How AI is Changing the Game for Entrepreneurs and Content Creators | Artificial Intelligence | YAPCreator Replay | E6

22:56Hala Taha:I had my entrepreneurship peer group over and everybody was like kids in a candy store trying out everything. Daily Greens, a light sparkling green drink with 42 vitamins and superfoods, Energy Plus, their caffeinated drink, and the Complete Nutrition Bar. All five products come in the Huel Discovery Bundle, heavily discounted, plus a free t-shirt and shaker. It's the best way to try everything and see what works for you. Join me today with this limited time offer and get$50 in savings with the Discovery Bundle from Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15 % off online with my code YAP15 at Huel.com slash YAP15.

23:32Hala Taha:That's H-U-E-L.com slash Y-A-P-15, Huel.com slash YAP15. New customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show. AI is not just helpful for generating ideas. It can do so much more. As I discussed with the video marketing expert, Ken Okazaki, AI can also generate multiple title and hook options for improved content performance. So for hooks, lately I've been using ChatGBT for anything that I have to come up with some sort of title. I'm like, say this in 10 different ways, right? Have you been using ChatGBT for that kind of thing? We have this one-on-one coaching with our clients because a lot of agencies, they actually provide all the tools.

24:13They say, just send us the video and we'll do everything else for you. Send us the podcast, we'll do everything or we'll give you all the gear. And the gap in the market is actually someone to show up and live direct and coach people. A lot of people, they don't create it because they don't have the time, their schedule's too full or they get set up and then their hour turns into 15 minutes because of all the other stuff they have to take care of, but the accountability. So our coach is actually now using some AI, using their own experience as marketers. will create all of the content plans. And that's the hook.

24:43Whether it's a question you ask them that they can answer, whether it's finish the sentence, whether it's a framework. I have a few frameworks, like what I just showed you, the number and the emotional word. There's a hundred others. But we'll get them all planned out. And then we'll have a conversation for an hour and shoot anywhere from 10 to 30 videos within that hour. And that's the short form content. So the hooks nowadays using ChatGPT does help us get there faster. So we're no longer starting from zero. We're starting from maybe 60 or 70. and then our coaches will finish the rest.

25:11Hala Taha:Yeah, I love that. AI can also help you repurpose your content across different platforms, maximizing its reach and impact. For example, AI can help you take an audio podcast content and create text-based content, social media clips, videos, and more. And according to the online marketing guru, Neil Patel, this kind of content repurposing can be a game changer for marketing purposes. What are the biggest trends that you see this year in marketing? The biggest trend that we're seeing this year right now in marketing is podcasting. So people look at podcasting. We surveyed over 8 ,000 companies and we found that the two big trends were podcasting and AI.

25:52And here's what I mean by that. When we look at the total number of blogs out there, it's over a billion. When you look at the total number of podcasts out there, it's less than 10 million. It's a wide open ocean. And then people are starting to repurpose that content and use it all over the place because you can use a podcast content to turn it into text-based content. You can use it to turn it into social media clips, whether it's shorts or long form video. And what's really cool is when you do podcasts, a lot of times people are doing them with other people like you and I are, and we're both gonna push this on all our social profiles and we're both gonna get play from this.

26:25So it's actually a really amazing win-win strategy for both of us, right? So companies are really pushing hard on podcasting and they're pushing really hard on AI. What can they automate? And most people look at AI like, oh, I can use open AI to help write content and I can use them to figure out how to create images. But there's much more to AI from when we interviewed companies. A big portion of what they're looking to use AI from in a marketing standpoint is analytics. How can you have AI analyze your analytics on a daily basis and tell you where the wastage is within your marketing campaigns and where you can cut costs and reallocate money?

27:03because if you look at the biggest expense in marketing, it's not services. It's not writing a piece of content. It's actually spending money on paid advertising. Look at the revenue that Google is generating and Facebook is generating. I think Google still is like a trillion dollar company or somewhere around there, depending on the month you're in. And Facebook's still a massive company. We spend so much money on ad dollars. Imagine if analytics were analyzed by AI and it told us quicker when to cut our losses.

