#22 - Wes Carter - Closing the Loop on Packaging Pollution

27:08And we do need to be able to protect things like, you know, food and drugs to, you know, to keep people healthy. And so, you know, I do believe that it is imperative that we begin to move in this direction, understanding that there will be course corrections all the time. There have to be, you know, like to say perfect is the enemy of good. Right. And I have to say that came up for me when you mentioned the GMO thing, for example, because I'm very torn on that particular topic because there's actually a lot of evidence that we just will need GMO, certain GMO species. In fact, GMOs, there's certain species of, I think, was it rice or something that couldn't grow in an area and now can and has prevented rainforest from being cut down.

27:58So even that has like, again, sort of trade-offs and so on that need to be factored in. Well, of course, I guess the main point I was trying to make is, you know, if you transitioned all of global plastics from natural gas to corn, the amount of landmass that would take would be radical, you know? And I, so that's just a nuanced piece that I think we have to acknowledge that, Hey, that might not be the right direction to go. Right. What role could something like glass and, uh, well, I say aluminum, but I imagine you say aluminum, right? Aluminum. I was saying it differently. Um, what role do they play?

28:35Because in, in researching this, it mentioned, um, that those are actually already an example of almost a closed loop form of packaging because they're so durable and you can in theory, keep using them again and again and again. Is that correct? Yes. I love glass and I love aluminum, you know, and we really need more robust incentives for waste haulers, especially with glass, you know, glass is really recyclable. I mean, it's made of sand, you know, like it's, I mean, I love, and who doesn't like to drink out of a glass bottle? Like it's so nice. It's one of my favorites. Um, but you know, a lot of waste haulers and recyclers won't take glass because it's heavy and it shatters and you got different colors and it's hard to sort.

29:21Um, but it's just a good example of like, that's a product that has worked for, you know, I don't know, thousands of years? How long has glass been around? I mean, glass has proven to be a really solid product. And that's an area that I think we should have a much better focus on. How do we create better circularity with glass? Because glass is also often reusable. Aluminum, I really like as well. One of the great things about aluminum is it is infinitely recyclable. And you can't say that about a lot of things. Like you can't say that about paper. You know, as you recycle paper, the strands in the polymer chains get broken down more and more and more.

29:57And so over time, you deteriorate the quality of the paper. Most studies show that you can recycle paper about six or seven times before there's just no guts left. But with aluminum, it's infinitely recyclable. I have heard, and I cannot verify this, but I have heard that there is enough aluminum on the planet right now that has been already mined, that's in circulation, that if we had perfect aluminum circularity, we'd never have to mine another ounce. You know, so that's the kind of material that, you know, dang, we really should be focused on how do we make sure that we are collecting all the aluminum in the world and have really robust recycling infrastructure for aluminum because it's infinitely recyclable.

30:40And man, if we could get out of mining it, wouldn't that be amazing? So, yes, those are those are the kind of discussions that we're having all the time. Again, another reason I'm not so crazy about a lot of single-use plastic because, you know, it's just not, it's very difficult to recycle that stuff. You know, single-use plastic is really hard to recycle. There's no money in it, so there's not a lot of incentive to recycle it. And to me, that's just an area where innovating materials that aren't plastic in those applications just makes really good sense. so i'd love to dig into more this this topic of incentives because you know as you mentioned we have glass and right here here where i am in austin they've got some decent recycling in terms of cardboard and i mean again i say decent i know that they take cardboard and plastic but they don't take glass here which is crazy to me because it's like as you say this wonderful object that like it feels precious and valuable to me when i throw a glass bottle away i'm like i feel this urged them on to keep it because I'm like this is just useful so you you you hinted that the reason why paper is being recycled so well is because the companies themselves that produce and use paper are also the ones that own the recycling plants so why aren't the glass producing companies owning the glass recycling plants here like in Texas for example so that we can actually get that closed loop economy going?

32:10Well, you know, first of all, here in Austin, you know, your recycling is run by a company called Balcones that I actually know pretty well, and they do really good work. I mean, you guys have one of the more sophisticated recycling situations anywhere in the country. So that that's actually a big, a big check for Austin. But you know, the paper industry is just massive, you know, so the economic incentives and the infrastructure around creating paper is robust and mature. You know, I, to speak to why glass companies aren't as focused on circularity, I think that's probably above my pay grade.

32:48You'd have to talk to them, but my sense is the volume of glass doesn't come anywhere close to creating the incentives that they would need to do that. You know, and the reality is if you look at your recycling bin, my guess is 80 % of what's going in there is paper you know so like it's the anchor you know it's the thing that so many products and corrugated boxes being the primary shipper for goods it will probably until somebody invents something more sustainable than a corrugated box is that like a normal cardboard box yep just like the one sitting right over there the plastic thing you receive from amazon basically yeah again it's corrugated because it's got like a couple of layers with some inside that's correct yeah you know we don't have a lot of fancy words in packaging i guess I'm corrugated.

33:33We try to sound smart. I just want to check that I've got the right thing in mind. Yes, you absolutely do. But yes, to the layperson, cardboard. But yeah, just a brown cardboard box. That is the, you know, identified and accepted shipping device for products all over the world. And there is tremendous infrastructure to make that product globally. And a lot of cardboard has recycled content in it, you know, a lot. And there's a lot of boxes out there today that are 100 % recycled board. And so again, we have an infrastructure and an economic incentive to deal with that product already. It's robust.

34:13And so to me, it's just like, if we want to solve the plastic pollution crisis, pivoting to paper is a really obvious thing to do, at least in the short term, because we don't have to create a whole lot of infrastructure. Like, you know, yes, are there ways that we could create infrastructure for recycling single-use plastic much better? There are. You're talking about billions of dollars. Billions of dollars. To me, it's just going to take too long. Not that we shouldn't continue to try to do some of that. We should because there are certain applications where plastic is going to be preferable for a lot of reasons, especially in direct food contact.

