Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart | part two

0:00Elizabeth Smart:I'm Rebecca Lavoie, and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15Elizabeth Smart:You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take an even closer look at the Netflix documentary film Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. If anyone comes into this camp, this is the knife I'm going to use to kill them, and it'll be your fault. Today, we're turning things over to our friends at Netflix's Skip Intro and their conversation with Elizabeth Smart. She reflects on the harrowing experience of being abducted from her bedroom at just 14 years old. In this intimate conversation, Elizabeth opens up about why she wanted to retell her story in more explicit detail and help other survivors not feel alone.

0:55I'm not my past. I am just who I am right now, right here in the moment. And three kids. Yeah. Are we going to have any more? No. You're done at three. Done.

1:13Elizabeth Smart, I just can't even believe that I get the privilege to be able to talk to you on Skip Intro. You've been so inspiring, your story and the way in which you have lived such a full life after being victimized in such a horrible way. And the way you've turned it around and like a mother of three and you're an incredible advocate for victims and survivors. And I'm really excited to have you here to talk about your new doc, Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. Family said she'd been taken from her bedroom in the middle of the night. I saw this cut screen and the window was wide open. My wife screamed, call 911.

1:57I'm curious, why did you want to talk about it again now? Well, I remember that when I got home, I didn't ever want to talk about it. I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened, even though I knew it wasn't my fault. I mean, I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. I knew there was no way I had invited this in my life. But there still was a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened to me. And so I didn't want to talk about it with anyone. The better part of a decade goes by. I end up in the courtroom testifying. And I felt like everything that I had kept secret for so long, all of a sudden was just out there.

2:40And I felt like there needed to be more. There needed to be a reason for all of my pain to be out there, not just not just for entertainment, not just for curiosity's sake. And so I remember telling my dad I wanted to do something more. And he was like, well, Elizabeth, you should share your story then. And at first I remember thinking, what difference is sharing my story going to make? But as I began to do it, I began to realize, you know what, actually, I didn't hear people talk about sexual abuse or violence before I was kidnapped. And even after I got home, I still didn't hear about people who had experienced those things.

3:26And I remember how alone I felt and how could anyone else possibly understand what I went through. But as I started sharing my story, I had more and more survivors coming up to me and disclosing their own stories to me. And I began to realize the importance of stories. And as I met more survivors who shared their stories, I realized that you can share with me all the statistics in the world. And yes, they can be shocking and abhorrent. But also, I don't have a memory for numbers. I mean, there's a few statistics I maybe could rattle off, but I remember stories and I remember how they make me feel.

4:11And I remember what I learned from them. And so I just felt like when this opportunity came along, this wasn't just an opportunity to share my story, but it also was an opportunity to reach out to other victims and let them know that they're not alone, that they don't have anything to be embarrassed of. that actually this is unfortunately such a common problem in this world that they don't need to feel the shame and embarrassment. It's incredible that the first time you talked about it was at that trial. Like this story I remember so vividly. No one could understand it, right? It was, it just shocked the nation to its core, right?

4:50And especially, I grew up in Colorado. So Utah, I knew, it was like our neighboring state. We spent a lot of time there. My dad did a lot of work in Utah. And to know that at that trial, you were able to sit there and go through the details. And I have to ask, was it the first time your parents were hearing that too in that moment? I mean, definitely from my own mouth. A few days after, or maybe it was even the second day after I was home. I mean, I was taken to the Children's Justice Center, where I was interviewed by a couple of psychiatrists that supposedly could stand proxy for me in the trial if I talked to them.

5:32That was, I'd say, a pretty traumatic experience. But I knew that after they had spoken with me, they'd went and spoken to my parents. And I, to this day, I don't know how much they told my parents, but I knew they did tell my parents something. But as far as like me speaking about it and going into detail, that would have been the first time that they ever heard about it. Wow. And the length that it took basically from the arrest to the trial is kind of egregious in and of itself. When you think about it, when you see this doc, what kind of relationship do you have with that 14-year-old Elizabeth when you look back on her now?

6:15I mean, I guess I have just a lot of compassion for myself. I was taken from my bed. I was taken from my home, particularly after I was back. I look back on that time period and it was really hard. I mean, I wanted to go back to being who I was before I was kidnapped. And I I feel like it was a really hard truth that I had to accept that there was no going back, that I couldn't go back to the old normal, that I just had to find peace and make a new normal. And that took a while to accept. You're just living proof that people are so much more than the traumatic events that happened to them. Well, people always come up to me and they're like, oh, Elizabeth, you're so strong.

