One Man's War: Fighting Through Italy (Part 4)

0:01Thank you for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com slash we have ways.

0:23Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. You know that friend you only call when you need something? HomeServe's here for you. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back for regular use, where basic homeowners insurance typically won't help. With a protection plan from HomeServe in place before disaster strikes, just call us.

1:10We'll send a qualified contractor and help you avoid unexpected expenses. Maybe we're the last ones you want to call, but we're happy to hear from you. Go to homeserve.com slash audio for 50 % less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price, Boyd and Florida.

1:33I came home for the first time in November 44. This was the worst thing I remember about the war because no one had conditioned me. It never occurred to me. I thought I was intelligent. I wasn't. I was very naive, actually. Never realised that time doesn't stand still. My sister died during the war. She'd been down in the shelters every night and she got pneumonia and died and she left two children. I knew my mother would be at my sister's house looking after her children. She didn't know I was coming home and I didn't want to just walk in. I thought if I go to my sister's house she may or may not be there.

2:04I went to my sister's house. When I went away to war my niece was a little girl of about 12 and I was met by a lovely young lady of about 18. I thought who's this? She said don't you know me? I said no. She said I'm your niece. Then my mother came and that's when it really hit me because my mother had had lovely brown wavy hair and when I saw she had silver grey hair my immediate thought was it isn't me that suffered in the war not really but my mother's suffered she's borne the pain she's aged so much I had to go through this process there was no one I knew they were all different people I had a month's leave and if I went out at night I didn't know anybody all the people I knew had disappeared gone I went to the pub they were only open for about an hour because there was no beer there was no one I knew so I didn't feel I belonged I was like a foreigner it was terrible an awful experience then I met a fellow who was in some regiment he never went abroad he was lucky stayed in England helped me a bit he was about the same age as me it took a long time I thought why didn't someone tell me I don't know if other people had the same experience but I felt cheated somehow like I'd lost my youth and everyone had grown old I then realized that I was older I didn't realize.

3:19I felt I was only about 19. It was like I'd been living in a dream, an imaginary world, and now I was coming back to reality. And those are the words of Sam Bradshaw. Welcome to We Have Ways to Make You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, and our fourth and final part of the story of One Man's War, where what we've done is we've, I mean, we've done in previous episodes, we've done some big arrows on maps to tell you what's going on, but we've really been trying to look at sam's experiences as a as a fighting man um in the royal tank regiment 6 rtr in the desert um uh and how he feels about his experiences as well as the absolutely harrowing first combat proper that he had where he lost in an ambulance with a major who'd lost his arm and a and a another guy bleeding out of me extraordinary harrowing stuff so i mean we're not wrapping up with Sam here.

4:11We're flying forward a little bit and we'll come back to his homecoming and what he does about it but Jesus, that's devastating, isn't it? It's so thought-provoking. Just hearing you read that out again, it's all sort of coming back to me, that conversation I have with him and it's one of the things that I was so determined to make sure that we got that voice in this series because I, you know, I interviewed him 25 years ago but I remember that so well about his mum going grey and not belonging and no one to talk to and no one preparing him for it. yeah but but hearing it again i mean jesus it's it's a bit that no one ever thinks about isn't it well it is isn't it and the thing is is because um for the patreons i've just been doing my grandfather's letters home from france in northwest europe and i think about my grandmother receiving these letters then he did and then he you know he didn't come back you know it's not just the guys going off in khaki in the slate gray or the rot navy blue is it it's the people at home having to carry it or bear it who are who are facing loss and his sister dies is awful isn't it i mean as a thing to a thing to come home to absolutely devastating aside from all his mates who've bought it um his family have paid the price yeah yeah yeah it's this this idea that you're coming back from a dream you're coming back to reality but the reality is so disappointing it's just it's just awful it's just it's just that despair that he's describing he you know whatever it was you know when i met him he was 80.

