From BBC Radio to YouTube at 70 | Jo Good on Reinventing Yourself & Staying Relevant

0:00Welcome to Wish I Knew. I'm Emily Trinouth and this is the podcast where we explore the lessons, pivots and defining moments that shape who we all become. Today's guest is someone who embodies confidence, independence and living life entirely on her own terms, Jo Good. Jo has built an incredible career spanning decades from acting to broadcasting to years on radio and TV and more recently becoming a social media phenomenon in her 70s. She's proof that confidence and curiosity don't have an expiry date. In this episode we talk about how to build your own independence, the freedom that can come from being unmarried and child free and what happiness really looks like when you define it for yourself.

0:42We also dive into her life in showbiz across the decades, how she's transcended from traditional media to social and how to live your best, boldest and bravest life at 70 and beyond. It's warm, honest and full of wisdom, a conversation about freedom, self-worth and living life exactly how you want to. Now if you enjoy this episode please don't forget to follow, like and subscribe to Wish I Knew. It really helps us to grow the show and get more amazing guests. So with that let's get into it.

1:19Jo Good, welcome to Wish I Knew. Thank you so much for being here. I've been so inspired by your journey from actress to broadcaster to radio presenter to YouTuber. And there's a very personal tie in for me with YouTube because my mum is probably your biggest fan and was so excited for you to be coming on today. So thank you so much for sparing the time. Can I thank Debbie, Emily's mum? Debbie, thank you. That's why I'm here. She will absolutely love that. And I guess I'm going to start with something that I ask every guest at the beginning, which is a bit of a reflective question in terms of your entire career and everything you've achieved.

2:04What do you think that younger Jo would think if she could see you today?

2:10Younger Jo didn't think much. This is the problem. Younger Jo was quite banal, which I'll go into. There wasn't much depth at all. and I don't think she ever had role models very self-obsessed so if she saw me now I think she'd just take it as granted that I would be where I was yeah I'd put the time in yeah and do you think you were were you always ambitious totally so ambitious very competitive very jealous only jealous of people not jealous of people's partners nor their families their wealth nothing their car nothing material very jealous of people's careers if it if it was on the same path as mine and is that something that you felt stemmed from somewhere in particular or was it just something as you were kind of on the rise that's interesting I don't know um I think because of the nature of the career I've taken which is acting broadcast it's all based on talent and a lot because I'm starting off in a really nasty vein a lot of people get there with no talent and I think that made me even more determined to get there because I just thought how can how can people have so much um value and um notoriety with so little talent I'm not quite so competitive with talented people because I admire it and I think yeah you've got what I haven't got I'm not saying I'm not talented but there are their talents are not what I've got so I appreciate but it's when and you know this in this day and age a lot of people get there with very little I I refer to them as meringues.

4:03You know, if you push a knife in, there's nothing inside but just dead air. I think it's interesting because being in the entertainment showbiz space, there are only few spaces, right? So I often talk about it as supply and demand in a way of there's only so much of supply that someone can post or the brand can allocate as their ambassadors or spots on a TV show. And so it is naturally a very competitive space. So I think that probably doesn't surprise me necessarily, but it's certainly interesting. That's one of the first things that you reflect upon. Yeah. And in fact, that has altered a lot now because there is a lot more space given.

4:55Sorry, I don't keep banging the mic. You'd think with my mic technique, I'd stop banging the mic. But if you think of the social media, it's very democratic. So everyone, when I was an actress, you couldn't work without an equity card. Anybody can be in a film, anybody can go on stage, anybody. It's far more democratic. So in a way, there are far more opportunities. so those who have carved a niche for themselves um have had to I think knock a lot of people out the way yeah to get there yeah and um what was it that got you into acting to begin with I I was always a show-off I was um I was a very um precocious child and um I grew up in Australia I was born in London but grew up in Australia because my dad was a quantities of air.

5:45So he was flown over to Australia to help build Australia in the 50s. Wow. You know, they needed a lot of building industry to go over. So we went over and my mum cried for the whole time. She hated it. I loved it. But I went back and forth. I think I went to eight schools. We kept coming back to England, going back. So if you're the new girl in a school, you either sink or swim. and I always had the wrong accent, either an English accent or an Australian accent. So I was a little bit different to the rest of them anyway. I was always new and I know I milked it to my advantage that I had immediate attention because I wasn't familiar and so I just milked it basically.

