Inside Silicon Valley's VC Playbook | WTF is Venture Capital? - 2025 Edition | Ep. 24

25:48and I guess what Nikos is saying that those patterns are maybe the hot ones. I don't want to put words in here. What's the pattern this year? Cursor for something. Cursor for. So there was a funny tweet the other day that said Y Combinator stands for Y Cursor. The C in YC stands for cursor. Because if you went to the demo day or the company directory over there and type cursor, it could be cursor for property management, cursor for investors, blah, blah, blah. The one crazy space I've seen in the last year is just like the AI scribes for healthcare companies. Typically, when you see, you see like one move ahead of the pack and, you know, others are just doing.

26:35Look at the AI scribe market. There's at least eight companies I know all doing double digit million dollars in ARR, all started within the last few years. And all growing double digit month over month. Just crazy. Like you just don't see a market like that to give on the voice side. This is like someone just like, you know, transcribing your notes. This is like a pro, right? You're talking about something you should look at. No, I'm just saying you asked like, what are the hot markets? I'm just saying there are hot markets. But sometimes as VCs, we look away at a hot market because the markets, but the market's so large that they can be six players all growing like crazy.

27:14So it's still like a market I wouldn't look at now because I feel it's too late, but as an early stage investor, but it's crazy that even though there are these markets where there's too many players playing, there's an example of one where you have like many, many players all doing very well. If you could each identify a trend in AI that is changing that somebody who is unaware like me does not know, what would you say? one nuanced trend that is changing in AI? Well, there's a couple I could say. Well, I don't know. Hard to guess what you may or may not know, but... Imagine nothing. Well, one is like talk of the town is how much Zuck wants to pay people.

28:00So the... Some people call it like engineers being athletes of today, which is interesting. It's not really tech-focused, but it is a theme. The second, I would say, is we've run out of public data. And we talked about RL in a different context earlier, but reinforcement learning has been the primary technique with which models get better over time. And acquiring data to do good reinforcement learning is quite different than how you would acquire data otherwise. So that is another trend. So when everybody runs out of data, they create synthetic and keep improving the models? It's not exactly like that.

28:43I mean, in reinforcement learning, you basically want an environment where there is certain rewards you can get. Sometimes they're extremely verifiable rewards, in which case it'd be RLVR. Sometimes they're more nuanced, where it's like text. Like, how do you verify that? But there are, you can use an LLM as a judge to verify that. So there's various kinds of rewards, but it's, you know, one way to think about it is, yes, you are generating an environment where there's rewards, and you're making the model become better at that task. in a similar way that you would do, for example, when Google did AlphaGo, and you train an AI to learn a game, you have a reward, which is winning the game, and then you figure out the steps in the middle.

29:22So it's not really synthetic data, per se. That is also used, but it's a different step. But that's what I meant by reinforcement learning. Let's see, what else? Number three, I think, is not talked about enough, is China, which is, you know, The narratives around China are interesting because most people in America, I feel, don't want to even recognize how good these models can be with perhaps far less capital expenditure, right? They're not spending that much for talent. They're not spending that much in even GPU resources. They don't have the latest cutting-edge GPU resources. Yet somehow they're able to come up with models that are not perhaps the best of the best, but they're quite good.

30:09They're frontier, as you say. And so those are some. Those are just some. Nico, would you like to add? Did you mention evals? I did not mention evals. Can you explain what it is? So when, let's say, you know, you're an attorney or you're a doctor and then there is an AI or consultant and there is an AI model that is trying to replicate some of the day-to-day tasks that you do. There are always some corner cases, some exceptions that the model by itself, even after you train it, you know, with all the world's data that's available out there won't get to. so when you recruit a consultant or the doctor to take a look at it, they could come up with some of the exceptions and further refine that model.

31:06And I think that's a very big market opportunity that's opening up right now. It will be going on for a long time because you can bring in entire new professions and model them that you couldn't do as well today. And it's just coding, basically. Nikunj? I think the recent news that everybody was jumping on was that OpenAI won the IMO gold and then DeepMind also did that as well. I think that was interesting, but I think a lot of people missed in the details was OpenAI also had this competition where they just barely came second, where they had a single model running for 10 hours straight where no direction whatsoever.

31:55And it was able to reason, figure it out, plan, go ahead, 10 steps back. But for 10 hours straight, it was able to do something. And I think that just blew my mind. It shows what the future capabilities will be where we're no longer... Even if we stop all AI development today, these models are already phenomenally good to think and reason and give us interesting solutions for a long period of time. And that's mind-blowing to me that we've already reached here and everybody's kind of just like, whoop-dee-la, kind of like walking away next. And so imagine you can throw these models at problems for 10 hours straight, whether it's the bare minimum of doing research on DD's every tweet on Twitter, to studying a thousand technical papers by the best researchers and trying to find hidden connections between them.

32:51And I think that's mind-blowing. I think this was not the case even two years ago. That's why agents, AI agents sucked, is because they couldn't reason, they couldn't understand. And in two years, just with the models getting better, all of these things are now unlocked. Whether it's research in the biotech space to astronomy, we'll be able to find new stars. I think we haven't even touched the frontier of what these models can do. And we're only limited by compute energy and essentially data, which I think continue to be the three modes that kind of continue along from the model's perspective.

33:29Anything else? I think everybody talks about AGI and ASI as this one moment. I think my hot take would be AGI is kind of already here. But humans, when we take a Waymo ride, the first time it's mind-blowing to us. and then the next time you're just kind of like on your phone checking Twitter. I think we're already there with these models today. These models are smarter than most humans already and we've kind of just been like, whatever, and kind of like walked away. And I think this is why it's going to be a continuous spectrum where we will claim AGI is not here maybe 10 years from now, but it's already kind of here.

34:07In the not theoretical definition maybe, but in a capabilities perspective, it's already better. Yeah, I think another area that's becoming critically important is like, what is the data set and the models that we can use to recreate the physical world? So in a world where we can have a lot of the robots that would do a bunch of the manual labor that it's hard to hire people for because they don't want to or it's expensive. How do you get to the five nines that you described? and there are not that many companies that use the example of autonomous vehicles that have been taking photos, videos and other inputs of the offline world like Waymo, Tesla.

34:50There are a few companies. So where else can you find other sources of such data either real world data or synthetic data on the Jeep that's labeled and easily readily to use? This is a very important space and has applications that can be in defense tech and all sorts of robotics. Yeah, so many, many. This embodied intelligence space, how you feed them with data is going to be one of the most amazing ones to do business in the next few years. Do you think there's a use case in India for that? For specifically what Niko said? Yeah. Oh, that's a complicated one. In terms of use case in India, how do you mean?

35:37Will self-driving cars make it to India? Let's say a robot has to make a sandwich. Does it have to train on some visual data that will be a job for someone else? The training part? It depends. There's a couple of different ways that people do it. There's this whole technique called Sim2Real, where you try to simulate it as much as you can, but then it's impossible to simulate the physical world. And so then you typically get other sources of data. And yes, there are some, as far as I understand, maybe you know more, there are labelers that will label this data in various companies. And those labelers can be sometimes in India, sometimes elsewhere.

36:15In Philippines, I mean, that's what scales the biggest market. There are towns where it's almost like night and day difference, right? But there are towns where it's like light all night. And the entire team there is working on some version of labeling. Now it could be labeling text, image, video. Last year, I've talked to many startups where they are basically building things that they give to workers in countries where labor is on the cheaper side, where they're doing everyday tasks and collecting that data and then feeding it to the model. It just makes sense. It's like how BPOs exist in these countries.

36:53The new BPOs are these labelers who will be basically getting data that these large language model companies need to help make the models better. It's just the next natural transition. Yeah, I think in many parts of the developing world where labor is really cheap, it might be harder to see some of these applications very quickly because the economics might not make sense. And then the real bottleneck for having robots, you know, companias for our daily tasks is that we need to make them. So if you think about the supply chain and everything required to make a gajillion of them, we might have ADI first, before robots actually start attacking us and taking over the means of production.

37:38And the future might be bright for them, but not as much for the human race. Just wanted to throw this out there because I get a lot of people telling me, who are not as intimately familiar with AI, telling me, oh, this is just pattern matching, this is just the internet, yada, yada, yada. If you look up this paper called Alpha Evolve from DeepMind, it is literally a paper where there are these simple math problems that everybody can understand, which is hexagon packing. You have a hexagon. How many of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, up to N hexagons can you fit? And how big is the surrounding hexagon? How small can you get the hexagon and pack all of this stuff in?

38:17And Alpha Evolve has made novel solutions on this problem that haven't been improved upon in 20, 30 years. So just to be clear, AI is very much pushing the frontiers of human knowledge just in bits and pieces today, and we're going to see more of it. I just wanted to throw that one out there. What else do you think is changing? If you had to predict, think of me as, I am an idiot because I know nothing about this, but I'm asking you to prophesize five years ahead and paint a picture of the world for me. One thing I think about probably, I don't know how much you guys think about it, but one thing I think about that is not talked about in this regard, and maybe five years is a bit short for this, probably 10 to 15, is just birth rate decline.

39:03I think that's a very real problem. I know it is also a funny problem because there's all these sorts of reasons why it's happening. But it's especially stark in, even if you go as far as like South Korea, you know, in two generations, that country may be like a tenth or less of the population it is today. It's really bad. But that has anything to do with AI? It has a lot to do with the economy and it has a lot to do with AI. How? I mean, I'd love to explore this with all of you guys. It's not a very well-formed thought, and I'm not an expert in this by any means, but a lot of economic growth is subtly tied in with the growth of the population, the growth of consumption overall.

39:50I mean, AI is no good unless you have somebody using something at the other end. Transactions have to be done for economic value for everyone to be prosperous. And so if we see a world where there's this rapid decline in population, what does that mean for the economy? What does that mean for clothing stores? Are you going to be able to sell clothing anymore, or are you going to sell much less? What happens to the stock of that business? So I don't know. I think that's a less explored problem, but it's going to be a slow burn. But it's something that, you know, has... Do transactions have to go up for productivity to go up?

40:23What if the value of the transaction goes up? It's possible. I think the amount that productivity, there's like an economic definition, I guess, and then just the general definition to go up to counteract this effect is, I think, somewhat unrealistic. But again, I'm not an economist. So I don't know. And how does AI exaggerate birth rate decline? I don't think necessarily it has anything to do with AI. I think there is a very clear chart. Like, essentially, 2009, it started declining. We all know what launched in 2009, which is the iPhone. So it's not AI as much as, like, our addiction to just digital media and phones in general.

41:11Like, and AI will like... People are having less kids because of iPhones? I mean, there's no... You can't directly point to it, right? There's no research that is that clear. But it is, like, 2009, across the world. and it's because we're just becoming more and more dependent on our digital, our emotional needs are being satisfied by more on the digital side whether it's us watching YouTube shorts versus going to a bar to date someone and I think AI will accelerate this problem for sure I do think we are confiding more in chat GPT than we talk to our closest humans including our own partners and I do think that has happened And there's nowhere that you can ever draw a direct line, but the trend is clear starting when the mobile phone came out.

42:02Young people now have less sex because they're addicted to their phone. And, you know, they don't even know how to interact with another human, especially in the post-COVID world. You could see it with younger people who missed out on school for like a year or two. and they were having a hard time interacting with other people in the offline world. So when you have, you know, less sex or you end up having it much later in life and you get a lot of the dopamine from digital experiences, what does it mean, you know, for like the fertility rate? What does it mean for a lot of the vice-powered industries in a world where in the US and the West, you know, you have Ozempic doing really well?

42:49What does it mean for suppressing other vices beyond just like, you know, excessive, you know, eating. So that stuff is like very interesting to just think about like the second order effects that are very hard to imagine. Because for example, you know, like to go back to tech with AVs, right? If AVs are everywhere, what does it mean, you know, for the economy around gas stations or Costco or like, you know, anyone who's supplying stuff to parking lots? I have no idea, you know. There might be in this country, amazing businesses, you know, that are supplying products and services to these sub-verticals.

43:24Yeah, the rate is dramatically accelerating. For the first time, there is a new form of intelligence that is going to be on par or over time superior to a lot of the stuff that we as humans can do. So if you can borrow ideas from the world of sci-fi, what does that mean? Does it mean that we're going to somehow fade in the background? We're going to be like the same way that we have pets or cats and dogs. Right now, AI will love us. and will feed us. The AI will assume the means of production, we'll have universal basic income, we'll be happy, maybe we'll start having more sex, I don't know. Maybe the NBA will have 10 ,000 teams, maybe everyone will be a supermodel, do sports, or become a poet.

