The Stringer: The Man Who Took the Photo

0:00I'm Rebecca Lavoie, and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:14You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary film The Stringer, The Man Who Took the Photo. Some photographs just transcend all others. They capture something, they represent a story, a moment in time, in a way that other photographs simply don't reach. Today, we're talking to director Bao Nguyen. The shocking photograph of a child severely burned in a napalm strike became one of the most enduring images of the Vietnam War. Associated press cameraman Nick Ut won fame and major awards for the legendary picture.

0:56But decades later, an AP photo editor made an explosive claim. A local freelancer actually snapped the picture, but staffers credited the photo to Ut. Now, a team of investigative reporters returns to Vietnam to find the Stringer and determine if he really took the historical photograph. The Netflix documentary film The Stringer, The Man Who Took the Photo, follows photojournalist Gary Knight as he attempts to learn who actually captured the famous napalm girl picture. The hunt for the unidentified photographer will take him across the globe and put him at odds with a journalistic community deeply protective of Ut's legacy.

1:34Knight enlists a visual forensics team to pinpoint which cameraman in Trang Bang was in position to snap the picture that altered the way many viewed the war in Vietnam. But it matters who pressed the shutter, not just for one man's legacy, but for what it says about who gets remembered and who gets erased.

2:02And I'm joined now by director Bao Nguyen. Bao, welcome to You Can't Make This Up. Great to be back, Rebecca. The last time you were on the podcast, you were talking about your film, The Greatest Night in Pop, which was about the recording of We Are the World. The only combat we heard about in that was from Lionel Richie, describing Bubbles fighting with Michael Jackson's dog. This is a very, very different kind of documentary. So why did you want to take this one on? Well, to be honest, I was a bit hesitant when I was approached to do this documentary. The team of journalists who you'll see in the film, they had begun their investigation.

2:38They were about a couple of months in and they reached out to me through sort of a random email. And as a filmmaker, I get a lot of random emails with people who have crazy stories or great ideas. And I took a call with Carrie Lickstein, who's one of the journalists in the film. And she told me this frankly unbelievable story at the time. And, you know, I grew up, you know, always admiring Nick Oitt, who had been credited with the photographs. He had won a Pulitzer Prize, won a World Press Photo Award. And he was Vietnamese. And there were not many Vietnamese who had gotten those type of accolades when I was growing up.

3:20And so I always respected and admired that achievement. And so when I heard the story, I was a bit hesitant because I didn't want to disrupt this narrative of my community that's been going on for so long. And I also was like, why after 53 years would this come up? But after hearing more of the story and investigation that had started and hearing that there was a possibility that it was another Vietnamese photographer who took the photograph, then I realized like there was sort of a responsibility for me as a filmmaker to make sure that the story got out there, that we created space for this voice as part of the story that has, you know, long been in the shadows for 53 plus years.

4:06You know, that that event on that day was very well documented, but no one ever had ever shared the Stringer story, Ney story. Yeah. So the photograph is officially titled The Terror of War, but most people know it as Napalm Girl. It's of a young child in pain running down a road with no clothes on. She's covered in burns from a napalm attack. The Vietnam War was already deeply unpopular. How did this photo move the needle even more? You know, they argue that this was a photo that ended the war in many ways. I think this photograph and the famous Eddie Adams photograph of the execution on the street of a Viet Cong soldier was another photograph that had a great impact, especially in sort of amplifying the anti-war movement back in America.

4:55and now well I should say not just back in America but all around the world and so this photograph specifically the napalm girl photographs as they call it went across the wires the next day I think sometimes we take for granted how you know today how quickly information moves but back then it was slightly slower but this photograph reached audiences and viewers around the world pretty quickly and that photograph I think most of your listeners will know what photograph we're talking about had a great impact because it showed sort of the original title from the AP, The Terror of War. It really encapsulates that.