34:49And we're going to need ways to deal with those products. But if we can migrate a lot of materials to fiber-based products like paper, we just have the built-in infrastructure. So it's just, it makes the migration so much easier. Have you noticed any change? Because again, with incentives, you've got different ways of creating them. You can do the top-down regulatory incentives. And to an extent, even like the big, if there are big companies themselves choosing to change their own structure, like what you guys are doing, right? You're almost like creating an incentive on yourselves through just like wanting to pivot direction, pivot your direction into more sustainability.

35:28But then you've also got the bottom-up incentives that will be coming from political pressure of people, consumer behavior wanting to change, preferring different products. It feels like the topic of microplastics is finally sort of getting traction in the public's mind. I mean, certainly in all of my friend circles, because people are starting to wonder if this stuff is getting into my bloodstream. It's in women's placentas. It's everywhere. So that's, I guess, is something that's coming from, again, that's aligning this awareness of people's own self-interest for their own health. It's getting people aware of reducing plastic and starting to think about, OK, what we really do need other alternatives.

36:14So have you personally noticed any shift from in the markets themselves from people wanting alternatives? Or is it really going to need to come from a sort of top down approach? It's going to need to come from an all of the above approach. I say this a lot. The thing that will drive the sustainable revolution, this big shift more than any other single thing is consumer demand. You know, the supply chain, consumer products companies and retail brands will respond to consumer demand more than any other single thing. And there's some really good news there, because in all the recent surveys, people under the age of 40 are saying that they value sustainability more than brand over like it's a crazy number.

37:04It's like 85 % of people under 40 in the United States say that sustainability is a major factor in their buying decisions. Well, when you look at that demographic of consumers who all value this one thing, the consumer products companies and retail brands respond to that. And that group of people is just getting older. And the younger people coming behind them, I mean, I don't meet anybody under the age of 25 that's not an environmentalist. You know, whether whether they're Republicans or Democrats or independents, they all care a lot about the earth and in the environment and being better stewards of it.

37:45You know, they've grown up in this crisis, you know. And so that alone is going to be the far and away the biggest driver. You know, and to me, that's a really powerful thing. Ultimately, the power is in the people's hands. You know, I also think that one of the things that doesn't always get acknowledged is the role of social media in this whole awakening. I mean, the reality is one of the reasons everyone's talking about microplastics is because it's so much more visible than it's ever been. You know, like the impact of plastics on marine life. I mean, you can see example after example after example of it on your phone and on podcasts like podcasts like this.

38:24People are talking about these issues and the access to the visuals and to the information is greater than it's ever been. And that awareness is driving consumer demand for more sustainable materials. And I don't think that can be understated. That's why I tell people, like, if you're passionate about these things, use your platform, use your media platform to talk about these things because the supply chain is listening. You know, so there is that dynamic that I think is super significant. But the other piece is we do need the support of governments, as an example. Um, the most, um, the most promising legislation out there, um, is, is something called EPR, which extent, which stands for extended producer responsibility.

39:11EPR has been around for a very long time, especially in Europe, Canada, Australia, but it's even been around in this country for a long time for things like paint and carpet. Like as an example, you just can't throw paint in your garbage can. You know, like there are rules about how you dispose of paint, as an example, because batteries are batteries. There's EPR around batteries, around carpet because of the size of mattresses. All you know, a lot of these products, there are EPR laws that govern the disposal of a lot of these products. But in this country, we've never had a lot of EPR packaging laws.

39:47And that's changing. the largest EPR law in the history of the United States and one of the largest in the history of the world passed in California last year and it's called Senate Bill 54 SB 54 and I'm actually on the advisory board for Cal Recycle for that that law right now the law has passed but it doesn't go into effect until next year so right now we're sort of working through the negotiations on how the law will actually function. But in real simple terms, basically EPR says we are going to attach fees to the most problematic types of packaging, the ones that end up in the environment, the ones that are hard to recycle, because interestingly enough, most of those are also the cheapest.

40:33You know, like it's sort of an interesting dynamic where one of the reasons that single-use plastic is so prolific was really twofold. First of all, single-use plastic and plastic in general is so adaptable. It's so adaptable to so many different applications, but it's also cheap. It's really cheap. And so the EPR structure saying, all right, we're going to put fees on top of that stuff to make the alternatives more competitive. So it encourages all the retail brands and the consumer products companies that are speccing all this packaging on their products to consider alternatives because all of a sudden the cost differential isn't as significant.

41:10And then if companies choose to continue to utilize some of these more problematic types of packaging, all of those fees that are collected go directly into investing in recycling infrastructure, composting infrastructure, access to recycling in communities that traditionally have not, marginalized communities that haven't had access to these things. And so, you know, to me, there's a lot of people in our industry that are very, as you can imagine, hesitant about EPR. You know, everybody's like, nobody wants our industry to be regulated. But to me, I see EPR done well, or what I call intelligent EPR, with the influence of the packaging industry as a really important lever to really catalyze this shift.

41:53You know, and we've already seen it working. We've got some major e-com retailers that we do business with that made decisions last year to migrate all of their plastic packaging, things like bubble wrap and foam and inflatable air pillows. They made the decision to get rid of all of those products and utilize only paper and fiber-based packaging, and in part because they want to show their customers that they are committed to environmental ethics, you know, and they understand that today our packaging is a brand attribute, and we're an environmentally ethical company, and our packaging shows that to consumers.

42:30So that was a big driver. But the other piece is, you know, they understand that, you know, California is the fourth largest economy in the world. And as that as that really comes online, let's go ahead and make these changes now and avoid a lot of these fees. So just the threat of EPR is having an impact on the supply chain. So my hope is that we'll have more states adopt EPR and that we have a harmonization of that legislation across the country. Because the only thing that I'm concerned about is you can't have different fee structures in Texas than you have in California, than you have in New York, than you have in Florida.

43:09So you're going to create a race to the bottom. Right. And it's confusing and it's impossible to manage. We need we need a federally harmonized EPR for the sake of the supply chain. um and i think depending on who ends up in the white house that could potentially happen as always it comes down to this sort of tension between having centralization and decentralization and this sounds like you know i i as someone who's seen a lot of the excesses of terrible centralized regulation during covid or something like that which has just backfired and um a lot of people will argue at least some people will argue hearing this at like well okay but you you're talking from one of the biggest companies in the US, you guys can afford to sort of follow these types of regulations, which are, you know, they are hurting your bottom line a little bit in the beginning, right, as you have to adapt to them.

