Operation Barbarossa: One Man's War (Part 7)

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1:33Al Murray: We heard at six that Germany, Romania and Finland are, as of today, at war with Russia. Some of us simply gave to the astonishment. Some took it with equanimity. Others are horrified. Personally, I think it's a good thing that we face the fight squarely and save our children from having to do it. For this reason, in the long run, it will have proved impossible for two such great nations lying right next to each other and with such completely different ways of life to exist side by side in peace and understanding. The fight between communism, which is rodding so many peoples, and national socialism was bound to come.

2:10Al Murray: And the Fuhrer will know what he's doing. Above all, I'm sure it'll end well. That is Unteroffizier Wilhelm Prüller writing in his diary on the 22nd of June 1941. A fateful day. So welcome to We Have Ways to Make You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland and our Barbarossa series. And this is episode seven of this series, A One Man's War. And what we thought we'd do is zoom away from the big picture that we've been offering you in the last six episodes. the chaps on maps, the giant arrows, groping deeper into the Russian-Soviet heartland, and look at what it's like being one fellow in the middle of this incredibly dramatic story.

2:55So Wilhelm Brunner, spoiler alert, did survive the war and had written this diary for his wife, Henny. So rather than, I mean, he did write letters to her as well, but he kept a diary as a sort of daily record of what was going on. And by the way, we're recording this in the middle of the heat wave. And in my newly insulated office in my barn, there is no breeze, no air conditioning, and I am broilingly hot. So if I'm dabbing my bra, please, please forgive me. But that's good because what we really want to do is get a feeling what it was like in the Soviet steppe in the summer of 1941.

3:30Al Murray: Yes, just be grateful you're not in a Panzer III, with the steel warming up and basically cooking you gently as you proceed across the steppe. I'm always thankful for the lack of Panzer 3s. But Prüller handed over his diary, which he'd kept and which survived with him in the war. He lost it a couple of times, recovered it a couple of times. In the late 1950s, by which time he was still wedded to the cause and unapologetic, but also an alcoholic, traumatized by his experience during the war and by what had happened to Germany. And it's an incredibly moving story because, you know, at the time of the invasion, he's the 1A, which is the general staff officer of the 2nd Battalion of the 11th Schutz Regiment, which is the Rifle Regiment, which is part of the 9th Panzer Division.

4:26and nine panzer is part of the 14 motorized corps under general gustav anton von vitersheim and part of army group south heading into ukraine and vitersheim incidentally it also had a motorized corps during the blitzkrieg in the you know the invasion of france in the low country as part of army group a that was coming through the ardennes and they were the motorized corps that were following up behind reinhardt and hurt and um guderian so he's still got a motorized corps because they don't have enough panzer divisions. So they do have panzers, but they're mainly just a mechanized armored force.

5:00They are also part of Panzer Group 1, which is the only panzer force in Army Group South and the only bona fide panzer division, that is the 9th Panzer Division, which is in that group. And joining them in 14 Corps are the 1st SS Division, Leipstandarte Adolf Hitler, and the 5th SS Division, Viking. So these are both Waffen SS divisions, so they're incredibly well equipped. But they're not panzer divisions, they're not particularly well trained, I think it's fair to say. You know, they're first and foremost motorised infantry rather than panzer. And so it really, I think, underlines just how few tanks really are for Barbarossa.

5:44I mean, the bulk, as we've already seen in this series, are with Army Group Center rather than Army Group South or Army Group North. But a bit on Wilhelm Prüller. So he's an Austrian. He's born in Vienna on the 14th of January 1916. His background is working class. His father's a typesetter who then has to give up his job because of lead poisoning and become a casual laborer. I mean, you know, these are the kind of sort of health and safety issues that we just don't have to deal with today, obviously. Yeah. The family's Catholic, reasonably devout. Prudler joins the Hitler youth, aged 11, and by 17 is a member of the Nazi party in Austria, and then becomes a member of the SS.

6:25You know, for him, the Nazis are very much offering a renewal of pride and identity. But of course, also, it's equal opportunities in the Nazis. So, you know, this gives you an opportunity to rise up from your working class roots. you know there's nothing if not equal opportunities for those who kind of buy into the into the nazi and get into the nazi way i mean that's the truth of it and also because they're banned in austria

6:50Al Murray: if you're really into it you're going to be more into it aren't you is the thing i think that's one of the notable things about austrian nazis is that because because there's an attempt to put put keep the lid on it these people are further radicalized so he emigrates to germany you know he follows his he follows his nazi star as it were to to munich follows the drone yeah to munich exactly yeah um and only returns to austria but where else are you gonna go well yeah you're gonna go you're gonna go exactly you're gonna go to the source aren't you in munich but and he returns to austria after the anschluss you know there's so many people like this aren't there and he does feel he does feel very much on the on this course doesn't he um right from right from when he's a child it's extraordinary really and then he's a district manager for kraft der freude which is a state-run leisure organization with uh 350 reichmarks a month yeah it's an outside lido it's kind of you know an artistic center the sports there's hiking there's all that kind of stuff he's got a little office he's swanning around you know he's getting 350 reichmarks a month which is a lot more than most people and he's getting a chauffeur driven car at his disposal he's clearly feeling the main man isn't he yeah you know he's puffed up he's got his nazi kit on he's got his black uniform and his boots and what have you and and and now he's got a bit of money in his back pocket and a chauffeur driven car and he can he can marry his childhood sweet hot but then which i think is really really weird he's then drafted into the wehrmacht on the 1st december 1938 despite being in the uh in in the ss so he doesn't go into the waffen ss or remain in the algemeine ss and and why it's it's he doesn't mention this in his diary doesn't doesn't say it he serves in Poland and France and the Balkans by which time he's an NCO yes he is a dedicated Nazi but but that's the tenor in which Barbarossa is being prosecuted isn't it is the it's the the truth and with that of course he's vehemently anti-communist because you know in the in the cocktail of Nazism anti-communism is a very very strong ingredient isn't it he's going for that thing that that yes they're saving Europe they're saving Europe and in fact the world from being overrun by communism which also means Jews um it's the thing to it's the thing to remember But in Nazism, when people say one thing, they mean everything all at once, don't they?

