#25 - AJ Jacobs - The Power of Social Experimentation

31:01But the fact is the last thing he did on earth was change his mind. I love that. And the second example is Ben Franklin said the older he gets, the less certain he is of his own opinions. So he was big into epistemic humility. And he told this story at the convention. It's sort of like a joke parable where he said, there was a French lady who said to her sister, it's so weird. I am the only person I have ever met who is right on every single issue. And his point, of course, was we all are the French lady. We all think, except for people who, like you, who are aware of their epistemic limits, we all think that we are right almost all the time.

31:50And he was saying that you got to be aware of your biases. So they were doing the sort of this cognitive bias behavioral economics in a very primitive way 250 years ago. I sense, if I had to pick, if you leaned in one direction, you seem more like a living constitutionist to me, I'm going to guess. Your guess is correct. Steel man, the originalist side for me. Where are your biases against the originalist? What's the strongest case for being an originalist? I love that question. All right. Well, yes, there are a few things that they could argue. First of all, originalism started because the Supreme Court in the 60s was very liberal and progressive.

32:37And a lot of the landmark civil rights cases that we know were from that court. It was called the Warren Court. So Brown versus Board of Education, which made segregation illegal, and the Miranda Rights, which gave more rights to the accused, and Intermarriage, the Loving case where it said bans on marriage between races are unconstitutional. So liberals and progressives were cheering. This is great. Conservatives said, wait, this is not good because these are nine unelected people and they are making decisions, these liberal decisions that change millions of lives. And America is not ready for it.

33:27This is something that should be voted on. So they said, we got to have a different philosophy for these judges, that they are just going to focus on the most narrow text, what the text says, so that they can't go willy-nilly and impose their will on millions of Americans. So then a couple of the liberal justices died. Nixon appointed conservatives. Then you have a majority conservative court. And now they're the ones who are dictating what millions of people. And now liberals are like, oh, wait, maybe that wasn't the best idea to have nine unelected people saying what we should do. So, originally, originalism was meant to constrain judges, to keep them very focused and narrow.

34:22That has not turned out to be the case. As you can see from the abortion rulings, they are not practicing restraint. They are making radical decisions. So another way to steel man it, though, is that the Constitution is, it's not a poem, it's not a metaphor. It is more like a contract or more like a recipe. And you don't go changing the recipe ingredients and instructions willy-nilly. You have to have continuity. That's the whole point of society. You need some predictive behavior. It's the rules of the game. Yeah. So you can't in poker all of a sudden say, well, two pairs beats three of a kind because that's the way I like it.

35:13So this is, if you want to have a civil society, you can change the Constitution. There's a way to make amendments. But while we have it as is, you've got to follow it the way it is. Did I convince you to be an originalist? You've strengthened their case to me, you know, because I can see the argument of like, yeah, if you don't have, I mean, to me, it seems like, I mean, again, the theme of this show is about the win-win solutions. But this is truly a case where I think you want a bit of both. If you are an extreme in either direction, you're heading in a bad way. You need to have, you know, it doesn't have to be this trade-off, let's find a higher perspective where you get the best bits of originalism and the best bits of living constitutionalism.

35:59um, and try and synthesize them. And it's difficult and it's nuanced, but that's where you're probably going to get a better outcome. But it's, it's difficult because at the same time, like you look at America and yes, obviously it's got lots of problems, but it is still like, there's a reason I emigrated here. It is the best place to live. It really is. And like, I, I'm not knocking Europe. I'm not knocking the UK. I love it too, but I love it here. And And it has so many core fundamental principles that you can't really find in most of the other parts of the world. You have it to an extent in Europe in some parts.

36:36But like key things like freedom of speech, the, oh, now I'm going back. but like core liberal values, like it's baked, it's baked like the freedom to self-express, the freedom to conduct business, et cetera, has been baked into the US and it has, you know, it has basically, it's been the number one country. It's led economically and again, that's not to say it hasn't done some stuff wrong, but overall on net, it has been doing amazing things. So there's clearly something right in there that we need to adhere to. And I think most people who've lived in the West, you know, like a lot of the Western nations have like copy pasted many of those parts into that it's not officially like UK has mostly got freedom of speech, not entirely, not as much as the US.

37:24But so, yeah, it's a real dilemma. And I'm starting to understand more why there is such sort of tension within the U.S. a little bit around, I mean, do you think, because we're seeing this almost like civil war, this ideological civil war going on in the U.S. and much of the West between left and right, conservative, liberal, whatever you want to call it. does this stem from this disagreement over the Constitution, or is it something deeper? That's a great question. I think the Constitution is more like a Rorschach test, so you see what you want to see. So I would say that the differences go deeper, and then they are expressed in how you interpret the Constitution.

38:15But you have differences such as people who believe that government is a force for good and that you need regulations versus those who say red tape is strangling us and we need a libertarian society. And even deeper than that, Is it the case that if people were left largely unregulated, would we all act in a way that would make life better? Or is it the tragedy of the commons where if everyone had no regulation, we would overgraze our cows or we would destroy the environment? So those are two very deep, profound. And then religion, I think, is another huge one. I think a lot of your morality in America is based on religion.

39:07Like abortion, I think if you truly believe that there is a soul implanted during fertilization, then yes, it is murder. I understand. Then I don't believe that. So I am not bothered by a three-day-old embryo being taken away. That doesn't bother me. But if I truly believed that, then yes, I understand. So religion to me, the belief system is causing some huge rifts. Yeah, I think the tricky thing in any major complex system, whether it's a country or civilization or a group of people or whatever, it's like the trade-offs between optimizing for choice, allowing choice as much as possible, like true freedom to people make their own choices, but maximizing the area under the curve so that the most people can make the most choices over time.