5:34it's so raw still isn't it yeah yeah i mean that's the thing it's just amazing yeah anyway we'll talk we should start not by by the sort of chronological details of what what he what he did in we're still in north africa by the way um we got him back to the alamein line haven't we got him through the first battle of alamein our last episode but but but i thought it's interesting some of the some of the kind of broader stuff he talked about was really interesting and this was when blokes were writing letters to the manchester reading news and sending lonely heart letters and uh he wasn't really much interested it was ever good go on it's great life you know you get letters back it's brilliant you've got someone to write to and it's sort of you know something to do and the blokes are doing this and he says eventually they were getting some cracking girls and they put me in for it though i didn't know i must have drawn the shorts drawer because the girl i got honest to god of all these beautiful girls this one i mean honestly but he but he does write to her so he writes to her saying you know he's a lonely soldier doesn't commit himself in any way he's very very very kind of careful about that but but you know how nice it is to communicate with someone you know where we are in the desert blah blah blah you know long way from home and and uh we'd love to hear her news and what she's up to blah blah blah anyway he gets he gets a letter saying she's had a child went out on the night had too much to drink next thing she knows etc etc incredible yeah his phlegmatic relax reaction to this I think is very interesting isn't it I thought I'm not taking that on so I wrote and told her I wasn't prepared to continue the relationship because I wasn't prepared to take on a ready-made family it was cruel really but you're very selfish in war you only think of yourself survival you do sacrifice for your friends that's a different thing I love Jim that you were you were able to get obviously he wanted to talk about this obviously he was prepared to talk about this and and lays feelings open from after all this time but I mean you really got him he sang like a canary James it's very impressive I think I was really honestly I think I was incredibly lucky that I was doing it when I was doing it because you know what I'm like if I get into something I get into it so I don't hide this stuff you know let everyone know how excited I am about things you know there I was I was like 32 or something so I was really young still and I was just just tell me everything and because i didn't i wasn't coming at it from a military history perspective i was very much coming it from a kind of this is human drama about which i know very little and i'm on a massively steep learning curve and you literally can't tell me enough i i think he was flattered that someone of my age was interested in this and what i tend to see my my interview technique was always to just start at the very beginning you know where do you grow up what was it like you know family kids you know locking around what were your schoolmates like what sort of trouble did you get up to all this kind of stuff kind of eases them in you know i worked this out really early on you know he knew that i'd driven up from southern england to wigan to hear him talk and for these guys also it's incredibly cathartic because i'm a young bloke i look at that stage vaguely like some of the old men that the old boys that they served with yeah back in the day so there's that kind of weird kind of yeah yeah this guy's sight reminds me of of how i was once kind of thing i think going on youth jim youth yes and i think it they found quite often found it very difficult to talk to their own family because they don't want their own family thinking of them in this way and this is cathartic i'm a neutral party and so they can just unburden themselves and they're flattered that i want to write about them in a book of course otherwise they would have said yes you know so there's not you know it's not it's not great any great great human um insight on my part it's just unbridled enthusiasm and fascination to be listening to people like him talking about this so candidly it worked even with the jerrys uh um even with hyo hermann god of all people one of the interesting things about this though about this this stuff about how important writing and letters are and contact, that it's absolutely central to their sort of part of their emotional keeping themselves together, or certainly in his case, keeping themselves together emotionally, how important the mail was back then.

9:49And, you know, he said to you what a lot of people don't realise is just how long some of us spent out there. It was years. Writing and receiving letters keeps you in touch with home. And we obviously touched on what that then leads to when he gets home. But I mean, people aren't doing tours, are they? You're not going to north africa for a tour you're there for six months the six months would break halfway through quickly flown home come back again no decompression in cyprus no nothing like that nothing like that no no there's no there's no drinking in pubs two days after you're in a fob in kandahar he was a home for for four years ten months four years ten months i mean nearly five years yeah nearly but but anyway um i you know the the thing is he was young and single so it was kind of easy for him and he made this point i've never ever forgotten this story this is a story that that really at the time really upset me and and he said that he always noticed that most of the blokes in the regiment and in his company in b squadron rather those with wives or girlfriends at some point they invariably received a dear john a dear john letter and he said of it he read out parts of them she had a peculiar name brin but we all felt we were part of his life and that she was somehow our girl too there's this guy in the in in his in his troop called ronnie dowie and everyone loves ronnie ronnie's just like a really good bloke and he's just totally solid, totally dependable, morally upright, looks after them all.

