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You Can’t Make This Up - Episode Summary
Episode Title
Reality Check: Inside America's Next Top Model | Part 2 Host: Rebecca Lavoie Directors: Daniel Sivan and Mor Loushy Release Date: [Insert Release Date if available] Podcast Description: The incredible real stories behind the making of the biggest documentary series & films on Netflix.
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Episode Overview In this episode of *You Can't Make This Up*, host Rebecca Lavoie converses with directors Daniel Sivan and Mor Loushy about their Netflix documentary series *Reality Check: Inside America's Next Top Model*. The documentary revisits the impact and legacy of the reality TV show launched by Tyra Banks, which aimed to challenge the modeling industry's standards but ended up reinforcing some of its darkest qualities. The episode features discussions about the show's production dynamics, its controversial segments, and the evolving perspectives of those involved.
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Key Points
Overview of *America's Next Top Model*
- Launched in 2003 by Tyra Banks, the show aimed to redefine beauty standards in the fashion industry.
- Became a cultural phenomenon, captivating audiences while exposing contestants to intense competition and sometimes problematic situations.
Directors' Insights
- Daniel Sivan and Mor Loushy dove into the complexities of the show's legacy, highlighting both its groundbreaking moments in diversity and the harmful segments that emerged from its competitive format.
- They expressed fascination with the story of "misfits" and "underdogs" who participated in the show but ultimately became part of the bullying culture they originally sought to challenge.
The Impact of Social Media
- The discussion emphasizes how modern viewers, particularly on platforms like TikTok, scrutinize the show's past actions and cast members, calling for accountability and reflection.
- Tyra Banks herself acknowledged that she has reevaluated the show in light of current societal norms and criticisms.
Internal Network Dynamics
- The directors discuss the collaboration between the show's creators and the network (UPN), addressing how decisions made at the corporate level influenced the show's content and problematic dynamics.
- They reflect on the shared responsibility of the network, producers, and cast in perpetuating controversial aspects of the show.
Contestants' Experiences
- The documentary features interviews with contestants, highlighting both the opportunities the show provided and the emotional trauma it inflicted.
- Specific segments, such as challenges involving race and body image, are analyzed for their lasting impact on the contestants involved.
Moments of Controversy
- The series brought to light critical moments that did not age well, including racial insensitivity and pressure on contestants to conform to beauty standards.
- An example discussed was a challenge where contestants were made to portray different ethnicities, which sparked discomfort and controversy.
Reflection on Legacy
- The legacy of *America's Next Top Model* is deemed complex and open to debate, with both positive and negative consequences for the modeling industry and broader societal perceptions of beauty.
- The conversation underscores a hope for a more inclusive and diverse representation in the fashion industry moving forward.
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Conclusion Rebecca Lavoie wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to reflect on the themes discussed, particularly regarding accountability and the societal implications of entertainment. The episode serves as both a retrospective and a call to action for change within the entertainment industry, emphasizing the importance of learning from the past.
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Additional Resources
- For more on the legacy of *America’s Next Top Model*, visit [Tudum.com](https://tudum.com).
- Explore the true crime hub at [tudum.com/truecrime](https://tudum.com/truecrime).
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Listen to more episodes of *You Can't Make This Up* for an in-depth look at Netflix documentaries and films.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Impact of America's Next Top Model
0:45 to 2:43
Discussion about how the show aimed to redefine beauty in the modeling industry and its legacy.
“and prepare a new generation of women for their runway and magazine covers.”
Directors' Insights on Tyra Banks
2:43 to 5:01
Exploration of Tyra Banks' reflections on the show and its problematic elements.
“When we first started to working on the show, I binged how many seasons, Daniel, before we started working?”
Cultural Shifts in Modeling
5:01 to 6:45
Discussion on how America's Next Top Model changed perceptions of diversity in modeling.
“And, you know, she admits a lot of the things that, you know, that went too far.”
Behind the Scenes: The Reality Show Dynamics
6:45 to 11:23
Examination of how the show's structure and network influences affected its content.
“As to my body image, I'm happily married and I don't, you know, I mean, it's tough questions for a lot of us, you know, how society looks at beauty, how society looks at weight.”
Evolution of the Modeling Industry
11:23 to 14:02
Discussion about how social media and cultural changes have transformed the modeling landscape.
“They were extraordinary, but then the misfits became bullies.”
Evolution of the Model Image
14:02 to 15:10
Learn how the perception of models has shifted from mystique to relatability.
