#164 The Chosen Creator: Putting Words in Jesus' Mouth?

25:37Alex O'Connor:That for me was always the most brilliant thing about The Chosen. When it first came out, I remember first watching it. And the Gospels are so fast, so quick-paced. It's so, Jesus did this, then he did this, then he did this. Which is like, it's sort of, I've always thought that kind of helps me believe that maybe this is historical. Because there's like no effort to make it sort of, and then this amazing thing happened and here's the details and you won't believe. It's just sort of like, oh yeah, Jesus did this. I'm just recording what happened. It's so sort of bizarre, but it does mean that you don't really oftentimes feel the timescale, for example.

26:12Alex O'Connor:Jesus is walking around for years doing this, and you can read it in 20 minutes. And so spending that time with the disciples, even just after big events, Jesus leaves and the disciples are still left there, then just sort of talking about it. Like, well, what now? And then they've got to go and make dinner, and then they've got to go to sleep and wake up the next day. It just reminds you that this is supposed to take place over a period of time, which I think is great. But there is a problem with this in terms of timing, which is you've got to construct a chronology. And it's not just in terms of chronology, but the Gospels diverge from each other in various ways.

26:51Alex O'Connor:Some people will say that they contradict each other, and that's a problem. Some people will say they contradict each other, and that's how we know that they're true. Some people try to reconcile them. But there are definitely different approaches here. I've already mentioned slight differences in the things that Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, for example. A big one for me is when the cleansing of the temple happens. This extraordinary scene of Jesus just exploding in the temple and flipping over tables. In synoptic Gospels, this happens near the beginning of his ministry, and in John's Gospel, it happens near the end.

27:23Synoptics meaning me referring to the… The first three.

27:26Alex O'Connor:Yeah, the first three that are sort of reliant on each other. Yeah, relying on each other seem to be more chronological in nature, less poetic, less emotional. I've got that the wrong way around, haven't I? Well, it's Matthew, Mark… No, I mean when the cleansing of the temple happens. Oh, yes. Well, there's… Yeah, so in John's Gospel, and sometimes I confuse which Gospels they come from, but it happens twice. Yeah. Yeah, so I got it wrong. It's actually John's Gospel that has the cleansing of the temple near the beginning and the synoptics which have it nearer the end. And so as a creator, as a storyteller, you've got to make a decision.

28:01Alex O'Connor:Some people try to reconcile this by saying, oh, well, it must have just happened twice. That's why one gospel says it happens at the beginning and one says it happens at the end, because it happened twice. But to depict the scene twice would be quite a sort of bold move of reconciliation of the gospel stories. You make the decision to show it once, to show it at a particular time and to rely on one telling of the story versus another. When you're faced with that kind of stuff, or the fact that, you know, does Jesus say that you can't get divorced or you can't get divorced except in cases of adultery, stuff like that, how do you begin approaching that kind of problem?

28:40Yeah, I tend to look at the Gospels when something is—this is a great example of the cleansing where some people would say it happened twice, I go, well, I'm not sure if it happened twice. It's certainly plausible that it happened twice. But for the purposes of my show, A, that would, yes, be very bold. B, it would be a, and I hate to say it, it's just not great storytelling. Because if I did it first time, because it's the same thing with the feeding of the 5 ,000. There's a feeding of the 4 ,000. There's a feeding of the 5 ,000. Did he do it twice? You know, I don't know for certain. Scholars debate it.

29:25Believing scholars debate it. I know it certainly wouldn't make sense in my show because it would, A, undercut the power of the one time that we portray it. So in the cleansing of the temple, for sure, I believe that it happened closer to the crucifixion. And in our show, it's like that really makes sense as a storytelling device in that it accelerates the resistance that took place during Passover week, right? So having it happen early in that week and then arousing the ire not only of the religious leaders, but some of the people and the vendors that you see in season five of getting upset. Maybe they would have believed in him before, but now he just cost them their livelihoods and he told them that they're all wrong and they're sinners.

30:14And they're like, all right, I hate this guy. So it just makes more sense to me, both in my show and in the biblical narrative. Did it also happen early in his ministry? It's certainly possible. And I'm sure there's, you know, I might have a pastor in my life who'd go, Dallas, of course it happened. I told you that it happened early in the ministry. I'd be like, sorry, but I forgot. But that's how we tend to approach those things, it's not a contradiction of the Gospels by not showing it twice. It would be more of a contradiction of the Gospels, I think, if we, for example, showed it three times.

30:48So that's the thing that I try to—

30:50Alex O'Connor:That would be one way of dealing with it. So that's what I try to— Every day, Jesus just goes in and flips the tables. So that's what's interesting for me as a believer, and what the show has done for me personally, is as a storyteller, I'm tasked with reconciling some of these things. And then it begs the question of like, oh, well, when I was in elementary school or when I was in college as a Bible student, I wasn't thinking of it maybe in the same way that I am now. And so I wasn't asking maybe some of the same questions. And so it's caused me to ask certain questions of my consultants or my own study and going, okay, oh, wow, I never thought of it.

31:28Did it happen twice or did it not? Well, for the purposes of my show, I think we're just going to show it once. But then it also, it causes me when I'm reading the Gospels, because I'm a storyteller, to start making certain connections that I may not have made as a theologian or as a pastor. And I go, oh, it actually makes more sense to me now. Even that Gospel story makes more sense to me now when I consider the cultural context or the historical context or Jesus' intention. So just for one moment, put yourself in Jesus' shoes. he's also maybe telling a story is a wrong way to put it but he also has an intention and so what what what would jesus more likely have done if he's if we know and we believe that jesus is intentionally uh affecting events to cause his death yep right he like that's one of the reasons why we believe he raised Lazarus so close to, you know, around that time.

32:28Because it caused more resistance. Because it accelerated the journey towards his death. I know that he was doing that on purpose, because that was part of the plan, if you believe that, which I do. It also makes sense as a storyteller. And so I go, in many ways, telling the story of Jesus for the purposes of a show has caused me to understand him more too.

32:54Alex O'Connor:Well, some people think that the author of John's gospel kind of does this on purpose, right? Is that like the synoptics have the cleansing of the temple near the end, and this will be part of the reason why he ends up getting arrested. Whereas because John is the only gospel in which we get the story of Lazarus, some people have suggested, well, that's kind of why John relegates the story of the cleansing of the temple to make room for this Lazarus story. some really interesting uh debate there as the extent to which people are willing to say that the author of john's gospel was was willing to like move things around a bit like the date of jesus's death you know to make him the passover lamb and that kind of stuff but i think it's worth noting sort of i suppose in your defense here that if somebody's listening to that and going like well dallas you know clearly like if it if it supposed to have happened twice if that's the only way that you can reconcile the story you should have depicted it twice the gospel authors didn't.

33:47Alex O'Connor:So if you think that it happened twice, and that's the way to reconcile the story, there's still a reason why the authors of the Gospels thought it's only worth including once. At the end of John's Gospel, it says that there are many other things that Jesus did, and all the books in the world couldn't contain them. And I'm sure all the Netflix episodes could not contain the stories of Jesus. And so the Gospel authors are quite clear that we're not showing everything that he did. We're showing a particular select set of things in order to tell you the best kind of story. Yeah, and that's often our response when some people say, why didn't you include this?

34:22And we'll say, well, Matthew didn't. This time we're following Matthew's gospel.

34:26Alex O'Connor:Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. The other challenge it presents, for example, besides the cleansing, is the woman who washes Jesus' feet with her hair. I remember when we were showing that episode, it was a live stream on YouTube, and we portray Mary, the sister of Lazarus, Mary of Bethany, as the one who washes Jesus' feet and causes Judas to react and all that. And there were people in the comments in that moment going, wait a minute, why did you show Mary Bethany doing that? Why not the woman of ill repute? And forgive me, because I'm forgetting which of the Gospels these narratives come from. Because there's one narrative where she washes his feet in the home of this Pharisee.

35:11And then the other, it talks about, and again, I'm not remembering which ones, but it's John who portrays it as Lazarus's sister. And I'm like, well, go read John. Some of the viewers who are believers are forgetting that John's telling of the story is that it was Mary of Bethany, Lazarus's sister.

35:33Alex O'Connor:It's a question for John the Evangelist. It's a question for the author of the fourth gospel, not a question for you. If someone's saying, why are you showing this person doing this? And so I suppose you have this freedom to make a decision as to which depiction to go with, but it's not like you're just sort of spitting it out of thin air, right? Correct. But it might still be—it's still a decision to make, though, right? Oh, 100%. And that's where our consultants come in. I have a New Testament scholar, a Catholic priest, and a Messianic Jewish rabbi, And I'll sometimes say, and I really want, you know, I don't typically make decisions unless we're all kind of on the same page, or at least even if one of them, for example, the Catholic priest, Father David Guffey, who I'm not a Catholic, so more likely I'm going to disagree with him on an interpretation.

36:18But I want it at least to not, I want to avoid a red flag like a, this is so controversial or so contradictory to our beliefs that it's going to cause a lot of heartburn or I can't even endorse the project. I want to know that just in case, you know, if I don't want to make an unnecessary controversial decision. I'm not afraid of controversy, I just don't want it to be unnecessary. So anyway, leaving that aside, that's where I'll come to them and go, what do you think? Do we think it happened twice? Do we think Jesus washed, or a woman washed his feet twice? Or is it just different versions of that story?

36:51And we do end up making a decision, and we are making a choice, and I am saying, yes, this is my interpretation and my portrayal is mine and my alone. And that's why I always stand behind it and don't ask anyone else to. Because even Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus, might have a different interpretation and might, as the actor portraying the character, might go, you know, I serve your vision, Dallas, but this vision might contradict my own. and we try to avoid the big ones, the big, huge contradictions. And there's not actually too many. But yeah, these little decisions oftentimes have, I don't want to say consequences, but they do cause people to think.

37:33And that's where I go, that's great. So go to the Bible and reconcile it for yourself. And that goes back to your very first question, what's the purpose? My purpose is not to write a new gospel. My purpose is not to say, this is the way it happened in every case. It's just to go, this is my interpretation. It's backed by very, very smart, believing scholars who have—we all have very good and reasonable reasons for our choices. But by no means can I claim that my interpretation and my portrayal is or should be the definitive portrayal.

38:09Alex O'Connor:Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back-to-school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus on the show, is a devout Catholic. you're a Protestant. I'm told that sometimes on movie sets, actors will sort of come up to the director and say, you know, I just, I feel like my character just wouldn't say this, you know, or like, I feel like I get your vision, but I, I feel like, you know, I know this character really well.

38:59And I felt like, I imagine that probably happens on this show.