44:06But then all the important decisions around running the world, allocating resources, this new form of intelligence is going to make these decisions, take over, and And, you know, it's going to be the new species that writes the history books. Who knows? It's a bit like a democracy and a smarter, benevolent, maybe benevolent dictator on top. Yeah. Is it important that we are making the decisions if something smarter is more capable? There are a lot of questions that, you know, this question raises here, right? One of the good news is that AI is still today powered with electricity. So if we're unhappy, we'll unplug it and we're good, right?

44:49Because the battery technology is not that sophisticated, you know, and enduring yet. But yeah, it does matter a lot, you know, who are the creators of this super powerful pieces of software and systems. Because if they themselves, you know, are all made of the same cloth and they have groupthink, they won't be able to cover a lot of the different voices that humans from all over the planet and different backgrounds might have. And unfortunately, you know, for the world, tech is moving really quickly. Policy cannot catch up. Like the hardest thing, honestly, that we face right now is even if you're like a PhD in AI, working for one of the foundation model companies, you can't keep up with the pace.

45:40This is the single hardest thing. So imagine being, you know, like a policymaker or somebody who thinks about that stuff all day long. How do you keep up? And, you know, the tech is improving in the background. This is really tricky. Do you personally believe the world will get there? Where we become like cats and dogs in the background? I don't want to believe in that world. But is there a scenario that this might happen? Yes, there is a scenario that this might happen. But I think I have the more optimistic take, which is like, see, since the industrial evolution, humans have just known to increase efficiency.

46:20It's like singular. Now it makes sense that you worked at Kostler Ventures. Every year, productivity is going up a couple of percent. And even the internet, you know? But the point being is we've always found a way to do more. Jobs have come and gone. Typewriters used to be a thing, no longer a thing. Pace is accelerating, but pace has always been accelerating. Maybe it's just an exponential curve, and that's why we're on the rollercoaster, on the edge, and that's why we're feeling it. But I believe in an abundant future, where I believe we'll have more time to do more leisureful activities. The work day might go down from 12 hours a day to six hours a day.

47:01And that means we have more time for art and music and entertainment and spending time with our loved ones. That's my take on the situation. That's the abundant scenario. It's already happening today. It's already happening today. If you take way more, right? Before you were behind the steering wheel. Now you are reading, you know, it is too late so nice. But this also happened 2 ,000 years ago. say Greek society, not everybody had to work because they were doing so well. Philosophy was a thing where people sat and spent their lives philosophizing what they should believe in, what they should not believe in.

47:36Maybe the world goes there, no? It will, yeah. There will be 10 ,000 teams in the NBA, as I said. We're all going to be philosophers and poets. Maybe we'll have a lot more sex and we can live like our own version of Brian Johnson. It will live for like 2 ,000 years. It might very well happen, yeah. I'm a bit more apprehensive on the abundance situation because I think the abundance narrative necessary. There will always be certain people with less resources. And as long as you have less resources, you will want more resources. And so the abundance mindset, I think, is a luxury of a few. And there is no way you can convince somebody who grows up from a, I don't know, poverty stricken family in India.

48:18You can't convince them. Before you go ahead. Yeah. does abundance hit proportionately to the modes of capitalism when there is abundance? Absolutely. That's what history has time and again told us. If you read my favorite book, Capital in the 21st Century by Thomas Piketty, every time there is growth and development, inequality increases, I don't think there's very many situations where that's not the case. But he makes a case for that donut economics, right? Like the marginal utility of money beyond a point. Yes. Goes down. That's correct. But despite that, I mean, I still think we have a very far gap to fill before, you know, the entirety of society is above the point where the marginal amount of money means nothing.

49:03I mean, we see it in a little bit, right? There are people who, I mean, I think about this all the time. But also think about this. You were just saying fertility rates are dropping such that countries in two generations will have one-tenth the number of people they have. So that changes everything too, right? Yeah. Yeah, but let's talk about that. What if we have the artificial womb? I just had, you know, a baby through a surrogate. I'm in my early 40s. My wife is in her early 40s. Honestly, it's amazing. I think we need to make having kids cool again. Yes. It's not as much about the incentives, but it's more about the narrative.

49:38Like, so if we're old to become a lot more religious, this perhaps would mean that you would get married, you know, earlier. this would probably mean that for the religion to propagate you would have more keats earlier. So one of the reasons for example why in Latin America the fertility rates decline is some of the steepest in the world is because Catholicism in many of these countries is not as cool as it used to be in previous decades. So would you bet on religion making a comeback because it ought to? I think it is making a comeback. Yeah, and part of the reason is after like 15 years being stuck on a small screen and after, you know, 20 years of going to Equinox, Bars, Bootcamp or whatever, you know, these institutions are for you depending on where you live.

50:30You're trying to find other places that have a meaning. By the way, there might be an AI religion that gets formed. who knows that is going to fulfill the emotional needs that some humans might have. But yeah, I do think religion is making a comeback. I think it's all about a search for meaning. That's where I go back on the abundant side. It's like search for meaning eventually ends up coming with people and the byproducts of people, not from a kite's perspective, but whatever we end up doing. And I think if, going back to the poverty side, I think we live in a place where more people die of calorie surplus than negative.

51:09I think that's why OSMPIC is doing so well. Obesity is the number one killer. I know that's not what you were trying to say, but I think going back to that point, we already live in an abundant future. The income disparity I agree with, that is my number one fear. But I don't know what the solution there is, because UBI experiment has been tried, and it'll be interesting to see as that gap goes bigger, what happens. Yeah, I actually agree with all of your points. My only difference is the search for meaning in the Maslow's hierarchy of need is after a couple of other things. Sure. And it's not always just about, it's about, I think, humans' own perception of status.

51:49Sure. And where they are. Yeah. And, like, you know, obviously the food in America is not as much of a problem, calories is not. But, yeah, that's kind of, but I think we do agree. I think just separate. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we spoke about... Huh? What are you saying? Say it out loud. Sorry, no. Every kind of self-driving car passes by its experience of violence. That's okay. It'll sound natural. Only in San Francisco. But he immediately reminded me of the Spy. The Waymos are going to detect the Nikhil Kamath podcast. Yeah. What? We were just talking about there's a Netflix series called The Spy.

52:31It's about Israeli spy in Iran? Syria. In Damascus, yeah. And the way he gets found out is like he's talking on this frequency with a particular frequency and they have these cars that are just driving by and they catch him on that frequency. So it very much reminded me of the way most passing by causing our frequency. Imagine what must be happening to spy technology and all this, right? Oh my God. Can't even, it's crazy. Everything is watched and heard in perpetuity almost, I'm guessing. I mean, weapons technology with AI is also, you know, not, it's a very investable asset and people are investing in it and some crazy things come out of it.

53:19I think we should all assume that we're living our lives in public now. And it's a little bit hard to say that if you're somebody, you know, and you're like 40s or older, but pretty much, you know, every second or third building now on the street has some cameras installed. Everyone has a phone with a camera. You have a city with self-driving cars, there are cameras. Like with all these sensors, you're living life in public. And then anything you ever say online, in theory, you know, somebody can truck it. Imagine being somebody who is in elementary school right now. By the moment you started using computers, if you created your account, like on the iPod, and now you're using Chajri PT to help you with your homework, and you can share your feelings, everything is getting trucked.

54:19I mean, parents are putting their newborn on Instagram. that's like, you know, your digital identity is already being published without your choice. Without your choice. Yeah, and now it's just like the moment you push a digital device and any age's hand is gone. What do you guys do for your kids? Do you have plans to put them on Instagram? I haven't used Instagram in four years, so. I think one of the thoughts I have, which is like a hopefully positive thought, is, you know, by the time my kid is going to be a teenager, the iPhone won't really exist in its current shape and form. So like one of the things that I'm amazed by that could be a predecessor, you know, to this argument I just made coming true is when you have really young kids interacting with technology, they do so with their hands or with voice.

55:08And then you put them in front of a laptop, they see the keyboard and they freeze. Like, what am I supposed to do with this thing? because so far I've been talking to my iPad or my dad is like iPhone. So I think in a 4-4 project with new software and new AI first hardware, how we could interact with technology, the small screen might not be as addictive. We might actually have it in our brain. Do you think that could become a business in itself? no tech, no devices, disconnected, maybe a real estate project around now? It is already business. So like people here around San Francisco, they would go for like three, four day silent retreats or we don't use technology to find themselves, to clean their souls.

56:04It's already business. And it's going to become more and more of a bigger trend. I mean, for some time, and first half of the previous decade, Burning Man was that. Now, sadly, Starlink destroyed it, that aspect of it. But this was a part of what Burning Man served to the technology of that era. India has Vipassana, which is similar, right? Yeah, sorry. No, sci-fi books, I exclusively only read sci-fi. It's a perfect picture on the future. I think it's Snow Crash was the book where they basically had these bars where you go in and like everything electronic is turned off. And it felt to people very unnatural and weird because they don't have everything in their brain recording or intelligent, an extra intelligence layer.

56:53And that's the future people will do to feel human again. So Snow Crash is an old sci-fi book. What are the books of today's sayings if you're reading them? There's, I mean, I only read like older books, like the newer books, obviously like Blake Crouch is excellent. Like I highly recommend reading everything he writes. But like, it's like reading the older books is fun because it shows you 20 years in the future. Now people are using like AI as the base and building on top of that. But Three-Body Problem is like my absolute favorite. I've read it. What does the Three-Body Problem talk about?

57:32it talks about just like everything from interstellar space to how humanity travels to different places I wouldn't do it any justice trying to explain the core fundamental science things but I highly recommend reading it if you don't want to read it just watch the Netflix series which is a poor adaptation but I know people like video more than reading nowadays it's unbelievably good it has cut a lot of pieces on society, culture, governance, interstellar space to even human emotion. It's very, very, very well done. You brought up an interesting point. People have an easier time watching video instead of reading, because now we're constantly distracted and the push notifications and technology are so addictive and we want to get our dopamine heat.

58:25So like going back to what we were discussing before, you know, there are these offline retreats, but there are also some applications out there like ClearSpace and Opal and others that help you have like a digital detox on your phone. They're all growing. And all of them are growing. Yeah. So this is like, you know, speaking, it's like evidence that consumers are voting with their dollars to block the most addictive products out there. Most often social media products. And there is even a new class of consumer hardware startups that are creating versions of dumb phones with some core utilities.

59:03Because one would argue if you cannot call Uber or Waymo, that's a problem. If you cannot text your loved one, that's a problem. But do you really need to have all the different messaging apps or social media apps on your phone? Probably not. For the sake of playing devil's advocate, because as much as I love your guys' argument, I want to buy that. On the other hand, I was looking at the stat for how much YouTube is watched in the world. And if you do the numbers, the final result I got was 2 % of all human waking hours is on YouTube. That's an insane amount. And look, there's some assumptions, so maybe 1%.

59:46So, I mean, that's rising too. So I think I still worry about it because, sure, some people are detoxing, but it's like a vice is a vice. I mean, you can stop some people from gambling, but there's a reason the law is prohibited. It's because people are drawn to vices. I was in India for two weeks, and I mean, I've seen the rise of geo and cheap data everywhere. And I come once a year for two weeks. And it's crazy. it's like you know the security guy at 3am in the morning is watching like a YouTube video which like you know and it's like probably terrible for his eyes and like it's like I didn't see anybody like yeah it's like everywhere because it's so cheap data's proliferated so I mean I don't I think the genie is out I think it's kind of one of those like we live very privileged lives being in the Bay Area we can be like oh we need to do digital detox and people are like still making money and all of those things you realize we're making a YouTube video right now I know

1:00:46This is YouTube education section, right? That's a good part of YouTube. It's like having salmon and broccoli, great. It's not like McDonald's. What do you think happens to matchmaking? Dating apps. What happens to dating apps? We just met one yesterday. That's what I'm asking. Which one? Niche. Oh, Nandini. Yeah. Nice. They will evolve. Into?

1:01:17probably it will be a continuation of some of this you know ai products that know everything about you and they know everything about a lot of other people that might be a good fit for you and they could be able to make curated intros and could be able to handle the beginning of the conversation so that you get to the actual, you know, like date. Because today's AI apps in the West, they're more like entertainment products than actual dating apps. Yeah, I think you get the dopamine from matching, not from dating. Right. So it's something like 30 % of people who are in the swipe left and right, they've never been on a date.

1:01:59And then these products were built for like a different generation where, you know, people were not as gender fluid. And for example, you know, if I'm like, somebody who is on the younger side and is bi, just having like a straight profile on Tinder doesn't serve me as well. And the other thing that's going on, unfortunately, is there's a lot of data discrimination that's happening on the dating apps. So something like eight to 10 % of the guys get 80 % of the dates. This is really bad news for humanity. And this speaks to a need that's in the background, like a demand for something new. So like, for example, if you're a guy and you're not getting any dates on any of the popular online dating apps, the best thing you can do is delete it from your phone, sign up with a new location.

