Riyadh Khalaf on Coming Out, Drag & Choosing the Version That Stays

0:00Welcome to Wish I Knew. I'm Emily Trinouth and this is the podcast where we explore the lessons, pivots and defining moments that shape who we become. Now today's guest is someone whose story is full of heart, courage and creativity, Riyad Keller. It feels like a really full circle moment because he's actually interviewed me twice before and now I finally get to turn the mic around and interview him which feels incredible and surreal at the same time. Riyad has spent over a decade building an incredible career from YouTube and broadcasting to writing, presenting and even interviewing global icons like Richard Branson and Bill Gates.

0:37But what I love the most about his story isn't just the career milestones, it's his honesty, his humour and his ability to show up really and truly as himself. In this episode we talk about finding life's purpose, the power of saying no and what it really means to be unapologetically yourself. We also explore his journey of coming out, building confidence through creativity and drag performing and how he's learned to live with both courage and compassion. It's uplifting, it's honest and it's full of reminders about staying true to who you are and how that is the ultimate version of success. If you enjoy this episode don't forget to follow, like and subscribe to Wish I Knew.

1:14It really really helps the episodes grow and also for us to reach more people like you. So with that let's get into it.

1:29Riyadh Kala. hiya thank you so much for being here i'm so excited to be here because you're interviewing me now i've interviewed you twice twice quite a long time ago actually oh i love this i don't have to even think yeah go ahead ask what you want well the pressure's on for me because i'm hosting the host so no i'm um no i'm very very blessed and thankful to have you here and um it's a real sort of full circle moment I think in my last interview with you I actually said I'm thinking of doing a podcast and I need you to come on and you said yeah yeah yeah that's amazing and then about six years later I find you finally got the call up yeah and what I did I was like she did it yeah no I did never think you wouldn't because you're you're such a go-getter and you're just, you're a brave person generally.

2:21Thank you. But yeah, I was really just happy to come along, see you and have a chat. And I actually really love being interviewed. Yeah. A lot of people that interview for a living hate it. Yeah. I just love it because I get to talk about me. Yeah. It's lovely hearing about someone else, but I got a lot of stuff to say. You do have a lot of stuff to say, so I'm really excited to unpack it all. I love your editor. Yes. Bless him. You have spent over, is it 10 years building on YouTube? 19. 19. Okay, I got that wrong. It's all good. Yeah, I'm 34. Yeah. And I did my first YouTube video, I think, when I was 15.

3:13Wow. Dial-up internet. Yes. which some people will know what that is. Some people won't. We have to actually connect your phone line to get on to the internet. And if mom picks up the phone, you're disconnected. Yes. And yeah, I went on to YouTube because I had this burning, yearning need to broadcast, tell stories, be creative. And I was silent in school for the most part because of bullies. Me, silent. So I was like, and that was a place that I felt safe. Wow. And I found community there before I started creating there in a lot of the American content creators. So I was like, I can do that. Yeah.

3:56And yeah, so it's been, I say 19 or 20 years in media. Yes. Not 19 or 20 years being paid. Wow. That's another conversation. yeah yeah the whole other thing but it's so fascinating i actually um i went back and watched some of your old videos um oh wow yeah we're never going to get the time i just love you even more now to be honest but um it was so refreshing to see and i can imagine that you probably and correct me if i'm wrong but you probably found comfort in expressing yourself because you were so, and you are, so full of personality and life and fun. Did you find that that was that really positive outlet for you?

