My Father, the BTK Killer

0:00I'm Rebecca Lavoie, and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. In this episode, we'll go deeper into the story behind the Netflix documentary film My Father, the BTK Killer. My father just flew under the radar, and they didn't find him for 31 years because he was literally right under their noses. They weren't looking for somebody like my father, the everyday man that actually does have a family. In 2005, Carrie Rawson's world was shattered when her father was arrested. The church-going former Cub Scout leader Dennis Rader was accused of being the infamous BTK killer, responsible for 10 gruesome murders between 1974 and 1991.

0:59In the Netflix documentary, My Father, the BTK Killer, Carrie embarks on a personal journey of understanding, confronting childhood trauma and searching for healing. Today, we'll hear a bonus episode from Monster BTK, the latest installment in the Monster podcast series from Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts. The 10-episode investigative series is available now. In this bonus episode, executive producer Payne Lindsey sits down with Carrie to talk about her early childhood, learning about her dad's true identity when she was an adult, and dealing with the aftermath of his arrest 20 years ago.

1:46Welcome to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK. Early in the process of making the show, executive producer Payne Lindsey got a call from Carrie Rawson, daughter of Dennis Rader, the BTK killer. They sat down together for an interview. What came out of that was a five-hour conversation in Atlanta, where they covered everything from her early childhood to learning about her dad's true identity when she was an adult. You've heard some of it throughout the podcast. but we left a ton on the cutting room floor. So now I'm pleased to share with you an abbreviated version of Payne's conversation with Keri Rawson.

2:32I hope you enjoy it. Keeping it simple, introduce yourself. I'm Keri Rawson. I'm the daughter of Dennis Rader, who's better known as the BTK killer from Wichita, Kansas. How does it feel saying that? It's been a long process. It's been 16 years since his arrest in 2005. It's been a very long process to be able to even say BTK out loud and then to acknowledge like that he is my dad and I'm his daughter. Most headlines that involve me are still BTK's daughter. But like I'm a bestselling author now. I remember about my life, you know, growing up with my father and his arrest and everything. But I'm still not known as Kerry Ross.

3:15and I'm known probably for eternity as BTK's daughter. But you're not, you're also, you're Carrie. That was a lot of like my process of healing. I mean, I was Carrie and he was dad and then he was arrested and all of a sudden he was BTK and I lost Carrie. You know, a lot of my book is about that, losing me and finding myself again. My husband Darian said in 2012, once I forgave my dad, I came back to carry. I was gone for seven years. You know, a lot of who I am and what makes me me, like the person sitting across from you was gone. So when I let go of some of that stuff, that's when I started coming back to me.

4:01But I really didn't really start healing, I don't think, until I started speaking up in the media in 2014. A lot of my later journey was about coming to terms not only with who my dad was, how I knew him, who he actually was, this other side I had to learn, and then coming back to terms with who I am in context of my dad, and then what was I going to do with it. So, I mean, it's just been a massive process for me many years. Where'd you grow up? So, I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. I was born in June of 1978. We lived in Park City. It's a small northern suburb of Wichita, so about 5 ,000 people. Wichita is like a big spread out metro area, probably about 500 ,000 now.

4:49So I lived nine houses down from my mom's parents, Eileen and Palmer Dietz. So my mom literally moved nine houses down when she married my dad in May of 71. And they bought this three bedroom ranch that has the exact layout as my grandparents' house. but it has a much bigger yard because like my dad loved the garden so he planted trees and he built this massive garden in the back and then he said when I was about two he had to install a metal fence because before then he didn't have a fence but he said I was like wandering over to like the neighbors to pet their huge dog like this wolf-like dog and he was like freaked out so he had to start like fencing me in by the time I was like two.

5:35Were you just curious or what? Oh, yeah. I've always just been a go getter, like total tomboy adventurer, just go do anything and everything with my dad. He would like take me out gardening. You know, I was three or four. He was teaching me about all the plants, the vegetables, growing seasons, soil, anything dad was doing, I wanted to do. Like he loved the outdoors. So he was cool and let me get muddy. And my mom hates the outdoors. Like literally my mom is like outside to go like home to car, like church. Literally, she hates the outdoors. What kind of garden was this? Just, you know, I have like a family garden that he had plotted out.

