Sean Combs: The Reckoning | part 3

0:00Rebecca Lavoie:I'm Rebecca Lavoie, and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15Rebecca Lavoie:You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take another look at the Netflix documentary series Sean Combs' The Reckoning. P. Diddy's been sued a bunch of times before, but by his best friend, make that former friend, Kirk Burroughs, he's even the godfather of one of Combs' sons. Yep, that's show business. Today we're talking to series contributor Kirk Burroughs. Sean Puffy Combs built an empire that reshaped music, fashion, and celebrity culture. In July, Combs was convicted of two counts under the Mann Act and acquitted of RICO and sex trafficking charges.

0:53Rebecca Lavoie:But as his trial forced a re-examination of his legacy, the voices of those who once helped construct that empire re-emerged. They spoke of how Combs treated them in business and in their personal relationships. Though the public was shocked by the allegations against the hip-hop mogul, some who knew him were not surprised. The Netflix series Sean Combs, The Reckoning, uses powerful interviews and behind-the-scenes footage to tell Puffy's story from restless kid to federal defendant. Former business partner Kirk Burroughs discusses what it was like to build a record label with Combs and his life after their acrimonious split.

1:30Rebecca Lavoie:He also gives his reaction to the documentary and the comments of those who saw things the world didn't. I was the first to call it. But I was looked on as, that has to be a lie.

1:54Rebecca Lavoie:And I'm joined now by Kirk Burroughs, contributor to Sean Combs, The Reckoning. Kirk, thank you so much for joining me on You Can't Make This Up. Thank you, Rebecca. Thanks for the invitation. So you were Sean Combs' one-time business partner. You have a perspective on this story that nobody else has. Why did you want to participate in this documentary series? Because of that unique position, the startup, the very beginning, and my experience during that time, that sort of mirrored some of the things that has come out within the last few years, the accusations, the situations. it was almost like it was a throwback to a bad memory and it was triggering.

2:39But at the same time, it was something that even during the time that I was there and my fight back and the situation that I was involved in, how I was not able to really, I was not victorious during that time. I was actually shuttled out of the game and pushed to the side. And in seeing some of the things that have happened recently to some of the more recent victims, I was able to relate.

3:12Rebecca Lavoie:Director Alexandra Stapleton has been praised for how she put this series together. What made you comfortable sharing your experiences with her in the way that you did? Oh, wow. I can talk about her all day. and all night and for the rest of this year, actually, she has been, well, first of all, she's a wonderful human being. And with that, there's a sense of ease and comfort. I never felt a rough patch or anything that was an upset or a bump in the road. I was handled with kid gloves and she's wonderful. The production team, all were A1 professionals. She has a way about her that is perfect for dealing with subject matters that are difficult and maybe dealing with people who may have to find words to express what they've gone through.

4:12And she has been able through the time that I've talked with her, it was sort of like therapy. And that's how comfortable she made me feel. she's wonderful another good thing about her is that she has not yet said goodbye and that's a wonderful trait for her as a human you know after speaking to people about some of the most I guess horrible things that could have ever happened to them in their lives most triggering things there's a certain closeness that you have with that person and in all of our conversations especially near the wrap of everything production-wise, she was very careful to never say goodbye.

4:57And she still has not said that yet. So I feel that I am still connected to her. And what a wonderful person. And now as far as her craft, she knows exactly what she's doing.

5:11Rebecca Lavoie:So tell me about your early life. How did you get into the music business? Well, the music business was a little bit by happenstance in a way, but I've always loved all arts, all of the arts, actually, you know, and many varied genres within music. I started off wanting to work in television and film. I grew up in a unique time where television turned from black and white to color. And at some point a few years later, they were like, remove your child from in front of the TV set. I'm glad that I also had books and other things that drew me into the entertainment and the arts world. So it started very young.

5:57My mother was an advocate for the arts and for music and film. From early single digit age, I was going to movie theaters. I love Broadway. I even like opera. So I'm a little varied. And I decided that with a great opportunity with ABC, American Broadcasting Company, I started there. And then another great opportunity came a few years into that one with Orion Motion Pictures. And I went to go work at Orion. And I was, what a wonderful experience making films, world-class directors and auteurs, Woody Allen, Pedro Almodovar. titles like Dances with Wolves, Silence of the Lambs, the Jonathan Demme epic, so many things.