4:45Yeah. I can remember feeling a physical and mental release from doing the YouTube stuff. Like I felt like, oh, this is where I can play. You know, I would go into school and there was always this very exhausting thing of be you, but not that much. Tone it down. Watch the lisp. Don't have your limp wrists. Don't wear those flared jeans. Put Halle Berry and Sandra Bullock on the door of your locker to trick them. that didn't work um and then you know you go home to the spare bedroom the family computer and your little webcam you close the door and you can just do characters and talk about your passions I mean when I go back to the first videos on my youtube channel the very very first ones there's one that's like the books you'll need to get to do your private pilot's license because I love aviation and the next one is my mom won't let me get a piercing but I'm gonna do it anyway and then the next one is like a story a funny story I heard at a family barbecue yeah so there was no rhyme or reason it was like everything that was swirling around my developing brain yeah I could just throw it onto that canvas and also at that time I didn't know that anyone really would see it particularly not anyone I knew I was just like it goes on to that that thing that makes all the noise yeah and then that's it um but I didn't realize that in that moment on Windows Movie Maker with the I think five euro webcam I was uh like learning the craft that would then become the biggest chunk of my career.

6:54Yeah. And the thing that brings me so much joy and purpose now as a grown-up living in London. Yes. You know, this internet thing has helped me a lot at different stages in life because I've done it, left it, done it, left it, done the traditional media thing, come back online. Yeah. I've always straddled the two. Yes. But I'm just really grateful to my younger self for being extremely, what's the word, just no inhibitions. Yeah, I want to do it. It seems fun. And what do you think younger Riyadh would think if he was to see you today? I think he'd be so excited and amazed. I think he'd cry tears of joy I'm going to cry no I really I think about it a lot actually because I never thought that I'd be happy let alone content let alone proud of myself in every sense professional and personal I I've done a lot of work on myself and I've had some shitty people, you know, come and go.

8:21And I think I just feel like I've got a real, or finally a grasp on the purpose of it all. Not the meaning of life. We'll never know that. But my purpose. God, I'm getting very abstract, aren't I? No, I love it. What I mean is, let me say it clearer just in case. When you grow up kind of hating yourself and wishing that you weren't a natural born target for all of this scary stuff like bullying and abuse and potential, potentially being made homeless. These are the things that go through your head. You don't allow yourself to have the realistic dream that one day you will be happy. You will have a lover or you're worthy of love that you will have a job that you like that anyone will want to hire you.

9:07you just are getting through day by day pushing on, trucking on and then, but you do see other people doing stuff and go, God, that would be amazing so for me, I see Graham Norton, Louis Theroux Oprah Winfrey, Davina McCall some amazing Irish TV presenters like Miriam McCallaghan and I'm like, I wonder and just try it try it you know you have to be here yeah as in alive yeah so that's what it felt like you've got it it's not like life it's like no it's this is a job yes so you might as well give it a go and then the the domino started to fall in the right direction and so that gave me a real like okay okay we're moving we're moving and then you wake up and you're you know in your mid-30s and all this stuff has happened and you're like wow that's beautiful I think often we don't take the time to really reflect on everything in one go I think that especially when you're so busy and doing so much I mean you've done some really incredible things recently in particular I think you know what I'm going to ask you about um that we don't take the time ourselves to like reflect on that necessarily?

10:30I reflect too much. Oh really? I do it every day. Yeah. I don't know why. Do you journal or? No no I find that really boring and I like I know it all as in I'm obsessed with the thought process of it. Yeah. I'm all I feel like in my head I've got a little documentary that's going right and the documentary is never over it's just it's a very slow long one and i and and then you're like oh and then that happened to him and then he did that and and i'm like watching it it's very like outer body yes and i have talked to my therapist about it apparently um it's called um damn it he'll hate me because i forgot it oh there's a word for it um but apparently it's like yeah you're looking at yourself from over here and it can be a good thing yes if it's not all the time um but basically i i get a huge amount of motivation from thinking about the journey i know that's so like cringe the j word it's not it's not cringe at all but yeah like i i love i i love thinking about the pirate radio station that I begged my parents to allow me to have in our attic where, you know, my dad got on onto the roof of our house and put an antenna there when I was, you know, doing the YouTube stuff 15, 16.

