Hala Taha: Turn Your Podcast into the Most Powerful Marketing Asset in Business | Marketing | YAPLive

23:02Exactly, to sign up to the webinar. So then they get multiple touch points. It could barely talk about the brand, right? Just talking about sales. Let's take Pipedrive. for an example. So maybe I'm giving a sales tip. It does really well on LinkedIn. I get a thousand likes, 500 comments, whatever. We retarget those people, invite them to the webinar. And then in the webinar, they're getting such amazing value. The law of reciprocity is in play because it's all sponsored by PipeDrive. PipeDrive is on every single slide and they're like, oh my God, I learned so much in this webinar. And it's all thanks to PipeDrive, right?

23:34And then they're receptive to watching the demo. They feel like Pipedrive is on their side and they end up signing up a lot of signs. You're blowing my mind here already because I didn't realize the way to do engagement. I was looking at the comments or maybe you're replying or engaging in the comments further, but not realizing the DM follow-up that's happening behind the scenes because you don't actually see, you know, like if I'm watching your LinkedIn, I don't see that. So, so like we have a LinkedIn agency, so that's why I'm lucky because I've got a whole team that's like, you know, 24-7 DMing people and it's just another one of our strategies, right?

24:08So how does LinkedIn handle it? You know, on some of these platforms, if you're doing more outbound or you're pushing more of this, there's limits, right? So LinkedIn is actually really good. There's no limits. Once you've warmed up your account now, you can't like day one, go DM a thousand people in a day. But on my account, we literally are DMing people 24 seven. And you're doing it from your personal? My personal account. You cannot DM on a company account. You can only do it on a personal, profile. So first connections, unlimited amount of DMs. So the name of the game, when you become a huge LinkedIn influencer, once you hit 30 ,000 connections, you actually want to remove people who don't respond to you so that you can keep DMing people.

24:50So I am removing people every day to bring in new people that will attend my webinars or subscribe to a podcast or whatever it is. And so you constantly want to bring in new people that you can DM, but you always have 30 ,000 people that you could DM every single day in an unlimited manner, which is totally different than Instagram. It's like 25 a day or something on Instagram. So you can just DM all day. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to use you as my personal LinkedIn coach for just a minute. I have a question on this. So I have like 30 ,000 followers on LinkedIn. And I mostly kept the connections for people that I actually know.

25:25And so I don't know, I have maybe 1500 connection requests that I have just let sit there. Yeah. I think what you're saying is I should accept every one of those connection requests. If you think you can sell to them. If not, you shouldn't because they automatically follow you now if they send a request usually. And you can now, this is a new feature. So I also have like thousands of people who sit in my connection requests. We can actually DM those people now without having to connect with them. So part of my strategy, especially when we're like out of people to DM, I'm like, go DM all the people on my invite list, you know, I think it's just more people to invite to the webinar or do whatever we need to do.

26:00So you can DM those people with some, sorry, my connections are full or I'm really picky about my connections, but I'd love for you to check out ConvertKit, you know? So you can still DM those people and engage them and it will tell you if they're following you or not. Okay. Oh, interesting. Let's say I accept a connection request and then later remove them because they weren't engaged and I need to, I've hit my 30 ,000 limit. Do they remain following me? You can't force them to unfollow you. You can only remove a first connection. Okay. So this is actually really important. You don't want to have dead connections on your LinkedIn because you want people who take viral action, who see your stuff to engage within the first 90 minutes of you posting.

26:42Okay. So you actually don't want dead connections who don't log on, who don't take viral action, or people who wouldn't like your stuff, because then you're never going to go viral because in that first 90 minutes, you're not going to get engagement because the people either don't see your stuff or if they do, they're not going to scroll right past it. Yeah. So you want to make sure that you're bringing in people to your network who would take viral action and support your content. The one thing I'll say is that about two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, LinkedIn wiped out a ton of dead profiles.

27:12So when I first used to bring on clients, I used to go through and have my team find out like who hasn't logged on in six months and stuff like that. Right. Through Sales Navigator, you can actually see that. Okay. And then we've removed thousands of followers and that would kickstart their account. But now they already removed a lot of them. So if you don't have a ton of followers, you don't need to really worry about it. Just going forward, I would just make sure you are purposely trying to get people who take viral action. I'll give you one more tip of how to find those people. Go look at influencers on LinkedIn.

27:41Go on somebody who has a really engaged profile like Gary Vee, Alex Ramuzzi, Cody Sanchez. Chris Donnelly. Me. So go on my stuff. And if you feel like they're a lookalike profile, somebody who has an audience that you want, anybody who likes and comments on their stuff is the perfect audience for you. So you would just go look who likes and comments and then invite those people to connect because you know, they take viral action, they like similar content, and that's the perfect person to invite your audience. And so you could go out and connect with them. And that's how I first started on LinkedIn.

28:13I targeted Gary Vee's followers. Oh, fascinating. Yeah. Because so much when people think about inbound marketing and you're going to lead with great content so that people will happen to see that in their feed, follow you and go from there. But what you're saying is, yes, obviously have the great content because that's what they're going to stick around for. Yeah. But you can go out and find people and put your content in front of them. Well, there's so many reasons why this works. We're getting real into the LinkedIn rabbit hole here. Yeah, we are. But there's so many reasons why this works.

