Barbarossa In Ukraine: The Encirclement Of Kiev (Part 4)

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3:31Al Murray: We have covered more than 2 ,000 kilometers. The last part on foot. From the battlefield south of Omen to the Dnieperbend. In quick march. Only at night. On impossible roads. But everything got stuck. The experience of death is terrible. It is like a new baptism. Where is this endless war taking us? Spatially, there's no destination. The landscape stretches continually on. Melancholy is setting in. The enemy is still countless. Although sacrificed like a hetacomb. probably everything will have to be destroyed before the fighting is over those the words of kunter von shaven writing home um on the 2nd of september 1941 as he does what he can to encapsulate the the vastness of the effort and the sheer giant thing they've bitten off more than they can chew in the soviet union it's the best way of putting it i think it's not the most articulate but it says it all.

4:33Al Murray: Welcome to We Have Maze and Make Your Talk with me, Al Murray, and him, James Holland. And this is our fourth episode of The Road to Kiev, our Barbarossa series, but the 12th episode of the whole bitter saga. Summer extravaganza. Yeah, to the fall of Kiev. And this is the recurring theme again and again. And they knew this before they embarked on it, that the Soviet Union was enormous. They knew that there were logistic challenges ahead of them. They knew that they were grappling with the Colossus. They did know this and they did it anyway they got no one to blame but themselves but it doesn't fall under the john f kennedy thing if you know we choose to do these things not because they're easy because they are hard they chose to do this because they thought it would be easy and it's turned out to be hard hasn't it this is their problem yes and at the end of the last episode we looked at how the attritional battles um against our music group center are actually creating a big problem for the germans has been zhukov has broken through and the germans really have no reserve left the cupboards bare but they're gonna crack on anyway because that's what they always do because that's what they do because it's their mode they have no other mode and they haven't really got any choice in the matter either yeah yeah because they've got to keep going because otherwise what's the point we've come back to the the question we've asked again and again about oh no all sorts of German offensives.

5:54Al Murray: It's also mad. Exactly. It's also mad. Also crazy. Also pointless. Don't do it. Exactly. So don't do it, boys. Rewind the clock. Don't bother with Poland. Just be happy with what you've got and become an exporting nation. Exactly. Exactly. And just know your limitations. Oh, well. And then everyone can have plenty of Geld. And pork. Plenty of pork, because after all, that's the thing the Germans have got more of than anyone else. Plenty of Schwein. Schwein. you know and you can build build build vehicles in your own pace anyway we should look up good darien panzer group two because he's the key really he is the key to this yeah he is yeah you know we can be a bit rude about him but but he is the thing is though um come on heinz it's september now and you know the days are getting uh shorter yes weather's getting worse and his panzer corps is still making very slow progress as is weich's second army as well and it is it's bad weather which compounds the problem of how bad the roads are they've been attrited they've been weakened they're short on vehicles they're short on stuff everything essentially is working against them and not to mention they've got problems in their rear haven't they well their sides basically you know and their flanks but the advance is continuing and with it obviously the danger to the soviet forces in northern ukraine is rising with every passing day because they are just chipping away incrementally it's a bit normandy-esque but but the germans being the allies and the russians being the being the germans where it doesn't look like anything's moving but actually they're chipping away and eventually the dam is going to break or it looks like it might might well do and it's absolutely clear to everyone in the red army command that kiev needs to be abandoned literally now and the line straightened because this is a really really pronounced salient It's not like the later Kurs salient, which is like a great big brick that's sticking out all nice and square and neat.

7:52This is this sharp triangle with Kiev at the apex, as we've said, and the front line cutting back eastwards. And it means that Krippanos' southwestern front is really, really overextended and doing too much. Because immediately north of Kiev, and it's worth just reminding people, you're slightly protected by the Pripet Marshes. but the pressure to the east from the north from the second army and and and two panzer group is just pushing down and of course as we know from the last episode third panzer division followed by fourth panzer division have got across the river desna as it cuts back and should protect them on that northern bit and then south you've got general reich and al-6th army which is of course later famously infamously at stalingrad then you've got the first panzer group at this point and then 17th army and on the black sea coast is still the romanians and you've got the the very small corps of Italians, which are now in the mix as well.

8:45So everyone can relax on that front. And it is by the second week of September that Eremenko, who is on the Bryansk front, he's the commander of the Bryansk front, who's been expected to do much and who's been bossed about about where he deploys his troops. And you may remember that the 50th Army was the one that was quite good, but that's been put up in the northern bit where it can have the least amount of impact on Guderian's forces. It's here that his front starts to break up and lose cohesion. You know, they've been repeatedly flung into counterattacks of obviously with terrible you know tactics are awful it's basically sort of just run it run him on mass i mean this is no different from a banzai charge by the by the japanese yeah that we've been so rude about over many episodes in the past many episodes yeah and they're bloodied exhausted and at last they are starting to break up and that is giving guderian's men finally some tactical freedom which they want so on the 8th of september fourth panzer and third panzer these are the two spearheads of Schweppenberg's 24th Panzer Corps managed to seize a crossing over the river Seim which is a another river which is further south from the Desna and on the 9th of September they charged on and took the city of Conotop and Guderian is up front and sees these gains because you know he is credit where credit's due he's still very much up at the front kind of general but he's still really worried about this because Guderian as he points out the limited combat strength of all units showed how badly they needed rest and recuperation after two and a half months of exhausting fighting and heavy casualties you know and it's interesting isn't it he was very very against the halt order when that happened and on the 24th of may 1940 but here he's going we absolutely need it but the truth of the matter is and of course he doesn't know this aromenko's troops are in a far worse state than his own and this is what finally opens the gates and gaps start to emerge in the red army lines just as they did to the americans when they were attacking Operation Cobra at the back end of July 1944.