“I think what really changed in our society or pop culture is really the fact that a model in the early 2000s was a woman with a lot of mystique.”
Janice Dickinson's Role and Impact
15:11 to 16:37
Explore Janice Dickinson's influence and her dynamic with Tyra Banks on the show.
“And a big part of that in the casting was bringing on Janice Dickinson, right?”
Controversial Contestant Experiences
16:38 to 19:33
Delve into the transformative journey of contestants and the show's ethical dilemmas.
“I think she's very memorable of the show.”
Responsibility in Reality TV Production
19:34 to 22:21
Discuss the responsibilities of producers and the impact of their decisions on contestants.
“I think that she was ready to come and tell the story for the first time.”
Pressure of Cosmetic Procedures
22:22 to 24:59
Examine contestants' experiences with pressure to undergo dental procedures on the show.
“And I hope people will debate it and argue just as much as we did.”
Show all 19 chapters
Cultural Sensitivity and Representation Issues
25:00 to 27:11
Investigate the problematic representation of different ethnicities on the show.
“but I mean, personally, I don't think we should film anybody go through any kind of dental procedure and definitely not Ed.”
Addressing Harassment in the Modeling Industry
27:12 to 28:01
Reflect on a contestant's experiences with harassment and the lessons learned.
“I would have appreciated being helped in that situation.”
Harassment Messages in America's Next Top Model
28:01 to 29:21
Explore how the show conveys dangerous messages about harassment.
“And I think that Tara acknowledged that.”
Iconic Scene: Tyra's Meltdown
29:22 to 30:49
Discuss the famous scene of Tyra Banks yelling at Tiffany and its impact.
“There's another very famous scene in the show, probably the most famous scene from the show, where Tyra dresses down Tiffany.”
The Careers of ANTM Models
30:50 to 32:21
Analyze the career outcomes for models after appearing on ANTM.
“And it's the scene that we're starting the show with.”
Reunion and Bonds Between Judges
32:22 to 33:48
Reflect on the emotional reunion of the show's judges and their relationships.
“All the interviews you did were solo, but you have one segment at the end where you reunite Jay, Miss Jay, and Nigel.”
Speaking Their Truth: The Documentary's Impact
33:49 to 35:03
Discuss the opportunity for former judges to share their experiences in the documentary.
“I think it's pretty clear in the documentary that they don't have a close relationship or a relationship with Tyra Banks.”
Reflections on Doing It Again
35:04 to 36:21
Examine models' thoughts on whether they would participate in the show again.
“So at the end, you asked everyone whether if they could go back, would they do it again?”
Legacy of America's Next Top Model
36:22 to 38:00
Debate the lasting impact and legacy of America's Next Top Model in society.
“Yes, I think like, you know, the vast majority just said no, they would not do it again, period.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Rebecca Lavoie:I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this is You Can't Make This Up.
0:14Rebecca Lavoie:You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary series Reality Check, Inside America's Next Top Model.
0:29Mor Loushy:There were some ideas that were wrong and were not good to have and were silly, you know, quite frankly. For some reason, no one really seemed to see it.
0:37Rebecca Lavoie:Today, we're talking to directors Daniel Sivan and more Lushi. In 2003, Tyra Banks launched a reality show that would challenge the modeling industry's conception of beauty and prepare a new generation of women for their runway and magazine covers. But as America's Next Top Model became a TV sensation, the program had to outdo itself season after season, resulting in segments that put contestants in cringeworthy scenarios. All these years later, does the show have something to answer for? The Netflix documentary series Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model brings together the stars, producers, and contestants to discuss the show's success and confront its legacy of problematic segments.
1:18Rebecca Lavoie:It explores how the show, envisioned as changing the modeling industry, came to reinforce its darkest qualities. And it lets Banks and her co-stars address the criticism that their TV show did not age well. I haven't really said much. But now it's time.
1:45Rebecca Lavoie:and i'm joined by directors more lushi and danielle savan welcome back to you can't make this up thank you thank you thanks for having us so the last time i spoke to you you were talking about the manhunt to capture osama bin laden america's top fugitive this is a very different speed so what made you want to dive into America's Next Top Model?
2:05Mor Loushy:It's just such an amazing story, really. I mean, for us, it was always a story about the misfits, the underdogs, the people who really ate shit from the fashion industry and decided to fight back and change the rules. And at some point, kind of became the bullies. So for us, it's just the epiphany of all good deeds.
2:32Rebecca Lavoie:So, Maure, if you go on TikTok and other social platforms, you'll hear people say that Tyra Banks and the crew behind America's Next Top Model have a lot to answer for. Do you think that's true? We definitely asked a lot of questions.