11:20And he has a fiancé back home and she writes Ronnie letters. And this can't be uncommon as well. He says he would read out parts of them. She had a peculiar name, Burn, and we all felt we were a part of his life and that she somehow was our girl too. Yeah, so the letters, they just make them feel connected to this sort of rather hazy, distant world of home. And it becomes like a soap opera. you know because it's like tuning into corey every week you know you're waiting for later to know what's going to happen what's what you know because because there's all these little cliffhangers in the letters you know she's gonna she's crosses someone and she's gonna go and give it to it give it to this bloke and you know and they're waiting to find out what what the denouement is of this this confrontation and all the rest of it whenever burn wrote they'd all kind of go well what's she got to say then come on yeah what's what's the news and dowie would fill him in yeah dowie would say oh she's had her hair changed and we'd say i'm not sure about that and you'd realise how important the little things are.

12:15So it's the gossip substitute basically, isn't it? It's because there's nothing to gossip about. And he says, we were hoping and praying that their relationship would survive and it did. We used to say, you lucky bloke. Yeah, so anyway, so then one day Sam hears from the boys that Ronnie's received bad news from Bryn and that night Sam arranges to do prowler guard with Ronnie. Ronnie tells him everything. He goes, I've had a letter from Bryn and she's finished with me. Well, perhaps she's just a bit fed up. They're going through what we're going through, you know. Give it a while, she'll come round.

12:46No, she means it. And now I've got nothing to live for. And Ronnie starts twisting the ring he'd given her on his finger. I mean, you know, it's just, oh dear. Sam says to him, don't be stupid, Dowie. You're only a kid. You've got the rest of your life. Give it some time. It's just a phase. Don't give up. All this talk of ending it, you forget about that you're a good tank driver and you've got a crew will depend on you sam then asked for ronnie's word that he won't do anything stupid and ronnie assures him he won't but the very next day this is part of the crusader battle this is the day before sam gets wounded is himself um ronnie's missing and his radio operator has survived and sam asks him what's happened and he goes we were hit and there was a terrible smell of petrol the man tells him the tank commander told us all to bail out but dowie stayed on and drove straight at the german guns sam recalled that was a terrible thing and who knows a few days later another letter might have arrived telling him it was all a mistake poor ronnie he was such a nice lad it's heartbreaking jim devastating you know life in the desert is is very tough i mean people have talked about it a lot very hot during day very cold during night could be really cold in winter full stop actually um lots of inconveniences.

14:04It's very dry. It's very arid. Mosquitoes near the coast, little bugs, scorpions, a big problem. And of course, the flies. The flies are absolutely dreadful. He's also got a kind of very typical young man's attitude to death. He's seen plenty of it, but he also thinks it's not going to be him. Confidence, of course, is massively shaken by his experience at Sidi Rezeg. Yeah. It's accumulative. and he does he did talk about the sort of courage bank uh and he and he said that that after they'd been out in africa about two years he was approached by doey baker do you remember we talked about doey baker earlier on the sort of super guy that everyone looked up to the brilliant gunner the super sportsman he was still and he's still part of the regent well but on the subject of doey baker's nickname so i was doing some reading today and i came across two written nicknames that i think are um actually i i thought okay finally someone's using some imagination here because Dowie Baker, let's be honest now, lads, you haven't really stretched out to find that nickname.

15:07One of them was a guy called Bob Soda Fountain. That was his nickname was Soda. And that's funnier than Dowie Baker, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. The other was a colonel in the Australian army whose nickname was February because he was fond of putting blokes on a 28-day charge. Toast is good. Burnham Brown, Toast, that's really good. But I just think to actually have a nickname that involved like not just calling someone Chalky White or whatever, But February, and that's because he was tough and he used 28-day charges a lot to put people on 28-day charges a lot. Yeah, that's very, very strong.

