Operation Barbarossa: Countdown (Part 4)

0:02Al Murray: Thank you for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com slash we have ways.

0:25Al Murray: This episode is brought to you by WISE. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer and no surprises along the way. WISE keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees.

1:06Al Murray: So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and C's apply.

1:46milligram injection. ZepBound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if ZepBound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZEPBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems.

2:22Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZEPBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip, the Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules.

3:01And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone.

3:23Al Murray: After the banquet, an extraordinary scene ensued at the train station as Matsuoka and his team boarded the Trans-Siberian for the journey home in full view of the Moscow diplomatic corps. never before had Stalin come to see off a foreign visitor. A British journalist was therefore astonished to see the verged lumber onto the platform in his military coat in leather boots and overshoes and his brown visored cap, followed by Molotov. The Japanese diplomats, the Britain observed, came to life with a bang when Stalin and Molotov made their appearance. They surrounded the Soviet leaders and began shaking their heads, slapping their backs and talking in several languages and in very raucous voices.

4:04Al Murray: Molotov and Stalin then began embracing the Japs, patting them on the shoulders and exchanging expressions of intimate friendship. Stalin went up to the aged and rather diminutive Japanese ambassador general, punched him on the shoulder rather hard with a grin and an ah, ah, ah, so that the general, who has a bald and freckled pate and is not more than four feet ten in height, staggered back three or four steps, which caused Matsuoka to laugh in glee. And that's an extract from Sean McMeekin's incredible book, Stalin's War, A New History of the Second World War. Welcome to We Have Ways of Making You Talk with me, Al Murray, and James Holland for our fourth episode of our Barbarossa series.

4:43Al Murray: And this episode is entitled Countdown, isn't it, Jim? And how good is it to be reunited with our favourite Japanese diplomat, Matsuoka? Please, please, not him again. Let's see how I can screw this up. This is a world view of Barbarossa, isn't it? As you said, at the end of the last episode, there's lots of moving plates. And we've called this episode Countdown, which means there has to be a conundrum. The Countdown Conundrum. And the Countdown Conundrum facing Joseph Stalin is what to do about his eastern border with the Japanese. And the thing is, this has been a massive problem for the Russian Empire.

5:26Al Murray: You know, the Tsar before him came thoroughly unstuck fighting the Japanese. They've been enemies for the last 40 years. Since Japan came into the sort of modern sphere, they've had nothing but trouble with frontier disputes and naval engagements and all this sort of stuff. and obviously the Soviets have their plans, their ambitions, particularly in Europe, and the Japanese have their ambitions in the Eastern sphere, in what they regard as their sphere of influence. So it's in both governments' interests, Jim, to sort this out, isn't it? Well, it absolutely is. And of course, the problems facing Japan are exactly the same ones that are facing Germany, that they haven't got enough of everything and they want to expand.

6:07They've got a growing population and they haven't got enough food and they haven't got enough natural resources themselves so they can get it from elsewhere. and they've also got themselves in a pickle by going into China and not finishing the job. So now they've got to think of the alternative. I mean, the similarities with the conundrum facing the Japanese and conundrum facing Hitler are really obvious, I think. But it is now in the interest of the Japanese to solve one of the problems, which is the threat from the Soviet Union. And it is absolutely in the interest of Stalin to equally solve a problem of the Japanese.

6:37So, you know, they're coming at it from the right place, both parties, I would say.

6:41Al Murray: However, Yosuote Matsuoka is involved. So who knows how this will turn out? So who knows how this is going to end up? There's a warning there, people. Yeah, exactly. So on the 24th of March, Matsuoka is received by Stalin at the Kremlin. And just to remind everyone, he is the Japanese foreign minister. And to say he's a loose cannon is an understatement. He's a womanizing, hard drinking, gung ho Japanese prince who and, you know, how he stays in post quite as long as he does is anyone's guess. One of the great mysteries. Yeah. But he is there to bury the hatchet with the Soviets. And Stalin wants to do the same, you know, because he wants to focus on the West.

7:24Al Murray: He doesn't want trouble on his eastern flank. um although ironically at the same time they're both reaching out to one another um because the germans are encouraging them to do so yes this is this is a great paradox of the whole thing it's incredible isn't it ribbentrop has urged the japanese to to get involved um uh the previous autumn when he's trying to persuade the soviets to join the tripartite pact and of course he wants to do this because he wants to draw American influence into the sphere of the Japanese and get Japan and America fighting one another so that America can't then fight Germany.

8:03That's a long-term thinking. But I mean, all these guys, their grand strategy is kind of flawed, isn't it, to put it mildly?