11:59Yeah. Come home from school, homework. Yeah. Fire up the transmitter. It's the Hook FM with DJRK. And so, you know, I'm on the airwaves and I was getting such a thrill. I'd say, Dad, Dad, when you're coming home from work, put on 100.1 FM and call me immediately when you pick up my signals so I know how far we got. And you do it every day. Wow. And depending on the humidity, temperature, wind, he would pick me up really not that far from home or really far from home. And we'd both be like, that's so cool. What do you want to hear? And so all of those thoughts imagine me thinking about that boy in his bedroom geeking out over this and then a decade or so later he's standing in a Radio 1 studio doing a show on the BBC the holy grail of global radio that place is and then you're going how?

13:05what? yeah so I never look at it as a aren't I just swell I'm a mate no never I can't I'm Irish they literally don't let you it's more of a I want to bleed every little drop of joy contentment appreciation and gratitude out of life as possible and I can feel the rush of dopamine and even goosebumps right now thinking about With the that and then that. Yeah. Because it's so unlikely. Yes. But it's like, no, you did it. Come on. So I love when people can maybe do that and not be gloaty. Just go, yay. But I think it radiates from you. I was actually thinking about, on the way here, what I would describe you as.

14:03And I feel like, yeah, I know. I don't know. Many things. Sex symbol, iPods, Duck Dad. Duck Dad. I don't know why I'm American all of a sudden, but yeah, I do that too. No, I was actually thinking you are like sunshine in a person. Oh, what? Yeah. I don't know why. You're the only, like, I've never said that about anyone before. Jeez. Emily, that is so nice. Thanks. I'll take that when I'm feeling shit. I'm not always I love people who are kind of excited about life and want to do stuff you know like you with this podcast you're like why not and you know there's going to be a sense of fear in you that people will look at it and go another podcast or why does she think that she's the one to do it.

15:06Yeah. All of these things. That sound is crap. Look at her makeup. All of these things. Sorry, I don't mean to like give you anxiety. But these are the things that we think. Yes. But you're doing it anyway. Yeah. And that excites me and makes me, even on three hours sleep, late night editor over here, it makes me come alive. Yeah. I don't feel tired anymore. I love it. Because, you know, we're buzzed up about stuff. yeah I'm in a good place right now and I wasn't always able to say that so I'm trying to just like feel it exude it put it out receive it and not think too far in the future that was always my problem what's the five year plan what's the ten year plan what's that going to lead to I'm like oh I love getting older now because I'm like whatever yeah whatever I'm just gonna can I just have a bit of fun yeah can I can I have fun and make it a bit a bit of money like not even loads just enough loads would be lovely don't get me wrong but it's not like oh if I don't get that gig or if I don't get that boyfriend or that paycheck I won't allow myself to be happy what?

16:33no no no I'm choosing to have a good fucking time sorry for the swearing no you can swear and good fucking time no so that comes in many shapes and sizes and prices for example last night because I'm lucky enough that I can. I bought a lovely exotic rare fish on the internet for£80. Yep. At five in the morning. Wow. In bed. Because why not? And I tell you, I'm so excited. Yeah. I can't stop thinking about it. I'm naming them in my head. I've been, I've had pictures of the actual, my little guy. Wow. And those little things are like that. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to plant a rare tomato.

17:36Everything's rare. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go out there and feed the geese by hand and enjoy it. I know I've got to do emails and stuff today, but, you know, no one's going to die. Yeah. I have to be happy. I think a lot of us have lost touch with the purpose and meaning of it all, right? Yeah. Would you say you're quite spiritual? Oh, hmm. Depends on what the meaning of that is. I'm not religious at all. I was brought up in a mixed Catholic Muslim household. Dad was Muslim, mom was Catholic. And I use past tense because they both relinquished their faith after I came out. So I've turned them into pagans.

