Dr. Tim Spector: The Truth About Diet, Gut Health, and Why Calories Fail | Health & Wellness | E410

33:46Whereas everything about the industrial process is to speed it up. And if it can get you that food down, say, you know, you finished your meal in 15 minutes or 10 minutes or whatever, then your hunger centers won't have kicked in in your brain as well. So it's all part of the same idea. So structure is very important. Again, it goes with texture and softness and all these things.

34:09Hala Taha:I want to spend a moment on your story. So I found out that your father actually passed away quite young, around 50 years old, of a heart condition. And it was kind of unexpected. And it was a turning point for you, maybe not immediately, but at some point when you had your own health scare. Talk to us about the things that have happened in your life that made you realize that things really need to be different and that even though you thought you were operating in a healthy way, you needed to change your own health. Yeah, well, there's nothing quite like, you know, personal experience or tragedy to wake you up.

34:51And, you know, for much of my 30s and 40s, you know, I was an arrogant, cocky MD. uh you know who are particularly arrogant you know confident because that's what we're trained to do um thinking that i had the answers and that you know uh we didn't learn much about food or nutrition at medical school but no one no one did but um i still had the answers because you know the pills were the answer and everything else and i you think you're in fairly invincible then you don't worry about long-term health. When I was 54, I had this mini stroke as I was on the top of a mountain in Italy and had some high blood pressure.

35:40I got better in three months, but it was a bit of a shock to the system because I suddenly realized I was so close to when my father had died. And it sort of got rid of that complacency in me. So I certainly had a bit of a reality check and said, gosh, this 20 pounds I've put on in the last 20 years, maybe it's not all muscle. A lot of men just say, hey, I'm bulking up. This is great. I didn't look fat, but it has certainly been slowly accumulating. I suddenly realized my diet was pretty terrible. Once I started researching this, I was writing a book on the microbiome at the time called The Dartmouth and I really started breaking it all apart and suddenly realizing that you know my breakfast was wrong, my lunch in the hospital, the sandwich and orange juice and a bag of chips was wrong, you know me just having lots of low-fat foods and lots of pasta and bread really wasn't very good for me and so yeah I suddenly realized that I had to change if I was going to avoid the fate of my father.

36:52And it really drove me not only to look after myself, but also to rewrite a lot of these nutritional guides because a lot of the nutritional guidelines haven't caught up with the latest science and they're always lagging at least 10 years behind. So that was really important to me, but it was a bit of a journey.

37:16Hala Taha:Yeah. And you actually basically pivoted your career at that point. And you started putting yourself in conversations. And was it hard to gain that credibility initially with other thought leaders? Because they're like, who's this guy? He came out of nowhere. Yeah, no, it was. And yeah, you get treated like shit. Who is this guy? He hasn't done 10, 20 years in the field like we have. But I was sort of used to it because I've changed careers a few times. um i started uh as a rheumatologist i was you know like a board certified rheumatologist um and then i got into epidemiology so i went back to school um did my thesis on that and then i got i had to teach myself genetics so um i i got a few you know cold shoulders doing that as well as you can imagine.

38:12So by this time, I got over that initial thing. And it's probably the reason most doctors don't change specialty is doctors don't like change. And they feel like I've spent the hard yards doing all this, you know, all my certificates on the wall, you know, why am I going to listen to this new guy? But I think it's been great, really, because it gives you a much broader a view of everything. And medicine really needs a holistic view nowadays, rather than these minute, you know, these people who have these tiny specialties that miss the point. And I think this is what I'm realizing more and more.

38:50Hala Taha:Totally. And I'm sure your work with genetics really helped you understand nutrition even more and in a different way than everybody else did. Yeah, I think that's right. And we realized we only cracked genetics when we got really big numbers. So for 10 years, I was writing lots of papers. I've written nearly 1 ,000 papers. It's crazy. But a lot of them were rubbish. They were just, in the early days, you thought this gene was associated with this. And we found the obesity gene. We found the depression gene. It was all nonsense until we got really big numbers. We're talking 10 ,000, 100 ,000 people.