44:02So what would you say to people who say, oh, well, this is just enabling sort of big companies to, they can jump through these hoops, and this is preventing all the little guys from keeping their businesses going, because it's slapping too expensive regulations upon them? I'm certainly sensitive to that. Fortunately, you know, California is a good example. There are exemptions for a lot of small businesses, you know, where if you're a small business just getting started and there's an annual revenue threshold that basically, you know, you're exempt from these EPR fees. Ultimately, though, I think even smaller companies, and we're seeing it a lot, A lot of companies that are just getting started, they want sustainability to be a part of their brand from the very beginning.

44:49I mean, I bet I have as many startups calling me these days and asking for our help with designing their packaging from the very beginning because they're like, we want our brand to mean sustainability. Because, again, it's not just about cost. It's about our packaging we understand is a brand attribute. And if we're selling healthy products, as an example, to to our customers, we don't want it showing up in packaging that could end up polluting the planet. You know, so there is a drive beyond just the bottom line to make these migrations. And and ultimately what I'm trying to do at Atlantic and what we're trying to do as an organization is make these transitions economically feasible.

45:32I mean, one of the things I say all the time is like, if it's not economically viable, it's not very sustainable because no one's going to buy it. The incentive structures don't work. That's one of the roles I think, you know, our company with 80 years of experience in this industry, we understand the price points. We understand the applications. We understand the customers who buy these products. And so we're working really diligently to match technology with application, to match material with the right customer and the right industry vertical, you know, to make sure that these things see the light of day.

46:07And there is a tremendous amount of R &D and time and innovation that goes into creating these new materials, you know, because you're taking on, you know, materials that have been established for decades. One idea that came up with that, she was talking to my mom about this. She's someone who just is always appalled. She's someone who when she sees a piece of trash on the side of the road, she will stop and pick it up. and she's like, we need a way of attributing an item to people, whether it's to the consumer who has discarded it or it's to the business that created it in the first place. But it does feel like we have a bit of an attribution problem to the extent that it's just this nameless faces piece of trash.

46:59And so we were thinking about it. It's like, what if you could utilize like QR codes or something like that in some way? Now, whether, again, it should be attributed to the individual consumer or more to the company, again, because I feel like this ties in with this idea of EPR, right? It's like, oh, you're the company that created this, that profited off it. Well, your job is to make sure that that ends up in the landfill. So I guess that's the thing. It's like, should the attribution, first of all, lie with the company that created it in the first place? Or should it apply more to the consumer who used it, who then wasn't responsible with disposing of it?

47:33I ultimately think it has to lie with the businesses. You know, I don't think it's fair to ask individual human beings to have total clarity and awareness on all these materials that end up in their lives and how to deal with them. I think that has actually been kind of the way things have worked historically is there's a lot of finger pointing at, you know, just regular human beings. And first of all, if we're going to make this big shift in transition, you're not going to do it at the individual level. It has to be done systematically. It has to be done within the supply chain. And, you know, I'm someone who's pretty environmentally conscious.

48:14But when I go to the grocery store, everything in there is in plastic. So, yes, is there single-use plastic at my house? Absolutely there is. But what choice do I have? And so I don't think it's fair to point fingers at consumers. And I think in the world of litter, yes, we shouldn't litter. I mean, that's kind of number one rule. But again, the idea of litter is we're going to point the fingers at individual human beings as opposed to saying, what if we were giving them products that wouldn't become litter because when they accidentally end up flying out of a truck or a car or a boat, they break down in six or eight weeks.

48:52You know, ultimately, to me, that's the right direction. You've got to give people materials that are easy to deal with, and it has to be a systematic change from within the supply chain. And that is what I am trying to do with our position is say, the packaging supply chain created all these problems. It wasn't intentional. You know, nobody in packaging set out to pollute our oceans, lakes and rivers with plastic pollution. But we that has been the unintended consequence of progress. And we have an inherent responsibility to acknowledge it and commit to fixing the problem. I don't think it's all that much different than automobiles.

49:30I mean, Henry Ford didn't set out to pollute the air when he invented the automobile. But that happened, you know, and so now we're at a point in time where like air pollution kind of sucks. and maybe we should innovate automobiles that don't have all these terrible carbon emissions so we can breathe better. I don't see this as any different. Plastic pollution was an unintended consequence of progress. Yes, it was myopic. Should we have seen it sooner? Probably. But we see it now and we are in a position to innovate our way out of this problem. And to me, a lot of big global, you mentioned Daniel Schmachtenberger, you know, he deals with what he calls the meta crisis.

50:11And you're looking at all of these really significant global issues, most of which I think are really difficult. People like Daniel need to work on that stuff, you know, but the plastic pollution crisis is solvable. It is solvable and it is solvable in our lifetime. You know, it's going to create, it's going to take a lot of innovation. It's going to take a lot of collaboration. It's going to take a lot of coordination and intention in the direction of health. But ultimately, if we heal the supply chain and transition the supply chain, this problem will go away. And to me, that can be an incredibly harmonizing thing for the world.

50:47And I like to think that this could be our generation's moon landing. It could be the thing that people all over the world rally behind. And you'll be able to really see it too. As these transitions happen, it'll be really obvious, you know, and it can be something that creates a sense of global community and something that we can all rally around. And ultimately, I think our world needs that right now. So it's one of the reasons I'm doing a lot of these type of discussions, just to encourage everybody, like, this is something we can do. Packaging is also super tangible. You know, like a lot of these issues, like climate change even, it's hard for regular people in their day-to-day lives to really wrap their head around.

51:28But packaging's not. Right. It's tangible. It's in their hands. It's in their hands. And as we make these transitions, everyone will see it happening and can be a part of it. You know, and that's what a new earth project ultimately was all about is saying, like, this is how we can create a new earth that's more beautiful and we can do it together. So tell us about a new earth project. And because you had, for want of a better word, a spiritual awakening. I did. Right. That inspired you to create it. So can you explain what the project is really all about and what happened to get you there? You know, we mentioned early on that our company was founded by my grandfather in 1946.

