Barbarossa In Ukraine: Capitalism To The Rescue (Part 2)

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3:25Al Murray: Welcome. Welcome, everyone, to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. With me, Al Murray and James Holland. And this is, well, our next Barbarossa series, isn't it? The Road to Kiev. Here we are, The Soviet Union is is punch drunk and unable to make rational decisions. The German set up is punch drunk and unable to make rational decisions. And they're slugging it out in August of 1941, trying to get one over the other. Complete strategic muddle at the top of both belligerents, isn't it? That's the really interesting thing. And Stalin's strategic muddle encouraging Hitler to believe that he is a genius, because basically Stalin's gone and done what Hitler needs him to do in order for Hitler's brilliant plan to succeed.

4:04Al Murray: So you've this weird confluence, serendipity of decision-making on the Soviet side that helps the completely sclerotic, stupid, deluded decision-making on the German side. It's making it work or making it look like they're getting it right, isn't it? Which is very, very, very peculiar. Yes, although at this time, in the third week of August 1941, it's absolutely clear that Barbarossa is stalling because the main thrust towards Moscow, which Hitler professes that he never really wanted to do in the first place, has now been split and it's gone north while the main, you know, the centre bit of it is still trying to hold out against repeated counterattacks, which is where Stalin thinks the main attack is.

4:47Zhukov has warned him that that's not the case and that they've got a very vulnerable flank to the south, which Stalin is kind of to a large extent ignoring. That is exactly what Hitler is now trying to do. But as you point out, you know, both his senior command wanted to go to Moscow. He never wanted to go to Moscow. He wanted to go to Leningrad and go into the breadbasket of Europe, into the Ukraine, and hence onto the oil fields of the Caucasus. But there is also this, compounding this, is a sense of time running out. This is always supposed to be a three-month campaign, that they haven't really moved very far at all.

5:23and certainly the front has not gone eastwards at all in the last three and a half weeks at all, really. In fact, in parts it's gone back because they've abandoned the Yelnia salient and gone on to the defensive, as we discovered in the last episode. And the Red Army is not annihilated and completely destroyed. The flip side of that is, yes, the Russians seem to have, or the Soviets seem to have inexhaustible amounts of manpower and they have the potential to churn out vast numbers of T1s T-34s and KV-1s, tanks and L2, Sturmovic, you know, ground attack fighters and all the rest of it. And Kadyusha rockets.

6:02But is there a case that the whole Soviet Union might collapse? That's that's the concern for Stalin. You know, it's a bit like Britain, you know, in the last week of May 1940. You know, on paper, there's no reason to throw in the towel because you've got a navy or an island, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but is the will sapping? Is there a collective panic where you just can't keep the whole show on the road? And that is the fear for the Soviets. And there is a sense in this third week of August that time is running out. Time is running out for the Germans to complete this annihilation of the Soviet Union and complete this conquest.

6:36And time is potentially running out for the Soviet Union because they've lost so much in that first 500 kilometres of German victories. They've lost so many resources and stuff. And when we get on to the next series, which we're going to do in the new year on Operation Typhoon, which is the next phase of the of the Eastern Front campaign, we'll look a bit more in detail in what is going in the transfer of factories to the Urals and all the rest of it and how much actually they leave behind, which is quite a lot. Yes. And a huge amount of sort of coal mines and steel reserves and bauxite and all the rest of it.

7:10So that is the question. And the attrition is absolutely terrible. You know, too much is being expected of too few in the spearheads of the Germans. Guderian's blowing a gasket, and this is entirely understandable. But he's also at the same time guilty of assuming that his drive southwards is the only show in town, which it isn't. Bock, who is the commander of Army Group Centre, is having a nightmare just trying to keep the Central Eastern Front in order. And the whole thing is about to kick off again. But the chances of the Soviet Union of holding on, keeping the show on the road, keeping the Germans at bay and turning defeat into victory rather rests on surprising allies to the West.

7:53So I think it's important in this telling of the Barbarossa tale to just pause a second or an hour and find out what the response to Barbarossa is in Britain and in the USA. Because Britain and US support for the Soviet Union is immediate, although obviously it takes time to kick in. On one level, it's surprising. On another, not at all. This is real politic, isn't it?

8:17Al Murray: And it's a silver lining for Stalin. Yeah. And given Britain's circumstances, you can see why the British would clutch at the, you know, or grab enthusiastically with both hands the possibility of an alliance with the Soviet Union. But America is a more, you know, what's actually going on there? That's quite curious because America, of course, isn't in the war yet. America's still sat on the sidelines, isn't it? And it's doing its arsenal of democracy bit, but you can hardly describe the Soviet Union as a democracy. No, you certainly can't. But it's interesting, isn't it? Yes, but the grand plan for America is to pay other people to do the hard yards so that their young men don't do it.

8:56That's how FDR has sold it and get rich in the process.

8:59Al Murray: Yeah, so here's a golden opportunity to do exactly that. And before the war, the fact is, is American companies have been working with the Soviets in helping them learn mass production, engineering tasks and all this sort of stuff. After all, the T-34 has an American suspension. Christie suspension. You know, so there's actually plenty of cross-pollination. And the people in the Soviet Union may hate capitalism, but they're cynical enough to borrow its methods, use its methods to industrialise. You know, just because they don't like capitalism doesn't mean they don't like industrialisation, for instance.

9:33Al Murray: So you get, I mean, it's interesting. Stalin in his 3rd of July radio address that he makes to the people of the Soviet Union, which is sort of a famous rallying cry. This is the great patriotic, yes. Yes, where he finally has to say something. He says, and Jim, you're Stalin for the purposes of our listeners, aren't you? Yes, he says that German aggression against the USSR, instead of the reverse has brought a tremendous political gain to the USSR and that Britain and America's support is a serious and lasting factor that is bound to form the basis of the development of decisive military successes of the Red Army.