28:42We'll get back to podcasting in a moment. So the reason why this works is because DMs are the most viral action on LinkedIn. So if you DM somebody and they DM you back, they're 85 % more likely to see your content the next time they log on. So basically what you're saying is that is determining the algorithm feed. It's like on Instagram where, same thing with DMs, the stories are going to show up at the front. Exactly, exactly. So because you DM them, LinkedIn's like, oh, they're friends. Yeah. This person wants to see your content. They responded back, right? So first of all, new connections also see your stuff more frequently.

29:17So you connect with them. Hey, I noticed you engaged with Gary V. If you like his stuff, you're going to like mine too. I talk about motivation. I have a podcast. I talk about marketing. Let's connect. I'd love to provide value on your feed. They accept. They respond back. Better yet, you have like a conversation with them. So they're not only bought in from the algorithm, but they bought into you as a person. Then they start engaging on your content. Because they start engaging on your content, LinkedIn starts showing your content to their first connections that are similar and are interested in that type of content.

29:49So it's like a flywheel effect. Also, when you comment on that influencer's post where you share so many connections, LinkedIn's more likely to notify those connections that you commented. And so you'll get engagement on that comment on Gary Vee's post, for example. And comments have their own impression algorithm. And that's actually being shown on LinkedIn now. You can see this comment has a thousand impressions or whatever. So people start seeing your comment, they're even more likely to follow you on their own accord because they're like, why does this person have so much engagement on their content?

30:20Who's this person? And then they follow you that way. So there's so many different reasons why it works. But the whole strategy is how do you get people who are engaged on LinkedIn to start engaging with your steps so that you're just in this community that will just help you go viral? Oh, that's amazing. Okay, so bringing this back from LinkedIn podcasting, because LinkedIn is a huge part of your podcast success. It is. So talk to me about what you do specifically for the podcast growth on LinkedIn. So I have a couple strategies for LinkedIn. I do LinkedIn lives and I play my full episodes. And then I'll retarget anybody who likes and comments on those videos.

31:00And I'll ask them to subscribe to my podcast. So I'll say, hey, I noticed that you checked out my live stream. If you didn't catch the full episode, here's the link to the full episode. Most of the time people are like, oh, I already listened or I listened. It was awesome. Oh, thank you. can you copy and paste that as an Apple podcast review? Right? Yeah. So what is this doing? This is actually helping my ranking on Apple. So driving new people to your Apple page increases your ranking. So ranking is not based on downloads. It's based on new subscribers. So daily new subscribers. Because I've seen some shows shoot way up the rankings where I'm like, I don't think that you're getting more downloads than these other established shows.

31:38So Spotify rankings is based on trends. They're trending charts. They're not download charts. So you can't actually tell who's a bigger podcast based on their ranking. It's all based on daily new subscribers. Now, some people are using virtual machines and people from Bangladesh and whatever, and they can just manipulate it, right? And so some people are doing that. Some people are doing like me, where they're sending DMs constant. I'd send DMs 24 seven, and I'm always at the top of the charts because I'm just driving new subscribers all the time. And I have a fairly large show as well, which helps, but it's really the new subscribers through the DM.

32:14So LinkedIn Live is the primary way that I'm getting new subscribers. And then also, like I was mentioning before, since there's unlimited DMs, we're constantly thinking of strategies of how can we find more people interested in the podcast? So for example, we can see who registered for like a negotiation event. And then we can say, Hey, I just interviewed Chris Voss about negotiation. I'd love to send you a link to my podcast. Or you mentioned Mark Manson before. Hey, I just interviewed Mark Manson. I noticed you follow him. I'd love to give you a link to the podcast. So we're constantly trying to just get new subscribers through finding the target audience on LinkedIn.

32:50Okay, that's fascinating. And then the target audience is so interesting. Because for my show, I'm focused so much on serving professional creators who are already really established. Yeah. And so if Someone's like, oh, when are you going to do a beginner episode on this? I'm like, never. It's not going to happen. Right? Because I want the show to be like your favorite creator's favorite podcast. Yeah. And so some of the growth tactics that I've heard other podcasters talk about are all about how do I just reach more masses? I don't care about that at all. I want to get the right people. Yeah.

33:21And so what you're describing is really this direct, you know, you could say like, okay, let me figure out how to find established creators on LinkedIn. Yeah. And then invite them to come and listen to the show. Yeah, there could be a certain title that they have in their profile that you target that way. It could be certain events that they register for, groups that they're a part of. Could you do it based on follower count? I don't think you can filter for follower count. I wish you could. Yeah, but you could have a VA go through and build lists based on follower count. Totally, I would say the best strategy would be like, who's another creator like you or entrepreneur who has a following that you want?

33:57And then you can just go look at their following. You can go look at their posts. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. Okay, so going back to your podcast. Okay. Because this is so many things of how you've grown the show. Yeah. And then you're on track for a million in revenue this year. Yes. And we talked about those two sides of it, right? The advertising side and then this 360 deals. Yeah. What other things go into driving revenue? And because you were actually telling me, you just like dropped a little hint of this. Yeah. You actually like, this is relatively small compared to, which is crazy to say that a million this year is relatively small compared to some of the other ways that you're monetizing and earning off the podcast.

34:36Yeah. So my podcast is the main lead gen for my social media and podcast agency and for my podcast network. And so the people who I interview, we're pretty strategic about it. It's people that I want on my show. Anyway, I have an entrepreneurship show. So it's most, a lot of entrepreneurs have podcasts now. need somebody to help them with their personal brand. And so a million dollars this year off my podcast. Last year, I made$6 million off my guests from the agency and my network. So that's a portion of the guests saying, okay, so tell me more about this. Like, I'd love to sign up for your agency.