10:42Al Murray: But this shows, doesn't it, that these great German victories at this point are much more to do with the incoherence of the other side, isn't it, and the inability of the other side to resist. Correct. Exactly that, which is catastrophic for all. Well, for everyone, yes, because after this Guderian will remember this is all a great moment of fantastic success and cracking on and delivering, rather than recalling what he said there that the limited combat strength of all units shows how badly they need to rest. Yes, and how much the cracks are being papered over, you know. Yeah, exactly. But when things work out, you forget what went wrong or how close to run thing it was.

11:18Al Murray: And that's what feeds into the German hype around this campaign. Then on the 10th of September, Myrdal's 3rd Panzer Division, they push, they make a bold thrust due south to the city of Romney, which is on the River Sula. It's 50 miles from the same river crossing. how many these big the three rivers there's the sign the suda and i can't what the other one is and there's these three areas and they have to get get across all of them to push push south and they and they managed to do it these are big distances 50 mile punches um and they're basically out of fuel there's basically only a handful of panzers left but once they get through there's no opposition behind it you know they've they've basically got through a crust and uh romney's supposed to have been shielded to the north by a new defensive line but but third three third panzer even though it's basically a ragtag band have meant they've bypassed that without fight and have got in you know they've broken through they've broken out the big difference here is that there might be very few of these panzers left and they might be running on fumes but these are the best troops they have yeah so these are the guys who are motivated they're well trained they can think on their feet they can do the bevagan's krieg they can do alstrokes tactic they can do all that kind of stuff mission command stuff so they are very very good at exploiting gaps whereas the russians have this top heavy control um officers aren't very well trained yeah the toe rags at the front are even less well trained and so they can't think for themselves and don't know how to react and don't know how to respond so once you do have these these gaps the germans are very very well placed to exploit it in a way that the red army aren't yeah and and this is a big you know for the southwest front romney's a a key nodal point staging area and all sorts all sorts of you know uh logistic points like that so it's full of ammunition vehicles food no fuel though so while third panzer can help themselves to the to the ammunition vehicles and food you can steal a vehicle but if you can't put any petrol in it it's no good to you is it yeah but the trap is closing on the southwest front they are they are in in trouble now and the same day It's another one of these days with lots going on.

13:29Al Murray: Langerman, Erlenkamp's 4th Panzer Division catch a Bakmak, which is 60 k's northwest of Romney. While at Grossdeutschland, they reach Putivill, which is 60 kilometers northeast of Romney. So basically, they've punched this great big hole in the northern front of the Kiev salient. This means the road to Kiev is essentially pretty much open now. You know, Romney's 150 miles from Kiev, but the point is that they're getting in there, aren't they? They're popping the Soviet line open. Although they're getting attacked by Red Army ground attack aircraft while they're doing this, the weather's pretty bad, which limits support from the Luftwaffe.

14:11Al Murray: But it's also restricted to the Red Army, isn't it? I mean, it swings around about bad weather, isn't it, when it comes to air? It means you're relieved. You know, you have no cover, but you're also less likely to be troubled by the enemy. Exactly. But the Soviets do press those attacks. On the 9th of September, 4th Panzer are really badly hit by enemy air attacks. And of course, because there's bottlenecks and gridlock on these terrible roads, they're easy pickings, aren't they? Absolutely amazing, though, the fruits of this attrition. By the 10th of September, 4th Panzer have just 34 tanks still running.

14:44Al Murray: 12 Mark IIs, 13 Mark IIIs. Which are a waste of space. right and nine mark fours so less than two squadrons of a whole of a british tank regiment or two american tank companies and that's a whole division it's extraordinary isn't it completely boggling yeah and and you know you just cannot stress enough how this is a moment of huge risk and overextension because no matter how good you are you can only do what you you're only as good as your weapons will allow you to be you can be as well trained as you like but even got any bullets and you haven't got enough tanks and you haven't got enough means you're stuffed yeah so lemelson's 47th panzer corps is still covering the left no the eastern flank of the drive south albeit now behind the western bank of the desna river as as being ordered general nehring's 18th panzer division had a front of 60 kilometers by by the 10th of september wow 70 kilometers the following day for one division yeah and you know we already know that that there aren't enough panzers to go around by this stage so on the 12th of september an aerial intelligence warned of 80 soviet tanks of which at least 20 were perceived to be kv1s you know these absolute behemoths so it's a really really tense moment but the enemy thrust in fact turns south rather than trying to attack across the river and lemelson is hampered by a lack of recce planes because they lost the last one that had been attached to them on the 13th of september but his panzer corps the whole core is now covering a total front of 150 kilometers what's that that's like 90 miles that's ridiculous and gadarian's forces are completely running on empty and a half decent enemy could and should have stopped them in their tracks for you know i mean it's just absolutely incredible yeah and and so it really is important i think you know you you've touched on this already but to really stress just how bad the red army is at this stage i mean this this should never have been allowed to happen yeah you know the russians are better than this the soviet union is better than this yeah anyway meanwhile on the central front you still got this crisis of course yeah because the red army is still pounding away at box army group c yeah you know we're fourth army and ninth army facing relentless attacks yeah and on the 8th of september bock notes the russians continue to assail the defensive front mit major und minor assaults.