6:28And also I'm very short. Short people are like terriers. It's why you get a lot of short actors. but you know people always go gosh I thought he was so much taller and then I think you you you overcompensate when you're short yeah I get that a lot as well actually you're not as short as me but you are short I've got heels on I am small best outfit I'm sorry about this Mike and you've got such a great outfit and thank you so do you but do you find that you pushed a bit harder because you were shorter I don't know whether it was intentionally personally I think first of all it made me always wear heels especially when I first started working I felt like I needed to wear heels to be taken seriously and so I'd walk in and I started working in finance and so I'd sort of trot around Canary Wharf in these heels I know it was a dream at the time my feet are paying for it now um but it made me feel more sort of powerful in a way um And I don't know.

7:31I mean, I probably quite similar to you in the sense of moved schools a fair bit, moved around a fair bit and was quite became quite familiar in being the new person. You become an extrovert. You do. And I actually was actually very shy growing up. But then later on sort of started to find actually faking confidence makes these situations a bit easier. So much better. You're absolutely right. Faking confidence. Yeah. And so what was your first acting job? Professional acting job. I played Brenda Broccoli. So for my generation, I went to a London drama school and you come out with no equity card.

8:11You had to have 40 weeks on a provisional equity card to get your full equity card. To get a provisional equity card was very, very difficult, but children's theatre often would or repertory companies would. So I ended up in Bradford doing children's theatre, playing a broccoli leaf, Brenda Broccoli, for 40 weeks to get my full card. Wow. And, you know, children's theatre teaches you a lot because kids just walk away if they're not interested. Yeah. You have to keep their attention. And then I came back and went into Worthing Rep. And Worthing Rep was quite a good rep. And we did different shows every week.

8:50And, again, I went in as a dancer because I could dance. Not very good at singing. So I was in the chorus of Gigi and then Gypsy, met my husband at Worthing. That's a whole different story. And then went into the worst soap opera that's ever been on television for four years, which was Crossroads. Yeah. But I was desperate to be in it. Desperate to be in it. Was that a real career defining moment for you though? And, you know, we were talking about my determination. and when I was looking at are we allowed to say you sent me some of the questions you did send me some of the questions it was really interesting to sit it's always a luxury to sit and talk about yourself but also to have a look because I don't ever really we're not the generation that look back and reflect or even ask how we were feeling mentally so it is quite a luxury thank you to be asked these things because I tend never to look back But when I do, everything I've ever wanted to do in radio, on stage, television and now social media is because I was so determined to succeed.

10:01Nothing would stop me. And to get into Crossroads, Crossroads had 25 million viewers five nights a week. Wow. There is nothing, even Strictly in its heyday didn't have that. And when I was at drama school, everyone was writing to the Royal Shakespeare Company. I was writing to ATV television in Birmingham saying, please, can I be on Crossroads, please? When they gave me an audition, Jack Barton, the producer, said, Joe, I have a file of letters. It's a file that I would write to him twice a week. Wow. Determined to be on it and then was on it. And it was a massive moment because I then became an overnight recognisable face.

10:42Yeah. And you were treated like royalty, even though it was a dreadful soap opera, but it was so popular. Yeah, goodness me. And how many times do you think you wrote to him then? Oh my God, I would have written, all the time I was at drama school asking for an audition, and then right up until I got the audition, which was like two years having worked as a professional actress. Wow. So three or four years I wrote to him. But in those days, it was so much easier to get yourself in through the door than now. You know, now you're sending CVs and no one answers anything. No one, you know, in those days, if you were determined, people had to listen to you or see you.

11:25They had to. He would have, you know, his management would have said, you've got to see this actress. She sent you all of these. And so he called me in. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose it's different now where you would send a videotape in or you would send a research. And they would never, you know, I know this because a lot of my friends are still actors and I help them self-tape, which I think is absolutely shocking. Inequity should never have allowed it to happen because you don't know where these tapes are going to end up. If anyone ever watches them, you know, there's poor actors filming by their sink.