35:15I'll tell you exactly how I do it. It's very strategic. It was an accident at first. I didn't know. And then I was like, oh my gosh, we could just totally use this, right? So podcast is the main lead gen. and it's all like stealth marketing. So first of all, our guest outreach team, who's incredible and like super professional, like they don't skip a beat. They've got a email signature that says number one LinkedIn marketing agency, top self-improvement and business podcast network, just on the email signature. So like they're getting a glimpse of what we do. We send everybody a gift box who's a guest.

35:47So they get a branded box. It says number one self-improvement network. There's like a little flyer in there. They get like a mug and a mic and like all this cool stuff. And there's just like a little bit about what our company does. Then before the interview, and this is something that I learned and I wish I was doing it earlier because when somebody hops on an interview with me, they always just assume I just have this podcast and nothing else. You know, like they're just like, or like that I got lucky or whatever they thought. So now I'm just like, my name is Hala. I have a company called Yap Media.

36:22it's like the number one LinkedIn agency. We're a top podcast network. Sometimes I'll throw out, we're on track to hit eight figures this year, whatever, depending on what I want to do. And I just let them know what I do. And typically what happens is that after the interview, and of course I do a really good job. For example, I was supposed to interview you today and I was like, I can't, I didn't get time to study. You know, I was like, I can't. I got to study really hard for my interviews because I want to do a great job. And then usually at the end of the show, they're like, I know that you do LinkedIn.

36:51Can we talk about it? And if they don't ask me something like that, I'd be like, so how's your podcast going? How are you monetizing? At the end. And then I'll just give them some advice. I'll be like, oh, you're doing it that way. You should do X, Y, Z. And they'll be like, hey, like, can we talk about this more? I had this client who did this and you could share a story. Yeah, so it's like, I just give advice. I'm not hard selling in any way. I'm always waiting for them to say, can we hop on a call? And that's how I get all my clients. So are you deliberately leaving five to 15 minutes at the end of the podcast recording so that if you could have a conversation?

37:25I try. Yeah, I try. Sometimes it's hard because I just want like the content for my show. And there's like two minutes and I'm like, by the way, how's your podcast? Yeah, exactly. So I should be better at that. But yeah, like it usually just naturally ends up. And I love it because they feel like it was their idea, you know, and like, so it's just way easier. It was their idea. It was their idea. It was your idea to create the opportunity for it to be their idea. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, that's fascinating. And swaps work even better. Okay, talk about that. Because that's an opportunity for me to give my expertise.

37:57So once they're like, oh my gosh, she knows so much about LinkedIn and podcasting. I want to work with her. So I've noticed that like conversion, if we do a swap, skyrockets. Because they're going to spend an hour asking you about all of the things. And they're going to take all of these notes. and then they're going to go, can you just do this for you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So the way that you're ultimately monetizing then is the agency fees that they're paying you for managing social, implementing all these LinkedIn strategies, all of that. And then obviously - Rev share on the sponsorships.

38:31On that side. What's the split of that in your business? I would say about two and a half million was agency. And then last year it was like, 4 million on the network, including my show. Oh, that's amazing. I always think about packaging of content, right? So as you're having a conversation, things that run through my head of like, okay, how would you package this on YouTube so that someone is searching for the right thing and they come across it and totally delivers on it? And just as a very meta thing that creators will care about. In this, what's running through my head is like, oh, building a$6 million agency, building a podcast to a million a year in revenue.

39:08The secrets for growing on LinkedIn. Like we've covered all kinds of stuff. I feel like I have so much more to share, especially on the podcast side. Yeah. What's something on the podcast side that you think professional creators would really want to know? So I feel like a lot of people just don't understand how podcast sponsorships work. And I feel like there's so many creators that like are kind of scared of it. Okay. Why would they be scared of it? There's so many creators that have a big enough show to monetize, but they're like, I don't do sponsorships. You know? Is there like some status that comes from that?

39:42Or like they feel like I've never done that before. I just sell my own products or I make so much money on my stuff that like I don't need to do that. I mean, candidly, I'm in that boat, right? You are in that boat. Because the show is so targeted. We've got a good number of downloads, but not hundreds of thousands a month. And I make a lot of money running kit. So you might not be a great fit because you still need maybe more volume. Yeah. But if you're getting to someone who, say, has 100 ,000 downloads per month, and they're like, I don't do sponsorships because I make, you know, my course makes a million dollars a year.

40:16Yeah, but they can make another million, or maybe they can make another quarter million doing sponsorships, or more, depending on how creative they are. Like, I was telling you, like, I punch way above my weight. I probably make double a podcast of my size. So, transparently, guys, I get, like, 350 ,000 downloads a month across my simulcast. It's a big show. It is not a huge show. So I'm like probably the fourth biggest show on my network right now. Okay. Now, a lot of people lie about their podcast numbers. So when I say 350 ,000 people are like, they might think like that's small, but a lot of people in this world lie about their numbers.

40:53And I don't lie about my numbers. People will combine in a way like, that's why I dug in a little bit when you said, you know, long form plays, like full length. Exactly. Because people will put their YouTube shorts numbers in there. They're like, this reel went viral. and that was from the podcast. It's actually really funny. Like I have people that like, I'll hop on a call from my network and they'll be like, oh, I'll be like, how many downloads do you get? They're like 2 million a month. And I'm like, that's not true. You know, I'm like, let's talk real numbers so I can give you real projections.