18:25Wow. Very proud of that. No, they basically thought, how can we in good faith, pardon the pun, stick with what we're hearing, which is so anti what our son is. they were hearing all this stuff about being gay is wrong being gay is sick it's an abomination go to conversion therapy and so they they i think both of them probably never fully believed it was more cultural expectation tradition yeah and so when they said that i was like oh i was gonna say thank god thank whatever yeah uh thank family yes and now we're i guess we would say we're humanists we're very about love and science and the the kind of like can we as a human species put more good out than we're taking you know and uh and all of our family sort of like key events the weddings and funerals and all of that burps are all done with the humanist celebrant and they're they're just lovely yeah they're very very very fun um so but when when you say spiritual i would say now that i think about it i am yeah i'm i'm very spiritual but my god is the natural world yeah a hundred percent i feel i feel uh like an an almightyness when i'm next to a big ancient oak tree.

20:03Wow. Like, this sounds really woo-woo. I'm just warning. I'm here for it. I love the woo-woo. I've nearly cried looking at a tree recently. Wow. Which one? It was in Richmond Park. I thought you'd go to Richmond Park, actually. I think I saw it from your content. I thought, hmm, I think he's in Richmond Park. Not to expect you. I highly recommend it. Sorry, you're blocking the camera. It's a force of habit. Hey, guys, like and subscribe. Thanks. so like circa 2000 yeah when you feel the majesty of nature the just amazing interconnected giant beautiful vital unbelievable ness of the natural world you just want to cry you want to be in it not leave it ever and just weep and touch trees with consent you know I don't know why I resisted it for so long I was always since I was a child there's all these little relics of memories from the first memories I have that always showed a natural draw to nature and it was always there but I would always just kind of keep it to me that's not cool that won't get me work that won't keep me fed that won't give me the dream job of being able to tell stories that's David Attenborough's job or that's a straight man's job or you know and I can't I can't ever do anything even if a fraction of that and then life happened I did loads of jobs that I worked decades to get to do.

22:02And then I'm sitting there doing them and I'm like, uh-oh, I don't like it. Or uh-oh, even worse, I'm not good at it. I'm not good at doing pop radio. Oops. And I literally spent decades trying to become like a pop radio host, chart radio. and I was just faking it really enjoying the craft of being a broadcaster but not the I don't care really about new music so anyway long story short the nature thing I feel like I've come home yeah and it's great to go out into it sorry what was that turning moment for you beyond the radio like was there a key moment or sign not to get to uh to go towards nature yeah um a duck a very special duck and it's i found an egg in um in devon while i was doing a shoot uh for the bbc it was just uh end of the day and there was an abandoned egg on on the ground which you never see no loads of People still don't believe me that that was the case.

23:25But I have video evidence and witnesses. It was quite obviously a duck egg and it was kind of near a footpath by a gym in a car park. And there were ducks over there, but they don't have hands. In case you didn't notice, so they can't even if they wanted to move an egg into a nest. I know I knew from, you know, breeding pigeons and chickens that a lot of the time young females will abandon some of their eggs because they're inexperienced or they have a nest somewhere with a full clutch. Right. They can't have any more. So the additionals that their body produces, they just sort of drop around the place.

24:03It's actually a really neat way of nature kind of making sure there's no waste because that egg would have been food for someone. Yeah. Not on my watch. So anyway, I took the egg and did all of the necessary checks with various nature departments and raised it. I hatched it out in an incubator in my bedroom over a month. And this was in London? Yeah. Raised this beautiful male mallard that I named Spike and then found him a gorgeous home with an animal rehabber, they called him, in Norwich where he lives now in a flock. He's got like three girlfriends. Oh my God. He's flying. He's healthy. Hang on.