27:31Hala Taha:Another area where AI can help you magnify your reach is in public relations. Here's Jen Gottlieb again talking about paid versus earned PR and the difference that AI can make. Let's talk about paid. Paid versus earned. Earned is always the best. Always the best because it's earned media, right? They chose you to be on their platform. They chose you. So it's always going to be the most organic. It's always going to feel the best. It's always going to actually elevate your brand. some forms of paid media, you can actually tell it was paid. And so that it can actually kind of make your brand look a little shitty.

28:02Excuse my language. It can do that. But here's the thing. Sometimes, sometimes I have seen clients that have maybe done a paid sponsorship on a big show or strategically did some paid media where they were prepared to amplify it in a way that was going to create more credibility, influence, and authority in a big way. So as long as you know that you're going to like, let's say you do a paid sponsorship, you've got a product. Let's say it's a food product. And I know that the Today Show, Good Morning America, sometimes they'll have sponsors. I know that I think some of the other daytime shows like Drew Barrymore, like you can pay to get your product on that show.

28:36So if you go into it, not like, okay, all the people on the show are going to watch and see it. That's amazing. But how am I going to take this actual segment, this clip that I have, or this photo of me and my brand on the show and amplify it, send it out in emails, put it on my website, make 85 ,000 reels out of it, make an entire podcast out of it, use AI to take the actual content, repurpose the transcript of the entire interview, and make so many posts and tweets and threads. You could take one segment and you could make a year's worth of content out of that one segment. If you do it that way, I don't care what you do, if you pay or if it's earned.

29:13Obviously, it's always better earned, but it's what you do with it that counts.

29:16Hala Taha:AI can make content generation and deployment so easy at times that you can lose sight of your own role in the finished product. The networking expert Michelle Tillis-Letterman cautions that while AI can automate some tasks for us, it's important to maintain a human touch and authenticity in your content. I think AI is really going to help people with technical skills. and these hard skills that we once used to need to go to school for and train for and memorize, we no longer are going to need to do that because AI is going to handle the hard skills for us. But what it can't do is the soft skills.

29:52Hala Taha:And that's what makes connectors so special, right? And so I think being a connector is going to be actually more valuable and a skill that more hiring managers and people are going to desire as time goes on. And as AI starts to take more precedent in the workplace, I think being a connector is going to even be more valuable. I do worry about AI kind of removing the authenticity from our communications. Because one of the things AI does for us is it helps us draft communications really quickly. And then we might edit. But we might be, you know, sending things without really putting ourselves into them.

30:25And that's where that authenticity and that connection can get lost. So use it for what it does, which is speed us up. But make sure that you kind of bookend it with the essence of you.

30:40Hala Taha:Finally, I wanted to take a step back and sketch out a future where AI is at the core of content creation and what it means to be an online entrepreneur. First, I want you to hear from Tom Bilyeu, who told me that the world as we know it as a content creator will end in the next two years. Here's his thoughts about increased competition as a creator with AI and how he thinks we should try to manage all this change. AI tools will make it such that all of the things that we use as a moat are gonna go away. So it takes a while to master all the tools. It takes a while to get all the different people on your podcast, all that stuff.

31:17What's going to end up happening is all of this information is gonna fracture, like hyper fracture. And somebody will be able to have an idea for a video with or without a guest. I mean, you could post videos of like, here's my conversation, my imagined conversation with Elon Musk, stuff like that. And instead of actually needing to get that person on your podcast, you just have the AI spin up his personality. You ask a bunch of questions. And if you do it in a way that the audience finds more interesting than the next person, then that's going to be what it's going to be. So what's going to end up happening is right now, it's already changed so much.

31:51You're so young, you probably don't have a sense of just how much it's already changed. But like when I was growing up, there was, you know, whatever, five channels and that was it. and they controlled the narrative. And we didn't even realize the narrative was being controlled. And then as things have gone to social, now you start seeing things break apart. Now, when I started podcasting, people literally like, Tom, why are you doing this? It's already played out. All the players that are there that are gonna be there. It's already decided, man, it's too late. When I started, there were 400 ,000 podcasts.