10:18Right. He's in the room, isn't he?

10:19Al Murray: He's in the room. It's terrifying. And, you know, this is, of course, this is the twist, isn't it? You know, Lenin in his mausoleum in Red Square. I mean, they must be squirming. It's the idea that communism is now going to have to be rescued and is now dependent on Anglo-Saxon capitalism. Although, as I said before, they've been cynical enough. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Exactly. And after all, the US and the British, I mean, the British government in particular, wildly anti-British government has been wildly anti-communist up to this point. Wildly. Wildly. And certainly the gentleman in charge of the British government, And we'll get to him, obviously.

11:01Al Murray: The Soviet invasion of Finland in November 39 means that the Americans imposed an embargo on exports to Russia, including aluminium. So FDR has also shown his cards. And under his administration, there's been a fair deal of red scare anyway about what he's been up to with the New Deal. So he needs to draw a line under that. And here's an opportunity. Obviously, the embargo isn't a problem for the Soviets because the Germans are helping out with exports, which is, after all, a big part of the relationship in the non-aggression pact. But after Barbarossa, that's the end of all supplies. And obviously, the Germans are burning through kit, burning through stuff as the campaign proceeds.

11:44Al Murray: It's quite interesting, isn't it? FDR, however, has already lifted the embargo in January 1941. Well, they're not a war with the Fins anymore, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter, does it? Yeah, because before Hitler has even invaded, even though the Soviets are still, you know, you get your balance sheet out, they're not behaving any better, are they? And in February 1941, Harry... Well, they're allies of Germany at that point. Well, exactly, exactly, yes. Yes, they are allies. It's important to say this is not an unaggression pact. They're in an alliance with the Germans. And then in February of 1941, Harry Hopkins, who's FDR's aid...

12:17I love FDR and everything, but...

12:21Al Murray: No, you go tell him. You go tell him they're allies with the Germans. I'm going to the White House. I'm going to tell him. FDR, oi. Stop it. But his aide, Harry Hopkins, goes to see the Soviets to try and coordinate strategic exports. And there's plenty of objection in Congress. That's back in February 1941. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing, isn't it? Why are they doing that? Because they're now building, they're creating all this stuff. They're going to have to give stuff to the Allies. So they want to sell stuff to the Soviet Union. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Build up your export market and that's how you get rich again.

12:56Exactly. Well, and there have been promises that everyone... There's always been real politic in the FDR grand vision.

13:02Al Murray: Yeah, yeah. And everyone's been led to believe they're going to get rich. But although there's objection in Congress, it isn't enough to stop it. But, you know, they've made their argument and it's still... Their consternation is still influential over things. Interesting, isn't it? Even in June 1941, the Soviet Foreign Ministry warns that the entire American press is waging a furious campaign against the USSR. So they're not they're not happy. But then the Soviet Foreign Ministry's attitude is generally hostile to everyone, isn't it? Even in even in June 1941. And there there is massive anti-Soviet sentiment in Washington.

13:40Al Murray: I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? um henry stimpson is the u.s secretary of war he declares two uh ranking russian uh aviation officers working under diplomatic cover at the soviet embassy he calls them persona non grata and they're suspected of spying and this is on the 10th of june the 10th of june 1941 and scheduled for deportation on the 21st so even as barbara ossa is coming up over the hill the american posture to the soviets is is pretty hostile and and vice and vice versa yeah it's it's absolutely amazing isn't it yeah and the other issue is public opinion because after all you know we we don't really we don't really hear much about public opinion when it comes to what's going on the soviet union do we but in america it obviously it really matters yeah of course it does it because it's a democracy and and you know he's got a win over congress and congress have got a are going to do the bidding of the public.

14:34And there's still a huge anti-war sentiment. And, you know, this is another means of getting drawn into it and so on and so forth. You can see how it's going. And while FDR's support for Soviets is still strong, because he's very, very keen on this idea of letting other people do the fighting so that their young men don't do it. Yes, he knows that ultimately the US is going to be drawn into the war, but let's leave it as long as possible. Let's leave it until public opinion supports it. And the more they're funneling arms and supporting the enemies of their enemies, the better. You know, I mean, it's a very Machiavellian but pragmatic approach to this, I think.

15:14And, you know, I can completely see where he's coming from. But there are a number of irreconcilables. These are the people who doesn't matter, you know, whatever the situation, doesn't matter how much Nazi Germany appears to be trouncing the Red Army. Nuh-uh. You're not going to side with the Ruskies, not with a whole bunch of commies and, you know, after what they've done with the purges, the kind of famine in Ukraine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Senator Hiram Johnson goes, I want to leave these two scoundrels, Hitler and Stalin, to fight it out. And Republican Hamilton Fish III on national radio, he says,

15:50Al Murray: American mothers will not willingly sacrifice their sons to make the world safe for communism. Preposterous to think of America being aligned with Joe Stalin as our pal and comrade, with his hands dripping with blood of murdered priests and nuns and the same dagger in his hand, which he plunged into the backs of Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and our friends, the little honest Republic of Finland. I mean, he needs to get off the fence, doesn't he? And then the Republican Frank C. Osmond Jr. I also fish the fudge really, really just saying it exactly as it is, isn't it? He's just telling it the way he sees it, yeah.

16:24Al Murray: And then the Republican Frank C. Osmers Jr., he says, Jim, make no ill-considered promise to send non-existent war material on non-existent ships to a nation whose whole concept of life is repugnant to us. I mean, that's what he says. That's what he says. And then Senator Robert Taft, who's always been, he's been a mortal enemy of FDRs. How does Robert Taft, he's a bit more East Coast. Well, the victory of communism in the world would be far more dangerous to the United States than the victory of fascism. He's not from West Virginia. That's the way I'm playing him. Well, he is now. He is now, exactly.