39:27Then we started to see some real answers. And the same has been true in nutrition. And that's driven me both you know nutrition and gut health that's why we're doing studies now with 300 000 people which uh you know through all these members of zoe now that we can really separate uh the wood from the trees in ways that we couldn't do before and and that's been a huge lesson for me which you know the nutrition fear was quite happy to look at 20 people at a time. Generally, you know, US students, usually male, usually, you know, under 25. So not very generalizable. So I think it is, yeah, experience in other fields really important.

40:10And I think more people should definitely do it and take the plunge. Although, you know, the first time you do it, it's not easy.

40:17Hala Taha:And I think more people should get involved in this food revolution that's going on because it is so needed. Like it's, it's absolutely mind blowing to me when I have these conversations with scientists and doctors like you, when we just realized that so much of what we're eating is basically food that is not really food, but just edible and, and kind of mimics what food should be. And that these scientists that work at these food companies are modifying food in a way that makes us eat more, that makes us like hungry all the time, that's not actually giving us nutrition, that's ruining our microbiome.

40:53Hala Taha:It just seems so immoral. It is when you put it that way. But it's like, we haven't been educated. We don't get taught in school about nutrition. We've had very little way of fighting back. And as I said, we're susceptible to the easy solution, aren't we? You know, we like, we propose something, oh, this is the cure. You just have to take these pills. You can tap the crappy diet. But as long as you've got these supplements, which make huge amounts of money for those companies, you'll be fine. And then you get these influencers who are paid by the supplement companies to tell you exactly that. And again, people want a simple black and white solution.

41:35And of course, it's very complex. You know, nutrition is moved from being the most boring science subject to probably the most complex and interesting, in my view. So, you know, no doctors went into nutrition because it was too dull. That's the honest. That's why there are no real MD nutrition experts or very few of them. It was incredibly dull because, you know, after the Second World War, it was all about vitamin deficiency, not about, you know, dealing with modern food and the food industry. So it's sort of understandable why we're in this. But I think given that we have incredible power over what food choices we make, at least most of us do, not everybody, you know, but those with any sort of income, you know, we're making hundreds of food choices a week.

42:29And it's not like exercise where you have to give up, you know, several hours of every day. It's just a simple choice. You can say, I can put this in my mouth or I can, I know, I can pick something else. And that's what we're not realizing, but we've got this incredible power to change ourselves and to change our destinies and live another 10 years of healthy life just by making better food choices, not by spending lots more time in the gym.

42:59Hala Taha:Well, this is such a great segue because like you just said, we have agency, but we need to understand how to kind of understand the marketing that's getting pushed at us and what is real versus what is BS. So I thought we could play a little bit of a game where we talk about the grocery store label lies. So what do these labels actually mean and what do we need to look out for? So the first one is when we're in the grocery store and we see something that says low calorie. A lot of people will pick that up, think that's healthy for us. Why is low calorie not necessarily healthy? I'd stick that in the trash because it means that they've reduced the sugar in some way.

43:43Generally, it's the sugar they go for. And they've replaced it with something else. and that could be low quality fats like palm oil or they've added artificial sweeteners and a mix of those so um or they've just given you a very small portion size that's the other way around it so you know baby portions but generally for me it's a red flag that um i would never buy anything that says uh low calorie on it because you know unless maybe you know you wanted to switch from regular Coke to diet Coke, which is probably slightly better for you. You know, if you've got diabetes or something, yes, in those instances might be worth it.

44:27But generally, it's a red flag.

44:29Hala Taha:To me, soda in general, like don't put it in your grocery cart, right? Just avoid at all costs. Yes, the whole area is a massive red flag. And if you're not having lots of sugar, you're having lots of chemical sweeteners. And we still don't know the long-term effects of those. Okay, if something is labeled organic, is that something that we should take seriously? Or does organic not really matter? Is that just hype? Well, it sort of depends on what product you're looking at. In general, the certification of organic in the U.S. is pretty poor. so there's lots of misclassification and misselling um and you might be end up paying twice as much for something that says organic um if it's a product for example that has high pesticide or herbicide use buying an organic one is likely to give you less of that chemical so a good example might be if you have oats for breakfast every day then you'll be getting you know only 20 percent of the spray chemical on it the glyphosate or on your oats if you chose the organic one and it was true but for many products it's it's probably not worth it and i'd rather people spend their money buying you know better quality uh fruit and veg than only getting organic i mean in general though we you know we should support farmers that try and do things organic because it means they are taking more care um over those products and so there are lots of exceptions but um some things it's not worth you know um if you're worried about the spraying of chemicals and you're buying an orange well you just peel the orange you know it's got a thick skin so you're not going to get it anyway things you're having a lot of then then you might want to reduce your those uh particular risks like berries and strawberries get sprayed a lot.