17:12Al Murray: Their air superiority is especially uncomfortable. The bulk of our aircraft are deployed on the flank attacks. I mean, that doesn't read like the Wehrmacht running rampant, does it? Not at all. What's left of them in terms of aircraft, there's not many left. The Luftwaffe has been attrited and debilitated. It's been rinsed. And this means that they can't defend their airspace, which means they can't deal with the Soviet tactical air, and they can't extend their own tactical air power so this the attacks on the center continued and they're often the little local breakthroughs which then have to be counter-attacked and pushed back and this part of the campaign is nowhere near as glamorous as the as guderian's you know fantastic arrows zipping around ukraine so it tends to sort of fall fall second in the narrative doesn't it yeah and they're just losing absolutely thousands yeah yeah you know they're losing thousands of just being whittled away and then you add on the disease as we were talking about in the last episode you know the typhus typhoid malaria endless lice you know dysentery is absolutely rampant so bock on the 12th of september i think you're bock aren't you yes he writes on the defensive front the usual picture the enemy is organized for attack opposites of familiar sectors of the fourth and ninth armies and here and their attacks sometimes with tanks so it it ain't going the way he wants No, not at all.

18:32And one soldier in Army Group C, Horst Saletien, says, One battalion commander spoke about Flanders in the Veldvoer. The features of our current situation have many similarities with that time. Vet und Dirt, the sodden ground, the enemy artillery battles, the fighting in trenches and positions. It is the worst form of war. Hard days are coming. The last man is forward in the position and fights against the suffocating masses that are thrown against us. The Bolsheviks will be sacrificed hecatum by the stubborn hate of their leaders, but it is the masses. Always new units repeat the attacks that will often be prepared by hours of pounding fire.

19:12Not infrequently, they manage to break into our positions.

19:16Al Murray: So they know it at the top and they know it at the bottom. It's the point, isn't it? I certainly know. It's an impression everywhere. Right, so let's return to the southern thrust now. Weich's second army on the right of Gadare, and they're also at breaking point by the second week of September. General Heinrichi of 43 Corps is not alone in being the end of his tether either. And he writes in his diary that his troops are dead tired, battle very unvied. And he asks Bock for relief. Everyone, poor old Bock. Everyone's coming to Bock and going, help me out here. And Bock's like, I can't, I can't.

19:50Al Murray: From your bone. Do you mind? He asked for relief, but Bock told it was impossible. And then Heinrichi writes, everyone concerned is speechless after Box's rebuttal. But this just shows that they all know the state they're in locally, but they don't know the bigger picture either, do they? They know that they're in the schtuck, but they don't know that anyone else is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So Krippanos' and Erdemenko's troops are faring no better. But the difference now between the Wehrmacht spearheads and the Red Army is, you know, as we were discussing, it's kind of more about training and professionalism than it is about material anymore you know germany is now fighting a poor man's war in the east with catastrophic shortages that just simply can't be made good so by the 10th of september of the capture of romney the outcome is is by this point not really in doubt because the germans are just so far behind um krippenos's massive armies but it is really disguising the very parlor state of the austere the the german army in the east you know and meanwhile stalin is still stubbornly insisting on defending kiev i mean what the heck yes they should be turning tail and breaking out shouldn't they trying to break back through which would big time after all inflict a huge blow to the germans if they actually succeeded in doing that you know as well as saving their own men it would it would really just break the spell wouldn't it of uh of the wehrmacht have sort of managed to conjure but stalin is insisting on defending kiev and you've got zhukov vasilevsky and saposhnikov they're all trying to varying degrees to avert this looming catastrophe but starling is not listening kiev has to be defended no matter what the cost but i mean who is who is really prepared to stand up to him so saposhnikov's you know he's not really he's not really got the balls for it has he no one at the staff because prepared to stand up for Stalin.

21:45Al Murray: No, not at all. Even though they all know that they need to, you know, get out of Kiev and not hold on to it. And on the 7th of September, Shapochnikov, and God bless him for trying, at least tentatively, he suggests a withdrawal from, I mean, it can't have been easy. It can't have been easy. You know, first secretary. Yeah, yeah. Comrade, just, you know, just, I know we've touched on this before, but kiev i mean i just wanted to circle back really circle back to the christian teeny bit worried teeny bit worried reaching out to you about kiev here yeah um and he suggests a withdrawal but starlin shames him and and dresses him down and searches him for it and then on the 10th so three days later krivenos says um you know i got german forces deep in my rear and i really would like to be able to withdraw and um and at this point shapochnikov told him he was wrong he's you're wrong there aren't german forces in your rear and you need to stand your crown even though he knows that's not true and then stalin rings krippanos and says jim your proposal to withdraw forces we consider dangerous stop looking for lines of retreat and start looking for lines of resistance and only resistance i mean that's a helpful comment isn't it yeah i really thank you anyway the next day the next day the 11th september budeni who is the commander of the southwestern direction of their difficult second album is also uh also contacting stavgun but denny warns the delay with the withdrawal of the southwestern front will lead to losses in men and a large quantity of equipment.

23:31And, you know, this is very, very clearly Soviet command speak for, this will be an untold catastrophe. I mean, that's, you know, he's saying it as forcefully as he can, isn't he? Yeah, yeah.