1:02:53Ideally you input a location next to an airport. So over there, there are a lot of people coming in and out and the algorithm gets rerouted, you know, again. I think the future of online dating is going to be part of what people are using, like LGBT, to do their homework. So anyone who's young now and they're just addicted to that behavior, they would expect a similar kind of experience for other parts of life. I think, I believe we'll all have digital twins. It just makes sense. Like, you know, we already do in ChatGPT in the memory layer, like we're inputting so much of our information in there.

1:03:36And so I think dating just evolves very similarly where, you know, why swipe left or right? Where if your digital twin is able to just figure out from this ocean of other digital twins who's the best match for you, they do the early conversations and then you just get to meet them. And you just trust the algorithm to do the curation. Today in Tinder, you're just filling out a profile that has stale data. But imagine if you could take your deepest, darkest, like all the things that you put in ChatGPT today to do the matching for you. It would be far more effective because it does all the matching.

1:04:11And it's like, okay, then you have a slider. It's like, how different do you want them? If you have three different dates, it's like, you know, one's like truly a magic eight ball. One's like ideally matched to who you are. But is it an industry that you would bet on? Thank you.

1:04:29you would want to allocate money behind it? There's one of the dating apps in Menlo's portfolio is like Raya, which was a good investment. But generally, dating apps today, you have to have something unique for it to be a good bet. I think Nico probably knows more, but you guys are more consumer investors than I am. I mean, with consumer, it's just really tough to bet on these things unless you see some element of traction already. You need to know that it works. works, but correct me if I'm wrong. And Facebook was a dating product in the early days. So would you invest in the next Facebook that's going to look very different than it?

1:05:06Yes, you would. What is the single best dating product today if you're a very successful person? Probably Instagram. Because over there, you know, you can slide into other famous people, beautiful people's DMs and they would reply back at you. But over time, you know, these things will evolve. And then I think there's something to be said about offline experiences around dating becoming a lot more desirable for people. Like in a world where, like, you know, the online experiences are very addictive and we have them in abundance, what becomes cars? They're very awesome, cool offline experiences.

1:05:49So anyone who has the means would want to be part of that. If somebody's building a dating app, they should solve not just for meeting someone, but also for the date. Absolutely. Yeah. So I work with one team called 222. They're in New York. How do you spell that? 222.place is the website. And what those folks are doing, something very simple. You're a newcomer to New York City or to LA or San Francisco. You want to meet others. You can go and do a cooking class together. or you can go and have like dinner, you and two other friends of yours and seven strangers. And then alongside 97 other people, you can go to a bar.

1:06:35And people pay their subscribers to that. And it's growing really, really quickly. So the future of dating apps will be more offline than online. Yeah, and less swiping. I think that part-time has come to run its course. okay so we've established humans could become like cats and dogs religion will do well maybe a new ai religion fertility rates will drop and that rate might exaggerate we also said matchmaking will change digital twin offline instagram is where a lot of people date today we said socialism and capitalism will move closer to center i don't know and then that one I plead the fifth.

1:07:22I think more capitalism. You know, I visited South Korea this past Christmas. Yeah. And I went to like a viewpoint where you can see the closest town of North Korea in the demilitarized zone. And it was striking to see the difference. It was one of these clear days because normally there's a lot of pollution you cannot see. So I could see the streets of that town. And in the 30 minutes I was at that coffee shop, I didn't see a single car. and it's like a shock because I was like whoa you know we're just like two three miles away and here there is stuff happening and over there you know poor people who happen to be born there because of their own volition and they're stuck in the ice ages instead of economic growth so like there are certain places where you can compare and contrast you know the different systems sadly still we also said off the grid businesses will do well digital detox with person kind of stuff video over reading will continue to grow video will continue to get shorter you want a dopamine spike sooner i mean capitalism i think will always reward whatever hacks your brain to give you reward immediately in dopamine and that means that's why there is shift to shorter video it's an easier hack for the brain what if so we have like brain implants and you know there are going to be ways to hack people's brains or a new form of digital drugs will be invented you know like neural link yeah neural link it's one of the companies that are building the brain implants right but like historically you know we've like images more than text we've like video more than images we've like short video more than like long form video but i'm saying if most people, you know, many people have brain implants.

1:09:15There will be new things they'd like. And... Would you get one? If somebody were to tell you here, Nico is a brain implant, which will increase your IQ by 40%. I'm sure there could be a reason for me to do it. You know, by that time, I might have some cognitive decline, right? And I won't like that or... No, very like optional. Like you're okay. And somebody offers it to you. And if you had said to me a few years ago, you could speak all of the world's languages with a brain implant, it would be like, sign me up. Now, unfortunately, some of these, you know, like Ray-Ban smart glasses, you know, are getting there.

1:09:52So this might not be the use case that gets me. But, you know, if you can have like cognitive superpowers, why not? Or if I could have a part in my head at all times, or there's a monologue going on in my head, you know, at all times, like thinking too many things. If that, you know, implant can help me pacify it, great. What do you think happens to urbanization? Do we all still want to be in densely populated cities? I think so. Because this has been the case, you know, since the very beginning of humanity. Like we tend to be more and more dense, you know, cities. It's great for, we're all social animals.

1:10:33It's great for the planet. It's great for productivity. If it's true, wouldn't we be one block of people in every country or one block of densely populated people? Why do we have states? Why do different states have different cities? Because the world has been around for long enough. But in many countries now, which, you know, countries was a new idea from the 19th century. In many countries, you see certain cities where you have like, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 % of the population. But not 100. Not 100%, no, unless it's a very small one like Singapore, right? Yeah. Yeah. But think of a country like the US.

1:11:13If that was the prevailing trend, there would be one block either on the West Coast or East Coast where everybody would leave. I think natural resources matter, energy. There's a lot of other factors also. Climate change also matters. Climate change, climate change matters, terrain matters. The economy, yeah. Economy matters. It just doesn't, people choose to leave and go somewhere else. I don't think it's that simple. Would you bet on urbanization to continue with Nico as well? 100%. Yeah. But I think it'll continue. But then as the income disparity grows, the real estate grows. Sorry. As we get more and more things in the digital world, real estate actually becomes far more expensive.

1:11:54Why? Because that's the only asset people can hold on to. That's a real blockchain, man. Yeah. It's a supply-constrained asset. It's a supply-constrained asset. But if there are one-tenth the number of people and there's infinite land in the world, I don't think there's one-tenth the number of people. The cycle of decline, does it ever go up? We don't know, right? I think it does, but it has happened. Declines in civilizational population have happened in the past for mostly war and other sorts of reasons, famine, disease. But this time it's not that. This time it's not that. It's voluntary. I think that part, humans generally fix themselves.

1:12:32So I'm optimistic. Just going back to the digital detox side, right? What if we all live like 120 years, right? Which is believable for folks who are now getting born or they're like 10, 15 years old. So if that happens, the population decline is not going to be as quick as we might think it is. And normally for the population to grow, it depends really on the number of fertile women and how many years they have that they're fertile. So that's a constraint that nature or God gave to us. So what if you could 3x the number of fertile years that we have today or we could have artificial wombs. But we all want to live longer.

1:13:21I think most people, if they believe in a better future for themselves, they want to live longer. Most people would say yes. and this believing in a better future tomorrow is a very recent phenomenon before the industrial revolution if you asked anybody how do you think you will be five years from now most people thought they would be worse off this is new that we have seen growth for as long as we have in some form or another it is yeah so longevity and wellness as a business good place to be great place to be this is the first time you have said great this evening yeah thank you yeah right i lost my co-pilot right now what do you think um i think long longer term great places to to be and to invest in i think biotech is taking a lot of interesting strides in terms of drug discovery so how do we solve a bunch of the diseases that cause early death i think is really important There's a lot of cool work going on there.

1:14:30Longevity, I think it's a slower burn. So, you know, I'm optimistic, but on a slightly longer time horizon. That's the name, right? I guess so. I guess so. And then, so I am very optimistic about biotech. Overall, I think the artificial womb thing is interesting for sure, but I think it does cause into question some concerns around, you know, how many kids will one person be able to have? Because then it becomes a, you know, purchasable asset. Can you have a thousand kids? If you can just artificial womb them, maybe. Some people might want to do that. Well, religion has sold for that. It becomes uneconomic, you know, according to most religions, to have many kids.

1:15:20At the extreme ends, though, I think that we could see some interesting things happen there. We need robots to help raise them too. That too. And this would be probably more expensive. Or you would need a lot more space. Since real estate is becoming more expensive, that's a real limitation. Do you think real estate will continue to become more expensive? Do you believe in that finite supply? One of the issues that we have in the Western world is that productivity in the construction industry has been stagnating or certain decades going down. So unless we fix that, unfortunately, you know, in most places, real estate will continue to become more expensive.

1:15:59Right. So we were doing this exercise. At the end of the day, we're all capital allocators, right? All four of us in one way or another. Maybe on the venture side, the private equity side, whatever. So we were trying to arrive at what statements hold the most value for us. from a rate of change is increasing, world is changing. 10 years from now, which industry would have grown the fastest? I'm going to share the statements one by one and maybe we can all opine. Disagree, agree, rate them. The first one I'll say is Indian families with rising income, reducing family size, will invest in premium education.

1:16:45Outcome-focused education will take preference. What do you guys think? Great. Only this particular? I think in general that will happen. Yeah, I'm just saying Indian because we were sitting in India doing this exercise. Niko? Do you think everybody will spend more on education? No. But certain cultures like in India or in South Korea or where I come from in Greece, they absolutely do because they see this as a viable path to improving their chances of their offsprings doing well. In the US, the average person does not care about spending money on their kid's education. My kid is bad at math, the teacher is bad.

1:17:27That's changing. Why is that culturally? It's an immigrant nation and everybody has become successful in the recent past. So didn't they distinguish the successful from the unsuccessful also through the lens of education? Who is they? The American people. Even, you know, you forget. When you made it to the top, often you forget. And for a lot of folks, this is not priority number one. If you're like an immigrant yourself or you're somebody affluent, you, of course, do care a lot about it. Yeah, every society in the past that has achieved pinnacle status has always shifted to arts and culture as their way to spend time, whether it's sports or something else.

1:18:17And in America, it's a very sports-oriented culture more than it is an education-oriented culture, like you said. I don't know too many, you know. Can I ask you guys to give it a rating, 1 to 10? This one? Yeah. The Indian household. Education one? 8 or 9. Okay. Same? I'm like a 10. You come from a country that's in the up and up. Yeah. Okay. Nikunj? Outcome-focused education, yeah. Yeah, it is the future. Nine. Okay. Secondary markets for private companies will become a big thing. Ten. Again, these are moments in time, right? Because there are moments when regulators and incentives are aligning for public markets to be open and to welcome companies at a month's earlier stage.

1:19:14there are other moments that this is not the case so at the moment you know we're uh living in during a time where a lot of the value is captured by private investors on the way up like you now see quite a few companies that are worth 100 billion dollar plus whereas back in the day you know this was not the case like when facebook went public and was valued on day one over 100 billion dollars I think they were the first ones ever, you know, to do that in 2012. And could you also argue that tomorrow a lot more really large companies will want to avoid or circumvent taking retail money because they'll have to be overregulated if they do?

1:20:00If indeed, you know, they have to be overregulated and they have a choice because they can get funding from other places, yeah, they might avoid. But if we bring down the regulatory constraints or capital from other sources becomes more scarce, this could be an option. For me, somebody who lives in the US, it's actually sad that the retail investor, the pension funds, the low fees, ETFs cannot have access to some of these wealth sooner rather than later. It's sad, 100%, but I don't think it's changing anytime soon, right? at the moment it looks like it's not going to change in terms of that yes yeah it's like 8 or 9 there's this access I think if you think about like imbalance in the future or disparity like access becomes the primary thing that only a few people have and that's the sad aspect access will be gatekept and I think that's the that's the sad aspect but do I see it changing anytime soon no incentives are just not aligned do you guys want to rate the statement Nico secondary markets secondary markets marketplaces they're going to be strong forever for the next 10 years yeah I think it's a 5 yeah 5?

1:21:20yeah TD? I said 10 10? I don't see it changing Nikuj? let's flip the middle take 7 I think I don't 7.5 I think it'll change I think it'll change in the start of next decade the world will be older and sicker wellness hospitalization longevity great sectors to be in i think they're two different statements in my opinion explain i don't think you i don't believe the world will be older and sicker why not i mean we're constantly improving First, I believe, as Didi mentioned, biotech is the application area where I do believe us discovering new things will be the most. Literally one sector will discover the most things where AI will be useful, it's biotech.