46:31So again, if you're having those regularly, it might be worth it. But as a general rule, I think it's slightly overhyped. There's no big evidence of people shifting makes a massive difference. If you've got the money, go for it. If you haven't, don't worry about it.

46:47Hala Taha:Now, this is a really popular one. Now, everything says the amount of protein on the front, high protein, high protein. Is that becoming like the new low calorie, low fat? Yeah, for a year or two now, there's been protein mania. And food companies love it because there's lots of cheap protein out there they can add in powders to anything. I've seen surveys in the US showing that 70 to 80 % of people believe that if they see high protein in a product, it's healthy. And they don't look beyond the protein. so it's definitely going to replace the low calorie and you know you see this turning up in all kinds of terrible snack bars that uh look are incredibly unhealthy and they've just added a bit of soy protein or milk protein on the top and it's like protein bars that we all get yeah they're generally absolutely terrible so yeah i think that's a real red flag uh you know if you want protein get the high quality stuff uh you know uh if you want you know dairy and uh red red you know lean meat and uh things like this uh and legumes um don't buy in a chemical form because the average american is already getting uh more than enough protein there are you know a few people who are protein deficient but the vast majority of people uh unless they're sick elderly or you know, bodybuilding are not really going to be needing any extra.

48:18There's getting plenty.

48:20Hala Taha:Yeah, you say there's a fiber crisis, not a protein crisis. Like, we've got it backwards. Yeah, that's right. You know, only 10 % of people need more protein, whereas 95 % of people need more fiber. We're really deficient in the Western world on fiber. And yeah, the USA is leading the world on that. Yeah, it's something we don't want to be number one for, for sure. What about the word natural? Pretty meaningless. You know, opium is natural, isn't it? And, you know, it's sort of necessarily good for you. So, yeah, lots of natural things. Yeah, it's a meaningless term. It doesn't have a clear definition.

49:05It's used on marketing. uh again uh it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad but it's just a sign that someone's got to they're trying a bit hard to market this at you um by using a meaningless term um full of natural goodness and of course you know natural there's this definition between natural and synthetic so people are using um flavorings and colorings which might I might say a natural in those products, whereas in the past they didn't worry about that. So they realize the consumer doesn't want artificial dyes, but they would be happy if there's something called a natural dye made from carrots or beetroot.

49:53They feel a bit happier with that. But in general, yeah, it's a pretty meaningless term.

49:59Hala Taha:When something says made with real fruit, what do you think they're typically hiding? either there's virtually none in it or um they're using uh some pulp of the of the fruit and they're mixing it with other things um so a lot of yogurts and breakfast cereals have say made with real fruit uh it they don't have to say how much what percentage is is actually real fruit and uh generally you know you shouldn't have to tell a consumer it's got real fruit you should be able to see it right and generally you can't and um certainly uh things like children's yogurts and breakfast cereals have these reconstituted flavored berry flavored um bits of starch and uh crumbs that they they pass off as fruit and they might have added some puree at some point so they can claim it.

51:00Somewhere in that product is some real fruit. But generally, yeah, that's another red flag.

51:07Hala Taha:Is there anything we didn't talk about that we should be aware of when we're grocery shopping? There are some really difficult items when you're shopping. I find bread really tough, getting a good bread because they all claim to be the same. and it's often the ratio of the how much sugar there is in that bread compared to the amount of fibers in that bread and that's quite a hard calculation to do in your head um so again look really carefully uh think because people have a lot of bread you know they have it regularly so it's it's the items that you buy all the time are really important to to scrutinize and trying to get the best one so you should be looking at the highest fiber content and the relatively lower sugar amount, and you don't want a big list of chemicals as well.

51:57So that's one I find difficult.