11:56You don't know how to use an iPhone. Still, you know, and you just think, whereas it was a much more level playing field. for my generation. Ruby Wax said, if there's a door, kick it in. And I absolutely have lived by that motto. Yes. Oh, I love that. And it just goes to show that talent isn't enough, that it takes hard work and determination. Oh my God. You must have met them, the people who are so talented and don't have the balls to push through. And you just think, I know people 10 times more talented than I could ever be, but they just don't have the confidence. or the drive yes it's so frustrating yes and was there anyone that helped you along the way in the sense of mentors or key voices that you can think of that helped to sort of bring that out of you or was it always that self-determination and you see and that again I see my I'm sitting here moaning and I it's just that it's really nice for me to talk about all this from the media point of view is that I never asked anyone to help me because no one could.

13:03There is no one that could have helped me get an equity card, get on the radio, no one could help me. And also people, if they're there on the radio station that I was attempting to get onto, they didn't want to give their power to me, you know, so you hold it very close. So one of my gripes is I'm sent so many emails to the BBC from parents of kids in media college saying, do you know, could you help Wendy? Because she's coming out and she really wants to get into radio. And I always answer, but I just say, A, Wendy should be emailing me. B, I have no power. I can and I can't anymore. I can bring you into the radio station and let you have a look.

13:51That's gone. Unless you can bring a passport, a bodyguard. They won't let you in through the, you know, BBC will not let you in through the door. Yeah. So that way is prevented now. I'll tell you a story. There was a guy who's now a producer at the BBC who, this is such a crazy story. I was doing an Only Fools and Horses convention in Exeter. He was at Exeter University. Clever. Now, this is how you do it. Very clever. We got snowed in and he emailed me because I put it on my Instagram. I'm snowed in it. And he went, listen, my mum listens to you. my family we always have you on the radio I know you're snowed in at the hotel I'm a student at Exeter I would love to buy you a coffee can I do so I went yes I'm sat here doing he turned up with a scented candle I always remember this gorgeous I'm not going to name him but if you're watching you know you are um and he said to me I just want to get into radio I so love radio and I said and this was this would have been five years ago when it was different I said um okay okay, well, meet me one day at Broadcasting House and I'll just take you around.

14:58You can look at the studios and see how it works and look at the desk because you need to drive it. And he did. And in those days, I signed him in. He didn't need a passport. He didn't need it. I signed him in. This is no word of a lie. We took him around. One of the senior producers at that time came into the studio and went, oh, my God, we haven't got, next week, we need phone answers to put the phone-in shows. And I said, you've got someone here if he's free. and he went yeah I'll come up I mean that's he took you know the doors open he walked through and he said I'll bring my passport I'll bring all my stuff he you know they expect you to bring qualifications and proof of identity and he started answering the phones on my show goodness he's now producer wow but not one bit of that could happen now yeah that was five years ago not I couldn't let anyone in now yeah anyone in through the door but I think the moral of that story is the is the initiative that he took upon himself which I think is so key and it's a really good lesson isn't it and um I found because I I kind of rose up to quite senior roles in big organizations from being in a niche field in the creative space where there wasn't anyone with experience and I came into this over 10 years ago and um and so naturally I found that there were lots of people wanting to work with me or you know or have advice and um I'm part of some amazing mentor programs but mentorship is really tricky because it's just it's hard to do at scale and it's hard for one person to do and I think that experience for that particular guy would have been life-changing well it is life-changing for him because he's now a producer totally and I understand why you have mentorships now I mean there weren't in my day yeah because you could break through doors you just can't now yeah you can't people don't even have phone numbers isn't it you know we would called call constantly yeah nothing so you do need mentorship yeah and I feel really sorry because how frustrating is that yeah it's it it's not as simple as just going and knocking on the or dropping your CV off anymore.

17:12Yeah. And did you find that back in those days it was much more male-dominated as well? Was that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, not bad, but a difficult thing. Do you know, I just, we all accepted it. We just accepted it. And it's when you look back and you think, how did this happen? So I'm the oldest female radio presenter on the BBC. since Annie Nightingale died there's hardly any there's no other woman my age anywhere near my age still on the radio the editors were all male that's changed the station I work for now all the management is female I mean it's unbelievable I just accepted it and also and forgive me times are different I was an actress I knew my feminine wiles I mean that sounds but you're nodding you're mum Debbie you'll understand do you know what I mean you know your feminine wiles and so in a way you know I played that to my advantage people call it pretty privilege pretty privilege there you go thank you that's less demoralizing but yeah pretty privilege I was a pretty blonde young actress.

