Sean Combs: The Reckoning | part 2

0:00I'm Rebecca Lavoie, and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take an even closer look at the Netflix documentary series, Sean Combs' The Reckoning. The legal troubles for longtime entertainment mogul Sean Diddy Combs have been building for months. Diddy is facing another loss. Don Rashard from Dirty Money. Doing Sean Diddy Combs for alleged assault. Combs' lawyers said these complaints are full of lies. Today we're talking to Capricorn Clark. For decades, musical mogul Sean Puffy Combs shaped careers and stirred controversy.

0:51Some artists soared to stardom under his influence, while others claimed they were scarred by it. Several of those voices took the stand at his federal trial, demanding accountability. In July, Combs was convicted of two counts under the Mann Act and acquitted of RICO and sex trafficking charges. The jury's mixed verdict has left many unsettled. In our latest look at the Netflix documentary series, Sean Combs, The Reckoning, we'll hear from Combs' former personal assistant, Capricorn Clark. She talks about her complex working relationship with Combs, the difficulties of coming forward with her story, what it was like to face him in federal court, and her reaction to the jurors who said in the series that she was not a convincing witness.

1:34I think the whole juror, the room, felt that that question mark pop up.

1:52Capricorn Clark, welcome to You Can't Make This Up. Thank you for having me. What has been the reaction from people to Netflix's Sean Combs' The Reckoning? It varies from shocked to angry to confused and not so much confused about the content, but confused about their place with their thoughts coming from seeing it.

2:16Capricorn Clark:I think it's been interesting to see how many thoughts there are in the world, which is I think what Alex set out to do was to spark a conversation. So I've just been hearing pieces of those conversations and it seems to vary. Like, you know, I don't think it's a bad conversation. I think it was an overdue conversation. These have been difficult things for you to talk about publicly. Why did you agree to contribute to the series? I think, honestly, we weren't given a proper platform before. Federal trial is very, first of all, you can't see it. So you're playing telephone with various sources that are sitting in that room.

2:59Moreover, you're constantly being objected to what is going to come out of your mouth. So there's a lot of start and stop.

3:06Capricorn Clark:And I don't feel like information properly flows. And that was obviously my first time in a trial or in a court, to be honest, like that. But I felt that it was very prohibitive of being able to tell a story properly. We spoke to director Alexandria Stapleton on the podcast. What made you comfortable sharing your experiences working with her? Well, Alex and I had a really long conversation and I really liked the story she wanted to tell. She was very convincing with the way she wanted to go about it with a very honest journalistic approach versus what perhaps we've been victim of historically with him and recently with him, where it's more salacious and angle driven, more so than just someone hearing it out and letting it be as it is.

3:59Capricorn Clark:And I think she succeeded with what her promise was when she asked me if I would do it. Tell us about your life before you worked for Sean Combs. I was a bubbly California girl. I moved to New York after doing a bunch of jobs out here. And, you know, I worked at Def Jam for a moment. I worked in films doing costuming and set dressing. And all my friends were like, you need to go to New York. You'd be fantastic out there. You have a lot of energy. And so I went out there, got with Headhunter, eventually landed at an advertising agency. and my first couple of years, I was just well kept, if you will, with a wonderful bunch of human beings that lived in New York City and were thriving in the advertising world.

4:43Capricorn Clark:And they taught me how to sell ideas versus products. And I think that it was sort of another key into how I, you know, was this Jane of all trades when I went to work. But I really enjoyed working in advertising. I felt like we were doing great things and making lasting art that was really creating emotional touch points. So, you know, I'm just a nerd for like making cool things and trying to create lifestyle and betterment, you know. And so that's what I was doing before. How did you get the job as Combs personal assistant? Was it like getting hired for any other job? Did you have a typical job interview and everything?

5:22Yeah.