15:38I love it, right? My favourite of all time, though, is still the guy I was at school with. He was called Howard Phyllis and everyone just called him Sif. That was funny. So Dowie asked for a word of confidence. He said, I've had it. I can't take it anymore. I'm going to pieces. I realised that a lot of the young soldiers look up to me and other people look up to me because I've set an example. And I'm frightened to disgrace myself and set a bad example. I told him to go back and see the MO and talk to him and explain to him that he'd reached the end. He was very calm. And two days later, he said to me, I feel like a coward.

16:13I feel ashamed. I said, no, you're a brave man. Go back and be honest. You can't be more than honest. So Doey does go and see the MO, who gives him very short shrift and warns him he won't hesitate to court-martial him if he doesn't buck up. Yeah. And Sam says, I thought, God, that's a shame. But he carried on. No one else ever knew. And I carried on supporting him. And he made it. Yeah, so good. Because everyone's expecting Doey to come a cropper, but he doesn't. He gets a blighty wound, doesn't he? Yeah, and goes home. But I mean, the people are talking to each other about this. The guys. Again, they were getting a glimpse into a thing that doesn't very often come up, does it?

16:53You know, in that way. These guys are growing up, aren't they? that's the bottom line well they're growing up but under under under extremes they're not growing up like you know on scooters and vaping they're growing up um under extreme extreme pressure aren't they so we left him at first um alamein in terms of the combat that that's where we um uh left 6 rtr wasn't it they're very badly depleted by this point um this is september 1942 so it's before the second battle of alamein i think it's really interesting you know contrast with german armoured regiments who expected to just keep fighting and fighting and fighting i mean you know we remember we were talking about the whole of i think it was at 16 panzer division after smolensk having 12 left or something still got to keep going that doesn't happen in the british army and quite right too now and around this time b squadron is is sent to eighth army tactical headquarters at burgh el arab and the task is to protect the army commander and his staff who of course is now monty yeah so they've gone back to look after ghq essentially sam's a bit jaded by at this point.

17:55Yeah, he says, we were supposed to be very proud about this, but to be honest, it didn't seem that great in honour. Alright, no pleasing to some people, is it? Yeah. I know, and I said to him, I remember saying to him, what did you think of Monty? And he went, oh, not a huge amount, to be perfectly honest.

18:10Oh well. Anyway, one of the squadron, Jock Fraser, is given the job of driving Monty around whenever he needs a tank. And it's Jock, according to Sam, who suggests St. Monty wear a tank beret instead of the Aussie's broad brim hat. And the idea sticks. What? You know, that's a jolly good idea. I think I will do that. I will do that. Thank you, Fweza. I will not be crediting you with that idea. That was my idea. Carry on. Very well done. And that's that. That'll be that Grant tank that was in the Imperial War Museum foyer for all those years. The Monty tank. I'll be it. Within touching distance of that, Jim.

18:49That's very cool. After this stint protecting Monty, they're pulled out of the line, aren't they? B squadron they joined back up with the rest of the regiment at Kataba on the 17th of November and he's been at war now for two years actually he's been at war more than that because he goes he goes over kind of early 1940 all of 1941 nearly three years actually yeah yeah yeah yeah but sort of fighting for two really um and he says eventually the message got through that things were falling apart there are reserves but there's always a limit he isn't suffering in silence here is he he's it's becoming clear that he's knackered well they're all are you know and they're taking on new boys but but you know they've been devastated they've been devastated at city rosek then they're reconstituted and get back in the in the saddle then they have the kind of disaster of knightsbridge then they're in the first battle of alamein there's just you you can't keep going on at that pace so so they're out and actually he has quite a long stint out yes you know over a year really oh that's interesting well yeah because they're not sent to tunisia they're slowly being re-equipped with new tanks which are shermans then they're posted to iraq and to the turkish border and they're up there in case turkey comes in on the german side and because there's all these sort of constant little you know fractiousness about iran and iraq and all the rest of it yeah yeah you know particularly iran where there's that kind of they've had this relationship with germany before the war they also carry out a load of amphibious training you know should they be required for sicily italy whatever right or wherever and it's that he joins the reconnaissance unit so they're about to leave baghdad for training in palestine they're sitting around having a meal when the rsm comes around and says the colonel wants volunteers for a new record unit and sam knows that you should never volunteer but on this occasion he actually does because he recognizes that they are going to be going to italy and he remembers how useful the recce troops were in eritrea where it was quite jungly actually right right and he thinks oh this is close country this is this is this will be quite good and he knows he's good on the radio and he feels he can sort of do with a change.