2:48Daniel Sivan:When we first started to working on the show, I binged how many seasons, Daniel, before we started working? I binged the whole 24 seasons. And Daniel was like, Maura, stop. This is not the job. Let's prepare for the shoot. And I'm like, Daniel, I'm working. Please, let me watch 24 seasons of America's Next Top Model. And, you know, even 20 years after, the show still worked for me. I mean, I was engaged. and all the subjects that angry people, that people admired, that people were angry about, all of those also worked on me. And I definitely wanted to ask Tyra and the judges and the team all of the questions.
3:38Daniel Sivan:And I think 20 years after, I think that they were ready to speak up. They were ready to talk. They were ready to discuss. They were ready to answer on all of our questions.
3:50Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. I don't think this documentary would have been what it was without having that big Tyra Banks interview. And we hear up top from her about she says that she herself has come around to viewing America's Next Top Model in a different light. At the same time, I think she's very defensive about some of the things that were done in America's Next Top Model. And it went from this thing that everybody loves to like overnight, like just a whole different lens. Look how wrong this is. What I think is important is to understand where that came from. So what happened? How did she receive that internet feedback?
4:25Daniel Sivan:I think that she did feel, and she talks about it in the interview and in the series, that she started from a point of wanting to fight the industry, of wanting to give something different. And American Next Top Model was a culture phenomenon. For years, for years it was. And, you know, for some questions that she answered, I'm sure that she understood the feedback because of the TikTok, because of the internet, and because how the society evolved. And that's part of it. And, you know, she admits a lot of the things that, you know, that went too far. And it was 24 seasons. It was a lot. It changed the fashion industry.
5:13Daniel Sivan:It changed even us as a society. And I think part of her wanting to speak up is exactly because of all this criticism and because it was so big. Yeah.
5:25Mor Loushy:I can tell you my personal opinion. And obviously, you know, it doesn't reflect anybody else. It's just my take on it. But obviously, I think the show did a lot of things that were wrong. They were wrong back then. They were wrong today. I think they crossed lines they shouldn't have in retrospect, but also from, you know, at the time that it was broadcast, these things were wrong. And people should be held accountable to that. but I also am aware that Tyra being a woman she got a lot of heat that other showrunners didn't get I mean nobody expected Survivor to be you know an NGO to do good for the world it was just TV it was just entertainment you look at the amazing race nobody needs to answer about oh did you actually promote the people.
6:23Mor Loushy:It's very entertaining and that's it. And I do think Tyra had to answer for a lot of things that men showrunners didn't have to answer back then. She, because it's Tyra, she is looked at as, oh, you didn't really want to promote the models. But yeah, it's TV. I mean, it was always an entertaining show.
6:45Daniel Sivan:But you know, Daniel, I think it's because the subjects are so me as a woman editing the show and seeing the scissors and then also interviewing the models that really you know the interviews with the models that came to us that opened up to us with all the traumas with everything that they went through also for me as a woman to edit it it was a jarring journey. As to my body image, I'm happily married and I don't, you know, I mean, it's tough questions for a lot of us, you know, how society looks at beauty, how society looks at weight. It's things that are so personal that I think that that's why the show was so successful at the time.
7:38Daniel Sivan:And that's why coming back to it felt relevant.
7:42Rebecca Lavoie:I think that's a good point. And that really speaks to even something Tyra said when she's talking about why she wanted to create the show. There was this landscape of other reality TV, but there was a certain culture in the modeling industry that she wanted to expose. And she says that she kind of wanted to buck that culture. Daniel, can you talk about that, that the culture at the time of the modeling industry, what Tyra says she kind of wanted to expose and go against? Yeah.
8:09Mor Loushy:I mean, back at the time, the model industry, haute couture, was white, only white. There was no place for people of color, for other body sizes, for ethnicities, for any kind of diversity. And Tyra and the show really started to shake it up. I mean, they really shattered the ceiling again and again. Also, having openly gay people on TV, having gender-fluid people on TV, showing that there is more to fashion than a blonde, extremely skinny, Caucasian lady, was something that you did not see on fashion magazines. And I really do believe that America's Next Top Model showed something different and that kind of seeped into the magazines.
9:04Mor Loushy:And the fact that we can see different body sizes and ethnicities on these magazines today has a lot to do with the fact that we saw them first on America's Next Top Model.