5:23Capricorn Clark:Actually, I got a call from a headhunter. I had transitioned to Crossroads, which is a film company making, you know, movies. And The Headhunter, I had put my resume online after September 11 because advertising had taken a major hit, especially in the two zones we were most working in, which was travel and finance in New York City, you know. And they said, you fit the criteria of what we need for this, you know, tycoon entertainer. And I knew him socially. And I asked the girls, I said, are you talking about Sean Combs? And they were like, yeah. So I called him. And then I went through the typical steps.

5:56I was like, I got a call, you know, and he was like, can you meet a couple of my vice presidents X, Y, Z? And so it was it was very, you know, normal, if you will, once I figured out that someone was trying to get me to have that job. You talked in the series about your first day on the job. What was that like? It was scary.

6:16Capricorn Clark:However, it let me know that I need to be more transparent with my personal things. I was a young girl. I'm 22 at the time, probably maybe just turned 22. I didn't think me having a best friend that was related to death row and all of these things really mattered because I wasn't a part of a bad thing. That's just my friend. And I was coming from my mother having died and she really made sure I was OK. so the relationship was completely different I didn't think I needed to tell the sky I was socially cool with but in retrospect given how scary that night was and how I didn't sense fear in him but I did sense something beneath the surface that was a lasting thing whatever it was I had come into play with something that was scary for him not necessarily he was scared up if you will.

7:10Capricorn Clark:And so I think that it made me be very transparent and very honest with him. And I think, you know, I think when you hear in the edit that that's what got his trust, I think it just made me very above line with everything I did just to never have such a, you know, an uncomfortable moment again. So when did things start to sour for you? It was a myriad of sour points. I left, which is not, you know, obviously you can't tell my individual story in the documentary, but I left for a moment. When I came back in different job titles, he just wanted me to work. He just wanted me to do good things here for the company that I wouldn't have to be put through such things again.

7:56And so it was a stiff arm when I came back. So once I left in 2006, I was very cognizant. But I think he was also on his P's and Q's about what would take place around me and what I would see.

8:08Capricorn Clark:Because if you lose me, you're going to lose someone that is fall carrying, if that makes sense. In a very integral time between 2004 and 2008, where you're going from millionaire to billionaire, I'm fall carrying. Do you want to risk that? I don't think so. So I think it was a calibrator, if you will, for both of us a little bit. So whenever we saw Cassie in public, she would put on a brave face. What was your impression of the real Cassie? I think my impression of the real Cassie is it's a little different for me because she came into the label younger. As I recall it and I see it, she was around 21 because we had the same birthday when they kind of started dating.

8:52Cassie came into play in 2006. She was so young, 19 years old. Hi, my name is Cassie, and I grew up in New London, Connecticut. I moved to New York when I was 18 to pursue a dream of being in the entertainment industry.

9:13Capricorn Clark:I think she was a nice girl who got in way over her head and was such a, what's the word, beguiling type guy. You know, I think she lost sight of how much she was worth. And I think that started to slowly become evident in her behavior and the way she would carry herself over time. And the sweetness just started to disappear as time, you know. And, you know, we weren't really talking about those things. His personal life is something that we weren't allowed to discuss. And you don't really you don't really trust discussing it either because it'll get back to him. So I think nice girl lost her way.

9:53What was your reaction the first time you saw that elevator video of the two of them?

9:58Capricorn Clark:I thought, oh, well, I've seen this in person. It was exactly what I saw in person to the fact that he didn't have clothes on, you know, that he was post shower vibes or whatever. It was surreal. And I thought, oh, maybe now, because, you know, in silos, people know I've talked to people. But I thought finally people will see. And it was such a turn when you see something with your own eyes versus hearing it out of someone's mouth that the weight just, whoo, I told you. But it changed and it created some level of belief and it taught me something about people. You absolutely need to see something for yourself sometimes to even craft the thought to believe.