20:48He's sort of done with tanks. And frankly, who can blame him? Because they're mainly using armoured cars. So they start off training in humbers and things and dingoes and whatnot. And they have a special type of honey tank, which has got a turret taken off and has got a gun shield in front of it. Yeah, the recce Stuart tank, which is sort of defrocked, as it were, like a priest. In contrast to being in 21st SS Panzer or whatever, you know, they are training and re-equipping and resting out and taking a year off rather than being plugged into the next disaster, which is the way the Wehrmacht do things.

21:22You know, this is a much more sort of considered process, isn't it? They're in Palestine for much the rest of 1943, then in Egypt in early 1944, and then they're shipped to Italy at the end of April in 1944 and get to Taranto on the 4th of May 1944. So they're coming on the end of Operation Diadem. That's quite the break, isn't it? So one hopes his batteries are sufficiently recharged. Yes, it is a break. Talking of which. Let's take one and we'll return with Sam in Italy. We'll see you in a second.

21:57Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13. You know that friend you only call when you need something? HomeServe's here for you. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back for regular use, where basic homeowners insurance typically won't help. With a protection plan from HomeServe in place before disaster strikes, Just call us.

22:43We'll send a qualified contractor and help you avoid unexpected expenses. Maybe we're the last ones you want to call, but we're happy to hear from you. Go to homeserve.com slash audio for 50 % less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price point in Florida. The most memorable gifts aren't found. They're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal, a photo, a name, an inside joke. the kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find.

23:19Right now, save 25 % on your first order at Zazzle.com. That's Zazzle.com. Make it Z-amazing.

23:32Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland. Now, Jim, we said that they've deployed to Toronto, to Italy. at the end of Operation Tired him. He's only 23, though. And we've done this much storied thing, summary, and examined his feelings and how he feels he's, you know, maybe running out of puff at one point or courage. And yet he's only 23. It's ridiculous, isn't it? It's absolutely insane. And when you think about his truculence, when he's put on a charge for losing his pistol, you can see why whatever age he was, but when you realise he was only probably 21 at that point, fair enough, don't you think?

24:11I mean, yeah, absolutely. So the reconnaissance troops have a really important role in Italy where the terrain is a lot closer. And of course, by May 1944, Sam's a key member of this recce unit because he's extremely experienced, both as a trooper and a radio man. He finds when he gets to Italy that they're immediately sent up to the diadem front. So he passes through Casino and the wreckage of Casino. He goes up on the Via Casalina on the way to Rome. and really he first starts seeing action in the war north of Rome, following the catch of Rome on the 4th of June. And he finds he feels absolutely no ill will to the Italians at all.

24:50None at all. Yeah, he says, when you get close to the families, Italian mothers would come up to you and say, Inglezi, bueno, my son was a prisoner in Africa. He's now in Bristol. Can you tell me how he is? We'd say, he's okay. And once or twice, they'd ask us to go to the POW camp when we got home to see if their son was okay. You'd say you'd try. that's very sweet of him and impossible but i mean they have this this one thing the other thing that they're not prepared for as well because when they've been in north africa they haven't had lots of people sort of all around them all the time you know it's been africa's been kind of quite sort of you know starved of so particularly in the western desert in libya and egypt's been starved of of um of locals really but suddenly there's lots of italians they're all starving as we know you know we've talked about this in earlier episodes and things they're all told don't feed the italians you know your rations are for you you need them don't get them out and he says there's this one moment where this this woman has got this baby and and she's clearly starving and she's sort of you know coming out so one of his mates jumps down and gives her some food and then the whole column spontaneously stops and they feed this huge column of italians and the officers go no quite right he says this we should do more of this wow it's absolutely amazing anyway they're they're attached to um fourth indian division in fifth corps um north of rome and they're now in in a combination of stewards of honeys tanks and and dingo armor cars and sam by this point is is de facto leader in his troop well in fact the whole recce unit because there's like 11 tanks on there something like that it's quite small and until the new co arrives because immediately after the of the Rome, they're supporting the Gurkhas.