6:18He even turned my bedroom into a greenhouse. Like I was three or four and he set up solar lights. I mean like the big for lights and had trays of seedlings. And literally I couldn't sleep in my room. So I was sleeping like in the bottom bunk of my brother's bunk bed. My brother Brian's three years older than me. And like in my book, I talk about remembering like my dad taking these trays of seeds and then putting them under this light in this attached shed that was right connected to our house. So I literally remember watching my dad take care of these seeds and water on them. Like he was obsessed with gardening when I was little.

6:58Like he would throw himself into these things, which, you know, later on we learned he was literally throwing himself into stuff to distract him from murder, literally. But he was gardening. And then later on it was the dog track that was north of Park City, like late 80s, early 90s. He literally was laid off from work from ADT, was doing work with the census off and on. We didn't have much money. and he was gambling at the dog track. And he was obsessed about it. Like he was like pulling it out of the Wichita Eagle, like all the stats and like trying to like figure out the system. And then later it was stamps.

7:39So like 90s up until when he was arrested, he was collecting stamps. And he was doing first aid covers. Like you sign an envelope with your name. So he's basically autographing this envelope and then paying extra to have it stamped with his first day cover and then sent back to him and like sealed plastic. Now, did he think that those were going to have value someday? Like that's like those unknown questions, like the ego and the narcissism getting in there, having all of like his autograph on all these envelopes. It sounds like there was always some sort of obsession. Let's go back to just Wichita.

8:17Like put yourself back there as a kid. What did it look like? I mean, Wichita is like your classic Midwestern town. Unless you count Kansas City, it's the biggest city in Wichita. So it's like known for like avionics. So my grandma Eileen, out of high school, she worked at Boeing driving a Cushman cart for the World War II effort. She literally was a Rosie the Riveter. Both my grandpa served in World War II. Father was born in Pittsburgh, Kansas, but then lived his first years in Columbus, Kansas with my grandma's family. They moved to Wichita when he was like around five. So they were living on Seneca, like north, central Wichita, about three miles from where I grew up.

9:01So your parents met at the church? My dad, he was in the Air Force from, I think, around 66 to 71. So this is during Vietnam. He graduated from high school Wichita Heights in 63. And then he tried community college for a while. He's not a very good student. And my grandpa, who had been a Marine in World War II, told him, you're going to get drafted. So he's like, I don't want you to get drafted. I want you to enlist. Because if you get drafted, you're going to be stuck in the Army and you're going to be stuck like in the bush. So my dad enlisted in the Air Force. And he ended up, he never stepped foot in Vietnam.

9:40Like he traveled to Greece, Turkey, Japan, South Korea. And he brought home all these trinkets and like this kimono robe from Japan and like influenced by these cultures. And he had these photos of like the places he had traveled in Greece and Turkey when I was a kid. He had this big box of mementos. And like literally that's like that's how disconnected he is. Like this is Vietnam, right? So like his two younger brothers, Paul and Bill, both served in Vietnam. Paul was in the Navy on a swift boat and Bill was a marine stuck walking the bush. So like my uncles came home with PTSD. They were talked about the war.

10:18And my dad is like talking like about that he was vacationing. So when my dad was in the Air Force, he did like telephone pole work and wiring. So that's kind of stuff he would incorporate later into his crimes. But he did a lot of stuff with wires and climbing telephone poles and communications and things like that. So he was super handy. So he comes back in the summer of 70. And my mom grew up at Christ Lutheran. That's our church. So she's grown up at Christ Lutheran. It was across from my parents' high school, Wichita Heights. So my mom and her two sisters and my dad and his brothers, they all went to the same high school.

11:03But my mom was a freshman there when my dad was a senior. So she said she never met him. Your dad went to church every Sunday? So my dad grew up Lutheran. And then when my dad was overseas with the Air Forces, when his parents switched to the Lutheran church my mom had been in since she was little, it was something they both had been brought up, and it was not something you ever questioned. Like, they both always served. He always was either doing communion later on, assistant minister. It was something you did. Out of your mom, dad, and brother, who were you closest to? Out of my family growing up, I was definitely probably closest to my dad.

