Marines

0:00Rebecca Lavoie:I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15Rebecca Lavoie:You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary series Marines. The prize and the consequence is the greatest out of any contest. It's not a matter of a scoreboard. It's not bragging rights. It's who gets to live and who dies. Today we're talking to director Chelsea Yarnell and author and executive producer Sebastian Younger. They're the few, the proud, first to storm the beach or secure the battlefield. But what goes into making a modern Marine? How is the Marine Corps adapting to 21st century changes to warfare?

0:54Rebecca Lavoie:What are the new skills needed to face today's enemy? Who are the men and women who heed the call? And what do they hope to prove to themselves by putting on the uniform? The Netflix documentary series Marines follows the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit as they prepare for a high-stakes training exercise that tests their readiness in the air, on land, and sea. The series follows a group of enlisted men and officers, snipers, gunners, and pilots as they push themselves physically and emotionally in order to claim the title of United States Marine. At the end of the day, that's that young 19, 18-year-old.

1:29They are the guys that do what needs to be done to America's enemies. And not all of them are coming home.

1:44Rebecca Lavoie:Later in the podcast, we'll talk to author Sebastian Younger. But we'll start our discussion with series director Chelsea Yarnell. Chelsea, welcome to You Can't Make This Up. Oh, thank you. Happy to be here, Rebecca. I love the series that I watch, and I wonder the entire time I'm watching it, how did this get made? So how did this get made? How long has this been in the works? Both of our production companies, Lucky 8 and Amblin, have longstanding and very strong relationships with the U.S. Marine Corps. They had both been in conversation for a long time, wanting to do something together, wanting to partner up.

2:21And I think over the course of those conversations, a certain amount of trust was built. And that's what led the USMC to just say, you know what, I think now is the time.

2:35Rebecca Lavoie:Tell me about the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit and why their story is a good one to tell. The 31st Mew, what they're doing and where they're doing it is so important, the region that they are active in. And I think that the producers felt as though their story was an important one to tell now. Hmm. Tell me about the cast, for lack of a better word, of of this series. I mean, we obviously have a lot of different types of Marines and different types of roles. But what did you think about this collection of Marines that we ended up meeting? It was really important to us to have a wide range of subjects.

3:19You know, we have machine gunners, we have scout snipers, we have pilots. We wanted to do a good job of showing the audience just like how many different types of people, how many different jobs there were. I will say just in my experience on the ships, one of my main takeaways was just like how interesting everyone was. Everyone has a story. These ships are really floating cities. Many of my favorite characters in our best interviews came from just chance encounters in the hallway or just like a shared happening, finding your seat next to someone new at the cafeteria, you know, that type of thing.

4:02So it was really fun. All right. So coming in, here's the wardroom. Again, I'm not really technically allowed in here, but you can look in and that's where all the officers eat. But they'll have like enlisted dudes walking around with like a white cloth napkin and draped over their arm. Like, I don't know, more Coca-Cola, sir. We were grateful that a lot of our casting could come about organically. Hmm.

4:31Rebecca Lavoie:The first Marine we meet is machine gunner Price Seymour. And after he says that grunts like him have feelings, too, he says this. Violence is the only thing that makes fucking life interesting. Like, yeah, there's the negative things about it. But in my eyes, violence is like positive almost. Those are different but powerful statements. Why did you start the series there? When I started on the project, I knew very little about the Marine Corps and military life. And we knew that the majority of our audience would be the same. And when I first started interviewing people, I think that the young people's comfort with lethality was something that I found very shocking.

5:17So I think that we assume that maybe audiences would feel similarly. And we hope that over the course of the series, audiences come to understand why these young people are so desensitized to it and comfortable with it. But yeah, I think we decided to open up for a little, maybe a little shock and awe.

5:39Rebecca Lavoie:Did you find a common thread among the younger Marines regarding a sense of purpose? You know, what they were looking to find? Yes, I do think that part of the collective identity of the Marine Corps is this shared goal of finding one's purpose or finding purpose and sacrifice or something larger than themselves. It's something that I found very unique to the people in this world. And it's something that that I think bonded all of them quite a bit. So this isn't a battlefield documentary. The series follows the unit as they're preparing for a training exercise called CERTEX. What is that? CERTEX is the certification exercise.

6:21So it's something that each MU has to undergo each year to make sure that they're ready to execute any mission that they might be given. And it's a really important part of their process every year. It's the stakes for each individual Marine feel very high.

6:41Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. I mean, we do learn in the documentary that, you know, training in the Marines can be dangerous in sort of unexpected ways. One of the things that struck me as they were heading into this training, one of the people running it said something along the lines, if we've created something that they really can't win. It reminded me of like the Kobayashi Maru in Star Trek, like kind of an unwinnable scenario. Was that was that right? I do think that they they want to see the Marines learn how to fail. We threw the kitchen sink at you, man. But the one thing you have to do and cannot lose is your composure.

7:16This is what we're testing. Can you recover from that and not, you know, do a downward spiral and then fall apart? The tasks that they are given are just so complex and difficult. And that is true of a combat situation. So I think that they want to see how they fail and how they get back up. Yeah, it doesn't make it. I don't think it makes it any easier for those individual Marines who don't maybe do as well as they had hoped.