8:56Al Murray: It's the truth, you know. And he doesn't like the Versailles Treaty because he's Austrian, doesn't like what happened to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, blah, blah, blah. And he says, It is no longer a fight of the Reich against its old enemies, but a war of Weltallschungen, a war of truth against untruth, a war between Teutons and the Jews. Thus the Teutons of this, the most respected continent on earth, engaged in a war to the death with plutocracy, allied with the murderers of the East. It's amazing, isn't it? How, you know, he's a young, impressionable man. It's just incredible how completely he is swallowing the Nazi line and the Nazi propaganda.

9:36He is all in on this. And he clearly profoundly believes it. You know, he thinks it's good. And the amazing thing about him is his diary is full of sort of really horrible lines, but it's also full of, you know, shows him to be a tender fellow. You know, he has his friendships. He has his wife, who he clearly adores. You know, he's a doting father. You know, he's not an entirely bad man. But his head has been turned by this horrible ideology, which, you know, obviously today we find extremely disturbing. But this is what makes it so fascinating, I think, reading and following these people, because they are fundamentally the same people.

10:17It's just – and their response to the situations in which they find themselves, certainly in terms of combat and stuff, is not entirely incompatible with pretty much anyone else who's seeing service. You know, he's clearly a dedicated, loyal, and courageous soldier. You know, and his writings for someone who's been brought up working class is incredibly articulate. You know, his observations are incredibly acute. And as I say, he seems quite likable until he starts, you know, out comes the bile.

10:46Al Murray: Yeah, it's the power of ideology, isn't it? It's the interesting thing, isn't it? But we're not even on sort of banality of evil territory here, are we? Because I often think people resort to that so they don't have to explain what's going on here. And it just shows, it shows actually how powerful ideology is and how you can be a guy who loves his kids, but also desperately want to murder Jewish people or whatever, you know, or Russians or whoever, yeah, or communists, which of course covers all. So, I mean, at the time of the invasion for the launch of Barbarossa, 9th Panzer Division is in Upper Silesia, which is southeast of Warsaw.

11:28Al Murray: So in the northern grouping of Army Group Centre. And they set off towards the border in a column, in a motorist column. Yes, because just to remind everyone, because Army Group Centre is being divided into two. It's got this huge frontage. And the northern grouping, which is the main grouping, is the main thrust. And then the southern grouping is more of a defensive one, which also had the Romanians, if you remember. And that is really more just to stop the Red Army bursting through and going the other direction, basically. So he's in this northern group. He's in the thrusting, surging group.

11:58Al Murray: Yeah, they're mechanised infantry is the thing to remember. So in Zenzotsov and in other larger towns too, the Jews are herded together in a particular part of the town, like our former Judengas in Vienna. When they go out, they, man or woman, have to wear a white armband with a blue star of Zion on it. that's the way it should be for the whole world so straight away um uh they're at it it's amazing he says looking down from the truck he's in the people seem very depressed i mean well that's not that's no surprise no shit sherlock they're walking with heads down huge queues for bread and milk and by 1 45 in the afternoon they reach denver near the border and camp in woods there's no drinking water it's just a slimy pond and no new maps are issued.

12:43Al Murray: So they're all a bit disheartened because they think they're getting going and then there's no new maps. So it can't be. Then late in the evening, they get 10 enormous parcels of maps of Russia, of the Soviet Union. So what a job. Oh, well, I didn't get any sleep last night. I might as well stay up tonight too. So basically, because he's a staff officer, here comes the planning, basically. And he's got to get to work. Yeah, so he's the 1A. So he's like the sort of number one death squatter, really. Although it has to be said that in a Schutz regiment, in a motorized rifle regiment like this, this is not like being a staff officer in the US Army or the British Army where you're kind of, to a certain extent, sort of sat behind with your spectacles, you know, behind a typewriter.

13:27No, no, no. This guy is in the front line all the time because absolutely built into these better units, these better divisions in the Panzer divisions, like the 9th Panzer Division, is the idea that all the officers have to lead from the front. This is why they have such particularly catastrophic losses in their officers, because they are all doing what they've been trained to do, which is charge into the guns. And so, as we will discover, he's going to get plenty of action in the days and weeks to come. But anyway, three days in to the campaign, they're still waiting for their marching orders.

14:03And again, I think this speaks volumes of the scale of this, the lack of roads, the gridlock, which frankly is being repeated from Case Yellow, from the invasion of the Low Countries. I mean, this is like von Wietersheim's motorized core in the Ardennes, where they were back of the bus and they were having all manner of gridlock. And this is exactly what is happening here. And, you know, And Brula, for one, is not happy. It's boring. There's nothing to do. And he wants to be part of the great victory. They're all absolutely imbued with confidence and that this is all going to turn out brilliantly.

14:43The early reports suggest that they're overrunning everything. The enemy are fleeing. And they don't want to miss out. And there's nothing to do and there's nothing to buy because there's no bread. There's no wine. They haven't got any money. There's no cigarettes in this part of eastern Poland because it's completely impoverished by the kind of horrendous last 30 years in which they've tried to exist. And, of course, because they've been overrun by Germany and then the Soviet Union in Poland, they do get some cigarettes, but only by trading them for eggs. You know, and there's a sort of tone of resentment here, but, of course, it's hardly the Pole's fault.

15:19I mean, that's occupation for you, right?

15:20Al Murray: Yeah, well, particularly by the Germans. So it's not until 1800 hours on the 27th of June, which is a Friday, they're told to be ready. And they finally move out at 2100 hours. And I mean, I love this. He's annoyed because Minsk has already been taken and a thousand Soviet planes have been destroyed. So he feels basically he wants a piece of the action, doesn't he? And he's feeling frustrated that they aren't in on the kill. That's about a quarter of all their workable machines. Isn't it natural that we can barely wait to go on into action? After all, we want to accomplish something big in this, our greatest and most important fight.