41:19And then I'm like, I go into their stuff and they get 20 ,000 downloads a month. I don't know if people are like lying on purpose or like they just don't understand. So when we talk about downloads, it's usually monthly downloads. So some people will give their all time downloads. Right. You know, Some people will give their downloads before the Apple iOS 17 update. Talk about that for a second because there are definitely people as algorithms change, both in podcasts or email or all of that, where there's one way of running and checking numbers before and then after the update, things are different.

41:50So what happened there? So iOS 17 update happened like a year and a half ago. And basically it removed automatic downloads on Apple. So in the past, if somebody listened to your show, and they didn't go on Apple, the next time they went on Apple, let's say they didn't go on Apple for six months. The next time they logged into their Apple app, it would download at the same time all the episodes that they missed. So it was just a lot of bloated downloads on Apple and podcasters lost anywhere from 40 to 70 % of their downloads on Apple. They weren't real listeners. They weren't real listeners. And they were also mostly back catalog downloads.

42:29So again, it was the downloading of all the old episodes typically. It really impacted legacy podcasters who were on Apple for a long time. So legacy podcasters on Apple are funny because a lot of people, they have tons of reviews, right? So if they started... What's up, young and profiterers? I remember when I first started Yap, I used to dread missing important calls. I remember I lost a huge potential partnership because the follow-up thread got completely lost in my messy communication system. Well, this year, I'm focused on not missing any opportunities. And that starts with your business communications.

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47:20And I saw that with a lot of my podcasters. A lot of my shows lost downloads. I was lucky because I had a really diverse strategy. Like I'm a big podcaster on CastBox. I have downloads on all these different platforms. So I didn't really see much of a hit, but other podcasters did. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So then where we're getting into with podcast growth and your show and all of that. So you're talking about how the downloads are calculated, but what's that in service of? So another thing that creators don't really understand is that your podcast has multiple variables to be successful at monetization.

47:54If you have 100 ,000 downloads on your podcast and you can only take one commercial, that means that you can only monetize 100 ,000 downloads. But if you have 100 ,000 downloads and you can fit six commercials on your podcast, suddenly you can monetize 600 ,000 downloads. Okay. Okay. So there's lots of ways to monetize and kind of expand the amount that you can make just on increasing your episode length, for example, and just getting creative. So for example, I created like a new inventory for my network of mini episodes that get 100 % share voice. So we're all sold out. So I have to think how do I make more inventory, you know?

48:32So one of the ways is through these mini feed episodes, there are 10 to 20 minute episodes that will do like six a quarter for a brand, a hundred percent share of voice. And it's sort of like a really long baked in ad. It's more expensive because it's like a full episode and we put it in the podcast, right? So now suddenly you can six X your downloads just by having a longer show where you can fit more commercials. So typically it's about for audio, it's about one commercial per 10 minutes. Okay. Is what you can fit comfortably. and you can also do creative things to monetize your show like paid interviews or miniseries or these other things like we were talking about webinars whatever else you want to do in terms of monetization.

49:13Let's talk about the world of paid interviews because this is something that I think both brands need to know and understand more about and the creators and the hosts need to know more of. How does this whole world work? I think that a lot of people just assume that every guest on a show is just someone that that would be interesting and you had them on and it's very casual in that way. But actually, there's a lot more happening behind the scenes. Yeah. So there's lots of different ways that people can do it. Some people are like, literally, you have to pay$3 ,000 to come on my show. And every single guest, for the most part, is paid, right?

49:48Very few shows like that, I think. But there are some shows where like, that's their entire monetization strategy. Most shows, especially reputable shows that have great content, great following, they're typically doing paid interviews when there's good brand fit. So for example, with my show, I interviewed the CEO of Just Thrive. She has like a probiotics company. She talks about gut health. She's really passionate about it. She has an awesome story. And she did like a tour on my network where she paid for the interviews. And then after the interviews, we did mid-rolls for her company. And it worked really well.

50:22And that's her like number one marketing strategy to grow her company is guesting on shows and then doing mid-rolls afterwards. So now she just does this at every network, but she started with YAP Media. So it's just like any other 360 campaign. It's very similar to the webinar campaign. We put together deliverables. So it includes an interview. It includes a link in the show notes. It includes mid-roll commercials, social posts, email blasts. And it's just a package of deliverables based on your channels and the impressions that you can guarantee. And you price it. And the way that you price it is really up to the podcaster's discretion.

50:58Like, what is it worth for you to have somebody on the show? And then you want to back into like a reasonable eCPM. So a CPM is for podcast commercials. And now eCPM is this new term for the CPM across all different deliverables. And so typically a good eCPM is anywhere from$40 to like$150. And the more that you are famous, you're like a celebrity where your endorsement is worth more, or the more difficult the project is. So for example, an interview is a lot easier than creating a whole presentation training, right? So an interview eCPM might be like$50, which is still higher than a commercial, which is$30.