6:52It was just a great experience. Very familial, very family. And I count those as two great starts in a career that had a lot of promise to it.

7:06Rebecca Lavoie:What did you learn about the music business from Uptown Records executive Andre Harrell. Andre Harrell is a legend in the music business, the savvy, the panache, the savoir-faire. Andre was the champagne of rap, and he took the streets to Wall Street. The only entrance into hip-hop at that point was Andre Harrell and Russell Simmons, into the corporate hip-hop world, into the money. He had a lot of know-how. He started off as an artist himself in the hip-hop world. And when he decided to do music, he partnered with Russell Simmons at Def Jam, and they had a great run as a team-up. And then he branched on his own with an artist by the name of Heavy D.

7:57And that started the Uptown Entertainment Company. He is and was a genius of being able to tap into the culture and give the youth market exactly what they wanted next. And that's important, next. To be able to read the tea leaves of today and figure out what they may want tomorrow. And Uptown from its inception was just one success after the other. You think about Heavy D and the Boys, you think about Teddy Riley, a genius within his own right, and the multiple groups that he's brought to Uptown, including Guy and the productions that he delivered to them on some of the other artists. With Teddy Riley, Andre Harrell changed the soundscape and gave us a new subgenre within R &B, and that's New Jack Swain.

8:55A few years later, he did the same hat trick again with a young A &R executive novice by the name of Sean Combs, who he had a lot of faith in as an executive. He has a whole office full of executives, but he's always looking for that new talent as far as artists, as well as producers, as well as directors for videos, including executives. He knew that they had a certain flair themselves and that could help to bring success to its overall plan with Uptown. And he saw Sean at that moment in time in Uptown as a person that was going to lead the way, the new charge for the new youth demographics.

9:44Rebecca Lavoie:You seem to have a good thing going. What appealed to you about leaving Uptown and starting Bad Boy Records with Sean Combs? Well, let me further elaborate on how I got there. Yeah. Orion had the writing on the walls with Silence of the Lambs and Dances with Wolves. They were going to close. And it was such a familial corporate background that it was more family otherwise. And I was approached as to whether I wanted to take the Golden Parachute, you know, while they had things to give to executives who had been working with them. and at the same time I was doing a promotional showcase in New York called New York Live and I came across some of the music industry executives and had actually put a showcase together for Uptown Entertainment for their new R &B artist Mary J.

10:39Blige. So all of this was happening around the same time and Andre had asked if I would be interested in working for Uptown and I was being interviewed to work in their marketing department at one point and two or three interviews in, he said, I would like for you to be a part of Uptown, but be a part of Uptown through Bad Boy, a label that I will gift to Sean, who I had extreme high hopes for, because even at that point, Sean had not even produced or executive produced a record yet. So Andre was very, very high on him and enthused. Jimmy Jenkins, Andre's best friend, is the one who ushered me in to meet Andre in a series of interviews that ended up with Andre offering me the opportunity to still be a part of Uptown, but to take care of his favorite or favored almost industry son-like person, which was Sean Combs.

11:41and I took on setting up Bad Boy Entertainment. At the time that I was invited in, it wasn't a corporate structure. It was just a potential name and the idea that he was definitely going to have his own home within Uptown.

11:59Rebecca Lavoie:Did you see qualities in Sean Combs that made you believe he could be successful? I saw the same qualities that Andre saw, the energy, the youthful exuberance, the I can do and take on anything and everything. And I think I might have come across him at the point in time that he had graduated from the Uptown rigorous intern program where he initially had to go and get cheesecake for Jimmy Jenkins and Andre and other Uptown executives. Something that we saw play out later on and what he put interns through in the early millennial with some of his making of the band episodes and things of that sort.

12:48That was something that he went through, a rigorous intern training at Uptown that make or break you as an executive. And of course, you know, he passed it, which is why he was ready to take on bigger and better things, including being awarded his own label before he actually got into the weeds with the dirt and building up ahead.