23:41Al Murray: Yeah, but how does the boss take it, Jim? So how does Stalin respond to this? Well, exactly. He goes apeshit. Saks Budeny on the spot and categorically forbids Krippanov from retreating. And Shapochnikov then repeats the line that Eremenko's front would deal with Guderian, which is just clearly nonsense because he hasn't done it so far. Yeah. And there's been lots of gaps and they've managed to burst through. And on the 12th of September, new directives are issued to form blocking formations forbidding any retreat. So that was helpful. That went down well. Brilliant. Well done, everyone. But Buck's still got a massive dilemma on his hand, hasn't he?

24:14Yeah, he has, though. Everyone's just like, push me, pull you, isn't it?

24:17Al Murray: Well, yes, because Panzer Group 2 might be heading south. There's still his responsibility for it. They're still on his command. And they're meant to get to Romney, but they've done it. but there's still no sign of the return thrust, which is Kleist's Panzer Group One from the south. So he realizes, Bok realizes, I'm going to have to do more. My boys are going to have to do some more. Even though they're very weakened and fragile, they are elite. As you pointed out, Jim, they're good people, the spearheads deep behind enemy lines. So he's on the phone urging Runsted and Kleist to get the finger out.

24:54Al Murray: But of course, he's told that can't be done because of the bad weather. How they pull this off? I mean, there are many, many things against them here, aren't there? There are. And their staging areas aren't built up on time. There's delay with the roads and the weather. And so they postponed the breakout operation as planned to the 12th of September. But there's even more against them because before Kleist's panzers could break out the Kremenchuk bridgehead, there's really heavy counterattacks coming in from the Soviet 38th Army. And unlike where Guderian is, where the Red Army is disorganized and weak, the Red Army strength is more organized and more coherent at Dnieper-Petrovsk and Kremenchuk.

25:39Al Murray: So you've 100 Red Army tanks with infantry, Katyushas, and so on. So a proper thrust. No shooting match, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And although the Germans fend them off, destroy 68 tanks, you know, they're under attack. They're under pressure. The Russians are coming. And he's, Bok now has to decide, does he stay at Romney as he is or push further south with what he's got? Well, because that's the whole point in this great grand encirclement plan was that they were going to meet at Romney. Yeah. So they've, the Northern Frost has done its beat. Yeah. But what do you do? So this is why Bok is thinking, oh you know do i push on with with even more skeletal forces you know very limited um luftwaffe reconnaissance planes available so what there are are reporting three large formations moving towards romney lochavista and lubney um all of which are in these kind of this neck of the woods and connecting these three towns is the river sulla which is running sort of north south and so control of these towns and bridges there is absolutely vital but but so you don't want to let the enemy get all of them no but on the other hand you're getting a bit thin this is often the dilemma or the problem with encirclement actions isn't it is that one one part gets to where it's meant to and is ready to go you know one prong you know as you look at fillets where the where they don't quite close the gap and it's people are behind schedule people ahead of schedule and all that sort of stuff it's very very difficult to pull this off actually and modal is the key person here yeah yeah yeah model is a key person here and why we voted for him as being the greatest of german commanders he did yes definitively at we have ways fest last year and this is because he just uses his own nous to create a new camp group a battle group of three panzers what three only three three panzers it's already got eight eight armored wrecky vehicles so i'm a cause one anti-tank company six artillery pieces so that's two zoogs so that's two batteries yeah and uh some motorized infantry it's not a lot but it's obviously a clear reflection of how overextended modal is and how reduced is his division but he just thinks what the heck yeah so he is now largely replenished in terms of ammunition but not so fuel so this camp group is really all that's available to complete the coup de main of Guderian's operation from the north.

28:06This is a bit like, you know, your one half-track arriving in Antwerp in the Battle of the Bulge. Yeah, exactly. Instead of coming up against the British and the Americans and Canadians, you're coming up against the Red Army. But anyway, so he just thinks, well, I've got, you know, this is, what's the alternative for not going for it? What am I going to do? What am I going to do? So he decides to sweep on to Lough Vista and Lubny because why the hell not? because they've come this far, they might as well do it. And should we take a break there? What do you think? And find out what happens afterwards?

28:37Why the hell not?

28:39Al Murray: We might as well do it. Exactly. Let's take our break. Yeah. We'll see you in a tick and see how... I mean, this is amazing. It's like not even a company action, this. It's incredible. That's amazing. It's amazing. We'll see you in a moment.

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30:18Al Murray: Welcome back to We Have Ways to Make You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. And, well, so Myrtle, Myrtle's sallying forth with a sort of dirty dozen assemblage of bits and pieces. And meanwhile, we have von Kleist, who's in charge of the spearhead from Panzergruppe. And his army group. Yeah, exactly. Panzergruppe I. He's given that job to 16th Panzer Division to be the spearhead. and they're commanded by general mayor valentin huber um uh who who will demand in sicily and following that was the ninth panzer division under the austrian general uh uh general lightnant ritter alfred von hubicki and this is where vilain prula who's in our bonus episode for patreons um where he's experiencing his uh uh campaign with with the 11 schutz regiment yeah Yeah, and I think it's worth just reminding people that they'd had this bridgehead at Dnipro-Petrovsk, but then they decided that the exploitation bridgehead for this link-up that they were going to make with Panzer Group 2 was going to happen at Cominchuk, which is 130 kilometres north-west of Dnipro-Petrovsk, and still, you know, 90 miles from Kiev or something.