8:11Al Murray: Well, so slightly, yeah. And Matsuoka says to Stalin, Japan's war in China is really a war against Anglo-Saxon capitalism and individualism, against England and America. Yeah, of course it is. If you say so, mate. You know, he says, Japan, we're like you. We're collectively minded. We're virtually communist, right? Like you are. Stalin, of course, is absolutely loving this. He's absolutely loving it. The two men agree to work together, don't they? To annihilate the Anglo-Saxon ideology and to build a new world order. Lovely. It's also simple. And Matsuoka then travels from Moscow to Berlin, where Hitler is far less impressed.

8:51You know, because although they're allies, Hitler mistrust Matsuoka and the Japanese generally. Yeah, frankly, a very good reason. Yeah. And Hitler does not reveal any plans for Barbarossa. Matsuoka is delighted by the German encouragement for Japan to attack Singapore and to go to war against Britain and USA. You know, the Germans are going, go on, go on. You must do it. You know you want to. Go on, Jake Singapore. It's rightfully yours. You know you want to. go go hey how about you attack pearl harbor and he's absolutely loving it uh hitler is very guarded about plans and and so on ribbentrop is a bit gobby and um it's far too indiscreet it makes absolutely clear that relations with the soviet union are extremely rocky so matsuo can leaves berlin believing russia and germany are soon gonna be at war so he you know his his antennae are Absolutely on it.

9:46Then he goes back to Moscow. So he goes Moscow, Berlin, Moscow. And in just two weeks since he's last been there, Soviet intelligence has picked up all sorts of clues about what's afoot, which I think is really, really interesting. So, I mean, this is quite the catalogue, isn't it? So 26th of March, Soviet counterintelligence intercepted a telegram from the Turkish embassy in Moscow to Ankara, passing on a report that Germany is preparing to strike the USSR. What? The next day, 27th of March, Beria's NKVD, so Beria's the head of the NKVD, he has spies in Berlin, of course he does, reports to Stalin that Goering's air ministry had begun intensive preparations for a bombing campaign against the Soviet Union in case of war.

10:28You know, it's all starting to add up. The same day is the Allied-backed coup in Belgrade, Stalin supports. Then on the 4th of April, Schulenberg, who is the ambassador for Germany in Moscow, confronts Molotov about the rumoured Soviet pact with Belgrade. And then on the 6th of April, Stalin does sign the pact with the Yugoslav army and has been backing it all along. So he's effectively backing a coup which is working against his ally. Yeah. So, you know, it's sort of like Hitler hasn't got provocation, I would say.

11:07Al Murray: Well, yeah. Well, yes. Although, I mean, you know, I think this is Hitler. Hitler complaining about other people's shabby behaviour is perhaps, it's a little rich for my diet. I don't know about you. And Double Sanders has never been an issue with the terror. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Although he's been right about a couple of things in this series. Let's still remember, you know. But Matt Sokka reads all this because I think what's interesting about Matt Sokka, he's got good intuition. He's got, you know, it's just that he's also a hopeless twat. Sorry.

11:42Al Murray: He twigs that this means obviously Japan can probably, there's some wriggle room here with the Soviet Union. And Stalin actually is every bit as accommodating as Matsuoka hopes, you know, that they agree that the common enemy is the USA and Britain and that Chiang Kai-shek is an agent of Anglo-Saxon capitalism. i mean i you know because he is because he knows that everyone knows that and you know and actually you could say american support for chankoshek's chinese nationalism you could be borne out by that description if if that's if that's your ideological um refraction of things yeah that's right he's not going to make anything up there is he matsuoka yeah and a lot of the sticking points between japan and japan and and and the soviet union has been those islands north of japan east of the Soviet border, you know, who owns what?

12:30And what Matsuoka suggests is that they, let's just park the island disputes for a moment. Let's just not worry about it. And instead focus on a neutrality pact. And Stalin says, for more than 30 years, Japan and Russia have regarded each other as enemies. We have fought wars. We made peace, but never became friends. Perhaps if we sign a neutrality pact, it will show the way from enmity to friendship perhaps um but they i mean it's very interesting

13:03Al Murray: isn't it because they do then negotiate with the islands but they but they but they also say but we're not going to sweat we're not going to sweat it over that we're not going to let that get in the way no which is which is kind of interesting um so on april the 13th three o 'clock in the afternoon the soviet japanese neutrality pact is signed in the kremlin um and they both agree to to respect each other's territorial integrity.

13:33Al Murray: So this means the Soviets will recognise Japan's conquest of Manchuria. Yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it. We're cool with Manchuria. Yeah, you be you. And you do you. And the Japanese are going to recognise the Soviet position in Mongolia and Finland, the Baltics, Poland and Romania, because as we've been saying in previous episodes, the Soviets have been getting busy. And this is a five-year pact. What's quite interesting about that is that it's just stack full of Japanese concessions, isn't it, right? The Soviets are accommodating Manchuria, right? And the Japanese are accommodating that great long shopping list of stuff.

