Barbarossa In Ukraine: Trouble At The Top (Part 1)

0:02Al Murray: Thank you for listening to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. Sign up to our Patreon to receive bonus content, live streams and our weekly newsletter with money off books and museum visits as well. Plus early access to all live show tickets. That's patreon.com slash we have ways.

0:33On the strategic axis of Moscow, the Germans are unable to mount a major offensive operation in the near future, owing to their heavy losses, and they lack appreciable reserves to secure the right and left wings of Army Group Centre. On the Leningrad axis, it is impossible for the Germans to begin an operation to capture Leningrad and link up with the Finns without additional forces. the most dangerous and weakest sector of our line is the central front since the armies covering Uncha and Gomel are weak and badly equipped the Germans can use this present weak spot to strike into the flank and rear of the southwestern front and that of course was Marshal Georgi Zhukov writing to the Stavka Stalin, to all intents and purposes on the 29th of July, 1941

1:29Al Murray: Well Jim, thank you very much for ventriloquising him so ably there that was a very special moment Welcome everyone to We Have Ways to Make You Talk with me, Al Murray and James Holland, your second World War podcast of choice, and welcome back to our Barbarossa series, and we are looking at the road to Kiev, aren't we Jim? Let's just get this straight out of the way right now. We're calling it Kiev because that's what it was known as at the time. We are 100 % Kiev people currently, without a shadow of a doubt, I think it's fair to say, Jim. But at the time it was known as Kiev. So we're going to stick with that.

2:04Al Murray: After all, all the accounts say that, and it would be sort of an act of mental gymnastics to just change it endlessly. And actually, anachronistic. And we don't do anachronisms on this podcast, do we, Jim? Not at all. No, never. In any shape or form. In any shape or form. We like to stick to the original script. Exactly. Well, so we left our last Barbarossa series at the end of July, 1941. So we covered the best part of a month and a half, didn't we? In eight episodes, yes. In eight episodes. And there's so many moving parts. There's so many parts to the sort of huge, cogged machine that is this story.

2:43And can I just point out that the next four episodes are only going to get us to the next six weeks as well.

2:48Al Murray: Fine. That's all right. That's all right. I think people understand that's the nature of this particular beast. But the German effort at the end of July 41 is really, or their initial effort is running out of puff. And especially the effort of its army group centre that is really beginning to sort of run out of steam. And also, helpfully for the campaign, um uh the military genius um has decided to uh one and only stick his oar in mr adolf hitler it's the fuhrer himself exactly he's decided adolf hitler the fury furor of germany or has decided that um he needs to he needs to throw his weight about and it's it's interesting isn't it because definitely because this is what he's doing isn't it it's just like the halt order he's throwing his wait about is showing them who's boss, even at the cost of a coherent campaign.

3:48Al Murray: And what he wants is a southern thrust down into Ukraine, or the Ukraine as it was then, which would mean diverting Guderian's second panzer group and von Kluger's fourth army south, which obviously that completely emasculates OKH's plan, Oberkommander's here's plan for their drive on Moscow. And they're thinking political decapitation take the capital you know uh and the rest and the rest will follow and there's there's been this there's been this um since december the previous year 1940 there has been this sort of friction and prevarication which has resulted in prevarication about what actually to aim at what actually they're going to do with this campaign where the main thrust is going to be where the center of gravity is going to be but isn't it mad that they start this campaign they still haven't resolved that yeah for hitler it's it's it's leningrad it's ukraine then it's the caucasus don't worry about moscow that will sort itself out whereas the army are going get to moscow because that's like one single driver we can just do one big old thrust and that means we can have concentration of force and we can probably do that yeah then we'll decapitate the regime then we can go to leningrad then we can go to ukraine and go to the oilfields of caucasus i mean both ideas are mad but but but i would say that hitler's version is probably madder well i think i i think it's madder i think how do you decapitate the government then then you might not have needed to conquer the rest of it there would there could have been a treaty to sign and those parts of the soviet union is simply handed over right um you haven't got to fight for it all where do where does where does hitler go in the anchovies to vienna so go to vienna yeah why yeah exactly same reason that they want to go to moscow slightly different reception there though let's be honest now very different reception but it's the principle isn't it it's Go to the central point.

5:33Al Murray: He hasn't given in to what they regard as, Braukhish and Halder regard as military logic, as the strategic logic of going to Moscow. And so basically there's this colossal tension at the heart of the German decision-making. I mean, it just sounds like a truism, that doesn't it? It's a collapsed system that can't make any proper decisions except go. They can't make any decision beyond that. If you want to go to Leningrad and the Balkans and you then want to go to the Ukraine, why are you bothering with most of your forces in the centre? I don't know, Jim. No one knows. No one knows. That's what it comes down to.

6:08No one knows. I mean, what the hell's going on?

6:11Al Murray: I don't know. And by the way, spoiler alert for this series, at the end of it, we'll discover that Hitler's had another change of heart. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I think it must have been so difficult being the likes of Brackage and Howdah because you know that what he's going to do at some point is pull the rug from under you, change his mind. You then invest in the change of mind and then he changes his mind again. It's just like the sheer nightmare of organising everything. But think how difficult it is being the Fuhrer having to deal with all these Prussian imbeciles. You know what?

6:47Al Murray: Now I'm looking at my What Would Hitler Do wristband and I'm thinking I would change my mind, surely. Anyway, so, but we started with Zhukov. So this is the sort of our direction of travel now, isn't it? We're going to see what Zhukov's up to, aren't we, Jim? Yes. And it's fair to say that Zhukov's got a fairly clear picture of what is going on. And this is from a situation report that he gives Stalin on the 31st of July, 1941. And at this time, Zhukov is still chief of the Red Army's general staff at this point. So present at the meeting was obviously Stalin, but also Lev Meklis, the Deputy People's Commissar of Defence, who's paranoid, suspicious, notorious for the role he played in The Purges and basically doesn't like anyone and is very keen on shooting people.