10:40Capricorn Clark:it. So it was difficult to watch though, right? I mean, yeah, absolutely. It was horrible to watch. It was sad for me because it was so many years after I left and I had already seen the same thing. So I'm literally counting the amount of beatings she must have taken between 2011 and the date of that. What was interesting is when I started to map it out, that is maybe like two three months after that is when she and I started he let us work together again and so I think that it was just really hard to see because I think I did as much as I could to like get her out of that it's just heartbreaking you don't you don't want to see anyone for that fact but somebody that you know and at one point would have considered a friend to be beaten like a rag doll and for him to be so typical of himself, just aggressive the whole time.

11:38Capricorn Clark:It was traumatizing, but the whole thing, honestly, had been quite traumatizing. People wonder why you stayed with Combs so long and returned to work for him after leaving him. So what do you say to them? I thought, okay, the fact I don't want to deal with them because it's just toxicity, right? But if I want to ever work again, I might need to show as visually as possible, hey, you see that I'm doing this again. I must be hireable again. It just dug it into a deeper hole. So I went back in order to be able to work for anybody, if that makes sense. And the power structure in the music industry is very different.

12:24It's just a hard thing for people to not understand power and how it works.

12:30Capricorn Clark:And, you know, these four hours does a really good job of trying to start to break surface on the power structures, especially when you're rich. But when you pair money and fame, it's so crazy. The documentary uncovers it leaf by leaf, how it's working. And then by episode four, power is working on the jury. It is working on you. It is working on your takeaway. way. I'm grateful that this has happened just to begin to have people have the POV. You don't really get this lens very much into this level of life to the 1 % of the 1%. And, you know, you have to tread lightly and you have to, you know, this has been for me a very patient process.

13:14So the more the general public understands about power and the dynamics, I think the better it will get for People like myself, like Cassie, like everyone involved who had to, like Kurt Burroughs, who had to just sit and deal with it because you guys want to still go to the party.

13:35You testified at the federal trial. Were you at all reluctant to come forward in that forum and tell your truth?

13:42Capricorn Clark:Yes and no. Yes, because it's I'm a Virgo and it's such a staggering. not only are you talking to the jury, but you're talking to him. It was a lot to process. And I've been through some situations. It was very daunting. The craziest part, and I told somebody this the other day, I said, while we were there for his trial, it felt like we were on trial. The energy felt like we were on trial. What do you remember about entering the courtroom that day and facing Sean Combs? I remember trying to catch a glimpse because I knew I had to identify her. So I wanted to see what color sweater he had from the back because I really didn't want to get into this with him.

14:24Capricorn Clark:Because once he gets you here, you might lose a thought. So I wanted to take him what I would need to do. I never looked at him much. But every time I caught the glance of him in the corner of my eye, he would make me cry. I cried a lot in there because I was like, this is a nightmare. You look like a fucking walking corpse, Puff. I'm hearing some disgusting stuff and I have to re-traumatize myself about what you took from me. But what happened to you? There's no one coming to see you once you sit there. So I was just bracing myself for having to go into some very embarrassing parts of my history that were not known ever.

15:10Hmm. You testified in federal court about the way Combs treated you. What did you say in your testimony? I would say how he treated me. Sometimes it was nice. A lot of times it was bad.

15:24Capricorn Clark:It depends on what job description you're talking about. It was the worst when I was his assistant in terms of work and sleep and demand and what was on me to have to do on a day to day basis. I was working seven days a week, 20 hours a day. Then, you know, I was able to distance myself from him and really just work on the brands and the beverages, implementing what it was we were there to do. It was fun. At first, he was my friend. But what you don't hear about my first day is he told me on my first day, hey, Kat, we won't always get to be friends. OK, I get it. You'll be my boss, whatever. But I was like, at the end of the day, will we be friends?