14:11Which the Germans don't like, even though Japan and Germany are allies.

14:17Al Murray: There's never been an allegiance like it, Jim. And everyone's saying it. This now means that the Japanese, they know they're safe from Manchuria to strike into Southeast Asia. This is OK now. Matsuoka has this just so mad. So Matsuoka says to Stalin, The treaty has been made. I do not lie. If I lie, my head shall be yours. If you lie, I will come for your head. My head is important to my country. So is yours to your country. Let's take care to keep both our heads on our shoulders. Christ! Not to be confused with Garing, obviously. This basically greenlights what Japan has in mind in the Pacific.

15:04Al Murray: And all the entanglements and all the to and fro they've had with the Americans that we detailed in recent episodes. Basically, the thing that sets the Japanese free is the Soviet-Japanese pact. In terms of the Second War within the Second World War, War B, if you want, this is as important as the Soviet-German pact of August 1939, isn't it? But I would wager that the vast majority of people listening to this podcast have never even heard of it. Those that have, of course, give yourself a biscuit. It's the Soviet Union, two pacts the Soviet Union make that are absolutely central to the unfolding of events in the Second World War.

15:44Al Murray: And very often we like to look at it as German agency and Japanese agency in those things. Who's actually calling the shots? And you could argue it's Stalin, isn't it? I think Stalin is dictating the pace on all of this. Yeah. Completely. I think he's hustling Hitler. There is no question, as we shall discuss in the next part of this series, when Barbarossa actually gets underway, there's no question that Stalin overplays has overplayed his hand in a not very smart way but but it is absolutely the case that they are kind of making the pace on all of this yeah let's go back to to the other main player in this the other person making decisions and that's that's Hitler of course and what's going on in Germany now that now that Barbarossa is basically going to happen now it's a done it's a done deal in terms of the decision and you can see the economic benefits It's flowing into Germany from the moment they cross the borders from the breadbasket of Europe and all the rest of it, and Ukraine, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

16:49Yeah. But this is the point where it takes a subtle shift because what they're consumed by is a need to annihilate the Red Army in those Western areas. And what does that mean? That means destroying the Red Army's military totally within 500 kilometers, pretty much, of the current border. So how do you do that? How do you defeat your enemy so emphatically that the rest of the country is just completely stuffed? And you do that by complete annihilation. And complete annihilation means extreme violence. Yeah. And so suddenly, the ideology of the whole thing, which underpinned Mein Kampf, which underpinned much of Hitler's thinking in the 1920s and on into the 1930s, is suddenly coming to the fore.

17:41Because what had originally been conceived in terms of the wider war against Britain, these priorities as it's getting closer to launch date and it's suddenly starting to sort of clarify in his mind what they've got to do and the challenge, A shift comes with how they're going to conduct this. I think that's the point.

18:02Al Murray: Yeah. And he'd written about this in Mein Kampf, that there will be an ultimate clash with Bolshevism one day. You know, he says, conquering new Lebensraum in the East and ruthlessly Germanizing it. Whatever that means. On the 30th of March at the Fuhrer Conference, Hitler speaks about the war. this being a clash of two ideologies for which the Wehrmacht would have to undertake a war of extermination. They're not shying away from what their intentions are. And Barbaros is going to be a clear break from all previous German campaigns, which is interesting, seeing as that they're resting on all previous German campaigns as the reason they're going to be able to do this, but they're going to nevertheless go up a gear.

18:41Al Murray: It's going to be a totaler Krieg, as defined by Erich Ludendorff in his book of the same name in 1935. Yeah, he was of previous So, you know, Lewandorf, obviously the First World War General. And he's obviously saying, well, where we went wrong last time around is we didn't do Totala Creek, which is the annihilation of the enemy army and of the enemy nation. It's not just the armed forces, it's the nation. Yeah, it's the whole thing. It's the whole kit and caboodle. So it's not just a military vehicle. It's the complete crushing of the Soviet state, of communism itself. Judeo-Bolshevism, of course.