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19:44You can take it with or without food and at any time of day, which really matters when your routine isn't always predictable. Even if I forget it in the morning, I know I can still take it later and stay consistent. and you don't just have to take my word for it vitals is backed by hundreds of scientific studies and has been developed alongside leading experts so if you're looking for a simple way to support your focus energy and overall health as you work towards your own goals you can check out heights in the link below in the show notes and you can use the code wishinew20 for 20 off in your first month that's wishinew20 for 20 off your first month i hope you love it just as much as i do it's a funny one because and it's a really interesting topic to talk about because i feel like when people you know it's almost like off the record use that to your advantage is the kind of advice that people give you and not in the sense of flaunt yourself around flaunt yourself or it's we're very lucky as women that we can do that and i found that actually being feminine so like we were saying it's not about flaunting yourself but being feminine is a power in itself and that can be used in various different environments and I found like what my first job was in I worked in sales for quite a bit and I worked in pensions and investment funds for my first like proper job and I was selling to old IFAs and so financial advisors and I was really know I was just you know going into their offices in my heels befriending them um and you know I loved it they did I bet and I was one of their best sales people and and but we just loved it and you know and it was really nice and I was also getting advice from them I remember my car broke down and one of them was really into cars and he was giving me all this advice and they were so lovely and and I love talking to people and I connected people no matter where they're from their age anything like that and I felt like but that for me was an advantage more because I was different to every other person that was knocking on their door and I think probably the same for you in the sense of so pleased to hear you say that because I have to tread very carefully around your age group how I answer those sort of questions I'm so it's so healthy yes that you could speak like that yeah because I'm so scared of where this is going yeah I know it is a scary you know we might you know it's a scary concept to talk about in the sense of people are quite listen I did um I worked for a brand a fashion brand and we were all we were doing a styling event and I have to be careful because this is probably but anyway we're not in this country and um so with all these influences from abroad at this event and I said um oh gosh we had such great fun last night we all went into let's call him charlie charlie's room like we're all in charlie's room last night trying on all these clothes and he was like looking at me like and afterwards when we came off he went oh my god joe i just wondered where that was going all of you in my room and i went oh my god you know do i have to be that cautious yeah and he went it's just he went don't worry don't worry he just said i got really worried yes that how that was going to appear.

23:07Yeah. Oh my gosh. This is how very careful we have to be. Yeah. I think it's one of those things if you, it's like knowing where the absolute line is. But again, anyone can take anything. Yeah. Anyone can take anything personally. Exactly. And so going sort of fast forwarding to now, you are fabulous. You're. I'm there still. 70? 70, yeah. Incredible. I mean, first of all, I want to know what's your secret because you look incredible. Do you know, as an actress, I lied about my age constantly. My agent told me to lie because I was very little and I looked quite young for my age. I could play very young.

23:53So I never said how old I was until I went on to This Morning, where I'm one of their fashion stylists. and it was like someone had taken over my body because the very first time I went out there and Ben Shepard said, oh, we've got Jo and she's middle-aged minx and I went, well, yeah, the trolls say that boat sailed a long time ago. I'm actually 70. And as I said it, I just thought I've told the whole nation, I'm 70. Oh my God, it was the best thing I ever did. Yeah. The amount of attention I got from that, why hadn't I said it when I was 69 or 68 it's amazing and that's how things have changed oh my gosh so what so that key moment oh everything I've this is not me blowing my own trumpet and I can tell you there are fallow moments you know in all careers I have never been as busy I have never had so much work wow in the whole of my career as now it's yeah mental wow and that's because I'm old.

24:55Truly. And again, I mean, thank heavens, because I'm working with people your age. You know, these producers, well, you know in social media, the people who book you are really young, and they just, they obviously see age because I'm there as a box tick. I know that. I'm not an idiot. But they know I've got something to give, you know, something to add. I think it's more the fact that it's so rare, and I think that's the it's the uniqueness of you and obviously diversity in all types of areas and sort of facets are important in any campaign I saw you were a mint velvet icon what an amazing shoot that was Mia Moj, I don't know if you know Mia she and I did Estee Lauder in Paris together and there we were like what are we doing And there she is again, over in shortage doing Mint Velvet.