13:16Rebecca Lavoie:I want to talk about your reaction to the documentary. What were your emotions when you watched it for the first time? Triggering extremely. the same way I felt throughout the 25 years or so of a page six drop or an article or a press release. It's all very triggering. It may be celebratory for some, but it's a reminder that behind all of that shine, all of that gloss, all of the dancing with champagne flutes could be a lot of what I experienced myself. And it was always a thought that it's still going on. It's continuing. I'm not there and I would like to help or save people, which was what my initial thing was, was I picked on a fight with him to fight back with a lawsuit was to protect myself and to protect others.

14:17Rebecca Lavoie:Mm-hmm. Have people been sharing their reactions to the documentary with you? Like, what have they been saying? It has been overwhelming and overwhelmingly positive and something more that I could have ever even anticipated. This is one of the biggest surprises in my life. And I wholeheartedly want to thank Alex Stapleton. We are friendly enough for me to say Alex. And I want to thank Mr. Curtis Jackson, aka 50 Cent, just for having the strength and mind to want to touch a project like this. The series starts with behind the scenes video of Combs strategizing with lawyers, contemplating social media strategy and interacting with people in New York.

15:07Rebecca Lavoie:How much of that Sean Combs reminded you of the Sean Combs you once knew? Um, exactly the same. It was a mirror image.

15:34I wasn't there or a part of that day or that scenario. I know nothing about the film or the footage itself, But knowing that that's him and that's his voice and he's conducting business on the phone line, it was all reminiscent of the days that I worked with him. And it took me right back to see CNY tragedy, the bubble conversations to make that go away.

16:02Rebecca Lavoie:There were many interviews in the series that were new or fresh, and I want to get your takes on some of them. There was this emotional letter that Joy Dickerson Neal read, something her mother composed and never sent. She told me that she was dreaming about Puffy. I asked her why she was screaming and who is this Puffy person that he would cause her to have nightmares. I was shocked and mortified to hear her story. How did you feel listening to her read that? triggering and a little bit more painful. I just don't know how to measure pain anymore. But painful, triggering and painful. Joy is a wonderful person.

16:48A young lady that was around us in the early days of Bad Boy. She's also someone from Harlem that was connected to all of us that were part of that movement, whether it be the Uptown Bad Boy movement or the Bad Boy Later Arista movement or connected because we were from Harlem or connected because we were New York City, East Coast. The music industry is a goldfish bowl. You know, you see the same people more often than not. And so she was there and around, a wonderful person, a wonderful spirit. and the things that she is alleging is horrible. It's sad to see that she had to experience that. For me, it's one of the things that when I stepped out with my initial lawsuit, I wanted to open people's eyes so that things would be exposed and no one else could experience the type of, the situations that I was put in that led to hurt, pain, disenfranchisement, no credit, no money, no payout.

18:07The money is very essential in most everything that Sean does and will do and how he handles it and it's outcome, positive or negative, is usually all connected to money.

18:24Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. What about Aubrey O'Day? Because the expression that comes to mind for me is no win situation. Do you agree with that? Yes, I do agree with that. I asked in every way I possibly could think of. She was certain. She said, you can come public with this. I'm going to stand by you. I know what I saw. Does this mean I was raped? Is that what this means? I don't even know if I was raped and I don't want to know. There is no way to win up against a person who has the fortitude, the tenacity, the money and the power. There's no way to beat that except for through spirituality, which I must have to tell you, it was the only way that I was able to get through.

19:21praying. It was a journey to walk with our God through Jesus Christ. That is who and how I believe. I'm not trying to preach or sway. I wanted people to really understand that after you've been touched by evil or have experienced that magnitude of darkness, imagine Mace, the artist and after he left bad boy he became a pastor wonderful you understand there there's some who left and they went to the insane asylum not so good i found that uh spirituality was the thing that got me through and continuing to get me through i feel so blessed to be a part of the Alex Stapleton created 50 Cent, the executive produced Reckoning documentary on Netflix.

20:18I mean, to have been blacklisted, gaslighted, discredited, disenfranchised for 25 years and to step out into the world on the Netflix platform in such a presentation. What can I say? My journey with God is paying off. There's a victory. Yeah. Yes.

