Who Killed the Montreal Expos?

0:00Rebecca Lavoie:I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this is You Can't Make This Up.

0:15Rebecca Lavoie:You Can't Make This Up is the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary film Who Killed the Montreal Expos? The Expos' death is kind of like a big game of Clue. Lots of motives, lots of suspects. We have a long list. Today we're talking to director Jean-Francois Poisson and executive producer Marie-Christine Pouliot. Major League Baseball in Montreal was like nowhere else. For decades, the Expos drew legions of fans. Games at Olympic Stadium felt more like a party. And the team's owner was beloved throughout Quebec.

0:52Rebecca Lavoie:But as the economics of the game changed, the Expos found themselves in a pickle. A shared ownership arrangement created dysfunction, players were traded, cash was tight, and a new stadium never materialized. When the team finally moved in 2004, grief-stricken fans were left asking, how did this happen? The Netflix documentary film Who Killed the Montreal Expos revisits the baseball team's collapse and relocation to Washington. It lets heartbroken fans, beloved players, and vilified owners point fingers at who or what was responsible for the club's demise. Was it management blunders, labor disputes, political indifference, or basic economics?

1:31Rebecca Lavoie:Or do all these things share the blame for Montreal losing its beloved team? I don't care what Mark Rautenberg says or what anybody says during the course of this movie. For them to tell you that they were shocked at everything that went on, they are simply lying to you.

1:57Rebecca Lavoie:And I'm joined now by director Jean-Francois Poisson and executive producer Marie-Christine Pouliot. Welcome to You Can't Make This Up. Thank you for having us. We're happy to be here. Yes. So, Jean-Francois, I think many people believe the Montreal Expos folded because baseball wasn't a good fit for Canada. But now there's a hockey team in Arizona. So, Jean-Francois, can you tell us more about Canada's baseball heritage? Well, I think baseball started way, I love story between baseball and Montreal started way before the Expos. I think it's been 100 years. It was the most popular sports in Montreal at that time.

2:36So the roots were there. And then we had another team called the Royals, which was really, really popular. Then the Expos arrived. And for us, it was amazing because Quebec, we always felt like underdogs. And then we had for the first time the first major league team outside of the US. And we were really proud of it.

3:01Rebecca Lavoie:Marie-Christine, can you tell me about the atmosphere of a Montreal Expos game? because for generations of Americans, it was just like sitting around in organ music for a really long time. I think that's what was special about the Expos. And when you went to the game, it was a huge party. And we had like UP, the mascot, that he, it was like a show. People were eating up dogs, there were songs, and people were standing up. So it was really, really a big like family party where you were attending. And it was really like a family atmosphere. So I think that's why it was so special for players that played here, but for people that were coming from out of town to watch baseball.

3:42Rebecca Lavoie:Can you talk about that a little bit more? Because what you're describing sounds a lot like a team here in the U.S. now called the Savannah Bananas. You know, they make it like a party. But it sounds like the players also really loved playing there. Is that the case? It was. Well, the players that we talked to, but for 20, well, 30 years, it was special. It was very different. And the players loved it. It was always so much fun to be across the border. Safe, no guns, no violence, nothing. Larry Walker! It was a fun place to be when we were playing good. When that place was full and we were playing our best baseball, there wasn't another ballpark in the league that was louder.

4:25Like, for them, coming to Montreal, people speak French, it's completely different, really the atmosphere. I think it's such a big like family atmosphere. So even for the players, they felt it. They were really close and tied to the community. So I think for them, it was like a nice place to play and where they could have fun and be themselves also. Like they were young players. They were sometimes they're in their early 20s. I think it's a fun place to be. And I think they were having fun and they could be themselves.

4:56Rebecca Lavoie:I know that minor league baseball in Canada provided opportunities not afforded to black players. in the segregated South. Can you talk about that, Jean-Francois? Because we have Montreal to thank for Jackie Robinson, don't we? Yeah, I think we were very welcoming for those players during the segregation. And it's a big part of baseball history in Montreal. We can see some murals with all those players still in the city. And I think we are really proud of it. We were able to just be a good land for them and let them be able to play baseball. So how did the Expos end up in Montreal to begin with?