19:13Al Murray: Got to remember that there's the racist element in this too. And in part of the preparation for this is General Georg Thomas. And we've been finding him spreadsheet, George, you know, he's got the numbers to upset everyone. Let's not pretend who he is. He draws up the hunger plan. And the idea of the hunger plan is to kill 20 to 30 million Soviet citizens. Well, so that's going to happen through starvation because they're going to take all their food, which then means that lots of Soviet citizens are going to starve. are going to starve and that's terribly unfortunate and very sad but but you know this is a dog eat dog word and and you you know we've got to go through this terrible trauma to safeguard future generations and create the liebenthron that's going to um safeguard the aryan um ideal across um the hegemony in in europe and asia and given the holodomore that's how things are done in this part of their world is they're thinking isn't it that's how you get things done around here you starve people out yeah the holodomor being being for those who don't know is the starvation that that happens to the ukrainians in the 1930s yeah but it's it's quite clear though that that wehrmacht commanders at this stage they're still completely enthralled to hitler as a result they don't confront the military implications of this new approach this radicalized uh you know i mean it's amazing the idea that hitler's radicalized himself even further but he has hasn't he i mean One of the major consequences of this is that there are obviously a lot of people in the Baltic States, a lot of people in Ukraine who have nationalistic yearnings who would probably welcome the German invaders and would fight on their side against Russia.

20:55and obviously could have massively helped the german cause but they've been discounted and and that's because of you know in hitler's insistence on absolute german domination means squandering what what clearly could be a massive advantage yeah potentially a war-winning

21:14Al Murray: advantage yeah yeah yeah and the thing is is the army commanders the vera commanders they go along with this they can't see that they can't see there's a flaw here they're all at it from braukic rouses his officers. He tells them that the upcoming campaign is a struggle between two different races for crying troops to act with all necessary harshness. And then there's General Oberst, Colonel General Herpner, who's commanding the 4th Panzer Group. And he says to his subordinates, he goes, the objective of this battle must be the destruction of present-day Russia, and it must therefore be conducted with unprecedented severity.

21:55Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an iron will to exterminate the enemy mercilessly and totally. In particular, no adherents of the present Russian Bolshevik system are to be spared. I mean, this is a firm out, people. This is not SS.

22:13Al Murray: I mean, I think what's really interesting about this is, you know, there's a great big paper trail. This is all out in the open. But no one can claim they weren't expecting any of this because there's the Barbarossa Directive of the 13th of May 1941, which says all civilians who attacked Germany, right? And this means any small act of any kind of resistance were to be executed. Also expressly clears German troops from prosecution for all offences against the Soviet population. So dangerous doing that. So dangerous doing that. When you've also got the idea that, you know, Jews are the enemy of the Third Reich and of the German folk, That being a Jew in effect is an act of resistance, isn't it?

22:52Al Murray: Because you're an enemy. Jews in the Soviet Union are called partisans. It is on the last day of April that Hitler settles on the 22nd of June for the launch of Barbarossa. Initially, of course, it was going to be May, wasn't it? Yes, that's right. 15th of May. But obviously the Balkans campaign in Yugoslavia and Greece and the invasion of Crete has put pay to that. So 22nd of June it is, and that's now immovable. I mean, the die has most definitely been cast. So, should we take a break and then... Yes, absolutely. Really get into the countdown. Really get into the countdown.

23:33New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at The Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. easily customize the twinkle across trees wreaths and garlands to match your holiday vibe create stunning light effects then switch it up with the top of your fingers even the man in red will be impressed shop the holiday decor you want online only at homedepot.com chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more botox on a botulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month.

24:16It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness.

24:44Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Mr. Monopoly here. Miss me? Monopoly is back at McDonald's with millions of prizes. A 2027 cheap charity. A Carnival Cruise vacation. Gift cards from DoorDash and Best Buy. He'll then play in the McDonald's app.

25:19Get your bag. No purchase necessary. 50 US and DC age 18 plus. See play at mcd.com for rules and play at mcd.com slash AMOE for info and playing without purchase by mail by November 2nd. Chance card game ends November 8th. Game ends November 22nd, 2026. See rules for prize details. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro.

25:37Al Murray: Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. with Miao Murray and James Holland, episode four of our Barbarossa series, titled Countdown. We've looked at the Countdown conundrum. Now we have to get into the intelligence picture here a bit and just briefly touch on this. On the 19th of April, Churchill shares genuine intelligence on German troop movements in Eastern Europe, which has been gleaned from Altra. You know, Bletchley Park have found this stuff out. And of course, the other thing to remember about Bletchley Park is it's not just Churchill telling Stalin this. They've got two people, the Soviets, at least two, in Bletchley Park, who are also transmitting this stuff.

26:10Al Murray: So on receiving this intelligence, right, it's not just coming for Churchill, who would tell the Soviets this anyway, wouldn't they? He would do that. So in the Soviet paranoid mindset, Churchill would say, you're about to be attacked to join us. But they're actual people. You know, John Cairncross has also passed this on to the Soviets, and it's not having the required effect, right? The British tell them, as soon as Yugoslav is defeated, five panzer divisions are going to be transferred from Romania to Poland. But now, why would that be? I mean, what are they for? And so it comes to pass, by the way.