26:29And Sam likes the adjutant of the Gurkha battalion. He's called Lieutenant Robinson, but Sam calls him Robbo. His view of them is one that's like eternal. You know, you talk to people in the army now and they would say all of this. Yeah. Exactly, word for word. The Gurkhas were very good blokes, very good officers. There was no class distinction with them. There was with our officers. I was Brad with them and I was one of them. With our fellows, they'd sit one side of the tent and we'd sit the other, very much so. So, I mean, this sort of love affair with the Gurkhas remains, doesn't it? As you say.

27:02So they're out in little troops of three Stuarts per troop, and then each troop with each squadron. He's running this show, isn't he? So he's commanding three of these Stuarts, turretless Stuarts. Because the thing with the Stuart is the gun it's got isn't worth it. They've now got guns, these ones. Ah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got rid of the Humber armour cars, and they're now all in tannies. Because it's interesting, isn't it, though? because you can see why you take the tarry off because it's got quite a high profile, the Stuart. And if what you're actually using it for is nosing about, having a look, a high profile isn't particularly helpful, is it?

27:39Yeah, they just found that the armoured cars weren't cutting it. They were in Italy. That's probably a leftover from the winter. And so you needed a little bit more control that you get from tracks. So they just put them back in honeys. Yeah, so they're trained in armoured cars and these cut down, these defrocked honeys. because they use those in normandy a lot don't they the the stewart's without the without the turret you can see why because the gun it's got isn't gonna really help is it if you run into trouble what's going to help is the reverse gears i think yeah and the fact that yeah and he did he did say that these things could go pretty fast you know when particularly the defrock ones but anyway so they reach urbino um on the 26th of august and and sam's thinking brilliant you know get heads down get some food get some proper vino get a bit of food bit of rest you know because as recce troops they're always several hours ahead of the rest of the advance that's all point but he's given orders to press on regardless as soon as he arrives um and so they continue on into the kind of sort of mountainous terrain around it and as night falls sam finds a shallow cave to shelter in and then a jeep pulls up and it's the new recce unit commander lieutenant mcdonald and And Lieutenant McDonald's actually is a bit more experienced than his rank suggests.

28:56Sam, though, he's got a bucket load of experience and he's been running the show for quite a long time. So he's got the point where he's not really willing to stand on ceremony. You know, he's not willing to stand on ceremony in any way whatsoever. So he says, you're the commander and we have to obey your orders, but you have to share the work. We can't afford to have passengers. That's okay with me. you tell me i'll do it says mcdonald yeah yeah that's amazing isn't it um but um you know this is how sam intends to start but they start disagreeing straight away basically um sam believes that there are reckons there are german anti-tank guns positioned across the valley but mcdonald left element on wants to push on as per his orders and the point is is that sam's got a sixth sense of this stuff now you know he's he's learned that through several woundings and and all the rest of it so mcdonald then says well if you're afraid to go forward don't you say that to me i've been in this war a long time i'm trying to give you the benefit of my advice and experience yeah we know this is going to pan out don't we he ignores it doesn't he gets into his steward and goes forward and a hundred yards further on the tank is hit one man escapes but then his machine gun to his death.

30:11The rest, including McDonald, burn in the tank. And Sam thinks, I thought, Christ, they were my friends. I felt it was my fault. I should have stopped him. I should have belted him, knocked him out or something. Those fellows had trusted me and I felt terrible. But they push on, as you do. Sam's effectively de facto commander again, and they reach Monte Calvo and Sam and his recce unit are pulled into street fighting and getting out of their tanks and clearing houses with Tommy guns and hand grenades and stuff. I mean, you know, Jesus. And they're also battling with endless mines and booby traps that the Germans have planted, which is what they're famous for.