11:41I was close to my brother. We did a lot of stuff, but I think looking back, I probably was closest to my dad. Why is that? Just because dad had fun and wanted to do things and be outside and things that I ended up enjoying. Like I said, I could get dirty and be a tomboy and we would walk the dog and we would talk. You know, I could be free and comfortable with him. You know, he took me fishing and camping. That was huge for us. Did he enjoy sharing these things with you? It's hard when you're over on this side of only knowing my dad as who he is in the context of BTK, you know, or what you know about serial killers to think of this guy being a father and normal and enjoying things.

12:25But he needed to be outside. He could get, like, uptight and angry and difficult and controlling inside. I mean, you would see it in any sort of building, like church, family homes, anywhere. Like he just, so, okay, for example, it's July of 2003, two weeks before I'm getting married. He was doing something in the house. Like he, you know, he did a lot of home repairs. He was always fixing something or doing something. He left this open toolbox around the corner next to our stove in the kitchen. I'm just rounding the corner. I'm probably walking too fast. I don't know, for like two decades, he's barking at me to slow down and not walk so fast.

13:06And I literally step with my right foot into this open toolbox. Now, he left the toolbox there. He shouldn't have left it there. It's right in the small, narrow walking place. I step into it. I tear a ligament in my foot. And it's somehow my fault. He like flips and he's yelling at you in that moment because you're hurt because of something he did. Thinking back on it now, is it because things are out of order? I mean, some of it is that control, like obscene amount of need to control things and to have order and be like nothing disrupting his day. Like at Yellowstone, my mom trips like we're walking on this path.

13:45We're visiting the Tetons. We're just because my mom's with us. We're just literally just walking. We're not hiking or anything. My mom didn't do any of that. Like we're literally just walking on like a normal path. She accidentally trips, falls down a little bit of like a culvert or something, and she's bleeding from her knee, and she's like sprained her ankle. He just erupts like verbally abusive, almost physically abusive, mad at her because she's messed up his day. Honestly, she spent so much of that vacation in a hotel, and I thought it was because of her ankle. I thought it was because she was injured.

14:18And then it wasn't until 2015 that I asked her on the phone. I said, do you remember Jackson Hole? So we talked about it, about how she felt. And she says, your dad ran my vacation. And what'd she mean by that? Just being an asshole, like being a jerk. Do you think he really felt bad? I mean, I totally think he did because like, I don't buy the whole, like, this guy doesn't have feelings and doesn't shut down. Like if you talk to people that have grown up in like verbal and emotional abuse situations. Now, I wasn't physically or sexually abused, but if you talk to abuse survivors, we all have that ability when we were little to start managing things, you know, manage our parents.

15:03You know, you'll talk to kids of like alcoholics. You're managing things the best that you can. So while I was aware that like mom was hurt, dad felt bad, I also just went along with dad to go have fun. So I never really thought anything more other than mom doesn't really like this stuff and she's hurt. So here it is 20 years later, you know, dad's been arrested for 10 years and there's just that hurt and tightness and tenseness in my mom's voice saying, your dad ruined my vacation. Now, it's really hard with my mom to process everything that's happened and asked, so I have to be really careful.

15:36So when I was researching, you know, my dad and my life and trying to figure out what to write and deal with all this, I actually literally was in trauma therapy back in 2015, again, trying to process all this. So I think my mom probably does hold some answers, but we don't really go there. What do you mean hold some answers? Like somebody like my father is rare, but there's other guys out there and we need to catch them. We need to catch them quicker. One of the reasons I've been so invested in learning about my dad and his crimes is to get more knowledge on these guys to actually show what they really are like to like extend the profiles.

16:18And so we can catch them quicker. let's go back a little bit and do you have any memories of the btk killings happening in wichita before anyone knew that it was your dad or anyone really knew what was going on do you remember there being a killer somewhere as far as i know i do not remember ever hearing the acronym btk involved in any murders. Before 2004, it was the summer of 2004 when I found out he had come back and communicated. Now, you have to remember there were seven murders in the Otero family in January of 1974. Then two months later was Catherine Bright, and he attempted to murder her brother, Kevin Bright.