52:00Hala Taha:Yogurt could be like really good or really bad too, right? Yeah, exactly. It's really hard in some parts of the US, I found, to get a yogurt that has nothing in it at all, apart from the milk and the microbes. Vanilla is added to standard. um you get uh sweeteners in there you get uh bits of fruit and whatever so you just got to try and get the least amount of ingredients the simplest it is uh that you know it's going to be good and particularly children's yogurt is even worse if you've got kids uh or you know then really important that you you don't get them those brightly colored ones which probably have got no live microbes in them at all and uh they'll neutralize any any of the goodness in that in that yogurt as well so i think yes the two aisles where i think you know things like the children's aisle the yogurt aisle um the bread aisle that's really where you should become an expert but some of these ones you know it may be obvious you can work it out if they're so full of uh cartoons and messages that's obvious other ones you may have to you know barcode scan it you know uh with an app like Zoe's, it can be really tough.

53:17But I think work out what you're having regularly and then always get the better version of it, I think is what we should be aiming at.

53:24Hala Taha:I learned that you had a high microplastic count in your blood at some point. How do you feel about food packaging? Are you concerned with that? I know you were talking about canned foods being okay, but I think there's aluminum in canned foods and that could be really bad for us as well. So I looked into this and I'm fairly relaxed about canned foods. You know, they've done lots of studies. They've been around for, you know, hundreds of years. But I'm more concerned now about having too much plastic and obviously clear dangers of buying, say, bottled water in plastic. You leave them in your car.

54:04It gets a bit hot. All those chemicals leak out into the water. And then if you, you know, that's part of your regular drink. that's not good so um i'm trying to cut down on my plastic containers um as much as i can and making sure also when you you might microwave or heat something up you take it out of the original plastic container and put it in some uh glass or ceramic i think we just we've got a bit complacent around plastic um it's very cheap it's you know a byproduct of the petrol industry um it's you know it's virtually forced on us it's very hard to avoid it and yeah nobody wants to be think this you know their brains are slowly filling up with microplastics um even if we even if we don't know exactly what they do again if there's a simple choice going back to my idea of you know we're constantly making these little food choices you know am i going to bother putting into another bowl yes you know do i want my water bottle to be plastic or i want it to be metal or made to something else.

55:08Hala Taha:These are very easy choices for us to make without, you know, ruining your life and getting super stressed about it because you can't avoid plastic. And I think we don't want to be so plastic phobic. We go the other way, which would make, would probably have negative effects on your mental health. Yeah. I feel like for me, one of the biggest health changes I could make is to start to just avoid plastic more often and avoid plastic water bottles. Like how do you drink your water? Like What do you use for your water at home? After my scare, I went and got water filters installed. And so my water tastes better and you get any of those microplastics filtered out.

55:52So I'm quite happy to have my filtered water. Or if I do buy specialty waters, you know, I like a nice Italian or Spanish mineral water. i'll buy in a glass bottle um and so that that works for me and yeah and i i i carry a metal water bottle with me so yeah i could do more but i reckon that you know there's a sort of very easy easy way of doing this um and no one really knows you know i had above average microplastic levels but nobody knows what's what's critical you know hopefully hopefully i'll die before I have any problems due to them, but it's very early science. I think there's probably many other things in our food that are worse for us than those, although they sound scary, but we're surrounded by a lot of these, just starving our microbes, I think is a worse crime than having a little bit of plastic every time we have a drink.

56:57Hala Taha:So I want to close out today's interviews talking about fermented foods. you just mentioned starving our microbes. And I know fermented foods is something our microbes really like. You actually changed your mind on this. You thought fermented foods was for like hippies. And then you changed your mind. So what made you change your mind about fermented foods and what should we know about them? So what really changed my mind was understanding a mechanism of how they might work. Because the field as a self-nutrition is not well funded the studies are small you know some of them are funded by dairy companies and etc um which you know can be biased so i thought well they might have some advantages but the evidence isn't very strong and there's no evidence that these microbes when you drink them say in a yogurt or a keff milk kefir they stay in your gut and they take over you know so that was always a bit odd so how do they work if they're not hanging around very long you've got to keep drinking them and they have this effect.

57:59And how are they working? Because they'd be really outnumbered in your gut, you know, because there are billions of them when you drink them, but there's trillions, hundreds of trillions of the other guys, right? So it's like you going into a football stadium and, you know, waving your hands around hoping everyone's going to notice, you know? It's like that scale. So it was a study about three or four years ago by a colleague of mine, Christopher Gardner and Justin Sonnenberg in Stanford, where they gave 28 volunteers really large amounts of fermented food, five portions a day. They took blood every day on these guys.