40:09And sometimes you need some regulations to prevent these tragedy of the commons, or whether it's race to the bottom or moloch trap, whatever you want to call it, these situations where if everyone acts in their own self-interest, it ends up actually breaking the playing field, essentially. You need to have some degree of rule and regulations to minimize that, to give, so to like keep the play, you know, as I say, maximize the length of time that the game can run at all. And then through that, give people as much choice as possible. So it's like, you need a small, like, minimize the number of rules to maximize the amount of choice, but those rules have to safeguard these tragedy of the common situations.

40:54That's the balancing act we've got to figure out. That's a great way to put it. Any ideas how we, like, has living constitutionally, like, is there anything, now we've sort of talked about that, has there anything that's springing to mind from your year of doing this that could help heal America and heal this, like, ideological divide? As a matter of fact, yes. and there are two types. So let me, there are sort of the very specific governmental fixes and I don't want to get too in the weeds on those, but things like, we should not have a Supreme Court without term limits. They should be kicked off after 18 years.

41:38I mean, they didn't live until, they had a much shorter lifespan when the Constitution was written. So having someone on the Supreme Court for 40 years, they're like 89 and they're deciding about internet policy and they don't understand how to turn on a calculator. It's like, that's bad. There's lots about, there's something called the super majority in the Senate where you need 60 people, 60 senators to approve any major legislation. And that is causing all sorts of problems. It was meant so that you didn't have the tyranny of the majority. But now it's so hard to pass anything except like naming a post office that we need to get rid of that.

42:29So there are very specific fixes that I think we could do. On a less specific level, but a more sort of psychological level, I think there are lessons from the 18th century that have changed me for the better. I mean, I don't want to go back to the 18th century. It was sexist. It was racist. Homophobic. It was horrible and dangerous. And you get an infection and you die. It was the worst. And medicine was, I don't know, maybe your friend Brian Johnson can find if this is true, but they had tobacco smoke enemas, which meant they would literally blow smoke up your ass. Is that where the phrase comes from?

43:09It's unclear. I've spent way too long trying to figure out. There are some people who believe it is. It'd be funny if the phrase came first and then it gave someone the idea to blow tobacco smoke up their ass. Yes, maybe. The causality is all messed up. But yeah, you would have a bellows, you'd have someone sort of pumping the smoke and it would go up the hose right in your ass and it was going to cure all sorts of things, stomach ailments, but also general ailments. Anyway, don't go back. However, let me give you just two examples of, first is the one we already talked about, thinking more in a communal way, a more consequentialist way about how the society.

43:47Another is just the idea of cold takes, which I know is the great blog by, I forget his name, the founder, the GiveWell founder. Holden Konofsky. Yes, there it is. But they were very into cold takes long before that. They hated the hot take, and also the technology lent itself to a cooler take because you couldn't just have this outrage and immediately thumb text a bunch of insults. You had to get out your quill pen. You had to dip it in ink. You had to write it. You had to fold it. You had to wax seal it, and it was just sort of a waiting period for your thoughts. And I experienced that in my year.

44:36I loved writing with a quill pen. I went to actually an effective altruism party while I was doing this, and I brought my quill pen because I wanted people to sign it. And one of the people said that she can't use a feather because she's a vegan. So I do apologize to the goose, the geese that I took the feather from. I'm hoping that it just fell off the... Wait, so you wrote your whole book in Quill and Ink. Is that correct? I wouldn't say the whole... I wrote a large part of it, thousands of words. And some, I just, for deadline reasons, I had to use a computer. But I do love... And I don't think we should go back to Quill pens, but handwriting or just cutting yourself off completely from the internet, that alone will change the way you think.

45:28It changed the way, it made me, I think, a more subtle and hopefully more profound thinker because you don't, you, there are no dings and pings when you're writing with a quill pen from, you know, a message saying, you know, oh, Jay-Z just cheated on his wife or whatever it is. You know, you, you are able to concentrate. So wait, wait, you, you didn't use a phone or a computer for basically a year? Yes and no. I tried whenever possible to use the technology of the time. So I had my musket, I had my candles, and I had my quill pen. But the irony is I had to buy a lot of that on the internet. So I bought my candles and quill pens over the internet.

46:17And so, and I did, there was, I had to read so many books about the founding fathers and their mindset. And it was sometimes just so easy to do it over the internet. I see. So you, you, you, you weren't completely rigid, like you allowed some like flexibility and efficiency where, where the efficiency was so great. You had some kind of like internal trade-off going on or what? Exactly. That is exactly right. Is there any thing that you did do that was 100 % based in the 1800s? Like toilet habit or the way you shaved or something like that? Certainly, there was the writing, there was the clothes.

46:57I committed to the bit. And so I had my 18th century clothes. I had my tricorn hat, which I'll put on right now. And the big lesson from the clothes is not to have this false nostalgia for a wonderful world. Because as we mentioned, it was sexist, racist, you get an infection, you die. And there are so many things, modern conveniences that I take for granted that I no longer take for granted. I used to take for granted. For instance, elastic. I will never take elastic for granted again. I am so grateful for it because I had to put on my 18th century socks, which are these big wool stockings, and they don't have elastic, so they fall down your calves and pool around your ankle.

47:51So they had to put on sock belts. They weren't even garters. Garters were too sophisticated. They were just tiny little belts. Every morning I had to put on two belts, one belt on my left sock, one on my right sock. And so the amount of human labor that must have been wasted putting on sock belts is like, thank God for elastic. They not only had like less convenient clothing technology, but they were also more strict in the way they really cared about appearances. That's right. Exactly. So just like massive inefficiency. Whereas people, I don't know, I mean, people do, I guess, like will get dressed up and such.