39:03Alex O'Connor:Does it ever happen on a theological basis? Does it ever happen such that you, that Jonathan is made somewhat uncomfortable or is questioning the sort of lack of Catholic spin? And how do you deal with that? And how does he deal with that? That's funny. Given that you've got the final say on this, it's your show. Yeah. And presumably if it was a big enough problem for him, like as a devout Catholic, he'd probably say, you know, I'm not going to do this. Yes. So I would consider it a spectrum. There are moments when Jonathan for sure, and I don't want to speak for him, but I'll just share a couple of general examples where he's like, I'm not sure, but he's not uncomfortable.

39:46He's just, you know, or he'll run it past his consultants, you know, just to say, am I—because yes, if he was going to violate, like, dramatically contradict the character of Jesus, I imagine he would have a hard time doing it and might have to say, I can't, I just can't do this. I can't. We've never gotten to that point. I will say this. In season six, the crucifixion, we had the most of that that we've ever had where he said, there are things—and it wasn't about theology. And this is what's really interesting about it. I had written—my co-writers and I had written Jesus talking on the cross in multiple ways, like somewhat casual.

40:33At one point, he sees one of the characters, is one of the people and makes kind of a lighthearted reference. And so it wasn't a theological issue, but Jonathan was extremely uncomfortable with the notion that Jesus going through that much suffering would be able to say something casual or lighthearted, right? And you'd think that's not a theological issue, but for him it was because it's like he's going through so much suffering. He's going through so much suffering for a reason, right? The suffering is actually part of the theology. So to loosen it, to make it this casual, is a violation of theology in some ways.

41:16And in fact, David Guffey, our Catholic priest, consulted, had similar issues. It was, this is not reverent enough and we believe accurate enough to capture what we believe is a very, very key part, if not the key part of his passion, of his crucifixion. Protestants, I think, are a little less obsessed, passionate—I don't know, I want to use the right word—with the—obviously, the suffering of Jesus is very important to us, but it's a big deal in the Catholic Church. It's kind of like part of the theology. And so Jonathan said, this is the first he actually said to me, He goes, I've never been this uncomfortable.

42:05And so then we just spent hours back and forth. Some of it I already knew. Some of it I was already planning on trimming because I was like, look, I just wanted to see how this felt. But let's cut it. Let's trim it down. And so we finally got to a place where you're both comfortable. And he was a little uncomfortable at times, but went with it and served the vision. there were times when I made an adjustment for his sake that I was I would have done it a little bit differently but I respected his perspective and I felt like I wasn't by making this change I wasn't going to violate my vision of it so those are the kinds of things that occasionally happen but for the most part we were we're in we're in lockstep and and and a lot of his I don't think I should say this art is related to oh just it feels repetitive or it's yeah you know, I think I can say it better.

42:53Alex O'Connor:It's not like a kind of, this betrays my face. Yeah. So that's happened, again, that happened a little bit in season six. I wouldn't say we necessarily, I mean, we did disagree. And I think that's where, again, even though the lines Jesus was saying weren't in themselves inherently doctrinally problematic for Jonathan, it was the fact that he was saying anything at all in that moment that violated his theology. And it didn't violate mine, but I thought, okay, that's fair, that's interesting, and let's try to find a middle ground. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, there's a moment, I can't remember where, where there's sort of reference made to the brothers of Jesus, for example.

43:38Alex O'Connor:That's a good, yeah, that's a... Again, you kind of have to make a decision here. Did Jesus have biological brothers? Right. There's just good biblical reason to think that he did. They're referred to as his brothers. There's a different word for cousins, all that kind of stuff. And yet, if you asked Jonathan Rumi, if you asked him to act in a scene where his biological brother walked in the room, for those who aren't aware, this is a big no-no for Catholics. because Mary is a perpetual virgin. She never has natural children. Of course, nobody else can be miraculously born other than Jesus. So he has to be an only child in their theology.

44:18Alex O'Connor:So if you ask Jonathan to film a scene where he met his biological brother as Jesus— Yeah, that's fascinating. So what I would say is this, and I don't want to speak for Jonathan, I would say that even in the Catholic Church—and this is one of the things I've actually learned that I didn't know before doing the show, is that there's even a variety of emphases and beliefs and doctrines within the Catholic Church. I kind of thought, we Protestants are the ones who have the 150 different denominations, and the Catholics all are uniform in one thing. I've learned that's not the case. Okay, good. I've learned that among the LDS faith, too.

44:54I'm like, oh, there's people who disagree with each other. Wow, that's good to know. So, Jonathan, I don't know exactly where he stands on some of these issues that they don't necessarily believe are sink or swim, heaven or hell, heresy or dogma. Not everything that falls in that category. So, I don't know exactly how Jonathan would react to that. You'd have to ask him. But I would say that I personally believe that Jesus had half-brothers. And I do believe that when the Bible talks about his brothers, again, you can say what the Greek definition of it was. I believe that they were offspring of Mary.

45:39It's not important enough to me, nor was I genuine—and this is genuine. I say this is genuine as though the other person I was saying wasn't. Now I'm going to really be honest with you, Alex. Everything else has been BS. No, but I mean this, that I truly, when we were first coming up with how we were going to approach the stories, I actually said to my co-writers, I'm not really interested in the brothers of Jesus, the family of Jesus, because that's a whole season.

46:07Alex O'Connor:You could do a whole show on the family life of Jesus. I don't want to hint at it or, and then not, it's almost like if his brothers showed up and that for like a moment and then they went away, you'd wonder why you're showing more. So I'm like, I'm going to treat it almost as the gospels treat it, which is we're going to bring them up. We're going to bring the names up. And then you can decide if you believe they were cousins or brothers or not. It's not relevant to the show. And I genuinely just didn't, it's like, I'm just not all that passionate about it. And so, for both theological purposes and storytelling purposes, I just thought it's not, for the purposes of this show, it's not a hallway I want to go down.

46:52But it's a, you've got me thinking how he, how Jonathan would have reacted to something like that, because it's not a line of dialogue that's theologically improper, but it's meeting his brothers, which then leads you into this other theological problem. So, I'm not sure.

47:07Alex O'Connor:Yeah, I mean, there would have to come a point where I think someone like Jonathan, it strikes me that he'd be definitely uncomfortable with it. But I think people just wonder, like, when there are creative differences on set, you know, this is enough to bring productions down in the best of times, let alone when you're dealing with something so sort of personal and so religious. I mean, it's like a different level. So there are so many avenues to consider here, which is also why I think a lot of people are so impressed by the show that given the carefulness that you have to approach it with, given the four different sources that you have to try to compile into a different way, given that your cast and crew are made up of people of all kinds of different beliefs, the fact that it's worked and you've come out with a show that is good and that people enjoy and that is telling the story is really cool, man.

48:00Alex O'Connor:I think it's really, really cool. It's really a—I would say it's partly a mystery to me as to why the show has resonated so strongly with so many different Christian traditions. Yeah. from LDS to Greek Orthodox, to Messianic Jewish, to Orthodox Jewish. I mean, the show is becoming popular in Israel, even among people who don't believe in Jesus, because they're so impressed by the Jewishness of the show, and that I honor and really lean into the Jewishness of Jesus, which oftentimes hasn't been done before. There's a part of me that thinks that my Protestantism is a feature. I don't know that someone who has a specific church affiliation who has to kind of honor his or her church's affiliation, or else they might be in heresy, almost gives me a little bit more freedom and allows me to kind of tell the story in this way that just for whatever reason, And yes, I've seen some Catholics who've been offended by the casualness with which Jesus talks because they see Jesus more reverently and more pious.

49:17But I do think there's kind of a—my Protestant libertarianism approach has, I think, been part of the thing that has allowed it to appeal. Now, again, the critics say, well, yeah, exactly. That's why, you know, it should be more divisive. The gospel should be more divisive. They are divisive. Jesus was divisive. You're too ecumenical. You're trying to appease too many people. I'm not trying to appease too many people. It just happens to be because I do believe I'm focusing not on the theological differences, most of which came 200 years, 300 years, 500 years, 2 ,000 years later. I'm focusing on I'm just telling the story of Jesus.

49:49And interestingly enough, the majority of Christian traditions agree on the historicity of it, the culturalness of it. So it's an interesting thought experiment as to why.

50:00Alex O'Connor:You know, there was something in particular I wanted to ask you about in that you were saying that you don't add anything to the story, that you don't sort of… To the Bible. To the Bible, right? That's what I mean to say, right? And that you wouldn't do anything that contradicts the nature of Jesus or anything like that. There are a couple of occasions watching the show where it seems to me that you've made quite a significant theological decision with regards to Jesus, that you've put words in his mouth that aren't in the Gospels, that are not just like, I mean, I've heard you sometimes say, like, every time Jesus says hello when he walks into a room, you know, that's not in the Gospels.

50:35Alex O'Connor:And that's fair enough. But, you know, and this isn't the example I have in mind, but when Jesus says, I am the law of Moses, and that's not in the Gospels, that's not just like saying hello, right? And I know a lot of people were like, sort of, hold on, that's too significant a thing to have Jesus say without scriptural authority. That must have been a conversation that you had. Because by the way, as I'm sure people, like, I can't be the only person who thinks this, it's just one of the coolest moments, like, cinematically. I loved it. Of the entire series. It is just, like, phenomenal television, right?

51:08Alex O'Connor:And was there a feeling of like, well, Jesus didn't say this, but it works so well on screen that maybe we should just do it. Yeah. Or was there something else going on? Whether it's that or the little James scene or there's moments that, for example, when Rayma was killed in season four. Sorry, if you have to show you. Yeah. So it's like, I was going to make this joke earlier, like you're telling what happens in the series and you're like, oh, spoilers as a joke. But there are actual - Oh, yes. And I probably just gave one away too much because I'm sure there's plenty of viewers who haven't seen the show.

51:40But where the reasons he gives for not raising her, what I think some of these moments qualify under is if he would have said them, it highly likely would have been in the Gospels. That's the thing that I tread most carefully around. You're right. It's not just him saying hello. This is him saying something that he really likely didn't say because if he would have said it, it would have been recorded. And that's where I think the fair-minded critics, the ones who do like the show or are comfortable with my additions, have the most leg to stand on when they do criticize or when they are uncomfortable.