9:16Rebecca Lavoie:Can you talk a little bit about the casting of the other characters on the show? Because we hear from people in the documentary variations on, well, you have to remember how it was back then. And, you know, often it's to explain some of the more problematic stuff. But can you describe how radical it was to cast people like J. Emanuel and Miss J on the show at that time?
9:38Daniel Sivan:I think it was groundbreaking, right? Tyra and Ken are talking about it in the series when they came to the broadcaster and told them there is an amazing, you know, guy that shows the ladies how to walk and then they brought Miss J. The broadcaster was like whoa what is it talking like Miss J.
9:59Mor Loushy:You need to be able to slinky ink down the runway. If you can't slinky ink you may look stinky stink. Acting like different characters and it was unlike anything anybody really heard.
10:10Daniel Sivan:I think it was the first time it was the first show that really showed LGBTQ community on the screen with no need for an apology. You wouldn't believe how many friends of ours, you know, when we told them during our journey that that's what we're working on now. I adored Miss J. Miss J changed my life like so many. But again, you know, I do want to say with all of that, also there was traumatic experience for the models. And we're not shying away from that in the series. I think that the models are also at the front, their experiences, you know, because yes, they had the willingness, you know, to break the industry, but it was sometimes, many times on the models back.
11:04Daniel Sivan:And to hear the experiences of the models that really came and spoke up to do those interviews, I know that we need to listen to them because it is part of changing the society is also to look back and shed light on things that work. They were extraordinary, but then the misfits became bullies. And I think that the models here are an essential part of the series. Right.
11:33Rebecca Lavoie:I do want to ask you some specific questions about some of the model interviews. One of the things that I wonder about is that, you know, how much of the cultural structure of the show that led to these problematic dynamics, it seems to somewhat have originated at the network level. You know, UPN, the sort of upstart network is the one that got this show. And you have, you know, the CEO of the network, the head of the network weighing in on these decisions that kind of trickle down. So can you talk to me, Daniel, about, you know, pitching the show, the greenlighting the show, and then the tension between the production of the show and, of course, the corporation that was broadcasting that show?
12:10Mor Loushy:All I can say is what we really heard from Ken Bok, which was the executive producer of the show, is that he had a very, very, very close and productive relationship with Don, who was the exec at UPN. And that relationship went on for many, many seasons and for many, many years. So I think both the praise and the blame should be held at all levels. The people who cooperated, collaborated with the show were the network, were the EPs, were Tyra herself and obviously the judges and everybody on set. And when things were wrong, everybody knew they were wrong. And when things prevailed, everybody enjoyed the success.
12:59Mor Loushy:I don't think anyone can say I was not aware or I did not see or, you know, oh, this happened without my knowledge or because I received orders. I think they all tried to do great TV and it came on the backs of a lot of women and a lot of pain. Yeah.
13:20Rebecca Lavoie:Maura, how much of that is because of this conceit of the show that it's not a competition show exclusively, it's also a reality show, you know, sort of like in the vein of the real world that also had the women in a candid light in their personal time. So that was part of the formula, that was part of the pitch, but that was also part of the problem, was it not? Exactly.
13:43Daniel Sivan:You know, they thought that they're coming to start a career in modeling. They thought that they have opportunities. The doors will be open because of that show to the modeling world. But, you know, it was a mix of that. It was also their careers, but it was more TV. It was more a reality show. They needed to make a great television.
14:06Mor Loushy:I think what really changed in our society or pop culture is really the fact that a model in the early 2000s was a woman with a lot of mystique. You didn't really know anything about her. She was just this perfect image. She woke up with makeup and she was always lit in very soft light. and today a model is someone on Instagram that looks exactly like us and she has pimples and bad skin and she wakes up with no makeup and she shows us in front of the camera how she had a horrible day and she shows us how she's applying makeup and this exposure is something very new today hey, you can't be famous if you're not opening up and showing people the backstage.
15:02Mor Loushy:It's not enough to show the magazine cover. And back then, if you showed the backstage, you were burnt.
15:09Rebecca Lavoie:Right. You know, Maury, you just said something about the pressure to make good TV. And a big part of that in the casting was bringing on Janice Dickinson, right? So there seemed to be some on-screen tension between her and between Tyra Banks. Janice Dickinson represented the old school modeling industry. How she was spoken to was how she would speak to the contestants. Can you talk about her role on the show, her relationship with the other hosts, and how that sort of shifted the dynamic of the whole thing?