26:41Al Murray: Exactly. And that's exactly what happens. And of course, the Germans do do very well in the Balkans. They zip through Yugoslavia, then on into Greece. Athens falls very quickly on the 27th of April. And again, if your thing is hype about German military effectiveness, no one believes that hype more than the Germans is that thing. You know, other people are dusting themselves down and trying to learn lessons from it. That's what the British are trying to do. That's what the Soviets have done by looking at Blitzkrieg. Well, the Germans are doing it. Great. See, we're still brilliant. We're the absolute, we're top dog, aren't we?

27:13Al Murray: Rather than going, well, maybe the Greeks are crap and the British are disorganized at this point in the war and all this sort of stuff. And four divisions have then moved from Greece to the Central Eastern Front at the last week of April. And OKW, the Oberkommand of the Wehrmacht, you know, basically the people in charge, they suspend all civilian rail travel in Central Eastern Europe in early May. There's something cooking. There's something brewing. You don't need Ultra to tell you that either. No. Another 12 divisions arrive at the front on the 14th of May, another 21 by the 5th of June. And at the start of this series, we had Richard von Rosen's unit moving up.

27:50And they were part of that move in the late spring, early summer. The Luftwaffe are super busy. You know, the overflights of the Luftwaffe. There's 80 violating Soviet airspace between 27th of March and the 18th of April. I mean, it's not even a month. God, that's a lot, isn't it? Yeah, so that's multiple per day. By the end of April, it seems clear that Germans are preparing to strike, but no one's sure where or when. So, you know, that all sounds probably pre-D-Day to me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:18Al Murray: It's coming, but we don't know where, yeah. And, you know, by early May 1941, there are huge numbers of warnings pouring into Moscow. You know, from spies in Berlin, Beria learns on 22nd of May that 25th of June is the attack date. Soviet agents in Bucharest said it's going to come between the 15th and 20th of June. Molotov complains to Schulenburg about the overflights, but gets a kind of polite brush off. And Schulenburg, for those who've forgotten, is the ambassador, German ambassador. Yeah, so it's generally reported, hasn't it, ever since, that Stalin doesn't believe the invasion's going to happen.

28:51Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure about that, you know. And having said that, I mean, Stalin arranges for German officials to see the tank parks and airfields, et cetera. You know, and the implication is that surely Hitler wouldn't be foolish enough to take on an enemy with such a massive advantages of manpower and armor. That's what he's doing. He's not saying, I don't believe you. He's trying to kind of put them off, I think. Stalin also learned from intelligence that the Germans hadn't ordered winter clothing or antifreeze lubricants. So Stalin interprets that as a lack of seriousness from the Germans rather than overconfidence.

29:26Al Murray: Yeah. Yeah, he sees it as caution about not attacking in 1941 rather than what it really is, which is German hubris, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he does a bit of basic like willy waving, doesn't he? There's a massive May Day parade in Moscow. Colossal. Real show of Red Army might. And he also says in the Kremlin that the era of the peace policy is at an end. Yes. And he's going to shift the Soviet policy from defence to offence. So, I mean, he's... He's not holding back, is he? No. You know, you could argue, while he seems to be being blasé about German preparation, you could argue that what he's trying to do is conceal his own against Germany.

30:08Al Murray: There is offensive doctrine being handed down. Marshal Tymoshenko, who's the Soviet Defence Commissar, and General Georgi Zhukov, who will become one of the great figures of the Red Army later in the war, the Chief of Soviet General Staff. In May 1941, they update the Red Army's mobilisation plan with offensive doctrine, not defensive. Yeah, and that is for the invasion in the southwest to come out of Ukraine, basically, and to push into Romania and Bulgaria and all those places they want. They want to kind of sweep on down through the southwest of southern Eastern Europe. That's the plan. And it's completed on the 15th of May, and it proposes a sudden blow on the enemy both from air and on land.

30:45And the plan advises Stalin, it is necessary to deprive the German command of all initiative, to forestall the enemy, and to attack the German army when it is still in the deployment stage, and has no time to organise the distribution of forces at the front. Pretty anacurico, isn't it?

31:02Al Murray: I mean, yeah, but that also, I mean, as you were saying a moment ago, you know, everyone's been looking at the way the Germans won in France, and that's how you defeat the Germans. You attack them while it's still in the deployment stage. You attack them back? And you don't let them get to the point where they can assemble their armoured fists and strike. That's what the French should have done in 1940. And so their thinking is entirely rational in that regard. That's how you defeat the German war machine. And anyway, on the subject of which, I mean, they're running on empty, the Germans, aren't they?