52:32Is this isn't plausible anymore, Dallas, because if it would have happened, it would have been in the Gospels. And I think that's the fairest argument against what I do. I'll say this. I believe Jesus is God. I believe that Jesus was an author with his father of the law of Moses. So to use your example, there's a moment in season three where they're saying, because of the law of Moses, we now have to punish you. And he says, I am the law of Moses. I believe that I'm on solid theological ground because I do believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law of Moses I believe that he's the word he represents the law of Moses I believe I'm on solid theological ground

53:26Alex O'Connor:but you are correct that I'm making a theological statement that Jesus didn't make in the wording that I gave him and that's dangerous And there's like, it's not just about, well, is this true of Jesus? Is it true that he was the law? It's also, would he have said that there and then? Like, for example, if like Jesus early on in the series walked into a room and someone said, who's this? And he said, oh, hello, I'm God incarnate in the flesh, bow down and worship me. I think that would be inappropriate and you get a lot of flack. And you could say, but look, man, I think that Jesus was God in the flesh, incarnate.

54:02Alex O'Connor:That's who I think he was. And people would say, fair enough. But we don't know all of the reasons why Jesus said this at this point and that at that point, why he was unclear here and very clear here. and that I am the law of Moses moment is an extremely provocative it is very Jesus-esque it's the kind of thing that he would say and really annoy people right so I agree and I'm on your side but then again I'm coming at this from someone who is looking at the historical figure of Jesus I think half the things that he said to say in the gospels themselves he probably didn't say in those words so it doesn't trouble me at all right but my critics go of course Alex Yeah, I don't care.

54:41Alex O'Connor:I think it's great TV. You endorsing my show has mixed... Yeah, sorry. I mean, it's very bad and very challenging. I want to become a Christian. I don't like it because it makes me want to become a Christian. Want to be a Christian, yeah. Exactly. I think that's one of the most... But it's such an insightful question and thought, and this is why you're so good at what you do and why you're so brilliant. You are absolutely correct that it raises the question of most of my claim that everything that I'm putting into the show is plausible. And I would say, again, I accept the criticism and think it's fair.

55:20I would say that I'm, in my defense or in my intention, is I'm also trying to capture capital T truth, which I believe comes from the entirety of Scripture. And because I believe that Jesus was both man and God and was part of creating the world, that when Paul was writing some of his letters, some of his theology was coming from inspiration from God the Father and God the Son. Again, we don't need to get into the whole Trinity debate. But so there are times when I acknowledge that I am, I believe, capturing the plausible character of Jesus as God in the entirety of Scripture, as opposed to just Jesus of Nazareth, the historical figure, would he have said this?

56:09The reason I wouldn't include him saying, I'm God incarnate, blah, blah, blah, is because I believe that he intentionally didn't say some of those things. for various reasons that are a whole other podcast. But I do believe I am the law of Moses is the kind of thing Jesus would say that doesn't impact the narrative of the story in the Gospels. The scene with Jesus and little James where I present a theology of suffering and healing that we know Jesus didn't give, or at least it wasn't recorded that he gave that, that I do believe is theologically correct and represents the divine nature of Jesus.

56:59But it does create a unique problem, A, for you as a skeptic or as a non-believer, and for me as someone who continually says, everything we do in the show is plausible. Sometimes it means theologically, holistically plausible, maybe not historically plausible.

57:18Alex O'Connor:Did anybody advise you not to have that line? Like script advisors? Did Jonathan Rumi read it and go like, you know, I'm not sure. Everyone loved it. Because, I mean, as I say, it's great. It's great TV. Yeah, all of my consultants loved it because they did believe that it was theologically, conceptually accurate and the kind of thing Jesus would say. I mean, gosh, my Messianic Jewish rabbi might be his favorite line in the whole show. Because what he's always concerned about is the oftentimes Christian belief that Jesus was getting rid of the Jewish traditions and the Torah and was replacing it with his own theology.

58:00And so when he's endorsing the law of Moses and that he is the embodiment of it, he really loves it.

58:08Alex O'Connor:Yeah, it's a very Matean kind of idea. um you mentioned uh little little john little little james so i keep doing that i keep so one of our actors once uh it's in our blooper reel actually um shahar isaac who plays simon peter in the in a scene called refers to him as little john yeah and because he's thinking little james but there's also john yeah yeah fire tuck and yada so you're okay little james yeah i'm in good company, I suppose. Little James has a disability. He walks with a cane, with a stick. Severe limp, a disfigurement in his back. And there's this scene, invented for the chosen, wherein Jesus sends his disciples out to go and heal people of their ailments.

59:01Alex O'Connor:And I find this extraordinary, because Little James is like, you know well what about me like why haven't you healed me and then jesus says the classic jesus thing where he goes do you want to be healed and this is what he says to people he says do you want to be healed and they say yes and he heals them and he says to little john to little james do you want to be healed and he says yes of course and jesus says no yeah and that to me is such a it's such a bold thing to put on the lips of Jesus. Because, again, even more than the sort of law of Moses thing, because some people debate the extent to which Jesus was healing people.

59:46Alex O'Connor:Was it just the people who came up? Was it everyone around? And not only that, but there then follows this, what would be called in philosophy, a theodicy, which is the attempt to reconcile evil in the world and suffering with the goodness of God. Where Jesus sort of explains, he says, well, think of the story you'll be able to tell. Think of the role that your suffering will serve when you're able to sort of use it in this way. And then Jesus makes a reference to the book of Job Because the same thing kind of happens to Job And in Job we get this sort of idea that maybe there's some reason But even in the book of Job, God never tells Job why he suffered He just tells him, you couldn't possibly understand, right?

1:00:32Alex O'Connor:But in Jesus' sake, even just very briefly, just saying to little James Well, think of what you'll be able to do because of the suffering You're providing a theodicy which itself will be philosophically controversial. And then you're putting it on the lips of Jesus, even though it's something that he didn't say. I think, off the top of my head, of all the things that would most worry me, if I were your advisor, and not that I'd be in a position to be, but you were like, look, I want to make this biblically fair and accurate. I don't want to annoy people. That probably would be the biggest red flag for me.

1:01:04So why?

1:01:06Alex O'Connor:Why even bother? Yeah. Well, it started when the actor, Jordan Walker-Ross, he had auditioned on video from the neck up. Did a good job. I do what's called a callback. So he comes in now, I'm meeting him in person. And he comes walking in abnormally short because of his disability. He's had extreme limp, a disfigurement in his back and leg, one of his legs. and I was like oh and I knew right then and there after he gave another really good audition I talked about this with my wife I'm going if I cast him as little James I knew everything that you're saying right now I'm like I have to address this unless he gets miraculously healed the actor before the first day of filming that would have been something that would have been something or halfway through the show I might have been like no no no just can you wait until the next season I'll make this part of the show So I was like, I am by definition, if I cast him, painting myself into a corner and I have to do something like what you just described.

1:02:08Everything you just said, of course, much more brilliant than I could have said it. But I had to address, I'm like, I'm going to have to face this because obviously little James is going to ask Jesus at some point. You're healing everybody else. Why not me? And in the Gospels, there is not a record of someone asking Jesus personally for healing and not receiving it. Now, I and my scholars do believe that there were moments when he didn't heal people, such as he had an opportunity to stop by this city. He didn't do it. There's a range of beliefs on, as you just said, on whether Jesus healed everybody.

1:02:45I know a pastor, a very prominent one, who believes that there were no hospitals—hospitals were basically rendered useless during those three years of his ministry. I don't share that belief. People died, of course, all around him. Jesus attended funerals, I believe. So clearly, I don't believe he healed everybody. But there isn't an instance in Scripture where he's asked for it and he denies it. So yes, very dangerous, worrisome for sure, but this is again falls under that category of the theology of suffering throughout the course of scripture and throughout the course of humanity, I believe is reconcilable.

1:03:22Not only does, you mentioned that God doesn't necessarily tell Job why he's suffering, but Paul and Peter both address things like suffering after Jesus was here. So when Peter is saying things like these trials and tribulations strengthen us, and Paul is talking about the thorn in his flesh that he's asked Jesus to remove, Paul talks about suffering, the book of James talks about suffering. These are all people who either had encountered Jesus or, in the nature of Paul, who didn't encounter him in person but clearly had some sort of significant religious experience, spiritual experience, and claimed inspiration from God that I believe is true.

1:04:09I believe that I was on solid theological ground. But again, it does fall under the category of, would Jesus have said that?

1:04:18Alex O'Connor:Well, Jesus says, but think of the story that you have, speaking to little James here, especially in this journey to come, if I don't heal you. Right. To know how to proclaim that you still praise God in spite of this. To know how to focus on all that matters so much more than the body. To show that you can still be patient with your suffering here on earth, because you know you'll spend an eternity with no suffering. And like, this is the kind of thing that people say today to people who are suffering, like maybe there's a reason for it. But like, that's a very particular view of suffering. You know, some people take the view that evil is a privation of good and it's a result of sin and the fall.

1:05:01Alex O'Connor:And some people think like all kinds of stuff. like the view, this sort of functional account of suffering, that suffering exists because it serves some higher order purpose, is a view that some people hold, but it's a view that other people think is like philosophically bunk and ridiculous. And you've put that in the mouth of God himself, right? And that is quite a moment. I understand it's a little bit weird having a character with a disability and not addressing it but maybe that was that ever like an option for you just to think well we'll just we'll just not address it because the thing that's really weird for me yeah is that he's sending him out to heal yes implying that like what little james like doesn't have the power to heal himself or he couldn't like you know i i like the idea of him sort of jesus saying no and he's like okay okay fine and then he like runs over to peter Peter, Peter, heal me, heal me.

1:05:58Because why not?

1:06:02Alex O'Connor:It opens all these questions. If Jesus has given people the power, his disciples the power to heal, if little James went to Simon Peter and said, please heal me, Simon Peter doesn't know that Jesus had this conversation with him. So would he try and be like, oh, I can't for some reason? And that would imply that Jesus is somehow literally like preventing it from happening, which seems like we're on very, very delicate ground there when you're saying that - I have to admit, I have to freely admit, I didn't consider Peter out on his two by two coming across little James. You know what? While I'm on the - Exactly.

1:06:39This is clearly working. Let me heal you. That's a fascinating -

1:06:44Alex O'Connor:Yeah, because if the view is that, or just whoever James was with, if the view is that that person unknowingly would just try to heal James and having the power to do so should be able to do so, but God would have to sort of intervene and stop it. You've just opened the door to putting in the mouth of Jesus, the view that if you try to heal this guy, I am going to stop that. I'm going to stop that from happening, which that is profound, right? That's a big thing to do. It makes me wonder whether it was worth the difficulty of addressing it at all. Yeah. So I have a long answer to your question, I'm just going to have to ask for your patience with it.

1:07:26I hope it'll be interesting, but it's so important. And again, I want to compliment you on your insight, because this really does bring up cosmically significant questions. So I'll first start by saying, to make it clear, little James in the Gospels was not handicapped, almost assuredly. The decision to do this came when I decided to cast George. To escape the conundrum and the problem that you are very articulately communicating and that I absolutely faced would have just been to cast someone different and to not put him in the show. So, the real question is, why did you cast him? And then why did you then choose to portray this?