1:22:13And I think that will help transform most of the common diseases why we die. Ozempic is already dealing with obesity, which is a huge factor. So I do think we'll live longer and healthier. but I do think that will take investment. Longer and that is agreed. World will be older. If you live longer, world will be older. Yeah, so that's right. So older and not sicker, yeah. And then average, like if you think about median happiness years, let's put it like in a philosophical way. No, I'm more thinking how many people are sick at one point of time because money can be made by treating them. How many people?

1:22:54Do you want to answer? Go for it. Yeah. I was going to be pretty strong on this one. I mean, just, again, this is a side effect of birth rate decline. So as birth rates decline, the demographic imbalance will switch to having more older people. I think, yeah, you're right. I mean, you have to debate the baseline of what sicker means. Yes, that's what I was thinking. Generally, if you're talking about the world being sicker because there are more older people and older people are generally sicker, yeah, I mean, that is factual. Let's say we've just come out of COVID. after many, many decades, we had something like that.

1:23:29Maybe there'll be more. Perhaps, but even without that, I would say the world is, older people get sicker, people will be older, therefore people will be sicker. And then longevity, wellness, and all of that. Very important stuff. Also because of how connected we are right now when something transmissible comes about next, we'll all get it much faster than we did historically. That's why I say sicker. Like I was sitting with somebody from Moderna last week and they were saying we got really close with bird flu, but the world has gotten to a point where if I have something which is moderately infectious, the odds of the last person in the world not catching it are low today.

1:24:07But I think we'll be able to come up with an antidote faster and distribute it faster also. I think that's the corollary that I don't think we get. Like COVID would have been much worse without mRNA, a lot of these things that didn't exist like 10, 15 years ago. and I think that pace is only going to accelerate. So that's what I was trying to like understand. I think the acceleration of us making things better. Let me put it more specifically. I think the ambiguity goes away. In 2035, I'm reviewing the portfolio that is being invested in today. Will the business of treating sick people have done well by then?

1:24:43I think we're rating that. I mean, in the US, it's already what, 19 % of US GDP goes in healthcare. Yeah. That number will go up? 100%. Yeah, that. Yeah. The number will go up. Does it mean it's a good business? Yes, exactly. TBD. Because if you are in healthcare services or you run hospital stuff, most of them are not great businesses. However, you know, if you find ways to bend the cost curve, oh my God, amazing. All the trends are on your side. I suspect there are better businesses outside of the US because the US has a problem which is very unique to itself. Right, that's right. Like the multiples of hospital companies in India are like 100 times wrong.

1:25:31Especially if you've been able to build a brand around it. Do you like to rate this, Nico? Older, sicker world? I think older, yes. Seeker, it's a definition thing. But like, you know, is this market going to become much bigger? between now and 2035, yes, it's like a nine, you know? Nine. Nikunj? Yeah, eight. Senior living. This is something we invested in, funnily enough. Me and Hemant did this deal together. We did a couple in senior living. Were you part of that? I'm aware of it, but I was not part of it, no. Thoughts? The world will be older, senior living, affluent senior living well some of the fastest growing cities in the u.s are the villages in florida if there's something to be said you know about that model expanding to other countries um i think you know this one has like very awesome long-term you know prospects and especially in developing world as like people become um more affluent their kids are fewer they don't live with them, but they move for economic opportunity in other parts of the country or other parts of the world.

1:26:49You need this UA to be close to other elderly people and or individuals who are going to be able to help you. This particular deal we did together is a company called Primus. And the data he was showing us is if a 70-year-old man or woman is at his facility, which is a very affluent, like high-end senior living facility. The quality of life and the longevity of their life goes up by a significant premium because they have community. And he showed me this really crazy research. Like when my dad was sick, I got him a nurse. So then he didn't have to do anything. He didn't have to move. Somebody was doing everything for him.

1:27:36That's the worst thing you can do for your parent. It's very counterintuitive, but I think just that community, the having to play with someone, having some competition being organized, playing memory games, walking, all of that, with like aged people, changes everything. Absolutely, yes. If you read about Blue Zones, which are like the different parts of the world, where they have the highest percentage of people who are 100 years old plus, the shared trait that they all have to demonstrate is community. So like in Okinawa in Japan, in Nicaria in Greece, and like, you know, other parts. You're somebody, you know, who's like 100 years old, your kids might be dead or incapacitated, but because every day, you know, in your village, you're socializing and you feel like you have responsibilities, this is what keeps you going.

1:28:32We rated this highly in India, even though there is such a big societal stigma about senior living. I think the misconception one has is at a certain point with your parent, you're almost being selfish by keeping them at home with you versus allowing them to make more choices of their own. It's a hard thing, especially in India, to overcome. I don't know how it's in Greece. But, you know, because in Greece, again, you know, the standard of living went up and then the cost of living, cost of labor also, you know, went up. What saved a lot of families was like Eastern European labor talent that visited the country and stayed there as illegal immigrants and then got legalized.

1:29:21But in the beginning, you know, if you had your kid, your elderly parents sent to like a senior living facility, everyone would look down on you. So the preferred choice was to have somebody from Georgia or Romania, you know, do the work for you. But then you realized all the stuff that you mentioned, you know, that your dad or mom wouldn't interact with anyone else. The cognitive decline would be faster. So now, after like 30 years of doing what I said, some of the much better senior living businesses are looked up more nicely or favorably. You guys want to comment on senior living? Would you send your pens?

1:30:07It's a tough one. There is some bias against it, as you said, but maybe that decision will change over time. I think it depends on what they want to do as well. I do think in my particular case, I'm lucky that they have a good community already at home. So that does solve a bunch of the problems, but who knows how this goes. But generally on your question, in the US, very much. In the rest of the world, slightly less, just because there's different dynamics, social, intercultural dynamics in different parts of the world. There is also taboo and things like that. So I'm not as sure, but in America, hi.

1:30:50Nikush? Yeah, I think it's not a question of me sending our parents. Luckily, my parents and my grandparents live together. And I think that's nice from a community standpoint. And that's very rare. Not many people have that. Yeah, we're very lucky that everybody likes each other. But it's not a question of me sending my parents or not. It's a question of them choosing what to do. At the end of the day, we're three brothers. We all live in separate houses. They live in their own house. What do they want to do? I think it makes sense. I think both from a community standpoint, but as labor gets more expensive, like economies of scale standpoint as well.

1:31:36It just makes sense for more people at the same stage in life to live together. Would you guys like to rate the statement, Nico? Senior living? I'm like a nine. Eight. Yeah, nine. Like unless they're like infectious diseases like COVID, you know? Yeah. Senior living facilities are going to do really well. Yeah, no, some of these, like one of them with Primus, their plan is to have golf carts and you drive around inside the community. It's by a lake. It's not like living in polluted Bombay. Exactly. It makes a huge difference. Like just the air quality alone changes so much. Which air quality is one of the biggest killers in the world.

1:32:23And one of the reasons why people are having liver failures is because of the air pollution, you know, where they live. It's like, yeah, that's one of the biggest risk factors or health risk factors for life in the world. So any technology that's helping alleviate air pollution or making gasoline cars and other such things, you know, less prevalent will do really well. The next one is content. The theory we were discussing is with search being disrupted in the manner that it is, and people, let's assume, use Google a lot lesser or any kind of search platform that is throwing up ads. And if anyone wants to build a brand, social media might exist in some form, but Google ads and the likes of that will not work.

1:33:16To be able to build a brand, you have to be able to hold attention one way or another through some form of content. And video is working right now. So the alpha between a brand that does well and a brand that doesn't do well, content is going to be the biggest differentiator. Thoughts? That's the premise? Yeah. I very much agree with that. And like for every generation, if you know how to speak whatever you know, the medium where content gets viewed is fluently, you can do really well. So, for example, there is, you know, that Spanish olive oil grazia, I forget what it is, you know, that became like a$70 million plus, you know, business in a couple of years just because they know how to appeal to young people.

1:34:14Or like, are you today a hacker? Do you know how to speak X? We'll do well. Are you a young consumer founder who knows how to speak TikTok? You will do well. Yeah. And in a few years, we'll be talking something else. I don't know what that will be, but whoever knows how to play that game well, this is golden. Attention is all you need. I think Didi's doing well at that. Absolutely. You're doing pretty well yourself. What are you going to pivot into with all this attention that you have? I don't do content for any practical purpose, which is why I've never went into things like video. It's like saying I don't make money for any practical purpose.

1:34:58No, no, it's not the same. It's like, you know, everyone's presumably got an education with some goal of having some job. There's other reasons to do it, but having something. But I genuinely don't think I ever did anything online to get an audience or to have money or to have anything. Otherwise, I mean, what I would tell people is like, yeah, if you want to do content just for that purpose, then there's always easier ways to do it. You do humor, you do hot topics, you do very debatable, questionable things. And I mean, some would argue I have done some of that, but not much. I think that kind of content gives you a different kind of attention.

1:35:39The kind of content you're creating gives you trust. Relevancy. Relevance, in a very trust-oriented way. When I first started, one of my first kinds of things I would post about is just immigration. and the only reason I would do it is because I found myself telling all my friends the same thing over and over again. So I'm like, let me just write it down and then you can go read that. And so I don't see it as, for me at least, it was never meant to be a business. But to the statement, I mean, Nico definitely knows about this trend, but there's so many of these like 16, 17, 18 year old kids who out of nowhere, they come up with an app.

1:36:18But I think they're being brilliant. I was doing a call with Sam Altman and he told me the same thing. I was like, what should young people do? He said most of them look like they want to be influencers, but I think they have the best idea ever. Being influencers was the best idea ever? By creating content, because you're capturing attention. And if the attention can age, I don't mean tenure in the sense of it becomes old, but as you grow older, if your viewers grow with you in age as well, you keep their attention for a long time. Like look at Taylor Swift. It's insane, right? She could soon be the richest person in the world.

1:36:58I wouldn't be surprised. But then what I was going to say on the app one was it's not even them trying to be influencers. It's them actually figuring out how to do their own marketing strategy at almost nothing cost, right? What they will do is they'll pay off other people on Discord to make TikTok videos and then have some commission-based agreement. And then these apps are making millions and millions of dollars of money, of revenue, and they're sitting at home in their parents' garage going like, okay, well, I made all this money and I spent nothing. So I think it's not them being influencers, it's them figuring out how to tap in to the ecosystem to get distribution for the thing that they've built.

1:37:41Because what they identify, at least the examples I'm talking about, what they identified is all of these apps look the same. The only thing that matters is distribution. So let me go to the app store, figure out all the apps that are basically commodity, make my own, and then figure out distribution. That's my money. Storytelling matters, right? Storytelling matters. We're all psychers for amazing stories. So whoever knows how to tell a story in a very compelling way and get a lot of attention for it, because they speak the language of wherever stories get shared at that moment in time, this is super powerful.

1:38:15I'll take the other side. I think there's, in the last three years, there's been almost too much attention on attention. While I agree content helps you grab attention and attention spans are declining, I think there's too much empty calories. Like, I mean, same audience. I think we'll get it more from the lens of, let's say Nikunj Tomorrow is starting a chocolate brand or a t-shirt brand or any kind. Most of an economy is consumption, right? 60-70 % of money spent in the US is on QSR restaurants. Say you start a fast food restaurant in America. How do you find your audience if not for content?

1:38:55So my push there is like, there's two legs to a stool. There's too much attention on attention. It's like, and you get people in the door. But what is your way? Let's say Nikunj tomorrow starts selling some version of McDonald's. The best way is to have the best product. Even then, how are you discovered? like how traditionally everything has been discovered which is word of mouth I think there is still power in that I'll give you a good example Swati's restaurant in Ahmedabad it's in Bombay as well same food I go there every year it's always full and they've spent zero dollars in marketing forever, even in today's day and age where there's a million restaurants that restaurant is full every day by 5.30pm or 9pm and because the product is still phenomenal.

1:39:43But what are the odds of that for every swati that succeeded? I think that's why I said there's two legs to a stool. I think there's far too much attention on attention. Especially in today's economy, everybody wants a Twitter viral launch video, but the product f***ing sucks. And I don't think that lasts. You look at the churn number. The product has to be good regardless. No, but that is changed. Nowadays, there's so much attention on attention that people are discounting building a good product. Where they can kind of, Didi said, in a white-labeled world where you just have to build an okay product and its distribution matters, I think that will peter out in the long run.

1:40:19Won't the quality of with increased productivity by virtue of AI, won't the quality of a product get democratized to a large extent? I don't know. I think it's the 10 % problem. The last mile problem will forever be there. This is why Jiro still builds the same sushi 80 years later. And kind of contributes to that. I think I do believe this is why I'm thinking the opposite side I think there's too much attention and attention I do think you need eyeballs right like nobody comes to their restaurant and what's the point of building a restaurant but I think the product needs to be phenomenal in this AI age otherwise it's just slop like that's what happens like you know when TikTok trend goes viral 20 people copy it and 20 people copy the same app there is no differentiation and then you build a little bit of value but the only compounding value is retention can you build a retentive product where people come back and that only comes with quality.