7:35And when Zhukov delivers this sit-rep, Meklis immediately asks, how have you come by this information, Comrade? You can just imagine it, can't you? So Zhukov says, well, I'm just responding to the enemy dispositions that we know are there, which suggest certain things, comrade. And the Central Front has only been created on the 23rd of July under Colonel General F.I. Kuznetsov and contains the battered 13th and 21st Armies, which were the ones that were ordered to protect Gomel and the Soz River section to the south of Army Group Centre's front. So what Zhukov is worried about is the southern part of the central front, i.e.

8:22the bit immediately north of Kiev. So Zhukov then recommends reinforcing Kuznetsov with three armies, a whole load more artillery, and suggests that General N.F. Vatutin, who is currently Chief of Staff of the North Western Front, takes command of these three armies. But Stalin's really sceptical because he's worried about weakening the approaches to Moscow. But Zhukov assures him that it won't do this. What he needs to do is bring nine fully equipped divisions from the Far East, which can be a backstop for Moscow. And Stalin goes, yeah, but then what about Japan? And Zhukov goes, yeah, but we've signed a non-aggression pact with Japan.

9:02It's fine. But of course, when your whole life and everything you do is riven with suspicion and paranoia about absolutely everything, It makes him very hard to make any kind of rational decisions.

9:14Al Murray: But it's not just paranoia, Jim. He's judging them by his own standards. He'd stab them in the back if he had the opportunity. This is often the thing with Stalin. He's only projecting his own standards of behaviour onto other people, isn't he? Yes, he is. That's absolutely right. That's a very good point. He's thinking, well, if I were in the Japanese situation, I'd go for it. You know, that's not paranoia. That's him seeing the world. Treatie Shmitty. Exactly, Tritishmiti, because what's he been doing? He's been hoovering up bits of Eastern Europe. Anyway, so he's just judging people by his own debased standards.

9:50Yeah, so Zhukov recommends pulling the Southeastern front back behind the Dnieper River, which means abandoning Kiev, which Stalin says, you know, what about Kiev in that case? And Zhukov goes, well, we'll have to give it up. And at this point, Stalin blows a gasket. he says you know kiev is to be treated like leningrad and moscow has to be held at any cost but you know zikov is is one of the very few people who can stand up to stalin but obviously by doing so you know you're playing you're sort of dicing with the devil a little bit aren't you so zikov says to him if you think the chief of the general staff talks nonsense then i request you relieve me of my post and send me to the front and stalin goes right fine resign Resignation accepted.

10:38Ha! I'll learn you to call my bluff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So after that, Zhukov is replaced with Marshal Boris Sheposhnikov, who's much more kind of Von Braukic-like in his amenability, I would say. And Zhukov heads off to command the reserve front instead.

10:53Al Murray: I mean, if you're the new bloke coming in, you probably think, I will do as I'm told to start with. Because after all, look what happened to the last guy. I mean, everyone's seen The Purges too, haven't they? That's the thing. Everyone knows exactly what he's capable of. Zhukov's right. isn't he you know um about what they need to do they need to shorten their lines you know and and use a river as a shoulder and all that sort of stuff um rather than get caught with their trousers down yeah straighten the lines have a big natural barrier all that yep yep yep yep yep yep you know kiev is really really out on a limb and that and that's the problem what you want to do is just straighten the front so it's a nice easy kind of north south kind of thing but the reserve front then goes up to kind of behind Yelniar.

11:32Do you remember Yelniar from our first series or second series rather which was that bulge that Guderian goes after after they've taken Smolenski, hot foots it to Yelniar and takes this little the sort of salient which then becomes this incredibly brutal part of the fighting and where the Red Army can constantly sort of counter-attacking and putting huge amounts of pressure on central front, which is problematic when you then want to divert some of the forces that are defending that. And you're saying, actually, no, I want them to head south after all.

12:08Al Murray: I mean, it's interesting that both sides at this point are basically in a sort of decision-making state of paralysis, aren't they? Neither side is thinking straight. Even though the Germans have the initiative, Neither side can think straight for their own benefit at all. And that's because the bloke at the top doesn't want you to think straight. He wants you to bring in the good news. Interesting, two sclerotic systems facing off against each other. What we now see is this German change in what they're going to do. So the last series, we ended with a massive, gigantic Soviet counterattack around Jelnya and the Central Front.

12:45Al Murray: And on the 30th of July, Hitler had even issued war directive number 34. Sing along if you know it. The appearance of a large enemy forces before the front, the supply situation, and the necessity of giving the second and third Panzergruppe's 10 days to restore the formations, has forced a temporary postponement of the fulfilment of the aims and missions set forth in Directive No. 33. Army Group Centre will go on the defensive. What? Exactly. Going on the defensive? What are you on about? It's very strange. And this is, given that the big plan was it would all be done in three months. And this is to do with Hitler wanting to rearrange his chess pieces, isn't it?

13:26Al Murray: He's looking at his arrows on his map and he wants to rearrange things without any real grip on what that might mean for the people having to do it. He's all in with sending a third Panzer Group north towards Leningrad, second Panzer Group with second army south the encirclement of Kiev. I mean, this is amazing, isn't it? Up to the 31st of July, in the first six weeks of this campaign, Germany has sustained 213 ,301 casualties in those six weeks and only received 47 ,000 replacements, fresh troops. The Soviets, though. Yes, but who is making up the vast majority of those 213 ,301 ,000 troops? But the good people, the people on this pointy bit.