30:47And we haven't actually done anything on the war north of Rome, but we should do at some point because it's a hell of a story. Anyway, they're then advancing through a little town called Tavoleto with the Gurkhas again a few days later. And there's an incident where in a farmhouse just outside the town, Sam's driver is about to lie down on a carpet of straw when Sam immediately pulls him back. and it turns out there were 24 shoe mines buried underneath. And Sam said, we would have both been killed just like that. I mean, yeah, they would. No doubt about that. And the clothes shaves continue. So as you've said, Jim, the recce tanks are well ahead of the rest of the regiment and they're moving up with the 4th 11th Sikhs.

31:29Sam acting as a liaison officer to the Indian infantry and they pushed on through the town of Alditore and into a long valley with a shallow river running through it. enemy positions on the far side. And Sam counts three haystacks. As he takes a look, he counts three haystacks in that direction. But the next morning, when they're coming up to the start line, he counts 11. Where have these eight haystacks appeared from overnight? He says, I thought that's bloody strange. And when you're tired, that's when you begin to doubt and wonder whether you're imagining things. He insists on speaking to the Lieutenant Colonel of the Sikhs before the attack is launched.

32:03He says he thinks that the enemy had been massively reinforced overnight. So the colonel postpones the attack on hearing this and sends patrols out to find out, to investigate. And Sam is sent to find a fording point across the river. So he goes on foot by himself. This is incredible. As he returns, he spots loads of German troops hiding in the trees on the Sikh side of the river. So he's in trouble now. He starts to run for his life. He gets to his tank and yells at the crew to start it up and get ready to reverse. The infantry need to be warned. And as he's climbing onto the tank, fire starts to zing in from the enemy's side.

32:40And he feels this sting in his throat. And I went over the side of the tank and lay down. There's blood running all over the place. I thought, Christ, I've been shot in the throat. Even then, he's trying to calm down his wireless operator who's panicking. So Sam may have been hurt, but he's like, I've got to take care of the others too. Finds a field dressing, uses it to stem the bleeding. He can barely, he doesn't really, he can barely talk. He still manages to get to the river, but Fording Point bearings, he sends them out by code over the radio. He says, by then I was feeling bloody bad. I thought I was dying.

33:13And then once they've extricated themselves for this fix, Sam staggers out, collapses in a ditch by the side of the road. Two Sikh soldiers rush up, take it to a Red Cross post. He's given morphine and he's put in a Red Cross Jeep and off he goes. And the driver, though, is an American volunteer. here and as soon as they leave the enemy get a bead on the ambulance on the jeep the shells zipping over and the the he's going the driver was panicking driving all over the road and i was more worried about going over a sheer drop than i was about being hit by a shell and sam despite the fact it's sam who's been injured there's this you know blood pouring out of his throat shot in the neck yeah shot in the neck he has to calm the driver down it's it's him again that has to do are like everything's gonna be okay don't worry um as they're as they're driving back towards a dressing station it's incredible they do find a dressing station in a school in a village and and he's able to be treated he spends quite a long time in hospital again and and he's finally shipped home and it's and it's end of the year 1944 sort of you know november time i think it is yeah so he's wounded beginning of september back home november and he says this is amazing This is a guy who's very badly wounded in November 1941 as part of Crusader.

34:29You know, a terrible leg injury where the shrapnel had to be cut out to the opposite side of his leg. But he says about going home, it was the worst thing about the war. No one had conditioned me about what to expect. Yeah, and then there's this terrible moment where there's, you know, not only the pub's empty and being served watered down beer, he then leaves the pub and walks past his own school. Oh, this is awful. And he says, I sat down and I just broke down. It was terrible and I felt so shamed. But I was mentally ill, bloody ill. I didn't tell anyone. So he stays on in the army and he volunteers for service in North West Europe.

35:08He joins a completely different unit, an armoured unit, and gets sent out to North West Europe. And he's there up in, and he ends up to Bad Fallingbostel, which is near Belsen. And he is amongst those being part of the liberation, you know, in April 1945. After the war, he finally gets commissioned and he retires in the army, stays in the army, retires as a major, later becomes chairman of the Eighth Army Veterans Association. Wow. Marries and goes on to have seven children. What a lovely fellow he was. But I said to him, you know, did you ever have nightmares after the war? You know, did you struggle with it?