17:05So, yes, so there's also opposition outside Congress. Yep, yep. It's not just in Congress. There's lots of people being outspoken about it. And Robert E. Wood, who is the America First movement, remember them kind of palling around with Charles Lindbergh? Yep. America First. they sort of come into being in September 1940 because they don't want to get involved in the war. And he issues a public statement declaring, The entry of communist Russia into the war certainly should settle once and for all the intervention issue. With the ruthless forces of a dictatorship and aggression now clearly aligned on both sides, the war party can hardly ask the people of America to take up arms behind the red flag of Stalin or undertake a program of all-out aid of Russia.

17:47Well, that's exactly what they can expect.

17:49Al Murray: I mean, he must like being wrong, Robert E. Wood. I think you're wrong about that, Robert E. Wood. It's extraordinary. But there's also, of course, the American Communist Party. Yes, who have to completely reverse their stance. The poor dear darlings. Pre-Barbarossa. Pre-Barbarossa, of course, they're against non-intervention because after all, the Soviet Union... No, don't get involved. But also, if the Soviet Union is happy with Nazi Germany, so are they. That's just the way it works, right? Even if they're fascists, Nazis, and they were opposed to them until five minutes before the non-aggression pact, they're fine with them now.

18:29Al Murray: But now that fascism, Nazism has attacked the Soviet Union, they're all for it, aren't they? They're all for intervention. And they say, full support and cooperation with the Soviet Union and its struggle against Hitlerism. so um uh they're they're can i just apologize to any american listeners for our absolutely appalling range array of american accents that's the american communist party that's the american communist party i'm not apologizing to them anyway they all sound like that but what happens though is that public opinion public sympathy in um in america shifts towards the ussr they're generally sympathetic, but they don't want to fight on their behalf, which is, I mean, you know, make your minds up, lads.

19:16Al Murray: Understandable. Yeah, it's understandable. And that's fine, because that's exactly what FDR's suggesting. He's saying, look, we'll ship them the arms so they can fight the Nazis so that our young boys don't have to. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's not to like? And a Gallup poll of July 1941 says that 54 % still oppose extending military aid to the USR, but that's only 54%, isn't it? You know, you're kind of almost over the line if you're FDR. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But But none of this, interestingly, none of this actually determines policy, does it? None of these hectoring voices and opinion poll needles.

19:48Al Murray: FDR just cracks on. He's won an overwhelming third term the previous November. Yeah. And what he wants to do is help the Soviets out. So they've already, it's amazing, isn't it? They'd already decided that they were eligible for aid under the terms of a lend-lease. It's fascinating, isn't it? You know, behind the scenes. I mean, isn't it? The arsenal of democracy. the arsenal of democracy and repression. Well, you know, end the war as quickly as possible. If that means the Soviets have to fight it for you, then fine. And Henry Stimson is particularly passionate. It's pragmatism writ large, isn't it?

20:22Al Murray: That's the point. Yeah, hardcore realpolitik. Well, and it also doesn't mean that you have to abandon your higher purpose, which is sort of global democracy for all and the four freedoms and all the rest of it. That's the ultimate aim. But in the short term, you've got a problem on your hands, although you've got an opportunity on your hands. Because if the Red Army, with American help, can slaughter lots of Nazi Germans so that you don't have to, great. But this is the, in a way, this is the mirror image of Stalin turning to capitalism. In the long time, the revolution will triumph. But in the meantime, we're going to use capitalism to help us do it.

20:54Al Murray: So they're in perfect sympathy with each other. It's real politic. Real politic cynicism. Yeah, but from different political positions. And, you know, in the end, liberty will triumph. In the end, communism will triumph. We're going to use each other to do it. That's exactly what's going on. Fascinating, isn't it? So in a memo, Henry Stimson, he warns about the opposition they're going to receive, they're going to face from anti-communists, led by the Catholic Church and from Protestant German Americans. So really interestingly, in order to counter criticism of siding with the atheistic Soviet regime, Stimson suggests emphasising the anti-religious elements of Nazism and framing support of Stalin as an effort to help Russian Christians.

21:40Al Murray: And actually, what the Soviets are going to do is free up religious worship in the Soviet Union anyway. They do that anyway because Stalin's going to use absolutely every lever he can possibly pull to unite the population. So there's a weird coincidence there as well, isn't there, where they're reading that issue in different ways. And then two days after Barbarossa, FDR frees up$39 million in frozen Soviet funds for arms orders. The following day, the 25th of June, FDR announces he won't apply the Neutrality Act to the Soviet-German war. From here on, American ships can legally supply goods to Soviet ports as long as they're distant from the war zone, which is actually more than Roosevelt's done for England at this point.

22:25Al Murray: And that's all, of course, because it's possible because they can sail over the Pacific. Vladivostok, you know, it's doable, isn't it? It's the other thing in a way that they're not running the risk of a U-boat blockade or any of that sort of stuff. So, again, it's the art of the possible. So, again, it's Machiavellian, but it's deeply pragmatic, isn't it? I think that's the key point here. This is absolutely real politic. This is about the ultimate goal, but you have to make some short term compromises to get there. Exactly. And then on the 30th of June, the Soviet embassy places the first request for one point eight billion dollars worth worth of warplanes, anti aircraft guns and other aviation supplies.

23:07Al Murray: And then on the 8th of July, so sort of a working week later, FDR approves this request in principle. This is amazing, isn't it? How fast this is going. 26th of July, a Soviet military mission arrives in Washington, D.C. Now they've got their feet under the table, armaments-wise, the Soviets. And then... Big time. Public opinion is the nut they have to crack, though, isn't it, Jim? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And surveys between July and August, conducted by Harry Hopkins' own Lend Lee staff, find a majority of people in only 11 out of 48 states support aid the you know aid to russia and even in michigan a supportive state with big you know a big automobile industry that would benefit very clearly from this the people there are are kind of you know at best ambivalent and most want both sides to lose i mean to be perfectly honest i think that's pretty much what what roosevelt wants but he just wants as many germans sort of taken out of the picture as possible um by the soviet union rather than as you say having to do a kind a cross-channel invasion, etc.