5:32Our film doesn't question the authenticity and the impact of the photograph. It just questions the authorship. But funnily enough, in our film, we have a scene where President Nixon is sort of questioning whether or not that was a staged photograph, just to show you that that photograph reached to the highest levels of power back in the day. The man credited with taking the photo is Associated Press photographer Nick Ut. How did the picture change the course of his career? I mean, from my knowledge, just winning the Pulitzer Prize, winning the World Press Photo Award, Nick was a young man at that time, young photographer in his early 20s.

6:10So getting those accolades at that stage of his career, I imagine, you know, propelled him and his photojournalism career to the sky, really. In 2022, photojournalist Gary Knight received a message from Carl Robinson, who was the AP photo editor in Saigon. What was Robinson claiming? So what Carl Robinson was claiming was that Nick didn't actually take the photograph, that Carl was asked to change the byline of the photograph by his boss, Horace Voss. And you put STF slash for a staff photographer and for a stringer, you would put STR slash in the name. And I glanced over to the notebook and Horst Foss, who had been standing right next to me, said, Nikut, make it Nikut.

7:03And so, yeah, he was asked to change the credit. it. There are a couple of theories given as to why Horst Voss might have changed the attribution of the photo if that's what actually happened. It could have been pride or wanting the credit to go to one of his staffers and not a local freelancer. It was a common practice for Western journalists to take credit for the work of local contributors or maybe Voss felt guilty about the death of Utz's older brother. What explanation makes the most sense to you? That's hard. I can't sort of get into the mind of Horace Voss and what his motivations are. So, I mean, I think for me, it's a system where local stringers and photographers were sort of undermined and disenfranchised in the culture back in the 1960s, 1970s during a war was very competitive.

7:54And I mean, even today, I imagine this happens a lot still, to be honest. I mean, since the release of the film, we've gotten hundreds of messages from stringers who have said that this happens to them still. So I think it's just part of a system of maybe vying for prestige and awards and wanting to take care of your own as staff photographers, people who you're close with. But I don't want to hypothesize too much about the motivations, but I don't think anyone can deny that a culture and the system was a bit backwards back then. Yeah. I was really taken with the reality of what we saw of life of the U.S.

8:34press corps in Vietnam. It sounded like they would, you know, hop on a chopper, go to the front during the day, and then they'd be at the hotel rooftop bar at night. Can you talk about that culture? How did you react to that when you saw this was the press experience at that time? Yeah, to be honest, I wasn't surprised because I felt that was how people who are in their 20s and being in a very competitive field in the heat of war, you kind of get lost in the romanticism of it and the competitiveness of it. There was a kind of camaraderie of the press going out during the day, maybe going into a battle situation and then coming back at night, totally separated from the vulnerability of the people.

9:21It was surreal. And you could see the bullets being fired all around the city. And you were sitting watching and having a gin and tonic. You know, I have such a reverence for photojournalists and journalism. So that maybe that part surprised me a little bit, hearing how sort of nonchalant certain attitudes were towards like the human suffering. As one of our participants says in the film, even sort of the rankings of the journalists was interesting. I think Mort Rosenblum, who we interviewed in the film, said that journalists were automatically given the rank of major and that they can just like hop on a helicopter at a moment's notice.

10:04That shows, you know, journalism is a very privileged position. You can kind of jump into most areas and say that you're a journalist and people will give you the agency to ask questions and you feel empowered to investigate something. So I think that was another example of how this was a privileged position, especially during the Vietnam War.

10:28Let's talk about Gary Knight. Who is he? Like, what is his background? So Gary's been a, you know, conflict photographer for like the last 30 years or so. It's sort of sacred ground and the idea that it might have been made by somebody else other than Nick Hook was devastating, actually. So I thought, well, you know, that is an accusation that needs to be investigated for sure. You know, he's been in Iraq and Bosnia and spent some time in Southeast Asia. He worked for Newsweek for about a decade. And then he started a photo agency called Seven. And then since then, he's created a foundation called the Seven Foundation that helps train photographers from the global South majority world countries, you know, skills that they need to be empowered and effective journalists in their communities.