32:21There's now 6 million podcasts. So the world has just changed absolutely dramatically. and that's going to keep happening where the format of a podcast itself is going to get disrupted by, you know, somebody alone with an AI doing things that nobody's ever thought of before. And the difficulty of production, the friction of going from idea to execution is the current moat. That's going to go away, which means this will be more like TikTok. So instead of there being a person that has a podcast, take a Rogan or something like that, instead of that person dominating the landscape, you're going to have like, oh, one of his episodes might pop off, but somebody else is going to release something else that's a totally unique format that nobody saw coming.

33:06And it'll just be like that. And people will just be scrolling onto the next, onto the next, onto the next. And that's going to happen across everything. It's going to happen across video game production, which I trust me, I have just as much anxiety as you. But the key is to adopt AI faster than the competition. And then just remember that, one, we're moving towards an abundance reality where if AI does all of the wildly disruptive stuff that people think it's going to do over the next, say, 10 years, it's also going to be dropping the cost of virtually everything. So everything is just getting cheaper.

33:42Now, this takes you into a post-capitalistic society. And there are big questions around what that looks like, but people will have access to the things that they want for far, far, far cheaper. Now that doesn't mean people won't find a way to peacock through other means because we will, but especially when you throw in the mix brain computer interfaces, this is all going to get real weird. There are already people that can play video games, like proper video games using just their brain computer interface.

34:11Hala Taha:Oh my God. It's nuts. That is so nuts. And you were just saying when you first started 400 ,000 podcasts and everyone was telling you, you know, there's no chance it's already saturated. AI is going to make things even more saturated. So what is your perspective about the increased competition? And, you know, if there's even a point to participate, if there's going to be that much competition? So I think people make a mistake when they do preemptive quitting or preemptive strikes. The reality is you want to pay attention. You want to be at the cutting edge. You want to be integrating AI right now.

34:46AI is a phenomenal tool and it is a terrible master. So it's not going to be able to do things without humans yet. So people should be excited right now for this phase. It's going to allow you to do more with less. And so if you're somebody like you that's paying attention, you've got a whole thesis, you know what you're moving towards. AI is going to help you keep costs down, help you stay really nimble. Now, if AI starts changing the landscape, then just pay attention. Like, okay, what do we need to do to stand out? How do we add value? And yes, it's going to change things. And yes, some people are going to get smashed into little pieces.

35:19But if you're really paying attention and if you continue to look at where is the puck going to go, then you'll be in better shape. Now I've often made the quip that yes, you should always skate to where the puck is going to go, but it's getting a little hard now because the puck is teleporting, but it's still, it's the right idea. You want to pay attention to, okay, predictive engine, where is this going? What does this mean for content creation? I think there is going to be that hyper fragmentation. I think this is really going to be about deep communities. So part of the reason that I'm on Twitch now doing my video game streaming is that yes, I'm building a video game.

35:56So I need to build a community around that, but also historically I've built audiences, not communities. And so this is a chance for me to really build a deep community where the interactions are very different. And that's going to be something that AI will have a hard time with just because people know on the other side of this is not a person, it's AI. And so I think there will be some things that people just have a weird resonance when it's AI versus when it's a real person. So I'll be looking for opportunities like that. I'll be looking for places where I want to lean into the humanity of it all.

36:28And I'll be looking for places where I want to lean into the AI of it all. But because I don't push back on the way the world actually is, AI is here. AI will keep getting better. AI may slow down, but I don't think it's going to stop. So I'm just paying attention to where it's at and how I can leverage it for now.

36:45Hala Taha:Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.

36:52Hala Taha:Yap gang, on the show, I've sat down with Robert Greene, Seth Godin, Alex from Mosey, Gretchen Rubin, James Clear, so many epic, epic guests. And what do all these guests have in common? Every single one of them has a best-selling book, and every one of those books are on Boinkist. Here's something I've been thinking about. With AI, everybody has access to the same answers, but the people who actually read, who absorb real ideas and think for themselves, they're the ones with the original take in the room. AI can summarize, but it cannot replace the frameworks that you build by reading widely.

37:24Hala Taha:That's your real edge as an entrepreneur. Blinkist turns the world's best nonfiction into 15-minute reads or listens. Over 9 ,000 titles covering entrepreneurship, marketing, psychology, habits, all the things we talk about on this show. I use Blinkist to go through several books a week, pull out the key insights, and then I decide which ones I want to read fully. Between meetings, at the gym, whenever I have 15 minutes, I'm listening to Blinkist. In a world where everybody is copying the same AI output, reading is the thing that can make you different. Grab your free trial plus an exclusive 30 % discount at Blinkist.com slash profiting.