31:39I mean, so it's quite a long way down still. Yeah. These guys, I mean, absolutely crazy. What are they like? What are they like? This attack out of the Coventry Bridgehead, 130 kilometres north of Dnipro-Petrovsk, with Huber's 16th Panzer Division, begins at 9am on the 12th of September and goes pretty well, to be honest. The Red Army forces are surprised by the weight of Huber's attack. And after only 30 minutes or so of intense fighting, 16th Panzer are through and out into open country. And this is the point of all these things. it's once you get through the crust sun is nothing because you can't just have dense red army troops the whole way not in a in a country as vast as the saviot union so you do have these these moments where you have you know when you're running up against the enemy it's all quite it's quite intense fighting but then you have these moments where it's just absolutely nothing at all and so that's that's what happens and driving hard they meet very little resistance indeed and reach the town of semenovka by late afternoon which is 70 kilometers give or take from kremenchuk wow i mean what's that 40 40 odd miles 45 miles yeah anyway by this time huber's spearheads are running very low on fuel but but huber is cut from the same cloth as modal and decides to wing it and advance until the leading army stops dead and this takes them to 15 kilometers short of korol which is you know a further 12 kilometers from semen semenovka that's them on day one you know of this this beer it was quite impressive i think yes that's that's going some isn't it you know to go kind of you know 80 odd kilometers that's 50 miles in one day

33:16Al Murray: but it isn't the same for everybody so who pick his ninth panzer which is um uh where willem prula's uh taking part and they don't get they don't have a free run like that at all and much of that division gets bogged down in mud and by the end of the 12th september they're only partly across the Dnieper. And that's all in the bonus episode for patrons all laid out, exactly what that's like. And this means that Huber's division is out on a limb as much as Myrdal's. I mean, yes, they've done a great big, they've stabbed this big finger into the Soviet lines, but these are very vulnerable positions they find themselves in, super exposed and not just exposed, but are already attrited, already weakened.

33:59Al Murray: But they have managed to build, the German pioneers have built two 16-ton bridges across the dnieper i mean you know luckily they're only using light armor at this stage you know that they they haven't got tigers or anything at this at this point so um unlike the pontoon bridges that they've put at denipro i'm gonna say that i just can't do the whole word okay fine um allows for far quicker and smoother flow of traffic so Yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to go to Dnipro for now. Yeah, yeah. So the same day, von Wietersheim's 14 Panzer Corps, right, who've, I mean, in this endless melee, they're also crossing the deeper to the south using southerly the two bridges, which means 14th Panzer Division are able to get in a staging position for a further thrust.

34:50Al Murray: But the other thing is, you've got to remember these aren't cores and divisions in the way that they were eight weeks ago or nine weeks ago when this whole thing started. No, they're battalions and companies. Rad tag bands. Yeah. Deep in the belly of the Soviet Union. And Wietersheim has been ordered to drive eastwards to Myrgerod, which would then cover the eastern flanks of the Panzer Drive to the north and massively expand the bridgehead. But this also means another one of these giant finger thrusts full of vulnerability and you know very emotional situation they're putting themselves in but they've very much got the spirit of nelson well yeah there's a lot of nelson going on here he says in this situation we must risk a great deal susceptibility in the flanks is of no consequence well if you say so mate yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean just extraordinary isn't it anyway what it does mean is that the 13th of september 1941 is a massive day in this battle because modal's small camp grouper advances further south and they do take the town the key town of lock vista on the sule and they managed to get a bridge intact as well despite molotov cocktails and pot shots being fired by civvies um as much as the troops modal is getting pretty worried you know even he is is kind of you know thinking yikes i've i've overextended here there's reports of dense enemy formations approaching uh which are reaching him and the reinforcements are desperately desperately needed by now you know he's got just his three panzers and lorried infantry it's not right you know it's not it's not a lot is it no but he had requested air support and this time lertzer's flieger corps ii are able to come and help and guderian as usual is up at the front albeit with schweppenberg not modal and he requests 18th panzer division nearing is now holding 80 kilometers of the left flank kind of you know the north south stretch of the desna river and guderian wanted bock to send an infantry division to replace nearing's 18th and then send 18th panzer division south asap but this couldn't happen of course with the click of a finger even if if bock was prepared to do it so bock refuses to request as does holder and once again guderian throws his toys out of the pram uh what did he say no consideration was given to the confused situation on our eastern flank or to the potential dangers of threaten from that quarter no he's very cross i mean it's hard being a genius isn't it when when when you're surrounded by fools jim that's what that's what we've got there and i think it's fair to say that the general narrative of this this part of the eastern front battles is is that this is a cakewalk and the you know it's easy pie and they've kind of you know it's uh victory is is just a finger click away but it doesn't certainly doesn't seem that way at the time not to anybody involved and the german intelligence is incredibly patchy and guderian has no idea about the true state of erimenko and krypinos's forces all he knows is there's a huge amount that's being expected of his forces limited forces attrited weakened forces with very very dodgy supply lines and not enough of anything and yes they're encircling the red army but what if actually the red army then encircles them you know could easily happen right and the bottom line is this the german spearheads are woefully insufficient for the huge task that they've been given yeah yeah i mean it and it's their good fortune that Stavka is just not seeing any of this, that the Stavka cannot read the state they're in at all.