24:11Anyway, amidst this sort of prevalence of opposition from the media, from the Chicago Tribune, the New York Post, Daily News, Herald Tribune, Hopkins nonetheless gives Stalin's ambassador to the US, Konstantin Umansky, assurances that he'd keep incorrigible anti-Soviet types in Washington away from FDR, which I think is really, really interesting.

24:33Al Murray: But meanwhile, you know, what are the Brits thinking, Al? I mean, what are they up to? I mean, again, they're very quick to offer support to Stalin. And after all, you know, Churchill's in a different situation because he's actually at war with the Germans. You know, he can't he can't sort of make his mind up about it, can he? And they have actually, they've war gamed the possibility. The British war gave the possibility. Churchill's expecting it to happen. And, you know, there's a trail of breadcrumbs. It's explicit in Mein Kampf that this is what Hitler wants to do. And Churchill also, he regards it in the same light that Hitler does.

25:11Al Murray: It's a prelude. He's sorting out, basically, it's a prelude before dealing with the West. So he's sorting out his backyard before he comes for the West. and Churchill makes a speech immediately pledging support to the Soviets. He says, the Russian danger is therefore our danger and the danger of the United States, just as the cause of any Russian fighting for his half and home is the cause of free men and free peoples in every quarter of the globe. So, you know, it's turned a neat phrase and it's, again, it's... Tremendous stuff. It's real politic as well. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because Britain immediately, there's big gestures in what they do immediately.

25:57Al Murray: So there's 200 Hawker Hurricane, brand new Hawker Hurricane fighters, which are meant to have gone to Singapore against Japan, are pledged. 259 Valentine tanks. And this is good kit. 145 Matilda tanks. 300 Douglas A-20 Havoc light bombers, which they've already got from Nenalees, but they're just going to send straight on. and then 2 ,000 tonnes of processed aluminium. They haven't gotten those from Lend-Lease. They've bought them. They've bought those. No, they've bought them. They've bought those, really. Okay. Well, I suppose they're thinking, well, we'll get some more down the pipe. But still, you're handing them over, aren't you?

26:30Al Murray: This aluminium is obviously you need for warplane production. This is an immediate down payment on involvement. And obviously, the Germans don't like it, do they? They don't like it up them. And anyway, Goebbels announces, that the cries of hell for the Soviet Union would probably remain more platonic than tangible. But clearly he doesn't think this. He thinks exactly the opposite, which is why he's saying it. Yeah, he can't believe that for a minute. And then the fact that you're saying that is you're trying to put a good spin on it. And you're really, you're thinking, oh, yikes, this could be a problem.

27:06Yeah, yeah, exactly. But guess what? I mean, what's really interesting is obviously the amount of American kit that eventually wends its way to the Soviet Union, far surpasses anything that the British can provide, but it is the British who send kit first. And they do so with a convoy that leaves the UK bound for Russia on the 12th of August, Operation Dervish. I mean, splendid name, isn't it? Yeah. And on the 21st of September, so we're jumping ahead a little bit here, Archibald Sinclair, who's the Liberal Secretary of State for Air, writes to Harry Hopkins, and he says, The proposal which your people brought to us, and which we felt bound to accept, mean a long postponement of our hopes of building up an air force of overwhelming strength.

27:53In fighters, it will mean that we shall have to run risks at home, and shall have no margin for such additional calls upon us for fighter squadrons as are certain to be made during 1942. Nevertheless, we realise that sacrifices and risks must be accepted in order to keep Russia in the war. It's a way up, isn't it? Yeah. You've got to do what you've got to do, is what this is all about. 22nd of September, Lord Beaverbrook, the press baron, also the Minister of Aircraft Production. You know, he's Minister of Production by this point. He declares tanks for Russia week in British factories. And the first off the line was dubbed Stalin.

28:29And they have a few more, which are then called, you know, Uncle Joe and another one called Zhukov or something. Yeah. Anyway, and another one called Lenin. And this proves immensely popular in Britain. And British are very anti-Komi, obviously. Obviously. But even more anti-Nazi. And why wouldn't they be? Yeah. And these supplies are now sent by a new convoy route, the Arctic convoys as they become known, up around Iceland and over the top into Mammansk and Archangel. and they are very dangerous because they're close to German-held territory and they're obviously also in very troublesome seas.

29:12Al Murray: Yeah. Well, should we take a break, Jim? Because it's not just supplies that go to the Soviet Union. An American emissary will be heading there very shortly. We'll see you in a tick.

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31:17Al Murray: welcome back to we have ways of making talk um during the break jim i went and told the furor what i thought of his plans it didn't go down well uh he he chewed the carpet did he not what What did he say? Oh, he said, he told me I was a traitor. Did he cover your spittle? Yeah, I just had to go for a wash because I was so covered in saliva. It's horrible, horrible business. Anyway. And bad breath. Bad breath. Bad breath, saliva. Right. So Harry Hopkins is a central figure to this story, isn't he? We should now see what happens as he goes to visit Moscow because he's quite the character and he's in quite the situation, isn't he?

31:55Al Murray: Because he's not a well man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's very much the mouthpiece of Roosevelt. He's his close aide. He's a great friend of Roosevelt's. He comes from the Midwest. He's very sickly. He's had stomach cancer in 1937 or eight or something like that and has basically two-thirds of his stomach removed. So he's very pale, very emaciated. And Roosevelt sends him off because he's sort of his closest confidant and he completely trusts him. And obviously, Roosevelt can't go himself because of health and because he's president of the United States. And he can't just go swanning off to Moscow, left, right and centre.