17:04And then he shut down for a few years. Then 77 was Shirley Vianne. And then in December of 77 was Nancy Fox when my mom was pregnant with me for three years. I never knew any of this going on in the 70s. So when I'm six, then I find out the neighbor lady had gone missing and they thought something bad had happened to her. How'd you find that out? I know my parents were talking about it. I'm sure it was probably on the news because in the 80s, the news was just on. It's not like it is now with kids where you can just get it on your phone. I know I would have heard my parents talking about Mrs. Hedge missing, and they had a conversation saying that they thought it was the boyfriend.

17:47Was that scary as a kid, having a neighbor go missing? Yeah, it altered me pretty bad. Mrs. Hedge was like an acquaintance to us, Maureen Hedge. Like we would walk by and say hi to her when we were walking down to my grandparents, like with my mom, or we would stop and chat. Don't have a clear memory exactly of my father talking to her, but I do remember stopping and talking to her with my mom. But more of it just an acquaintance, hello, how are you? How are you doing? You know, talk, you know, maybe about gardening or something. She was out in her yard just like quick. You know, I had never been in her house or anything.

18:21How did it make you feel processing that somebody that you knew of in the neighborhood was brutally murdered? See, I mean, that's the thing. Like when I was six, not only did I know she was missing, like a police officer came by canvassing the neighborhood and I was out playing. I was jumping on my red pogo stick. My mom was there in our driveway, and he interviewed my mom quickly, came and said, you know, have you seen anything? Do you know anything? You know, I vaguely remember this officer talking to my mom. And then they found her body, and somehow I knew that her body had been found out in the country, and I knew she had been strangled.

18:59Why does a six-year-old know that her neighbor lady's been strangled? Where do you think the urge to murder an innocent person comes from? It's just, they're just a means to an end, unfortunately. I mean, that's what he would say. What do you mean by that? Like, I'm saying when he's calling him a project, he's dehumanizing him. Sure, so he doesn't even look at them as people. He doesn't. He sees them as tools, as something to help him express himself and feel better. What do you think that it is that he's feeling that needs to be fixed so badly? I think it's brokenness. I mean, really, he's taking out something with his murders.

19:40He's taking something out, like replacing something inadequate in him to feel better about himself. I don't even know if he knows he's doing it, like to make himself feel better. There's a quote like, hurt people hurt, right? Like pain is like grief passed on, like trauma passed on. like generational by generational, like something was wrong with my dad for whatever reasons, and now he's passing it on to these families. You know, here's this family in Wichita living their life, trying to make ends meet, and four of them are gone like that because something's wrong with my dad. What is that that's wrong, and then what do we do about it, and how do we stop it?

20:28Does that add up, though? Is that who your dad was? I would say internally that's probably who he is at the core. For those who don't know, and only I know so much about this, what exactly is a night terror for you? So they're pretty common with children. It's worse than a nightmare. Like there's a physical reaction, you know, like a nightmare you're just kind of having in your head and you might remember in the morning. But like a night terror, I can scream bloody murder. I'm sitting up terrified. I see things. I fight. So back when you were six years old, describe to me what those night terrors were when they first started.

21:07It's always like there's somebody bad in my room there to kill me. It's not necessarily a face or a person. It's more of that feeling that somebody is going to murder you. That something is in the room, though? It's something very bad is in the room to kill you, always. And so as a little girl, I wasn't able to describe it to that level that I am now. but I was like sitting up in bed screaming and it was always my mom, always my mom that would come sit by my bed. And so she's trying to rationalize with somebody that's like freaked out and you're shaking. Like sometimes I'll be shaking. My heart will be beating really fast.