20:40Rebecca Lavoie:I don't know how well you knew Cassie, but do you remember what your reaction was the first time you saw that elevator video? Horrifying in that I wouldn't want to see anyone do that to any of the women in my family. And I wouldn't want to see anyone do that to the women in Sean's family. It made me think about his four daughters. And there's no way that I can see from the Sean that I remember knowing that he would want another man to inflict that type of violence on his daughters. And my thoughts about that, I do not know Cassie. And it was horrifying and it was triggering. And I saw the pain that she could be enduring.

21:27And I know what pain is. And I was just put her in prayer, standing in the gap. then in looking at that video and seeing what it did in the context of everything that we've had to experience, she is now a hero. Yes.

21:44Rebecca Lavoie:I want to steer clear of commenting on the murder of Tupac Shakur because Sean Combs has never been charged with anything connected to that crime. He's denied many times having any kind of involvement. But what I want to ask you is, do you think someday we will know the full truth about what happened. Yes. Rapper Tupac Shakur was shot in the chest late - This morning shot multiple times in the chest in a drive-by shooting. Death Row record label owner Marion Suge Knight was also in the car, but his injuries were minor. I believe that it may not be in my time. I pray that it would be, you know.

22:21I believe that his family, Tupac Shakur's family deserves justice, as well as Christopher Wallace's family deserves justice. And I think that in time, those cases will be solved and there'll be justice for the family and loved ones that had to experience those horrible losses. I mean, two superstars of the genre. And I've heard of cold cases in Hollywood previously and all throughout, but never, well, it could have been, but not with stars of this magnitude and not so long running with things not happening or action not taking place. But this is the journey. This is the walk. And we're on it. And I expect that at some point there'll be some resolution for those families and the fans of both Tupac and Biggie.

23:20Rebecca Lavoie:In July, Combs was convicted of two counts under the Mann Act and acquitted of RICO and sex trafficking charges. What was your immediate reaction to those verdicts? I tried to stay clear of weighing in on his judgment. I would be biased based on my experiences with him in so many ways that it wouldn't make sense for me to even comment. What I did do was pray for him, his family, the victims, myself, my family, all the people involved in hoping that Whatever God would decide, that will be best for everyone involved. You know, I don't want to say it was too easy, but what I believe in is that you do get another chance at life.

24:10You, in some instances, you go through in that way and you beg for forgiveness. You pay penance. You do good works. I mean, I don't want to sound like a preacher here, but after you've experienced a certain amount of pain and life in a certain way, you sort of begin to know what is real. What is your armor? What is your shield? What is your buckler? What is it that keeps you in the race or on the journey? And so, you know, I factor in faith. And for all the other victims, I wish that for them.

24:50Rebecca Lavoie:Toward the end, we heard from two of the jurors who talked about their view of the case. Do you think that they effectively communicated their reasoning for the verdict that they returned? I have to respect the court system and the jury system. When we were in the deliberation room and we've come to an agreement and we're only saying that he's guilty for these two counts, my words exactly were oh, S-H-I-T Do you think that justice was served? 100 % We saw both sides of it and we came with our conclusions You know, I look and I will be looking for my day in a court and I would hope and pray that 12 people will group together and look at me as a human being look at the situation weigh it and give an unbiased judgment to the scenario.

25:51It's all you can wish and hope for. It's all a game of skill and chance. Whether you have the right amount of money, whether you have the savviest of lawyers, a legal firm to back those lawyers and a PR team behind that legal firm, that's not what I am and what I have now with Tyrone Blackburn in two lawsuits that I had filed. He is a lone wolf warrior. And I'm most proud to have him because he believes in my case and he doesn't have a team or a corporate backing that's backing him up, a PR firm. His wins are his wins. The indecisions are indecisions that we're waiting and praying for a decision on.

26:38And he's a fantastic litigator and now friend to go into this stage of the battle with. I am fortunate to have him.

26:48Rebecca Lavoie:At one point, Tim Dog Patterson said, quote, out of everybody. I think out of everybody that has a gripe with Sean, Kirk is probably the most legitimate. Did you feel seen when he said that? Seen, heard, in Blu-ray and 4K. I mean, I, yeah, wow. And I'm going to tell you, Tim is someone that I have not had an opportunity to speak to in about the same amount of years that I've been on this journey, about 25 years or so. And And I was just, you know, for him to afford of me in that way and not only think of it in his head, but to take that stand and let it come out into the universe. I am so thankful.