1:08:15Which, as you've said, if Jesus would have said this out of his mouth, it almost assuredly would have been in the Gospels. So this is where it comes to why I even believe what I believe. So I do believe Jesus is God. I do believe that the Bible is God's inspired word. So I do believe, and I don't think that I could have had that seen if I wasn't a believer, because if I don't believe that suffering, that the theology of suffering and healing and sometimes not healing, if I didn't believe that it's reconcilable by, A, the Bible, by my own personal experience, by people such as, I don't know if you know, there's people like Nick V, a famous Australian who has no arms and no legs.

1:09:03Oh, yeah, yeah. And is a very well-known evangelist. Yeah. Johnny Erickson Tada is a very famous Christian teacher and author who was paralyzed as a teenager in an accident and has never been healed. lives in fairly consistent pain. They talk about this all the time. They have tremendous faith. And there are many Christians who were uncomfortable with the scene because they said, no, Jesus healed everybody, and Jesus still heals today. And if you're not healed, it's because you don't have enough faith. So I don't believe that because I look at the totality of Scripture, which I believe was inspired, and I see the Apostle Paul, the Apostle Peter, sharing this theology of suffering and pain, and then, of course, the author of the book of James saying similar things.

1:10:01So, that's how I reconcile it and believe that I'm on solid ground theologically when Jesus says it. But I don't know that I could have done it if I didn't believe that, Because then, to your point, I'm putting words in Jesus' mouth that can only be reconciled by past and future, meaning past before the gospel, before first century and afterwards. And so that is where I have to unapologetically say that, yeah, this was a theological perspective that I have, and I'm going to stand behind it, and I'm going to put it in a show. And that's where I'd also say the difference between the show and the Bible is that the show might not always be factually true, but I hope that it captures capital T truth, the totality of Scripture.

1:11:00So it's why, you know, when you say, if Peter did have the ability to heal and tried to heal little James, God's preventing it, that brings up a whole other huge issue of, what about today? if we believe, as I do, and have even seen some people be healed of some malady, when someone isn't, and a person who has healed someone previously goes to heal this other person, is God stepping in and preventing it? Or is this part of his overall plan from the beginning of time, and God lives outside the economy of time and space, which is why a day is a thousand years, I mean, you've done entire episodes just on this exact issue.

1:11:47And I have studied in college entire courses on this exact issue. So I'm not going to be able to solve it right now, and a YouTube comment in response to me is not going to solve it either. But it's very fascinating that you're bringing up from one scene in the show, I think, extraordinarily important and significant theological questions. So all I can do is say, I believe this. I believe it's plausible. I believe that I'm on solid theological ground. But I also acknowledge that at the end of the day, you still have to read the Bible versus my show if you're looking for what I believe. Like, even I, as a fan of my show, say, if you're struggling, go to the Bible, go to your pastor, go to, you know, don't rely on the show as the sole source of your theology.

1:12:35I'll close with this. There are thousands of people all over the world who have reached out to us or have met me in person and said that that scene.

1:12:49Alex O'Connor:Hey, Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local croc store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today.

1:13:21illuminated for them something that they had previously not. Like, I've had people say to me, I've been suffering for 25 years, and the questions I always ask, or the answers I always get back are, well, you just need to have more faith, or God just, you know, God is teaching you something, you know, all of these somewhat pat answers, and they say, that scene, for me, unlocked or cracked a code that I hadn't previously been able to understand. Now, in a vacuum, that's a problem. If the show is solely responsible for their theological understanding, that's a problem, because I don't believe that the show should be.

1:14:00But fortunately, I believe the show is illuminating a truth that I believe already exists in Scripture that some people just maybe don't understand or haven't fully reconciled. And again, someone like yourself. I haven't seen enough of your content to know how you ask or think of the problem of evil. I've seen other episodes of yours, but the problem of evil, the problem of suffering is one of the biggest impediments to people believing, and also for those of us who believe sometimes is one of the most comforting. Yeah.

1:14:34Alex O'Connor:I suppose it's conspicuous that Jesus doesn't directly address it for that reason, in the Gospels, I mean. And it's one of those things where you think if something is so important and so significant, and yet Jesus doesn't talk about it, it seems like maybe there was a reason why he didn't talk about it. There might have been an intentional omission of this from the ministry for all kinds of reasons. Yeah, I think the one exception to that would be that he does address the issue of belief, and he does talk, and I'm not going to give exact scriptural references, because I can't remember the exact verse, but he will talk about things like, in order to believe, you have to see a sign.

1:15:20Yeah.

1:15:50of the world is intending for this person to believe for different reasons. He doesn't want to always, you know, you shouldn't always just need a miracle in order to believe. And so he's going to reveal himself to you in different ways. Again, these are all significant issues that are addressed in entire podcast episodes separately. But I would say he's, I don't think he's silent on the issue of miracles or belief or a miracle as a means to cause someone to believe.

1:16:19Alex O'Connor:I mean, the problem of evil in particular. There's no sort of, verily I say unto you, the reason that suffering exists is because it allows us to achieve higher order goods that are conceptually parasitic on lower order suffering. That's not how Jesus operates. He didn't say that, no. Again, I would say the suffering he did experience for the purposes of, you know, when you read Isaiah and say by his wounds we are healed, and if you believe as I do that that's referring to Jesus, then Jesus is exhibiting, if not outright saying explicitly, he is exhibiting the scriptural truth and the theology of suffering and pain and what the reasons could be for that.

1:17:05But yeah, you are correct that the gospel accounts don't have Jesus making it easy by just saying it like maybe I did in the show with Little James.

1:17:15Alex O'Connor:It's not just about the words that the characters say in The Chosen that provide this difficult challenge as to how to present a person or character. It's also personality, it's context, it's motivations for particular behaviors that aren't made explicit in the Bible, and the most interesting and obvious of these to me is the character of Judas Iscariot, who is a brilliantly developed character in your show. Again, in terms of storytelling, I mean, he's such a compelling character and you sort of follow this thread. And it also helps you to understand why people were upset about Jesus, what kind of Messiah they might have been expecting and how that was not fulfilled.

1:17:59Alex O'Connor:And the Gospels are a little bit unclear on why Judas betrays Jesus. Like in some of the Gospels, it seems to be straight up just money. Like in Mark and Matthew, Judas just takes some money and he does it for that reason. In one, it's specified that it's 30 pieces of silver. Yeah, they mentioned that that's what happened. I don't know that they say he betrayed him because he wanted 30 pieces of silver. Exactly, right. That was the entire reason. And by the time you get to Luke's Gospel, you get this idea of Satan entering Judas, which is this sort of sense of chill down his mind a little bit, right?

1:18:38Alex O'Connor:And the same thing in John's Gospel. And you depict this, the moment of handing over the bit of bread to indicate that that's who it's going to be. And Jesus, in the full knowledge, Satan enters him at that moment. And he says, what you're going to do, go and do quickly kind of thing. So there's this sort of difference. But the other thing about Judas and why he's so interesting is that people always debate like, is this a man who's in hell? Is this a man who's in heaven? Is this a man who is evil? Is this a troubled soul who just like the rest of us fell short and sinned? In Matthew's gospel, Judas repents before he kills himself.

1:19:17Alex O'Connor:And yet the gospels also have Jesus saying that it would be better for the person who betrayed the son of man that he were never born. You have to make a decision here. Is Judas this evil, malicious, demon-infested man who betrays Jesus? Or is he this sort of understandable man who went wrong? There is a fear that in modern cinema and television, we humanize villains too much. It's like the Joker thing, where it's definitely true of human psychology that people are complicated. But for some people, something like the Joker, it seems to rationalize murderous behavior. It sort of begins to dissolve this right and wrong, which some people are a little bit scared of.

1:20:05Alex O'Connor:And in the story of Jesus, that seems really important. So just tell me how you even begin approaching a character like him. So, I think the simplest belief, which you can draw from the Gospels, of Jesus knew he would do this. The Gospels say that, that he knew at the beginning of his ministry that one would betray him. I do believe that. Satan entered into him during Passover week and had a bit of a puppet master thing. I mean, I think that that's true. I think that there was a demonic influence on Jesus—sorry, on Judas. Please don't pull that clip out. A demonic influence on Judas. And everything in between.

1:20:54I don't think that Passover week, Judas went from all in on Jesus to all of a sudden, Satan entered him and he went, boom, he was going this way and then he turned the other way. There are people who believe that, And I have even, there's multiple people who comment all the time, they never, they like the show, but they hate my portrayal of Judas because they're like, he was evil. Jesus knew he was evil. John says he was greedy. He was selfish. He was greedy. I just don't find that the totality of Scripture, the totality of the historical accounts, the totality of human common sense, when you, you know, and this goes to how I interpret Scripture.

1:21:36um i the reason that i believe scripture is true isn't because i can reconcile every single thing that i read in it it's because um as uh i'm forgetting his first name his last name is wallace he's the the detective um who does a lot of apologist uh teaching and forgive me for not remembering his first name but he talks about how as a as a homicide detective he rarely has all the pieces of the puzzle yeah sure but he has let's say he has 97 out of 100 well the conspiracy theorists or the skeptics or the people who aren't willing to accept the reasonable doubts go, they're going to focus on those three missing pieces.

1:22:11I go, I don't have the pieces of, was Judas someone who believed that Jesus would be a conquering Messiah, and therefore his disappointment led him to want to betray him and force the issue, which is how we portray it.

1:22:31We there's some selfishness. Yes, there's some demonic influence. Yes, there's also some God-directed predestination of, you know, Jesus is going to die, and here's how—these are some of the chess pieces that are going to be moved to make that happen, and Judas is one of them. All of that, I believe. Then I'm left with, okay, for three years, he was one of Jesus's closest 12 followers, clearly a dear friend, participated in healing, participated in—not only saw Jesus do it, but according to the gospel accounts and my beliefs, did it as well. It's not rational to me that he just—30 pieces of silver, which is the equivalent of what a month's wages or something like that, or a slave wage, the price of a slave, maybe it's four months wages, something like that, that that that that's the sole reason he did it he just wanted more money and this was the best way to get it uh so then that is the my task in doing this show in going all right how am i going to fill in these gaps so i use a combination of uh historical and cultural context the jews we know believe jesus would be a soldier king yeah that he would conquer the the romans that he would

1:23:48Alex O'Connor:overcome that he would overcome that the messiah would be this yeah the messiah would be the right thank you and so it's it's uh it's plausible that some people believe judas was a what it was previously a zealot yeah um i i don't know that and yeah there's a theory i think it's got to do with the name iscariot which we don't know what iscariot means but it sounds kind of like well i think it means of cariot that's how we yeah because that's one idea is that there's just like like with so many people it's a place name but some people i think this is very dubious but I remember Bart Ehrman telling me that there was this group of people, I think, called the Sicari-y.