38:28Al Murray: You know, it's pure luck, isn't it? Pure luck. So on the 13th of September, Huber's 16th Panzer Division, who have managed to refuel overnight, they now push on to Lubny and their leading panzers are now just 40 kilometers from Myrtle. But from Myrtle's wacky races uh uh formation um at lock vista just you know 24 miles and they all are going looks like they could close the encirclement but they're not there yet and of course they've been on the go for two days two nights they've traveled 85 kilometers but they've only taken 1500 prisoners of war right so you know they've got 600 trucks 70 guns 20 tractors and three planes but really you know well what that what that tells you is that they've broken through the crust left the the crust behind yeah and you know someone at the follow-up troops can mop up you know the enemy there and then they're just not really running into anything else yeah yeah these are going to be what these 1500 pow is going to be rear area troops right you know yeah yeah yeah it's easy to break out when there's no one there you know make progress when there's no one there right pattern in britney exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but they get to lubney and there they meet fanatical resistance from nkvd formations plus the workers militia and civilians forced by the nkvd to fight from the cellars and rooftops and fighting continues all day and all night and it's obviously it's so terrible grinding fighting in a build-up area yeah and while they're while they're seeing off this they can go no further there's there's that's it they're stuck now in lubney but the link-up was supposed to happen on the 13th of september everyone was expecting it you know so looks like the hopes might be dashed especially as large enemy formations are reportedly closing in on lot vista and modal's very very small forces yeah that he has there's little battle group and then new intelligence arrives and this is to reveal that that enemy troop formations are mainly badly trained rear area troops and in total disarray and most are simply just desperate to escape so this is a clear sign to all the german commanders that kripanos's front is now finally starting to collapse and implode.

40:38Yeah. Yeah. So it's a big moment.

40:41Al Murray: And also, at this point, it's clear signs that although they're slower moving, the German 6th Army and 2nd Army are making progress as well as the floodgates of the southwest front are bursting open. And on this day, Stubnagel's 17th Army, who are holding open the Kremenchung bridgehead, they also began spreading out of their breach and sweeping north. So it's bang, it's popping open. Soviets are falling apart. And the fingers of this advance is very sort of, it's like watching a crystal grow, isn't it? In slow motion. Yes, they're suddenly becoming a bit webbed. The fingers are becoming webbed.

41:16Al Murray: That's the point. That's right. The thrusts are becoming more connected, more coherent. It's interesting this, isn't it? Because all of this on the Soviet side is preventable, isn't it? All of it, you know, they got their act together. Completely. But at this, suddenly you've got more troops to play with. You've got more tactical flexibility. and so 11th army corps is sub subordinated to klyst first panzer group and actually hubiki's knife panzer with the aforementioned wilhelm prula is rushing past vitersheim's 14th panzer corps and and it is knife panzer that takes myrgrod so by nightfall on the 13th of september there's absolutely no chance at all of krippanos staving off defeat you know it is absolutely curtains the germans haven't closed the ring but but it's it's clearly not going to be yeah for long and so they have very very much sort of snatched the snatched victory from the seeds of total mayhem and catastrophe yeah yeah and one of the reasons one of the reasons for that is is stalin isn't it let's be completely straight up here yeah you know the soviets have only had to deal with one other battle that's kind of an equivalent which is smolensk of a scale with this kind of scale but here's a really big looming defeat for the red army which is out of all proportion to what's gone wrong before because at smolensk there were two armies that had kept the pocket open there were plenty of reserve armies within striking distance which meant that they could put real pressure on the on the um on the germans and nor were those retreating armies that were you know discretion was the better part of valor in that situation nor are they being impeded by orders from stalin yeah and obviously that battle panning out the way it did means he doesn't want a repeat of that.

42:53Al Murray: So he's trying to make sure there isn't a repeat of that and he's going to create a repeat of that. It's the problem, isn't it? Yeah. You know, and there's nothing that they can bring to bear to rescue Kiev. And because the effort has been on the central front, trying to stop the Germans getting to Moscow, which has been costly for the Germans, we've made that, we've really underlined that, made that clear that those are bigger attritional battles. They've been very difficult for the Soviets as well, because that's the way the Soviets fight. They fight in a costly style. So they're done and also they can't be moved because he's worried about the threat to Moscow.

43:26Al Murray: So basically, he's created a situation where he is out of options because of the options he's chosen previously. And this means if you're in the Kiev pocket, it's 200 kilometers to any prospect of resupply, relief, and so on. The weather's dreadful. The roads are crap. It means hundreds of thousands of men are doomed now and this is all blindingly obvious isn't it and you know and the debacle is just so obvious to everyone but Stalin yeah he was still on the 13th of September insisting that the situation could be rectified but of course it can't and meanwhile Bedeni who is the north commander of the north the southwestern direction has been replaced by Timoshenko who's who's competent but also compliant yeah and so knows what side his bread's buttered so on the 11th september he's been summoned to moscow then packed off by train to the front making his headquarters at poltava which is where peter the great had halted the invasion of the swedes in 1709 back in the day when gustavus adolphus and everyone was yeah running rampant for sweden but anyway timoshenko reckons that he can halt the slide by ordering a renewed salt from arimenko's brienne's front into the flanks of guderian's panzer group too but of course you know what he doesn't know is the real state of arimenko's forces he doesn't realize that they're absolutely out of steam and he's given the orders to destroy gudarian's forces by no later than 18 september but it's just it's it's it's not going to be possible i mean you know he issues his orders um aromenko does his best his forces do their best but they're exhausted lack training lack leadership can't pull it off and aromenko has already committed more than quarter of a million men 259 tanks and he's lost a hundred thousand men and 140 tanks so you know yeah it is absolutely hammered and none of the bryant front efforts need have been in vain it should be said um had their efforts been used to withdraw the southwestern front and straighten the line but they haven't been yeah you know and that's that's the crazy thing about this um and meanwhile krippanos's chief of staff who's major general vi tupikov sends a signal to sheposhnikov you know who remember is the chief of staff at stavka on the night of the 13th and 14th of september this is the beginning as you know of catastrophe, a matter of a couple of days.