5:36I think the MLB at that time wanted to expand. What they told me is that it was a good fit because there was baseball excitement for baseball in Montreal. And at that time, the economics between Canada dollars and the US were quite the same. So financially, it was a good way to make money and come here. They wanted to expand. It was a good fit. So they ended here and it was the mayor here that pushed MLB. He really wanted a team here and nobody believed it at that time. So when he managed to do it, it was so special. A big, big, big, big party. And yeah, we were proud and we managed to, I don't know, infuse some of our values, Quebec values in that team.

6:25And I think that's one thing that made it so special.

6:30Rebecca Lavoie:Historically, these franchises have been controlled by one wealthy owner, and the team very often takes on the character of that owner, the culture of that owner. I'm thinking about George Steinbrenner of the Yankees or Tom Yawkey or in football, Jerry Jones, Bob Kraft. Marie-Christine, can you tell me about the team's original owner, Charles Bronfman? Yeah, I think Mr. Bronfman was a really, really loved businessman in Quebec. And I think that's where when we talk always about the family style, that's what he infused. That's what it was really his values. He was always on the field talking to players.

7:06He was there for him. It was really, really like his baby. And he really, really liked this team. So I think when he left, it was hard for French, Canadian and Montrealers to say, OK, because he was really, really a loved owner.

7:24Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. Jean-Francois, he seemed to be the rare owner who said, you know, I can absorb some of this financial difficulty. I just really want to keep this team alive. Was that the case? Yeah, I think so. He was one of the first gang of owners. So at that time, we called this sport the American pastime. It was more like a family, this face of family that Marc-Christine talked about. So he was really, I think, into this vibe. But, you know, over the years, baseball became a huge business in Quebec. There's not that much of big fortunes like in the U.S. And I think he saw it coming and players started to ask for bigger salaries.

8:08And he saw the business side take over the old sports and family vibe. And I think he had enough of it. So he wanted to just pass on. But he tried to pass on the team to some people that would keep his vibe, his way of doing things and with the same values that he had for all those years.

8:34Rebecca Lavoie:Marie-Christine, the economics of baseball did change a lot in the 1980s. And we hear some of these numbers that are being thrown around at this point. They're really big numbers, 20 million dollars, 30 million dollars. And I'm thinking like that's the salary of a player these days. Can you talk about how those economic changes had this big effect on the Expos? I think, well, the business changed a lot over the years, obviously. But there was also the economic between the Canadian dollar and the American dollar change. So it was like we're paying twice sometimes because the Canadian dollar was so lower.

9:11So it was really, really hard. The business was changing so much. teams were building new stadium. We had this old stadium. It was really, really hard. And I think, yes, the business changed. And yes, the players were making so much more money. And we just see now the contracts of the player. These are crazy, crazy numbers. But there's also all the business around the baseball team that was changing. And I don't think we followed up on that. Yeah.

9:40Rebecca Lavoie:So a baseball team in Canada faces challenges that a small team in, say, Kansas City or Milwaukee doesn't face. What are those challenges? What do they look like on the ground? Well, we talked about the economics. I think this is one thing. It's like in Canada in the 80s, we started to always have the wind in the face and it was hard. This is the first thing. Then you're in, I think, a Francophone market. So it's not the same thing. You have to speak two languages. There was this stadium that wasn't built for it. It was a multifunctional stadium that was made for the Olympics. It's beautiful, but it wasn't made for baseball.

10:20So when you try to get money for the sales of the seats or the advertisement, stuff like that, it was hard to sell in this big stadium. And then we're a really small market. So I think at first, when we were alone in Canada, we could be the Canadian team. But I think when the Blue Jays arrived, it started to just devise a little bit the market in Canada. So I think this was one thing, too, that had to face the Expos at that time.