48:31But when they're, it feels like the average person when they're going down the shops really don't care about what they look like. And like, I know I definitely don't. I look like a complete slob. And I feel like that maybe there were slobs in the day and just like they didn't make it into the pictures. I don't know. But yeah, so so much humor. Yeah, so it must have made you really appreciate just the efficiencies of the little tiny things. And like washing dishes. I mean, they didn't have sinks in their kitchens. So you had to go out to the well or to the river and get the water. And I tried to replicate that in a small way by going to the farthest bathroom in my apartment and filling it up and bringing it to the sink.

49:15I mean, to the kitchen and then using the vinegar and water and sand to try to clean. So that was not the same, I will admit, as going to the river. But it just did give me a sense like, thank God for the sink. I mean, this is an amazing invention that 99 % of human history did not have it. And billions of people still in the world don't have it. So this idea of gratitude is a recurring theme in my work. And this was just another example of what to be grateful for. You actually did a thing called a gratitude trail, right? One time as an experiment, you wanted to go on a mission to thank every single person that was involved in your cup of coffee.

50:02Exactly. So talk us through that. Well, what happened was I've read all of the studies about how healthy gratitude is psychologically and even possibly physically. So, as an atheist agnostic, I would try to say these secular prayers before my family had dinner. I would say thank you to the farmer who grew these tomatoes. Thank you to the woman at the grocery who sold them to me. And my son, who was, I don't know, 11 maybe, he said, why don't you thank him in person? Why are you telling us? We don't care. So, I was like, that is a good idea. And that was the birth of this book idea. And I went with coffee because I love my coffee.

50:51And I went around the world and I thanked everyone who had even the smallest role. So I thanked the barista, but I went to South America and I thanked the coffee farmers. And then I thanked the truck driver, but he couldn't have done his job of driving the coffee beans without the road. So I thanked the people who did the road. And, you know, it was like six degrees of separation. I mean, it never ends. You end up like thanking the first amoeba for crawling out the primordial suit. I did. I did. That was in there. Wait, what? Thanking. It was, yeah, it's called LUCA, last universal common ancestor.

51:30So it was like, yeah, a little, not even a cell that was in like an underwater volcano, they think was our last universal common ancestor. that we are, that is our great, great, great times 8 billion grandparent. So yeah, why not? Why not throw a little love that way? In many ways, I don't know what popped into my head as you're describing, like you realize you start being grateful for every little thing that has led you to this point is essentially what you're saying. Doesn't that make you feel like a kind of reverence, almost like a God-like thing? Because you're kind of, it's in many ways you're being, that's what whenever I've like felt like a quasi-religious experience it is this deep sense of like awe and gratitude for this thing that is greater whether it's like a conscious entity or not I don't know but it's like something that has given rise to this immense complexity of this world we live in and every little thing that has happened to lead to this moment that feels kind of godlike to me.

52:33That is so interesting. I guess I see it as more as you don't have to go to God. And in fact, weirdly, when I did these prayers, I was like, well, why are people thanking God when it's fine to thank God, but also thank the people. Thank the farmers. Thank the guy who's paid a low wage. Okay. I would love to just kind of quick fire, go through some of your other experiments. You outsourced your life for one month to this team in Bangalore, India. How on earth did you find a team that you trusted enough to do this? Because you didn't just outsource like your emails. You literally outsourced every type of decision, including like what arguments you would have with your wife.

53:29So how did that play out? Well, this was very early in the outsourcing. This was like 20 years ago and only banks and law firms were outsourcing to India. But I'm a writer and I thought it's an interesting idea. So I found this team of people in Bangalore who worked for banks and I said, I'm not a bank, but can you help me? I just need someone to, you know, you can order my stuff online. You can answer emails for me. As you say, argue with my wife for me. I had a one-year-old son. You can read bedtime stories to him. And it was fantastic. I loved it. And that was a great, I mean, there were some language barriers.

54:17So there were problems. I remember I asked them to order wax paper, which is that thing you wrap fruit in, and they sent wax mustache strip remover for women. So my wife was like, what are you trying to tell me? That's not good. But it was a fascinating experiment. And actually, this guy called me after that came out, and he said, I'm writing a book on like 20-something careers and how to work fewer hours. can I use your article in my book? And I was like, yeah, sure. I'm not going to charge you for it because he's a first-time writer. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing. A year later, he calls and he says, hey, just wanted to know my book's coming out.

55:05You're chapter eight and it's number one on Amazon. I'm like, what? Like number one of all books. It was Tim Ferriss and it was the four-hour work week and I like my outsourcing is is a chapter in his book which turned out to be great for me in the end that's a win-win yeah because it's all he has thousands of like cult followers so they all know me from that how did your wife react to this because it feels like there's a theme in hearing all of these different life experiments you've done that, you know, for me as an observer, as a friend, I'm like, oh, this is hilarious, but I'm not having to live with this.

55:45Like if Igor did something like this, I could see it being fun for the first few days and then very quickly wearing thin. And especially as you would like stick to these things for a month or even a year or multiple years, like how, like, was she aware of what she was signing up for when she married you? And like, how, have there been any instances where like she really put her foot down and was like enough of this? Well, yes. I mean, And there are quite a few. And, yeah, she definitely has patience. The good part is I get a lot of readers who email and say, we love your wife. She's so patient.

56:17So I forward those to her, and she feels better. There was the menstruation thing. With the outsourcing, it actually wasn't so bad because I – uh And I had, she, she got angry at me because I hadn't picked up cash at the ATM. I said, hold that thought. And I emailed my outsourcers and I said, listen, my wife is yelling at me because I didn't get cash. Can you just argue with her for me? I don't want to argue. Just tell her. She didn't tell me to pick up cash. So how was I supposed to know we were low on cash? And so next day they email her, but they censor me completely. They were like my better half.