11:24Part of the mystery here is finding out who exactly this other photographer was, who more likely captured the photo of Napalm Girl. He was captured in the background of a different photograph. So how did Gary go about finding him? That's the thrust of the film in many ways, right? I think the first half of the film is this mystery of who is the stringer, and the other half is sort of like finding out who he is and that discovery. Gary, after meeting Carl, sort of did what any good journalist did and started asking questions and talking to people. I should say that Gary was a lead journalist and an incredible team of journalists, Fiona Turner and Terry Lickstein, who had worked together for ABC News for many decades, and then Leigh Vonn, who's the Vietnamese journalist who actually found Nghe.

12:16You know, after all this sort of gumshoe, old school journalism tactics, it was Facebook that led Vonn to Nghe at the end. Can you talk about Nghe? His life before and after this photo seems so interesting. Can you just tell us a little bit about him? He was the child born from a mistress of an affair from his father. This was in the film. And sort of lived a typical life living in the Vietnamese countryside and became involved in cinematography, got trained by the U.S. military, went over to New Jersey, actually, for a little bit and was trained as a cinematographer, as a camera person for the South Vietnamese Army.

13:04And so he would go and document as a cinematographer during the war. And after he came to America, like many Vietnamese, he came over with very little money, very little sort of connection to a new homeland. And he got a job working for Photochem, which is a very famous sort of photo film development facility in Burbank. So they do like all of Christopher Nolan's films and Paul Thomas Anderson. And so it was interesting that he somehow was led back into that world of film because when he came to America, he sort of like left behind his passion and his vocation as a cinematographer, as a camera operator.

13:49we see in the film that he hasn't been in great health Gary went to meet him in California at his daughter's home where he was recovering from a stroke can you talk about that meeting yeah it was it was very powerful because we all knew that that gay had the stroke but we didn't know what health he was in how much he would be able to speak about his story and his truth right and um that day when he opened the door and seeing him for the first time was like really powerful how are you how are you fantastic to see you you look great how are you okay i'm okay how are you i'm very good very very happy to see you in good shape fantastic yeah all these possibilities and potentials and stories and conspiracies and allegations and rumors, they become humanized in this one person's memory in many ways.

14:46And I shouldn't say just one person's memory, but most of his family as well. And to see him and that smile on his face was really powerful for me and to hear his story and how vividly he still remembers that day, even though he had just had a stroke a few months earlier. But that being said, one of the things I wished we were able to do in the film was talk about his life after, you know, that day. But because of his stroke and sort of his frailty as a filmmaker, I wanted to be respectful of how much he was willing to share with us. And, you know, it's very tolling and exhaustive for him to speak about all of this memory.

15:29So he shared the memories that he wanted to share, and we put that into the film. At one point, we see Gary read an email from a journalist who agreed to go on the record, but then backed out. Gary, I enjoyed chatting with you yesterday, but my legal counsel has advised me not to be in the film. I'm sorry, but I keep declining. You keep pushing, but I can't really do more than I've done. That's just so disappointing. He is the second Western journalist that we've approached that agreed to an interview and has then backed out. The source said it was on advice from his lawyer, not an editor, but a lawyer.

16:06What does that imply about the stakes of this investigation? Like for some people, this is really important. Yeah, I mean, the team of journalists, they talked to about 55 people. And there's not 55 people that are in the film. but we couldn't include some of the conversations because they were off the record or people pulled out at the last minute i mean i can't tell you how many times we were like prepping for a shoot and like even that same day someone would sort of pull out of the the interview and it goes to show that this is a uncomfortable truth this story for many people that a lot of people were just saying you should leave it alone to to gary and terry and fiona but to their credit they pushed through They believe that looking and seeking the truth was important, again, no matter where it led.