14:07Al Murray: So it's the point of the spear. Point of the spear and the people we were following in previous accounts. You know, in previous episodes, we saw how they were retreated and whittled down. The Red Army, though, hold on to your hats, everybody. If you think 213 ,301 casualties is bad, right? The Red Army, in the meantime, has lost 2 ,129 ,677 people. But they have a bigger supply of manpower to draw on and are able to, at least, if not replace people, flush new formations through. Soviet armies are a bit smaller than German armies. There's still loads more of them. There's just tons more of them, aren't there?

14:45Yes, and they're not necessarily completely irrecoverable losses either because some of them are now parsons in forests and quite a large part of them. And also the other thing about the 213 ,301 casualties that Germans have sustained, about 25 % of those are officers who, as we know, take about three years to become an officer because you need to go in the ranks first, then you need to prove yourself, then you need to become a Farnanjunker, then you need to create schooler, then you become an officer. and then you probably get killed on tuesday you know that's the problem but yeah halder says we have underestimated the russian colossus its divisions are not armed and equipped to our standards and their tactical leadership is poor but there they are dot dot dot and the dot dot

15:30Al Murray: dots are his by the way but there they are that's very strong isn't it there's there's an awful lot to read into that isn't there but there they are yes i mean you know euphemism of your choice we've bitten off more than we can chew we can't compete against this we're stuffed um winter's coming winter's coming and we're we've already we've lost all our best people right so Heinz Guderian in the in the meantime he's furious Guderian's furious about this plan to divert panzer groups his panzer group south doesn't like it then he then he goes to see the Fuhrer to argue his case and lo and behold has his head turned has a complete um change of heart how is he able to to do this well obviously hitler's always he's weirdly persuasive he gets you if you're attacked if he looks you in the eye and and you know holds you with his trembling hand and all that sort of thing he can talk you into all sorts of things can't he glass of halitosis yeah yeah exactly yeah but the halitosis of a genius jim um it's basically

16:30Al Murray: oh his breath's terrible but he's very clever um that that that basically it talks up the riches of the Ukraine downplays the importance of Moscow and says, you know, we've got a great victory coming with the encirclement of Kiev. And obviously, Guderian wants that on his battle honours. You know, and you'll be the hero of that, Hans. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That'll be on his standard when he retires to his schloss. He'd end up with an estate owning one quarter of Poland or something, wouldn't he? That's the big idea. And he retires to his enormous schloss and his battle honours would be Kiev.

17:02Al Murray: It's all that. The turning point for me in the war was the meeting I had with the Führer. Yeah. You know, you can just imagine it. You can just imagine it. In his reminiscences. Yeah. But the point is, actually, he also thinks this might be an easier gig than cracking on, bashing on Jelnya. Hitler promises him that his Panzer Group will be kept intact, that he won't have to loan units or lose units to others. He returns from his trip to see the Führer, like having been talked into what Hitler wants, but also being allowed to hang on to what he wants to do. And the problem is this, though, is he's extremely unpopular.

17:41Al Murray: No one likes him. He's the sort of mill wall of German generals, isn't he? No one likes him and he doesn't care. The rest of Army Group C treat him as a complete pariah. So after going to see the Führer at Rastenburg, he flies back to get ready for the operation. only hours after he'd insisted it would be impossible. Imagine being on his staff. They're like, oh God, Hitler's got to the boss. Oh no. And this means that Halder's strategy going for Moscow is over. And the one that he's placed all his sort of effort and weight into. And von Bock has also, he wanted, he believed in it also. Yes, von Bock is the, remember, he's the commander in chief of Army Group Centre.

18:19And von Kluger is the commander of 4th Army. and 4th Army is originally earmarked for this Operation South. And Kluger's really happy about it because he hates von Bock and is just desperate to get out of von Bock's clutches. But actually it isn't the 4th Army that goes south. It's the 2nd Army that goes south. Weix is the 2nd Army that ends up going south rather than von Kluger. So von Kluger is stuck with von Bock. But everyone hates Guderian is the truth of it.

18:48Al Murray: But von Bock says, I'm really not happy about it because the objective to which I devoted all my thoughts, the destruction of the main strength of the enemy army, has been dropped. So he's thinking, well, you know, I'm wasting my time here. You are so von Bock from now on. You've done that, brilliant. Oh, yeah, don't you worry. And the bad news, obviously, for the Wehrmacht generals on another level, is that Hitler has now actually taken command of the campaign. And he's asserted himself. He's now actually directing strategy. and obviously he's reaffirmed his genius in his own eyes and it's won over the Prussian, those Prussian snobby Prussian bastards who think he's an Austrian peasant.

19:27Al Murray: This bakes into everything from now on that Hitler actually is in charge. The army can't really do what it wants to do. For all this though, the fighting on the central and northern fronts is not over. Not remotely. Yeah, not remotely. Of course not. It's not like things are on hold and he's got to carry on with fewer mechanised troops at his disposal because they've robbed Peter to pay Paul, which is the only way the Germans can actually reorganise. Well, should we take a break and then we get back to Army Group C's ongoing battle? Why not? I think that's a great idea.

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21:47Al Murray: Welcome back to We Have Ways of Making You Talk. With me, I'm Aaron James. I'm, you know, Jim, during the break, I went to talk to Hitler. I've changed my mind about everything. I don't know about you.

21:58I'm very much in von Bock's camp. I mean, I'm in Team Bock.