25:51I mean, with those kids and the crew, they had the music on. And I was like, this would never, even 10 years ago, this would never have happened. Never. It's incredible. It is incredible. And I think that it's definitely almost like pretty privilege. You know, it's your, it's your world card. But I can say to Debbie, your mum, and to yourself, Emily, isn't it wonderful to know there's no cutoff point? You know, they talk about glass ceiling, all this. There is no cutoff point. You can keep going for as long as you want to do it now. And that's extraordinary. Because sometimes you think, when you're my age, what's happened to this world?

26:30And then you think of that, you just think, that is amazing. It is incredible. It is incredible. It's hugely inspiring. All the chapters, they'll just keep going. Yeah. And so with YouTube, what made you start YouTube? How long have you been doing YouTube for? I could bore, why am I not on with Casper Lee? I could bore you about this. When I'm at the BBC and I sit in the newsroom getting ready for my show and I go on about it, they all start to gloss out because they're radio producers, you know, and I, oh, God, I love YouTube. I love it. So I started watching, and you have to stop me or edit all this out because I can go on and on about it.

27:10Because all the reasons I said to you as an actress where you had to do this, you had to jump over these hurdles, the equity card, I started watching Zoella. And I've talked about this before, so I'll be very quick. My agent, who's not, you know, he and I are on this journey together, so he's new to social media. We have such a laugh, saying, oh, my God, this is wonderful. Anyway, he and I, Nigel, his name is, he's a radio presenter's agent. You know, so he presents a lot of really very famous radio presenters and me. And we went out for dinner, he and his wife and I. I remember the restaurant in Covent Garden he said to me you lived in Brighton did you ever meet Zoella did you ever interview Zoella I don't even know who you're on about and you know she's a YouTuber she's extraordinary she's doing really really well this would have been when she was like 18 or 19 I suppose so I went home that night and I just watched Zoella applying makeup in her bed sit or wherever she happened to be in Brighton and I lost I went down that rabbit hole I was just watching her and I just thought she's so watchable I'm just watching a kid wearing stuff I would never buy never wear but oh my god she's so watchable and and I remember texting my agent saying oh my god I could do this but for an older generation yes and he went do it just do it and then so I had I was doing it on my iPhone just my life in you know I live a very strange life I live a life of an adolescent in the middle of Westminster and it just started to gather momentum really and then I bought a proper Canon G7X which you can't get I'd love to talk to Casper about that You can't get them anymore I was looking for ages You can buy them on eBay for£2 ,000 if you're lucky and someone like me is really not technically very adept so I started to make YouTube and started my own channel but I watch these this is where I'm this is where I lose an audience there are people I watch like I don't know if you follow her everyone I know who's going to hear this is just going to go oh do you follow Lydia Millen yes I do know Lydia Millen is an enigma I followed her she won't mind me talking like this and I would she posted every Monday and every Thursday at five o 'clock wherever I was I must watch this I mean she could be my god no granddaughter um watching Lydia watching her house watching her with her bags what she oh she's just everything yeah everything um and then there are others there are so I have like my five favorites and they're my obsession and it's a science you know this you clocked it before ever it's a science and if you can just crack the code which is constantly changing.

29:58The algorithm, whatever you want to call it, you're in. But it's constantly changing. And also, unlike everything else, so in radio, we have RAJAR, which are our audience figures. They're so disputable. You know, if you get a bad RAJAR, you don't believe them. You just go, well, hang on a moment. Were they listening to me or were they listening to LBC or were they? You know, it's all very flaky. It's in a diary they fill in. YouTube immediately you're told I post 10 o 'clock on a Sunday morning I know by 11 if I've failed or succeeded because they say well done you're doing well or this isn't performing as well as do you know what I mean it's like it's such a science and I love instant reward or instant failure I mean it's it's wonderful do you know what I love about your story and your journey it's the fact that you have taken your core talent which is entertainment and you have transformed across industries and across all of the different mediums i hope i have to no but it's so interesting i mean in the in the sort of marketing world there was well even now there's this whole debate of is it influencer is it creator where do celebrities come into the mix where does the media come into the mix and and it's all kind of converging um but often you know people would talk about influencers as people like zoella or lydia millen who started their career but what you've done is you've taken the traditional media format and adapted that to social and created and defined this age for yourself thank you for saying that because i have actually you've summed it up that's exactly what i've done and what's so interesting is and lydia went my i've met i said now i've met lydia it's be Stormzy.