16:01Al Murray: So rather than thinking, well, thank goodness I haven't been shot at yet. He's full of, you know, what Monty would call binge, isn't he? Yes, big time. And inevitably, obviously, they set off late because you always set off late. No one leaves on time. and they're marching through the villages. No one does ever. No one ever lives on time. No one's ever left their start line on time. And they march through villages that have been smashed up by the fighting from 1939. And he says, as we went through Bilgoi, the only thing you could say was that used to be Bilgoi. It's quite droll, isn't it? I mean, that's quite a good line.

16:38Al Murray: Yeah, it's good enough, but it's also like, well, who did that? It's a great mystery, isn't there? Often in this stuff. Well, that would have been the Soviet Union. Places need saving for the Soviet Union because they've been smashed up by it. Hmm. Anyway. Yeah, so they're still driving towards the border on Sunday, the 29th of June. And that's when the news reaches them of yet more successes. 40 ,000 POWs, they hear. 4 ,107 enemy planes, all getting very precise. 600 artillery pieces have been captured. You know, and they're just clearly giddy with the excitement of it all. And then finally, at 9.30 p.m., they cross the border into what had been Ukraine.

17:17And they come across border defences and not least an impressive anti-tank ditch. Then several burned out villages. Miserable looking prisoners of war, Red Army prisoners of war march past and progress is slow. He says, you know, we are going at the meet of a time. The roads are awful. The congestion, terrible. Rather rusker, they're ordered to halt for the night. And it's 3 a.m. by the time Prula gets his head down. And it's just, you know, it's clear it's not at all how he imagined this was going to be. And then Monday, the 30th of June, he's up again at 5.45 a.m. And I think one of the things that's, you know, so that's less than three hours later.

17:58And I think one of the things that really comes across in this is we touched in the last episode, I think, we were talking about the immense strain these men are being put under and how much is being expected. You know, they're just round the clock. And here you see this firsthand. I mean, you just can't keep this up at this pace physically. There isn't Pervitin tablets being handed out willy-nilly by this stage. Yeah.

18:22Al Murray: He says the road is the worst imaginable. deep sand and then huge craters right across the whole road and this mile after mile. So the poor quality of the Soviet roads is also a further embuggerance, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it sounds very like the roads in southwest Wiltshire. He says his eyes ache from looking at so many vehicles, one after the other, for as far as you can see. And they reach the town of Busk in the afternoon and Russians are being hauled out of houses. Disgusting creatures, he calls them. I mean, this is awful, isn't it? Because these are impoverished peasants who the Germans have turned out and they're like hauling people out of their homes.

19:02And all he can call them is disgusting creatures. He is utterly revolted by their poverty and appalled by their poverty. And so, you know, he is looking at them in the same way that a medieval knight would look upon a kind of, you know, a medieval serf. You know, as absolute undermentioned, these are the lowest of the low, that they're so backward that they're not really deserving of being compared in the same sentence as human beings. I mean, that is how he sees it.

19:31Al Murray: Yes. And there's some Soviet troops are surrendering, including one of them who's a woman who's wounded. And Prula can't get his head around this because she's not a nurse. She's a soldier. You know, she's not a house frow. What's going on? Why isn't she at home looking after Zikinda? And also there are Ukrainians who are showering them with flowers and their triumphal arches at the entrance of the villages with signs in Russian and German saying, Ukrainian people stank their liberators, the brave German army, Heil Adolf Hitler. So he's encountering lots of things all at once here, isn't he? like how squalid and poor parts of the Soviet Union are.

20:05Al Murray: The Red Army is using women to fight. So that's another thing from an alien culture, isn't it? How low can this be? And then Ukrainians, I mean, you know, hedging their bets as much as anything else by welcoming them on their arrival. You know, he's having his worldview proved to him, isn't he, by some of this. But he's also completely shocked by what he sees. I mean, this is about as far removed as cosmopolitan, sophisticated Vienna as you could ever expect. And, you know, it is, I don't know, it's like sort of Captain Cook arriving on an island in the Pacific or something. You know, he just cannot get his head around this sort of huge difference in standard of living and way of life.

20:52He's up against early the next day, isn't he?

20:55Al Murray: Yes, out of the sack at 2 a.m. Really, the saying no rest for the very applies to us. So and they actually go into action that day. So, you know, he's been careful what you wish for. He's going to get it. Proulé marvels at the sight of 40 panzers moving up. The infantry step off at 7.30 in the morning. Anti-tank guns are in position, which gives them a lot of confidence. Then the infantry dismount and they follow as the tanks crash through and they burst through the front line of Soviet defences. at the second line, they meet enemy tanks, but they're not anything to worry about. And he says, the Russians aren't up to our anti-tank guns, nor to our tanks.

21:31Al Murray: Then we move up later, the road and ditches are jammed full of knocked out enemy tanks. So it's gone, that first encounter has gone well. Absolutely on the note, exactly as he'd predicted, as their confidence suggested it would, and all the rest of it. You know, and it's absolutely clear that at this stage, you know, here we are, the very beginning of July, 1941, there's absolutely nothing that can dent his confidence or his profound and deep-rooted belief in German military superiority. But the shock of what he sees, and this is a man he's seen plenty of action already. I mean, you know, he's just hot-footed it from the Balkans, for example.

22:06Well, you know, he was in Greece in April, and here he is in June at the Soviet Union. And he says, you know, of these sites...

22:14Al Murray: There are hideous sites inside of the tanks. One man without a head, another sliced in two. the brains plastered over the walls, revolting. So the viscera of war is getting to him. But they press on. They reach their third target using firepower and tactical air support. And he sees one enemy tank on fire ram into a house, destroying it and eventually halting in the middle of a second house. So he's getting the action he wants. And they advance on towards Sassov. and enemy tanks appear from all sides, but these are knocked out as well. And then later that day, Prüle is ordered to head back to the rear and bring up the reserves, which must be because their own casualties are mounting and it's time to take the pressure off the forward companies.