21:43I mean, like I even used to wet the bed when I was little sometimes, you know, she would say, it's okay, Carrie, you're safe. No one's here. There's no one bad in the house. You're safe. Like safe is sort of like that keyword to anchor me. Like you're safe. You're okay. Like, even if you weren't, your dad was aware that you were being affected by Hedges' death. Like, he's quoted in 2016 as saying he was sure it was from there. And I don't think I even really, like, connected my night terror starting, like, to that. Now, is it more complicated than that? Maybe. But he was aware, and he found it empowering.

22:20But he didn't get me any help. Thinking back to your six-year-old self, having suppressed certain details before, your six-year-old self laying in your bed at night, fearful of something being in your room, do you ever think that that could have actually been your dad in there? I mean, our best guess from experts I've talked to is that very well could have been my dad practicing something, coming back from something inadvertently scaring me. I mean, he could even have been in there getting off. We don't know. I mean, we know I was not sexually abused, but my dad like masturbated again, like next to Josie Otero after he strangled her.

23:00Right. So and he did that, at least with Nancy Fox. So who is to say my dad wasn't in my room getting off? We don't know. I mean, literally, when I talk to detectives, they're like, it's very possible. Do you think that you were ever really in danger? My dad is quoted in Ramsland's book saying, I loved my family. I loved Paula. He was very, very protective. And like if anybody had messed with us, he would have got in their way. I mean, he's quoted as saying he loved us very much. You know, he was worried about us. In the 70s, this whole community is erupting in this fear after the Oteros. And then in October of 74, he sent his first communication.

23:43There's this fear in this community of the serial killer as he's communicating with the police in the 70s, murdering more people. My mother even is quoted as saying like she was scared and she talked to my dad about it and he said, you're fine, don't worry, you're safe. Because he knew she was safe because he's not going to murder her. You know, she worked at the VA and she would be out late sometimes with dinner with girlfriends, you know, and he was working at ADT during the day and then he was going to WSU for criminal justice at night. He was gone a lot plus doing all his BTK stalking and whatever.

24:19So she was home alone, you know, trying to raise my brother and me. She was scared. But he reassured her and told her she was fine. But even he said that he was worried. Almost just subconsciously from himself. But he also is fully aware that if he's capable of doing this, then somewhere else out in the world, maybe someone else is too. Exactly. And I think he had that keen ability to read bad people and know, like to stay clear. Do you feel like he tricked you your whole life? No, I don't think he was like, oh, I'm going to trick everybody. Well, I mean, do you feel like he in any way cons you?

24:56You know, it's deeper than lying. I mean, of course, he's lying to my mom when he's saying he's on a camp out. Sure. But it's betrayal. It's deeper than that. You know, it's like somebody going and having an affair or something, but it's deeper than that. It's like everyday betrayal. Like I'm saying, he is so disconnected in his brain. He accepts himself. And he's like, well, you all were fine with me. Well, we didn't know. Like, hello? How do you think someone's going to react? We're all reacting like normal, sane people. We're not going to be the same with you ever. Do you ever think that to get to that point to where he's actually going to commit these crimes, that he's willing to risk everything, even you guys, the family?

25:44I just, I don't think he has that connect all the way there. He's not thinking about the consequences to our family. It's also about the fear. What do you mean? Like he said he felt empowered by my fear. So like I shared monster movies with my dad, like Frankenstein, Dracula, Jekyll and Hyde. He's really big on Jekyll and Hyde. Like he literally is Jekyll and Hyde. You know, Jack the Ripper, all that stuff. I grew up with that with my dad. So, like, in the 90s, like, we went and we saw Seven together. When we were walking out to the car, my dad wanted to know, how did it make me feel? It wasn't so much, what do you think in the movie, or is the movie good or bad?

26:23It was, how does it make you feel? Because he wanted to know, like, experience what I was feeling scared in there watching that movie. Having seen Seven, it is a pretty morbid movie. Did you feel scared watching that? Yeah, I mean, just like a scary movie will scare me. I've seen it once. It bothered me enough. I never wanted to see it again. And then after I found out with my dad that I'd seen it with him. But, I mean, I literally watched 8mm with my dad at home. Or I'm like watching Pulp Fiction with the scenes in the basement. Like, that's seared in my mind watching that with my dad. You had a reaction that, I won't see it again unless I have to, but, you know, I get it.