38:02Hala Taha:That's Blinkist.com slash profiting.

38:07Hala Taha:Hey, Yap Fam. If something unexpected happened to you tomorrow, would the people who depend on you be financially okay? I asked myself that question and honestly, I didn't love my answer. And that's what pushed me to get covered with Fabric by Gerber Life. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today, made for busy parents and entrepreneurs like you, all online, on your schedule, right from your couch if you wanted to. You could be covered in 10 minutes with no health exam required. And the cost is way lower than you'd expect, up to a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day.

38:42Hala Taha:There's also a 30-day money-back guarantee so you can cancel at any time. So really, what are you waiting for? When my dad passed away in 2020, he had life insurance, and that was a big help for my mom. I honestly don't know what would have happened if that wasn't the case. So thankfully, he was smart enough to get life insurance. Are you smart enough to do the same? Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com slash profiting. That's meetfabric.com slash profiting. M-E-E-T, fabric.com slash profiting. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company.

39:19Hala Taha:Not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions.

39:27Hala Taha:Yap gang, here's a reality about scaling a business that nobody's talking about. More vendors, more invoices, more payments flying around. And if you don't have a clean system for managing bills, things can get messy really quickly. And that's where Intuit QuickBooks Bill Pay comes in. It helps you manage and pay your business bills directly inside QuickBooks so everything stays organized in one place. You can see what's due, control approvals, and understand how payments affect your cashflow. Vendors can also add their payment details, which saves you from having to chase them down for info. Instead of spending hours managing payments, wouldn't you rather be focused on building and scaling your business?

40:04Hala Taha:Start paying bills the smart way, not the hard way. Learn more at quickbooks.com slash billpay. Again, that's quickbooks.com slash billpay. Terms apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Incorporated license as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. While it's scary to think that AI is going to change everything, we can't just be scared. We've got to do something about it. And nobody's going to be more equipped to take on these challenges than entrepreneurs. We're creative, we're innovative, we're flexible, and we know how to manage people and eventually manage AI agents.

40:40Hala Taha:In fact, Reid Hoffman told me in the near future, we're going to have AI agents on our phones, devices, that become our personal assistants, tutors, drivers, advisors, and things that we can't even imagine yet. For the creative and innovative minds, AI won't be a threat. It's going to be a powerful amplifier. It will dramatically enhance our abilities, expanding the scope and impact of their ideas. In essence, AI will become a force multiplier for human ingenuity. Here's a clip from my conversation with Reid Hoffman, the co-founder of LinkedIn and an early investor in OpenAI, on AI agents, content creation, and the wild feature that he predicts for us.

41:20Part of what freaks people out a little bit is like, you know, we are going to this agentic universe. We're all of a sudden, as opposed to having phones and PCs, which we'll still have, we'll have agents. And by the way, we'll have more than one. We may have one that we're, you know, particularly the hollow or read, you know, ongoing companion, always, you know, always around us and helping us with things. But there's going to be a suite of them, you know, with kind of different specialties and different engagements. And by the way, you're, you know, your office is going to have one. Your working group is going to have one.

41:50And, you know, probably your podcast is going to have one, you know, et cetera. And we hear fairly soon and people say, well, if they're agentic, does that take my agency away? And the answer is no. The same way that when you work with colleagues and you work with employees and everything else, that expands your agency. That doesn't take it away. And by the way, you know, these agents will be making predictions off all the data, which is a lot more than any of us have, about what things will be really good for us.

42:16Hala Taha:Yeah. I mean, I have to say, thinking about agents is so mind blowing. And when I think about AI, and all the talks that I've had, a lot of people talk about it as being like a great equalizer. And we were just talking about how humans are not going to work and everything like that. But I'm competitive, right? So like, as I've been going through these conversations, I've been thinking about like, well, how am I going to be like, the best version of me? How am I going to be like a better entrepreneur and compete? But now, as I've thought about it more, I realize that it's like you have to be the best trainer of the AI.