1:24:25Alex O'Connor:Yes, Sicari. Yeah, yeah, who are kind of zealot? That's how we portray Simon Z in the show. Yeah, he's a Sicari, right? Yeah, and then he was a member of this group, this almost cult-like group that believed passionately, even more so than everyone else. Yeah, of the overthrow of Rome. The overthrow of Rome and that the Messiah would be the—and that if he's not to this, if he's not the overthrow of Rome, then he's clearly not the Messiah. And they were just as passionate as Romans were towards false messiahs who would get the people aroused because they were like, false messiahs are blasphemers and evil and they were just as passionate as the Romans were.

1:25:11And so were some of the religious leaders. All that to say—

1:25:14Alex O'Connor:So some people think that Judas, there was this idea that Judas was at least from a line of people involved there because they think there might be some like etymological link between Iscariot and Sicari. So there are all kinds of theories, but we don't know which is the key. But we do know that with very few exceptions, I imagine, the overwhelming majority of Jewish people at that time believed Jesus, that the Messiah would be a conquering king. And I believe the apostles believed that all the way up until his resurrection, if not his, even his ascension. Even before his ascension, they're saying, are you going to, now are you going to restore the lost kingdom?

1:25:53Or now are you going to overcome the oppressors, right? So they—probably until the Holy Spirit came and launched their ministry, they believed at any point the Messiah was going to overcome the oppressors. So when I take that knowledge and I take the fact that Judas betrayed Jesus for so little money, considering the stakes involved, and that he felt so guilty—I'm not sure. You mentioned Matthew has him as repenting before. I confess I don't remember exactly how he portrays what Judas said before his death. So some of the scholars who are wishing I would have corrected you or not, I just don't remember.

1:26:39That said, did he repent before? Whatever. All we do know is he felt supremely guilty. The moment that Jesus was sentenced to death, Judas felt guilty. And so because of that, I am able to decipher, plausibly at least, that Judas was trying to force the issue. And that's how we portray it. We portray Judas as trying to, like, he's making a bet. He's like, if I can fast track this, Jesus will, if I betray him and he's the Messiah, he will get through it anyway.

1:27:20Alex O'Connor:Yeah. He'll overcome, this won't work. Yeah, yeah. And that way we'll all be, I'm taking one for the team. Mm-hmm. I'm making this decision to prove that he's the Messiah. If he's not, and he fails, and he gets arrested and killed, then I'm doing everyone a favor as well, because I'm proving that he's another false messiah. So, I don't think I deny the fact that Judas makes very bad decisions, that Judas is motivated by things such as selfishness and greed has something to do with it, that there's demonic influence, all of that. I don't dismiss that. I just think that the notion that he just was purely bad and just decided to do this and that Satan just entered him and that was it, I just don't find plausible.

1:28:04Even if I believed it was good storytelling, I don't believe it was good.

1:28:07Alex O'Connor:Yeah, but it also just wouldn't be good storytelling. And it wouldn't be good storytelling. It'd be like, you know, I don't know if, I don't know, like Princess Leia is just sort of, you know, before Darth Sidious. And he's just like, I'll tell you what, I'll give you some money and you just give me Luke. And she's like, yeah, sure, why not? You know, it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Psychologically. From a storytelling perspective. And I don't believe it makes sense from a human, from a, what was the word you just used? Psychological perspective. Yeah, like a psychological perspective.

1:28:33So this is an example of a lot of what I do, which is sometimes I go, I don't have historical facts available. I don't have cultural facts available. A lot of times I do, which makes some of the portrayals very, very plausible. but sometimes it is human understanding psychological understanding i'm a student of the brain i'm a student of of psychology of philosophy of human reason of human logic of behavior um of of i've studied a lot of psychosis and um you know sociopaths and whatnot and i've studied that a lot and so um that allows me i think some some wisdom in going yeah judas our portrayal of Judas, I think, is not only good storytelling, but actually plausibly historically accurate.

1:29:21Alex O'Connor:There's a moment when Jesus is talking with Judas while they're staying at that house, in this beautiful courtyard garden, and Jesus says to Judas, you have a choice to make. Where is your heart? I want your heart. I've had it before. And I can't remember exactly what Judas says in response, but whatever it is he says, Jesus then says, then I'll pray for you. And some people took this to be an indication that Jesus is kind of wanting Judas to not betray him, and that he is praying that Judas will not betray him, even though not only does Jesus know that he's going to betray him, but also knows that this is integral to the mission, to his father's plan.

1:30:13Alex O'Connor:So if that's the case, why would Jesus be having this conversation? Why would he say you've got a choice to make when the choice is essentially already set in stone? And why would he say that he'd pray for him if not only would he not want to change his father's plan, but also that plan is already set in place? So the choice to make is—that idea is, again, it gets into free will versus predestination and all of that. There's a whole other discussion, but it does speak to—there are moments when Jesus talks about choices in the Gospels. There's moments throughout the Bible of, you know, choose now who you will serve.

1:30:55A slave cannot serve two masters. So, I believe that there's plenty of examples of the notion of making a choice that I think it's plausible that Jesus could tell someone to make a choice. The, I'll pray for you, and does that mean that Jesus could have been rooting for Judas to change his mind or not go through with it? That's a much bigger, I think, theological problem that I believe is raised, but here's what I believe reconciles it. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus is asking his father to take this cup from me. Is there another way? And then he says, but not your will. You and I both have multiple clips that if they were pulled from this conversation.

1:31:44We'll make a super cut. Yeah, exactly. Could say, see, I knew Dallas is an idiot.

1:31:47Alex O'Connor:Demonic Jesus saying, my will, mine. He says, not my will, but yours. Which by definition means that Jesus, at least at times, had a will that was different from his father's. That is not sin. The sin would be, the imperfection would be to say, I disagree with you. I wish there's another way, and therefore I am going to choose that other way. So he says, not my will, but yours, and then willingly gives himself up to the authorities. So that is what I drew from to justify Jesus saying, A, make a choice, because Jesus was, in the garden at least, seemingly making a choice to serve his Father's will.

1:32:38and then I'll pray for you. Again, some were saying, pray for you could have meant multiple things. He could have been, I mean, he prays for people all the time. He could have been praying for Judas's, and there's a number of things he could have been praying for. That's up for the viewer to decide. But let's say worst case scenario, according to the critics, that Jesus is praying for Judas to change his mind. Even that, I think, is theologically debatable, not heresy, that Jesus could have been. I'm saying he did.

1:33:09Alex O'Connor:Sort of wanted that. I'm not even saying in the scene that that's what the prayer was going to be. But I don't believe it's heresy that Jesus could have prayed for things to go differently than they did. Yeah, I mean, clearly, I mean, it would seem more heretical that there is just this man who is just condemned to do this thing that he has to do to fulfill God's plan, that God, like, designs, and yet is irredeemably evil, and God doesn't even, like, want him to be saved. The Christian message is that God wants everyone to be saved, and that has to include Judas, even if he has the foreknowledge that Judas will betray him.

1:33:43Alex O'Connor:So, yeah, it's complicated. How does your Judas actor feel about his character? What's his relationship like to Judas? Yeah, and I always try to let him speak for himself, but he said this to me privately and he said this publicly. I mean, it's very cool in many ways. Luke Dimeon, who plays Judas brilliantly. um yeah when we cast him um it was my wife who was really feeling um god's voice and impression on her heart that this was the guy he was auditioning for other roles and she just said i i see i think he could he's judas i think this is our judas and and and i eventually agreed and when we cast him he's like i have been obsessed with or intrigued by judas since i was a kid he grew up Coptic Egyptian.

1:34:30And I think his uncle, or I think it's an uncle who's like a significant figure in the Coptic Egyptian church. And he always had this, I don't buy the Judas narrative that he was just this bad guy. He's always considered him the underdog. He's always considered him misjudged. So for Luke, he actually, I've probably had the most amount of debates, challenging conversations with Luke, to your question earlier about actors saying, my character wouldn't say this, with him than probably any other actor and character in the show, because Luke is so passionately defensive of Judas and is willing to acknowledge him as the villain, is willing to acknowledge him as someone who made a horrible decision, is willing to say, yes, he's the antagonist, he's the villain, he makes the fatal flaw.

1:35:23So he's not defensive of that, but he loves Judas deeply, takes it very seriously, and has ultimately been supportive of our portrayal and has outright said to me, I trust you and I serve the vision. But it was not easy because he cares so deeply for Judas in an extraordinary way. And the whole role meets the actor perfectly was absolutely true in this case.

1:35:53Alex O'Connor:Hey, Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. there's another there's something kind of hanging over this like if we're talking about characters for whom you need to invent dialogue and backstories and context uh there's one sort of group of characters i think that this applies perhaps more to than than any other and we we've reference them briefly earlier and that's the women yeah there is a conspicuous absence of women in the gospels um like narratively i mean yeah and there's this really sort of extraordinary thing where i was thinking about the absence of of much backstory yeah like what they're doing you see them frequently but yeah it's very brief usually they're mentioned and then moved on so So like Mark's gospel, for example, doesn't mention these women until right at the crucifixion, right?

1:37:15Alex O'Connor:It's like he just says, oh, and at the foot of the cross was Mary and these women who were also funding Jesus's ministry. So this hugely important role. These women were literally bankrolling Jesus's operation and they just didn't get a mention. And I thought as a TV show creator, you've got to think in ways that other people aren't thinking, which is that you might not notice that reading Mark's gospel. You're not thinking about the women. You know characters like Mary Magdalene from Culture, and you sort of forget that they haven't been in there. Don't find it weird. But as a TV show host, if Jesus is talking to Simon Peter, a TV show creator, if Jesus is talking to Simon Peter, you've got to be thinking, well, what's Andrew doing while they're having that conversation?

1:38:00Alex O'Connor:Where's everyone sat? Who's in the room? Where are the women? where you know and so i can sort of see you trying to trying to find out what to do with the women and reading through mark's gospel and just being like you know but you've made this decision to to take these women and invent some some female characters and put them front and center in the narrative um is it is it because of woke dallas is it because you know modern media you know they're trying to sort of send a message down you know surely the reason why you're choosing to to invent female characters and give them such a central role that they don't have in the gospels To make up for the chauvinistic or…

1:38:37Yeah, history of cinema.