32:35And actually, it's interesting because since the very start of the war, Hopkins has been living in the Lincoln bedroom in the White House. He doesn't leave again until, I think, 1944 or something. But anyway, he's also been one of the key people behind the New Deal of the 1930s, these public work projects. And he basically has 24-hour access to the president. But anyway, Roosevelt asks him to go to Moscow as his emissary. And he agrees, even though he's never very well and all the rest of it. He still undertakes, I mean, he undertakes unbelievable numbers of overseas missions during the war. It's quite remarkable.

33:09He's an incredible man, Hopkins. Incredibly clever, very, very smart, very charming. He has a kind of very easy, natural charm, and everyone warms to him. And he's very good at instantly reading the room, empathising with other people, being wry, putting people at their ease. And he understands the sort of instinctively how to talk to different people, whether it be Churchill, whether it be British aristocracy and generals, whether it be communists, whether it be dictators. He just has that instinct, which makes him a very, very brilliant diplomat, it has to be said. Anyway, he goes in July to reassure Stalin of USAID and to do it in person.

33:55And FDR writes to Stalin ahead of Hopkins' visit. And he says, I ask you to treat Mr. Hopkins with the identical confidence he would feel if you were talking directly to me. He will communicate directly to me the views that you express to him and will tell me what you consider are the most pressing individual problems on which we could be of aid.

34:17Al Murray: I mean, this is Roosevelt's style, though, isn't it? It's people he trusts, people completely in his confidence, and then the people on the outside who have no idea really what he thinks. But Hopkins knows exactly what FDR's about, what he thinks. And then it's 24-hour. It's a 24-hour flight to Russia. Incredibly arduous. And, you know, flying is that much more dangerous than it is now. It's nothing like his routine. And he arrives during a pause on the central Belarusian front. And it's interesting. It's calm enough in Moscow that he gets taken on a sightseeing tour by the American ambassador, Steinhardt.

34:52Al Murray: And he thinks Steinhardt doesn't think that the Germans are going to be able to conquer the USSR easily. He thinks he thinks it's unlikely that it's going to happen. But the American military attache, Colonel Ivan Yeaton, he's much more pessimistic. And Hopkins, basically, he notes Yeaton's position. He sort of leans into the pessimism in order to galvanise himself, I think is what he does, isn't he? He thinks he's wondering whether the pessimism is going to be an obstacle to lend-lease plans, essentially. And Yewton's sceptic about the Soviet state. He thinks that they're, you know, he thinks they lack propriety.

35:34Al Murray: And it's because he's been in Moscow and he hates Russians and mistrusts the leadership. There's lots of reasons to do that. isn't there i mean once he was being escorted with other attaches by nkvd overseers on a tour of the city's aviation factories in 1940 and the driver ran over a pedestrian at 60 miles an hour and the driver said he didn't feel like slowing down i mean jesus christ that's a shocking instant isn't it yeah um who are these lunatics exactly i mean you can see why yeaton's taking a dim view can't you yeah and and then he also um he's told by his german counterpart that um before barbara also begins that official production numbers in the soviet union often inflate often inflated by 40 to 60 percent well you know that's true don't you yeah you know that's true so he doesn't know what so you know that's true so what he's saying is you don't know what's true here you don't know the truth everyone's lying and he observed in june 1941 the troop trains from the far east have been passing through to the white russian front for weeks so he doesn't believe that the soviets weren't expecting the Germans to attack.

36:39Al Murray: In fact, he thinks they even knew of the date of the incoming invasion. He just doesn't believe a word anyone tells him. The reason that he won in the war, I believe, was a surprise was, in my opinion, because it was the only way he could avoid admitting his inability to check the initial thrust of Germany's panzer divisions. And he doesn't think it's because the Red Army's poised to invade Romania or something. Well, I think he's wrong about that, but... Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a good rationalisation, though, isn't it? of the Soviet position, you know, you can see his reasoning there that because they've handled it so badly, they need to say it was a surprise.

37:17Al Murray: So he's got their number, isn't he? He can smell how the Soviet Union works. Yeah, and they've got his number as well, to be fair. Yeah, exactly. They think he's going to be a goner. I have to say, Mr. Hopkins, we're not so sure about Colonel Yeaton. I mean, you know, he's not a friend to Russia. You know, you can see all this kind of conversation going on. One Reuters correspondent makes a$100 bet that he'll be fired. That's really funny. Yeah. And then, of course, so Hopkins, who's turned up, you know, he's here to help. He's here to make this all happen. Clashes with Yeaton. Doesn't want to hear it.

37:57Al Murray: And Yeaton recalled, Hopkins enthusiasm to get us involved in this war and his readiness to negotiate with Stalin on a I trust you basis gave me reasons to question whether or not his illness had affected his mind. Yeaton's being pretty hard boiled about that. You can see exactly the character that Yeaton is, can't you? I mean, he's he's he's uncompromising. He knows he's right and he's not going to be dissuaded from this point of view from, you know, after all, he's lived there. He's seen these Ivans, he's seen these Ruskies, and he knows they're a ruthless bunch of bastards who'd lie through their teeth all the time.

38:32Anyway, Hopkins gets increasingly irritated by Yeaton's resistance and ultimately ends the meeting by declaring, I don't care, I discuss the subject further. I sort of see him as a sort of Steve Buscemi kind of character. That's how you want to think of him. Anyway, so Yeaton is not invited to Hopkins' first meeting with Stalin, and Hopkins begins by stating he's not here in a personal capacity, but as a personal friend of Roosevelt with whom he lives and worked. And he also insists that FDR is prepared to do whatever is required to get the necessary aid to the Soviet Union. And, you know, you can argue that he's a bit too trusting, a bit too garless right from the start, but I don't think so.