1:41:13Think of some products that come to mind that have done really well at mass scale today. What do you buy often that you think is a spectacular product from a differentiation lens? Digital? Physical? Apple? You buy Airphones, yeah. Airphones? Is that because of the product or is that because of the attention? It's compounding advantages, right? Like it's, there's no attention. What does Apple spend money on? They spend money on ads. Comparatively, compared to their gross margin profile, their marketing spend is very low. Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I mean, this is obviously, I think it's kind of obviously true that you need retention and you need growth.

1:41:55But that's changing though. Last year, more than ever, I have felt this changing. That you think people don't focus on Yeah, like they look at Mr. Beast Feastables. The only reason it sells is because attention. The product, I've had it. It's horrible. Horrible for the kids. It's horrible for like... Why did you try it? Why? Because I was just curious. Yeah. But again, it's two legs to the same stool. I'm just saying there's far too much attention on one end. I think I'm focusing more on discoverability. Yeah. Because you get to that point and then comes the question of retention.

1:42:31Yeah. I mean, you need attention because now in a sea of the same, how do you differentiate yourself? content will always be the differentiator one way or the other. But I think it's going to be a revolving door if you don't focus enough on the product. The pendulum has swung on the other side is what I'm trying to argue, where I think it can go back to like, we need both, can't have one or the other. I'm looking at the last five-year bucket as the bucket of performance marketing, where you gave Google money to show your product in different places and you paid for the number of clicks. And I'm looking at what is the next transition from that.

1:43:07Yeah, I mean, discoverability, especially the consumer, it's all TikTok because it's the only free channel left. But if you build something that grabs attention, you get a lot of attention. Everything else has become pay-to-play. Should we rate this? Content? Importance of content in building a business. Nico? For anything that's like, you know, consumer-facing or consumer-facing, discoverability, it's like a 10. Didi? Yeah. Without that caveat, and I would say like 8 or 9, fairly important. Not the only thing. 7. Important, but not the only thing that's needed. Do you guys see a world where David is winning against Goliath?

1:43:52People don't want to buy from corporations, but they want to buy from individual brands? Yeah. I mean, we have to believe that one. We're in the business of backing David's. I think this is happening more and more with offline experiences. Where you want to, like in the universe of like tourism, right? You want to have the bespoke local artisanal guide. Or like the hotel that has its own story. Or go to the restaurant that's mom and pop, you know? Do you feel like this happened because the last 10-20 years, we bought products behind a corporation because trust was so deficit in society that we didn't know what went into it.

1:44:41Today, we care less about trust and we are buying artisanal, handmade. We are buying into individuality again. And is that a trend that's here to stay? I do like how you framed it. And it depends on the society that you live in and your economic participant. I would also add that very often you don't want to be buying the same brands that your parents were buying. It might be the case for detergent, but to go to the same hotel chain that they want, it's not as cool for you. So like every generation has its own cool brands, experiences that they resonate with. And a lot of the large corporations, at least in the West, have lost a lot of their brand equity with the youth.

1:45:37I mean, generally the question of David versus Goliath, you always, not in every situation, but Davids are a great bet to make. because Goliaths are usually bigger businesses. They have established practices. They lose their eye on the ball. They're focused on managing things at scale, sometimes reducing cost. So maybe not just the hotel example, but even for many other cases, most businesses do not have any systemic effects of scale that can't be disrupted in other ways. So yeah, in many cases, I would definitely bet on the David versus the Goliath. Of course, there are other cases where that is not a good bet.

1:46:15But yeah, older businesses will get disrupted generally for most industries. Nikuj, thoughts? Yeah, cycle of life will continue. Big gets too big, too horizontal, not enough depth. Small has that. And then from a consumption perspective, I think people will continue to stay away, which means they want the new thing. They want to differentiate themselves, and that will continue to want them to do whatever version of artisanal it might be. Perfect. Want to rate this? I just have like four more, and then I'll tell you how much you rated which one, and which is probably a good sector to focus on for the next decade.

1:46:55David versus Goliath, Nikunj? The 10 is pro-David and 0 is pro-Goliath, correct? Niko? I'm like an 8. I would say a 7, because there are some places where scale definitely matters, but in many cases they don't. One good example is in tech. Where you see something like six, seven companies that created the bulk of the market cap, if that's a way to measure it, over everyone else the last 30 years. So I had this thesis two years ago that by virtue of cost per mile or kilometer, most vehicles will become EV or hydrogen focused in a very short period of time. So I spent two years investing in everything from electric scooters, electric buses, trucks, even a flying electric taxi company.

1:47:56When I look back at it now, a lot of these bets did play off. But the adoption to EV seems to be slowing down. And subsidies are being taken away not just in the US, but also in countries like India and other places. What do you think is the future there for 2035? Adoption of electric vehicles and hydrogen versus IC? I think for somebody to buy a vehicle and let's pick a neutral country, right? That's not the US, it's not China, but one in Latin America or like a smaller country in Europe. The consideration would be what is the cost? How often would I need to maintain it? What's the cost of ownership?

1:48:45And you actually do see that a number of the Chinese car manufacturers that make EVs that here in the US you don't see on the street are actually winning. They're far ahead. Because the price and the total cost of ownership is pretty awesome. So when I visited, you know, different, you know, such countries over the last few, over the last year, like in Colombia or like in Portugal or like in Greece, I was seeing car-made brands that I had never seen before. Then I was Googling them and they're like massive. So do I think this is a trend that will continue? Yes. I do think it's a trend that will continue.

1:49:29Might not be everywhere, but in a lot of countries, because people want to have a car, it's a means for them to unlock more productivity and get to work and make more money. I do think this is a trend that's not going to stop. I'll give you the number in India. If you buy an EV scooter, it costs about$2 ,000. If you buy an IC scooter, it costs you about$1 ,000. But if you ride the scooter for 40 kilometers a day, on an EV scooter, you save$500 a year. Cost of running. and much easier to maintain because the number of parts are exponentially lesser. But still, adoption is not that high. Why do you think adoption numbers have slowed as much as they have in the US?

1:50:23Can it just be because the Chinese are making spectacular EVs which are years ahead of them and they don't want to even compete in that market anymore? What is it? Why did the subsidies go away even? I don't think you can buy any of the Chinese EV cars here, right? No, you can't. That's the biggest issue. If we were to truly operate like a free market, I think they would be doing really well. The same in India. Like, you can't buy Chinese vehicles. But are Americans not buying American EVs because they can't buy Chinese EVs? It's just a cost thing. I think it goes on to what Nico said. It's cost and convenience.

1:50:58There's not enough chargers, and it costs too much. If the cheapest car was an EV, everyone would buy an EV. Do you think that'll change in the next 10 years? What percentage of cars on the road in 10 years will be EVs? In America, I think it'll change. And that's primarily because of Tesla. That's the only car company that moves fast. And so if that's the only car company that is allowed to operate, then yeah. Then they will figure out how to get the cost down one way or the other. Do you say 100 % of cars will be EV in 10 years? I don't know, 100%, but I would say a majority of cars will be EV in 10 years, in my mind.

1:51:34A good proxy would be what percent of cars that are getting sold today are EV, right? And this could kind of tell you how the future might look like. Like around 20%, sub-20%. I don't know. So yeah, if that number is accelerating. It was accelerating, but the pace of acceleration has slowed down. Yes, and part of it is incentives. Part of it is the economic cycle. So whenever there is a slowdown in the economy, the used car market is doing much better than the new car market. Or like, you know, when we had the disruption with COVID in the supply chain, new cars became more expensive and harder, you know, to buy because you would have to wait for longer.

1:52:21So these factors do, but do I think that like EVs anywhere in the world are going to be the majority of cars over the next 10 to 15 years? Yes, I do think so, yeah. I think we dramatically overestimate how fast people will adopt new things and cars are a big asset in the country. It's like saying America will build 10 million homes. We won't. It's just harder. And the US, especially from a market perspective, used car market is massive, always has been boom or bust. And it's very hard to just change it. Like new cars will be built, but they're far more expensive. And so I actually think without the incentives...

1:53:05In 10 years, one could argue they won't be more expensive. They'd probably be cheaper. They'd likely be cheaper. This is where like, if the free market depends on where you're sourcing it from, does it have to be US made? Then no. it can still source from a free market. If free market existed, I would be very pro. And I have two EV cars at home, just to be clear. I would be very pro, like, oh, we'd see 10 % of the market be EV. But otherwise, it'll be a slow trickle till these cars go out of life. Another vector to consider, perhaps, is in places where we have a lot of autonomous vehicles adoption, if indeed the total cost of operation, or like an autonomous vehicle, is you've got to be EV first, then you know, that's another market that's going to be growing very quickly, right?

1:53:54Want to rate it? Nico? I think I'm like a seven or an eight. Yeah. Seven. Seven to the statement that by 2035, majority of cars will be EV? Yeah. America? No, worldwide. Oh, seven. Probably less. I mean, it depends on China, India, Nigeria, Brazil, Indonesia. I think those countries will adapt faster because of efficiency. The amount of energy lost between generation and endpoint usage is lower in EVs. And people will adopt there because the cost to travel per mile will be lower. Yeah. And what if I would say to you, not in India, but in China, a huge air pollution problem. The Chinese government says, hey guys, from now on, you want to buy like a gasoline car?

1:54:51No problem. It's going to be like 50 % more expensive. The same is happening already. Like in India, many cities are saying that if you're bringing a truck into the city, if it's not EV, it's not allowed. Oh, there you go. So that's again, another vector that pushes demand even further, right? But then why only seven? Because I'm not as fluent in the exact numbers and it depends on like these four or five big very populous countries, right? Right. I think if it's new cars, like 100 % of new cars or new cars in 2035, yeah, that'd be like a seven. Oh, it's for new cars. I was thinking like total cars.

1:55:31Let's say for new cars. Oh, then I'd be like eight. Yeah, I'm like nine, you know? Yes. Same? Yeah, because I was thinking, you know, the average lifetime of a car in a bunch of countries, like in 12 years. I was trying to do that math. Yeah, that was it. You're doing the VC math in your head. Nine as well? I think eight, primarily because I think, especially in the US, like with the conservative government, like oil and gas is not going anywhere. It'll take a long time for us to like move. Like from a politics perspective, EV force is not going to be very popular for the next six years. But from a cost perspective, the cost of everything else compared to fossil is falling so quickly.

1:56:14But the problem is batteries, again, it's like American choice. Like, you know, it's like I can go fill up my petrol pump wherever I want. I can go to a gas station. I can kind of like have this, I don't want to wait for 45 minutes. Convenience is, battery technology is not evolving fast enough. Like we, I'll give you an example. We invested in this electric truck company, which has interchangeable batteries, like battery swap. The largest company which does battery swap in the world is called Sani in China. So these trucks drive with two batteries at a time. They go to something which is as small as one container box.

1:56:52And the batteries are swapped in the same amount of time that it would take for you to stop at a gas station and fill fuel. Each battery gives you a range of 700 kilometers. So two batteries together let you drive 1 ,400 kilometers. India end-to-end, let's say, is, I don't know, 4 ,000, 5 ,000 kilometers. What that means is the number of petrol stations that you require in itself come down exponentially. You probably only need 50 container-sized stations across the country to get these trucks to go across the length and breadth of the country. I think the model is changing significantly, even for a country as broad and wide as India.

1:57:38I think replacement as you mentioned like 8 I won't be a 10 because it will still be choice and people will it takes a while to flow in like even today I disagree with Dede like charging stations are good enough like every in America infrastructure is already there people are still voting to not buy EV cars even though they're cost appropriate it just takes time for people to change right okay point number 8 of 10 beauty as a category? Beauty products. Ten. Yeah? Same. Yeah? Yeah, beauty and content are in line with each other. I mean... Look who are the wealthiest, you know, like people outside of tech.

1:58:20Anyone who's in beauty and luxury. Yeah. Luxury. Beauty and luxury. Yeah. Luxury also ten? No, anything. I was saying, who are the wealthiest, you know, like individuals or families outside of technology, anyone who's in beauty or in luxury goods. Should I just add them and make them one beauty luxury? And then like if we want to take a glimpse into the future, we would go into South Korea, where indeed they have one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, but they're massive exporters of culture. And over there, if you're a man, there is a more than 50 % chance that you use beauty products every single day.