24:54oh beautiful i am that father i'm gonna show you my kid so he um yeah that duck and the discoveries i made along the way of how much love i can have for an animal i've had cats i've had a dog i've had rabbits i've had tarantulas i've had all sorts but i think because i found him as an egg and watched it go from no life to a tiny heartbeat veins a fetus embryo you know the wrong way around uh i think psychologically physiologically i don't know my body thought i was pregnant And that's what I believe. Because I probably would have hurt somebody if they tried to do something to my duck. Yeah. I would often get waves of really unexplainable emotion after I had to say goodbye to him, just randomly, just start bawling, crying.

25:57so um that that kind of sharing the story of him online and seeing how hurt the world was or not the world but the people that came across my videos about spike people were yearning for wholesome stuff yeah and i was like oh yeah so am i oh and i like i love doing this stuff yeah Best fun I've ever had. Yeah. Okay, let's do that then. So that was my wake up call. Wow. So that egg has changed my life. I've been able to interview some of the most amazing people because I've got a bigger follower count because of the duck. I've been able to work with the Natural History Museum, which is a dream of mine just this week.

26:50Wow. I'm in the process of looking to do a master's in zoology and you become an actual bona fide scientist, not just a hobbyist. You know, it's just like I feel like I've been born again. But as this kind of like guy with, you know, muck on his hands and birds in his back garden and not like with feathers. and just yeah I'm just loving it it's like it's all meant to be totally I feel like I just I feel like we all need to actually do it anytime I go out to feed the geese and clap and come on I notice them recognize me more and more my voice or even my silhouette they see me and they go like that and they start talking to each other and communicating and they do have different calls that mean different things.

27:59Yeah. Warning. Get away from me. Come over to me. Look over there. There's food. Or there's the gay Irish guy with the food. Whatever they say. It's here again. Yeah. And so when you have that connection and you know and they know. Yeah. And they're coming and nibbling your ear. a species that's known for being in Canada known as the cobra chicken, a Canada goose very aggressive, when they come over and gently nibble your ear or your knee to say can I have more and they know your voice well how could you be happier than that moment and it's free so I need people to just drop tools get some waterfowl appropriate food peas or you know something online that's good for them and go out turn the phone off and just analyse them, look at them make a relationship with them and do it a few times and I promise you your life will be better for it you'll come back from that park with a much lighter bounce in your step and with a clearer head it is it is therapy and we don't think we think you know the mums or dads and their kids do it on a Sunday in the park that's cute no you should do it too or go to a sanctuary or dig a hole or whatever you need your version do it one thing I didn't fully appreciate before running my own business was just how much mental energy everyday decisions take when you're spinning a lot of different plates and always thinking a few steps ahead, even the small things can start to feel surprisingly draining.

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30:59So if you're looking for a simple way to support your focus, energy and overall health as you work towards your own goals, you can check out Heights in the link below in the show notes and you can use the code wishinew20 for 20 % off in your first month. That's wishinew20 for 20 % off your first month. I hope you love it just as much as I do. It is true and I think that it's funny these two polar opposites of social media and media in general is an accelerator, right? It's an accelerator for people's careers. It's bringing so many great pieces of information or entertainment that we would never normally discover to our screens and to us daily right so anyone in the world can access a community or an interest or something that is relevant to them in any other part of the world I mean it's incredible but then it's also on the flip side we're finding a lot of people are I suppose recognizing the fact that we're finding joy and contentment and finding a bit more purpose when we put those things away exactly and we're doing the proto-opposite yes and I actually so I have a stepson and he's about to turn five he's gorgeous and um when I'm with him I try and consciously make an effort to not be on my phone yeah and just go and have fun and I think children are similar in the sense of they're so playful I taken to the natural history museum um you're such a good step mom i mean i love children i've got lots of you know i've got a nephew and i've got all my friends have kids so i love it but going out with them and just playing or being imaginative you know they help you check in and lock back into your childlike wonder yes and that's what it's all about because somewhere along the way someone tells you sit down be quiet you're talking too much or it's silly it's silly that's not going to make you money yeah but what about your future and it just slowly slowly chip chip chip away at the lovely wonderful playful soul in you and you become corporate it bland depressed purposeless or maybe just a bit of them you just feel a little bit you got to get it back it could be crafting it could be volunteering it could be i think that the thing is is if you if you can identify the physical response you have to the thing or things that make you feel like a child, do it.