52:06I joined the company full time. I mean, I swept floors from the time I was about 13 years old, but I joined full time in 2001. And for the early part of my career, it was just about selling packaging and learning our business. Sustainability wasn't even on my radar at all. and but I'd always been an outdoor person I mean I grew up at Wrightsville Beach North Carolina I've been a lifelong very average surfer and I worked in the outdoor industry when I got out of school I lived out in Utah and sold skis and mountain bikes and you know I've been a lifelong backpacker I'm a fisherman I'm a hunter I've just loved the outdoors my whole life but you know as a professional like that really didn't have a whole lot of impact on my professional life at least initially.

52:49But, you know, about 10 years ago, I started getting really involved in a lot of deep personal work, you know, personal healing work, personal spiritual work. You know, I got involved with the plant medicine community, and that had a really big impact on me and continues to this day. Which plant medicine? I've worked with a lot of different medicines, but my primary medicine is iboga, which is, you know, from... I read about that. Yeah, that's an intense one. It's a beautiful medicine that I believe is really important for the future of humanity. And it's supported my life in countless, countless ways.

53:29But I've done a lot of work, you know, outside of medicine as well in healing. And it's taught me a lot about myself. It's taught me a lot about what it means to be human and be alive and be embodied. But one of the most important lessons I got along the way is that you are nature, not something separate from it. You are integrated with all life. And it also showed me that the most sacred thing on this planet is life itself. Like life is the meaning of life. That's what this is about. And we, and this is Wes's perspective, obviously influenced by medicine, like that is part of our awakening as human beings.

54:11is awakening to the magic that is all around us, you know, and as intelligent beings, understanding that we have a responsibility to steward life, to steward healthy life, get emotional talking about it. And what I saw is I'm a part of an organization that has been operating for a lot of years in high integrity. My grandfather founded our business, has a beautiful story about my grandfather fighting the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan with his newspaper and winning a Pulitzer back in 1952. That was the foundations. And that's a whole nother podcast, probably. My father has been an incredible business person who's done it the right way, built a beautiful family company that was based on ethics and treating people right.

55:00And I saw that we had a seat at the table with the largest consumer products companies in the world and the largest retail brands in the world. And, you know, we had the opportunity to use that influence to begin to talk about the necessity to bring healthy life to the negotiating table, that we could not make decisions in packaging or anything else for that matter, where we weren't acknowledging that stewarding healthy life was critical to everything that we're doing. And so for me, the spiritual awakening was understanding that, like, I'm a part of an organization and leading an organization that has real impact and real influence.

55:43And it didn't mean we had to change our whole business. We just had to pivot a little bit and direct it in this way. And I felt like if we could help support these really large consumer products companies and really large retail brands, make this transition that we could have a big global impact. And that was really the spiritual awakening for me. It was like, you know, this, this journey with health and healing just isn't about you. It's, it's about the reflection that comes from you and how you interrelate with the rest of the rest of the world. Exactly. And so for me, the word sustainability, I thought about it a lot to me, sustainability is just an outer reflection of an inner commitment to health and wellbeing.

56:27And I think if we can begin to acknowledge that in our world, health, wellbeing, all good things flow from that place and the healthier I am, the more inspired I am, the more integrated I am with all life, the more aware I am of my role in the world and how to contribute in a good way. And what would it look like if all of us were doing this deep healing work to really figure out what is my purpose in the ecology of life? How can I contribute to garnering healthier life in this world? I mean, it sounds very win Winnie what you're talking about because I think part of the the current marketing problem with the term sustainability is that it has this kind of self-sacrifice vibe to it.

57:15that it's about, well, you can't go out and pursue your own interests because I need to sort of atone for my sins and in order to be sustainable. But what you're describing is that there's actually a way of what you sort of saw through your inner work was that because actually sustainability is about health and well-being, that is fundamentally aligned with your own interests. Like, yes, you're doing something that's sustainable that helps the rest of the world, but because you are interrelated to the rest of the world and therefore it, its health affects your health, you're, you're helping yourself.

57:52So you, that, that's, I think it's important to like, when we talk about these terms to point out why it's been, you know, selfish, why it benefits the individual. Um, because again, that's about aligning the incentives. I'd love to dig in a little more if you don't mind about like my favorite topic, your iboga experience because i i remember reading a book called i think breaking open the head by daniel pinchbeck uh where he talks about you know i've never i've never done ayahuasca or iboga um and but i'm very curious about them because they sound really intense and especially iboga uh the way it's been described so could you sort of explain a little what the experience was like in terms of like, do you see, did you see something?

58:39Was it scary? Was it blissful? It has never been scary, but it has been challenging. You know, it's pushed me up against my edges. And I do believe Iboga gets a bad rap. The experience is long. It's not excruciating. It's not overwhelming. I've actually had more challenging experiences on other medicines if you want to know the truth but the the thing that gives iboga a little bit of a bad rap i think is just the experience is long you know and so when people hear oh my god you know the the peak experience is probably 10 or 12 hours and then for the next you know 10 or 12 to 20 hours you can still feel the medicine so you can't sleep you cannot sleep you're not sleeping You're in for sort of 24 to 36 hours a week.

59:33But it's not excruciating. Now, you know, when you're – now, one of the things, it is going to – it always goes to the thing that's the most urgent. And typically the thing that's the most urgent for people are twofold. Toxicity. Like if you have toxicity in your body, whether that's due to eating habits or environmental situations or the biggest one is alcohol and drugs, you know, like it's going to – and that's why people are like, oh my god i don't want to throw up well yeah you do actually because that that is one one of the magic things about these medicines is they can pull toxins out of your body that you're not going to get out of your body any other way and so a lot of times for people in their early experiences there is a lot of purging and that happens on ayahuasca as well but people are like why do i have to purge like you're getting the gnarliest stuff in your body out of you and that's one of I love about iboga, I take people now on a pretty regular basis.