15:38Daniel Sivan:So we interviewed all the models, you know, and Janice is so interesting as to the models, because we heard so much mixed things. You know, we heard that she was very spicy on screen, but then sometimes behind the screen, she was the one that were giving the hugs to the models. But there was definitely a tension, and we talk about this tension in the series between Tyra and between Janice and between, of course, J. Manuel.
16:12Mor Loushy:I love Janice. Like, she was very outrageous as a character.
16:16Rebecca Lavoie:This is the worst photograph I've ever seen. You look deranged, and it looks like you have a penis.
16:21Mor Loushy:She had no filter.
16:23Rebecca Lavoie:You got to work on the thighs. You got the booty thing. You got to kind of really watch the diet and exercise. It's not all about your gorgeous face. It is about the booty too.
16:31Daniel Sivan:You know, and she was great television genus. I mean, she truly was a character. I think she's very memorable of the show. Very genuine. She says everything that she thinks about. And it's fascinating. But there was definitely attention there.
16:56Rebecca Lavoie:We heard from many contestants from throughout the years, including Shandi Sullivan. She had this incredible transformation. I watched this show in real time. I remember it. She referred to herself as this ugly duckling, you know, worked at the Walgreens. And then she talked about this night in Milan after her transformation where she got really intoxicated. She had a sexual encounter with a male model and had to confess on camera to her boyfriend over the phone. There's a lot to unpack here because I think there's a conversation about consent that the show America's Next Top Model didn't address.
Read the full transcript
17:28Rebecca Lavoie:But first you asked several people whether the production crew should have intervened. I do remember her story. It's a little difficult for me to talk about production because that's not my territory.
17:40Mor Loushy:Was there ever a sense of like, hey, we need to turn the cameras off? You know, we treated Top Model as a documentary. And we told the girls that.
17:49Rebecca Lavoie:Were you satisfied with the answers that you heard in that questioning?
17:54Mor Loushy:I mean, all I can say is, you know, there's a lot of gray area when you talk about reality TV. This issue with Shadi had no gray area. It was wrong. It was repulsive. It should never have been filmed or broadcast. I think after getting out of the hot tub and like whatever happened after that, I think they should have fucking like been like, all right, this has gone too far. Like we got to, we got to pull her out of this. I think the responsibility lies with everybody. I mean, I think it lies with the network and the producers and the people that were there on the ground and the editors later, you know.
18:43Mor Loushy:and also her federal models that should have stopped it and stood in. And then later on, the viewers that should have written horrible letters to the network saying this should never have been shown. And I hope a scene like that would never happen today because I hope people would have the courage to stand up. Who knows? I mean, people keep silent in the most awful situations. and I hope this scene will make people be more confident about voicing. When things are wrong, people should stand up and say so.
19:21Daniel Sivan:It was definitely the toughest interview. One of the most difficult interviews that I did in my life. She really touched my heart, Shemdi. She did. I think that she was ready to come and tell the story for the first time. and she wanted to shed a light on what happened and how traumatic this event was.
19:48Mor Loushy:I really tried. I mean, he moved with me to New York after the show. But it would suck when I'd be walking with Eric down the street and somebody recognized me and called me a slut to my face. Or a cheating whore. Eric standing right next to me. That was fun. It made me hate myself.
20:10Daniel Sivan:We came here to tell the story. We had to ask these questions from the judges. Yeah, the answers were, you know, it's really hard to say exactly.
20:22Rebecca Lavoie:We know famously, at least in one other reality show recently, Below Deck, producers did actually intervene when a situation sort of similar to this happened. But we hear in your documentary, somebody say that they thought of themselves as documentarians when they're also doing edits to create characters on the show. Do you think that is another point of view that's fair to say we're making something, we're trying to show everything or just a hard red line that you just cannot imagine ever crossing?
20:53Mor Loushy:I don't buy any of that. When you are, as a documentary filmmaker, see someone get beat up on the street, you put your camera down and you go lend them a hand. You don't enjoy watching it because you don't intervene or you don't interfere. You should always intervene when something wrong is happening.
21:17Rebecca Lavoie:So Tyra said that she wanted to break the mold of the kind of models the industry would give opportunities to. But often the feedback from the panel of judges was no one will hire you if you weigh too much, if you have too wide of a gap in your teeth, if you stand up for yourself on the set, as we also saw happened during filming. So do you get the impression more after all of that that they actually were trying to break the mold of the modeling industry?
21:46Daniel Sivan:It's a good question. It's a good question. You know, when I asked Tyra, you know, she said that that was the tools that she had in her pocket back in the day to really try and help them. Was she helping them or was it just a good television with spicy lines and good drama and joking on their backs? And that's a question that I would love that every viewer would ask himself when he's watching our doc series.