31:46That's a story you and I were talking about. But I've met her on lots of occasions and she's been to my flat. And I had to redecorate. I was literally in such a state. I just thought, oh my God, I live in this, you know, this tiny flat and she's got this mansion in the middle of the Cotswolds. But they are so introvert. You know, Zoella, Lydia, they're not show-offs at all. They will literally crawl into a wall if you put them into a room full of people yeah whereas i'm just out there yes you know it's because they've never had to do it yes the camera speaks for them yes and it's so they're mainly i mean casper going back to casper i think he's quite an extrovert is he he's a bit of both i'd say yeah i'd say um i'd say he's not necessarily shy or introverted but he's not like the loudest person in the room but he's very easy to talk to yeah so he kind of like me it's a luxury to talk like this i think with casper the interesting thing with him is he pivoted to the business world so he's had to deal with clients which is how i met him um investors staff hiring you know and i think he's sort of adapted more to the normal way of working and i think for majority of creators if your success and your sort of format is being on your own and filming, then that's going to be the environment you're most comfortable in.

33:12But it is true, isn't it? Sometimes you can, because I do a lot of panels and industry talks, and getting someone who can talk and speak really well is almost like a requirement in itself because it's difficult, just because it's not natural to people if they're not doing that all the time. No, not with a live audience. And what was the pivotal moment for you with YouTube? Do you feel like it was a quick turn in terms of starting out to growing? Or do you feel like it's something that happened over time? Oh, my gosh. It's still, it's taking so long. It's taking really, you know, how long have I been doing it?

33:48Five, six years. It's taking, I still haven't got to my 100 ,000. I'm at 80 ,000. And I beg, I'm now begging. It's really humiliating. I beg them to get everyone to subscribe because I just want that silver plaque on my wall. It's so ridiculous. You'll get there. I can't have them. Will I? I keep saying to them, I'm going to be in a care home before I have that. But I, it's, it's, you work now. So, you know, the Zoellas, the Lydias, they'll all say to you, it was so much easier for them because they weren't competing against many. You have to work for every subscriber. They're like gold dust, you know.

34:26So was there a pivotal moment? No. It's just that slow climb. Even, you know, when I went on this morning and Ben and Kat on my very first, it's so interesting, it's on my very first appearance on this morning, ran a clip from my YouTube and gave the handle and everything. I thought, I'm going to go back in that dressing room. I'm going to reach that. It's not because it's a different audience. It's a completely different audience. So you have to know your audience. you know the I think that this morning viewer is not a youtuber fan Instagram or TikTok I really don't think so yeah and in terms of your audience are you finding that it's cross-generational or is it I'm a gay icon for men love that um and yes so my stats are 40 plus but I had a few in the 20s which is so interesting probably children of my followers um but yeah 40 plus updates it's massive which is so interesting and I love the fact you know you know where they live I mean it's so interesting getting the stats yeah well the cities they live in the cities they live in yeah yeah sorry if I terrify everyone they undersubscribe no but the cities they live in it's so interesting yeah hi my loves just a quick pause to say if you're enjoying Wish I Knew please please please hit the subscribe button and leave a quick rating or review it really makes such a difference to the show and helps us to keep bringing you amazing guests and stories now let's get back to the episode I think with you though so we spoke a little bit before about my mom and she's she's a lot of airtime on this podcast um but uh the interesting thing with my mom is um and she won't mind me talking about this she went through a divorce her second divorce um I think two or three years ago and was completely heartbroken and felt that she really lost herself in that process and she had to buy her first flat by herself she had never owned a property she'd never paid a bill she'd never um lived by herself because she probably like most women I mean she's turning 60 this year um she probably like most women her of her age met my dad moved in with my dad at 2021 got married had my sister straight away and then you know didn't work for 20 years um then remarried you know shortly after that but never had that alone time or that sense of independence and so through that process of rediscovering herself she discovered you and she to this day looks forward to your weekly sunday vlogs because that has really, it's helped her because she's got someone that she can see on the other side because you also have been divorced, right?