51:40But a webinar might be like$80 because it's just harder to do, right? So you always want to put some sort of CPM behind it or else the brand is going to be like, well, this is just doesn't make sense. I came back into this, you know? Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so a brand is thinking about it. of how do I build credibility for my executive or the brand as a whole? Yep. And then how do we follow that up with buying more impressions? Because for example, if I were to come on your show as paying for the slot, then I know that a good chunk of your audience is going to hear that episode. Yep. And so then over the next month or more, as I'm running ads on your show, then they're going to be like, oh yeah, I listened to anything on the podcast.

52:22I know what kid is. Exactly. And then they're more likely to take action. Right. podcasting, you really need to repeat, like have repetition. And if you have a whole interview, that's basically an hour long commercial for yourself to get people bought in to trust. And then if you're playing a commercial for another month, the listener has so many chances to remember the link that they need to click to follow up. So the listener just has more chances to actually take action. Do you think that are a lot of shows doing paid interviews or is it really like if you had to guess of the shows over a hundred thousand downloads a month, like what?

53:00I think it's like, it's not a lot because most podcasters, if they're going to have, first of all, like once you become a bigger podcaster, like you don't want to have just random people on your show. Right. So for me, it like has to have really good brand fit. They have to be able to afford it, which like most people, you know, you tell them$18 ,000 to come on a show. That's a hard sell for some people. Right. So, and for bigger podcasters, they might charge$50 ,000,$80 ,000, you know? So I think they're like every so often, but not every single episode. So they might be doing one out of every six to 12 episodes.

53:34Exactly. More than that. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And then it does end up driving a meaningful percentage of revenue or is it still usually small relative to the rest of the advertising? So on average on my network, it's usually 60 % commercials, 40 % other stuff, whether that's social paid interviews. And I would say in my network, people are doing paid interviews like every other month. I want to get more of them, right? They're just hard to secure. The other thing with paid interviews is sometimes it's like an upsell for the brand. So for example, with Shopify, I have the most commercials out of anybody for Shopify, right?

54:11And so I interviewed all their top founders that use Shopify as like a paid interview series, right? So you can also like upsell to the brands. I did something with the Olympics where I interviewed all these Olympians. And that's great content for your show. Yeah. Right. Because someone's like, oh, we'll pay the$18 ,000 for the interview and we want to have this person on. And you're like, no. Yeah. No. Who's the person that's going to deliver a ton of value and really elevate the brand? And the benefit of like pricing high is if they can afford it, they probably have something cool to say because they can afford that cost, you know?

54:44So. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. What about if we dive into growing shows? Yeah. So we talked about the LinkedIn strategy. What are some other things that work really well for growing shows? So there's like two avenues that you can take. There's media buying. And that's really getting advertising on the different podcast players. So there's about 40 different podcast player apps out there. There's Apple and Spotify, right? And the way to get organic visibility on there is through PSO. And like, you can't really buy ads on Apple and Spotify. What's PSO? Podcast search optimization.

55:17Okay. So it's like the SEO of podcasts, PSO. Something I'm obsessed with lately. It's like my number one thing that I'm obsessed with right now. Okay, well, let's dive into that for a second. I always want to talk about someone's obsession. What are the things that make a difference in search optimization? So I'm still like testing stuff. But basically what I found out, and we can take Spotify and Apple are two different algorithms. So we can start with Spotify. What I found out so far is that all the different metadata points are ranked differently. So your title is ranked the highest. Your author title is second highest.

55:50then your description, then your titles, then your just show notes. When I say description, I mean your podcast description. As a whole, not the individual episode. And the key is to have the same keywords repeating throughout all of them. Okay. So something that I've done is I put entrepreneur marketing and sales in my title now. And now I don't even want to give these secrets away. I'm like, wait, should I tell these secrets? But yeah. But you're noticing that you're ranking higher for those search terms. Yes. So it's all about repeating the same search terms throughout all the different metadata spots.

56:29And the impact of the keywords in your title and author title and your show titles are ranked way more heavily than your show notes. For your show notes, you want to have keywords in the first two to three lines. Nothing else really matters after that. And again, it's the same keywords over and over again. So this is something that I always kind of knew, but I never proved it. I always kicked myself for calling my podcast Young and Profiting and not like Young Entrepreneur. Okay. Because it would have gotten way more organic search and visibility within the apps had I just called it Young Entrepreneur than Young and Profiting.

57:05Because nobody's searching Young or Profiting, but they're searching Entrepreneur, right? So having a keyword in your title is so important. If you don't have a big show, I would definitely right now go change your name to something with a main keyword. And you can actually use a tool called Asha. Okay. A-U-S-H-A. It's a new tool, and it will show you how you rank on all these different keywords and you can track it. And that's what I've been using to kind of like test things. Okay. So Apple is really heavily based on keyword using the same keyword over and over again. And Apple, I believe is the same thing, but it also...

57:40Spotify is the same thing? So Spotify is using the same keywords over and over again. Apple is similar, except I believe that they heavily weigh how popular your show is. Okay. So on Spotify, you can rank very easily, no matter how popular you are, just if you've got a good keyword strategy. On Apple, it seems like it's tracking your downloads and then deciding who gets shown based on their popularity. Does that make sense? Yep. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Oh, man, there's so many things in that. Okay, so that takes us down. So that's the PSO. Yeah. Okay, that side. Now let's go back to you talking about advertising in these other podcast players.