16:57But just the act of pursuing the truth, I think it should, for me, as someone from the outside, is what I imagine one of the tenets of journalism. But yeah, it was difficult when certain people who could speak more from Nick's side, from the other perspective, suddenly pulled out and declined to be interviewed at the last moment. You know, this film is called The Stringer for a reason. It's about amplifying, giving space to Ngay's story and his side who hasn't had a chance to share his side for 53 years. But I think it's important to have a film that's sensitive to the perspective of Nick. And I wouldn't say try to balance the perspectives because I think that's not an honest way.

17:39You know, the film for me is a film. I'm a storyteller. I'm a filmmaker. Investigation is a piece of journalism. And I was observing this investigation in many ways through the lens of the film. But it was important for the journalists of the film, of the investigation, to talk and gather as much information. and we were hoping to present it in a fair and honest way. But sometimes the logistics of things get in the way and the practicalities. And so, yeah, we weren't able to share a lot of these perspectives. And we tried our best through archival footage and interviews that have already taken place to include the perspective of many people who were there that day.

18:19Yeah. I want to ask you a question about Nick Ut because I didn't hear anyone accuse him of stealing the photograph. Gary says it's likely that he also believed Foss that the shot came from his role of film or that by the time the picture became a sensation, it was just too late to change the record. And so he's maybe been going with it. But that it puts him in a really rough spot either way. Right. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine being in Nick's position where this credit was given to him. And again, I can't speak for Nick, but it's a tragedy at all levels. It's a tragedy for Nick, for Nye, for Carl in many ways.

18:59And so there are no heroes in the story, I believe. Yeah. Carl finally gets to meet Nye at the hospital and apologize to him for his role in taking away his credit for the photo. Can you talk about that moment? Yeah, I think Carl has been wrestling with this for over half of his life. I feel bad that we stole your name, right? So I want to say sorry. You are my proof. And I am your proof. Yeah, that whisper from Horace Voss has in some ways arguably changed the course of history. And so people often say, like, why didn't Carl wait this long to tell the story? He's actually been telling it again to people for over a decade.

19:47but I don't think people are trying to discredit him and his reputation. And this is exactly the reason he hasn't gone out and told the story widely. And so I think before we try to sort of think about his agenda or anything, just listening to him as a human and why he wanted to exhume these demons from his past. And I think someone said it at our premiere that like truth has no expiration date. And I think this story exemplifies that in many ways. And I'm grateful and I'm sure Nye is grateful to Carl for standing up and finally telling his side. They had never met each other. Really? Yeah. I mean, he didn't know who Ngai was, Carl, for the longest time.

20:35It was an investigation that revealed who Ngai was. And Ngai didn't know that Carl was the one who changed the credit. So then for them to like have these destinies intertwined and for them to find peace in their memories through two very unlikely people coming together is, you know, very powerful. There were other film and still photographers at Trang Bang. Gary was able to take all of that raw material and give it to a visual forensics team. Can you talk about what they actually did with that material? Yeah, so Index Investigations is the forensic team that you're talking about based in Paris.

21:14And, you know, this is the first time they've done something that was so far in the past. Today, they do sort of human rights abuses and police brutality cases and looking and finding injustices and helping people who have been sort of wrongly accused and things like that. But they were able to take all the available archival video when the photographs that day. They also were able to find satellite imagery from about five months after that day. It was one of the first satellite images ever created. It's actually very interesting how those satellite images were captured because they were captured in a satellite and then they would drop the film in a little parachute, apparently, and a plane would pick up and catch that roll of film, which I find really fascinating.

22:05But yeah, they took all of this imagery and they were able to put it through their model and basically recreate the day spatially and temporally pretty well. What was their conclusion about whether Ut was in a position to capture the napalm girl image? You know, their report and presentation said it was very, very highly improbable. And they're speaking in sort of forensic vocabulary where, you know, they're very careful about saying definitively. But if you look and watch the film and see the presentation, Nick, according to their presentation, was not in the position to take that photograph.