22:18Mor Loushy:I can tell you that we constantly argued about it once a day throughout the whole process of making it. And I hope people will debate it and argue just as much as we did.
22:31Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. I mean, several people tried to explain certain decisions by saying, you know, you can't look at this through the modern lens. That was the time. Things were acceptable at the time. Is that the same as admitting that you were wrong?
22:42Daniel Sivan:I think that they did admit that they were wrong in many cases. I think that in some cases, I think, and I think that, you know, once they did the decision to come and give an interview about it, I'm sure that it was on their minds that some things they also need to take responsibility for them. And I think that also the judges shared their journey with us and their journey also wasn't always up. It was up and down and up and down. And I think that once they decided that they're going to do it, I'm sure that they understood that some things they also need to take responsibility about. And they did.
23:24Daniel Sivan:I don't know if to the extent that any viewer or any model would have want to. I'm not sure. You can ask our models, but it was part of it.
23:34Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. I want to talk about the dentistry because we had seen makeovers on the show before, but it always referred to hair and makeup. Yep. And then there was this memorable season where suddenly the women were having medical procedures. And you spoke to both Danielle and Joni, who were the recipients of these procedures. Did they regret ultimately being pressured into these dental procedures?
23:59Mor Loushy:So I can tell you that for Joni, it was a dream come true. She absolutely adored what she got. Like for her, it was a prize. And she loved it. There were many orthodontic problems that were never fixed. I've still got a crazy bite issue and those issues will never be resolved. It was fucked up. But at the end of the day, I was a grown adult woman with teeth I thought I would never fix. So I felt like I won the lottery, really. And obviously for Danny, it was pure peer pressure and it's absolutely horrific. So if I decide to keep you, are you going to get your gap closed? and then that's when I was like, so what you're saying to me is, if I don't get my gap closed, you're going to send me home.
24:47Daniel Sivan:Get them teeth done. All the way. I think all the way. Congratulations. You're still in the running towards becoming America's next top model.
24:57Mor Loushy:It's two very different perspectives, but I mean, personally, I don't think we should film anybody go through any kind of dental procedure and definitely not Ed.
25:09Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. And definitely not for a TV show. And definitely not maybe doing all that stuff in one session. Doesn't seem like a very good idea.
25:17Daniel Sivan:Exactly. You know, but for Dani, it was traumatic. For Dani, it was huge decision, you know, because many of these girls, that was the opportunity for them. Right. Some of these girls had nothing to lose and to use it for great television is very, very wrong.
25:37Rebecca Lavoie:Very wrong. Well, let's talk about another scene in the show that doesn't age well. Famously, there's this challenge where all the models are made up to look like different ethnicities. And what was interesting to me was that almost everybody who interviewed said they were somewhat uncomfortable with it at the time, but yet they did it again. So what are your thoughts about that setup and how people reflected on it?
26:03Mor Loushy:I mean, I think it speaks for itself. I mean, there are a lot of moments in the show and in life in which you know something is wrong. And yet you do it. And you do it for selfish reasons. You do it because of peer pressure. And I think this is one of these examples in which people, everybody knew this should never have been done. But hell, you know, the producers are asking for it. Should we now start an argument? Should I quit? I could tell I was just like double swallowing. And I just had to do my job. Tiffany, you're going to be Native American. Brittany, an African-American woman. Kenya, Korean.
26:52Mor Loushy:And Noel, we're making you into a traditionally African woman with a head wrap and everything. And people cooperate and, you know, do what's asked of them. And deep inside, they know it's the wrong thing to do.
27:06Rebecca Lavoie:Right. I'm thinking about what happened to Kenya Hill, who, by my measure, did everything right to protect herself. She was uncomfortable. She said so. She said later, I was uncomfortable. I would have appreciated being helped in that situation. I didn't get the response that I thought I was going to get. the looks on their faces were just like, how dare you stop our production? But the message to her seemed to be that complaining about sexual harassment is bad for your career. Now, of course, as a model, because there are sets, there are lots of people around, but also I found myself thinking, isn't that just the message to young women that the show was conveying?
27:46Daniel Sivan:It's one of the scenes that us as women, I think it's one of the more important scenes that we can learn from them. Because she did do everything right. And that was the answer that she got. And I think that Tara acknowledged that. And I think that it's an important scene for us. We knew that we want that scene in the show.