22:04Al Murray: Well, so we come to the second half of August, Jim. Yes, it's now second half of August, 1941, and Bock's 9th Army, so he's got 4th Army, 9th Army, he did have Panzer Group 2. He's got Panzerkorps Wettlinghoff still, but that's it. Schweffenberg and Lemelson are in the southern thrust, And Guderian, of course, is not happy about that either, because what about von Vetinghoff? But anyway, he's now got the 9th Army under General Adolf Strauss, and he's up against Timoshenko's western front. At Dugovshina, Timoshenko is mounting a major counterattack, and on the 17th of August, succeeds in forcing the Germans back across the Vop River, pushing them 10 kilometres into the German positions.

22:49and the German 161st Infantry Division, who we all know are not quite up to scratch compared to the Panzer Divisions, is absolutely hammered. Further north from that, the Red Army also sees his crossings over the western Davina River. And then on the 20th of August, Strauss, citing ill health, hands over command of Knight's Army to Hout, who is also commanding Panzer Group 3, which has now been redirected north. So it's a bit of an old mess, isn't it? You know, you're spitting up your commands, you've got to change your commands, No one knows what's going on. And this all comes at the same moment that Hoth is trying to rest and refit his panzer forces, because he's now been directed north and he needs to refit before he's going north towards Leningrad and Veliki-Loki.

23:32Only at this point now is the 7th Panzer Division, who, you know, those who are keen will remember, was Rommel's division in the Battle for France. And this runs into two fortified Russian lines and is stopped in its tracks with the loss of another 30 panzers, which might not sound so many, but is when you're already fairly attrited. And you may remember also that the 7th Panzer Division was the most replete division of tanks. It had, I think, something like 220, 230 panzers in 7th Panzer Division, which is much more than most of them did. But anyway, it's got half that now. And suddenly the commanders in Army Group C are having to dramatically adjust to kind of totally new operational constraints.

24:15to the point is they're supposed to be thrusting forward, aren't they? I mean, they all thought they were heading to Moscow. Now they've been told they're on the defensive, but even being on the defensive is proving a problem. And as we all know, the German way of being on the defensive is to counterattack. So it's not really on the defensive at all. It's being on the offensive, but in a smaller offensive-defensive way. So, you know, which is why 7th Panzer are being on the defensive by counterattacking. They're having an absolute shocker because they're suddenly having there's completely new operational constraints because they're so far east now you know they're kind of sort of 500 kilometers in with very very limited supply lines and this is the this is the problem it's getting the trucks up when you still got loads and loads of russians lurking around in woods you've got variable weather and you've just got the sheer problems of you know 500 kilometers in is a thousand kilometers round trip isn't it but that in itself is difficult but with the with

25:17Al Murray: with as you say uh marauding bands of russians and you know we come back to the fact that there is no unitary um uh kind of german kit all the different lorries all the different vans all the different vehicles so you can't if one breaks down you don't send it to the universal workshop where they just swap out the parts in the you know which would be the soviet or american style the journeys have made more difficult twice over and obviously you're losing officers like mad there's a German battalion commander who notes in the last few days our battalion lost 5 officers 15 non-comps and 106 privates combat efficiency is dropping fast, we need men and officers our repairmen have no spares many of our vehicles are out of action either from hits or lack of spares we have to replace cylinders There's a shortage of fuel is acute.

26:09Al Murray: There are the problems, the problems of spares, you know. And a few days later, he's writing, due to the heavy losses of the last few days, the battalion is unable to act efficiently. Battle worthiness is tragic. Personal control by the officers is in a precarious state. Tension has reached a point where the battalion can be made to attack only by coercion, that is, force of arms. That's not good, is it? That's quite a shit show, isn't it? Let's be honest now. And they're not really going forward. And so in the month since the fall of Smolensk, the city of Smolensk, which is on the 15th of July, the front has shifted less than 100 miles.

26:46Might sound OK, but it isn't compared to where they've got to go and where they've got to be. You know, for the past few weeks, it's been largely positional. You know, it's no longer mobile warfare. Yeah. At the same time, Zhukov is now in charge of the reserve front, which is not in reserve whatsoever. It's now battering against the Germans in the Yelnia salient. You know, so this is incredibly attritional. It's very costly in lives. And the Germans can only hold Jelnya by constantly rotating infantry as they get hammered in turn. So that's not good because, again, you know, these are amongst your best troops, your best infantry you've got, and they're getting hammered.

27:23So there's big arguments now over whether to abandon the salient entirely. But, of course, you know, Germans aren't allowed to withdraw. You couldn't possibly grant the Red Army a victory. And what would such a retreat do for German morale? So right now, this is still out of the question. But because it's out of the question, these troops are continuing to get absolutely hammered. And meanwhile, some of Box Panzers are still in the picture. You know, they should have been husbanded to the rear for rest and refit before starting this new drive north and south. But in reality, the demands of the fighting and the shortage of the infantry, who are still slowly plodding behind for the most part, mean they're still very much in the fighting.

28:02and, of course, getting more and more attrited with every passing day. And even worse, Hitler is demanding that the northern flank of Army Group South be relieved, where Sixth Army also now is fighting a series of desperate defensive battles. So they're just reaching their culmination point, is the truth of it. And for those who can't remember what the culmination point is, it's the point where you can no longer operate to the way you want to because your supply lines are so stretched. And the whole USP of the German army is Blitzkrieg, right? It's Bavaganskrieg. It's this rapid war and battle of high operations.

28:36It's moving swiftly. It's going bam, bam, bam, bam, bam before your enemy can organise yourself.

28:41Al Murray: The moment the enemy can organise itself, you're stuffed. They failed to overpower the Red Army and they've also decided against trying to decapitate the government. So it's neither one thing nor the other, is it, this campaign now? It's neither one thing nor the other. And it's really important to just stress at this point that the whole point of this new for us North and South is this is going to happen on a launch day, which is going to be the 25th of August, 1941. That date, a few weeks, you know, a couple of weeks down the line is so that these panzer units can pause, refit, get fresh, get ready to go and then go bam again, you know, we're full force.