57:01So they, instead of saying this sort of nasty rebuttal, they sent her a big I'm sorry card with dancing teddy bears. And she was like, oh, that's so sweet. So it was actually better. Wow. But speaking of relationships, I want to talk because I remember you, either I heard it on one of your podcasts or you told me in person. but didn't you and Igor at one point you predicted whether your relationship would last yes which I think was a very experimental thing to do so can you tell me about that yeah we um we've been dating for about six months and I'd like to say there was a grand reason for us doing it, but I feel like it was, we would just, it was just for shits and giggles.

57:59He asked me, he's like, what we were talking, I think we were talking about the power of doing predictions and like the importance of thinking in probabilities, even around unsavory things. And he was like, okay, what, what's your prediction that we'll be together in three years time? And then we were like, okay, let's make a formal prediction each. We won't, you know, we'll secretly write down our numbers for three years, also in 10 years and one year with the probability of us being together in each. And then we would compare at the same time and do like a big reveal. And I'll add a graphic to this, to the video for people who are watching because I actually talked about it in a TED Talk in the end.

58:40I think that's where you probably saw it. That's where I was. Yeah, it was in a TED Talk. And we're comparing our three probabilities. And we were fairly aligned, although he does point out that I was consistently less confident than him in all three. but they were aligned enough but we did it because I mean as I say partly for fun but also because it is actually useful because let's say I had felt the need to lie and you know I like in my gut was like it's only like a 50-50 in three years or something like that and then I found I was like writing down 80 or something well even if I felt unable to tell him that that's very valuable information for me oh yeah And that's why I think doing formal predictions, even on the difficult things, the emotional things, it can be a very elucidating experience for yourself.

59:33Ideally, you want to be honest with your partner too. And him and I have always tried to cultivate this radical honesty approach to our relationship. I know you've done that too because you did an experiment in radical honesty, which I want to get to. That's right. But yeah, so it was a very, so many people, when I tell them about it, they're like, that's crazy. I would never do that with my partner. I'm like, well, that's a sign of something. Maybe go talk to them about why you can't do it. And how long have you been together now? 10 years. Oh, and what was your prediction of the probability for 10?

1:00:07It was something in the realm of 80 % or 70%. Oh, okay. That's good. So 10 years is a long time to be making, he was only 25, 26, and I was 29, nearly 30, something like that. So yeah, I'd like to say we're going strong. I wonder if that made you increase the probability. I guess that's what you were saying. I mean, there's probably a selection effect going on. Like if we were to pull, if we were somehow to get the whole world that's in relationships to do this experiment, the ones that actually end up doing the experiment and so on probably have a higher probability of succeeding because in the first place, they're able to be comfortable playing this, like this possibly sketchy game with one another.

1:00:55And yeah, so that's the difficulty with predictions is that sometimes the act of making the prediction affects the likelihood of it happening in the first place. You know, it's hard to separate that causality chain, but it's a good mental exercise. And also it trains you to think in probabilities. Right. In this vein of radical honesty, you lived truthfully for one month, where basically, not only would you say the truth if someone asked, no matter how uncomfortable, but you even removed the natural filter that we have of just not saying what's on our mind, and you just let whatever was on your mind come out.

1:01:34So how did that one work out? Well, that one, like everything, it had its wonderful parts and its horrible parts. And I did it because there's this psychologist named Brad Blanton who says that this is a better way to live. You're more authentic. You're going to have highs and lows, but you're more authentic and you'll be happier. I'm not sure that's true. I'll give you an example of one that I don't think worked and then another that did work. So we ran into my wife's friends from college and they were like, oh, we were in a restaurant. So great to see you. And let's hang out in the future. And I had to say what was on my mind, which was, you seem nice, but I have no interest in ever seeing you again.

1:02:29because I barely have time to see my high school friends or my college friends. So I don't need another person. And she was horrified. I felt like a total asshole, which I was. Did you have to explain that you're doing that? She was aware you were doing the experiment. Well, she wasn't. I tried to explain it, and I'm not sure how much it got across because it was. She was too stunned. Yeah, already. Yeah. And my wife, of course, hated it. So I highly recommend against that kind of radical honesty. On the other hand, there's the positive radical honesty. For instance, during that experiment, if I were thinking, oh, you know what, I love that boss I had 10 years ago, and he really taught me some great things.

1:03:15So I would call him. I felt I needed to let it out or call him or email him and just tell him how grateful I was. And it was awkward because I think culturally men are not supposed to be quite that open. But it was wonderful. I certainly felt good. And I think he did. You know, maybe a little stunned at first, but overall, very positive. So I am very much for certain types of radical honesty, sustainable radical honesty. So what's the clearest definition of sustainable versus unsustainable? Is it like no white lies, or are white lies allowed? I think white lies are allowed if the long-term consequences aren't going to be bad.

1:04:05So, for instance, another one was this guy. I think he had some sort of mental illness. I can't remember what, but he would write poems and send them to me. And they were terrible. So am I going to say these are terrible? No, I am going to. And I've disguised the, I've changed the features. So hopefully even no one will know if, but the point is, is that am I encouraging him to keep on wasting his time writing? I don't think so. I think more likely this is not something he wants to do as a full-time job, but it gives him pleasure, and he thought it would share it with me. If I shit on it, is that increasing the general good and encouraging him to do something that'll hurt him?

1:05:07Probably not in my estimation. So I would say, oh, these are great, or find some compliment like, oh, you know, I love this phrase. Maybe there's one phrase out of 100 that actually I did love, so I'd focus on that. So that type of white lie, I think, is okay. If it will cause consequences in the future, if someone really does think, oh, I'm going to be a screenwriter, but they are the worst writer ever, then yes, maybe you should have a sit down with them and say, you know, you're talented in so many ways. maybe this is not the one you were meant to do. This kind of falls into the same kind of like slippery slope dilemma that you have with the originalists and living constitutionalists again, though, because it's like how all the heavy lifting relies upon the person deciding what those consequences, you know, trying to predict what those consequences are.