39:09I don't see it like that. I think this is about him just wanting to inject American muscle, American arms right from the get-go. And, by the way, you know, just fast-forwarding to kind of Yalta and everything. One of the things where Roosevelt gets criticized, and we raised this when we did our Visionary series, is for being too naive at Yalta. But Roosevelt's whole game plan was to soften communism and have a post-war order where a kind of communist Soviet Union kind of merges much more into a kind of sort of gentle socialism and a government with whom the US can do business. This is all about this.

39:53This is about going, you don't need to be scared of capitalism. This is what we can offer you. We can help you. We're nice guys. We'll give you what you need. And aren't we good? And it's all about softening them. So of course, he's going in there. It's not about being naive. It's about having a clear strategy and fulfilling it. Whether that works or not is neither here nor there at this point. The point is, he is not being gulleless. He's being diplomatic and fulfilling the strategy that Roosevelt has asked him to go in with.

40:23Al Murray: Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, no, no one knows. No one really has the estimate of Stalin, actually, is part of the problem, isn't it? No one really. That's a miscalculation. But this is what they are trying to do. They're trying to make sure that the Russians don't collapse, make sure that they slaughter as many Germans as possible. and show that Western capitalism isn't anything to be feared. It's actually Western capitalism. They want it to soften the harshness of Stalinistic communism. Yeah. And Stalin grabs this, doesn't he? He grabs the chance straight away and asks for arms and aircraft.

41:02Al Murray: But actually what he wants is stuff. Yeah. He says, give us anti-aircraft guns and the aluminum and we can fight for three or four years. And which is actually how long it turns out to be. It's got interesting, isn't it? Yeah. You know, he's got that on his back of his fag packet already. And Hopkins agrees to this, but also arranges convoys to the Soviet Arctic with supplies. And Stalin is surprised by this, given the US aren't even sending convoys to England because the British Isles are considered a war zone. So Hopkins has gone there to make it happen regardless, which is why he's able to offer that as well, isn't it?

41:40Al Murray: Go further. Go further than you did even with the British is the thing. And then the next day, but also what also is in the mix is the thing to remember this, isn't it? Is, you know, we did our Japan series earlier in the year. The Americans have got something else on their mind, something pressing. So Hopkins goes to see the Soviet foreign minister, Molotov, the next day to talk about Japan. The Americans have, you know, are preparing for a second emergency, aren't they? goes to talk to them about Japan. And Molotov wants American assurance that Japan won't, you know, he wants to make sure that Japan won't get involved in the Soviet Far East.

42:19Yes, because even though Japan and the Soviet Union have got a non-aggression pact, they know, as you pointed out in the first episode in this series, that that counts for nothing because the Soviets certainly wouldn't think twice about breaking it. So why would the Japanese?

42:33Al Murray: Yeah, well, and the Japanese, after all, you know, set the whole thing in motion, didn't they? you know with their invasions of china jonathan's idea of uh uh collapse isn't it and and and he he i mean amazingly he floats the possibility of the americans defending the soviet union if japan was to attack fascinating isn't it and hopkins says i'll let you know about how i'll let you know how you feel about the japanese he says i'll let i'll let fdr know um and i'll also you know he'd ask FDR to make it clear to Japan that encroachments won't be tolerated. And so, you know, the Soviets want a lid on that.

43:12Al Murray: The Americans want a lid on that as well. So they want everyone on the same page, don't they? And interestingly, he doesn't think to ask anything for anything in return for Molotov. You know, he doesn't say, he says, we'll help you if you're attacked. But he doesn't say if we're attacked, could you help us? It's fascinating that, isn't it? it's all it's all unconditional and it's sort of a bit unsanctioned and it's a bit and it's just to say that you know it's just the authority of the of the president which obviously is the ultimate authority but but you know this is quite sort of behind the behind the behind closed doors isn't it it's fascinating isn't it um and he wants to do it himself he doesn't want to involve anyone else so there's a meeting another meeting um uh after the molotov meeting with starlin and Hopkins doesn't invite Yeaton or Steinhardt or even an American interpreter.

44:04Al Murray: This is the sort of thing that Donald Trump's emissaries getting bollocked for, isn't it, in the press that they don't take an American interpreter. They're just reliant on a local one. And obviously, he's violating diplomatic principles. And he asks Maxime Litinoff, who's a foreign affairs commissar, former Foreign Affairs Commissar, to translate instead. So he's relying on a... I mean, not brilliant, is he? Well, yeah, but what he's trying to do is he's trying to... Generate trust. He's recognising that Stalin... That he's a very tricky character and he wants to say, you can trust me. I am the direct mouthpiece of the president and I am talking to you in that capacity.

44:48You know, think of me as Roosevelt. This is Mano Amano.

44:51Al Murray: It's very weird. but you can see why they're doing it and there is it's interesting there is a transcript to this meeting though and Stalin is sort of blunt very blunt with Hopkins isn't he he lets it all hang out doesn't he yeah he really really does and he says that he doesn't think Britain and the USSR can defeat Germany alone well of course he's going to say that of course because he wants America in the war doesn't he and he definitely he's quite open about wanting FDR to bring the US into the war. The one thing that could defeat Hitler. I mean, he doesn't think that at all. He knows perfect well.

45:27He could bleed him on the Eastern Front, I think. Manpower isn't an issue for the Soviet Union, but material situation is, he says, dire. That is because in those first 500 kilometers of territory that have been gained by Nazi Germany, they have lost vast amounts of steel reserves, coalesce, coal mines and a whole host more. I mean, it has been catastrophic, the amount of losses. For all the kind of the Great Patriotic War myth of moving all these factories to the Urals, you just can't do that in that time. And so lots of them are overrun intact and supplies are overrun.