31:36Pretty much, yeah. I mean, this is why they're in this predicament in the first place, because they've literally been in like kids in a sweet shop and swept everything out. I mean, you know, France, for example, on the 1st of January 1940, so before the Blitzkrieg, has comfortably the largest number of motorized vehicles in Europe. Yeah. By the end of December 1940, it has 92 % less than it began the year with. So in other words, it's got 8 % of the vehicles that it started 1940 with by the end of 1940. And that's because the Germans have stolen them all. And they've done this with coal supplies and food supplies and everything, other supplies, and they've just cleaned them out.

32:17And so the problem is that then those countries can't function anymore because the workers can't get to work because they've taken away their cars and they haven't got any coal and they're underfed. So their performance goes down. And the Germans just haven't thought this through because they've just swept in and cleared everything out and and this is the problem the great victories this unstoppable war machine as it seems is papering over vast cracks yeah you know the rationing in germany is is absolutely prohibitive yeah you know germans are starving let alone their kind of prisoners and

32:47Al Murray: yeah all the rest of it so yeah and in the meantime the soviets and the and the british have doubled armament production in 1940 america's tripled it those of you who listen to our visionary series will know that America sort of industrially elastic is absolutely incredible but Germany is stagnated and achieved no growth in 1940 in spite of you know suddenly having no French French factories and all this sort of stuff and the German aircraft industry now has 425 different types of aircraft in production now that's good for plastic model makers now because they get to make lots of different aircraft different types and it keeps you entertained doesn't it boys and girls but but the truth is it's a complete ball ache if you're the love puffer off your producing spare parts and there's 150 different types of truck and motorcycle despite von schell's best efforts to streamline it well you may remember in the first episode i think it was that that we said that what shell was trying to do is create 23 different types of vehicles reduce it to 23 it's still got 150 in the spring of 1941 one uh but this means because of the sort of you know continent-wide plunder and larceny um and this discoordinated um uh industrial policy industrial strategy there will be two thousand different vehicles in the order of battle for for the campaign um the forthcoming campaign all of which all of which means that again just to reiterate the point with different distributor caps with different gaskets with different this with different that you know so different fuel consumption different rates of fuel consumption yes i mean it's just an absolute shocker yeah so the 18th panzer division for example has 96 different types of personal 111 types of trucks and 37 different types of motorcycle how is that going to work there's no max bieverbrook we're only gonna have five aircraft types is it no no no but i mean flip this round This is why the Germans are so good at organising on the hoof.

34:46Because they've got no choice. Because they've got to.

34:50Al Murray: They've got no choice. On Shell, you know, he's crunched the numbers. He's only got enough trucks to keep each motorised division equipped with 70 tonnes of supplies a day. But the likelihood is they're going to need 300 tonnes a day. And, of course, we've talked about this before. that the German army relies on its spearhead to do the popping open of the enemy line is the idea. And for Barbarossa, it's no different. In France, that's all right, because it's a short campaign and France is little compared to the Soviet Union. But 10 % of the army is basically being expected to do 80 % of the fighting.

35:25Al Murray: So the four panzer groups are the key to the entire operation. But there's actually, there's 31 divisions those panzer groups are made up of. Well, 31, yes, yes, 31 motorised divisions. Which just 17 are panzer divisions. They're actually panzer divisions. So immediately, it's the point of the spear, but the point's getting smaller and smaller and smaller, which means it needs to be really sharp. Because you're spreading it. But is it? Because the tanks they really need for the job are the modern types, the Panzer 3s, the Sturgs and the Panzer 4s. But the number of tanks in all four panzer groups, and the four panzer groups is 3 ,505.

36:03Al Murray: And I mean, read this and we... So 20 ,000 less than the Red Army. For a start. Yes, and pushing, only just nudging ahead of the number of T-34s that will be produced that year in 1941. Yeah, and the percentages of the tanks that they have available, and there are seven available if you include the Stug, which is, strictly speaking, an assault gun because it's on a Panzer III chassis with a single gun, fixed gun. So Panzer II, which is tiny and basically has a pop gun, that makes up 28 % of that Panzer IVs. Panzer IIIs make up 21%, so that's a decent number. Model 38s, which are pretty useless, are 19%.

36:44Panzer IV, only 13%. Panzer I, still 8%. Panzer I is literally nothing. It's like a machine gun in it, six foot high. The Stug, 7%, and the Model 35, 4%. And there's also huge discrepancies in these Panzer Groups. So Panzer Group 1, which is the only Panzer Group for Army Group South, has an average of just 154 Panzers, tanks, in each of its four Panzer Divisions. It's just not enough. But Panzer Group 3 of Army Group's centre averages 253 Panzers per division. And the 7th Panzer Division, which is Rommel's old one from the Battle for France, has 299 Panzers. So there's no even split on this, which speaks of a kind of a lack of uniformity or uniformity of structure, which is, I would argue, problematic.