29:19But they're not doing that because they're still in the fight all the time. There's constant attrition, constant fighting as they're just not, they're partly holding the line and partly still trying to kind of sort of push south in the case of von Schreppenberg's 24 Panzer Corps.

29:35Al Murray: They are doing that. They're succeeding in doing that. They've taken Roslavi and then Krasnopoli on the 9th of August, which is the bit that Zhukov was worried about when he was warning Stalin about this vulnerable flank. Soviets are now dying harder because Schreppenberg's guys are taking fewer prisoners of war. 24 Panzer Corps has also been in action since D-Day of Barbarossa. What that does, you know, no matter how many casualties you're taking, how tired everyone is, how many clutches have been stripped and gearboxes have been banjaxed and suspensions have been cracked, you know, and road accidents, whatever.

30:10Al Murray: Just that. And also the weather's got to vote as ever. And it's raining, heavy rain, which is slowing the Panzers in the mire because after all, we aren't talking about metalled roads everywhere. And this obviously, the harder they're going, the higher the fuel consumption. Everything's conspiring against them. And 24 Panzer Corps is actually using 75 % more fuel than normal. And those who remember our first episode talking about the build up to this, the projection is there isn't the fuel to do this. They haven't got the fuel to do it in the first place. And if they're burning through the fuel faster, what are they going to do?

30:46Al Murray: And you can see maybe how that informs the swing to the Caucasus to get oil in someone who's looking for an immediate solution later on in the campaign against the Soviet Union. But this is the situation they're in. And obviously, the attrition in itself, you add in the fighting. By the 11th of August, 4th Panzer Division has 64 tanks left from the 169 it set off with. And only 33 of those are Mark 3s and 4s. Because after all, the Mark 3s and 4s will have been going forward and doing hard fighting. Because they're a more powerful vehicle. Exactly. And who needs Mark 1s and Mark 2s in this day and age?

31:19But despite this, 24th Panzer Corps still keeps going forward. albeit at a much slower pace. And, you know, it's heading southwards from the main thrust of Army Group Centre and around the bulge of Jelnia, where the absolute central thrust of Army Group Centre is. And they take out the small pocket at Kritschev on the 13th of August, taking 16 ,000 POWs, 76 guns and 15 tanks. And orders now reach von Treppenberg from the OKH, the Oberkommando de Gira, the commander of the army, that he push on and take Gommel and Cherchersk. And on the 14th of August, 4th Panzer Division War Diary notes, battles on 13th and 14th August, very costly, also immaterial.

32:07There was little benefit in the fighting because the enemy mass had already evacuated. Trucks in bad condition, men tired, division increasingly worn out. And it makes no difference, of course, because, you know, 24th Panzer Corps is ordered to continue to push on, you know, the comparatively small victories masking very much the increasing wear, tear and exhaustion. But we should look at what the Soviets are up to, shouldn't we?

32:36Al Murray: Yes, I think we should. And well, that's where, after all, that's where we started with Zhukov's assessment. And, you know, rightly, he's worried about this Kiev problem on the 14th of August. But he's no longer there. So let's see how well the Stavka can figure things out without Zhukov's help. The Stavka have created the Bryansk Front under Lieutenant General A.I. Eremenko. And it's designed to make sure there's a continuous front between Zhukov's reserve front and the central front. But Stalin has said to Eremenko that his job actually is primarily to protect the southern approaches to Moscow.

33:10Al Murray: Stalin thinks that actually the Germans are going to drive on Moscow and that, you know, it might look like something else is happening. But this is what's going on. And Stalin explains, Jim. We are laying our major responsibility on the Briansk Front. Your main target to cover the Moscow strategic area from the southwest and not to permit Guderian's tank group to break through the Briansk Front to Moscow. I'm terrified, though. It's like I'm in the presence of the man of steel himself. God, blimey. The thing is, though, so this means he's continuing to ignore the threat to the south and to Kiev, which is what Zhukov had anticipated.

33:49Al Murray: And on the 18th of August, he writes again to the Stavka, even though his advice isn't welcome. And he says, The enemy, persuaded of the concentration of powerful concentrations of our forces on the road to Moscow, having on his flanks the central front and the Valky-Luky grouping of our forces, has temporarily given up the blow at Moscow and turning to active defence against the Western and Reserve Fronts, has now thrown all his mobile shock and tank units against the Central, Southwestern and Southern Fronts. Possible enemy intentions to destroy the Central Front and breaking into the area Sharnigov-Gonotop-Breluki with a blow from the rear, thereby to destroy the Southwestern Front.

34:34He knows exactly what's going on, doesn't he? He's got that. He can read it. He can read the runes.

34:39Al Murray: But however, Uncle Joe says, don't you worry your pretty little head. Everything's under control. The Bryansk Front has been created to deal with this and other measures are in hand, whatever that meant. And he certainly didn't let anyone know whatever that meant. Didn't say. In other words, he's basically, he's just flicked away Zhukov's warning. It's dismissed out of hand. And this means the central front is perilously weak. The Bryansk front is fixated on the idea of a southern approach to Moscow. And the southwestern front is now defending a giant triangular salient. And salients are bad. Everyone knows this.

35:14Al Murray: Stretching pretty much all the way to Kiev with a point of a triangle, only a short distance from the city. So this means the southwest front defending the northern and the southern line of this triangle. You can see where this is going to go, can't you? Yeah. So Hitler has a plan for what to do next. Well, actually, I mean, as it happens, he's now got it right. That's the annoying thing. He's right, Hitler. Now, because the Soviets, the Red Army is reinforcing the central front because they still think it's going to be Moscow, when actually it's not. Well, I mean, this is Stalin conspiring to help him, which is very often Hitler's big military moments come when the other side misread him.