28:11Mor Loushy:I just really want people to look at it and understand that this is not a story about a photo shoot or about modeling. This was a message that was broadcast to hundreds of millions of people back then, saying, if you are working in an office and somebody harasses you, you need to play along because, you know, you can't break the office atmosphere. Any woman, doesn't matter if you're young or you're elderly, that gets harassed should play along because you don't want to disrupt the atmosphere. And it can be a business atmosphere or it can be a social atmosphere. Just suck it up. And I think that's such an extremely dangerous message.
29:06Mor Loushy:and I don't know how many people watched it and were affected and looked at it and were like, oh, so next time this happens to me, I should play along. I think that's one of the most dangerous messages that were conveyed in the show.
29:22Rebecca Lavoie:There's another very famous scene in the show, probably the most famous scene from the show, where Tyra dresses down Tiffany.
29:29Mor Loushy:I have never in my life yelled at a girl like this. When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you? Tyra really scared all of us. Like we literally jumped out of our seats. What is happening right now?
29:45Rebecca Lavoie:Now, one of the things I think we forget is that Tiffany was actually responding to a very problematic thing that she was being asked to do and the other models were being judged on their ability to read words they were unfamiliar with. But that scene really stands out. And it's one that got a lot of reaction on social media. What does Tyra say about that moment today? First of all, watch the show.
30:07Daniel Sivan:It was a tough moment for her as well. It was the most memorable moment, I think, from the whole 24 seasons, that it was a meltdown for her as well. You know, I'm not saying that it was right. And I think that everybody was scared on set. You know, it's something that affected everyone. And when I asked Tyra, what was your toughest moment? She answered, what was the toughest moment for you while filming the show? Toughest moment. Tiffany, maybe. I'm thinking that. That was very tough for me. Yeah. Yeah. It was that moment. And it's the scene that we're starting the show with. It's the most memorable scene of the whole 24 seasons, of course.
30:57Rebecca Lavoie:I was surprised to hear Daniel J. say that there was a lot more that Tyra said that didn't make it into the final cut. I'm not going to ask you to reveal what that may have been. But is that something?
31:08Daniel Sivan:No, I still want to know. Okay, me too. After we turn off the cameras, please tell me. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. No, nobody knows.
31:18Rebecca Lavoie:I don't. I hope I would. Okay, I'm very glad to hear that because I was very curious as well. So the main reason that people go on a show like American Idol or Top Chef is that they think it can give them a big leg up in their careers and their futures. So did you get any stories of models thriving after going on America's Next Top Model?
31:39Mor Loushy:I mean, yes, there were a bunch. And statistically speaking, the show was not effective. I mean, statistically speaking, most of the models that made it on the show were branded as reality TV stars, which back at the time was an insult. It wasn't a good jumping board for them to become models, to start a career. And not only they're aware of it today, but also Ken Mock and Tyra are also aware of it. this was not the right way of becoming America's Next Top Model. You might as well have not been on that show.
32:22Rebecca Lavoie:All the interviews you did were solo, but you have one segment at the end where you reunite Jay, Miss Jay, and Nigel. What was the energy on the set when they all came together? It was special.
32:35Daniel Sivan:It was special, you know, because Miss Jay has been through so much in the past few years.
32:41Mor Loushy:It has been a journey. and you're speaking so much better now. Yeah. You are battling through. When we first saw you in that hospital, you could hardly move, hardly talk. And now you're sitting up doing an interview, chatting, talking, rolling your eyes, making us laugh.
32:57Daniel Sivan:It was emotional. It was emotional. They cried. They came to support Miss J, I think, that day. It felt like it's a gratitude for him. From the three of them reuniting after everything that Miss Jay was going through. And he came to set and he was spicy as ever and wonderful as we remembered him. And it was very emotional.
33:25Mor Loushy:And they are still very, very close, regardless of the cameras. I mean, they have been close throughout all the years of the show and all the years that followed. And they're there for each other. And that friendship is really, that's an inspiration. I mean, it's amazing that these people didn't like detach. Everybody went to his own place, but they're in constant contact. And that's beautiful.
33:53Rebecca Lavoie:I think it's pretty clear in the documentary that they don't have a close relationship or a relationship with Tyra Banks. We do see footage of them, the three of them together after being fired, giving a very awkward interview where Jay says that he felt like he couldn't say things that were true because he wanted to be professional. Do you think that this documentary gave them an opportunity to tell their truth? I mean, they still come across as very professional, I think, and very gracious, but did it give them that opportunity to say what they couldn't say all those years ago? I think so.