7:06You're so strong. I could never go through what you went through. But honestly, if I knew what was going to happen in my life before it happened, I would have said the same thing. I would have been like, there's no way I can go through that. But then when you're put in a situation where you don't have a choice, I mean, I didn't have a choice. I just had to keep going. I think that's true of all of us. I mean, when you don't have a choice, you just keep going. And the other aspect I really want to talk about is your sister, because that's a piece of the story that's a little forgotten. and like her own trauma through witnessing this and then that pressure of being the only one that could potentially lead to your rescue.

7:47Yeah, I mean, I asked her, do you want to watch it? She's like, nope, absolutely not. Was there anything where, because a lot of your family participate, obviously, were you surprised by anything that you heard or saw or people talked about? I mean, watching my side of the story, I didn't feel emotional at all, But watching like my family's side of the story and listening to them talk about it, you know, 20 plus years later, but still getting emotional over it. That made me emotional. And I mean, just I remember when I first got back thinking, well, it wasn't so bad for you guys. Like you were all together, but I was by myself.

8:31but then I mean now as a parent myself and just watching it from I guess a different perspective like what they went through was pretty horrific oh there's nothing worse I mean you can't even imagine and the and the like the likelihood that you get a happy ending which really makes you such a unicorn but most of the time there isn't a happy ending and I just think about um for your sister, like what that would have been like as a nine year old. And the way we as a society try to measure, you know, why didn't she scream? Or why, you know, we like re-victimize the victims. And I think it was just so powerful when the fact that she was able to, in her own time, basically come up with knowing who it was.

9:19And then in my mind, watching it really led to you being found. She's my hero. She saved me. I was flipping through the Guinness World Records

9:38and for some random reason

9:46in that moment

9:55The name popped into my head. And I knew immediately that's who was in my bedroom. June 2002. That's the man who kidnapped Elizabeth. All right, well, let's talk about your family. Because, and especially your dad, who really just wouldn't accept that you weren't coming back to him. And he talks so vividly about the dream. And, you know, the detectives say your family went rogue. I'm so grateful they did. Right. Like, what was that? What is your family unit like? I mean, I am so grateful to have the family that I did have, because if I didn't, again, I might not be here. Because it's easy to look at law enforcement and feel like they are the absolute authorities.

10:47This is what they do for their living. This is their job. Like, this is what they study and live day in, day out. And if they're telling you she's dead, we're never going to find her. Like, you need to make peace with that. That would be a pretty devastating blow. And so for my family just to keep on searching and not giving up, I mean, I'd say that's a pretty, pretty big miracle. Was it hard at all to watch any of the reenactments? knowing what it's actually like versus a director on a set. In my mind, I'm like, that's not right. That's not, well, that's dead wrong. It's easy to sit there and kind of pick it apart.

11:32But actually, I thought it was very well done. I mean, I felt like one of the things that I really appreciated about working with who I worked with was just their care, their sensitivity, their conscientiousness. I mean, I remember actually seeing the first cut and they wanted to be so sensitive to me that when I first saw it, my feedback to them was, you asked a lot of questions. We went into a lot of detail about what happened. Like, please include that because I definitely wasn't just like sunbathing up in the mountains waiting for someone to come and rescue me. And so then they went back and adjusted it, added much more in so that when I saw the final cut, I was like, thank you.

12:23They did my story justice. Watching it when they get to you, I was just like my heart was in my throat when you're telling what happened to you. And just such the detail and the visceral nature and the way you're describing the rape and using those words. And I was there's just so much power in it, even, you know, 20 some years later. After the trial for you, how quick was that journey to realizing, like once you've said it, you've said it all out loud. And once you talk about it, you kind of can't stop talking about it, right? Because you've said it now and you've seen it and there's no more shame to it.

12:57And the word, you know, those words and the experience doesn't have power over you anymore. How long did it kind of take to formulate what you were going to do next? Well, my dad has always been very service oriented. I mean, even growing up, it was, I felt like my family's motto was, leave the world better than you find it. Or if you borrowed someone's car, you made sure it was full of gas, even if you borrowed it on half a tank or whatever it was, you left what you find better. and that's really how he lived his life. I mean, he always tried, he's still alive. He always tries to, if he works with a parent of another missing child, he tries to help them.