1:38:39Alex O'Connor:It's got to be a woke thing, right? Or even in the Gospels, which was a very patriarchal time, of course. So I'm kind of maybe correcting the errors of the Gospels, or the Gospel writers. So first of all, no, I have no agenda with it because of the following. I actually don't believe that the Gospels disclude women. Maybe there's not as much time spent on them, but they are mentioned in some of the most important moments in the entire Gospels. Now, the purpose of the Gospels, for the most part, I believe, is to give Jesus' greatest hits to show that he was the Messiah. And so, they do show women being healed.

1:39:24They do show women interact. They mention that Jesus was—his ministry was financed by the women. But because the women weren't one of the 12 followers, the narrative is going to be far more male-dominant. But they do get key mentions that are massive. So I don't believe I'm actually inventing a more significant role of the women. When Mary Magdalene is the first one Jesus appears to after his resurrection, and he gives her instructions to go talk to the apostles. And when she's mentioned as someone who had been healed by him of demons, when they are mentioned as funding his ministry, when the first person he announces himself publicly as the Messiah to is a woman at the well.

1:40:08And there's a whole fascinating series of verses of their exchange and the honor he gives her and the agency and beauty of her experience that he entrusts to her, the knowledge of her heart and backstory that he has because he's God, the care that he shows her that isn't shown by others, the trust that he gives her and knowing that she's going to go spread the word when he previously had been telling people, don't tell anybody. With her, he gives her the freedom. She goes and tells everybody. Those, I believe, are absolutely empowering, Jesus empowering women, honoring women significantly. So I don't believe that my, the time that I, while I would acknowledge the time I give the women in my show is more time than the gospels give, I believe that's true of all my, all of the characters, but I don't believe

1:41:01Alex O'Connor:it's a contradiction to how Jesus saw women. And so it's not a, it's not a correction of anything. It's a spotlight on and enhancement of time spent on what I believe Jesus, how I believe Jesus treated and thought of women. Well, we know that given that Mark just tells us that there were these women who had been following Jesus and just hadn't mentioned them, we know that there was stuff going on that wasn't explicitly sort of recorded in the Gospels, right? I've had on my show this wonderful scholar called Helen Bond at Edinburgh who wrote a book called Women Remembered. Yeah, I've read it, but I've heard of it, yeah.

1:41:42Alex O'Connor:It's brilliant. And it's about the position of women in the Gospels and why the Gospels are so quiet on them. There are some sort of very odd mysteries, like the fact that, as you say, in the Gospels, it's the women who discovered the empty tomb. It's some of the most important first moments of Jesus' resurrection. And yet, in 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul earlier, earlier like one of our earliest sources of the new testament is listing off all of the people that jesus has appeared to and he's talking about you know how he appeared to to see first and he appeared to the 12 and he appeared and last of all he appeared to me he appeared to 500 people at one time as above 500 people at one time and he just like doesn't mention the appearance to to mary yeah which is like really strange and some people have thought maybe that was a sexism thing.

1:42:29Alex O'Connor:Maybe that's because in the Gospels, it was unavoidable because it was known that the women discovered the tomb. But when Paul is preaching, he's like, oh, let's not mention that it was women who discovered the tomb. Yeah, and there's multiple theories. And I would say one of the most likely, to me at least, and again, I would defer to Rabbi Jason Sobel, our Messianic Jewish rabbi consultant on this, but to me, the most likely is that a woman's testimony was not actually considered valid. Exactly. In most cases. And so the gospel writers were like, you know, who cares about that? We are going to use them as a source material.

1:43:07But perhaps Paul's audience or perhaps, you know, Paul was recognizing that mentioning them might not make much of a difference in the point that he's trying to make. Now, when he says he appeared to 500, I can only assume that he's including women in that. But there's multiple reasons why he might not have. But yeah, I think the fact that the Gospels mention it, the fact that it's mentioned it clearly and decisively, that the women were at the cross, and that the men other than John weren't, I think is of note.

1:43:35Alex O'Connor:You know, it hadn't crossed my mind before. I mean, the 500 thing is really interesting because Paul mentions it once. We don't hear about it ever again. We don't know who these people were. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know anything about them. Some people have suggested that maybe when Jesus appeared to the 12 disciples, it wasn't just the 12, that loads of people ended up showing up and it was the same appearance. Some people have suggested it was a kind of vision. And it's just struck me, you know, don't tell me, you wouldn't tell me even if you knew the answer to this. But of course, your show follows the story of the Gospels.

1:44:07Alex O'Connor:It's not going to be super sensitive to the narrative events of what happens afterwards. but Paul writing the schema it sort of makes me wonder if there's any temptation to depict the the 500 because the obvious stuff that you the post-resurrection appearances you know you've got to you've got to choose are you going to depict them all you know in in Matthew's gospel Jesus appears to them in Galilee in Luke it's moved to Jerusalem for some reason and again you've got this thing of do you depict it twice do you just choose one and run with it and then you've got this sort of weird reference from Paul which given how little we know about it it's like maybe we should do that, maybe we shouldn't.

1:44:43Alex O'Connor:It must be a hell of a position to be in. Yeah, we do. Interesting choice of words.

1:44:52Like what I talked about earlier with the theology of healing, where I draw from some post-gospel sources, I think the same can be true historically. I would say my show, yes, is covering the Gospels, but I absolutely would draw from—when Paul says there were 500 that he appeared to, I would consider that perhaps not part of the four Gospels, but certainly Gospels. Part of the story, right?

1:45:18Alex O'Connor:Right. So, but one of the things that we don't do in the show that I think is one of probably the most significant historical omissions in our show is that Jesus undoubtedly had 72 followers who were with him probably most of the time. The 12 were the leaders, they were the core, they were the apostles versus just the followers and disciples. But he clearly had many more disciples, meaning followers who he taught regularly, that we don't include because it's a TV show. I can't, you know, I can't include, I have a hard enough time keeping track of the 12 that we've got and giving them enough lines of dialogue and all that.

1:45:57So do the Gospels.

1:45:58Alex O'Connor:Some suggest that they're sort of having a different list of names for the different disciples. Maybe the Gospel authors themselves struggle to keep track. It depends on your view. Bartholomew versus Nathaniel. But you know, there are things that you do exclude. You don't show, I mean, two things that we spoke about yesterday that jump out. The temptation in the desert by Satan, a huge moment at the beginning of Matthew and Luke, really important sort of message, lots of theological sort of weight there, not in the chosen. The transfiguration, one of the most sort of theologically charged moments of the synoptic gospels.

1:46:38Alex O'Connor:Jesus sort of, and you can imagine visually, Jesus on this mountain with Elijah and Moses. And it's this, I mean, people talk about how, you know, look, Elijah and Moses are the only Old Testament prophets to go up a mountain to commune with God. And there's Jesus talking with, who is it? But Elijah and Moses, and you don't depict it. Yeah. Why not? uh there are some things where i i've just said i either a don't know how to and uh haven't been able to to to to make sense of it within the you know the the context of the show that doesn't mean i'm saying it didn't happen i'm just saying you know you're going to get more out of it from the gospels than you are from the show and even from me illuminating it in the show um i will say that some of the things that I haven't shown yet are because I haven't shown them yet.

1:47:36Some things I've said publicly that the transfiguration is not going to be in the Chosen. But I also said at ChosenCon a couple of years ago, a gathering of all our, not all, a small portion, but thousands of fans, that I would do it in my Moses show. that when I do plan on doing a show, a three-season show about the story of Moses, and that I thought that feels to me more narratively, I don't know if compelling is the right word, but it's a really wonderful conclusion to the Moses arc if he wasn't allowed to see the promised land.

1:48:16Alex O'Connor:Yeah. But ultimately he actually did because he was there on this mount in Jerusalem with Christ. so um but within the context of the of the current show but the chosen i just am like i i don't know how to do it jesus glowing and on all this i'm always a little bit more nervous with the supernatural stuff yeah we start to introduce more of that in season six and seven i and it's it's very scary to me the walking on water scene as i mentioned to you off before we were talking today i was like i didn't want to do that i said i wouldn't do it i ended up changing my mind but because the supernatural stuff, it's like you don't want people watching it the whole time thinking about how we did it.

1:48:54We just want them to get lost in the story. But I don't deny the theological significance of the transfiguration or of the temptation in the wilderness, but I do believe we can capture some of that theological significance in other parts of the show. And also I would just definitively say the show is not meant to be a definitive theological treatise on Jesus. Sometimes there are scenes where I go, you know what? Go to church, study the Bible. That's where you need to engage with this story. The show is not the best place for it.

1:49:27Alex O'Connor:It's exciting that there will be other shows, sequels, that the story doesn't end with the end of the Gospels. I mean, it's so tempting. There's so much more to tell. I mean, there are obvious choices. There's the Acts of the Apostles, which happens right at the end. Which I do want to do. Which continues. That'd be great. Jesus' trip to America, of course. Oh, gosh. I've had enough issues with my LDS friends. Stick to the agnostic atheist side. Don't venture into the Mormon thing. I want to ask you, though, and I've wanted to ask you this since you reached out to talk to me, which I appreciate, is I watched a clip of you with Jordan Peterson where you are trying to get him to just answer a fairly simple question.

1:50:11I love Jordan Peterson. I actually, I know him. I've been on his show. But even I sometimes go, answer the question. It's not as challenging as your brilliant mind is making it, where you're saying, do you believe this happened? Right? Do you believe this actually happened? You know, because Jordan tends to speak in terms of, well, it happened. I'm not going to speak for him. He says it much better.

1:50:32Alex O'Connor:If you ask him if the Exodus story happened, he says, it's still happening. And it's like, okay, man, you know what I mean, though, don't you? And here's another direct quote from Jordan Peterson. This is verbatim. There are a few questions embedded in that question. What do you mean do? What do you mean you? What do you mean believe? And what do you mean God? And it's like, look, fair enough. I'm a big stickler for defining our terms and making sure that we all understand each other, but it does get to a point of extreme tedium, which is why when I spoke to him, I went in with a mission to get a clear answer on at least the question of Jesus' resurrection.

1:51:13Alex O'Connor:Yes. I think that one of the things that I would—I don't know his motives, but it seems he's—what I know of him, he's so resistant to being trapped into a label or into a box that he's not going to fall—he's not going to go on your terms of the question. so there's there's some of that but but because you are so will eager to get a direct answer um i i'm willing to ask you one which is um i think some people would be surprised that you've watched the chosen um or i mean i didn't know that you'd even heard of the show or had watched it and you told me that you had and that you've i think you're at least almost caught up or yeah yeah yeah yeah i remember watching the the first season during covid lockdown and then i saw all kinds of clips on YouTube.