33:58Do more of that thing. Because it won't be always the thing that does it for me with the geese or whatever. And how I explain the feeling is that all of the other thoughts that are going on in your head kind of either slow right down or stop completely for a moment. Your eyes widen. You're just, you have a smile and you don't even realize when it started. You don't want to stop doing it. All of these things. And you just feel centered. You feel better after it than you did before it. And so, yeah. And going back to when you were a child, what do you think your parents wanted you to do? Did they?

34:46Well, you see, I was very lucky that I had parents who I think wanted me to be happy. That's what they wanted. There was never a, you're going to be a doctor. They're not American. No, I did that again. You're going to, you have to be a lawyer. Any of these kind of quote unquote impressive jobs. They just wanted me to be me and happy, which is, wow. I think that's actually now as an adult allowed me to have the confidence to tell myself I can be me because that was always what I was fed. But that came from not a nice experience for them. The reason why they were just happy with my happiness was because they had such a hard childhood and teenage years and young adulthood.

35:43No money. Dad was a refugee. Mom left Ireland because of a recession. You know, they found love in a hopeless place, Earl's Court. And then, you know, it wasn't about status ever for them. It was about survival and love. their currency was their closeness and then they had me and then that just made everything even better not because of me I just heard that because I think the opportunities that they were not ever given for further education you know here's a little financial help from mom or dad or here's a step up in the career ladder. None of that. Both self-made completely. So a lot of stuff they didn't quite get that maybe their peers got to do.

36:42So then they had a child and they're like right we're going to live it through you. But not in a pushy kind of way. In a kind of a collective joy way. So anything that I have done from that size to this size, which is actually not that much higher, if I'm honest. Anyway, triggered. And anything that I've done is always look what we've done. Because it's it's as much their success as mine or as much their failure as mine, as in we kind of we comfort each other or we celebrate. it really is the most gorgeous wholesome balanced sort of dance that we have as parents and child children relationship and where there is no jealousy there is no begrudgery there is no expectation it's just what okay cool what do you think okay I think maybe this right gotcha yeah I love it and it makes me want to have a kid yeah I've got the attention span of a goldfish and I can hardly look after myself but wouldn't it be lovely to give that to a child what I know I've been given which is this gorgeous unconditional love and to watch this little human learn stuff I love when my pet shrimp I love watching them have babies I'm watching the babies graze for the first time or my cats when Luca was a kitten and him figuring out how to climb and then I'm like whoa imagine having a human that must be cool like whoa you're breathing anything you're blinking that's what I'd be like as a dad I'd be so oh you would be a great dad you would be beyond a great dad what if I forget to feed them oh they'll let you know yeah they cry yeah yeah they'll let you know okay I think if anyone's got any eggs going and a uterus yeah actually I may know someone I won't expose them on here but okay maybe great I'll see if I can hook you up thank you and I'm willing to donate out there we go there we go unfortunately i vaporize and i don't know how good they'll be but i'll i'll stop well you've got the great genes oh so well not literally for those listening denim um but going back to your parents what was it like coming out to them for the first time oh you scary very scary and actually given all of what i've said about how bloody brilliant my parents are doesn't that show you just how difficult it is for young queer kids even if all of the signals are telling you that you have it great you're lucky with the parents you have you're still afraid for your life because a lot of the time not all the time you're fed by society this messaging that that ain't that's not good you're not meant to be like that weirdos are like that um or perverts and it's always well maybe it's an age thing but when i was growing up Yeah, you'd have a couple of gay people on TV, but there were caricatures of gay people.