1:59:06Yeah. So like again you know this guy's population you know will shrink but if everyone was like 80 years old looks like a 50 year old that's a good trade for most people. And the surgeries in South Korea. We've been ideating what to build in beauty. We're trying to come up with something. Any ideas? What could work as a product category? In beauty? Yeah. Now? Like beauty gives you confidence right? No but if I want to build a brand in beauty? Like we have a team which does a lot of consumer brands that we run, not just invest in. If we build for beauty, what do you think would work in today's taste cycle?

1:59:47Can you help me eliminate my wrinkles? Right. I would pay for that. Could you make buttocks, you know, 90 % cheaper? I would pay for that. Right. Anti-aging? And anything anti-aging that's more easily to get to and cheaper. Yeah, I think for men to make it more accessible and cooler with content, you could do that. Yeah. You could do that too. I have the opposite take. I think I would build like a very high-end luxurious brand for like the top 10 % of Indian males. For Indian males. You're talking about India, right? No, not necessarily. But yeah, I'd take the opposite route. Which is like, I'd take if, take hard problems like anti - I'm guessing you fall into the top 10%.

2:00:36So would you buy? Yeah. What would you buy? Would you buy like makeup? I think this is where like, also the other aspect to it's like invisible. What is invisible today? Is there like an invisible foundation that makes me look five years younger? Sure. Yeah, you would. I know nothing about beauty, but I mean, I think there's, all of these things are credible. I think there is a gap in male beauty, but I think women are obviously the primary consumers of beauty products. So there's a lot you can do there. I just, I know nothing about it. I mean, look into a Zen pick, you know. Most people take it.

2:01:12It is beauty. Every week. It's a beauty product, yeah. Because they don't want to have be on a diet. Yeah. Like I know a lot of people like us. Yeah. Or in their 30s or 40s. Everybody. They've never had any, you know, issues with their weight. But they don't want to be on a diet. They want to eat everything. They take a Zen pick. It's a beauty product. Yeah. I'm guessing longevity and wellness you guys will rank highly as well. Tents? Yeah, it's a question of affordability, so I would be a nine, you know. Longevity and wellness? Yeah. For you? Yeah, I think like at what price point matters, but as a category, yeah.

2:01:50Nine? I'm more of an eight. It's like anti-recession. I mean, have you guys ever like taken a flight that's connecting through Istanbul and Turkey? Of course. What do you see there? The Great Airport. Great airport, yeah. Isn't that freaking insane? Where was that industry like 10 years ago? Yeah. Wasn't there. Yeah. And now thanks to TikTok and content, it has become like a global destination. Live events. Concerts, theaters, plays. I would even put something like a high-end restaurant as a live event. I think the nature of live events is shifting to people want to advertise that they were at a live event on their Instagram predominantly.

2:02:37I think that's the main purpose for most people that go to live events. Or others do it on your behalf and you lose your job as the whole world learned last week. Everyone wants to go to a good Coldplay concert. But generally I'm more neutral on live events because I do think attention capture is going to be more massive on digital. And so there is going to be a smaller set of people in my mind that want to go to live events. Yeah. Net volume, maybe not a number, but the net volume of time spent at a live event, I don't really have a strong view that it goes up. I actually don't know. Nico, what do you think?

2:03:24I think most live events historically have been like shit businesses to run. but in a world where the offline experiences become the scars, in a world where we get tired of being online in front of our screens for 14 hours, there's going to be a premium. You mentioned Taylor Swift. There's a reason why she's a billionaire. She's figured out how to make so much money from her super funds. And to the extent more and more Taylor Swift exists, which I think will be the case in the individualistic, driven society that we live in today, live offline experiences will do really well. And it could be a restaurant, you know?

2:04:07Like, what if, you know, the Japanese, you know, sushi surf you mentioned was more capitalist driven. Wouldn't you want to do it in front of like a massive arena, you know, or tour the world and do it? No, no, scarcity matters though. I think scarcity is never going. That's a good point, yeah. Yeah, scarcity will never go away. desirability comes from scarcity so what are the rate live events Nico I'm like you know like an 8 okay 5 okay yeah I think philosophically I want more live events but I'm indeed even short term it's like a 6 like where we'll move towards live events again you know like they're mostly shit businesses but like look into like what happened with the World Cup for like the clubs for soccer in the US.

2:04:58Like this was a brand new revenue stream out of nowhere. Like the winner pocketed over 100 million, you know, dollars, Chelsea. With the Europeans, you know, snobs and we don't care about it. But if the numbers, you know, go up, which is likely in the future, would you pay attention to it? Probably you would. But I bet still that digital coverage of soccer will have a higher percentage than eyeballs and viewership perspective, percentage of time perspective, than live events. But supply and demand comes in there, right? Like the supply of digital is for everyone. The novelty of live is... Yeah, but I think that's what we're betting on.

2:05:36My way of giving a score is like, what do you think percentage of time goes up in live events versus digital? I would bet screen time goes up higher than live event time. And then my response to you, Niko, I think there's more concentration in live events, but not necessarily net volume increase. I think more people gravitate to the Coldplay concerts, the Taylor Swift concerts, the Chelsea game. But, you know, I think most events that are not places you want to be seen are not that interesting to most people. That's why when you look into most ticketing businesses that serve the long tail, they're really shit.

2:06:08They can't make money, nobody shows up, people don't pay. Okay, last one, climate tech. What is climate tech? What's the definition? carbon capture the thesis behind the statement is someday soon I mean it could be carbon credit trading if there were one large event where say 10 ,000 people die say there's a flood in Miami the water levels keep rising suddenly everybody will go back to climate and start taking it very seriously climate tech could even be software like I was at this I'm part of this group called the Gates Pledge where I think your colleagues a couple of them are there one of them is there and there was this professor this year who was showing a model that he had built where the base case is world's temperature will rise by 1.6 degrees by 2100 and what can you tweak in this software that changes it is it a carbon tax is it lesser amount of coal?

2:07:14Is it more allocation to nuclear? There are funds like Breakthrough Energy which are working on this. So all of this somehow comes into climate tech. Yeah, I mean, we need to do something about it. The challenge is, you know, that for many humans, it's hard to relate. Even if I live in Miami and there's a huge flood and I lose my home, then I might move somewhere else and I might forget about it. Or my local politician, you know, who is responsible for coming up with subsidies or incentives. That stuff, like, you know, doesn't get them necessarily reluctant in the next, you know, cycle. Actually, fair point.

2:07:52There was a fire here in California and everyone's forgotten about. Yes. We forget. It's really unfortunate. I mean, same place to health stuff. Like, you know, we had COVID and, you know. Nobody remembers COVID. I think, you know, Nico Moderna remembers their stock price is down from 400 to 30 bucks God bless this guy I think climate tech is an overloaded term because it means so many things and a lot of it is a bad word especially in venture for a bunch of historical reasons but energy, I think unambiguously positive and energy is a big part of climate so You mean like renewable energy? All energy.

2:08:36How do we get cheaper, better, more sustainable energy? Yes. So everything from nuclear to solar to geothermal, I mean, different. Can we have fusion, right? Yeah. Different propensities of working. And I think that is climate tech. I mean, if we can figure out how to get energy in a hyper dense way, then we won't need to solve all these other problems. Yeah. Geothermal fits into climate. So energy, yes. Rest of climate tech, amiguis on definition. You can come up with creative solutions, right? Like whenever in the world we have massive volcanic eruptions, there is a cooling of the temperature on the planet.

2:09:16So could we do any of that in ways that is safe for all the industries and the humans that are running on the planet? It could be powerful. are like finding creative ideas, you know, to have a very positive effect in an economic manner. Like, could we paint all of this a hard desert, you know, in a way that's reflecting, you know, back some of the heat? Who knows? The challenge, it's a very complex, you know, space. It's like trying to cure cancer. Like, cancer is not one, you know, disease, you know. And every little one of these solutions contribute, but then you pay attention to subsidies and capital and labor intensive, and it's more project finance.

2:10:03I think there's a subtler point in all of this stuff because, you know, Nikolai, I know you're going to ask this as an investment lens. And so being bullish on a lot of these things doesn't necessarily make them easy investments because you look at biotech, you look at energy, it's just the failure rate is so high that you might be like, of course these things matter, but investing in these things may probably lose me money in most cases. But if you remove the venture lens and you buy the incumbent with a moat, you at least want to be in a sector you think has statements. Perhaps, yeah. I think that's fair to say.

2:10:36Yeah, because I'm not looking at it from the venture lens. I'm looking at it from my investment lens overall. So I'm going to say climate tech, energy, largely. Would you bet on that number, Didi? I would say it's, you know, all of AI is built on more compute and energy. So that is one reason, but nine, nine. Nikunj? Yeah, I mean, if I had to bet an agnostic of where else I could put my dollars, if I had to bet on climate, yeah, I would definitely put like seven. Nikunj? Yeah, I would be an eight because like we need more energy. This is one of the ways you boost productivity. that's one of the ways you boost economic growth.

2:11:18AI is like a hog for energy. But I actually think the world gets worse in the near term because energy will become the fundamental limiter, which means we will frack more, we'll pull more from the ocean because nuclear fission and fusion will still take time to build. You can't build solar panels fast enough. That's why I was like a seven. I'm like, do I believe climate tech will solve? Yes, but it'll take a longer time period. but the world will get much worse in the next 10 years from a climate change perspective. So data centers, at least back home in India, have become like a real estate play almost.

2:11:53Everyone and their cousin and uncle and auntie are building data centers. Makes sense. Who built apartments up until yesterday. Do you think bubble now? Not yet. No. Bubble if you buy into it now? The multiples are not high. You get these companies at 16 to 20 EBITDA, depending on which geography you pick, data center businesses. You think it's a good place to get allocation? But do you have any real estate arbitrage? Do you have any energy arbitrage? Everyone has a different narrative. One is near a power station. One is also a real estate player. So they have real estate arbitrage. Different people have different things.

2:12:34India has, we mandated that financial data of Indians has to stay in India. And as much as a big chunk of data created is in India. So if they mandate that all Indian data has to be in India, it becomes a huge risk. I think that's a very good narrative that will be driving local pockets of demand in many different countries. And then can you bet on the operator that over time will be the consolidator? Yeah. Like if you can find that awesome entrepreneur, I think it could be a good trade. I still think it's underrated. I think the amount of compute in each country... Don't you think compute will get more efficient with time?

2:13:10Will need less space in a data center? But we'll continue to use more and more of it. You think? I mean, Google just announced they doubled their token usage in three months. Google. I think we're just at the very early innings of how much token usage. Even with efficiency, we're going to use far more compute. Even with chips getting better, we'll still use more. I don't think that goes away for the next 10 years. And then each country will use compute and energy as their, it's like a nuclear weapon, like you will have this. You will want to keep ownership of this. Right now, it's a big geopolitical risk where Saudis especially and other countries are holding this, whether it's chips or energy.

2:13:57And that becomes a strategic geopolitical asset for them. India will not want to be left behind. Rate it? Data centers and investment, nine. It depends on the person. Today, Nico, what 20, 30 are you for? Again, it's an exceptions business, so we'll be back at 7. Because you've got to pick the right operator that has all the other, you know, right conditions. But as a broader trend, yes, it will be a 7. I'm actually lower because I think, yes, there's a need for compute, but like to Nico's point, there's so much that goes into running a data center. Do you have the skills? How often do you have to renew the hardware?

2:14:37What are the hardware you're putting into that? How much does that cost? How much are you selling it for? There's a lot of things that go into the business of data centers. So yes, will data centers exist? And generally, yes. There'll be more and more, but some data centers are extremely bad businesses. Multiples have not been also good. Sorry, yeah. Multiples haven't been good, and there's ways to really fuck that up. You can buy a bunch of NVIDIA and then sell inference, and you might be making pennies on the dollar. So, you know, it really depends. So overall, I would say six. I'm going to ask you advice on a few companies I've been reviewing when I'm here.

2:15:15I had a thesis that when we all have more time at hand, when abundance comes about and productivity goes up, I wagered a guess that humans will go back to what they always intrinsically did. One big activity is speculation. So I was speaking to companies like Kalshi and Polymarket. What do you think of them as investments? Forget the regulation side of it. Forget one is US, one is outside. I love it. Gambling is a good investment. I mean, gambling will always be good as long as it's legal. So people, it's a vice. It's a vice investment. People like to speculate and make money off of it. You think even today at the crazy multiples that they're at?

2:15:59Yeah. I think so. I mean, the more people come in, more of those markets become liquid. They become more investable. They become market makers. More institutional players might come on. There's a whole bunch of things that can happen around prediction markets. So I think it's a great thing. I would like it. I think you said forget regulation. Forget regulation because she's regulated in the US. Polymarket is more on the blockchain, peer-to-peer betting, more international customers. I'm guessing Robinhood will soon figure out whether they're a partner or they're going to replicate what they could maybe easily replicate.