35:45He said, yes, he did. Always. Faces you don't forget, names you forget. I can think of people when they were killed and where they were killed and places and incidents and you don't really value the comradeship when you're there you take it for granted it's afterwards you realise what these fellows really meant to you and the wonderful things people did for each other a close relationship it's a strange thing but I never thought I'd ever die I knew it was quite a strong possibility but I always thought it would be someone else and I felt a bit cowardly in that sort of wishing it on them and not me and thinking I'm sorry but I'm glad it's you and not me.

36:21It's self-preservation. Anyway, do you want to know the good news? Go on, Jim. Sam lived to 100. He died in 2022. Incredible. That is fantastic. Well, Jim, thanks so much for sharing that with us. I mean, you know, we do do a lot of arrows on maps or inventories of factories and you know what I mean? But to talk about an individual and to get that glimpse into how he felt about what he went through. and there he was frank about the downs as well as the ups because you know all too often you get you get people say well you know there's bits I'd rather not talk about but all in all it was I wouldn't have missed it for the world what a jolly experience that was for him to talk about going home and how hard that was yes or like Tubby when he's being depth charged 36 times I suppose it was a bit hairy one way of putting it Tubbs you know it's just one of those ones that one of those people that i'll never forget and one of those ones that those conversations that i had several conversations with him i knew him pretty well uh one of those things where it just sort of stays with you you know and um the the ronnie dowie um the story about going back home the terrible ambulance journey after his wound in city rezeg you know the uh yeah the lieutenant mcdonald arriving in italy there was quite a lot of stuff in italy that we didn't have really have time to go into this there's a bit more of it than than we told but yeah just remarkable remarkable a remarkable man remarkable life and just you just how can you not be in awe of these people these ordinary men from their ordinary backgrounds you know in merseyside or crosby or wherever and boy they they they step up to the plate don't they but he joins the army thinking it'll be like a lark and it and it a bit of an adventure he's not really joining because he feels he has to do his bit he's thinking oh it'll be a bit of a lark a bit of an adventure discovers soon enough that it ain't no lark it ain't for all the like parts exotic and the foreign travel it ain't no lark it ain't no adventure but that doesn't mean he there did he decides to check out as a result does it it doesn't mean he thinks what i need then is a blighty wound or i've got to find a way of driving a lorry in the rear in the rear or whatever you know what i mean he he still yeah yeah applies himself to it sticks with it and finds his finds his way through and i think that's really interesting too because you know the callow boy the 18 year old who joins the ta for the uniform and probably the nice and the and the food at the weekend you know finds himself in in in fighting at knightsbridge which could which really that would be plenty for me i'd probably be saying surely i've done my bit now i think i've done my bit thanks very much uh but there you are kind of two years later in italy i mean jesus getting getting shot in the neck and you but but also what i think was so nice about that is is is you reading out all those bits you really got a sense of his voice and his character didn't you i have a very vivid picture of what he was like but but you must get a pretty good idea from from this series of what kind of man he was.

39:26He's sort of young and bright and proud and stubborn and cussed, but incredibly honest. And thoughtful and honest and considered. And, you know, that's how we've ended up with so much good stuff to talk about. Well, thanks everyone for listening. We hope you've enjoyed that. I think this might be a thing we come back to as other individuals to sort of do a bit of this colouring in. Well, I've got lots of them. Interviewed about 300 people in my time. So, you know. We hope that you've joined the We Have Ways Patreon where there's all sorts of goodies. There's audiobooks. There's episodes without adverts.

39:58You can work your way through four-parters as and when they come in. There's the live cast as well, kind of every other Monday. We will see you very soon. Thanks for listening. Cheerio. Cheerio.

40:16Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. You know that friend you only call when you need something? HomeServe's here for you. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back for regular use, where basic homeowner's insurance typically won't help. With a protection plan from HomeServe in place before disaster strikes, just call us.

41:02We'll send a qualified contractor and help you avoid unexpected expenses. Maybe we're the last ones you want to call, but we're happy to hear from you. Go to homeserve.com slash audio for 50 % less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price point in Florida. The most memorable gifts aren't found. they're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find.

41:38Right now, save 25 % on your first order at Zazzle.com. That's Zazzle.com. Make it z 'amazing.