7:44Rebecca Lavoie:But yes, they make it extremely, extremely difficult. You can't be an amphibious landing team without the Navy. and we see units come on board the vessels that will bring them to the theater of operations. Now, did I get the sense that not all the sailors super enjoy the company of the Marines? There was a really fun rivalry between the Marines and the Navy. The Marines, the really only good thing that we're good for on board, honestly, is eating too much food. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Taking up space, not showering. As soon as we left Okinawa, You could just smell the stench throughout the ship.

8:22It's definitely like a sibling relationship, but you could tell they really they really like each other. They love ribbing each other.

8:30Rebecca Lavoie:Maybe don't love each other's smell from what I gleaned from this. Yeah, definitely. Like the Marines are sort of like the the roommates who forget to pay their rent on the ship. Right. Yeah. The Navy like to remind them of that. So, Chelsea, what are these filming conditions like? I mean, the ships look tight. We also have aerial footage. What were the conditions of making this documentary? Well, it was an embed dock. So we were living on the ships. The living conditions were severe. They were, you know, extremely close quarters, no creature comforts. Plumbing didn't always work. A lot of knocking down doors for toilet paper.

9:13You know, it's brutal, but it was it's very rewarding. You know, it's just like every just one 360 open ocean sunset on the flight deck made every kind of crappy cafeteria meal worth it. We really felt like there there was really like this rhythm to it. And there was like a bond that formed, I think, between the crew and our subjects that felt really intense because we were all kind of going through it together.

9:45Rebecca Lavoie:Right. Right. So it was a really intense experience. I just have to ask, which mess hall were you allowed to eat in? We saw that there are sort of tiers of places where one is allowed to eat. We had the fancy one. Oh, good to hear. We were brushing shoulders with the shinies. What was your favorite sequence to film? You know, I'm really a fan of these, like just the smaller moments, the intimate moments. I loved being in the barracks with the scout snipers and just watching them kind of rib each other.

10:24Everyone is hilarious. That's one thing about the Marines that was like a major takeaway for me was just like how funny everyone is. So I think I really enjoyed just kind of watching them eat their meals and, you know, hang out together, passing time. I'll also say that I was really impressed by watching the logistics of everything. So, for example, there was a medical evacuation of a Marine at one point in the series where the ship actually has to turn around and change course. And so one of our helicopter pilots can, you know, move an injured Marine to a safe hospital.

11:13Rebecca Lavoie:Boys, just take a second and understand we're flying in this new country and how sick that is. This is awesome. I remember just being so in awe of how skilled and knowledgeable everyone was and how well everyone worked together. I was like thinking, you know, oh, this is going to be high drama. what's going to happen? And I mean, these people were just unflappable. They just say it got it was just another day for them. Part of what we learn is that as the nature of warfare changes, so do the Marines. So what does that do to those who learn that they may never get to do the thing that they've been training to do all this time?

11:52I know. You know, I think this was surprisingly emotional for a lot of our cast. Now that a scout sniper platoon's taken away and it's gone. What do I do now? They're getting rid of something that's like beautiful. If death could be beautiful, they're getting rid of something beautiful. It seems like you would just assume it's just a job, but it's so much more than that for these people. It's, you know, they commit their entire lives and there's so much sacrifice involved in that commitment that to have it all kind of taken away is something that was very emotional for them.

12:32Rebecca Lavoie:We also go to the home front and meet some of the families of the Marines. I'm curious, what did you glean from these different people? I mean, they're from all walks of life. They're different types of families. But it seemed like there were some themes in the way that they talked about their loved ones. Can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, a theme really is heartache. It was really being away from your family for months. There's just uncertainty surrounding it. It could be three months. It could be six. especially for these young enlisted grunts who don't really have a lot of control over their schedules.

13:08And for actually someone like Angie, who's in the Navy, who's actually gone for nine full months. I can give 100 % to being an XO. 100 % to the job, 100 % to the mission, 100 % to the sailors on board. Because I can't be 100 % at home. I can't be the mom I want to be at home. So I take all that energy and just channel it into passion for the job. We did, when we went to visit each household, we did notice that there was just like extreme amount of heartache and acknowledgement of a shared sacrifice. Like they also are a part of the sacrifice and saying goodbye to their family members for so long, not knowing when they're going to come back.

13:49Yeah, I really I hope that people see something of themselves in these characters because beneath the uniforms, it really is just like a universal story of just being human. And I think like missing your family members and being gone for them for so long is a really relatable part of that experience.

14:08Rebecca Lavoie:I'm curious because we do follow one Marine who's discharged, decides not to go back, Logan Ruse. And he was the one who was saying constantly that he enlisted because he wanted to prove himself to be a man. He wanted to prove something to himself. Do you think ultimately he got what he was looking for? I think he did. You know, knowing him well, there's only so much real estate you can give to each character. And I can say for audiences, I do think that he grew and matured in the way that he had hoped to. For me, it was like the longest time I always told myself, all right, you got to be a man, you got to be a man.

