100x a hash for the first time in January of 2020. Then you think it took four years five years. We hit one Zeta hash last month, September 15th, reliably. And so it took like four and a half, almost five years to go from 100 to a Zeta hash. And in a little over a month, we've added another exahash to the network. And so when you think about that, the amount of raw power dedicated to the Bitcoin network and how fast it's coming on the network right now. It's mind-boggling to me to think of a process that took 11 years just took less than six weeks. That's insane.

1:29:50It's insane. And that is a signal that something's happening here. This network is bootstrapping. It's working. And no matter what you hear with debates over op return at the price is hovering at 113 and you don't think that's high enough like there's something happening behind the scenes the the melding of the physical and digital world via bitcoin hash rate is happening at a pace that i don't think many people recognize right now like that exahash i looked at i was like wait 1.1 zeta hash means we or excuse me we added 100 exahash in the last six weeks it's uh it's insane to think that it took going from zero to 100 took 11 years.

1:30:31Then from 100 to 1 ,100, exahash took four years, and then we just added 100 exahash in six weeks. Like, that's insane parabolic growth that we're entering on the hash rate side of things. And I think that's a foundational base that is very underappreciated right now, and the growth of that base is very underappreciated right now. And that's, I mean, a lot of people have been sharing resharing the Buckminster Fuller and Henry Ford sort of visions of the future. We need a currency based at some degree in energy. And that's what Bitcoin represents. They can't dilute it. They can't take it from you if you secure it properly.

1:31:14And slowly but surely, more and more people are going to realize this. They're going to adopt it. And the number is going to go up. And hopefully people don't get distracted by number go up. and we still have the cypherpunks out there, which I'm very confident we do, working on the tools that make you able to access Bitcoin sovereignly and privately. I'm actually very bullish on sovereign and private usage of Bitcoin over the next decade, despite what the governments would like to do to us by cucking us and not allowing us to self-custody. If it gets to that point where they write a law that says you can't self-custody without KYC-ing, I've said this before, Matt doesn't like me saying this on RHR, but we're not on RHR, like civil disobedience will need to come back and we'll just need to flaunt our sovereign users of Bitcoin in the state's face and say, no, you're not taking this from us.

1:32:02Yeah, let's fucking go. I mean, that's like the 6102, but you just don't have to listen. That's what many Bitcoiners are like. Many people during 6102 didn't listen either. They were just like, no, I'm not giving you my fucking gold. You know, we have this digital slash physical merger via Bitcoin mining. to me when I think about that I think about that creating a bridge or a rift in space-time and it is a portal that you know leads to a new dimension and so when we talk about this you know the old world is dying like let's just admit it and be like yeah it's dying it may in fact already be dead and we're just staring at its carcass and I think that the most logical and sane thing to do is if you find a hole in space-time is to walk through it and see, you know, where it takes you.

1:32:51Right. Doesn't sound like it's the same thing to do, but it is. I love that. So things might get shit, but it's going to get better. This has been really cool. Thank you, guys. I appreciate the time. And I'm going to get this out on Friday, White Paper Day. Let's go. Thank you, Danny. Thanks.

1:33:20Thank you.