1:00:28Um, and everyone after a week, after two ceremonies goes home, feeling amazing. They may be dealing with some emotional stuff that's challenging, but physically, you know, they'll feel amazing because of that, of that purge. The experience itself though, it is visual. Um, now you, you typically have your eyes closed and an eye shade on. And so the, the experience that you're navigating, it's sort of with your eyes closed in sort of a dreamlike state. It's not overwhelmingly visual. Typically, when you open your eyes, the visions go away, which is kind of unique to Iboga. So if you need to take a little bit of a tap out, you can just open your eyes and sit up for a few minutes, which is nice.

1:01:08But a lot of what it does and what it did for me was it took me back through all the circumstances of my life up to that point. And it showed me all these different areas where I'd experienced a difficult thing or a trauma and basically showed me how, especially when I was really young, how some of those things impacted the way I thought mainly about myself. Um, and it helped me, you know, resolve a lot of that stuff, you know, and said, Hey, you know, the reason that you felt insecure as a teenager wasn't because you're just an insecure person. Well, this thing happened to you when you were seven years old and it was pretty bad and you were too young to know how to deal with it.

1:01:46And it created an emotional imprint on you. And that emotional imprint informed the way you thought about yourself as you grew older. I'll never forget that one, because when it showed it to me, and it said in West, none of that was ever true. None of that was ever perception. It was all being informed by this trauma. And to me, that was a huge moment for me. I was like, holy cow, liberation. I'm not insecure. I thought I was insecure my whole life. You know, no one would accuse me of that now. Certainly, but, But that was the real liberating thing is really understanding the impact of these traumatic events in my life and even stuff that maybe I came into this world with.

1:02:25Like one of my experience showed me what my grandfather went through in World War II. And it showed me how like his experience in World War II impacted my mother and then how that impacted me today. You know, and that gave me a great level of appreciation for how horrible violence is for the human soul. Like and really, if politicians understood that when we send people to war, the likelihood is it will impact their grandchildren. How would we how would we think about war? Would we think about it differently if we knew we were going to potentially harm three generations of humans? I think we probably would.

1:03:01And so those are the things that medicine did for me is it gave me perspective on things and perspective on myself that I'm not sure how I would have gotten any other way. And ultimately, through that process of that healing, over time, once I got through a lot of my own personal garbage, you know, and the stuff I needed to work through, then the ability to see what I could do in the world and like how to use my life in service to something greater. those things just became very, very obvious, you know, because I wasn't being clouded by all of these, you know, mental gymnastics, you know, due to events in my life that were creating narratives that weren't true.

1:03:44So that's, that's been a big part of my journey for sure. I imagine some people watching are, especially anyone who's never done any kind of psychedelic or plant medicine, this must be sounding kind of crazy to them because, um, and, and certainly there's a part of me that was until I've had some strange experiences that I couldn't really explain through anything other than like opening my mind to this idea of like, actually, maybe there are these different forms of intelligences that we can access, whether it's our own intelligence we're unlocking through a particular molecule that's comes through a plant or whether it's actually a form of intelligence contained within the plant itself.

1:04:22Because I've heard people talk about when they've done ayahuasca, that it's like, no, you don't understand. It's like this, the vine is smart, and it is able to talk to you and you'll have a conversation with it. So I'm curious, what's your sort of epistemic status on this? Like, do you think like when you're being shown something by a boger, it was information you've already, you've just always had in your head, you just didn't know how to access? Or do you really think you're having a form of dialogue with something almost of a different nature of intelligence. I am 100 % positive I am having an engagement with an intelligence far greater than mine.

1:05:01There's no question in my mind. There is absolutely no question in my mind. So why is that? Well, because the sophistication with which the information comes is just radical. I mean, the things that it has shown me, like if that stuff's all in my head, you know, and not to mention just the results. I mean, like, you know, like it has led me down a path pretty efficiently and it changed my life over three or four years radically. And I today have a life that I love. And when I started, I did not, you know, and yes, did I do a lot of work along the way? Did I have to commit to the path and do a lot of integration outside of these experiences, you damn right.

1:05:46That's a big piece of it. But the proof is in the pudding. I mean, it, you know, it guided me through how to heal. And I'll never forget a big moment when I realized that spiritual and emotional healing was a real thing. And it wasn't just some woo woo thing. And I realized it because I was actually experiencing it. I was actually experiencing what that felt like in my body, in my mind, in my heart. And then I'm like, oh, wow, this is not just something to read about in a book. This is not something that just the great sages and prophets talked about that I'll never be able. This is available to me and it's available to everybody.

1:06:29And when you talk about the intelligence that's all around us, that's something that I also think is becoming far more obvious to modern humans. I mean, we know now scientifically that trees communicate with each other. We know that. We know that trees send signals through the mycelium networks, the mushroom networks underneath the ground to move nutrients around. They know when another tree is sick and they're communicating with the other tree when it's sick. I mean, we know that. We know that whales can communicate with song, a really complex language globally, all over the oceans. How is that possible?

1:07:06All that tells me is there is a level of intelligence and consciousness that exists in a lot of other things besides human beings. And that consciousness may look different than ours, but it doesn't mean that it's not there. You know, like I think we can get confused to believe that intelligence is only defined by what human intelligence is. But I mean, just nature itself is radically intelligent, radically intelligent. I mean, I think Einstein came to that conclusion before he died that, you know, the, the, the obviousness of God to him was, he just said that the universe is way too elegant. It's the, there's the math.

1:07:46We were talking about math earlier is so elegant that like a grand creator is the only thing that makes any sense. And this is Albert Einstein having these reflections, not Wes Carter. Um, but I, you know, I'm not, I don't expect everyone to buy into all of this work necessarily, but I will say that for me, the spiritual awakening piece of this has been fundamental to my understanding of what I should do with my life, you know. And from that perspective, hopefully everybody can endorse that the direction of trying to heal the supply chain, create a healthier planet where we're all better stewards of life is an awakening that we all need to have.

1:08:32Mine was fueled by plant medicine and iboga, but other people's can be fueled by other things. I'm not saying that there aren't other ways. It's just been my path, and I've loved it. Do you think there's, coming back to this topic of closed loop economies, because we often hear about these sort of offsettings that we can do, like carbon credits, or, oh, yes, so you bought some paper here, but you can offset that by paying for new trees to be planted elsewhere. where so almost at a consumer level and so i guess my question is do you think that it's still these these offsetting things are viable solutions or do you think that really long term we have to um it's not sufficiently taking responsibility for our own mess essentially and that there's intrinsic value in that i think it's sort of a both and you know ultimately i don't think offsets are the answer you know i don't think we can say well if i do this good thing over here it means it's okay for me to continue to do this really bad thing, you know, like whether it's packaging or really anything else in life, you know, I don't know that offsetting, you know, really works, you know, in relationships or anywhere else.