1:51:59Alex O'Connor:And I'm just, I'm like a Jesus nut. So I thought it was awesome to see these. And in particularly season five has just been awesome. I think it's been really, really cool to see. I love the show. Thank you. But I'm curious, and I know that even a lot of chosen viewers are curious, when someone like yourself, who, I don't know all of the range of belief, what you believe of God, but is at the very least skeptical or questioning or or like, as you said, I'm not sure, and I don't believe that half of the things that Jesus is attributed to necessarily happened. When you watch the show and you see the portrayal of these events as though they happened, because that is my, of course, operating philosophy, I happen to believe that these things all happened, at least the gospel, the things that I include from the gospels.

1:52:48But there's things in the show that probably didn't happen. And you mentioned when you were talking to Jordan, you said, you were trying to get him to answer, and you said, in Forrest Gump, We know that Forrest Gump is a fictional character, but he meets JFK. We know that that meeting didn't take place because there's no such thing as Forrest Gump. But we do know JFK was the president. Right? So in the show, when you're watching the show, you believe Jesus lived in Nazareth. You believe in the historical Jesus. Yes, absolutely. But when you see him encounter Rhema or Atticus or some of these invented characters by me and my co-writers, or my father would correct me, my co-writers and I, my co-writers and me, we are saying, I'm outright saying in my conversation with you and publicly, I don't believe Atticus actually existed.

1:53:42He's that storytelling device. when you're watching scenes that i know didn't exist and you know didn't exist but then there's scenes that i believe did exist how do you as a how do you see them do you because we've seen people all over the world who come to belief yeah because of the show and it then makes them read the bible and and make you know but for you who as far as i know have not converted to christianity when you see scenes like that uh and you read moments in the gospels and stuff like that how do you take it? Why have you watched all five seasons? Why do you like it?

1:54:14Alex O'Connor:I think it's great television. I think it's extremely moving. I'm sure people tell you that all the time. It's just such a moving story, and the way it's depicted is incredibly moving. I think the same thing that I think when I read the Gospels in many ways, which is, I mean, you said that lots of people watch the show and come to Christ. I would imagine that probably in In a lot of those cases, at least, it's people who haven't encountered the gospel story before, not really heard the whole thing with all the details. Some of that is, most of it is they'd heard it, but they didn't quite make sense of it.

1:54:51Yeah, right. They heard it from a sermon and they had personal experiences that kind of impeded their vision. And of course, you know, those of us who believe the Holy Spirit works through certain things to give them that truth and that vision and enlightenment. Yeah. But yeah, so continue. Well, I sort of…

1:55:12Alex O'Connor:And I feel as though, as someone who is so interested in the New Testament, I spent so much time with the material that for me it's really cool to see it depicted. But I'm not sure how much it would do to like, it's not going to strike me as sort of like, wow, look at this character that I'm encountering that I've not encountered before. This is so strange and magical and cool because I have encountered this character in the gospel stories. But there is something about bringing it to life, which especially not having to worry about the sort of potential theological heresies and stuff and just being like, this is really cool.

1:55:45Alex O'Connor:I think it's like the it's probably the 20th greatest piece of Jesus media ever produced. Hey, Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know, back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new faith footwear? step into a local croc store and step into your new look try it style it make it yours because the right pair doesn't just show up it shows off first day fits handled walk out ready for whatever's next visit your nearest croc store today i think after the 27 books of the new Testament minus Revelation and the six disputed Pauline epistles. I think it's probably about there. I'm not entirely sure.

1:56:39Alex O'Connor:I mean, there are some paintings that probably give it around for its money. The Christ before the High Priest in the National Gallery in London is this incredible painting. Something about the facial expression of Jesus in that painting is it's almost like you take something as brilliant as The Chosen and you just collapse it into that one sort of five centimeter square something in there you know but in terms of like a bit of art a piece of art i think it's just wonderful man i think it's really really cool and i think what you've created i mean we're sat on the set right now we haven't even addressed yes uh the fact that that we're in this is the sanhedrin yeah we're in the sanhedrin sort of i don't know what you got there was a word for the name for the broom i've forgotten it but like they're they're sort of meeting place and it is incredible as someone who is interested in the story and fascinated by the New Testament, to see it brought to life in this way.

1:57:28Alex O'Connor:I feel like I'm in Disneyland right now. You know, it's like, it's absolutely incredible. And it humanizes Jesus in a way that's really important. It's very difficult for me to imagine Jesus having conversations with people. It's kind of in the same way that when I imagine George Washington, I imagine like a painting, an oil painting. I cannot imagine the Declaration of Independence being signed as like an event in a room. It's literally a painting in my head. And I sort of had a similar view of Jesus. He's this sort of old, cracked, kind of 11th century, you know, gold-plated. Yeah, different, emotionally distant, pious figure of leadership, but not a first-century Jewish man.

1:58:15Alex O'Connor:And I think The Chosen sort of breaks that open. And I think it's brilliant for doing so. But, you know, I'm also aware that I'm watching a TV show. I'm a Jesus nut. Basically, every single scene that I'm watching, I'm finding it very difficult not to be like, oh, interesting. Oh, okay. So when Jesus is sat with John and he sort of says that I love you, and I'm like, ah, so John is the beloved disciple. That's interesting. That's kind of where my brain is going, right? So I feel like maybe to my fault, that would prevent me from having any serious emotional connection all the way through, because I'm sort of jumping out of those moments.

1:58:53Alex O'Connor:But there are some moments where I'm deeply emotionally invested. I mean - I was curious, are you ever, I mean, you don't strike me as an overly emotional person, but are there times when you feel your heart moved? The woman at the well is, as I'm sure, I don't know if that's something you get a lot in terms of how moving it all is. But that scene, something about that scene is just so beautiful. And I don't think it has to be to do with the fact that you think this really happened and that Jesus is really there in the salvation of people. But I think something about just seeing a woman at the end of her desperation be given this lifeline is just beautiful.

1:59:34And so do you really believe that that happened or would you say, because you do believe in the historical Jesus. Oh, sure. So how many of the stories, I'll prephrase it. Yeah, well. Are there stories where you, do you ever face a story and you go, that one I really do believe in?

1:59:50Alex O'Connor:Yes, absolutely. So when it comes to stuff like that, I have no idea if Jesus revealed his messiahship to a woman at a well, or if that's just a narrative device by the evangelist who writes the fourth gospel. My general sort of approach to this is that there are certain criteria I can use to judge how historical a story is. if it doesn't fulfill these criteria it doesn't mean it didn't happen right it just means i'm less confident and those criteria are firstly is it multiply attested sure so is it in multiple gospels particularly if it spans both john's gospel and the synoptics yeah um and particularly if the synoptic gospels tell two different stories that seem to be drawing on a on two different traditions or if they're telling like the same story like if if matthew and luke tell something that isn't in Mark, like they're drawing on a tradition that's unique to them, you can pull out all of these different sources of the Gospels.

2:00:45Alex O'Connor:There's the sources for Matthew and Luke, there's Mark, there's Mark's sources, there's the sources for John, there's potentially this Q document. And if it appears in multiple of those, especially in different varying forms, I'm pretty sure it happened. Another thing would be things that the authors would be unlikely to make up. So for example, Jesus' baptism by John seems like a ridiculous thing to invent if you're trying to tell the story of Jesus as the Son of God. It seems like a potentially uncomfortable historical fact that John's gospel seems to distance us from by insisting that John is not the Messiah.

2:01:21Alex O'Connor:He really wants us to know that John the Baptist is not the Messiah, implying that there were people who thought he was the Messiah. I've done episodes on this. So I think the baptism probably happened. Some scholars point to when Jesus says to his 12 disciples, you will be sat on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. A lot of scholars think he must have said this because if an author was making this up, he wouldn't have written 12 because Judas was there. So if somebody was making this up after the fact, they wouldn't have made up this story. So Jesus probably said that. So all of these kinds of clues.

2:01:53Alex O'Connor:So when I'm watching a depiction of something which I'm almost certain was historical, that's when I'm like, it feels more like I can really place myself in the zone. I can really be like, wow, this must have been what it was like to see Jesus. Even just seeing him preach, maybe he wasn't saying those words or had that message, but just the ruckus, the people following him around, the upsetting of the Jewish and ultimately Roman authorities. Yeah. The crucifixion, I'm sure, will be the same just to see that. This is an event that happened. It'll be amazing to watch. but the particular conversations i i find it i find it very easy to be moved by them i find it very easy to to to enjoy and imagining what it might have been like in that world but it suddenly feels um less like i'm watching a biopic of john adams and more like i could be watching star wars or something although it's it's it's you know it's more interesting than star wars which is what's interesting is that i actually don't want viewers to watch the stuff that's not from the gospels as though they were gospel yeah right so i i'm i'm happy oh but i'm not i'm not just talking about the stuff that's not from the gospels i mean the stuff that's not like multiply attested i see so you're saying even the things that are in the gospels that are you're like this this could be that i'm like a bit dubious of yeah it's not that it didn't happen it's that it's it's you're much more...

2:03:13Wouldn't be surprised if it did, wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.

2:03:17Alex O'Connor:I think so, yeah. I mean, there are certain things which I think probably didn't happen or are unlikely to have happened. Like there are moments in John's Gospel where Jesus makes these profound Christological claims in front of all of his disciples that would be really strange for the others not to record. Like when Jesus says, before Abraham was, I am. These are the famous examples. And there's a lot to be said on this, believe me. Or when he says, I and the father are one these high christological claims apparently um it'd be really weird if he said these in the in the full hearing of his disciples and those guys thought oh you know you know when he like claimed to be god that's not that important let's not include that in our narrative so some people are a little bit sort of but then some people think that maybe there's a reason they didn't include it so we just kind of don't know yeah or yeah as much as reason they didn't include it or or a reason they focused on other things and you know it's not like they had exactly that's not include this.

2:04:09It's just more of a, the purpose of my book is not to, you know, I can only focus on so many things. And then John perhaps going, well, he's responding to some certain questions and certain, no, he did say this too, and he did say that too. Because yeah, going back to the metaphor of the 97 puzzle pieces, for me, where I feel comfortable not only believing some of these things from the gospel, all of these things from the gospels, but then portraying them is because I go, well, because there are so many things that I'm so confident that are true, that I'm going to then, by definition, believe that— okay, because I believe that these gospel accounts are accurate, and because now we're getting into creation and evolution and all this stuff, there's so many things that I believe that I would die for, that the things that I am not sure of, to me, feel like maybe the three pieces of the puzzle that I don't have assurance of, but that must be true because the 97 other puzzle pieces are connected and these three pieces would complete the puzzle, as opposed to looking at it from a, because these three puzzle pieces are missing, then therefore the whole puzzle is to be dismissed.