37:36Yeah. And the infantry divisions aren't in great shape either. So 73 divisions are deemed to be below par. So eight divisions are in somewhat lesser offensive strength. 19 divisions are reduced offensive strength. 22 divisions are little offensive strength and mobility, and 24 divisions suitable for rear area duties only. I mean, you start chipping away at that, don't you, a bit?

38:06Al Murray: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we ought to run the top of the pops music under that. Those numbers. Panzer 1 at 8%. Yeah.

38:18It's... Coming in at little offensive strength and mobility, 22 divisions.

38:23Al Murray: Exactly. And the thing is, though, and, you know, I think everyone contains the spoiler here, is nevertheless, they are going to have an extraordinary effect to start with, aren't they? Which begs the question, what would the Germans be capable of if they've actually been properly equipped and kitted out and able to go? Because operationally, you know, tactically, you know, they can be very effective. But it's a lack of contingency, though, isn't it? That's the problem. This is the really big alarm bells. It means you've got very little opportunity for the rotation of troops, which means inevitably they're that 10 % doing 80 % of the work.

38:58That is so going to be a problem. So there's this whopping overemphasis on the spearheads doing all the work. That is the issue. And the Red Army, just a reminder, have ready in the Western areas alone, have 32 ,900 artillery pieces and mortars over 50mm. and 76 ,500 guns and mortars below 50mm.

39:22Al Murray: Yeah. While the Germans can muster 7 ,146 artillery pieces in total for Barbarossa. So less than a fourth. I mean, the other thing is, and we'll see this actually in what we're going to talk about next, is that the German style of war, yes, it's super effective, but it's costly. It isn't a sort of casualty-free thing, Blitzkrieg. No, no. You carry on despite your losses is how Blitzkrieg works. Yeah, yeah. And the Luftwaffe is a really great example of this because they've been rushing around like the fire brigade, putting out problems everywhere they go. They've been trying to mutate into a strategic bombing force as well as from their actual tactical role.

40:00They've been in action constantly since the start of the war.

40:02Al Murray: Relentlessly. And actually, if there's one thing that's emblematic of the Nazi war machine, it's their tactical war effort. You know, the Stuka howling in and all that sort of thing. But they haven't got any four-engine bombers. So the thing they've tried to turn themselves into, a strategic bombing force, they can't do. And the Battle of Britain has been a catastrophe for them, you know, not just in terms of airframes, but they've chewed through all their experienced people, burned a load of people out. The lesson they've learned is not to enter the defended airspace if they could possibly help it.

40:27Al Murray: And the Blitz has similarly, although the Blitz has been this sort of extraordinary drama and unprecedented kind of war in England and the whole of the UK and even in Ireland where they end up in the wrong place, it's been really costly for the Luftwaffe. and it means they start Barbarossa with fewer aircraft than they began Falgelb on the 10th of May in 1940. Which is the invasion of low countries in France. Really bears thinking about. And the icing on the kind of disastrous cake is that they lose 250 of the much needed transports in Crete along with 50 % of their Falschmjäger force which are the best infantry in the Wehrmacht.

41:10Al Murray: That stage of the war, yeah. And, you know, get this. Between June 1940 to June 1941, the Luftwaffe loses 3 ,700 aircraft, as well as the same number of aircrew killed in action, 3 ,000 missing in action, and 1 ,500 wounded in action. And this is at a time before the war has gone on to kind of, you know, has reached gigantic scale. So this is where the conflict is actually still on a quite small level in terms of what is to come. And because of all the problems with trucks and transport and all that sort of stuff, their supply system is insufficient. They can't actually resupply. And they can go about 500 kilometres, so 300 miles.

41:57Al Murray: And after that, they run out of puff. They reach what's called the culmination point. Yes. And the culmination point, for those who don't understand it, this is military terminology. And what it means is the culmination is a point where you can no longer sustain your frontline action to the degree to which you want to and the speed of which you want to because your lines of supply are so great that you can't keep up. Yeah. Basically. So another word for it is you've run out of steam. The wheels are falling off literally and metaphorically. Yeah, yeah. But throughout June, it's, you know, the Germans are doing everything to let the Soviets know they're coming, right?

42:31Al Murray: The Luftwaffe are flying every day. There's intelligence pouring into Moscow from all sources. But it's also clear that the Red Army is, you know, girding its loins for something. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, 800 ,000 reservists. I mean, there's no small number to be sniffed at, is it? Soviet 16th Army and the 5th Mechanized Corps are loaded onto railways and go west from the eastern frontier. From the eastern frontier? Yeah, from the eastern frontier. So they know that Japanese assurances, the Japanese Soviet pact is in effect there and they can free people up. And they're due to arrive on the 10th to 17th of July.