23:01Yes, so he has quite the escapade because he beetles off in his Kubelwagen at 80 kilometres per hour. So what's that, 50 miles an hour. So beetling along and by a little village, there's a small road which is joining his road from the left and he sees a Russian tank coming down towards it. And he just thinks, oh my God, I'm absolutely stuffed. You know, they're converging. And he's got no hand grenades. He's got no rifle, no nothing. He hasn't got an MP40 or anything. And if the tank sees them, he's toast. So he's got this split second to make his mind up about what to do. And so he just goes straight off the road into the ditch, rolling the car and flinging them out.

23:40So they're flat on their faces in the cool grass. But he and the guy he's with are okay. Ever so slowly, ever so gingerly, he raises his herd and sees the tank, but it just rumbles on straight past them without seeing them. He can't get the vehicle back on the road, but he can see seven companies' lorries at the far end of the village, which is where he's trying to get to. So he thinks there's nothing for them. He's going to have to dash across this field. But no sooner have they started running than another tank is heading straight for them. So shots are fired and crash into the seven company trucks.

24:14Al Murray: He says, dreadful roar now, stumbling, crawling, we move on, far too slowly for me. But they do reach the company lines. They get there. Clearly, there's utter chaos there because they've just come under fire. But an anti-tank gun has hastily moved into positions and turns on the two Russian tanks and opens fire. And the tanks then very, very quickly pull back and out of the way. So having delivered his message for the men, he's given a motorcycle and a sidecar. And together they head back again, you know, overtaking transport, driving up the line. Then after a kilometre, bullets start singing past his head.

24:53But he does manage to make it back and reports that his mission is accomplished.

24:56Al Murray: Now learn that we almost suffered a bad defeat. The eighth company penetrated the woods in front of us, about 100 metres, and received terrible infantry fire. Partly from sharpshooters in the trees and partly from marvellously camouflaged machine guns. the company lost 80 men the chief is badly wounded those who got back told the most revolting stories you could possibly imagined the wounded kameraden were worked over by the russians with their gun barrels until they were dead many people saw this only the russians can be that bestial that's what they are anyway beasts no other soldier in the whole wide world could act like such beasts he's had his fill for the day hasn't he you know this is my point he may be 1a but he's not out of the action.

25:35And anyway, they attack again that evening, the wood they're assaulting, which eight company has been assaulting, which has had all these terrible casualties. It's a massive tracer and explosions as their artillery opens up. I mean, and he just thinks no one can possibly survive. And although he's a company 1A, he still has to join in leading seven companies attack with the company commander. Because as we were talking earlier on, his CEO is imbued with that spirit that you've got to leave from the front. But obviously attacking woods, even if it's following an artillery barrage at dusk is about as bad as it gets because you can't see very far and you don't know what's coming.

26:15And the airbus cause splinters to the wood, which can be deadly. And suddenly it's dark and suddenly it's quiet and Proulos senses the enemies withdrawn. There's a few occasional rifle cracks ring out and then they discover some Russians in a ditch.

26:34Al Murray: At once, we hurl hand, go and eat that soon and they disappear. They cleared the woods and then they get back into their vehicles and then orders come to move on at 5.30 in the morning onwards to Tornopol. So it's relentless, isn't it? It's completely relentless. Yeah, so just to go back to the start of this day, he's out of the sack at 2am. Yeah. So what's this? This is now after midnight and then they're up again at 5.30. I mean, how long can you keep this going? I mean, it's crazy how much they're expecting of these guys, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It is. So Wednesday, the 2nd of July, 1941, onwards to Tornepal.

27:17Their own artillery is already fixed in the hills around the town. And Pruler stands behind a house at the edge of the town with the CEO and his aide-de-camp. And they watch there's a gunfire and rains down, the shells hurtling in and explosions and so on. And he writes a great little sequence here.

27:33Al Murray: You simply cannot imagine, Henny, what the concentrated fire of a reinforced motor battalion means. You think the world's at an end. The thunder and roar of guns, the shots bursting as they land, the trails of traces from the fleck, the burning houses in the town increased by the traces of our artillery. It's frightful and beautiful. It would be quite understandable if the Russians in Tarnopol went out of their minds today. That's very good, isn't it? Yeah, it is good. So they enter the town and the CO is just standing up in his Kubelwagen. urging the men on. And Proulos sits beside him with his carbine on his lap.

28:06They fire a few rounds into the attics, but the noise is so great, it's hard to know if anyone's firing at them, because you can just imagine it, can't you? You're going down this narrow street, you've got this rumble of kuba wagons and trucks and artillery and panzers and so on. They then halt at the centre of town, and Sixth Company passed through them, because they're Seven Company, combing the streets and then they follow and set off again so it's like this sort of leapfrogging through through the town um and the next stop is is the bridge on the on the far side and they attract enemy fire and then realize it's coming from the railway line so a soviet armored train with 40 tanks loaded on it is about to depart i mean it's come in as part of you remember there was all those you know they're moving up all that that machinery and material for their own invasion which is due to start on the 25th of July.

28:55And this is part of that. But they're now hastily beetling backwards again. And two self-propelled guns move forward and start firing at it. And they just go methodically down the line, shooting at each loading tank until the entire train is shot to pieces and burning. I mean, we've kind of seen that scene in movies, haven't we? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can just picture it. Yeah.

29:19Al Murray: Then the men rush across the bridge one by one. the overtake at 100 kph temple. Stupartis is on the bridge firing his machine pistol and a Russian two meters off gets blank in the stomach and kills Stupartis. Both of them were with me all doing my time as a recruit. It's always the best fun to get it. So this is bitter fighting, isn't it? For all the advancing and all the sort of massive leaps forward. It's costly, isn't it? We've told that story in the large of Barbarossa, but here it is in the intimate, isn't it? that no matter how fast they go, they're wearing themselves out and they're attritting and they clear the town, but then they're shelled in turn and Proulx lies flat and hopes for the best.

29:59Al Murray: He says, what do you think about at such a moment? As far as my orders allow me, I think of everything, of you as a children, home of our parents, a future, my profession. Everything spins around in your head at once till all I think of is this, if only I come through it alive. And then it starts to rain and he hates the rain. And that's a very, I think that's a very human and natural response, isn't it, to this situation. You know, it's really noticeable that there's a tone shift here, the kind of overexcited kind of I-just-want-to-get-at-the-enemy kind of chat. That's been kicked into the long grass.