10:53Rebecca Lavoie:You mentioned the stadium being beautiful, but the stadium also had problems, right? Yeah, I worked there for the... Actually, I worked at the Expos for the last four years. They were in Montreal. Yeah, that place was, well, David Simpson said it. So it's really, it's a bad word, but I'm going to say it. It's a shithole. When we had a rain delay in a dorm stadium, which shouldn't happen. On the other side of this garage door, a dividing wall has collapsed. Built in 76 and basically left to die. This section of the roof sustained damage during a recent snowstorm. Now the rain pours in. And it was only good for all the raves that were there, where you could walk around after one of them and try to get ecstasy because it was laying on the floor.

11:37It's really dusty. Everything was falling apart. Larry Walker talks about it in the documentary. Like, it's really a place that's not convenient for baseball. And there's nothing around it either. Like the stadium where it sits at that time when the Expos were here, there's no restaurants around it. It's not like a downtown neighborhood where. So it was really, really convenient. And the one big thing here in Quebec is the weather. Right. We have winter. So we need a roof that is, I don't know if it's a word in English, but retractable to be able to remove it during the summer. Because who wants to see a baseball game inside during the summer?

12:19Like it's 30 degrees outside. It's sunny. We just spent five months, six months in cold winter. We just want to sit, have a beer, sun, and a hot dog and watch baseball. You don't want to be inside a dusty place for summer. Right, right.

12:37Rebecca Lavoie:Now, today when a team gets sold, usually it's a billionaire selling it to another billionaire. But Bronfman didn't have those options in Canada, did he, Jean-Francois? No, not at all. They tried, though, because Claude Brochu, who became one of the owners after Brumfman, was the president of the team at that time. To him, that Brumfman had to find someone to buy the team and keep the values because he wanted the team to be owned by someone in Quebec or Canada. And he didn't find anyone with enough money to support what was coming in the business of baseball. And they wanted so much to keep the team here that they did something that is very Québécois because we have a sense of community here.

13:26When we talk about family, this is it. So they decided to just form a group of rich people that would put a little money, a little bit of money, a little bit of money. And then together they will manage and be able to keep the team here. And that was amazing, but it didn't work as they wanted, really. They forgot that putting that many rich people together, you have the egos that comes with it.

13:55Rebecca Lavoie:Well, talk more about that, because if this is a murder mystery about who killed the Expos, a lot of people see this as a very significant moment. So can you talk about why it was such a bad idea to try and set up this shared ownership model? Yeah, of course, MLB didn't want to talk to all those persons at the same time. They wanted just one person to manage the team, one spokesperson, and one person who would take all the decisions. So they chose Claude Brochu. That means that the other guys weren't able to say anything about the decisions that he was taking. So that became a big problem because those people, those rich men, wanted to be included in the team decisions.

14:43But it's too hard when you have so much people. Even publicly, the ownership group wasn't shy about wanting to get Claude Brochu out.

14:51Rebecca Lavoie:We're not persecuting anyone here today. But I think it's clear that we haven't had the government collaboration we were promised. We need Claude Brochu to resign. We can't move forward. It's a timeout. It's clear. We can't move forward if Claude Brochu is here. They weren't really always into baseball, so they weren't always able to put money to buy players. So that became a big mess and the communication between them wasn't great. So it just it just fell apart. I think also there's people it's all people that are used to take decisions and make decisions. And now they were not able to take these decisions.

15:26So I think that's also what created this big problem.

15:29Rebecca Lavoie:Marie-Christine, can you talk about the 1994 team? Because it was clear they had a strong roster, but no one really expected them to be dominant in the National League, right? Absolutely. And I think nobody saw them coming. And I think what was special, certainly about it, I think, was their new coach, who was Felipe Alou. I think he was the magic behind a lot of it. He'd done it all. He'd been a manager in the playoffs. He'd been a coach. We thought he arrived at the perfect moment.

16:03Rebecca Lavoie:Everyone loved Felipe Alou. He's a really great guy. So charming. He was so immersed in the community. He lived in Laval. He married a Quebecois. His children even spoke French. I think he worked with a lot of these players when they were in their junior years. So he knew them very, very well. And it's like his son was playing for the team. And then, you know, it was really, really a family. Again, we use the family style. But that's the way he was coaching. And I think the players really, really felt they were a team and they were loved and they were pushed. And so I think that's what made it really, really special.