42:48Hala Taha:Like, I kind of imagine everybody being an entrepreneur, having agents that work at their personal company, basically. And you basically have to be the best at coordinating your agents and figuring out how to, like, mobilize all that AI and all your AI support. And so smart people are going to be smarter at that, right? And creative and innovative people are going to be more creative and innovative when it comes to their own agents. And so I just feel like a lot of people are probably worried that, like, you know, there's not going to be any room for them, to your point, as humans. But I really think it's going to be how you manage your AI.

43:23In addition to training, it's also deploying, organizing, executing, you know, strategizing, all of the above. And that's part of the reason why, you know, kind of with super agency and the other kind of content that I've been trying to get out there in people's hands, like, start playing with it, start exploring, because you want to start building the muscles. And getting engaged with it is really important. And that's the most central thing. And again, part of the reason I called it agency, because it's like, you know, own your agency and go do it. And part of the super agency is when millions of us all start doing that, it benefits all of us much more than just even the technology benefits each of us individually by ourselves.

44:02Hala Taha:So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was trust when it comes to AI. Because I feel like a lot of people are worried about misinformation. There's so many deep fakes out there. And people are just worried about trust when it comes to AI. So what are your thoughts around that? So, look, trust is in, unfortunately, short supply these days, generally, not just with AI. Trust in institutions, trust in democracies, voting systems, other people's intent, you know, other kinds of things. So trust is challenging. Now, the way that you, that I think is going to be very important to build and maintain trust with AI is for the people who are building it to be very clear about, like, what their goals are, what they're doing, what they're doing to try to build and maintain trust.

44:49You know, part of the reason why, of course, you know, my encouragement with super agency is for people to go try it. Because as they begin to try it and learn what kinds of good things they can do, what kinds of things can be empowered, that will be the kind of thing that builds the kind of positive trust in these kinds of circumstances. And my advice to individuals, you know, encountering these things, like, you know, a classic suspicion is to say, well, big tech companies who are trying to make a lot of money are building these things and they're trying to make money from you. And it's like, well, by the way, trying to make money from you is usually offering you a product and service you really like that really is something that you come back for that you keep using.

45:25That's good for you. That's the goodness of modern business. So you go, OK, so which things should I trust these AIs on and which things should I not? And the answer is, well, if you generally shouldn't, you should understand that a company is trying to have you as a lifelong loyal customer. That generally speaking, most of them are smart about doing that. so they're going to try to make it good. If it's something that's particularly important to you, cross-checking it's important. Like, you know, when I go to GBD-4 and get a prompt and I go, you know, huh, that doesn't really make full sense to me.

46:00I'm going to go look at this a little bit more because it's like, okay, you know, if it said something about like, yeah, your lab, you know, your black lab can eat that mushroom. It's like, no, I really want to know.

46:11Hala Taha:Yeah, I'm going to double check that. You know, by the way, over time, these will get better and better for, you know, kind of how it operates. And so I think that's the kind of thing. But I think that's the only by engaging and using, having that dialogue match our experience over time, you know, being accountable as creators and companies for, you know, here are the things that we want in the use and here are the things that are still under development and being clear about that so that people have a sense of, okay, I understand it's not perfect, but it could be really good for me. We were talking about deep fakes before.

46:46Hala Taha:And I came across this interview of you interviewing your own AI on your YouTube. You call it Read AI. And it's an AI video avatar of you. Talk to us about how you felt in that interview. Did you learn anything from it? Did you help you realize anything about AI in the future? Well, so it came about primarily because I was like, look, here's a technology that everyone's so skeptical about. Our name for it is deep fakes. It's kind of like, if your name was disaster, okay. But actually it was more interesting as kind of a palette and exploration. Like if you said, well, would I only want to talk to read AI?

47:29Absolutely not. But would I want to talk to read AI sometimes in doing these things and have that as a way of kind of having a dialogue with myself and also showing kind of what's good at? Because once I did that, one of the things I realized is I was, after I made that, I was off to go give a speech at the University of Perugia in kind of defense of an honorary doctorate. And I sort of wrote out the speech. And then I went, you know, I could actually have Read AI give this speech. I'm only really fluent in English and all of these other languages, you know, ranging from Hindi to Chinese to Arabic to all these things.