58:19Well, I have another tip for PSO that's really hot. Okay, so on Apple, on the bottom of the show, and I actually told you this when we were on the phone the other day. On the bottom, it says podcasts you may like or podcasts like this, something like that on the bottom. That is one of the only organic discoverability features that Apple has, other than ranking on the charts, like we just talked about. The way that you get on that is by guessing on other shows. So if I go guest on Lori Harder's show, people listen to that, they end up following me because I went on her show. Now, if she goes on my show, they end up following her because she went on my show.

59:01And they show podcasts based on who has mutual subscribers. So now because I went on Lori's show and I invested in guesting on her show, my show pops up when people go on her show and that's discoverability from my show. So big strategy would be guesting on other shows so that you can get in not only that episode, but there's a long tail effect of getting in this podcast like this feature. That makes sense. Yeah. So yeah, you're getting the instant return from being perceived as an expert in front of a new audience. Yeah. And then Apple is saying, hey, there's mutual subscribers here. Yep. And it's a very genuine people who like show A.

59:42Yep. Seem to like show B. And it's like, yeah, because they... Yeah. And then also on Apple, there's channel pages now for networks. And so there's also, if you're part of a network in their Apple channel page, there's also another bar that says podcasters in the network, right? So that's also how you get organic discoverability is joining a network who has an Apple page. Okay. Yeah. So then talking about advertising in these other players, how does that work? So every player has a different advertising strategy and there's a bunch of them. There's Podcast Addict, Player FM, CastBox, Overcast, right?

1:00:18So there's all these different podcast players and you can get banners in their apps. You can get integrated into their onboarding series. So when somebody signs up for the app, it can say like, select the categories you're interested in and then it will say like recommended shows and they might pre-select you subscribing to them. They can put you in the featured, they can send push notifications to their users. So there's all these different ways. And really what you want to do is test these apps, see what the retention is like, which is really easy to do because most likely if you're a podcaster and you've never bought on these apps, you probably have like 10 downloads from that player.

1:00:56And then you can just see like, okay, during the promotional period, I got X downloads. A month later, I got this much. A month later, I got this much. And you can see like, does this retain or not? And then if it does and you're happy with it, you just keep buying it. So like I personally love CastBox and Player.fm and I do media buying with them all the time. Is that something that creators should put a thousand dollars a month behind or would you spend even more than that so usually these packages range anywhere from like five to ten thousand dollars a month so usually it's like if you're already monetizing or you want to monetize and this is more for like volume so if you've got a broad show yeah it's good for that but if you're like really niche it's not a good strategy because you're basically just advertising to anybody who's on the app right right so if you've got a broad show like mine, it's a great strategy.

1:01:46But if you have a niche show, better just guest on other niche shows is a better strategy for you. That makes a lot of sense. Or commercials on other niche shows. Something that I'm fascinated by from the outside is watching different creators maybe move between networks. So for example, I feel like when HubSpot came out with their network and they're ramping this up, one, I thought that it worked differently than it did. Mostly they're just facilitating swaps and buying their own ad inventory. But I watched a bunch of big podcasters come on with them. And then I've actually seen a decent number of those large podcasters leave HubSpot and go to your network.

1:02:23So you take someone like Jenna Kutcher as an example, what goes into winning her over from any of these other networks to your network? Yeah. I think with these big creators, most of the selling is control. You can still have control. They trust me. I'm their friend. I'm not this big, scary, serious network or like some guy that they don't know that they're signing to. I'm the head honcho at Yap Media. They already know me. So they know that like, they could just text me like, yo, holla, like blah, blah, blah, whatever the problem is, you know? Instead of like, oh, well, yeah, let me talk to my boss.

1:02:58And then I'll try to get the director, whoever. Actually, it's really funny because so many of my podcasters are podcasters that have never signed to a network before because you mentioned HubSpot, but they weren't really a real network. They were an advertiser that was just calling themselves a network. They were just buying a pre-roll and a mid-roll. They did not have sales exclusivity. So like for me, if you're a network, you are responsible for all of the podcaster sales. So for a while, Jenna was on paper in the HubSpot network and I was doing all her ads, including sliding her HubSpot stuff.

1:03:30But I was getting her, she's got five ads. One of them is HubSpot and I was doing the other four, right? And sliding her HubSpot ad. So yeah, it wasn't really a real network. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So then when you're saying, hey, I'm already doing this, fully come over. Yeah, because I helped explain to her as well, because she was confused too. Like, she was like, I'm part of the HubSpot network. And I was like, are they running your sales? No. Can you get more ads? Yes. Okay. Are they hosting your show? No. Okay. They're not flighting your ads. Then they're not a network. They're just an advertiser that has branded themselves as a network.

1:04:09Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And so in that, right, as you win her over and you're taking over all of the sales and - Yeah, all the ops, all the sales, all the tech stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so where do you take that from there? Like, what are some of the first things that when you bring over a big show like that, that you're like, all right, here's everything that we're optimizing in. During the onboarding, we're transferring their RSS feed, their audio RSS feed to our network account on Megaphone. And that's actually really simple. So a lot of podcasters are scared of this, right? But that takes an hour, right?

1:04:42Just moving their RSS from wherever they were to like a modern advertising platform. Usually it's Art19, Megaphone. I think Captivate might be another one. There's only really three. Then we're going through their whole back catalog. We're removing all the old commercials and we're agreeing on an ad load. So this is a conversation that we have with the podcasters. Hey, your show's 45 minutes. I think we can put four ads comfortably, four mid-rolls, maybe two pre-rolls. One can be for your internal promotions, the pre-roll. One can be for sale. And we're kind of like negotiating, like, what is a good ad load?