34:23Daniel Sivan:I'm sure, of course, absolutely. You know, they wanted to speak their story. I think it's the first time that they decided that they're speaking up together as a group. I think that it was a decision for the three judges to understand that they're doing it. And in such a stage as Netflix, I'm sure it wasn't a light decision for them. I'm very happy that they did it because I think that their story is out there. It's important. I'm sure that they needed a closure. And I'm also happy that Tyra, you know, agreed to give us an interview and to speak up. And I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision for her as well.
35:11Rebecca Lavoie:So at the end, you asked everyone whether if they could go back, would they do it again? Maura, whose answer surprised you the most? Hmm.
35:21Daniel Sivan:I think that most of them said that they wouldn't do it again, right? Like most of them. But I think that most of the models were also saying, you know, this was a part of my life. This is a huge part of my life. That is part of the journey that I've been through. This is part of who I am today with all the good, with all the bad, with all the ugly. Like Danny says, it's part of what shaped them as human beings, you know? So I think it's also, it's a tough question because obviously if they were 20 today and they knew what to expect, maybe they wouldn't do it again. But after everything that happened, I think it shaped them to be the amazing women that they are.
36:04Daniel Sivan:And so it's, yeah, it's a complicated question. Ah, you know who surprised us? It's Ken Mock.
36:12Mor Loushy:Yeah, I mean, it was surprising to hear from Ken that like he would not recommend his daughters to go on a show like that. Right. But for him, obviously, it's not because the show is traumatic in any kind of way, but he believes in hard work and not a prize competition. Yes, I think like, you know, the vast majority just said no, they would not do it again, period.
36:41Rebecca Lavoie:In the end, what do you think is the legacy of America's Next Top Model?
36:46Mor Loushy:I think the legacy is up for debate. I think that's the beauty of it. For us, it's really about you tell us.
36:55Daniel Sivan:Yeah, I think, again, like I said before, the image body, weight, beauty, how society look at you, it's still an essential part of our life. Of me, of me, you know, I'm over 40 and I just did a keto diet. I don't know why.
37:15Rebecca Lavoie:you know so it's you didn't just tell us you watched all 24 seasons of the show and i did
37:21Daniel Sivan:and i did you know i did and i think this legacy is up for debate i think that very cliche that we should all love ourselves and believe in ourselves for who we are and not for beauty but obviously the industry the commercials that we see reflects us and i do hope that the fashion industry, that the people that we see on the screen would be diverse, would give everybody a voice, that everybody in the world can identify with his identity, with who is on the screen in the fashion industry and everywhere. That will be diverse people, that not all of us should be skinny and not all of us should look the same and to be patient and loving for each other.
38:14Rebecca Lavoie:Well, the doc series is Reality Check, Inside America's Next Top Model. More Lushi and Daniel Sivan, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast to talk to me about it.
38:23Mor Loushy:It was a pleasure.
38:25Rebecca Lavoie:Thank you, Rebecca.
38:26Mor Loushy:Thank you.
38:28Rebecca Lavoie:That's it for this week's episode. Thanks again to Daniel Sivan and more Lushi. Dig deeper into all your favorite Netflix documentaries and films at Tudum.com. There, you can read even more about the legacy of America's Next Top Model. And browse our True Crime Hub at tadoom.com slash truecrime. For more of my takes, check out my other podcast, Crime Writers On. Each week on that show, we break down the latest in true crime documentaries, TV shows, podcasts, and pop culture. If you like You Can't Make This Up, please rate and review this show and share it with friends. Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you get your podcasts.
39:02Rebecca Lavoie:And make sure to follow the show to stay tuned for all new episodes. You Can't Make This Up is a co-production of Netflix and Partners in Crime Media. I'm Rebecca Lavoie. Thanks so much for listening.
39:35Thank you.
From the publisher
Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model brings together the stars, producers, and contestants to discuss the show’s success and confront its legacy of problematic segments. The Netflix documentary series explores how the show, envisioned as changing the modeling industry, came to re-enforce its darkest qualities. And it lets Tyra Banks and her co-stars address the criticism that their TV show did not age well.
In this episode of You Can't Make This Up, host Rebecca Lavoie interviews directors Daniel Sivan and Mor Loushy.
SPOILER ALERT! If you haven't watched Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model yet, make sure to add it to your watch-list before listening on.
Dig deeper into all of your favorite Netflix documentaries and films at tudum.com. There you can read even more about the legacy of “America’s Next Top Model.”
Check our true crime hub at tudum.com/truecrime. Listen to more from Netflix Podcasts.