30:36This is the awful reality. Because for all the fighting he's seen in France, for all the fighting he's seen in the Balkans, this is on a different scale already.

30:44Al Murray: It's war without end is what it is. because there doesn't seem to be a moment where the Soviets are going to topple. It's, you know, with France, by now, you know, at least a week into it, the direction of travel was evident, wasn't it? Whereas this seems to be an unending thing. You know, the ideology can get you so far, can fuel you up and paper over the cracks. But when it encounters reality, it's no substitute for thinking about your children and your home and your parents. He's not lying flat thinking, well, at least this means that we're going to save Europe from Bolshevism. He's not thinking that, is he?

31:17Al Murray: That bromide doesn't work. We'll take a break here and then we'll come back. Yes. We'll come back with more of Prüla and as July rolls out ahead of him. See you in a tick.

31:36We are getting a statement from number 10 on that flight with 350 passengers on board. The great game.

31:47Al Murray: The strategic struggle between Britain and Russia. We assess our Prime Minister. With high confidence it was Russian. Holding the Russians accountable is World War III. They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people. The man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. You've got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing! We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. Disseminated into an operation order, or Frago. A Frago that says to kill the president of Russia. Yes. New from Gaulhanger.

32:37Al Murray: Who is going to be able to pull this off? You're my soldier, are you? Sergeant Tom McDuff! Duffy! An audio drama journey like no other. Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. We have two times friendly key. Where Britain plays its strongest hand. He's the best. Against its strongest foe. Don't do it, Duffy! Bear Hunt. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

33:21Al Murray: Welcome back to We Have Ways To Make You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, and episode seven of our Bob Russell series, One Man's War. And we're looking at Unteroffizier Wilhelm Prüller. He started to rain. And one of the things I think is interesting is that when we think of the Soviet campaign, I think we just think of it sort of relentlessly baking hot summer and dust. and we think of the rain coming in the autumn and then you think of the kind of snow and the freezing conditions, you know, later on in the year, but you don't really associate these opening stages with rain, but it's amazing how much it is raining at this time.

33:56And we're only on, by the way, the 3rd of July, 1941, not even two weeks into the campaign at this stage.

34:03Al Murray: Yes, 10 days, 11 days, yeah. Pruller is full of admiration for the company commander, you know, and his ability to, and willingness to lead from the front. And he's also convinced it makes them win more quickly. He believes they're more tactically agile. But obviously, it's incredibly dangerous. And the loss of officers, particularly, is already really bad. And this goes back to your point you were making earlier on, which is, yes, they're winning, but they're being attrited all the time. They're taking on casualties all the time. And they're experiencing exactly what the spearheads are experiencing in Army Group Centre.

34:38this is an advance of roads rather than of vast swathes of territory and it's really important to make that distinction because these roll barns as they call them these routes that have been mapped out these roads that's your only means of going from a to b you can't just drive a truck or or uh you know across a marsh or across an open field you know you have to use these roads but But such is the vastness of the distances that you can't also just fan out and secure all the territory. So you've got these little fingers. It's like a sort of exaggerated 30-core before Arnhem. You know, you've got this finger deep into enemy territory.

35:18And it's not really cutting it, is the truth.

35:22Al Murray: Well, and the roads are no good. He says the whole war takes place more or less on the road. Without securing the landline to the left or right of the road, we move along and reach the appointed goals. how many russians must be cruising around the country still well there it is jim if he can spot it why can't okh and okw right because they're miles behind yeah because they're looking at maps and they're looking at what they've done in the past and they're thinking of france and the balkans and you know and it's just it's just different and because they've hubristically not counted enough into or not factored enough into their plans the vast expanse of this territory and this landscape and its very, very primitive infrastructure and how difficult it is to actually take territory.

36:05Anyway, they push on ever, ever onwards. And the next time is Kamyonka. And here they surprise the Red Army cavalry, which gets shot up by their flak guns. You know, it's complete carnage. And again, you know, he's horrified by what he sees.

36:20Al Murray: Horses and men lying about in vile disorder. You can see one of the Russians trying to raise himself up and then his strength ebbs away and he collapses like a sack. It's frightful. And some enemy tanks are spotted up ahead and someone yells out for the pack, the anti-tank guns, to come forward. Pruler grabs a motorcycle and tears to the rear like a fire engine to bring up the anti-tank guns. And then the column, made worse by blackened and knocked out enemy vehicles, hinders the speed, of course. So he's having to dodge and weave and all the rest of it and go through potholes and pass knocked out vehicles and tanks and so on.

36:56And by the time he eventually gets back to the regimental headquarters, the enemy tanks have gone. And actually the pack, the anti-Aid tank guns are no longer needed. And when he gets back, he hears what's happened. And apparently the tank just drives straight on past them with troops on top, including women soldiers. I mean, we've constantly, throughout the war, you hear this is where someone's just wound up in the wrong position and they just think, oh my God, what am I going to do? They just carry on. The Russian tank commander shot their own ordnance officer with a pistol before the entire tank was inevitably then destroyed.

37:29And Prula goes past the wreckage a little bit later.

37:33Al Murray: It was completely burned out. Some of the women, completely nude and roasted, were lying beside the tank. Awful. All along the whole road of approach, you see, Russians would be mashed up by our lorries or tanks. If you look at one of them, you can't believe that it was ever a human being. An arm there, a head there, half a foot somewhere else, squashed brains, mashed ribs. Horrible. You know, it's roadkill, right? And then it starts raining again. And quickly, the road turns to mud. And I just want to point out that that is Thursday, the 3rd of July that he's talking about. You know, so we're two weeks in.

38:09That's it. So then it's Friday the 4th of July and they find a house to shelter in, but it's squalid and stinks and Pula can't bring himself to enter because it's just so horrible and impoverished and ghastly. And they pause for the day and then move off at 7pm. And he's managed to fill his canteen with some alcohol, which he prefers to water tea or coffee. Righto. Because? It quenches the thirst better, Jim. Or does it just dull the horror a little bit? I would suggest perhaps the latter. They stop at another town and the company headquarters is set up in a large house and there's rumours of Russian atrocities are rife.