1:05:16This can change over time, right? Like I mentioned, everything is collaborative. So then we're setting up the show to feature-proof it, whatever their max ad load they're comfortable with. And then we're just helping them with their episode frequency, length, all the things that we need to make sure that we're able to project impressions for advertisers. And then we're coming up with their monthly catalog number? Once they're in our megaphone, we're getting all their downloads. Then the next step is what is their monthly catalog number that we're going to start selling them at? Okay. Then we're trying to get a gauge of here's the top hundred advertisers we work with.

1:05:49Do you approve? Do you not approve? Then we're hitting the ground running, trying to get sponsorships. One of the things we didn't talk about yet is the way that we sell differently in terms of at YAP, we're focused on monthly flights. So other networks, they might sell weekly dynamic flights. And a lot of them are selling that faked in strategy that I was talking to you about. Right. So we sell full monthly flights. So for somebody like Jenna, who takes five ads on her show, that's only five brands a month that can sponsor her show. So all year, I'm trying to get her tests. So like a new show comes on, let's say they have no advertisers, they've never advertised before.

1:06:27Okay. My job is to get them as many tests as possible and renewals for the year so that by the time like September, November, December comes that I'm booking them annual deals. So that's a big part of how you're getting sold out for such a long period of time is you're like, I'm not dealing with, oh, I want to sponsor two episodes or something like that, you're saying. So like our minimum is one month flights and typically people are testing two or three months at a time. So our tests are two to three months flights. Then if you perform well, you get a renewal. Sometimes this renewal is till end of year.

1:07:01That's the goal, right? So we want to perform so well that brands, they'll test for two, three months, and then they're going to renew for the rest of the year. Okay. So if you're with a network that is churning and burning advertisers, they're doing it wrong. Okay. They're not strategic. They're just looking for scraps and you're just getting scraps all month. Basically, you're doing a lot of work because you're having to read all these different commercials. Your audience is getting a bad experience because you've got 20 different brands that you're repping. For example, like Shopify has sponsored me for like four years now.

1:07:32Indeed, four years. Masterclass. Like I just, LinkedIn, I have the same sponsors. I already know what my sponsors are. Like they don't change. Airbnb, they don't change. So my goal for like a new podcaster is like, I need to, first of all, get them in front of the brands that sponsor my whole network, like Shopify, Indeed, Airbnb, LinkedIn, get them tests, get them renewals. And then in September, November, December, Remember, this is called the podcast upfront season. Okay. That's when we're trying to negotiate all the annual deals. Okay. The worst time I would say to join a network is in that period.

1:08:07Because you don't have any tests. Because everyone's focused on annual deals. And so the slowest order of the year is Q1 because everybody was focused on annual deals in Q4. So whenever somebody sends me in Q4, I'm like, oh, this is going to be suck for them, you know? But it is what it is. they didn't do their test yet. And we've got to focus on the annual deals. So for example, by the time Jan one hit, my network was 60, 70 % sold out already for the year because everybody had three, four annual deals on their show. And that took up spots for the whole year. And then now what's left is just two spots and the highest performing shows, usually the bigger shows end up being the highest performing shows are already sold out a hundred percent.

1:08:49So like I had one spot left. Tori Dunlap had a couple spots. Jenna Kutcher. Like if you're a bigger show, you're usually also a top performer. Now, so you've shared all kinds of stuff, various specific tactics and all of that. But I want to, as we wrap up, go as actionable as possible. Okay. And maybe if we could take two different sizes of creators. So someone who's getting 50 ,000 downloads per month, and then a creator who's getting 300 ,000 downloads per month. Okay. Like what are the things that you would go and implement right away? Okay. So if you're getting 50 ,000 downloads per month, I would recommend that you start dabbling and getting sponsorships because you are big enough for certain networks.

1:09:31Okay. So there's these networks like AdvertiseCast and Gumball. They cater to non-exclusive podcasts, which means they don't host their podcast. Okay. So you don't need to move anything. You can still do your own independent thing. It's a really great option for like people who want to stay independent and sort of like dabble in advertising. So you sign up with Gumball, you sign up with AdvertiseCast, you're non-exclusive with them, and they just start sending you deals. You've got to flight everything yourself. They're not going to help with your ad ops at all. You're likely going to just start with BakedIn or FakedIn, depending on if you can get on Megaphone or not.

1:10:10And you can start just monetizing, getting a feel for it. So that's how I first started. I was independent. And I just started with AdvertiseCast, Gumball. And then I was like, wait a second, who are they working with? And then I figured out like all the agencies they were working with and I started bypassing them and then started my own network, right? So that's a good place to start. You can also start reaching out direct to brands. So let's say you have a company and you use 50 different tools. So what I used to do is I used to just go, okay, we use Slack, we use Indeed, we use this, we use that.

1:10:41Let's just reach out to them. Sometimes these brands will reroute you to their agency if they work with a podcast agency. Now suddenly you've got podcast agency contacts. And that was a good introduction. You didn't come in. It's like, oh, the brand made the introduction to the person. And they're like, oh, I'm trying to keep this brand happy because they're a client of mine. So let me take the... Yeah, so you can work direct with the brands and come up with your deals yourself. You're going to use CPM models. So there's so much information online about podcast CPMs. They're typically$22 to$30, depending on your niche.