35:56Al Murray: 24 Panzer Corps are ordered to continue south, but also Lemonson's 47th Panzer Corps and von Weich's Second Army. Not von Kluger's Fourth Army. Yeah, yeah. And Second Army and Second Panzer Group are charging south, while von Kleist's First Panzer Group will thrust north after crossing the Dnieper to the south of Kiev. So this would allow First Panzer Group to operate behind the bulk of the Red Army forces in and around Kiev. And obviously, they're going to meet less resistance and they're going to encircle them. They're going to wrap them up, roll them up. And obviously, we touched on the logistical problems.

36:27Al Murray: This is the real issue the Germans have to deal with. Their daily tonnage, current daily tonnage is barely sufficient. And it's only going to get worse once they're across the Dnieper because, you know, river crossings are difficult. You know, we've a bunch of generals here and Guderian in particular, you know, who says logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare. He calls it that, which is very foolish of him. This is the thing they all keep forgetting because they've done so well in France. where the logistical situation favoured them. Short lines, petrol stations, metal roads, and so on.

37:06Al Murray: Decent bridges and all that sort of stuff. But also, they'd done realistic planning beforehand. They'd organised those fuel dumps. They'd organised those ammunition dumps. They'd got it all worked out. Everyone knew it down to a T. They've tried to do that this time. Everyone's gone, no, no, no, no, no, because this is not going to work, so we've just got to make it work. and they've just ignored all the warning signs of the huge logistical challenges of going into the Soviet Union. You know, what is amazing about this is that the supply of the front is generally considered subordinate to the strategic and tactical considerations.

37:44So we'll agree what we're going to do and then just sort it out.

37:47Al Murray: Rather than what are we capable of? So let's try and do that. It's what do we want to do? And, you know, we've mentioned this in the past, but you see this, you know, when we did our Alamein series, this was a problem that Rommel had. It was exactly the same thing. Don't bore me with kind of tedious logistical stuff. Let's just get on with it and charge to Alexandria. You know, and you become a cropper. And Holder says, according to our opinion, the material has to serve the spiritual. Accordingly, our quartermaster service may never hamper the operational concept. Oh, dear. It is going to hamper the operational.

38:24And he knows this is bullshit because he planned Case Yellow, the invasion of France in the Low Countries, and he oversaw meticulous planning. And France worked because of the operational brilliance, overseen by him at the very top of the planning process. So this is just total, total nonsense.

38:44Al Murray: Well, so they push on. 24 Panzer Corps pushes on. They're just going to do it, aren't they? Fourth Panzer Division takes a back seat. So Schweppenvog's vanguard south, they go and they're led by General Walter Models, 3rd Panzer Division. Wasn't he voted the best German general in our competition last year? I think he was, yeah, in our definitive no arguments competition. And this is bad roads, terrible attrition, but the enemy basically falling apart because the central front is overstretched and it's beginning to collapse in on itself. And again, logistics, because they're moving so fast, the Germans have a problem with their tail keeping up.

39:23Al Murray: On the 18th of August, 3rd Panzer's war diary reads, the forward advances, the division is so fast, so the support columns are not able to keep peace. So they're like, the staff office is completely freaking out. And they actually have to stop because they run out of fuel on the 19th of August, the following day. Going again on the 20th, 4th Panzer Division is now down to 44 tanks running. Of those, only 20 are Mark III's and only six are Mark IV's. 24 Panzer Corps is also done, really. So it's left a second army to take Gommel on the 19th of August after a battle that had begun at the end of July.

40:02Al Murray: And they scoop up 50 ,000 prisoners of war, but it's at great cost, all of this. They're basically, yes, the Soviets are capitulating and throwing in the towel, but the German armies are all being run into the ground. They're being destroyed in the process. Just to put this, you know, we've been doing this series on the Sherwood Rangers. You know, one squadron in the Sherwood Rangers, which is one regiment of three in an armoured brigade, so not even a division, is 19 tanks. So basically what's left in Panzer IV is effectively one and a half squadrons of Mark III's and Mark IV's. That sounds like they're buggered.

40:38Al Murray: Now we're kind of a leaky-lucky, which our producer JR suggested sounded like a Greek appetiser. Appetiser. Rolled anchovies or something in yoghurt. Yes, I was saying it's more like a Marvel film, but JR's Greek salad, I think, is closer to the mark. Anyway, it is neither of those things. No. It is a town due south of Leningrad. So anyway, so Army Group C is still striking north as well, and it's important to mention that. So von Bock's forces are now effectively kind of sort of branching out. You've got the main thrust going into the centre, but you've also got this sort of, you know, heading southwards towards Ukraine.

41:18You've got them heading northwards towards Leningrad. And so operating in these three directions. And while 7th Panzer Division has got absolutely nowhere with its counterattack, in the northern centre of the front, General Hout, who is the Panzer Group 3 commander and now the 9th Army commander as well, has sent another force to retake Veliki Luki, which you may remember, for those who listened to our second part of the series on Barbarossa, had been an objective in July after the fall of Smolensk. But the Germans had taken it and then been kicked out again. But now 57 Panzer Corps and 40th Army Corps, which is infantry-based, launch a new assault on the 22nd of August and they retake the city.