14:44You know, and I would constantly remind myself I got to be a man, you got to be a man. When those thoughts go away, that's when you really know that you're transitioned. And I'm no longer trying to change myself and think like how a man would think. He is doing well and is as manly as I think he wants to be.

15:06Rebecca Lavoie:So when we watch something on Netflix, you know, we watch it, we turn it off, we turn to the person on the couch next to us and we talk about it. So when viewers are done with this series, what do you want them to know about the Marines that they didn't know before? I can speak to what I didn't know going in. I think that when I started on this series, I knew very little about military life and I was expecting to tell a story of physical toughness. toughness. And what we ended up documenting was very much a psychological battle, more so, more internal. And the Marines that I met were really very evolved and complex people who have seen more and been through more than anyone who I meet on my day to day.

15:57Rebecca Lavoie:Chelsea Arnell, Director of Marines, thanks so much for coming on the podcast to talk to me about it. Thank you so much, Rebecca.

16:08Rebecca Lavoie:And I'm joined now by author and executive producer Sebastian Younger. Thanks for joining me on You Can't Make This Up, Sebastian. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you. Can you talk a little bit about the mystique of the Marines? There's the squared away Marine in his dress blues and white gloves, the paragon of precision and honor. And then there are the grunts who take pride in their work, being killing machines, as they say. How can this organization be both things? Well, yeah, it's a great question. It goes to the heart, not just of the Marines, but of the military in every country. As I think it was Churchill who said, England sleeps safely at night because rough men stand ready to commit violence on her behalf.

16:50That's just what war is. And people who are prepared for war are going to be tough people and rough people. And I'm sorry to say it, violent people. And one of the things that keeps people safe in combat is their own knowledge about themselves that they are more violent than the enemy. Right. And it feels uncomfortable and or worse, you know, like polite society to say it that way. But that it's a survival. It's a survival thing. And, you know, if that helps, then do it because everyone needs to try to survive in those circumstances.

17:24Rebecca Lavoie:Right. Do you think everyone is going to be comfortable hearing some of the way these younger Marines especially talk about violence? Not that lethal means are part of their mission, but that they actually desire to use violence in their jobs. I imagine their moms might. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Somebody who knows them is going to be a little uncomfortable because they know Tommy is such a sweet kid. Right. And now here he is, you know, with an M240 Bravo. I don't want to sit here and say I'm praying for war or whatever. But like that's what I want at the end of the day. You know, that's what I fucking dedicated the last two years of my life to training for was that fucking feeling of sending hate downrange at somebody, you know.

18:03But it's been a part of human society for 200 ,000 years. Right. So you're not going to will it away by suppressing people's actual speech. Right. I mean, these young Marines talk like that because they're being taught to kill. Right. And if you're being taught to kill and you don't turn into a virtue, you're going to be in a psychologically very contradictory and complex position with yourself. So I completely understand. And, you know, I think later in their lives, they might look back at those brash statements and sort of roll their eyes at themselves a little bit like we all have done. Right.

18:37With one thing or another.

18:38Rebecca Lavoie:I wanted to ask you about that because I feel like the younger Marines that we see are coming into the service from a very different social landscape than their commanding officers potentially. And we see the older Marines really talking more circumspectly about their mission and about violence. Do you think this is about maturity or is it potentially generational? Oh, I think it's partly maturity. And, you know, there's some male virtues going on here as well. I mean, young men have a lot of testosterone and they place a high value on dominant language and aggression and all that stuff. And that's true in every single society.

19:14Right. And, you know, it's not to say that women can't do that same job just as well. But there is a sort of male behavior there that's pretty universal. And I think you mature out of it. Also, these guys, you know, I say guys because I'm referring to the men there because those are the ones who use that language. They have not been in combat yet. Right. The guys that I know who were in a lot of combat, and I know plenty of them because I spent a lot of time with the army, actually don't talk like that. They don't need to anymore. They got the dust on their uniforms. Right. They got the scars.

19:47To me, that's the language used by someone who's trying to, you know, brace themselves for something extremely intimidating and potentially deadly and talk themselves into a place of confidence.

19:58Rebecca Lavoie:That's embraced by the Marines because that's what the training is about, right? The training is about being willing to do this hard job that most of us would find impossible. Yes. I mean, they're being asked to do things, the fire weapons that have consequences for the human body that are almost too ugly to even look at. and they're being asked to do that and do it with a good conscience, right? With a clean heart, a good conscience out of a set of patriotism, but it's unspeakably ugly. The result of what they're doing is unspeakably ugly in human terms. And the military has to figure out how to protect them psychologically from the harm of that.

20:33And one way is to talk up the aggression part, right? Patriotism doesn't quite get you all the way there. Oh, I did it for my country. I mean, one soldier that I know who was in a lot of combat, he and I are extremely close, And he said, well, people say I did what I had to do. I did what I had to do. Is that what God's going to say? I did what I had to do? I don't think so. Right. And so, you know, these people, they're young and they're navigating a very complex moral terrain that philosophers have stumbled in. Right. You know, and we're asking them to do that. They'll do it. They'll get through it.