45:44And Stalin has shown the message, but once again refuses to accept the reality. Come on, Joe, wake up, smell the coffee. Stalin says to Sheposhtikov, on the contrary, the situation requires the maintenance of extreme coolness and steadfastness on the part of commanders at all levels. Avoiding panic, it is necessary to take all measures to hold occupied positions and especially to hold on to the flanks. I mean, god help us what are you gonna do it's clear though that that it is starting to get here because on the 30th september starlin sends churchill a note yeah asking for a british landing in northern russia of some 25 to 30 divisions i mean how that how that's going to magically appear is nothing but i mean just the very idea i mean 25 to 30 divisions yes yeah okay oh yeah sure we'll do what yeah we can do that yeah no problem but anyway but at the same time as the southwestern front the western front and the reserve front are also reaching breaking point because you know they've just been hammering away a box fourth army and ninth army on the central front and and the crisis that has been absolutely ragging box mind and and every waking hour is now to a certain extent over which is allowing for a modicum of rest and refit for his beleaguered troops so that's good news for bock but guderian is still worried because you know he's still got a flank of 200 kilometers and yes he's got the desna river covering much of this but you know even so you're expecting a lot from not very much and of course it's the weather

47:17Al Murray: weather's really really bad weather on the 14th september so they can't get any aerial recce Nope. And ground recce is stuck in the mud. So, you know, for all this cracking on, they've no real idea of the state of the Red Army on their flanks. Nope. Guderian's guys don't know. And after Yelnia and the slow and difficult drive south, Guderian is worried that the current lack of a major counterattack is too good to be true. In other words, he thinks the Soviets are saving something up and they're going to really come for once they've got themselves organized. And Nehring's 18th Panzer Division is covering a 90-kilometer front, which is just ridiculous space.

47:58Al Murray: Bonkers, isn't it? For a division to cover. And they're depleted as it is. They're thin on the ground. And as the 18th Panzer War Diary notes, everything is deployed forward and fully engaged. So, you know, they're... No wiggle room. No wiggle room. And Guderian feels quite edgy with all this. You know, there's poor weather, lack of decent intelligence he certainly does bad roads how depleted his lads are um and you know the overconfidence and the sort of nazi war machine vibe of france has basically dissipated it's gone they're they're they're completely flying by the seat of their pants and what's more despite the the imminent victory the reign is clearly a harbinger of what is to come yeah because the campaign is is clearly far from finished you know because for all the victories barbara hasn't succeeded because yeah the red army is still functioning yeah you know it hasn't been annihilated within three months and this is appreciated at this stage even back on the home front and on the 5th of september joseph goebbels the uh right propaganda minister notes in his diary are you goebbels i can't remember i can't remember no i think you are above all in the large empty areas of the front the coming winter in the east that'll probably mean very heavy losses so he's reading the runes isn't he he's not a military man and this idea which has has been written about in the past that the germans were caught napping with you know general so-called general winter yeah it's not the case they will know it you know everyone knows about napoleon and his grand army you know the whole point was that they weren't going to be there in the winter So they were going to do this in three months.

49:41It was all going to be fine. So, you know, as one OKH staff officer notes, that it is cold in Russia at this time belongs to the ABC of an Eastern campaign. It's quite right. Exactly. They all know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But don't have winter kit because they weren't flying to fight in winter. Exactly. It's not because they forgot.

50:03Al Murray: It's because it was all supposed to be over by now. Exactly. The Soviet government was meant to have capitulated, thrown in the towel because it had been soundly defeated. But it doesn't work like that. On the 14th of September 1941, Myrdal now has his headquarters. Another big day. Another big day. At Lough Vista. But the pocket north of here is far from hermetically sealed and Huber is still stuck in Lubny. So on this day, Schweppenberg's 24th Panzer Corps headquarters suddenly comes under attack from a Red Orr army column. Fighting its way eastwards. And they're only saved by rescuing the relief column.

50:38Al Murray: So in other words, if the Soviets get their act together, the vulnerabilities of the German position is laid bare, but they aren't quite doing it. On another part of the front, 1st Cavalry Division, who are still using horses, their actual cavalry, are holding a stretch to the eastern flank when they're attacked by a force of infantry and T-34s and KV-1s. And they did have 88mm anti-tank weapons, but even so, 1st Cavalry are ordered to hold their ground, and it's a massive scrap. And one of them recalls us, Max Cunert, who's a soldier in 1st Cavalry Division, recalls, We were simply exhausted and also had many casualties, not only in the way of men, but horses as well.