2:05:24Alex O'Connor:Yeah, I think that's fine and that's fair enough. To me, honestly, of course, the most difficult things to really wrap your head around are the most supernatural elements. I love seeing just the sort of humanity of Jesus. I love watching him just walk around, having conversations, just seeing the crowds and stuff. But to me, you'll have to ask me again in a year or two, because the way that you end up depicting the resurrection, the way that that is shown on camera. Which is multiply attested. Yeah. So on these things that are multiply attested and supernatural. It depends which appearance. If you show an appearance to the 11 in Galilee, then it's attested by Matthew.

2:06:14Alex O'Connor:you if you i mean mark doesn't attest to any you know and but he does but mark does have jesus say have the angel say that he will be in galilee so i suppose the the galilean appearance is is more plausible than the jerusalem appearance you know that will be running through my mind right but to me it's right now when i when i picture that i literally i'm trying to picture the the appearance of jesus uh to to the to the 11 disciples and i'm imagining a painting again just like the george Washington thing. And I have no doubt that in a couple of years after The Chosen, I might be able to picture it as like a real event in the world.

2:06:50Alex O'Connor:That's got to be a big weight on how you're going to present that. But I have no idea how that will affect my view of the plausibility of the resurrection. What about the other miracles in the show that were multiply attested? do you believe that miracles that jesus did miracles i think i've seen seen some of your conversations about this before so i'm an agnostic and broadly speaking that kind of means that i i don't believe it not say i believe they didn't happen but i i just i don't believe it i don't think there's good evidence for it exactly but if you did then the obvious then you're basically a christian yeah then you're then you believe that god exactly right world And so there is a tipping point.

2:07:32Alex O'Connor:But the thing that's mysterious is that scholars think that there are certain things about Jesus which are undisputed. It's not undisputed that Jesus was healing people, of course, but it is undisputed that he was known as a healer. Like, it is absolutely clear that one of the most sort of historically certain facts about Jesus was that people knew him as a healer. So he was doing something that gave people that impression. maybe he was some kind of trickster maybe he was some kind of fraud maybe he was like a sort of i don't know he was sort of stretching people's arms and doing like sports therapy and it all got a bit out of hand which happens to telling the story there are fraudsters and tricksters who do miracles that people believe our healings yeah and and i as a believer in jesus and a believer in healings don't believe and think we're yes are false and to be clear that's not my thing I don't think there's a guy who's trying to fool people here.

2:08:30Alex O'Connor:But yeah, you're quite right. I think it's possible that he was healing people in some kind of way. Like I say, like doing sports therapy. It's like, wow, you really fixed my elbow and give it a few hundred years. And that turns into like my arm grew back, you know. That's all possible. I don't know. But what I do know is that he was doing something because of the reputation that he had. And the fact that he had such a strong reputation as an exorcist is extremely strange. you know that in in the synoptic gospels jesus is one of the things he does most commonly is exercise demons and given that we don't really typically believe in demonic possession a lot in the modern world anyway that makes it even even more difficult to explain but the fact is he had a reputation for it so those facts are really interesting um although john's gospel sort of doesn't have the exorcisms anymore yeah and it's another sort of weird fact and to me that's what's so interesting i'm like why were these authors writing these stories what were their intentions why does john not include this sort of well-known sort of reputational fact about jesus that he was an exorcist maybe you know he's he's portraying there are all kinds of theories on that i'm not sure um but as to whether i believe that they happened the answer is no but i am far more fascinated than i think most of my sort of atheist friends and colleagues by the fact that there is this man with this reputation we sort of take for granted that the Gospels exist.

2:09:47We're like, oh, yeah, well, maybe the Gospel authors made this up, or maybe

2:09:51Alex O'Connor:the Gospel authors had this. And I'm sort of like, why do these texts exist at all? Why on earth does the Gospel of Mark get written? Maybe it's to deal with the destruction of the temple. Yeah, sure, I can get that. But then, but where does all this stuff about you? I'm just so fascinated by it. And for me as a storyteller, as a thinker, I've always been fascinated by lawyers and homicide detectives who are trying to make sense of things. I've always been fascinated by that. I've never been someone who just automatically accepts it because someone I trust said it or because I experienced something personally.

2:10:32So therefore, I mean, everyone's different and some people have those experiences. And that's, for me, I always go, what's the most plausible or what's the least plausible? I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I think the conspiracy theories about JFK are ludicrous. I believe that the conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk are ludicrous. I tend to believe in the most simple explanation. And so for me, the notion that the Gospels were written, like the least plausible is it's a church construction in order to control people and make money, which is what some people believe is that the Gospels were written post, you know like like later or they were harmonized later they were messed with um to to to have this to present this narrative so that they could control people and and and i find that nonsensical because of so many things that are in the gospels that are difficult to reconcile i would i would have done a much better job than than than they did if they were doing it like making it up yeah for the purpose of making it up to try to control people or whatever um and and so the like you said I love that you at least acknowledge that something happened that even if he was a trickster, he was so immensely amazing at it.

2:11:45Alex O'Connor:Yeah, he was a bloody good one. I mean, just that it's, it's no one could, it's, it's so good. And because people who didn't believe became believers, but people who came to him for healing and, and, and then there's no records of them. Like there's no records of, which I guess skeptics would point out, well, why would there be, but of, of the contradictions to those accounts. but you would think that if he was that impactful that there would be plenty of people who go well we need to we need to correct the record here but then the thing is i i i know how stories grow um you know sometimes it's like you know i've got an undergrad an undergraduate degree in philosophy and theology and sometimes i meet people and they're convinced that i've got like a phd and i'm like no just because i can see how that how that sort of happened because oh i've heard about that guy i think he's got a degree and he does this thing and he speaks with yeah he's and it sort of develops right and also like the gospels are written you know at best decades after jesus's death and there might have still been people kicking around but this idea that there would have been all of these people who could have like firstly the gospels didn't have that much time to spread there wasn't like wide literacy people probably weren't really reading them and so the idea that you sort of got the the sort of the common early christian who was healed by jesus who gets his hands on a copy of Mark's gospel, reads it through and goes, hold on, that's not what happened.

2:13:08Alex O'Connor:It sort of fills me with Paul. So I want to caveat this because Christians like to edit videos of me to make it look like I'm converting or converted. I want to caveat it by saying I am fascinated by the story. I think it's an astonishing fact that we need to explain why this text exists and why this reputation exists. But I'm also convinced that, especially when it comes to ancient history, embellishments happen, developments happen. People make things up not with the intention of deceiving, but with the intention of telling a more full story. People misremember things. People don't get the words right.

2:13:41Alex O'Connor:And I do think that kind of thing happens all the time. Yes, it does. And particularly Jewish non-believers, like Ben Shapiro or people who are religious Jews but don't believe in Jesus will often just say there were many other messiahs also who claimed to be messiah, and the religious leaders squelched them and got rid of them, and there were many other tricksters and hucksters and frauds, and the religious leaders got rid of them. We just don't know about it. And I go, well, that's true. And he just says—most would just say Jesus was just another one of those, and he was put down for good reasons because he was deceiving the people.

2:14:23And that's actually how a character like Shmuel in our show or some of the other Pharisees or Sadducees that we portray justify their behavior as we're doing a service to the people. This is a good thing. I just always go, so why did Jesus succeed or all these other false ones didn't? Because there were many of them, and they had some of the access to the same tricks and some of the same—they could have done it as well and why did he succeed so significantly? And the answer being, well, he was the David Blaine of magicians. He was just better than everybody.

2:14:53Alex O'Connor:That's possible. It's hard for me to accept. Something's got to be popular. Some people have said, why is it that there were lots of e-commerce sites at the beginning of the internet? Why is it that Amazon and eBay just became the popular ones? I don't know. They just did it better. But someone had to, right? Something had to be. and some people see that Jesus fills that role. And I think, you know, fair enough. But I think if that is all you've got, if that's all you've got in the face of this sort of extraordinary, I mean, one of the most well-documented people from antiquity, like by a long shot.

2:15:25Alex O'Connor:You can't use... It doesn't come close. If you believe in Jesus, or you don't believe in Jesus, but you believe in other historical figures that have significantly less attesting to them. Yeah, then you've got at least some questions to answer. And yeah, there are questions about, well, are the claims made by those lesser sources more believable? Is it like there are more sources, but less believable story? And they kind of balance that. There's lots to be said about that. But at the very least, it's a long conversation. And it takes longer than just this sort of like, oh, yeah, no, that's just a bunch of nonsense.

2:15:55Alex O'Connor:It might be nonsense. It might be a bunch of nonsense, but it's not just a bunch of nonsense. You know what I mean? And I would say, I would die for, like when I talk about those 97 puzzle pieces, I would die for those 97 puzzle pieces. There's other pieces of how old is the earth and was this book of the Bible a metaphor versus a historical document. Some of those things I would not die for. I would die for the truth of Jesus is God because of not only my analysis of history and the Bible, but also my own personal encounters with God. But what I think makes you unique and your show unique is that you're not all or nothing.

2:16:36You're not, I'm on, I'm doing this show to prove atheism as the, as the way and to disprove Christianity. It's a, we're on a spectrum of, of probabilities here and I'm leaning, I, I, I don't believe this as true, but I, I wouldn't rule it out. And, and what that means for me is obviously between you and, and God or, or you and whoever, whatever, or, or, or not, but you know, that's the, that's the answer of my question. So I just was, I'm not, I wasn't doing this to try to get into some sort of debate, but just to go. No, I know. Someone who's watched the show, all five seasons of the show, and is intrigued by it, I was just curious how you respond differently.

2:17:15Alex O'Connor:I cannot wait to see the rest of it. As I say, to me, the most, I mean, the most important part of the Christian story, for most Christians, I think, is the resurrection. Yeah. That's what we're waiting for. So we're about to film and we'll be filming. I don't remember when this is going to air, but when it does, we'll either have already filmed it or we're going to answer some of those questions for sure. we'll have to have another conversation i was going to say once once we've seen that um let's let's talk again i'm sure like like maybe even the majority of the interesting creative choices you will have to make in the entire show will happen probably from the crucifixion onwards so there'll be so much talk about maybe we can address it again then absolutely for now dallas jenkins thank you so much for having us on your incredible set um i i really appreciate your time and we're going to spend some more of it shortly by having a little walk around and and show me some more of the set.

2:18:04Alex O'Connor:It's going to be fun. Thank you for bringing me on. I'm on your show, but on our show's set. Yeah, this happens sometimes. And the set is incredible. I've had a little look around already, but we're going to go and do a sort of walk and talk. We're going to bring a camera. We're going to look around the set. We're going to show the people at home more of what you're doing here at The Chosen. And it's going to be great. But for this conversation, at least, thanks for your time. It's been fun. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.

2:18:38I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.

2:18:48Alex O'Connor:Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. Loved it, thank you.