48:04And to give the speech in those languages where people are much like, it was bizarre. listening to me, my voice, speaking Hindi or Chinese fluently. It's like, what would I sound like if I were speaking Chinese? Anyway, so, but it was like, it was humanizing, was with the thing I said. I thought I would really dislike it. And it was humanizing. And it started making me realize, just like any, just as I say to other people, hey, you should use the technology to get a sense of it and to reinforce your own agency with the technology. It was like, that was me doing that with that. And, you know, we continue to do new things with Read AI.

48:41Hala Taha:Yeah, it's so cool. I feel like in terms of content creation, I've got a lot of creator entrepreneurs that listen to the show. I feel like AI is totally going to change the game. Like even with me, I have my AI voice if I'm sick or if I'm like if I miss a commercial, we can use my AI voice as like an intermediate step. Like I'll always rerecord it usually, make sure that it's me. But it's really close to my voice. Like people really can't tell. and we're working on my AI video. And to your point, like people probably think I'm crazy creating my own deep fake, but I want to be able to scale myself and this is the future.

49:15Hala Taha:And you just gave me such a great idea in terms of the translations. You know, people love to watch content all over the world and not everybody speaks English. One last question for you on the future of AI. So you're obviously at the forefront of this. You've thought a lot about it. You've written books on AI. So I just want you, and you can take your time with us because I think it's very interesting. How do you imagine our world to be 5, 10, 20 years in the future with AI? What do you imagine the world to be like? Well, one of the things that's a great way to look foolish in the future is to make overly specific predictions.

49:50Partially because, you know, the usual principle I used to say in this is the future is sooner and stranger than you think. People thought in the 80s we're going to get AI, but we didn't get AI. We got the internet. We got mobile phone. Well, maybe now we're going to get AI. I mean, you know, we're going to get what shape of AI is the interesting question. What I think is kind of the minimum guarantee is there's going to be like, as opposed to like computer interfaces or phone interfaces or else, we're going to have agents. And agents are going to be the primary mode of kind of navigation. What we describe in super agency is an informational GPS.

50:26So in this entire informational digital world, we'll do that. And there will be more agents than there are people, especially when you consider the, even though there might be just one agent, Pi, that's kind of then instantiated with what it remembers out of its conversations and interactions with Hala, what it understands or remembers in its conversations and interactions with Reed, et cetera, et cetera. There's kind of this flow of agents. Now, one of the things that I think people haven't really fully tracked yet, but I think will be very interesting, is how agents end up talking to each other.

50:57Because when we have that many agents, you know, part of how you and I are going to coordinate, like we say, hey, what should we talk about in the podcast? Well, one of our preps will be your agent will talk to my agent.

51:08Hala Taha:Oh, my gosh. And they'll kind of go, well, you know, these topics will be really good. And, you know, hey, when you ask a question this way, it'll be great. And when you answer it this way, it'll be great. You know, and da-da-da-da. And, you know, that kind of thing. or this could be a really new, interesting thing to try. And that will be part of the world that we will be in. Part of that will then make the premium on thinking creatively, thinking differently. You know, as you mentioned, will be much higher. The notion that, for example, if you go back 30 years and you told someone there would be these jobs called web designer, data scientist, other things, they go, what are you talking about?

51:47you know crazy person from the future um and i think that's another thing that we're going to see even more of which is like oh didn't realize that was going to be the job huh and it's cool those are some of the things but i try not to make overly specific predictions because usually they're maybe i'll put it this way william gibson science fiction author has a really good quote which is the future is already here it's unevenly distributed and you know he's been a great Neuromancer, it was the internet, everything else. Now, he was being asked in an interview, like, how did you see the future?

52:22And he's like, look, thank you for the compliment. But by the way, if you read Neuromancer, sure, I got AI right. I got the internet right. I missed the mobile phone. And so that's the kind of thing that we're always looking for is that surprise and delight moment.

52:42Hala Taha:well yeah fam that's it for episode six the final episode of the yaf creator series as we've heard it in this series creating content isn't just about algorithms and views it's about connection storytelling and sharing your unique voice with the world thank you so much for tuning into this episode and the entire yaf creator series i hope you're now equipped with the tools and knowledge to thrive in your creator journey this is your host Halataha signing off and wishing you the best from one creator to another.