46:09Al Murray: And you can't move mines either. This is the other thing. The raw materials, the stuff you need for alloys. And, you know, that's the thing you can't move, the stuff for your raw materials. You can move the processing of the raw materials, but you can't move the raw materials. That's their real bind. After all, that's one of the reasons the Germans want to get their hands on Soviet territory is the stuff that's in it, after all. Not just the factories, the stuff, the soil, the mineral resources and so on. And he wants, I mean, amazing, doesn't he? He wants American steel, but for steel, you know, tanks to be manufactured in the US and shipped over.

46:48Al Murray: So he wants, you know, German tanks when they come online. That's what he'd like, you know, eventually. He wants, amazingly, he wants American long-range bombers to destroy Romanian airfields. What? What the how? Oilfields, oilfields. Plouesty, he wants them to attack Plouesty. That's what he really wants. Yeah, but how? The one source of oil that Germany has. But how? From where, Jim? yeah don't worry about that yeah don't worry about that i think you should go to moscow and you should have it out with stalin okay i'll go i'll go to moscow and i'll point it out to him absolutely no problem i'll take my own interpreter as well you do moscow okay fine no problem oi stalin um yeah and and what is what is stalin and stalin sums it up doesn't he he says the The outcome of the war in Russia will largely depend on the ability to enter the spring campaign with adequate equipment, particularly in tanks and anti-aircraft guns.

47:50So Hopkins then are starting to list his priorities. So Stalin scribbles on a pad. He's one, light anti-aircraft guns. Two, aluminum. Three, 50-caliber machine guns. And four, 30-caliber rifles. I mean, it's all basic stuff, isn't it? And Hopkins flies back to Washington, D.C., reports to FDR in the White House with Stalin's material requests and the plea that the U.S. enters the war. And Roosevelt agrees to deliver huge amounts of supplies to Stalin. And on the 31st of August, the orders, he orders Henry Stimson, who was the Secretary of State for War, Republican, grand old man of American politics, brought in in the summer of 1940 in this kind of what is effectively a national government, even though FDR is a Democrat, and to allocate for the Soviet Union 1 ,200 warplanes, 20 ,000 submachine guns, 2 ,194 transport trucks, 729 light tanks, 795 medium tanks, 991 anti-tank guns, 1 ,135 mortars, 152 heavy guns, 155 ,341 miles of telephone wire plus locomotives, steam engines, electric furnaces, machine tools, searchlights, hospital supplies, TNT explosive, leather for boots, aluminum, barbed wire and tungsten.

49:17And that is just the first order. That's pretty good, isn't it? If you're Stalin. Yeah, because do you remember when we were doing our Stalingrad series, we were pointing out that actually the US, by 1943 had given 343 ,000 miles of telephone wire. Yeah. Yeah.

49:36Al Murray: Yes. Which is a circumference of the world 23 times or something. Yeah, something like that. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because this is much more generous than the terms FDR offers to Churchill after the fall of France, isn't it? Well, a different time, isn't it? He's into his trimes now. He's won his third term and he's got Lend-Lease on the way and the factories are doing the arsenal of democracy. It's very easy to do it then. I wouldn't see that as a criticism of FDR, but it is interesting. I mean, 50 rusty old First World War destroyers for Churchill in September 1940. But for Stalin, FDR gives him an almost unlimited credit line to order whatever he wants and asks for nothing in return.

50:15But it is a year on and a year is a long time. I don't think one should read too much into this, as that's really what I'm saying.

50:23Al Murray: Yeah, yeah. Well, yes, because things have changed. And if he's promised loads of people they are going to rearm and make loads of money at rearmament, he's got an opportunity to follow through on that here, hasn't he? It's the other thing. So he's going to do that. And actually, once they do get into the swing of it, the monthly supplies which are pledged are unbelievable. 400 warplanes a month. 10 ,000 trucks a month. 5 ,000 Jeeps per month and do you remember what's his name, Chukov was having his Jeep as he arrived in Salingrad, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. 200 ,000 tonnes of wheat a month, 70 ,000 tonnes of sugar a month, 8 ,000 tonnes of sheet steel a month and 1 ,000 tonnes of aluminium ingots Incredible.

51:12But British Arms have reached the Soviet Union first and they're there for December 1941, just saying.

51:19Al Murray: Yeah, yeah, just saying just saying and and maybe maybe um uh decisive in their presence but well you know you know us the soviet union is closer is closer than than britain is yeah unfortunately poor old uh uh yeaton gets his marching papers he's sacked by hopkins so he doesn't get in the way of stuff and he he's replaced by a colonel philip famenville who's uh almost certainly an nkvd uh spy and from his arrival in Moscow, Feynmanville answers directly to Hopkins and obviously to the Lubyanka. And Hopkins also brings in Edward Stetinius Jr., who's the head of US Steel and one of Hopkins' closest friends.

52:05Al Murray: Puts him in charge of the American side of the Lendlease pipeline to Russia. Stetinius is already one of the dollar-a-year technocrats that FDR brought in the previous year. So when FDR assembled, along with Bill Knudsen and all the others. All those guys who know how they're going to make it work, turn it all around. It's interesting, isn't it? Because we did, I mean, you know, when we came to this episode, we did rather underline that the West doesn't like, you know, has been a staunch opponent of communism and the Soviet Union. And this flips, doesn't it? Almost completely in terms of the public messaging.

52:41Al Murray: Yeah. But, you know, it's very much a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. You know, that's what we've got here. And, you know, I just can't emphasize enough, this is a means of weakening Germany without risking British and American life. So, you know, it's absolutely part of FDR's ongoing narrative to the US public that becoming the arsenal of democracy, America can get rich and provide other nations so that their young men don't have to. I mean, you cannot look at this without a big dollop of cynicism. But I say all power to FDR for this. I mean, that's just being practical, isn't it?

53:18I mean, yeah, of course. You know, there is an alternative view that FDR absolutely knows the US is going to enter the war, of course. You know, but the US public is still not ready for this in the summer of 1941. So there's a bit of both going on here, you know.