2:16:36There's so many moving parts when it comes to regulation. I don't know how to put it in a box. Yes, like assuming that regulation is like sold, you know, for the category. Is this going to be a great category? Yes, I think it's a great category because it's entertainment. You already have evidence from several of these that the consumer eyeballs, you know, are really there. you have like a well-driven business model for some of these that really works for other industries the margins can be pretty awesome depending on how much the regulators would want you to part with them and then the new cycle is great news for all of these businesses so overall again, regulation risk aside pretty bullish about the category yeah so I mean the class of entertainment as a whole especially with abundance there's going to be infinite money and time do you bet Nikuj I feel like you're closeted something in your outside no no no I play I play poker quite frequently I feel like there's another version of Nikuj that he doesn't let on I no I play poker you have to deny it now don't you top 2 % of sports batters worldwide I play FIFA a lot what's your vice Nikunj?

2:17:59what's my vice?

2:18:03probably just like yeah probably poker it's like I spend a lot of time playing poker is not a vice come on get creative I don't have you're so composed on the outside inside has to have something else going on no I've always been like my friends growing up always called me like a granddad I've always been that way. I like sleep. Did you enjoy being called a granddad? Yeah, I have no problem. Not no problem. Did you like it? Yeah, I was like perfectly fine with it. I don't know, something about like, maybe I have more wisdom than the average person. Maybe the vanity side of it could be. But... You're very young.

2:18:41That's such a granddad answer too. I don't see the vanity of wisdom. I see the vanity in many things. but the older person kind of vanity, I don't see why it appeals to a young boy. I don't know. I've never been... Yeah, I... Maybe I've just been very comfortable like, you know, like I want to go to sleep at 9pm. Sleep at 9pm. I know that's your projection. Yeah. No, that is... Loving husband, two kids, electric cars. You should ask my wife. Yeah. How did you meet your wife? I met in high school. This is just like textbook. Fairytale. No, but the craziest thing about our life story is we never dated.

2:19:24We never lived together. I just knew her for 10 years. And then one day I asked her, would you marry me? And she said, f*** no. And then I convinced her. Two months later, we got engaged. More textbook. Right? Yeah. I wish I had the time to poke it. Not today though. Not today. I wonder if you asked ChatGPT, describe me in three words based on everything that it knows. I'll just try it now. I would love to know what it says. My phone's there. We can try it now. I can try it right now. What model should we use? I don't know. O3? O3 is probably the... O3? Of course. Like O2? I have O3 Pro. Based on everything...

2:20:09That might take a while. You know, yeah. Not me. Oh my God, you know. Describe me. We're going to burn a few trees in the rainforest, you know. Just to know. just to know too much energy I'm actually super curious now he probably watches what he says to Chachipiti as well no no I actually have never used because that's somebody else keeping your data for you right no I actually Chachipiti knows me probably better than anybody else in life wow is that a good thing including the wife no it has to be because I spend so much time sharing your thoughts everything I write everything I talk about everything like Every thought goes through it.

2:20:49I'm fully bionic that way. It says, oh, I hate the last one. It says analytical, proactive, visionary. I don't think the last two, but the other two probably true. That's great. New LinkedIn headline. Now tell Chad GPD, tell me the truth. Tell me the real truth. That's funny. This is the real podcast. I love this.

2:21:20assessing the real truth. Let's see. Normally, I'm like a little bit more robing. But today, we're so many people and we're talking about something I want to get out of the way. Yeah, fair enough. Superpowers. Pattern spotter, relentless editor, agency amplifier. Can I write the... Yeah, go for it. Please be funny. Yeah. I'm going to write... speak like Jung, a therapist I really like.

2:21:55What are my shadow traits I don't want to take cognizance of? So Chris Pack did this thing called slash Graham on Dia browser. Did you guys see this? No, what is it? It basically psychoanalyzes you. Slash what? It's called slash Graham, based on Graham Duncan, who did this basically prompt. It's a very good prompt. It goes through your Twitter and just like psychoanalyzes you. I posted mine online so you can see it, what it said about me. And so everything I thought through, everything, yeah, what did it say? It's reflecting right now. You could also ask if he's a gambler. I can ask him. My biggest vice is poker.

2:22:38What are my biggest vices, Chajipiti? Tell me. Okay, this is getting better. Oh my, you're an expert prompter. I love it. What does it say? The tyrant of efficiency. It's true. Counts seconds like coins and curses every idle breath. That is true. The specter of control. Fears chaos more than failure. Maybe. The armor of intellect. A polished exterior forged from logic and data. Deflects feelings both yours and others. the mirror of validation reflects only on achievement each milestone fades the moment it is reached demanding the next brighter proof the shadow of exhaustion invisible at first it vimpers that stamina is limitless ignore it long enough and it steps forward as burnout better deep but not that different What do you say?

2:23:43Better. Like, a little bit less filtered. I wrote a post called I'm Not Good Enough that talks about every failure I've had in life. This is where humans are better than AI. We're vulnerable. Yeah. You can use it, you know, for advantage. Okay, let's read speculation. Like Polymarket? Yeah, Polymarket, Kalshi. Kalshi, all of that stuff. I mean, without regulation, I'm a 10. Okay. I'm a 9, you know, without regulation. Okay. Nine. Especially if you can include, it's like part of entertainment for me. Nice. Okay, so when we spoke about how the world will change, let me first summarize what got the highest marks.

2:24:24So we said, beauty and luxury is like a great sector to build in. 30 out of 30. Followed by speculation and gambling. great sector to build all vice businesses vanity yeah it's just vanity yeah followed strangely by education which is outcome based yeah then came world older sicker senior living content EV adoption yeah those had the same number that's interesting we'll put this up on a chart and we'll say what each of you said and why they said it, I feel like this is very useful data, both for capital allocators like us, but also if I'm a young kid looking to start something, it allows me to extrapolate a rate of growth.

2:25:23So at least I have some tailwind in the industry that I'm building. Right? I would disagree with that last bit. Yeah, why? I think so much about building is more about where your unfair advantage is, not where the macro is going. And so I think, you know, take beauty for an example. Like I'm sure some of us have friends. I have friends building in beauty. Often, I think, you know, not doing a great job is not because I don't believe in beauty. I think you don't have any unfair right to win. You don't, you're not doing this correctly. So I think that that's a bigger part of the equation for me, especially when, you know, young people come to you for advice, then you're not going to say just because I think beauty products are going to do well, that you should go build a beauty product.

2:26:06Those are not, you know, synonymous. Are you still going to contest that your unfair advantage is distribution because of content? For me? Yeah. On what? On anything you want to build tomorrow. A hundred percent. That's one of them, yeah. The main one? Probably. It's probably the rarest one. I mean, I would say I have some unfair advantage on like selling to big enterprises, but so many other people do. Are you worried that you might be perceived as a content creator versus all the other stuff that you do and hence you try and push it away? Yeah, 100%. I don't like people perceiving me as that.

2:26:40I think it's a terrible tagline. I don't want to be called an influencer or a content creator. Why not? Why not? Yeah. Because this is, I think it comes with an association that I do not enjoy, right? Like I do it for a certain kind of reason and I don't think most people who do it do it for that same reason. And I think when you use the label, then people interpret it for the latter. They think you're doing it for fame, glory, yada, yada, yada. And I don't think I am. And so therefore, I don't like the label. But isn't it like a form of storytelling, form of art? If you called it a storyteller, I would be like, call me that all day.

2:27:17There you go. But it's very different than calling somebody an influencer. Isn't every influencer a storyteller at the end of the day? I don't think so. That's definitely not true. Tell me one very popular influencer who doesn't tell stories well. I don't want to dis on some people. Let's say this. If you go on some of the top Twitter profiles on X or whatever, on X, most of them are not telling stories. They are inciting rage. That's not, you could argue that's some kind of story, but that's not really a story. They're not trying to convey anything meaningful. It's rage bait. They're largely taking the contrarian narrative to the populist one, right?

2:28:04Some of them. I think there's a couple of trends. One of them is that. But a lot of people can be popular on various different platforms doing things that don't involve storytelling. What you're also saying is... Sharing nude photos of yourself. I mean, yeah, exactly. You're telling some kind of story. Have you done that? Have I done it? Not like, you know, for popular demand. Yeah. Yeah, haven't. I suspect you're left-leaning. Left-leaning? Almost socialist. Almost socialist. Just because he's Greek? How so? I don't know. Just the things you're saying. Things I'm saying, yeah. There was a distaste for capitalism which came across when you said something earlier.

2:28:49Well, I've been working in the US for the last 15 years. As a capital advocate. Clearly I'm confused, you know? Yeah. Fair point. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to ask you guys for another opinion on a company called Harvey, Harvey AI. Thoughts? Legal tech, legal AI. Wow, these are very... These are companies I've been meeting in the last two weeks. And I've been trying to figure out how to maybe do something with them. Allocation. It's difficult to get answers out of VCs on companies like this. Why? In my understanding. Do you have exposure? Yeah, there's no incentive for us to ever share a negative view on anything.

2:29:29No, I think Harvey's a great company. But in general, asking VCs about companies is bad because if they're invested, they have to be positive. And if they're not, they still have to kind of be positive. Okay, with the caveat that you're not invested, you can give me a more objective opinion. Not on camera. I never get it on camera. You just can't. Basically, every company you're going to ask us about, all of us are going to say great things. That's what's going to happen almost no matter what, unless it's a clear disaster company. Nico might. You know. You might say, I don't know, you're going to say anything bad about a company?

2:30:01I mean, you can give some criticism, you know. Would you go all out? You wouldn't, right? I don't know as much about, you know, a hard way to give you an informed opinion, okay? And I'm not saying that to sound politically correct. But do I think they're building on the right side of history? They are. Have they been amazing at signing up a lot of the largest law firms on the planet? They have. Has this led to them achieving a capital, like fundraising advantage? It has. Has this translated into them recruiting amazing people? It has. Is their product the best in the space? I have no idea. Not close, you know, to the company.

2:30:46but as you know Nikunz was saying the product has to be really good because authorities for better or for worse after FOMO goes away they do care about these things given where they are now probably you would get a really good informed opinion about them if you talk to many of their customers who have been bombarded by everyone else and their mother who have been starting AI legal tech companies that's actually one of the spaces we miss here that have been so busy. So if someone is starting now, a new legal tech company is in Series A, probably you would say no to, you know, in the US, because that's so busy.

2:31:25I have the opposite take on that. I think, not on Harvey, but I'm saying in general, especially with the RL focus and model stabilizing, I think the era of second mover advantages starts this year. Or starts now, basically. We'll start seeing, even companies started three years ago, be disrupted by a better product. Now, David, where this is Goliath will be, in just three years, can the better product out-distribute them or not? But for example, if somebody came in with a seed series A bet that takes in an established giant, not Harvey, but in general in any area, but they have clearly a better product, I would still be interested in at least exploring that bet, even though they've been out-distributed.

2:32:13just because we're seeing such crazy advances on the technology side. And the stacks are leaner, gross margins are better. The question is just about distribution. If it's as great as you sound, please give us a call. Can I ask, what is India's play in all this? I'm talking to young entrepreneurs in India. Where does India fit in? You can be candid. Don't say on camera, I won't say this, that, and the other. I think a big problem in many parts of life is when we don't recognize that there is a problem. I don't think you can find a solution if you don't first get there. And that's where I think what you mentioned before is important.

2:32:58Like having a knowledge of where the trends are happening and where, you know, the growth is going to be. Sure, you always want to play, you know, for your strengths, but isn't it even more amazing when you can play, you know, towards your strengths in the biggest market opportunities? Like I find myself incredibly lucky that, you know, 17 years ago I said I'm going to go and have a career in tech because none of my friends, the people I grew up with, you know, did that. And it's just a lucky accident, you know, for me. So just knowing where the trends are heading to is important for the youth.

2:33:37Yeah. I mean, I can give a couple of thoughts on India and AI. Generally, I've been somewhat public about this too. And some people have not liked it. But I think unlike other things, other kinds of technology in the past where you could create a local economy with that technology. I mean, for example, you have your even sharing services and the gig working boom. So Oyo existed in India just like an Airbnb would or you have an Ola just like an Uber. you can create local versions of those businesses that work for that area and you're not really competing unless that other company comes and tries to compete in that area.

2:34:29On AI, I don't think there is any local advantage. So I think everyone is competing on the same playing field. And there are a couple of common things that come up that people say, hey, these could potentially be local advantages. One is, okay, let's get data for languages in India. Like, yeah, that's great. I think that's perfectly valid. If Google doesn't pour more resources and try to get the same thing and you have an advantage, that makes sense. I like that view. But for most other things, I think I would love to see, I would say, India try to compete on that global scale. And that needs capital.