38:44Al Murray: Yeah. And not only do we harm not a hair of a Russian's head, but our stupid men are so soft hearted that they turn around the next minute and give these criminal riffraff cigarettes. It's not people we're fighting against here, but simply animals. So he's managed to gee up his ideology again there. The men are seeing the Russians as people, perhaps, but the officers are... Prüller himself has managed to sort of... He's managed to grab hold of his Nazism with both hands there. He's also struck by how many, what he calls, Asiatic faces there are among the dead. Dead women in uniform as well, which must have really been mind-blowing.

39:17He's obsessed by this.

39:18Al Murray: Yeah, these criminals stop at absolutely nothing. I mean, this is... Are we the bad guys? Mitchell and Webb stuff, isn't it, really? Are we the baddies? These criminals stop at absolutely nothing. I mean, again, this is just, you know, he's right on the money, isn't he, on the nose of Nazi ideology there. I mean, and you can see him, can't you? You can picture him taking this all in, horrified by the violence and carnage of it all and all it's seeing and convincing himself that the people they're up against are not normal human beings. They're not equal human beings like them. They are subspecies that, frankly, the world is better off without.

39:57And that is helping him to justify the kind of awfulness of what he's seeing, I think. I think that that's what's going through. Do you think that's fair?

40:04Al Murray: Yeah, I do. And I think the fact that at the moment the Germans are winning is also underlining that they're the master race here, that the people they're fighting are lower creatures because they're winning, because they're winning apparently so sort of relentlessly. I think it's interesting because it comes and goes, doesn't it? When he was when he was when he was in danger, he wasn't thinking, ha ha, you know, we're we're overpowering our racial inferiors. He was thinking about his wife and his children. So it comes around and goes around, doesn't it? How ideologically is. So they set up a regimental battle headquarters in a Red Army military hospital and they find 10 dead Russians in one room.

40:36Al Murray: Then they get news that they're going to be relieved by the SS. And he thinks, you know, a rest would be nice. But then again, we've only just been going. We've only been going a couple of weeks. And because the hospital stinks, he decides to sleep outside and wishes for just one night where he could get a decent night's sleep. I mean, that's the eternal story of the soldier, though, isn't it? The Infantia. By two o 'clock in the morning, he finally gets his head down, and then he's up again at six. And after so many nights like that, it's not enough, is it? It's not enough. And they are just expecting too much of these guys.

41:10And off they go again, and the relentless march forward continues. And this time, it's to prosecute you off. And just put yourself in his shoes and just think how far you've already come You know, from your start point in Upper Silesia in southeast Poland to here. And you just think, oh, my God, you know, how far are we? You know, we're so far in here. And yet ahead of you is, you know, effectively infinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

41:36Al Murray: I know, it's just completely relentless. Yes, they're advancing into the void, essentially. The advance goes very slowly. Numerous obstacles keep slowing down our charge. You can't really call that Verona Road. It's better than this in the tiniest hamlet in Germany. And we're marching on a main road. The road's muddy because, as you said, Jim, there's been some rain. And it's bad enough to sink up to the knees. But in the middle of the road, there's also dust. On the shoulders, on the edges. Every vehicle is just covered by this impenetrable cloud of dust. Again, you can manage it. You just imagine it.

42:07I mean, these are roads which are designed for once in a blue moon, a small car. You know, think of Model T or something. I mean, but a Soviet version. but horse and car, but mules and horse-drawn vehicles. Suddenly, you've got thousands of vehicles. And just think of the dust cloud, and then think of the mud when it starts raining and how the churn of those wheels on those roads. And then you think of battle damage, shell holes and what have you, and you think of old just potholes that haven't been cleared up and repaired. And suddenly you're getting a fairly clear picture of the conditions in which they're operating.

42:50And they push forward under a protection umbrella of machine guns and mortars. And when they discover enemy foxholes, everyone just shouts and then hurls grenades. And mostly the Russians try and flee. But as they do so, they're just cut down. Anyway, here we are finally on Monday, the 7th of July, where they're about to launch a big attack on the Stalin line south. and this kicks off again really early 5 30 in the morning two infantry companies with the 33rd armoured regiment in support and the enemy are dug in ahead of them the ground is muddy from yet more rain and slowly the panzers swing into position everyone's in a fever of excitement

43:30Al Murray: the way we always are before an attack our cheeks glowing our eyes sparkling our hearts beating faster and our thoughts concentrated on one thing to get them to destroy them and then suddenly he remembers that it's his daughter's birthday. So he has to push these thoughts aside. No matter how G'd up you are for destroying the Russians, if it's your daughter's birthday, you know, what are you going to do? 140 panzers move off at quarter past five that morning. The Russians will soon be ready to shit, Prüder writes. But his kubovar gets stuck in the mud and he's brought dispatch riders with him for that exact contingency.

44:07Al Murray: And they crawl into a cornfield with the company pennant aloft. And suddenly it's like, pew, pew, pew, you know, a zip of bullets going across the dock. Because, of course, you know, that attracts enemy snipers and shooters and so on. But they have to do this because it's a guide to the following companies. And Perula gets his orders to move and weave through the woods. So he's got his MP40s at the ready, you know, 40 at the ready, his machine pistol and ready. And they head up a hill and they get fired on and bullets are whistling over their heads. And Poudreau can't see how they're ever going to reach the top, but, you know, all of their orders.

44:45And he says... We must go up. We must throw the Russians out. So they crawl forward. And in time, some panzers come forward to help. And then they, the infantry, follow up behind. And this is great because the tanks are giving them the protection that they need. And this does the trick. And they blast the positions and then allow the infantry to get so close that they can lob grenades. and then the panzers go over the foxholes and the trenches of the Russians and grind their tracks over the trenches. But it still doesn't kill all the Red Army troops, even though Prüller thinks they'd have been turned into soup, as he writes it.