53:30Al Murray: Yes. Well, he can only start from where he is rather than conjure up an ideal political situation, you know. And obviously, from the British perspective, you know, we've been fighting Germany alone for the best part of, you know, for a year and a half or fighting alone for a year. You know, so the Soviet Union coming in is... Nearly two years. Yeah, alone for a year and fighting the war for two years. Yeah, yeah. Soviets coming in, it's only good news. Though, obviously, if the Soviets lose, that is extremely bad news. that's a full-on disaster so they need to keep them in for survival reasons of survival, existential reasons is why you side with the Soviets and why you want to keep them going.

54:19And I think what's interesting about this is that Stalin and his apologists always claim that they paid them blood for Lend-Lease, which they sort of did, but the massive Red Army losses are largely because of Soviet incompetence and not least Stalin's incompetence, as we shall show in the next couple of episodes of this series. You know, it's not Britain or the United States fault that they're so badly trained and underprepared and Stalin makes terrible decisions about not abandoning Kiev and all the rest of it. And there is absolutely also no question that for Britain, Soviet losses are far preferable to British losses.

55:01You know, on the other hand, there's absolutely no reciprocity from the Soviets. There's absolutely no reciprocity from the Soviets. And after all, you know, Stalin doesn't help Churchill at all during the Battle of Britain, not even neutral. And he's providing fuel for the Luftwaffe to come over Britain and attack and bomb it. So, you know, and Stalin also collaborated with Hitler to carve up Eastern Europe. And he also refused to apply knowledge to Churchill's letters and advances until he himself needed help. You know, I mean, he's a complete bastard, isn't he? So, but it is significant that in committing to Soviet material support, Churchill is diverting supplies away from parts of the empire that need defending, you know, such as Egypt, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong.

55:44And as a result, potentially endangering long term imperial interests. So the bottom line is that this is the present danger, the most immediate danger. And this is one that has to be answered.

55:56Al Murray: Yeah, because the British position is always more immediate and essentially tactical. What do we do about now? How do we make now work? Whereas Roosevelt is able to be more strategic and pick and choose his moments a bit more. I mean, they don't. And what they don't do, you know, reciprocity is the question. They don't make demands of Stalin. They don't ask for help in case Japan comes in. They never do. And Stalin also makes it absolutely clear that he's not interested anyway. And the American envoy Avril Harriman is told by Stalin in no uncertain terms of the Soviet position. Yeah, I mean, you know, Stalin says to him, Russia might be neutral if hostilities develop between Japan and the United States.

56:42And Avril Harriman then asked him whether he thought such neutrality was likely. And Avril Harriman recorded his answer was a smile. You know, the sly old dog. so yeah you know the question is were britain and the united states too generous of the soviet union well i you know i don't think so i i think you know the mayhem of barbarossa is not anything like as obvious to those outside because those outside are also looking at the maps and you know what you're seeing is huge spearheads and huge gains you don't know that the 18th panzer division is being horribly attrited and has only got 22 panzers left you know you don't know that do you you what are you going to do i mean yeah the prospect of the soviet union collapsing to nazi germany is totally unthinkable the loss of singapore is really really bad news but it's not unthinkable the loss of the soviet union is so it's it's a it's a lesser of two evils and you know if germany had defeated the soviet union in the summer of 1941 just imagine what the consequences could have been for that and it's absolutely not clear by the end of august that the soviet union is remotely out of the woods despite the massive logistical challenges and attrition you know that is being faced by the germans but what is clear is that the longer the soviet union can stay in the fight the greater the chances of survival and barbarossa has always been a race but with britain and especially the u.s now sending aid and with aid on its way the need for speed from a German perspective is obviously greater than ever.

58:20And now it's the third week of August 1941, and a new phase of the campaign is about to get underway. And before any British or US shipments have arrived into the USSR, you know, this is such a crucial moment in the whole campaign on the Eastern Front. And it's all about a kickoff on the 25th of August 1941. 1941. Meanwhile, a new phase of Barbarossa has finally got underway, and not least with Army Group North's drive towards Leningrad.

58:55Al Murray: And I think that's probably a good place to dangle you all on tenterhooks, ladies and gentlemen. Should we come back for Leningrad in the next episode, Jim, or should we dangle it to people now? What do you think? It feels like a natural place to end the episode, doesn't it? So in our next episode, we will look at Army Group North's drive towards Leningrad. So dangled there is a delicious morsel for you. And the drive south. And the drive south. Because after all, it's all about the military genius. I went to Rastenberg. I tried to talk about it. I failed. So that's what we're going to see in our next episode.

59:30Al Murray: Thanks for listening, everybody. If you want to hear that immediately, become a We Have Ways of Making You Talk Patreon, where you can have stuff for the festival to listen to and all sorts of other enticing stuff that comes with membership. We'll see you very soon. Cheerio. Cheerio.

59:53Hello, Goalhanger History listeners. This is Marina Hyde and Richard Osman from The Rest is Entertainment. Hello, everybody. Every Thursday and Friday, we are reacting to the pop culture phenomenon that is the Celebrity Traitors. We'll be on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. And Maureen and I are digging into all the castles, twists and turns, giving our expert opinion on what should happen next. Now, which historical figure do we think would be the greatest traitor? It's tempting to think of an actual traitor. Yeah. A Guy Fawkes or a Kim Philby. But then all of those are traitors who got caught.

1:00:24Philby had a great run, though. He did have a great run. I think he could probably see off, you know, Joanne. Yes, maybe. and probably sort of where he ended up in Moscow is probably roughly like where the contestants have to spend every night as well. So maybe there's some sort of equivalence. So if you're watching Celebrity Traitors, don't forget to tune into our reaction episodes every Thursday and Friday night at 10pm. Find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.