58:43And they noticed that after two weeks, they'd reduced the inflammation levels in their blood by about 25%. And that was the first time anyone had really shown in a proper, really high-level experiment that microbes have this effect. And they have an effect that we didn't expect, I didn't anyway, that it would be directly on the immune system, not by just inhabiting our gut microbes. They're tickling something in our gut that is sending signals to the rest of the body to say, calm down, relax. It's like having low dose of steroids, really. and to me that was a game changer i said wow suddenly we've got a mechanism here we know how it works and then i went and i did a because it was only 28 people usually you know young males uh as always in these studies so we did a real life study with zoe we got um uh we asked 9 000 zoe members to do a citizen science study and take fermented foods they weren't fermented food people and we asked them to take three portions a day for two weeks and six and a half thousand did it a thousand more dropped out they didn't like it but those that did go to the end and take it over 50 of them felt better in terms of mood energy and hunger and they can all be related to inflammation and brain effects and to me those those two studies plus you know all this old literature that have been around there convinced me that these have a really important effect on our immune system via our gut microbes and we should be having much more of it in our in our diets and, you know, they're not.

1:00:29And until recently, you know, they haven't been recommended, although the latest U.S. guidelines, they've now put them back in really as a, and the gut microbiome for the first time this year suddenly got a place.

1:00:43Hala Taha:What are some examples? So there's like kombucha, yogurt, kefir, any other big ones that you think we should be aware of? I remember by the four Ks. So I get kombucha, kefir or kefir, which is fermented milk. You've got kimchi, which the national dish of Korea, which is one of the best ones because it's got so many microbes in it. And then you've got krauts. So that's things like sauerkraut, but also could be beetroot kraut or any vegetable you can make into a kraut. um then you've got um all the japanese dishes so anything based on soy fermented soybeans so that includes um miso uh miso soup miso paste um which i now use instead of a stock cube um make my own miso and you know suddenly it's in everything and it tastes amazing and then you've got other things called there's a something called tibikos or water kefir, which I think is going to get more attention.

1:01:49Again, it's a bit like kombucha, but you add fruits to it and it's really exciting. And every country has got its own fermented food, apart from the English-speaking countries, which seem to have got rid of them pretty quickly. If you travel around, you'll go to Africa, you get various porridges and other ferments you go to india they've got uh lots of ferments there and lassies and things like this that um are made made with ferments so uh there are hundreds hundreds if not thousands of different ferments around the world and uh yeah you can either buy them in a store make them yourself you know that's why i wrote my book ferment which is really trying to understand the science of this and try to get more people having ferments because I think the goal should be to get trying at three ferments a day.

1:02:43And if you also think that some of the things you don't think of as fermented, you've got cheese, of course, and just got to make sure it's real cheese. It doesn't come in a plastic wrapper. And I've had a cheese on my shelf from that famous brand Kraft that's lasted five years. It's still nice and orange and shiny. there's not many microbes there. But interestingly, I did do an experiment on Philadelphia cream cheese, one of America's favorite. That's got some live microbes in it. So that probably means it's also good for you. So there's lots of stuff out there. You just got to, again, think about food in a different way.

1:03:25What can I add? And you can add these things to your meals. You can start using yogurt or kefir instead of cream. um you can um put all these these mixes you can put add your krauts to soups or curries lots lots of things you can you can do to get ferments in your diet and start slowly you don't have to go uh hardcore that's the other thing now for the listener who's an entrepreneur and

1:03:54Hala Taha:they're obsessed with hustling working hard productivity performance thinking clearly and maybe their motivation for eating right isn't necessarily like longevity, but it's more about how do I like decrease my brain fog, have a better mood and be more productive? What do you want to say to them? All the experiments we've done at Zoe have shown that the first effects of improving your diet from a gut point of view are in the brain. And if you value your brain and you want to improve your mood and your energy your tiredness then a gut-friendly diet is the way to go and it doesn't matter whether you're just shifting yourself a little bit towards more fiber and more diversity give yourself fermented foods or you're actually taking you know our prebiotic supplement on top of your food they all work and you know my mood has really improved since i started doing this and and it's something people don't associate with food um i think that's the other important thing that um we're never told you know oh what you had for breakfast could influence how you feel three hours later but it does and it and you only notice it when you start to record it and that's what we're trying to do is to get people to make this link between the food they chews or what they ate last night you know how much gap they left overnight but you know by me if i went back to my old way of having breakfast which was you know um you know granola uh an orange juice a bit of low-fat milk and tea or maybe a bagel or a croissant you know compared to what i have now which is you know a yogurt a kefir nuts seeds my daily 30 and some berries is it's night and day three hours later.