1:06:06So true. So is it that like some people are good at that and therefore they can live this slightly more like flexible way and others who were just not good at that should just live by the radical honesty type thing? Or is that now you're getting into this weird like two category thing? I don't know. Again, it's this very messy kind of dilemma. My gut says, I mean, it's, that's why I love poker and games of deception like werewolf and social games like that because I get that side of me out, like the tricky deceptive side. through those. And now I don't like it. Like, as I said, Igor and I very much live by like full radical honesty.

1:06:49We really just, I have something on my mind. It comes out. It doesn't matter. I have a crush on someone, whatever. That's just what I do. And it's how we've like cultivated our relationship and it really works. And I would, my gut says, if the world could like emulate that, I think it would be a net beneficial thing just because it seems to be working so well in our relationship. Now that is, that's fascinating. By the way, just one sidebar. I once played a very interesting game of werewolf. I used to write for Esquire magazine and I interviewed the magician David Blaine. And we got along enough that he said, hey, do you want to come to my friend's house tonight?

1:07:30We're going to play this game werewolf, which I hadn't played. And I was like, sure. So I get there and it is Edward, wait, what's his name? The award-winning actor, the great actor, Edward Norton. It was Edward Norton's house. And there were about 20 people, 10 of whom or more were crazy famous. Like Danny DeVito was there. And there was Seth Rogen and Paul Rudd and a bunch of other people. So you're playing werewolf against professional actors? That's it. It's like playing basketball against LeBron James. I was like, I am so out of my depth. And I failed miserably because Edward Norton was so convincing.

1:08:19He was the werewolf, but he was so outraged when someone would bring it up. He would go on a rant about how stupid you were if you thought it was him. And I was like, okay, I guess it's not you. And so I'd be like, well, it's not him. And I got kicked out. And of course it was him. So yeah, that was my experience playing a werewolf. I was outmatched big time. It would be like playing poker against you. It would be like if you and I played poker, that would be the extent of it. If you think professional actors are good, you should play in our games crew where it's a lot of poker players and good games players.

1:08:57Oh, that's true. It is something else. because it's one thing to be able to act well, to act innocent, but you need to also be able to add on the layers of logic of why you need, it's not just like act a convincing story. You need to, the story needs to make sense. You've always got to like cover your ears and eyes of how they're looking and sounding and actually listen to what their words, not the way they present the words. Well, yeah, that would be the only thing scarier, I guess, playing against you. What was it like after you did that month of telling your first lie again. Yeah, it was kind of freeing because, well, actually, you know what?

1:09:35It's the opposite of freeing. Because a lot of times I find when you have this very, this structure, this architecture to your life where you don't have to make as many decisions, that there is something lovely about that, you know, the whole paradox of choice, that when you have too many choices, it's very stressful. So when I do these projects, like with the Bible project. Do I shave today? No, I don't have a choice. If a homeless person asks me for money, yes, I give it to them because the Bible says to help those in need. So there was something lovely about having a structure. And in that case, the structure was you don't have to remember your lies.

1:10:19That is one of the hardest things about lying, is remembering what you told who. and so I had none of that. That was very liberating. So I guess it was, in some senses, it was good because I didn't have to tell people that I don't want to ever see him again, but it was also back to the stress of remembering and figuring out when to lie and when not to. How do you choose which experiments you do? Well, partly I have to get sign-off from my wife, so I have had a lot of readers suggest ideas. And one of the recurring ones is that I should be the greatest lover of all time and do all the positions in the Kama Sutra and learn how to be the greatest lover.

1:11:04And I did bring it up to my wife and she was like, no fucking way. That's terrible. And I agree with her. I actually, I have no interest in that. I just brought it up as just to see. But I leave that to someone with more youth and flexibility. So first, sign off. Secondly, I feel it has to be something where at the end, there will be lessons that can be generalizable to myself, my life outside of this, and also to the reader. So that would be things like slowing down my thinking or being grateful. all of these are lessons and I feel it has to have potential for that. And I like to take on the biggest topics I can, like religion or the constitution or gratitude.

1:11:57And then that allows me to look at it from a hundred different angles. Are there any experiments you would really love to do, but you feel like you can't? There's one that I think you would be great at. maybe you are I want I tried actually for a little bit to become a mentalist you know the ones who can sort of read minds look at the way and I was just not talented enough maybe if I had five years I could do it but I had you know I had to a deadline I have to come out with books so I I did not get to do have you ever tried not not actively I mean I've obviously playing poker you're trying to read people.

1:12:38And I mean, I'm always trying to read someone if, I don't know, I think they're talking about some, you know, a big powerful person talking about a new technology they're building. And I'm trying to read like through the video I'm seeing on the internet, like, are they actually being honest here and so on? But no, I have not actually pursued mentalism as a pursuit. Is it actually real? Well, it's not. I don't think ESP is real. But I think from what I've read, it'd be interesting to know, but from what I've read there, you can't learn to pick up cues and read people better. I mean, the proof is people like, what's his name?

1:13:19Brown? Darren Brown. Darren Brown. I mean, unless he's hiring all these people and they're all shills, what he does is pretty amazing. Yeah, no, I think it is accurate. And I actually, funny enough, I was on a TV show years ago called the, what was it called? The Mind Control Freaks. And I mean, I think I was mostly, you know, because I had the poker player thing and they wanted me to fill this like female femme fatale role. But two of the other people, like hosts on the show claimed to be mentalists. well sorry one was a hypnotist and one was a mentalist and it was it was astonishing that it was so shocking some of the things like they convinced they hypnotized a guy to believe that I was his girlfriend instead of his real girlfriend who was who I met behind the scenes I mean we looked kind of similar but like I mean I was obviously not his girlfriend and they had hypnotized him such that if I would like touch his ear in the same way that she touches his ear that he would believe that I was her.