16:43And after that, like at one point, they were just flying. But at the beginning of the season, no one would see them like near the top. And I think they were just having so much fun playing that at one point it just built up and they became like this amazing team where they can count on each other. Like you really, really feel it in the dock when they talk about it. They were like a family and they were having fun. A lot of fun.

17:07Rebecca Lavoie:The season was cut short because of the player strike, which denied the Expos their best shot of reaching the World Series. What did that do to the franchise, Jean-Francois? Well, it was the beginning of the end, really. I knew that for one thing, we wouldn't have TV revenue. And also our fans were so furious that all revenue from season tickets will evaporate for next season. The Expos are expected to lose$20 million a year. I said, well, we really are in some deep shit. That 94 team was so unpredictable. Everything just came together and they were cheap. It wasn't big salaries there at that point.

17:48And then when you're a small market and you want to make money, you need to win. You need to win. When you win, people are going to come. So the path of the Expos would have been really different if this strike had not happened. And then it's so rare that World Series are just canceled for a strike. It never happened before. So I think was really the beginning of the end of the Expos. Yeah, I think people don't realize that when you have a strike like this, people get mad. And then the year after, well, they're not going to buy tickets. The TV rights are not as high. Winning a World Series means the year after, and not just the year after, but a few years after.

18:35People buy tickets, they buy, the TV rights go up, but that was cut short.

18:42Rebecca Lavoie:Is that what happened in Montreal? Because there was this big backlash against the league generally. Fans were mad. So were fans also angry there? Oh, yeah. Everyone in the world were angry, but Montrealers a lot more. because they were winning. It was amazing. We just caught the dream. It was a nightmare, a nightmare. And this is part of this old painful story because we were so, so, so, so, so near the victory. And then it just disappeared like that. People didn't buy tickets the year after. That's how mad they were. They were really, really, really mad. So that 1994 team had five All-Stars and three future Hall of Famers on the roster.

19:28Rebecca Lavoie:And then in 1995 came the fire sale. Why did the team get rid of all that talent at that very critical moment? Well, you know, it's hard to say, but Claude Brochu was the head of the team at that time. And he told us that the team was going to be bankrupt because nobody was buying tickets. So the team was 20 millions in debt. So he had to find that money because he promised to the others, Investor Limited Partners in Quebec, that he wouldn't spend more money than he asked them for. It was tough to lose players. I know that. It was a hard blow. But the shareholders didn't want to reinvest. I wasn't able to pay.

20:21None of us in ownership could. So then what does that leave us with? To be able to keep our club here in the long term, we need more revenue. So he had to cut this 20 million. Why did he took that decision? Was it the only decision to take? I don't know. He told us so. It was quite something because the fans were mad. They became completely crazy. because when you just kill the team like that, without really an explanation at that time, he told us now, but at that time, he told nothing. He said nothing. So it was really hard and nobody understand. It was like he wanted to kill the team right away.

21:03Rebecca Lavoie:Yeah. You know, you did ask several contributors in the film whether Claude Brochu deserves the blame for what happened to the Expos, and there were mixed responses. I think he, in a lot of ways, is a misunderstood character in all this. He got a really bad rap from a lot of people. Do you think Claude Brochu was the victim of injustice? Claude Brochu was not a victim of injustice. He had a mandate to find funding for stadium construction that wasn't completed. So in your opinion, how much of this falls on his shoulders? I think it was the beginning of the end at that point when he came in. I think it's not for nothing.

21:41We call it a long saga. I think it's a lot of decision making that led to the Expos leaving. He clearly had a part in it because he was the president. So, but is it only his fault? I'm not sure. If we say the players, oh, in 94, we go to World Series. It's a lot of tickets to all these games. It's a lot of money. Well, maybe you're not in debt of 20 million. Then maybe the year after you're able to pay the salary and you don't have to cut these guys. You know, it's all a chain reaction of decisions, but it's a context also. There was a lot happening. So the strike, we didn't have any control of it.