40:35They were being more gay to help entertain straight people. I'll be a clown for you. So you will like me. I'm palatable to you. I am what you expect me to be in return for being allowed to do this job or whatever it is and so that was always a thing for me I was like okay if I'm gay then the only flavour of gay that I can be is the one that's going to be cranking up the flamboyance on purpose even though I am naturally flamboyant and being constantly entertaining. So it's like performative. Constantly, yeah. You're not just someone who wants to be funny. If you're not funny, you might die. You know, you might starve to death because you won't get any work or you might be attacked because of the bullies or whatever or you might be kicked out of your own home if your parents don't accept you.

41:41So imagine all of these big, scary thoughts swirling around the brain of a 13, 14-year-old whilst they're trying to learn algebra and what a Bunsen burner is and play tectonics. Oh, and your body's changing at the same time and your hormones are all over the place. So you're happy, sad, happy, sad, angry, hungry, spotty, happy, sad, happy, sad, oily. So it's just so much. So back to your question. Tangent over. For me, it was always a very, very scary prospect. But thankfully, I say thankfully now in hindsight, not at the time, I was incapable of cloaking my inner queer. Because look. Look where you are now.

42:38I did for a while. You know, the way I moved, the way I talked, the way I dressed, the things I let people know I was interested in. men. I mean, you know, like being friends with the girls, not interested in football, you know, Lady Gaga. Yeah. You know, queen. Yes. That sort of stuff. I couldn't hide it anymore because it was so exhausting. I couldn't get up out of bed in the morning and I was only a teenager. I'll say it again. Because I was so exhausted, I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. You know, even though I was just a teenager. and I felt like I was about you know 85 so yeah I basically came out to my mom she was brilliant but she was sad that she knew that her little fella was holding this thing in and how it must have been tormenting me and then we kind of collectively decided we'd keep that to ourselves for nine months because we were both afraid of what my dad's reaction might be.

43:47Now all the cues and markers of who we know and knew this man to be were that lovely, loving, caring, sensitive, not macho-wacho, funny, all-round likable by pretty much everyone, great with animals, great with kids, I mean the list goes on, right? has his own trauma from childhood so probably will be more empathetic all this but we still maybe we should just so we just put the blinkers on and pretended it didn't happen but mum and I knew and sometimes you know three of us would be watching TV together and gorgeous fella would come on the screen and she'd look at me like this and she'd go and I'd go

44:39not quite that much but you get the picture um and then anyway once again the exhaustion tipped me over the edge and uh eventually came out to dad and he wasn't good he wasn't good initially and it wasn't hate it was pure blind fear from his part about oh no what have i done wrong why it just it was why why why this way and there were tears and there was shouting and there was confusion and there was explaining and then there was non-acceptance of that and and you know the funny thing was even though i could see my dad was so distressed for a moment i was too because of that but very quickly i felt very calm because this huge life consuming dark evil secret that I had was gone I was out of the shadows and I could breathe and even though my my beloved gorgeous father who I adore and adored back then even though he was in that much trauma the weight was such on me that when it was gone, I felt nothing about him.

46:16I was like, that's how traumatized I was. So it was trauma and trauma and trauma for all different reasons. So it was either I'm going to be feeling awful for you to feel good or if I feel good because I'm now out, now you're going to feel awful. We couldn't both feel good. Yeah. So how are we going to fix that? Time, patience, knowing when to step in and speak and educate. and I went to just and so dad has never been a homophobe he's just been in the past afraid of the unknown and afraid of other people's opinions and afraid of his own failings and you know they always say that saying like when people say I'm not racist but I'm not homophobic but it's not like that you know he did have gay friends but it was different when he felt a responsibility for this gay person this little gay person and so yeah about a year passed and over that year it was a very steady and gradual coming together again rebuilding of our relationship anew afresh with a deeper bond with more understanding patience and with an ability for both of us to step out of our own prejudices and to understand the other's perspective yeah really beautiful like it's always about when did your parent decide to be a nice person no no no hang on a minute Yes.