1:14:24And I went and sat down thinking, okay, there's no way this is going to work. And I had an earpiece in with her saying, oh, this is what he, I would answer this. Because if any question came up that I should know the answer to, because I should have said, the premise of this bit was that him and her were coming to be interviewed about love. It was a TV show about love. So that's why all the cameras were there and they were meant to be doing this interview. But then as the interview was about to start, she excused herself to the bathroom and I came in and he had been pre-hypnotized without his consent, which raises a whole load of questions.

1:15:02Like they thought he was doing some kind of relaxation technique before the episode. They said, oh, we do this for all our like interviewees. And they hypnotized him during that time with like a picture of me that I was his now his girlfriend. And unless the whole setup was to punk me, the presenter, but then they never did a reveal and they never presented the show that way, then it was legit because the guy truly thought I was his girlfriend for like five minutes. He pulled me and sat me on his lap. Because I remember being to the producers, I was like, what am I going to have to do? Like it was, it was one of the craziest experiences of my life, actually.

1:15:36I should, I'll see if I can get the footage and upload it to either this or to my YouTube because it was, it was nuts. So I would love to see that. Yeah. Now you mention it. Yeah. I think mentalism must be real. And it would be, it would be frankly crazy if we're living in a world where there are a percentage of people who can have that level of control over someone. Now I do remember the hypnotist saying that it only works if the person kind of like is willing to be like hypnotized in the first place, but they did that one under false pretense, right? Because he thought that he was doing like a meditation relaxation thing.

1:16:12Well, I do feel that I am so suspicious and skeptical that it would be very hard to hypnotize me, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in this interview you're going to hypnotize me. Maybe that's all I'm doing. Maybe this whole show is hypnotizing people en masse. Have you been hypnotized yourself? no no I mean I've done um like meditation techniques and been in you know altered states of consciousness through those kind of things and certainly you can you can get yourself into suggestible states but I would like to think that I've only done it in in ways where I'm like willingly I know what I'm you know I'm like oh I want to be suggestible right now god and I think it's very yeah you can do when someone's in this like open-hearted state basically you can I guess, like shape their mentality in a way.

1:17:01And so it is important to like be somewhat careful around who you're doing this with. But it makes me now wonder as like AI is getting better at manipulating people. Yeah. Who knows? AI hypnotists. That should be easy. That's an info hazard. That would be a very interesting experiment. I agree. Like trying to be a mentalist, but doing it in an ethical way. And I don't even know if it would be, I guess, yeah, the moral reason to do it would be to show the world whether such a thing is possible and how to protect themselves psychologically from having that done to them, particularly as technology is getting better.

1:17:41Oh my goodness, right? So, I mean, it sounds like a big part of doing these immersions and these social experiments is building new habits. it's like you're forcing yourself to adopt new habits whether they're good or bad as someone who like consistently struggles with certain bad habits and and always looking for like new hacks of like how to get rid of them and you know like I've gotten one of these little phone safes to lock my phone away in etc but yes I don't I haven't successfully built up the habit of using it, like I forget that it's there, et cetera. Are there any like tips that you can give to people who are trying to develop new healthy habits or get rid of old ones?

1:18:24Sure. I can tell you what has worked for me. One is definitely micro goals. I am a huge fan of micro goals. So instead of saying, oh, I'm going to get on the treadmill for half an hour, I sort of trick myself into it. So I'll say, all right, I may or may not be on the treadmill for half an hour, but I am going to commit to putting on my sneakers. That's it. I don't have to get on the treadmill. But then I have the momentum. I've got my sneakers on. It's like, well, I might as well get on the treadmill. I'm not going to commit to 30 minutes, but I'll commit to 30 seconds. And then I'm on there.

1:19:05I'm like, you know what? I can do this at least five minutes. So that to me is very effective, these micro goals. Instead of saying I'm going to write a book, say I'm going to write 300 words today. And then to make it into chunks that are digestible and doable. There's another strategy that I actually, I found incredibly effective. I don't really use it anymore. But in case it helps anyone else, it's this idea of almost blackmailing yourself. And I think it was developed by this Yale psychologist. And the idea was you would say you don't want to smoke cigarettes. you would say, if I smoke a cigarette, well, let me give you what it was for me.

1:20:00It was dried mangoes, which are mangoes. They're delicious. No, I know them. Yeah. Yeah. But they're basically sugar. They're candy. They've taken all of the liquid out and it's just sugar. And I knew they were making me fat. So I'm like, all right. I said to my wife, I'm not going to have a dried mango. And if I do, you are going to send this check off. And I made out a check for$100. And you can either do it to a charity, but if you really want to be effective, do it to an anti-charity. Write that check to someone you hate. So I wrote a check to the American Nazi party for a hundred dollars.

1:20:47And I said, if I eat a dried mango, I am serious. You send this check, like not bluffing. And she's like, all right. And I have not eaten a dried mango in 16 years. Wow. So maybe, maybe less, maybe 10 years. It, it, cause I am not going to, Like, I'm not going to freaking support the American Nazi Party. It is so effective. So if I really needed to quit something like cigarettes, that I do think. And there are websites that will help you set it up. I think one is called stick.com, S-T-I-C-K-K.com. And you can put in sort of your goal and then your anti-charity. And I think they may even send it off for you.

1:21:36like you put in your credit card. Oh, wow. So you just have to be honest when you do the bad thing. You know, if you eat a piece of mango. Yeah, I mean, I wonder if the most, so funny enough, I did a similar thing like that with a good friend of mine. You actually know him, Tim Urban, who was struggling to get the first edit or one of the edits of his book done by a certain date. And so we agreed that he would have to send, I think, some absurd, like it was like 10 % of his net worth to an anti-charity that he couldn't stand. And I think I even threw in some money of my own on top of it if he didn't get there.