42:04But large numbers of Soviet troops once again slip through the German encirclement. On the 25th of August, Halder notes,

42:25All kind of well and good on one level, but you have to ask yourself, what is actually being achieved? you know it's great you've got another town but how does that actually help you stem the flow on the central front and how does that help you with your frost south and is that really helping you take Leningrad which you're about to decide you don't need to take anywhere you're just going to besiege it so you know the advance does go on and it ends on the 29th of August with the catcher of Torapets which is 70 kilometers east of Veliki Luiki and is just another finger-like thrust, you know, a prong, that simply lets German spearheads charge off and become very vulnerable to attacks from their flanks and rear from Soviet troops which have escaped the encirclement, which then results in the spearhead being even more reduced.

43:19But even more importantly, results in those supply columns being even more reduced, which then makes the spearheads even more effective because it can't be effectively resupplied so what what this all amounts to is it's clear that there's absolutely no chance now whatsoever fulfilling the barbarossa remit the

43:39Al Murray: objective making meeting the objective yeah but but but it's too late you've committed what do you do you're in yeah yeah maybe something to make some terrible howler to help um because they have they've been doing that so far i mean obviously this is the this is the this is the thing that Barbarossa really benefits from, you know, its greatest windfall is Stalin's inability to assess what's going on, his strategic misassessment. And he still thinks that these thrusts to the south and northeast are diversions to distract him from, you know, the Smolensk to Moscow axis, that what the Germans, they've got something up their sleeve, they're going to pull a rabbit from the hat and go for Moscow.

44:17Al Murray: And this means all of the Red Army's Western uh briansk and reserve fronts are all looking in the wrong direction for the wrong thing anticipated the wrong operations while the the germans have now actually made the ukraine and their focus which means kripenos's southwestern front is is in you know in the voice here in the foreign line but of course yeah hitler doesn't know this he doesn't know that this is what stalin's thinking this is just luck this is the luck of the the luck of the devil here isn't Yeah, so by the end of August, the argument that Hitler's had with his generals that has caused doubts in his own mind has been dispelled.

44:58And it's really interesting because Niklas von Willow is Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant and he keeps his diary, which was published after the war. And it's a very interesting kind of record of Hitler's thinking at this time. And he notes in his diary.

45:12Al Murray: He was of the opinion that during September, Stalin would be forced to boast as a fund with his last reserves. If this could be bled right, the hard resistance would cease and our units would only have to march onwards. There's a clear picture of Hitler's thinking, which is just all crazy. It's arrows and coloured pencil marks, isn't it? It's the sort of fantasy of drawing on a China graph, isn't it? Without knowing what any of it means. There's holes in supply lines. The spearheads are drawn on a map. There's absolutely no understanding of what they amount to. He's counting divisions as fresh, isn't he?

45:45Al Murray: When he thinks of division, he thinks it's this many men and this much stuff and this effective, rather than basically at this point, some headquarters that are still managing to keep going and put up the appearance of being a coherent formation. I mean, you know, combat effectiveness is what? After you lost a third of your strength, you're no longer combat effective. All of these formations we've been talking about are well beneath their proper combat effectiveness. It's basically a series of battle groups and brigades, isn't it? And, you know, while Bock and Holder are lamenting the change of strategy, commanders lower down the chain are clearly realising they've bitten up way more than they can chew.

46:19And on the 21st of August, General Gotthard Heinrichi, remember him from the Battle of Berlin a few years down the line in 1945? At this point, he's commanding 43 Corps, and he believes the Red Army can't be broken even if they did capture Moscow. A change will only come with the internal collapse of the Russian system. And Heinrich is fairly gloomy as he writes to his wife, I am convinced that this will last a while longer. It will not be ended this year. And then General Ritter von Tome. Remember him from the Deutsche Afrika Korps and surrendering at Alamein? At this point, he's not in North Africa.

46:59He's commanding 17 Panzer Division. And he's also increasingly pessimistic, as he records later after being taken POW at the aforementioned Alamein. And he notes.

47:11Al Murray: When the war had not been brought to a successful conclusion by the autumn of 1941, I used every opportunity at conferences to make known my opinion that the whole situation for Germany was becoming extremely critical since time was against us. And America would certainly come in on the other side. They all know, don't they? Yeah, he's bang on, isn't he? They all know. And the rank and file are starting to feel a bit gloomy too. So Heinz Kukla, who's a soldier, writes in his diary on the 26th of August, No one is optimistic. Only each person's raw courage can prepare them for what is coming in which deceitful ideas, false idols and fallacious wisdom will collapse and must collapse.

47:54This generation will no longer experience peace, quiet or contentment. warfare will remain for many years they're all absolutely bang on in their analysis what do you

48:06Al Murray: do well what you do you carry on jim if you're a military genius like the fuhrer what should you do well of course what you should do is put the brakes on things right shorten your lines reorganize bug out consolidate your gains dig in for the winter line up against the rivers make sure you don't lose that yeah go absolutely ballistic with your industry industry, work out a proper plan, learn the lessons from what you've already experienced, make sure that you're operationally much better and re-attack again in the spring. That's what you do. That's not going to happen, is it? Because after all, because of this confluence of Soviet decision-making and Hitler's decision, that they actually are helping one another, or that the Soviets...

48:49Al Murray: Hitler's convinced it's all working, isn't he? And that he's a genius because of Stalin's error. So he's never going to stop, is he? He's going to think this is how it's going to go. My intuition is perfect. And obviously, from a German point of view, the halt order is a catastrophe in May of 1940. And they need one now, but it's just never going to happen. The attack due south is due to be launched the 25th of August. But there's still just all the other fighting going on everywhere as well. So von Schweppenberg's 24 Panzer Corps, they never stop fighting. And the fighting on the central front is enormous.