13:49I mean, he tries to give them more hope than maybe they originally had or advice. Just watching that example my whole life, I feel like it wasn't just like a cannonball into the deep end. And it just was like a gradual, gentle slope into the deep end where I became more and more involved. And it felt like the right choice was always right in front of me of what I should do next. I mean, there have been times when I was like, was that the right choice? Did I? Was that what I was supposed to? I've certainly had those moments or, wow, that was a mistake. Like, but for the most part, it's always been a fairly straightforward path that I've just continued on and on.

14:40I want you to catch me up a little bit about where we are with, because you have the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, obviously, talking with victims. You've done, you're pretty prolific. You just put out your third book. So congratulations on that. Thank you. You do countless speaking engagements, right? what have you kind of learned about yourself through this process? And what's something on the horizon that you're thinking you want to do that maybe you haven't accomplished yet? Through this all, I feel like I've learned one person can make a difference. I mean, I can make a difference. I don't just have to sit on the sidelines and watch other people make a difference.

15:20I can do something too. I can add to it. I feel like that's probably what I learned, Because maybe everyone feels like this, but maybe not. But I definitely felt like this. I remember just as a kid thinking, well, I'm just one person. Like, what could I possibly do that would make a difference? How could my opinion or my thoughts change anything in this world? And now I feel like, actually, no, I can make a difference. And it's okay if people disagree. And, you know, it's okay if they have their own thoughts. But someone should talk about it. And why not me? You talk a little bit about it, about people coming up to you.

16:01How do you hold their confession or their own trauma when they're telling you about what's happened to them? And sometimes you're the first, you're the only person they've ever told. I mean, first of all, I am deeply honored that people feel like they can share it with me because it takes a great deal of courage to share the worst moments of your life. And I think the fear of being judged or blamed for not doing something more is a very big reason why people don't share their stories. So that people have faith in me that I'm a safe person. That's something I don't take lightly. On the flip side of things, I mean, I typically don't watch a whole lot of crime documentaries right before bed.

16:52Um, I, I don't really like watching really intense movies or, um, I don't know, killing and blood and drama. I mean, that's, that's just something that I feel like I need to separate from because in the work that I do and the people I come into contact with, that is, that's enough. That's more than enough hard stories and nightmares that I hear that I don't need my, the last thing I see before going to sleep is someone killing someone else. Yeah. Do you watch The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City? No. I mean, I've met a few of them, but I would imagine. I haven't watched it. And did you ever think about getting out of Utah?

17:46I mean, my husband is from Scotland, like born and raised, has a green card. There have definitely been times where I'm like, maybe, maybe we should. Which is actually funny because when we first got married, I was like, yeah, we're staying in America. And he's like, oh, well, we'll stay here for a little bit, but then we'll go back to Scotland. And now it's a little bit the opposite. Like, I love America. I love Utah. Like I would never give up my citizenship ever. But sometimes now I'm like, maybe we should go to Scotland. He's like, nope. Oh, so he's flipped now. You guys met when you were on a mission, right?

18:27Did I read that correctly? Yeah. Had he known anything about you? No. Oh my God, what was that like? I mean, it was nice. Just like having someone like me for me. And I'm not saying that other people didn't, But there's always a thought at the back of your head being like, well, do they really? And I mean, because he didn't know anything in my past, I mean, he wasn't afraid to tell me what he really thought. Yeah. Which I love, but also sometimes. Whereas like before, a lot of people were just like, oh, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if it's because they were afraid to like hurt my feelings or I don't know.

19:14But I guess with him, I initially liked the pushback. No, I still like it. But at least does he have a thick Scottish accent? I mean, when I first met him, I used to have to say things like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? Can you repeat that just one more time? I'm sorry. And then when I went to Scotland and I met his family, then I was just like, could you? I know they're speaking English, but I swear it's not the same language. I know it's hard. It's like, could you please tell me what they're saying? I mean, now, you know, we've been married for 14 years, so I don't even hear his accent anymore.

19:50Do your kids have a little of the accent? Not any words of like, whoot or... I mean, like, they might say bin instead of trash. Okay. But it's definitely with an American accent. What was that like when you had to tell him? I mean, obviously, he had to know and it was... I mean, we were in a group setting, so a lot of the other missionaries told him. But I think that's another thing that I appreciated about, or I still do appreciate about him, is that I'm not my past. I am just who I am right now, right here in the moment. And three kids. Yeah. Are we going to have any more? No. You're done at three.