45:22And instead, they're still firing and throwing grenades. And at this point, Leutnant Kleiner Haselbruch drops next to him, shot in the belly. And Leutnant Zern stays with him until he dies, you know, cradling his dying friend in his arms. and now they're creeping up to each foxhole, hurling grenades and then finishing off with pistols and rifles because this is deeply close-quarter stuff. Some enemy put their hands up, but the Germans are not in the mood for mercy, so they just cut them down. This is largely because one Russian shot a comrade having surrendered, so they're not going to follow Follow that trick again.

46:01They clear the hill and count 135 dead Russians. They've lost just 11 men. Pruler is walking between Zern and Leutnant Kuhn, who are both hit. Kuhn with a stream of blood gushing from his mouth. Zern with a splinter in the arm. But Pruler, miraculously, is completely untouched. Good God.

46:22Al Murray: Gosh. And then not long after that, a second wave of shelling begins and he flings himself into the mud in a ditch and feels himself lifted up and slammed back again by the concussions. I veid a few seconds, then I feel all my bones from head to foot, which a French soldier wouldn't have. And when I see that nothing hurts and don't feel any warm trickles anywhere, I take off like a shot. I jump and run as fast as my legs will carry me to battle headquarters. Later that afternoon, they resume the attack at about half past four, 1630. And they've won the day. It's a success. While we're cleaning up the cornfield, we find some Russians still there who won't give up.

46:57Al Murray: There's no way out but to mow them down. It's brutal. It is absolutely brutal. And the officers, as you pointed out, the officers are really, I mean, we've seen there, the officers are taking on the chin, aren't they, for this campaign. All these friends being killed around them. But remember, you know, Nine Panzer is the only Panzer division in this corps. I mean, you know, that is it. There's hardly any. So we're only up to Tuesday the 8th of July 1941. I mean, you know, this is not yet three weeks. And all night they're in the open. And then at 8 a.m. they march off to Proskodov, a larger town than those they've overrun so far.

47:35And they're there for a few days. And then on Friday, the 11th of July, seeds of stout are starting to creep in.

47:43Al Murray: When I see, even at this time of year, how our vehicles are, after it's rained a little, can barely make the grade, I just can't imagine how it would be in autumn when the rainy period really settles in. We're fighting a solid mass of dirt outwardly and inwardly. inwardly you know as i say those doubts are starting to creep in they're starting to realize that perhaps they've bitten off a little bit more than they can chew anyway they advance again and this time on the on the first asphalted road which is a cause for a huge celebration although it then stops after 35 kilometers so what's that that's not quite that's like 19 miles isn't it they reach a village in the early hours sudelkov and he sleeps upright in his kubelwagen as he as he often does these days.

48:26And then Saturday, the 12th of July, 1941, it's a gorgeous day, but then the Soviet bombers come over. Hang on a minute. Hadn't we destroyed all of those? The village is a wreck. The Russians have been occupying the school with posters and propaganda all over the place, and all the windows are shattered, and he's horrified by what he sees. Sunday, 13th of July, 1941 off they go again yet more rain yet more long muddy roads um it stops after an hour by which time they're all soaked and a polongia a viennese infantry regiment turns in next to them and marches alongside them prompting all sorts of homesick pains no wonders that my thoughts turned to my

49:10Al Murray: beloved vienna and that i had a great wave of homesickness for you and the children that I thought of our beautiful buildings, of Schönbrunncastles, the Pradas, the Rings, the clean squares. And here we are, marching on the world's most impossible roads, driving these beasts before us. Two days later, they're in Skavila, and he's shocked to see emaciated Ukrainians pillaging ruined homes, like ants clearing out everything on their skinny backs. He's never seen such poverty or lack of civilization. and he's and he really is clearly incredibly shocked by how low the living standard is um which obviously unquestionably adds fuel to the fire of german superiority you know again he's thinking of schoenbrunn castle isn't he gorgeous vienna etc etc and here he is in this sort of godforsaken corner of of western ukraine southwestern ukraine um and at this point they're relieved by an SS division.

50:08So this would either be the Leibstandarte or the Viking. And he's told they'll have a bit of peace and quiet for a few days, but he doesn't believe it for a minute.

50:16Al Murray: Yes, there's no one thinking of rest. The road to victory, to destruction, to the complete annihilation of the Bolsheviks is still a long run. So he's getting the message, isn't he, that this is going to go on and on. Come the 18th of July, 1941, they're still paused at Skvira when he's told he's been awarded the Iron Cross Second Class. And he's the first in the regiment to have been awarded it since the start of the campaign. And he's absolutely, he's pleased as punch, isn't he? You know, it's a ceremony and everyone cheers him and, you know, he gets the medal put onto his chest and blah, blah, blah.

50:49Lovely. But off again on the 20th of July. But before they leave, a prisoner is brought before them who is just 13 years old. Pruder just, you know, who's hard enough to get his head around female soldiers. But a 13-year-old, you know, and of course, you wait. I mean, you won't be quite so shocked by 1945, chum, I can tell you. But anyway, he's still in a state of shock about just how awful the Soviet Union is. And his impression had been one of model factories, of model prisons, of model houses, model farms, et cetera. You know, that is what he understood communism to be. Yeah.

51:31Al Murray: Yeah. And he says, you didn't hear much about the poor, crushed people themselves. Only is that they were poor, really poor in every sense of the word. Peasant houses with straw roofs, which look more like dog huts, a ragged, dirty, animal-like people. Roads which are either messes of sand or other, because it rains all the time, molasses of mud. The town's worst and the worst provincial backfoods nest at home. And despite all this, the land is so incredibly rich. as far as the eye can see. Veet and Kornfields without end. What's behind it all? So, I mean, he concludes and realises that the Soviets are enslaved by the regime, by whipping commissars, that the paradise of communism is nothing but lies and bluffing.