1:22:16And he damn well got the book done. Although even then he's still like, I mean, the dude's got the most successful TED Talk of all time on procrastination, his like issues with procrastination. Even then he got it barely by the deadline. Like a few hours. So powerful stuff, but it got it done. So yes, I can absolutely attest to that one. Although I weirdly haven't incorporated enough for myself. So yeah, thank you. Yeah, maybe I need to go back to it. I mean, it was so effective. I don't know. There is the stress of like, you know, you really don't want that money to go. So to finish up, I would love to talk a bit about your book that you wrote on puzzles.

1:22:55It's called The Puzzler Book. And I've never struggled to get through, you know, I was like, oh shit, I'm interviewing AJ in four days. is I've got to get through this book or like at least skim it. It is not a book you can skim, at least certainly not for someone like me, because it's full of puzzles. Every chapter, it's like, here's five of the most interesting puzzles you've ever seen. So I would just be like trying to skim and then I'm stuck for the next half an hour trying to solve some of these damn things. So that is a lovely compliment. Thank you for being stuck. So I would love to dig into like the reason why you wrote that book, which is you make quite a bold statement, which is you believe that puzzles can help heal the world.

1:23:38So explain why. I do. Yes. A little bit, maybe a little hyperbole, but I do think, I mean, we've talked gratitude and curiosity. Curiosity, I think is one of the greatest virtues that we have. And I, you might, I think you had her on your show, Julia Galiff. I haven't, not yet. Well, she wrote a great book called The Scout Mindset, which was all about how we should sort of have an explorer's mindset. We shouldn't come in with preconceptions. We should look and always be curious. And my version of that is the puzzler mindset, because I have loved puzzles since I was a kid, not just jigsaws, but crosswords and mazes and word scrambles, you name it.

1:24:25And what I love about it is that it's a game and you're trying to get to a goal. And so what I like is the idea of reframing problems as puzzles. And in fact, the musician Quincy Jones, that is his life philosophy. He says, I don't have problems, I have puzzles. because even just that reframe, problems are so, there's such a negative word and it's intimidating and it makes you stress. Puzzles, you're like, okay, let me roll up my sleeves and see how we can solve this. It's very solution oriented, which I love. So whether it's, you know, I have a puzzle in my marriage, like how do we solve what to watch on TV without screaming at each other, or a puzzle with raising my kids.

1:25:21That's, to me, and to me, the biggest, well, I don't know, but certainly one of the most important ways to reframe the world as puzzles is when you disagree with someone. And so if you are on the opposite end of the political spectrum, the way I used to do it would be to try to beat them down with facts and evidence. And that did not work. That would just make me angry, them angry. They dig their heels in further, et cetera. Right, exactly. So instead, I try to reframe discussions with people I disagree with as puzzles. Why do we believe what we believe? What is the evidence we have? Where did we come up with these beliefs?

1:26:12What evidence is there that might change my mind or her mind? And if we do continue to disagree, then what can we do to move forward? Is there anything productive that we can do while acknowledging we disagree? That to me, A, it's much more productive. You're much more likely to come up with something tangible that we can do. And B, anger is an unpleasured emotion. I mean, some people, I think, thrive on anger. I think some people like it, and especially now. I don't. I find it incredibly unpleasant. So if I can avoid anger, that's a plus as well. So that is the way, I think, having this shared goal where you're in it, not as a debate, you're in it as a shared adventure of why do we believe what we believe and what can we do?

1:27:08and that cooperative adventure is very win-win it's a very win-win it's not zero-sum where i'm going to crush them and they're going to crush me it's like let's do this together and figure out how we can both come out of it with a positive result yeah it's like you've got this problem where it's like when you're in it you're you're the other side of the tennis court from this person it's like ah but then it's like almost like you're both stepping off the tennis court every half an hour to discuss the interesting things that happened. Like, oh, when you hit that serve and I couldn't, you know, I then thought about doing this.

1:27:43So it's like that, you can have that moment of collaboration where you work together and like observe it from a higher dimension, almost, you're like looking outside the box, you know, so to speak, discussing it together. And then you can dive back in and continue with your competition and go back out again. um yeah it's it's it's it's injecting curiosity into a conflict and when you when you start injecting curiosity which is a very key part of human nature as well as conflict you know like needing to be right needing to be the winner they're both core core elements but if you can find a way to combine the two then you can have this like higher order of wisdom emerge essentially you can find you can find a like a shared solution or at least it's that you stand a chance of finding a shared solution, when you can both step outside it and see the game for what it is, see the conflict for what it is, with a degree of curiosity.

1:28:36Our mutual friend, Will McCaskill, he had an idea, which I think is brilliant, where instead of debate societies in high schools, you have people who try to, from different points of view and then you try to incentivize them to come to to explore together why they disagree and can we come to a solution so it's sort of an anti-debate society and i love that idea yeah it's about like finding what are the core things that you do okay we disagree on a lot of things but there might be some things that we actually agree on let's see if we can actually find them and that is that's a puzzle exactly as opposed to like a competitive game but speaking of competition, because I mean, this is a podcast about competition, how would you describe yourself as a competitive person?

1:29:27You know, you're clearly someone who loves puzzles, you love intellectual pursuit, you get what I call nerd sniped, clearly quite easily with like, you describe how you go through, like much of your day is dictated by when the various daily puzzles like Wordle or the spelling bee come out or the daily crossword, right? So would you describe yourself as a competitive person? That is interesting. I think I've changed. I used to be much more competitive. I think I'm still competitive, but in a less angry way. I still like the idea of winning, but I try, and it's an uphill battle, not to be angry with myself or other people when I lose and just more see it like a puzzle.