49:24Al Murray: Army Group C, I mean, is still facing the full weight of the Red Army. And on the 22nd of August, there's a report written in Army Group C that says the armoured units are so better weary and there can be no question of a mass operative mission until they have been completely replenished and repaired. And then at 24 Panzer Corps, what does the diary say, Jim? Every panzer is only provisionally fit for service. As a result of oil shortages, no oil changes can be undertaken if the panzers are committed to a large-scale operation in their current condition, then the total loss of most must be expected.

50:00The total loss? What? You know, this is the 22nd of August. In three days' time, you're supposed to be launching your new offensive south and you're supposed to be the spearhead. What the heck, people? I mean, it's just bonkers. Completely mad. You know, and on the 22nd of August, Al, Modell's 3rd Panzer Division has 60 tanks left from 198. and Langerman Erlenkamp's 4th Panzer Division has only 64 running. 17 Panzer is down to 74 from 180 and 18 Panzer to 114 from 200. Yeah. And as if that's not enough, things are still going on on the northern front. Yeah. What? Yeah.

50:37Al Murray: We mustn't forget them. You know, this is from Manstein and co. In Estonia, the situation where an Estonian commando called ERNA, who've been trained in Helsinki, they've parachuted behind lines in July to help the Germans, Estonian nationalists. And the Germans make great progress as a result. And on the 13th of July, 1941, the motorised corps reaches the Luger River, 96 kilometres south of Leningrad. And on the same day, 8th Panzer Division from Panzer Group 4 reaches Solway, about 40 kilometres from Lake Ilman. So they're really making great gains, zooming in on Leningrad. Eight Panzer then face a counterattack from Lieutenant General Nikolai Vatutin, who's the chief staff of the Red Army Northwest Front.

51:23Al Murray: And they're cut off. Eight Panzer are cut off from their neighbours, who are the SS Turtenkopf. They're trapped in there for four days and they have to be rescued after a major redirection of German forces, which basically means the advance is put on hold in order to rescue Eight Panzer. And they're not, they aren't destroyed, but it just means that actually the Red Army has slowed them down. And, you know, time and attrition and, you know, the other thing is the Soviets are learning as they go, aren't they? They're shaking down and figuring out how to fight at the same time. And the Germans are giving them all this opportunity to learn how, aren't they?

51:58Well, they're not getting much from General Clement Voroshilov, who's one of the most famous Red Army commanders this time, but is frankly a bit hopeless. He's commanding the Northwestern Strategic Direction. So this is yet another cumbersome Soviet command. So you have armies, then you have fronts, which is an army group, and then you have a group of army groups, which is a direction. I mean, it speaks of the scale, of course, but it also makes it quite cumbersome, I would argue. And so in the Northwestern Strategic Direction, you've got incorporated the northwestern and northern fronts and the Baltic and northern fleets.

52:40So this makes Voroshilev the senior military commander in the north. And Voroshilev is really pretty incompetent. He's the guy who commanded the Red Army troops in Finland. He also signed off on the Katyn massacre, so he's not a very nice man either. He also famously shouted at Stalin and smashed a plate of food in front of him when he had a hissy fit. He blew a gasket. and incredibly though rather than being sacked or shot he was made commander of the northwestern strategic direction instead and this is large because he's well known and bizarrely popular but anyway he now reinforces the Luger river position which is is to the south of Leningrad but the Baltic states what this means is that they're now almost entirely in German hands although Tallinn is still holding out von Lieb who is the commander of army army group north now directs his troops all out towards Leningrad.

53:34So this is the northern thrust of Hitler's directive. And you remember in Fuhrer Directive number 33, he wants this to be a major emphasis. And on the 8th of August, von Lieb is ordered to encircle the city and then link up with the Finns on the other side of the Gulf of Finland. The idea is to sort of sweep around the south of it and kind of encircle it and then besiege it. Stavka is expecting this. So in turn, orders Voroshilev to mount another counter-frust to destroy the German forces to the south of Leningrad around the city of Sodzy. It's an attack that fails, but once again, it's a counter-attack that has to be dealt with, blunts German ambitions, reduces their speed, holds them up.

54:16An army group north, like the attack in the south, is due to be renewed on the 25th of August. And ahead of this tack, they do manage to cut the crucial Leningrad-Moscow railway line, which, of course, is a major blow for the Red Army. It means that Leningrad is effectively isolated at this point.

54:33Al Murray: It's quite good, this. We've essentially covered the best part of a month in one episode, whereas previously we've taken a... Oh, no, we haven't because we haven't really got to the... We've only done a couple of weeks of not real fighting. You know, this isn't the main action. I just wanted to kind of knock the Army Group North bit on the head early. get out of the way park it before we get on to the meat by the 24th of august the situation is critically poised army group center they're on the defensive in the center and there are major renewed attacks about to be launched in you in the ukraine and towards leningrad so hitler has won his struggle with the okh but is actually barbarossa already is it already over is it already done or is the Soviet Union really close to collapse join us in our next episode to find out I mean you could probably guess but it's how they get how we get to the result I think is the interesting part rather than you know the result the German armies are in a parlour state aren't they and you kind of think you've made your point haven't you you've taken the ground dig in stop drop use use some big rivers as defensive uh shoulders and and sit tight you know go again in the spring if that's what you want to do anyway um uh yeah join us join us for our next episode well actually in episode two we're also going to spend a bit of time looking at the allied response to the soviet um the invasion of the soviet union so what is going on in america what is going on in Britain and what does this mean for the Soviet Union's future chances are they about to collapse or are is western capitalism about to march to the rescue will it if it does will it be in time who knows go to our next episode um become a patron uh go to go to our patreon page we have ways of making talk patreon become a member all sorts of fantastic enticing goodies uh they're on offer for the members um thanks for listening everybody we'll see you again next time cheerio Cheerio!