1:05:51You know, I don't need, you know, a double coffee and a chocolate biscuit or a snack at 11 o 'clock in the morning. You know, I'm full and I'm mentally focused. So I'd say to anyone listening, give it a go, and you'll notice the difference in two weeks. If you think about, you know, if you're recording what your energy and mood levels are before and after. and you're focused on it. And hopefully in the app, we haven't got it there yet, but we're going to start having a way of people can track their mood and energy, which I think will be a real step forward in this because doctors never ask it.

1:06:33It's just not something that we don't talk about really. You know, we always assume it's other factors. It's the fact that I've got a busy life, I don't sleep well. We don't actually make that link with food, but it is, I've learned it's really crucial.

1:06:46Hala Taha:So to recap, 30 different plants a week, three different fermented foods a day. Any other big ones that you want to call out? Yeah, lots of bright color on your plate. So you're eating the rainbow. You've got lever gap, so no late night snacking. So you're getting at least 12 hours overnight. Switch protein source, get lots of legumes in there. Beans, lentils, chickpeas, all those things are really good for you. So cut out your UPFs as much as you can. Maybe use our app if that's helpful for you. And forget about calories. And I think do all those things and you'll be a new person. Amazing. Well, Tim, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.

1:07:37Hala Taha:Where can everybody learn about what you do and where can they find you? You can follow me on Instagram and all the things I've been talking about. There's research studies at Zoe, at Zoe.com. Our website there has got all our research papers. We've got over 70 research papers from the team there, as well as the products that are available. And yeah, so, and we also have a podcast. So the Zoe Nutrition and Science Podcast is also another free to listen to for anyone who's out that wants to dive deeper into this area. The Zoe Podcast and YouTube channel is actually like huge. So we'll stick all those links in the show notes.

1:08:21Hala Taha:I found it really entertaining and educational. So, Dr. Tim, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, fam. This conversation with Tim challenged one of the biggest assumptions we've been taught about nutrition. that if we eat healthy foods, we all get the same healthy results. Tim's research showed that even identical twins with identical genetics can have dramatically different gut microbiomes. That helps explain why some meals can leave one person energized while the other person feels depleted and hungry. It's a great lesson to stop chasing generic advice from social media and start paying attention to your own body signals.

1:08:57Hala Taha:When it comes to nutrition, personalized data will always be trendy one-size-fits-all solutions, and that's really the future of healthcare and nutrition. Tim also encouraged us to stop obsessing over calorie counting and start focusing on food quality. As he said, think of foods in terms of quality, not calories. Calories don't tell you how a food impacts your microbiome, your hunger, your immune system, or what long-term health benefits they have. Instead, focus on feeding the trillions of microbes that help power your body. Aim for roughly 30 different plant foods each week. This can seem overwhelming, but it also includes herbs, spices, nuts, and seeds.

1:09:34Hala Taha:Add fermented foods like kefir, kimchi, sauerkraut, or yogurt into your routine. And rather than avoiding all processed foods, which some processed foods like frozen foods and canned beans are actually good for you, learn to recognize and limit ultra processed foods that are engineered to keep you eating more and hungry. For entrepreneurs, this isn't just a health conversation. It's a performance conversation. Your focus, energy, resilience, and decision-making all depend on the fuel that you give yourself. As Tim told us, we make hundreds of food choices every week. Those choices add up. So the next time you're standing in the grocery store, don't just ask, how many calories are in this?

1:10:13Hala Taha:Ask yourself, what is this doing for the person I'm trying to become? And is this healthy for my microbiome? Thank you for joining me on this episode of Young and Profiting. Every week, you're investing in your growth, your future, and the impact you want to make in the world. So if this episode changed the way that you think about what's on your plate, share it with a friend, family member, or anyone who needs a more freeing way to think about food. Until next time, it's your host, Halataha, aka the Podcast Princess, signing off.