37:24But also just showing how fabulous your life can be by truly being yourself and having that self-confidence and that self-worth and independence. It's so interesting because I always try to answer the comments under my videos and that is a comment I get so many times from divorced women, widows, women who've, like myself, chosen to be child-free, who say, you know, I wish I could have your life. And you know, it's never that, God, my life is, you know, I'm working and I can't afford to take my foot off the throttle to keep the lifestyle I've now become accustomed to. I come from a very working class background you know I've not inherited never will inherit um but was given a lot of love and probably you know the love that gave me the confidence that I've had but I can only say to Debbie and to all and I'm not dissing people who are happily married it doesn't compare there is no compromise there is no you know I go on yoga retreats with groups of women some are single some are still in and the late night chat with the women who are still married doesn't compare to those of us who are not who are living single lives with no compromise no compromise and it's with Debbie it's a choice she can have a partner when she wants one now literally that it's when she chooses to have one and on what terms she's going to have them because there's nothing more attractive than an independent single woman enjoying her life.

39:07It's like a magnet to men, if it's men that she's interested in. It's like a magnet. And she had to get to that stage. And of course, you know, I'm speaking in cliches, but the end of a marriage is a death. It's a death. Whoever ends it, it's horrible. And you can have amicable or whatever, but it's a death and you need to grieve. but then when you've come through it and she's got all everything is in her favor yes you know who she decides to cook for sleep next to go out with it's all on her terms and to never live a compromise this is what i go to hotels on my own and i go back to the hotels i went to when i was in a relationship this seems really weird because i've been in hotels you know there's nothing worse than a romantic weekend away if you're not getting on it's horrible yes and you think oh my god this is like we've got a four-poster bed.

39:58We've got a spa. A lovely bath. A lovely bath. A dinner where we sit facing each other and we're just not getting on. And I go back on my own now with my dog and I love it. And I sit and look at all the couples who are not getting on. And I think they've said it all. They've got nothing left to say to each other. They're just eating their dinner. Sorry, it sounds so bitter. I'm not at all bitter. But I'm just saying, living a life without compromise is wonderful. it's like saying that the it's far better to be happy on your own than miserable with the wrong person oh my god totally absolutely because there is literally a quick fix to being um lonely on your own quick fix get out there get a train into the city walk around walking around people is wonderful even if you don't know them all then go back or whatever but if you're in a relationship or with someone trying to disentangle yourself from that is painful.

40:56What advice would you give to someone who's perhaps in a relationship and not feeling fulfilled? Just get out. For all the reasons, I mean, we've all been there. It's like having that protection of someone sharing the bills, let alone paying the bills. Someone who works, I know this sounds so sexist, but someone who works the SAT level. You know, my generation, we're pretty incapable of certain things, truly, of DIY and all this stuff. It's just our generation. We have men to do it for us. Yeah. And that is, you know, it's awful when you're having to put up paintings on your own. But it's just, you know, get over that and just disentangle it because it's, again, it's so difficult not to speak in cliches, but life is so short.

41:44and the joy of coming back to a flat on your own. I mean, I do think you need a pet. I think everyone should have a heartbeat other than their self in there. But that's, I could never now, at the end of a day like I have, come back and say, have you had a nice day, dear? Because I couldn't give a toss. I just want to be on my own. Watch Netflix, watch YouTube. Get into a bed that's my bed. Not have to watch film that you don't watch. I have to watch films that aren't, you know, or get in a bathroom in someone else's bed. I just, it's the best way to live. Yes. I don't think, I talk about this on air and they always tell me to shut up.

42:27I don't think we're meant to mate for life. Yeah. I certainly don't think we're meant to live together for years and years and years under the same roof. I just think it's impossible. Well, we're now seeing lots of people living separately. So sexy. Yeah. So sexy. I think it was Gwyneth Paltrow that made it very cool, but it was quite controversial at the time. Very controversial. Everyone going, what's going on in that marriage? It's obviously expensive to live apart, but God, I think it's so sexy. Yeah. The perfect way to live. And we're seeing now that more and more people are deciding not to have children.