1:09:48I'm trying to think of a good, you know, analogy with like, you know, being married. I mean, if you're, if you're really mean to your wife, just because you buy our flowers doesn't necessarily make it all right, you know, so ultimately, we have to change our behavior. And so, but I also think that, you know, offsets, you know, things like carbon credits can be a good bridge. You know, there's certain areas where, you know, right now, there's just not an obvious solution. You know, there's just not an obvious solution. You know, like, you know, you think about airplanes, you know, like you could argue that like, well, if you're environmentally conscious, don't ever get on an airplane because, you know, your your carbon footprint of being on an airplane is so significant.

1:10:26Is that realistic? No, it's not. And so right now, you know, I think companies that fly airplanes like my company does purchasing carbon offsets, you know, really good ethical ones that are, you know, preserving wild places is a pretty good trade off for right now. Now, would it be better if we had biofuels? Yeah. And should we keep working in that direction? Yeah, we should. Or electric planes. Or electric planes. And I think Elon Musk is working on electric planes. I heard him talking about not too long ago. You know, so again, it's a nice bridge, you know. And the other thing I do like about some of the credit markets is one of the areas you don't hear enough, in my opinion, in the world of sustainability and in the world of climate change is saving wild places and conservation.

1:11:16Like ultimately, if we really want to solve this problem, it is about letting nature do nature, you know, preserving these vulnerable ecosystems as the mission of humanity. You know that like the most important thing is we got to conserve and preserve these wild places for future generations. And if we do that, a lot of these other issues will take care of themselves. And because, you know, it's not part of our corporate doctrine, you know, like people in business really look at like conservation sort of as a philanthropy arm. And my position is conservation and stewardship of wild places should be and needs to be an integrated part of your sustainability strategy.

1:12:02It can't just be about we're going to put solar panels on the roof of our our plant. You know, one of the things we're doing at Atlantic, which is what I call voluntary mitigation is and this is just an idea I came up with. You know, if you build a shopping center on top of a wetland, you're required by the federal government to mitigate that. So if you, you know, impact 10 acres of wetlands, you got to go purchase 10 acres of wetland somewhere else and put it and put it into a conservation easement. you know, but it only applies to wetlands. Well, what if it applied to everything? You know what, you know, and so what I did at Atlantic is we're on 60 acres of land, you know, collectively all over the country.

1:12:40It's not one 60 acre plot. We got warehouses everywhere, but I said, all right, so we're taking up 60 acres of land. So I'm going to go out and find 60 acres of vulnerable property, you know, an old growth forest as an example, or a wetland, purchase it, put it in a conservation easement. So it can never be developed for eternity, you know, as a way to offset our impact. You know, I'm not required by law to do that. You know, and yes, there's an expense to doing it. But I think things like that, voluntary type mitigation, companies seeing that we have a corporate responsibility to not only have more sustainable products and materials and reduce our carbon impact, but also to be really focused on how do we save wild places and protect wild places?

1:13:26I think if we can get to that place of that level of corporate environmental ethics, you know, it will be a really good trajectory for our world. Have you had any headbutting come up with your investors with through this pivot? Because fortunately, I don't have any investors. That helps. I'm privately held. Oh, that's right. Of course. Well, right. So yeah, so it is actually you that. Okay. So that's, I can't help but wonder that the reason why so many companies haven't already done this is because the short term fiduciary duty incentives are not, they aren't aligned with a more ethical mission.

1:14:11No question. There's no question about it. I mean, there's no question that as a privately held company, I don't have the burden of quarterly reporting, you know, and that we, and we talk about it a lot. I mean, you know, people used to ask me all the time, would you ever sell your company? You guys are getting pretty large. If I sold my company, I lose a lot of the flexibility that I have today, you know, where, you know, as a privately held company, the passions of ownership and leadership, we can channel into the organization, You know, and that's a pretty amazing thing to be able to do. I wish there were more third and fourth generation privately held companies out there, you know.

1:14:49Right, because they're actually the ones in the unique position to be able to do this easily. It is. And I find that a lot of our partnerships out there on the supplier side and on the customer side, you know, we have a lot of, you know, the privately held companies tend to be able to be a little bit more strategic and a little bit more aggressive in a lot of these things. And so, but I think you need both, you know, there's nothing wrong. I mean, you know, we obviously support a lot of publicly held companies that are doing amazing work too. And they have tremendous financial resources that a lot of the privately held companies don't have.

1:15:16So I think it really is both. And it's about creating those partnerships. But again, you know, we've got to find ways in the future and what I call the new earth that we are valuing companies beyond just profit and loss. You know, like that is a really problematic structure. and I'm a capitalist. I believe that capitalism drives innovation greater than any other system ever devised by humans. And ultimately, innovation is exactly what we need to get us out of all these problems. And so you would never want to do anything that would inhibit innovation. But ultimately, we've got to have systems in place that acknowledge ethics, you know, and that if you're operating unethically, it doesn't matter what type of products you're bringing to market.

1:16:03If you're doing it in an unethical way, like that should strongly devalue your organization. And I do believe there are, you know, more and more that's becoming something that companies are awakening to. Again, we talked about consumer demand earlier. Consumers got a lot more information they've ever had before. You can research a company online and find out anything you want to find out. And so the level of transparency due to the internet and to social media is a good thing in this department because it's holding companies more accountable. And I think that's really important. I think all of us should hold the brands that we shop with accountable.

1:16:45And if you're shopping with a brand and every time the package shows up at your house, it's full of really problematic single-use plastic, write them a letter. Take a picture and post it on social media and tag them and say, can't you guys do better? Or if they don't change, maybe start shopping with somebody else. I mean, I think ultimately consumers have to take control of demanding these changes from the supply chain. But yes, as a privately held company, we certainly have a greater level of flexibility. But I do believe that more and more all organizations in the supply chain are awakening to the fact that environmental ethics are good for business.