51:20Al Murray: On my way to my horse, I could not avoid seeing the truck full of young corpses. It was just ghastly, and those were only a few from our immediate area. Blood was relatively running down the side from the floorboards of the truck, and the driver was, despite the heat, white as a sheet. Shells were still flying about, but we were ordered to get ready to march, not for a treat, but en route to Kiev. So it looked as if the Russian counterattack had been stopped, but at what cost? We marched on, leading our horses, looking constantly to the skies for attackers and wondering how long this census slaughter could go on it's hardly the language of victory is it but myrtle the problem is german armies led by people who insist on taking the initiative regardless of the circumstances a british army general at this point would have gone you know what old boy um i think we've got as far as we possibly can it can't be done it can't be done it's time to return to cut our losses our chap you know what you needed you needed modal when it when it was when we were doing market garden had modal it would be fine wouldn't have been a bridge too far but anyway he's in lock vista but he realizes he needs to close the gap which means a further thrust southwards i mean no so he now takes his one tank or whatever he's got left so he takes his his camp grouper towards lubny and um although they repeatedly run into disparate red army troops they do manage to link up with a company of hoober's men from the 16th panzer north of the town has his war diary notes 40th of september 1941 18 20 hours link up of one and two panzer groups so modal also insisted that the password for his forces should be tannenberg oh of course he did but the link up on the 14th of september is is let's be honest more symbolic than total um but it's the total is not long in coming because the next day it's the 15th of september and major units of the ninth panzer division this is prudel's lot um properly link up with third panzer to the south of lochfista and at this moment this circlement really is complete and halder who had never wanted this battle notes with satisfaction that the ring is closed yeah and poor old bot who after all has been having to say no to everybody box rejoicing you know he's had everyone on the phone going give me what i want and he's had to fend them all off he's rejoicing but really from relief he's delivered it's over they've done they've pulled it off but the main russian force stands unbroken before my front and as before the question is open as to whether we can smash it quickly and so exploit this victory before winter comes ensuring that russia cannot rise again in this war he doesn't believe it does he he knows exactly what the answer the questions are but four entire soviet armies have been trapped by the incelcomment the 5th the 21st the 26th and the 37th 43 entire divisions and this extends 200 kilometers east from lakvista to kiev and amounted to around 20 000 square kilometers so what's that about size of belgium something like that i mean maybe not quite as large as belgium but you know it's it's big anyway some 770 000 red army troops are in the bag so it's the biggest hall of the war so far um kripp and awesome most of his staff are captured in a small pocket in the three rivers area and all go down fighting well they're not captured they're killed in the final fighting so it's not just soldiers foot soldiers getting killed but generals too yeah and hitler of course takes all the credit doesn't he jubilation at the war's lair where he'd been since the start and and kiev is just another notch on the subjugation of the wehrmacht to hitler really that's that's the terrible tragedy of this yeah you know because after all i think the data is genius now jim you go tell him you go to the will slayer and tell him he's not a genius oi fuhrer no um but actually this is this this is a catastrophe a calamity for everyone all round obviously the the soviet union has suffered a massive blow and yes they can afford lots of people but you know the political impact of this could be that the state falls you know and it's Stalin's judgment is obviously rotten and everyone around him involved in strategic decision making knows this you know um and obviously despots do fall they can fall quickly and he may maintain an iron grip but it may be that the people around him decide that it isn't worth it but the problem is so that's one kind of disaster you know the disaster of defeat but there's a disaster in victory here.

55:56Al Murray: It's all Pyrrhic. Everything the Germans are doing is Pyrrhic. Absolutely everything they do is creating a situation that is completely unsustainable, not remotely sustainable. And that defending these gains will then become extremely difficult against an enemy that, you know, in the end Stalin doesn't particularly care about his people much. he's prepared to make extremely enormous sacrifices and it's stalin's ineptitude and decision making rather than hitler's genius here well it's completely avoidable that's the point yeah yeah exactly and of course it's a it's a massive catastrophe for the soviet people soviet jews ukrainians many others besides because behind the wehrmacht is coming the ss and sd and the einsatz group and these action groups you know the exterminations and mass executions have already begun on an truly unprecedented scale and are adding to the misery of these poor beleaguered abused peoples of of eastern europe and babi yar follows the fall of the city of kiev and sees you know tens of thousands of jews executed and i think 33 000 wasn't it but anyway that you know this is what german occupation means and of course it's only the beginning and we will be having a look at this um this side of it um more fully in the in next year but this is the most amazing thing this is the most incredible thing because you can't understand the war on the eastern front without accepting that the strategic goals are constantly shifting there's a constant battle between what the army thinks should be happening what hitler wants to do yeah and incredibly hitler has already decided by the end of august that actually moscow is where he wants to go after all and so he starts turning his attention to this and everyone's going what you know we've just had this incredible logistic nightmare of trying to turn everything north and south now you want to go pell-mell towards uh towards the capital and with what yeah so after all the arguments all the prevarications after the logistical challenges he then comes up with furor directive number 35 on the 8th of september and this prompts a new code name for a new operation and this is operation typhoon so at this point you have to accept that barbarossa has been a failure because barbarossa was supposed to annihilate the red army it is not annihilated it's very badly beaten and you have to accept that what that you are still able to win victories whilst at the same time bleed yourself to death which is what the german army the aust here yeah is doing it is in a terrible terrible state and the huge enormous victory of kiev the greatest victory of all declares is masking unbelievable shortcomings and problems and strategic disarray but but But what happens in this next phase of the campaign is, of course, where we shall be heading next.

59:08Al Murray: Operation Typhoon, ladies and gentlemen. Well, thanks very much for listening. We hope you've enjoyed these 12 parts on Barbarossa. There's a bonus episode of Wilhelm Prüller's ongoing campaign over on the Patreon. And, of course, if you join the Patreon, you can listen to all of these things in one go, no ads, and Feast and all the other stuff that our patrons get for their membership. and that prula episode we did was fascinating wasn't it it really it's really really worth listening to we covered him in the last series didn't we but but we've done a whole episode on this whole period of and his take on it and his his bird's eye view of of what's going on and his his attitudes for the people he meets and the places he sees and the violence he witnesses is just extraordinary and we've noticed this across all of these episodes the people at the top know the people at the bottom know but on they crack because the man right at the top doesn't know and that's what it comes down to isn't it in the end anyway thanks for listening everyone we'll see you very soon cheerio cheerio

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