20:34Done. Okay. So one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is I was raised very Catholic, like I always say, a day week Catholic. And some of the things that you spoke about were some of the things that I was taught as well, right? About very little sex education, very just very conservative, very the need to like wait to have sex until marriage, obviously being brought up Mormon. and to be victimized by people that have taken that to a deranged extreme. How is that for you communicating your story to your children? I mean, one of the best pieces of advice that I was given was the right time to start talking to your kids is when they ask questions.

21:21That actually led to me answering questions way before I was ready to answer questions. I think, I mean, my oldest was three years old when she started asking questions. And I just remember thinking, I'm not ready for this. Like, why are you asking these questions? I'm not ready. But then I remember that piece of advice. And I was like, well, it shouldn't be a secret. And as they grow, I definitely want them to understand, like, if I say no to something or, like, I don't believe in sleepovers, I want them to understand why I'm saying no. And so, I mean, I didn't go into detail. I mean, it was actually like a very simple explanation.

22:06I mean, I think when she first asked at three years old, I said, well, there was a very bad man and he took me away from my family and he hurt me. And now he's in jail. Then as she has grown, she's now 10, almost 11. That's called preteen. You're getting into preteen years. I feel like because I spoke about it and I answered her questions young, I feel like that has left the door open for us to talk about it and any other difficult subject as she's grown because I didn't just shut her down and just say, I'll talk to you about it when you're older. And I also read that you've named all the body parts for your kids so they know.

22:47I mean, after I was rescued, when I was being interviewed by those two psychiatrists, like I went in there and they're like, okay, so what happened? And I was like, well, I was molested. And they're like, okay, but can you explain it? And then I was like, well, I was raped. And they're like, well, yeah, but can you describe the rape? And I was like, well, he forced himself inside of me. And they're like, we need you to say exact body parts. Can you please use the anatomically correct names? And so then I had to get to a point where I said he forced his penis in my vagina repeatedly. And that for me was just so embarrassing and like difficult.

23:28I mean, for one, using the correct body part names just because, I mean, they were your privates. Like they weren't penis and vagina in my house growing up. They were your privates. That was very embarrassing. But then also I was still a young girl. I was being interviewed by two middle-aged men who were both clearly religious. Like I could see they were religious, which I mean, good for them. But all of these ingredients that made that situation just about unbearable for me. You know, I'd just been kidnapped and raped by a middle-aged man using the guise of religion. And then these men are there, felt like the same situation.

24:20And I was being backed into a corner yet again. So now with my own kids, I'm like, yeah, that's your penis. and it's a body part and it's you know like nobody has any shame around hand nobody has any shame around elbow why should there be shame around vagina or penis and so sometimes you know there's been a few situations where I'm like can we not talk about this right now in public but at the same time like I'm glad that they don't have that embarrassment around those body parts. That is, you bring up such a good point about being re-traumatized right after your rescue. In the work that you do as an advocate, have you pushed to change that to make sure, like, it would have made a huge difference, I'm sure, if there was just a woman in the room with you.

25:17I agree completely. And actually, that is not something I've personally worked on, but I feel like advocacy centers in and of themselves have come to that conclusion. And there are so many advocacy centers that do such a wonderful, wonderful job trying to make it streamline, whether it's with just not hidden, but discrete cameras and like earpieces. So if law enforcement has to get certain information from children, the forensic interviewer can ask in a trauma sensitive way without the intimidation of maybe a police officer in the room or just like the imbalance of power between maybe a big burglary man versus a little girl.

26:05Well, you just talk about like you've just been rescued and even in the dock, which is just so incredible when you're telling that story or the police detective is telling the story of, you know, you've been recognized or Emmanuel's been recognized because of the sketch, because of your sister and because of your parents going rogue. that officer moved you to the side, had it had it sensed enough that something was not right. Right. Even though they were, oh, everything's nothing to see over here. But even then it was so traumatic when he's asking, are you Elizabeth smart? Are you Elizabeth smart?

26:40And your response is thou sayeth. It's just to go from that to then suddenly the next day or that afternoon talking in that room is kind of just reprehensible to think about. The day that I was rescued, yes, it was one of the happiest days of my life, but also it was very traumatic. I mean, I lived with an immense amount of fear for nine months. You know, nobody had protected me from my captors. Nobody had stop them from hurting me, raping me, withholding food, water, I mean, clothes from me for nine months. And so I didn't know if anyone could. And I felt like at the end of the day, my captors would get away, just like they got away with everything else, whether it was stealing or lying or manipulating people into giving them money or whatever it was they wanted.