1:17:27and I tell customers all the time, if you embrace sustainability as a brand attribute, market it. It should be awesome. The sustainable revolution should be the greatest thing ever that we should all be stoked about. We mentioned the New Earth Project earlier. One of the reasons that I embraced the outdoor industry with the New Earth Project, which is our sustainability initiative, I went to the outdoor industry and said, certainly brands in surfing and snowboarding and mountain biking, those brands will get why sustainability is so important and their customers really care. And so that we want to take that vision and that energy and continue to migrate it across all these verticals.

1:18:10How would you advise? Because the thing is, I agree with all of this, but at the same time. Anytime there's a short term incentive for someone to cut the corner, someone will do it. Of course. And corporate greenwashing is a real thing where companies say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. we're sustainable they'll change the colors of their packaging to like brown paper and all this and give the aesthetic of organic and blah blah blah um but in reality they're just doing the same shit so how would you advise people listening to spot the difference between like a truly sustainable company that's like actually doing their best on this and ones that are just jumping on the bandwagon but are actually just greenwashing yeah it's it's really difficult for you know regular individual human beings to be able to judge a lot of that.

1:18:59You know, I mean, and I wish I had a silver bullet that says, hey, here's how you evaluate whether it's being greenwashed or not. But, you know, unfortunately, in the world of packaging, there really is no governing body that is certifying a lot of this stuff. Now, that is starting to change. And certainly our organization, even though we're not a federal agency, I am really focused on being sure that the products that we bring to market are as vetted and as ethical as they can possibly be. Now, there are certain types of certifications. If you are buying paper, most paper will have a mark on it that tells you whether or not it's coming from a sustainably managed forest.

1:19:41So FSC is one of those certifications. SFI is another one. So that's something people can look for. More and more, there's products that are coming to market that are, you know, compostable. So that's the one that I think is really ripe for greenwashing. There's a big difference in industrial compostable and backyard compostable. Industrial composting requires heat. And if you don't have an industrial composting facility in your community, just because, you know, what worries me in some cases is somebody says, oh, this is industrial compostable. That means I can litter it. You know, I can throw it outside of my car and it'll break down.

1:20:15If it doesn't get 150 degrees of heat, it's not going to break down. So there's areas like that that people have to be conscious of. But like in the United States, there is a composting certification called BPI, you know? And so if you're looking at a product that's advertising, it's compostable double check to see if it has that BPI certification in Europe, it's TUV and a lot of products will have both and that'll become more and more prevalent. And then ultimately, like just be very wary of single use plastic, you know, being marketed as sustainable. You know, if it's single use plastic, you know, really question if there's a sustainability story around it.

1:20:53Now, there may be, but in most cases, especially consumer destined single use plastic, that's a pretty easy one to avoid. And then the other thing I tell people, too, is, you know, lean into paper or fiber based packaging. Stuff that is made from natural fibers, whether that's trees or hemp or grass, or there's a lot of packaging coming out from mushrooms now, like mycelium packaging. Anything that's got an organic feedstock, in the most cases, is preferable, because it means that it will return to its organic state. Provided that the feedstock itself is sustainable, you're not cutting down old growth forest.

1:21:31Is there a way of telling whether the plants or the trees that a fiber is sourced from is coming from a new growth forest century that's being planted for that purpose? Most of the paper that is in this country is going to be coming from more and more from sustainably managed forest. And so FSC is the one that I like the most because it's independent of the paper industry and it's a little more stringent. And, you know, like, and for the paper industry, like, you know, they, they want to cultivate a feedstock well, I mean, you know, it's not in their best interest to go cut down old growth forests, it's in their best interest to treat trees like a farming product, you know, and so that's the way that those things are viewed.

1:22:18And when it's done in a sustainable way, it's very balanced. You got to remember, too, like if the paper companies don't manage their forests well, they don't have a feedstock. So they don't have any incentive to do it really badly. And so more and more, the major paper companies are also understanding that consumers do care about sustainably managed forests. They, you know, they haven't always had the best reputation. and so there's a big shift you know to being sure that the paper that is going to consumers is from a sustainably managed forest and being sure that they tell that story to customers and you mentioned qr codes a lot of paper packaging today and probably that corrugated box sitting over there will have a qr code on it it'll tell you that story so that's stuff you can look for as well oh i didn't even know that all right i'm gonna have a look that's stuff you can look for yeah so like amazon for example they're they're the one not to pick on one particular company but they're the biggest right now.

1:23:12Of course, they're their own vertical. How well integrated are they in terms of where they're sourcing their cardboard from? Amazon has made really great strides. Obviously, like I just said, they're their own vertical. I almost think of Amazon sort of like you got the e-commerce vertical and then you got Amazon, you know, because they're just such a Goliath, you know. And if you've noticed, and I think most people probably have since COVID, a lot more stuff that comes from Amazon is coming in paper packaging. One area that I point to the most is mailers. You know, three or four years ago, most of the mailers that came to your house were that white and blue bubble mailer, plastic mailer.

1:23:50And if you've noticed more and more craft mailers are coming to your house, that craft mailer is it was invented six or seven years ago. It's, it's being manufactured by a partner of ours called Prejus. And the name of that mailer is the EverTech Mailer. It was absolutely innovated and designed for sustainability. 100%. And I give those guys a tremendous amount of credit for really scaling that technology. It's a great example of it's really competitively priced. You can manufacture it at high speed. It's curbside recyclable. If it ends up in the environment, it breaks down. It met the need of the market.

1:24:30And it took a few years, but all of a sudden, tons of major e-commerce retailers have migrated to the Evertech, you know, sustainable mailer, including Amazon in a big way. And it's been a huge, you know, it's been a huge economic boon for Prejus, which is another thing I tell people too, like, if you come up with a great sustainable innovation that people can buy at scale, it's great for your business. I also see this as an incredible accelerant to top line revenue for businesses that do it well. And the Evertech mailer is just a great example of that. And again, it's really tangible for people, you know, and so I heard recently, and like I said, this is secondhand news, but that Amazon was making a very strategic decision to migrate to fiber-based packaging across their entire network, at least in this country.