2:35:08That needs talent. that needs just a desire to want to be on the cutting edge. And in my mind, it's not there yet. I mean, I think that's empirical. None of the top models are Indian models. They're American and they're Chinese in any field. I mean, audio, video, image. So I would say in the global playing field of AI, I mean, the most prominent Indian figures are probably somebody like an Arvin, that perplexity, or maybe some of the researchers at some of these labs. and things like that. So therefore, in my opinion, today, I wouldn't say they're competing at a global level. I don't know if people on the ground have ambition to, but I think there's a couple of gaps to be filled if you do have that ambition.

2:35:55I mean, the ambition is definitely there. What can India do to get competitive in this realm? I think one of the things that is, I'll say an observation first and I'll answer the question. I think one of the observations I have in general about how India reacts to technology is India reacted to AI like, I want to be a part of this well after this was a thing. And that general mindset will rarely make you win at a thing. And so if you compare that to China, for example, I mean, there are many differences. I mean, China has had so much local talent, so much development in math, so much research in AI for many, many years pre-LLMs that allowed them to then capitalize on that and go like, okay, look, we can probably do something here too.

2:36:47We have the base built out. And I think for India to do something in AI, like, I don't know if a lot of that base is built out. There's a huge talent leakage problem. Most of the top AI talent in India is here, right? and literally a three square mile radius from where we are. There's a talent problem, there's a comp problem. Why would an AI researcher want to be paid in rupees? I don't. I want to be paid a million dollars or a hundred million dollars like they're getting paid here. And then there's a general systemic problem on account. Just capital is a little bit harder to get and then resources are harder to get and then people haven't done work on GPUs in India.

2:37:25If you go into Bangalore today, how many people have ever programmed a GPU? It's very hard to do anything in AI if you've never programmed a GPU. If you're starting from scratch, you're going to have to catch up. So I think there's a lot of systemic factors. And then to solve that problem, invest in core research, figure out how to keep talent in the country. And you have to do it a long time before something picks up for you to be able to take advantage of that. There's no accident that China was able to take advantage of that. They had a lot of foundation built in many, many years. So that's my take.

2:37:59I've spent half my life here, most of my professional life, all my professional life here, so I don't have a view on the India market. A lot of things Didi says, I echo. But I do think we have to kind of, the best, I think India has a two-decade advantage from a pure median age perspective. The youngest talent in the world is in India right now. And I feel like if you don't capture it in the next two decades, that shifts to Africa or shifts to the next country. And I feel, I don't know what the answer is, but I would love to see us capture the advantage there, at least from a pure, being in the prime perspective, India is in prime from a population standpoint.

2:38:40And the depth of talent and the depth of young people. So that's one, that's the optimistic side. Now, what do you do with it is the main problem. And I kind of echo differently than Didi, You don't need the best AI researcher. I mean, it would be great if India had a lot of great AI researchers and they all stayed there, but the brain drain problem has been true for the past 50 years and will continue to stay true. All the best Indian entrepreneurs I know are trying to move here. But you try to figure out where in the playing field do you play? Freshworks is a great example where they took a product but figured out the right markets for it.

2:39:18Is there products in this new AI application era or are there products in the biotech space? India has insane amount of talent and hospitals and vaccines, like centers out there, like manufacturing side. Take manufacturing as a sector. Like, you know, the China N plus one model can really benefit India. So take the sectors it's going to be phenomenal at and then go from the very bottom up to the top and see how can you allocate capital, people, training to win those markets versus play the Me Too movement. I feel like a lot of Indians I meet in India just like have this envy and they look at the US market and they want to be in the US market versus play the games you're going to be excellent at and then find ways to...

2:40:00I mean, the things I mentioned, again, but I don't know the India market as well. But I do believe the China N plus one is happening. It's 100 % happening from a manufacturer. Not an AI. Not an AI. But as I'm saying, don't miss the AI board, but play on the application level, which I think India still has fantastic product engineers and designers who can go build that. That's a talent that is easily portable from the pre-AI era. And then pick the markets where it's going to be excellent at. I don't know if that's minerals. I don't know if that's mining. I don't know if that's robotics. I don't know the India market, but instead of playing the me too side, like, hey, I want to do this also, find it's going to be excellent at and then concentrate capital in people there.

2:40:41Wouldn't you guys just say that now is probably the best time it's ever been for a young prospective founder to ever become active in India. Because, you know, access to knowledge. Relatively. Relatively, yeah. To our own bust. Exactly. So access to knowledge, thanks to your podcast and everyone, you know, being part of the global internet generation, it's no longer a problem. Yeah. The size of the local market, it's been, you know, larger than it's ever been. There are enough, you know, India for the world companies that are now setting the bar pretty high. There are enough very successful founders on the ground like yourself or like over here in the U.S.

2:41:32that anyone can look up to. I would be, you know, very excited to not even consider, you know, moving to the U.S. or maybe come here for a couple of years and then go back and build. By the way, just on that previous one, I want to say, I was just talking about foundational AI layer for apps and everything else in the AI layer, 100%. Many reasons to do stuff in India. Could that be the bigger market tomorrow? 100%. It is, already. I mean, I don't understand, for example, why Indian doesn't have more amazing gaming companies, you know? That could be global leaders for the world. Because the amount of money required to build a AAA game is substantial and the risk capital for that is not there.

2:42:14But you don't need AAA games. But I think it, exactly, yeah. I think the future of gaming is largely not going to be AAA. Like in a world where everyone is part of the internet generation, the more brains you have online, the more creativity you can unlock. With AI, everyone has superpowers. And we have, you know, next generation of like, you know, TikTok games, whatever that means, from like somebody who is like 15 years old and they've been making stuff online for the previous seven years somewhere in India. Yeah, that's more likely than ever before. You know, I've thought about this a lot and I've tried to arrive at what the answer to that particular question should be, could be.

2:42:51Yeah. I think it's cultural. We, as Indians, from a very young age, are taught to run away from risk. We are trained not to depict any form of rebellion. Our teachers are not our teachers. our teachers and our gods where questioning them is almost offending them religion plays a huge part in our cultural biases as well so we have to some extent nobody's going to like this answer but we have to some extent become a society which does not cherish or encourage contesting the norms of the day and I think that's bad for innovation Is it changing?

2:43:41I hope it is I hope it is I don't know if evidence depicts that but I hope it is because we have to change with access to education I mean Chachupiti's number one market is now India like just like those kind of like with geo like kind of everybody having access to the internet like now it's like you know fact checking and you know people say something I'm curious I think the internet teaches you many things but I think culture culture is more a factor of our schools and what we see in our homes. Can patriotism be sold? Like you mentioned earlier, there are a lot of brilliant Indian minds who are in the US who are post the financial event.

2:44:28Yeah. Where I don't truly believe him that it has nothing to do with money, but they might also want to project a similar thing. And for them, coming back to India and starting something and adding patriotism to that same projection could make a lot of sense. So I'm trying to collect people like that. How can you make this, you know, be like really cool? Yeah. Patriotism? Yeah, like what we were saying before, you know, having kids should become really cool. Being a patriot and doing the right thing for your country should be really cool. Like it was after the Second World War in the Western society, right?

2:45:01I mean, for a whole bit, Doge kind of did that for the government in the US, right? You know, it got like really smart people. There's some of them. Some of our peers are still there. I think there'll have to be unfair advantages back home in India. Yeah. Like, I've not thought about this enough, but say you're a patriotic Indian who paid X amount of tax or you came back to India just for the patriotic pursuit by giving up something substantial. Maybe there's a toll line on a road and you have a separate line. Yeah. Maybe you have a card which treats you differently with a government agency. I think some kind of unfair advantage has to be weaved into the narrative to make this work.

2:45:42But if at all it is plausible, it would be a great thing to attempt. Like Nikun said earlier, there's two stools, or two poles in the stool. You can get people to be excited about coming back to India, which is, you know, a lot of people are. Retaining them when they're back in India is challenging, I mean. I think if you could build like a separate city. See, the one great thing India has going for it, I think personally, is the labor arbitrage. A kid living in a hacker house in San Francisco is living a certain quality of life. If I take him back, give him two cars, two drivers, a Coke, and this and that and the other, and he's working essentially online all day long, and he still gets to spend, I don't know, 150 days a year here while building there, maybe there's a use case which works for both.

2:46:31NRI City. Let's make it happen. And no air pollution. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to be near any of the big cities. Yeah. Yeah. This is why a lot of people move to SF, and especially people who are used to the quality of life of India and others. The quality of life in SF is horrible. Yeah, but the reason... It depends on how you quantify it. Many of the people that all of us here are meeting, that 20-year-olds who just moved here three weeks ago, three months ago, two years ago, they're over the moon. It's as if, you know, they're doing drugs and their head is like exploding from joy every single moment.

2:47:13The most common thing, young people, and you guys can both know this, is I have never felt surrounded by like-minded people in my life. And now the nerds are here and they want to talk about what I want to talk about. Not like the bullshit that everybody else wants to talk about. And that's why people love SF. That's quality of life. It's not like walking on the street or having a maid and a driver. For this project to work, critical mass has to be achieved. Yes. But I don't know what critical mass is. What is that number? Do you want to be surrounded by 100 nerdy kids? That could be possible.

2:47:44Is it 10 ,000? I don't know. But it depends what you're solving for, right? Because if I'm a nerdy kid that was bullied my entire life, I come here, I have the highest status in this society. Because here, you know, you're a nerd. you're like top of the line it's like you have your own what you said you know your own lane in the highway and when you want to pay the tolls you know just you nobody else and then everyone around you who is a nerd understands you you're like oh my god people believe in me yeah until now I was bullied this is like insane you know it's like being like a slave and getting liberated yeah the the example I give everybody is like only in SF in the entire world, when you quit your job, everybody says congratulations.

2:48:32Yeah, that's a great point. That's a good one. The only city in the world. This doesn't happen anywhere else. In India, you're whacked probably. Like your parents are like, you know, what are you doing? Like in any other country, it's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry for you. Here, Nico meets a kid who's like left a job. He's like, congratulations, you're the term sheet. And again, you know, like I think the good news is that this internet culture for like the young generation that's chronically online is becoming a global phenomenon. Yeah. And this where, like, you know, talent is universal, but opportunity is not.

2:49:05Like, it's rising all boats, right? So, like, critical mass, you can now have online in a world of abundance. Offline, even in a big city, you know, it's harder to find those people if not everyone, you know, is a nerd. I disagree, though. I mean, COVID was a great reset, but it moved right back. There were a couple of years that New York City in the US, in terms of seed states, was looking better. Yeah, and neighborhood in New York or anywhere else you can find it. But it's just like a magnet effect. It is a magnet effect. Everybody gets it. For the past 50 years, Silicon Valley has done this again and again and again.

2:49:43It's hard to disrupt network effects. It is hard. I'll tell you a story about one of my really, really close friends from New York. We've been friends for 12 years. He moved this year and he's lived in maybe like five, six different cities in America. He came and in month three or something, he's like, dude, I found my people. Where were these people? Like, this is why I wasn't enjoying my time in Miami, in New York. It's like, I don't want to talk about all of that. I don't want to do all of that. And it's like, sure, he did it offline or like online as well. But I think it's just a different sensation when you're like, man, these are like real people around me.

2:50:22who actually want to just explore curiosity. I mean, here's some other things that we take for granted now, but no one talks about wealth in SF. I disagree. Some circles, yeah, yeah, sure. But I mean, compare that to India, where it's like so in your face. Like how rich somebody is is so in your face. Here, people don't have to drive a fancy car to show they're rich. They don't have to wear fancy clothes to show they're rich. That's one. People make economically absurd decisions. People will reject offers to make millions and millions of dollars a year because they believe. And that just doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

2:50:57God bless all those people, especially the founding engineers. God bless them. We wouldn't do well, our founders wouldn't do well, if this unique class of people, founding engineers or founding talent that show up a day after your company gets funded or gets started, and they get like one-thirtieth of the equity that you get. God bless those people. They are the two champions of the industry. The startup and the venture capital industry. Well, I think that's a good note to end tonight on. I think we spoke for a fairly long amount of time, almost three hours. But thank you guys for doing this. Sorry I troubled you a little bit.

2:51:35That's okay. If you were alone with me, I would have troubled you a lot more. More than welcome to. You could have dug 10 times deeper. Maybe the internet will leak. okay thank you guys thank you thank you so I was gonna ask you like have you seen the reel of yourself indicating you on podcast and what do you think I think he's really talented I wish I could act that well so actually I think commented or I sent him something and I said great job I think he's doing a good job that's nice that's nice when are you inviting him to the podcast someday soon why not right