52:11Al Murray: And he says the paradise of the workers was nothing but a conglomeration of hunger and misery, murder and mass imprisonment, slavery and torture. We shall crush them, so help us got. But Wilhelm, what about the Nazis? Yeah, exactly. I mean, come on. Hold on, mate. Can you not see the irony in what you're saying here? Yeah. I mean, clearly not. This is the point. Well, and the plan, after all, is to starve out this part of the world, isn't it, and give it to Germans. So what's the difference? Yeah, so look after them, bring asphalted roads, and turn them into autobots. Yeah. Anyway, 24th of July, 1941, they're given a briefing at regimental headquarters by colonel to update them on the general situation.

52:51and as we shall discover in the next episode by the 24th of July you know things are in crisis mode certainly in army group center and in their immediate area they have six divisions in action they're told they're in the process of a major encirclement of Soviet troops in Ukraine and it's estimated that one or two more Russian armies will have to capitulate within the next few days the Red Army the colonel tells them has overall lost 100 divisions and this means they've already lost to all intents and purposes. You know, the war is all but over. And this sort of rhetoric is being repeated all along the front, the German front at this time.

53:28The best troops have been overrun in the, this is the Red Army's best troops in the border battles and the vast losses of men and material, gigantic and completely irreplaceable. That's what they're told. They're now just sending ill-trend masses, which won't be up to much. So in other words, it's in the bag. That's the message.

53:47Al Murray: Yeah, I reckon that the Russian campaign will be over by the middle of September, he says. I mean, goodness me. He's talked to his mates and that's what they've decided. Yeah, exactly. Well, his mates are still alive. I mean, and it rains over the next few days, then clears at the beginning of August. And he's appalled and shocked by the villages and towns. But he loves the landscape, vast fields of wheat and sunflowers. He loves watching the sunflowers turn their heads with the sun. He says, you can't imagine what a happy feeling it is to see such a country. as far as eyes can see fields corn wheat field after fields this is great country we are capturing for our children this earth this wealth it's simply wonderful you know he's entirely in keeping with most human beings that they're not straight lines you know that they're not entirely consistent all the time you know what you're thinking on on the 24th of july is not what you're thinking on the 3rd of july you know they've just had this inspiring speech saying you know we've got them on the run.

54:41We've almost done it. We're almost winning. So he's now and they've paused. So he's caught up on his feet and all he can see is these beautiful fields forever. And he's suddenly thinking, yeah, actually, I can see how this is all going to work. I can see why we would want this and I can see what an amazing potential this country has if only we could get rid of these impoverished dogs. I mean, that's the tone of it. Anyway, they don't move a huge amount for a few days because at this point, this is a point, as we should discover in our next episode, where there's a major realignment going on in the entire strategy for Barbarossa.

55:17So it's not until the 4th of August 1941 that he's in action again, and this time it's a big battle for Ternovka. It's a victory again, and his battalion alone captures more than 3 ,000 enemy plus a mass of booty. But he's also had several lucky escapes. Houtman Sartorius is shot through the head, standing where Prudah had been just moments before. Then just before Tenovko, they paused on a rise and went forward. And Prudah was shocked to see Russian vehicles as far as he could see, albeit heading backwards, bugging out of the town. But there's still a lot of them. And, you know, they've been led to believe that this was a death row.

55:56So he's then ordered to go and find the commander of the 33rd Panzer Regiment. And moments later, Shoba was also killed where Prudah had just been standing, talking to their battalion CEO. So he's having one lucky shave after another. And that evening, they finally reach Turnovka. Yeah.

56:14Al Murray: And he says, the place is full of Russians. And prisoners tell us that there are supposedly two generals in the place. At 2200, I lie down, dog tired on some straw. It was a terrible day. But again, luck was with me. How long will I last? By this time, they've suffered 350 losses in the battalion. So a third of their combat strength. More than a third. which would in the current money render them combat ineffective wouldn't it in the current modern reckoning so they're winning but they're not winning enough and maybe they're winning a bit too much at the same time they're not winning enough and they're winning too much and so our next episode will be the last in this series yes we're going to leave Wilhelm Prüller there for the time being and as Jim intimated we're going to return to what's happening in Army Group Centre and the efforts close to the Smolensk pocket This series will get us up to the beginning of August 1941, and then later on this year, we'll return to Barbarossa and, of course, Operation Typhoon and the encirclement of Kiev and the march on Moscow and all the rest of it, and Leningrad, the start of the siege of Leningrad.

57:18This period up to the beginning of August, this is really where the seeds of the failure in the Eastern Front are sown. And really where you can sort of chart the failure of Barbarossa at a stage which I think is much earlier than most people would consider. I mean, as we've been going through this and as will be absolutely come clear in our last episode in this series, this, you know, we're talking about biting off more than you can chew. it's just it's an absolute mess is all I can say

57:53Al Murray: yeah yeah yeah but essentially don't do it you know don't do it don't invade the Soviet Union don't do it no matter how compelling the reasons seem to be don't do it don't do it it won't work anyway there's your TLDR for this series if you'd like to hear of these of course without any adverts or annual all in one delicious lump In fact, if what you need to do is get to that episode eight right now, then become a patron. Join the We Have Ways of Making You Talk patron. Become a member. And there's loads of other stuff behind the paywall. There's audio books. There's ticket offers. There's merch.

58:30Al Murray: There's live casts with me and Jim. And we will see you in Slumensk in our next episode. Cheerio. Cheerio.

58:48Al Murray: Hello, Goalhanger History listeners. This is Marina Hyde and Richard Osman from The Rest Is Entertainment. Hello, everybody. Every Thursday and Friday, we are reacting to the pop culture phenomenon that is the celebrity traitors. We'll be on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. And Marina and I are digging into all the castles, twists and turns, giving our expert opinion on what should happen next. Now, which historical figure do we think would be the greatest traitor. It's tempting to think of an actual traitor. Yeah. A Guy Fawkes or a Kim Philby. But then all of those are traitors who got caught.

59:19Al Murray: Philby had a great run, though. He did have a great run. I think he could probably see off, you know, Joanne. Yes, maybe. And probably sort of where he ended up in Moscow is probably roughly like where the contestants have to spend every night as well. So maybe there's some sort of equivalence. So if you're watching Celebrity Traitors, don't forget to tune into our reaction episodes every Thursday and Friday night at 10pm. Find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.