1:30:14Oh, well, it didn't work that time. Let me try another strategy. And the other, I did for this puzzle book, I did participate in the World Jigsaw Puzzle Championships and it was in Spain. And I was totally unqualified because I am not really a jigsaw fanatic. I think it's fine. But there are these people who spend hours every day jigsawing. And I got in sort of because no one else from the United States entered because it was the first year of the jigsaw tournament. And I was totally outmatched. I brought my family with me. It was the four of us. And we had eight hours to do four big puzzles, 2 ,000 pieces.

1:31:06We finished one and a third puzzle. The Russian team finished all four puzzles in like three hours. And we were like, what? Wow. So they're like an order of magnitude faster than you guys, like 10x. Order of magnitude. I mean, it was wonderful in some sense to watch anyone at that level, whether it's poker or basketball or jigsaw, it's just the best in the world. I loved it. And they had all sorts of meta strategies that I had never thought of. Like if you shouldn't always do the border first, it's a very colorful puzzle, start with the colors. Or if it's a monochromatic, if it's like a big blue sky, sort by shape instead of sort by color.

1:31:50So they had all of these tricks of where they had to decide which strategy to pursue. And I love that level. But we came in second to last. So we were not last, but we were second to last, which I'm okay with. I'm okay with second to last. I felt that that was a good place. At least we weren't last. Yeah, so it goes to show that just being good at puzzles is not sufficient to go and enter the world championships of something for the first time. Right. You need to train. No, these people every day, hours a day. So you say you used to be competitive and now you're not. What do you think it is that has made you, would you say that you have a healthier or less healthy relationship with competition?

1:32:39And if so, what made you become that way? It depends how you define competitive. If you define competitive as like, I like winning, yeah. But if you define it as I get furious when I don't, that is what I used to be. And that is something I work very hard to try not to be. And sometimes I fail, sometimes I succeed. Part of it, I think, is rooting for my kids to beat me. I like it when my kids beat me at chess or at games or at cards, which is interesting. I remember reading about Ronald Reagan. I read his son's autobiography and how Reagan was a great swimmer and he beat his son. And then one day when his son was 18, his son beat him and it was a terrible day for Ronald Reagan.

1:33:35I love it when my kids beat me. I am like, this is the greatest. Because I know I've had my peak. I'm on my way down. I want them to thrive. So I have very little competitive spirit with my kids. It sounds like you're describing that it's in many ways you see the kids as an extension of yourself or like you're able to expand your definition of self such that you can feel happy at their success or something like that. because you can't have like the unhealthy, like you need some degree of separation. You just see someone as the other in order to have this unhealthy competitiveness. Be like, they are my opponents.

1:34:21They are my enemy. They are definitively different from you such that you can be competitive with them. Whereas with your kids, you love them so much that you almost see them as an extension of yourself. I mean, I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I wonder if there's a degree of that that makes you therefore like see, like you get such joy out of seeing them beat you? Cause it's like, wow, this is. Well, I, that's a great point. Well, I would say that reminds me, I think maybe there is a sense of sort of the expanding circles of morality. And I remember a few years ago, my kid was on a soccer team and he was, they were kicking the other team's ass.

1:35:01So it was like 12 to nothing. And I started to feel very anxious for the other team. And so I started to root for the other team. And I kind of, I did it verbally. I didn't even know, but I was like, come on, you got it. And the other parents on the sideline were like, what the hell are you doing? But my feeling was, you know, my team is going to win, but I don't like, the reason why I I like effective altruism is one of the reasons is the whole idea is to lessen suffering, whoever it is. So I don't want the other team to suffer. I would like them to lose, but lose by two goals instead of by 12 goals.

1:35:49So maybe there's a little of that, the sort of the effective altruism mindset of trying to lessen suffering has made me a little less competitive in certain ways. One of the lines you have in the book is that maybe we should take something like climate change, which is a very fraught topic. It gets people very emotional. They tend to dig their heels in. They either believe X or believe Y about it. And you say we should stop calling it the climate crisis and reframe it by calling it the climate puzzle. I think that's kind of, I mean, I don't know if that's going to land. I would love it. But imagine that being like, you know, in Congress or at the UN.

1:36:29Like, so how do we solve the climate puzzle, guys? I think I'm sold on it, though, because it would, there's something in that term. It's like puzzle. It's like, ooh, everyone's like, there's a childishness to it. There's an innocence. It takes away the drama, even though something can be very dramatic. I don't think it's going to, I guess the naysayers would say, oh, well, now you're diminishing the urgency of it. You're making it seem less important. And it's like, well, I think we're all aware enough that it's important enough. We just need to turn down the temperature so we can think a little bit.

1:37:02You know, it comes back to this hot take, cold take thing. We need to be able to think about this rationally and with a bit more like just curiosity and inspiration in our hearts. And so that little word might be sufficient. I love that. And I think it shows the importance of framing. I am a big fan of framing. I read a fascinating study about the prisoner's dilemma. If you call it the Wall Street game, people act differently than if you call it the community or cooperation game. No way. Yeah, according to the, you know, I'm skeptical of single studies, but that's what this point study said. Another single study that I'm probably skeptical of, but I love the story, is they gave people this certain smell.

1:37:48And they told half the people that they were smelling Parmesan, and half the people that they were smelling vomit. And then they asked them, you know, how they felt about it. Did they like the smell? and of course the parmesan people are like oh yeah that's delicious it smells great i mean they have chemically a very similar yeah they do so yeah that i sometimes think you know life life may give you vomit but let's try to reframe it as uh as parmesan and uh and maybe things would be better

1:38:24so there we go huge thank you to aj for such a fun conversation huge thanks to you guys as well, of course, for tuning in. Do check out some of his books and writings, all linked below in the show notes. Or if you want, check out his Puzzler podcast. It's excellent. And as always, if you enjoyed this, please tell your friends, whether that's digitally or verbally, whatever you like, just please tell your friends. Win-win. Thank you, and I will see you soon.

1:39:00Thank you.