22:45And Mie was in a much better position to take that photograph. For Niku to have taken the photograph, he would have had to sprint 170 meters down the road from his position at the checkpoint, then sprint back 75 meters, turn around, and finally reappear moments later, calmly walking back towards the scene. This appears as an extremely implausible scenario. It would have taken Nick covering a space that maybe like an only an Olympic gold medalist can cover in that time, really. But, you know, viewers can watch the film and and make their own opinion about this. Gary approached the Associated Press about his investigation into the provenance of the photo, and they decided to do their own internal investigation.

23:37organization they stand by it as having been the photographer they won't change the attribution but it felt to me like they left the door open maybe a little bit i couldn't really tell what do you make of that call that they made i mean i i think it's interesting that an organization and i have again the utmost respect for ap and and their journalists and and what their journalists do every single day but i think when you're investigating a matter that happened within your organization to have an internal investigation rather than having an independent investigation done by a third party. It raises a few eyebrows just for me.

24:15And I hope with the film being on Netflix, there are more voices and witnesses and opportunities for this to be further examined. They concluded the true authorship cannot be proven definitively due to the passage of time, the death of many of the key players involved and the limitations of technology. Thus, photo attribution will remain as is. One of the many powers of Netflix is to bring a wide audience who can investigate on their own in some ways. But they also, yeah, it gives a wider platform for some of these voices that maybe have been in the shadows for a long time to speak up about things.

24:57And as you mentioned, the AP report leaves the possibility that Nick didn't take the photograph. It actually was a slight change in their verbiage from a report that they released right before our premiere at Sundance where there was much more certainty that Nick took the photograph. But after examining our film and doing their own internal investigation, they opened the possibility that it's possible that Nick didn't take it. I think one of the other interesting parts about the investigation that they did was that they determined that it was likely taken on a Pentax camera and not a Leica. And, you know, for 50 plus years, Nick has been adamant about saying that it was taken on a Leica.

25:38So there's all these discrepancies that show that this is still a story that doesn't necessarily have a conclusion. It might never have a conclusion. But again, I think for me, making this film was opening up the possibility of other voices who haven't had a chance to speak up for 50 plus years. The World Press Photo Association took a different approach to this issue. What did they do? So after doing their own independent investigation through a former Bellingcat employee, they determined that there was too much doubt that Nick took the photograph. And so they suspended the attribution of the photograph for the first time in their 70-year history.

26:20They've never done that for a winning photograph. And in line with our judging procedures and with our values, we cannot, with the amount of doubt that exists, continue to say that the photo is attributed to Nick Wood. Just a few weeks ago, another investigator in France conducted an investigation that was presented on Telerama, which is a big news outlet in France. And that also agreed with the forensics of Index and also World Press that showed that it was very unlikely that Nick took the photograph as well. So, you know, the story will have an infinite narrative, for better or for worse. And, you know, for me, it's always about the willingness for institutions and organizations to reexamine themselves and have a reckoning.

27:12The AP today is very different from the AP of 1972. I think as all institutions and individuals, we have to admit when there's possibilities where, you know, people have been left out of the official record. What do you think of this reaction? I mean, I imagine that when you're a filmmaker, you know, you're hoping to move the needle and sort of change something and make an impact. Were you expecting this reaction to the stringer? To be honest, I wasn't. I should have expected it more. I mean, the last time we talked, Rebecca, we were talking about We Are the World, and it's a very different film, as you stated in the start.

27:52And so I always approach this film as a human story, like giving space for Nga and a generation of Vietnamese who didn't have a chance to speak their truth. But as I've learned over, even before the Sundance premiere and then up to our Netflix release, it's caused quite a stir in the photojournalism community. And I can understand it now. It's a very powerful image and there are reputations at stake. And yeah, it's a difficult journey and thing to navigate. And I don't critique anyone for having an opinion or perspective. I hope that we can have it in a civil way and remember that a lot of the voices and witnesses that we've heard from for the past 53 years have been speaking this truth for their truth for that long.