1:11:11and you can put a package together of probably baked in if you're not with a network and you don't want to get too techie. And you can also sell social media. You can sell webinars. You can sell whatever you want directly to these brands, right? And getting experience with Advertise Casting Gumball will teach you how podcast ads work and how to do them and all. And then you'll be able to sell direct better because you'll already know how it all works, right? So that's what I would recommend for 50 ,000. Now, if you're 300 ,000 plus and you're in business, self-improvement and society and culture, come talk to me.

1:11:44Yes, exactly. But seriously, you are a great candidate for a network, okay? So for you, I want you to think about how can you max your downloads? You want to think about like episode frequencies. So one of the quickest ways to do that, if you are only putting out four episodes a month, make it eight. Usually it's like a 30 % increase in downloads off the bat, okay? If you've been podcasting for a long time, play old episodes. Like I do yap classic episodes twice a month of older content, or I'll play my guest appearances. Like I would love to play your episode on my podcast. I think my listeners will love it.

1:12:20Right. And so you can get creative, especially if you speak or whatever to double your episodes. And now suddenly you have 30 % more impressions to sell. Okay. The guest appearances is an interesting one because if you're doing an interview show, you spend all of this time drawing all the expertise out of someone else. and you know if you look maybe you talked 20 % the other person talked 80 % that's just that's how an interview goes yeah but then if you invert it your own audience hasn't heard as much of your expertise so it's like take the guest interview and they love it right so like my audience loves to hear my appearances because I don't do that much solo episodes or you can add solo episodes is another idea right so the frequency of your episodes the lengths like I said there's multiple variables of how you can make money the number of commercials that you can put on a show.

1:13:09So if you have an hour long show, you can put six ads. So if your show's only 20 minutes and you want to monetize, can you make it 40 minutes? Because you'll make a lot more money. You'll make double the amount of money if you made it 40 minutes, right? So there's little things you would tweak. You would want to think about, okay, like if I'm really going to be serious about monetizing, maybe I should be guesting on shows once a month to grow my show, joining a network so that you could be in all these growth programs. Like, so for example, we're going to do like PSO revamps for all of our shows and like you're taking what you've learned from your own experiments and they're like all right this is what's working now we're gonna go implement it and I have relationships with all these podcast players because I've done so much media buying with them so now we do like in exchange for five thousand dollars of social media you get ten thousand subscribers on cast box like right so we're doing that all the time for our podcasters so you get into these growth programs for more advanced podcasters and chances are if you're that big of a podcast you've got your own business going on you want to be with a partner who's going to handle all the tech, make it easy for you, create recording packs and do, you know, to make it as easy as possible for you to monetize.

1:14:12Yeah. So those are my two recommendations. I like it. That's very specific. So just going back to the beginning, you know, we came on talking about your show and doing 600 ,000 revenue last year on track for a million this year, just have your show. But I think what's so interesting is that the other business opportunities beyond that are worth$6 million combined. And that's like just going to keep - Hopefully$10 million this year, yeah. Yeah, just keep growing and everything from there. And that's the power of attention. When you can get in front of the right people and you have the right message, like the level of business that you can build is absolutely amazing.

1:14:49Yeah. So thanks so much for coming on, for sharing all of this. I had so much fun. This was such a great interview. Thank you. Thanks for being one of the first, or actually the very first to record in Kix Studios Chicago. Your studios are beautiful, Nathan. Congratulations. Thank you. Where should people go either to follow your show and maybe connect with you on LinkedIn, but also if they're like, all right, I am that 300 ,000 subscriber, 300 ,000 download show, and I'd like some of this managed for me. So Young and Profiting is my podcast. It is an amazing entrepreneurship show. I highly recommend you guys go check me out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you like to watch your shows.

1:15:26And then yapmedia.com, Y-A-P media.com. If you want to check out agency stuff, network, fill out a recruitment form, whatever you want to do, it's all there. I love it. Thanks so much for coming on. Yeah. Thank you. I hope this episode lit a fire under you, whether you're a podcast, content creator, marketer, or just somebody out here trying to grow your impact. Remember, we all start from zero. We all start from scratch. I didn't launch Young and Profiting with a fancy team or a big budget. I was working full time, doing this as a side hustle, grinding every day and night because I believed in my vision.

1:15:59And that belief allowed me to recruit other people who helped me build it alongside of me because you can't do it alone. And now we've grown into a multi-million dollar show, a soon to be eight figure business, a network of some of the top creators in the world. Some of the people that I used to look up to like John Lee Dumas, Russell Brunson, Neil Patel, Laurie Harder, Jenna Kutcher, they're all in my network and I'm responsible for their podcast monetization. And while I am the podcast princess and I'm one of the biggest experts in podcast monetization, the thing I want you to know is that I'm still learning.

1:16:29I'm still learning every day and I'm still trying to learn more and more. And that's the mindset you need if you wanna build something meaningful. You need to be an expert, something that lasts requires consistency, curiosity, courage, competency. And if there's one thing I want you to take away from this episode, it's that your voice matters. So with the right strategy, the right positioning and the right energy, you can turn your message into a movement just like young and profiting. Thank you so much for tuning in to this Yap Live episode. I hope you guys got a chance to check us out on Spotify Video or YouTube.

1:16:59Make sure you subscribe if you're a new listener of the show. I appreciate you guys so much more than you know. Keep showing up. Keep dreaming big. And as always, listen, learn, and profit. This is your host, Halataha, aka the Podcast Princess, signing off.