43:08Al Murray: So the following month. They've also planned the 19th, the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd, the 24th and 28th armies. And six armies. Yeah. Concentrated the West between the 1st and 10th of July. and the soviets also trying to keep this secret so everyone's only for purposes secrecy the troops were to move only at night so something's afoot either side of the frontier yeah the sovi are up the soviets are primed to red army is going to strike into the southwest i mean you know there is some debate about this but i think that's what's going to happen i think they're planning a pre-emptive strike into the southwest they've moved all their aircraft up they've there you know it's going to be a drive into bulgaria and romania that's what they're going to do Just not yet.

43:50Well, July, probably end of July, beginning of August. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, the Germans are kind of sort of a month ahead, six weeks ahead. On the eve of battle, though, the Germans have mustered 152 divisions, 3 million men, 3 ,300 panzers, 2 ,250 warplanes, 7 ,146 mobile guns and artillery. It sounds enormous, that's because it is enormous, and it is unquestionably the biggest military clash and operation ever mounted in history. But in terms of hard numbers, it is as nothing to what the Red Army have, and it is very, very front-loaded. Now, we began this series with Richard von Rosen, who is a gefreiter in – he's a gunner, isn't he, in a Panzer Mark III.

44:44And I think it's only apt that we should finish with him on the eve of Barbarossa. Well, on Barbarossa itself, the 22nd of June 1941, which is when this great clash finally happened. So do you want to read Richard von Rosen? Why not?

45:02Al Murray: 22nd of June 1941. I had had a light dose. By O300 hours, on account of the tension and excitement, nobody was still asleep. We got up and talked. Then at precisely 0315 hours, the first rounds were fired. Our artillery batteries opened a crazy heavy fire from all sides on the Russian positions. Close by us was a 10.5cm battery. After a short while, the morning sky had turned red wherever one looked was on fire. The Soviets made no reply. After half an hour, the firing ebbed somewhat, got stronger again, and then almost ceased altogether. We could hear the rat-a-t-t-t of machine gun fire in the distance.

45:41Al Murray: our infantry crossed the bug and established the bridgehead towards 0400 hours the entire fighting force of the company was drawn up to here as a commanding the fuhrer's order of the day to the german army of the east the hour of the crucial test has now arrived for you too upon you lies the responsibility of saving the culture of europe from vortuism and we will be back with this in a couple of weeks yes barbara itself and then we'll be back with barbara osler itself and how is this all going to play out well who knows jim who knows um and the only way to find out uh uh sooner and to know exactly when we're going to tell you is to become a patreon to go to we have ways of making talks patreon become a member and join um other people who when they hear mention of a type 38 tank um under german use immediately squeak out the words that's a czech tank isn't it like i did earlier on anyway we will go to works so thanks for joining us and there's all sorts of stuff on there there's audio books there's um uh there's uh ticket offers all that sort of stuff merch um we've we i've really enjoyed this jim this has been absolutely fascinating and i think sean mcmiekin's book stalin's war which we quoted from at the start of this episode is one if people want to get more stuck into this and in fact then the the rest of the campaign and the strategic picture and then the extraordinary effective lend-lease on the Soviet Union.

47:06Al Murray: That's a book worth looking at, isn't it? And the other absolutely brilliant book on this is Barbarossa by David Starr, the Australian, who's coming over to We Have Ways Fest in September. And the other one I just mentioned is Absolute War by Chris Bellamy, which is extremely good as well. We Have Ways Fest, of course, is the 11th to the 13th of September at Black Pit Brewery. A whole weekend of people who shout out, it's from the Skoda Works, isn't it? Like we just demonstrated there. Go to wehavewaysfest.co.uk for your tickets. a whole weekend of wonderful war waffle. We will see you very soon.

47:38Al Murray: Thanks for listening, everybody. Cheerio. Cheerio.

47:48New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at the Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. Easily customize the twinkle across trees, wreaths and garlands to match your holiday vibe. Create stunning light effects, then switch it up with the tap of your fingers. Even the man in red will be impressed. Shop the holiday decor you want online only at homedepot.com. Mr. Monopoly here. Miss me? Monopoly is back at McDonald's with millions of prizes. A 2027 cheap charity. A Carnival Cruise vacation. Gift cards from DoorDash and Best Buy.

48:32He'll then play in the McDonald's app. Get your bag. No purchase necessary. 50 U.S. and D.C. age 18 plus. See play at mcd.com for rules and play at mcd.com slash AMOE for info and playing without purchase by mail by November 2nd. Chance card game ends November 8th. Game ends November 22nd, 2026. See rules for prize details. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro.

48:48Al Murray: The Viore Core Short moves with you. With everyday versatility and classic athletic fit. It's the one short for everything your day brings. Invest in your happiness and get 20 % off your first purchase at viore.com slash core20. That's V-U-O-R-I dot com slash K-O-R-E-2-0. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.