1:25:18But I would assume that will continue to extend. And again, I think they see it as an opportunity to embrace environmental ethics in the packaging and they understand how visible it is. And the other piece is because of companies like Atlantic and Pregeus and others, we're innovating products that are viable for them. You know, and that's where I really feel like a company like Atlantic's, our role is really important because you can't expect the Amazons of the world to migrate away from a lot of these problematic products if no one's innovating better ones. And so, and that's another area I think governments can really help.

1:25:52I mean, incent companies to innovate in the space, you know, like packaging equipment and materials could be, um, supported in the same way that solar panels are supported or EVs are supported, you know? Uh, and I've talked to a few politicians about that. Any luck? Um, I've got them listening. I haven't gotten it written into law yet, but I have a few people listening. And the interesting thing too, is I've talked to Republicans and Democrats. And the really lovely thing about those conversations is I've had both sides of the aisle say, this is the least partisan issue out there. No one is pro-pollution.

1:26:29There's nobody out there standing on the floor of Congress saying, more plastic in the ocean. Everyone uniformly agrees that plastic in the environment, bad. And there's just discussion on how do we create a path, how we get there. But that's a lot easier than a lot of these issues where it's black, white, up, down, and everybody, you know, philosophically is on totally different sides. Again, like I mentioned earlier about this sort of global harmonization, I think also this can be an issue that starts to bridge some of these, you know, partisan, you know, issues that we have throughout our country.

1:27:06Like maybe this could be the thing. Could we solve the plastic pollution crisis, could we create circularity and have a much more robust waste infrastructure as a harmonizing issue for, you know, people across this country to rally behind? I think it could be. To me, it's kind of the perfect thing. Again, packaging's ubiquitous. It's tangible. It's something everyone can participate in. And I'm hoping that, you know, maybe there's some politicians listening. I mean, I really think this is an issue that with the right level of leadership we can solve and and it can be an awesome story that everyone can be thrilled that they were a part of what advice would you give to any young entrepreneurs who are listening um i mean not necessarily going into packaging because it sounds like what's been so key in driving your mission is realizing what having a very clear mission in the first place like a clear statement uh a previous guest i had on was simon sinek and he initially went became famous for his first ted talk on finding your why what what is the key driver the thing that gives you meaning of what you are doing in the first place so i guess my question is anyone out here who's listening they're thinking about they're young you know they've they've got ideas they want to help the world.

1:28:30They'd ideally like to do it through a win-win, possibly capitalistic method. How do they go about finding what their mission should be? I believe this with my heart and soul that the first step is health. You know, like you got to be healthy. You know, like if you are sick or you're not living in alignment, you know, figuring out your why is really hard, you know, I lived that way for a long time. When you're out of alignment, that's what you're dealing with all the time. I think if we could encourage young people to really focus on their physical health, their emotional health, their spiritual health, I truly believe that every human being on this planet has unique gifts to express.

1:29:23and we find out what those gifts are by being really curious about who we are, you know, and, you know, really committing to the deep personal work and like really getting down to the core of who am I? What am I passionate about? Because what the world really needs is passionate people, you know, like, you know, and, and, and, and who you are and what you are and what you can do, that is inside of you. You don't have to look outside of yourself, but do the deep personal work, however that looks for you, their resources are bountiful today. I mean, there are so many good resources out there and there's any money recommend.

1:29:59Well, I mean, I've used them all. So, I mean, for me, the, the, the, the work with plant medicine was foundational for me, but I've done a lot of other work too. I mean, I found doing a lot of therapy work, especially with IFS was really, really internal family systems. Yeah, internal family systems. It's a lot of parts work. It works a lot like the way medicine works, where you're looking at these wounded parts of yourself and identifying that there's a four year old inside of me that's hurting. And I need to understand why that that four year old is hurting. And you can do it with a therapist.

1:30:35And it's really powerful work. And honestly, I mean, the reason I'm sitting here talking about it. I mean, there's nothing to be ashamed of. We all have wounds. We all have traumas. We all have difficult things that we've gone through. And when you get to be a young adult or even a middle-aged adult like me, at some point in your life, it's time to go back in and look at those things and try to resolve them. And the thing about the healing work for me that's been so powerful is as I did it, I didn't have to look for purpose. I didn't have to look for love and compassion and connection. All of those things were just sitting there.

1:31:08They were just sitting there. And they were just clouded by all this friction. And, you know, you know, and once I worked through a lot of that stuff, it just it just became obvious to me. And I've watched that same process for so many other people. And not everybody's path has looked just like mine. But ultimately, for young people, I would tell them, like, stop stressing so much about like, what am I going to do and really get to know yourself. And the easiest way to get to know yourself is what are the things that you love doing? What do you love? And really dive into that. We were talking about music earlier.

1:31:45Like if you really love music, spend a lot of time doing that and begin to understand like my gifts are maybe my gifts are really creative. I'm a very creative person. So I need to work in a creative field, you know, or I'm a math person, you know, and what gives me great joy is solving really complex math problems. You know, um, I'm sure you can relate to that with your, you know, your line of work historically, um, you know, whatever that may be, you know? And so, uh, because ultimately I don't think it's about going out there and finding that thing. I think it's really about finding yourself and those things will present themselves.

1:32:25You know, that's been my experience anyway. Beautiful. Thank you so much. No, thank you. this has been great. This was awesome. Oh, so good. Obviously, Daniel never disappoints with his recommendations. This was sick. So there we are. Thank you so much to Wes for such a frank and open conversation. I love doing this podcast. I get to meet people who are doing this stuff behind the scenes that we might not be aware of. And yeah, so huge thank you to Wes for joining me on this. Do check out his project website, A New Earth. Also, obviously, check out Atlantic Packaging as well. I've linked various things in the show notes.

1:33:04Fingers crossed we can actually start to, as Wes said, become one of the first generations that can have all this cool stuff, be ordering things off the internet willy-nilly, and not have to worry about where all this mountain of packaging trash is going. Hope you enjoyed this. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please share, as always, if this resonated. And I will see you next time. EL drauf noch Nyling