16:08Capricorn Clark:And he was like, yeah, obviously. That didn't prove true. But, you know. There were two jurors featured in the series that explained some of their reasoning, and they talked about your testimony. What was your reaction when you heard what they had to say about your time on the stand? But I trust my intuition and that's exactly one billion percent what they were giving me up there. When your parents die, you know, when you're like a teenager, you have to turn up your ability to read rooms and read situations because now you're a front man to your life. And when I was sitting there, you know, before going into the trial, I was debating, like, who am I going to be talking to?

16:51Capricorn Clark:So I said, I'm going to be talking to the prosecutor of a defense attorney, but I'm going to be looking at the jury. So I'm looking at them the whole time. I was, I think it was like six or eight hours I was up there. All I'm doing is reading each person's body language in their eyes and everything because that's what I do. The S is know what's going on in the room. And everything they say is exactly what they were communicating to me. She's remembering these events more than a decade ago. And with the emotion attached to it, maybe the details are skewed. But the problem is that that just leaves room for doubt.

17:33That's where her credibility became an issue, I think. you know, some of the emotion is coming from, imagine you sitting there like this and you're like, this happened to me and blah, blah, blah. And they're like this, hmm. You know, somebody, is there a word for this? Subject to the views. Like, you know what I mean? So, and I am doing the math in my head. I'm like, if Warren 232, why is this in a 12? All of you are giving this and he's giving that. This is that. And I, I felt it. I saw it. Um, God works in mysterious ways for her to confirm. She was very readable in there. I just remember her, if I could hear her mind, it was like, hurry up.

18:15I don't believe you. You know, I don't know. That might be my specialty mind reading a little bit. So it was vindicating to see. I know it sounds crazy, but it's like, yeah, you guys can use your deductive reasoning here. This is what myself, Cassandra, and every Everybody was up against pure hate, absolute admiration and disdain for women. And that was it. You could cut it with scissors in there. And, you know, they're closest to us. The jury box is closest to the witness box.

18:51Capricorn Clark:I just can't believe that they had the audacity to just say the truth. It was crazy. That was crazy. Why do you think they, the jurors, weren't convinced by you? I think that they were fans. I think that obviously the female juror was a huge fan. I am of that generation who basically grew up listening to the music that he was involved in from Biggie to 112. I even like Day 26. Who's a fan of Day 26? You are a big fan. Number two, the other gentleman on there has archaic, patriarchal values. That's just an observation. That was a very, very interesting relationship. It's two people in love. You know, they are like overly loved.

19:48You cannot explain. She wanted to be with him. He took her for granted. He never thought that she'd leave her. So it's like both hands clapping together. You cannot clap with one hand. The both hands like this, then you get the noise. You couldn't hear what anyone was saying because you never looked at us. You never gave us the time of day. Regardless of me, how can you discredit every single person that came right after me

20:16Capricorn Clark:to fulfill the story and tell you the rest of the parts that you didn't get? But it just let me know that we were up against typical pup meandering. However, he did it. We are used to that. We are used to people siding with him. That has been the case. And it's self-evident there. Everyone has always sided with him. There's an issue that goes beyond this case in that courtroom, which is the way women's experiences in pain are discounted. A witness either cries too much or not enough, so they shouldn't be believed. Do you wonder what the jury would have thought of your testimony if you were a man?

20:56Um, yeah, I think they would have cared a little more. If I was a celerity, I would have been, oh, what was, what was that? You could just tell, oh, she, wow, she went back. Do, do, do, do, do. You're like, what are you guys hearing? And this seems like you're basing every single thought you have about your personal belief system. And unfortunately, we are in the sewer of belief systems here. And I think that women, obviously, we've been treated this way forever. It hasn't gotten any better. In fact, I think it's gotten worse. And I think this trial shows you that. And I think it's self-evident when you get to episode four.

21:42You're like, there wasn't even a reasonable person there. That could be fair still. We weren't afforded that, but we're never afforded anything. You know, they talk about it in childbirth. We'll say we're hurt and they'll say it's just typical. It's not typical. Something is going on. The fact about that is we've all been lied to.