YAPClassic: Robert Cialdini, The Godfather of Influence and Persuasion Reveals All | Human Behavior

0:11Oh boy, young impropheters, we got a good one in store for you today. I'm so excited to say that we're replaying Robert Sheldini. I love it when like a classic is like really a classic. And man, this is like a classic Yap episode. And guys, I feel really pumped to play this because this is one of my favorite episodes. I remember when Robert Sheldini said yes to come on the show. I was so excited. It was episode 196 of the podcast. It first aired in November 2022. And I swear he was probably referenced on my podcast 50 times before I actually got him on the show. Everybody references him. Chase Hughes, Chris Voss, Alex Ramosi.

0:54Everybody uses his stuff because he is the godfather when it comes to influence. Robert Cialdini is a best-selling author, speaker, professor, social psychologist. He's known for his work on the science of influence. He's the author of the classic bestseller Influence, which has sold millions of copies. And in this episode, Robert digs deep into the seven universal principles of persuasion, including super interesting topics like social proof, authority, scarcity. We also get into his law of reciprocity. It's a super powerful influencing tool that I've continued to use to this day. And to be honest, I use all of Robert's stuff.

1:31His stuff is gold. There's so many gems in this conversation. If you're into sales and just persuasion, if you just want people to like you, you're going to love this episode. Let's get right into my conversation with the amazingly talented godfather of influence, Robert Sheldini.

1:52Robert, before we dive into persuasion and influence, I want to take it back to your career journey. You actually said that you ended up studying persuasion because you always felt like you were a pushover growing up. So can you tell us about the days before you were the godfather of influence and what first sparked your interest in this field? Yeah, even before I went to university, I was always a pushover for the appeals of various sales operators or fundraisers who would come to my door and I would find myself in unwanted possession of these things. And it occurred to me that there must be something else then besides the merits of the offer that got me to say yes.

2:34It must be a set of psychological factors involved in the way those merits were presented to me that got my ascent. And I always thought, well, that was intriguing. That's truly an intriguing thing. And I kept that at the back of my mind when I went on to school. And so you actually studied animal behavior in school, and then you ended up switching gears midway. What happened there? Share that story. Yeah, I was studying animal behavior because my advisor at the time was an animal behaviorist, and I was working in his lab and had never taken a class in social psychology. But I had a mad crush on a girlfriend I had at that time, and she was taking a social psychology course.

3:23And there happened to be an empty seat next to her. And I filled that seat. And by the end of the semester, I was much more attracted to human behavior than to animal behavior. And so with that in mind, I decided to go ahead and apply to social psychology programs, especially those that focused on my lifelong interest in the psychology of influence. It's so funny how sometimes these little decisions in life, they lead us to such big decisions in our life and set off a whole career trajectory. Like, had you not taken that class, you may not have realized how much it interested you. And if there hadn't been an empty seat next to my girlfriend at the time, you and I wouldn't be talking.

4:13I would be having a very different conversation with somebody else, if anybody at all. So you're right about serendipity. I think it's a greatly under-recognized factor in the attainment of various people who have made a name in their particular arena. 100%. So let's get into the meat and potatoes of this interview, because I feel like I have so many questions for you. And I you are like the person to talk to you about influence. So let's get some foundational things out of the way first. So a lot of people think that persuasion is like mind tricks or manipulation. But it's very important in business to understand how to influence and persuade people because at the end of the day, businesses need to be able to persuade their customers to buy so that they can can stay in business.

5:05So I'd love to understand your opinion on the ethics of persuasion, especially when it comes to utilizing those tactics in business. Ethics, that's crucial. You've put your finger on a major concern of mine since I began to study the influence process, because as we'll see, these principles give us dynamite. But you can use dynamite for good or ill. You can use dynamite to help build a bridge or you can use it to blow up a bridge. And the key is to build bridges with those principles so you have long-term enduring relationships with the people that you're influencing. So they want to continue to do business with you on into the future.

5:51And so one more foundational question, and then we'll move on to your seven universal principles of influence. I feel like this concept of mental shortcuts is really important. And I think we'll circle back to it a few times in this interview. So when making a decision, it would make sense that humans would consider all the factors in order to make a good decision, but it's actually not the case in reality. We have very overloaded lives. We've got information overload, and we often need shortcuts to guide our decision-making. Can you talk to us about why humans require mental shortcuts and some of the pros and cons behind that?

6:27We live in the most information-overloaded, stimulus-saturated environment that has ever existed on our planet. We have so much information, so many options, so many challenges, so many choices that we couldn't stop and consider fully each of them and be able to go on with our everyday interactions with people. So we need shortcuts to be able to signal a good choice on the basis of one or another highly predictive feature of that situation that normally steers us correctly. Let's say the fact that there's genuine authority opinion that favors the particular position that we have. If we can bring that to the surface early on in our presentation, look at these testimonials from people who are legitimately constituted experts, our audience members will say, oh, well, that's enough.

7:31I don't need to consider this myself. The authorities have said this is the right thing. I can go on, make that decision, and deal with all the other decisions that I have to make in my information overloaded day. Yeah. And what are some of the things that can go wrong with mental shortcuts? So because they are shortcuts, sometimes there are profiteers that lie along the paths of those shortcuts who try to trick us into moving in their direction by giving us one of those principles when it doesn't really exist naturally in the situation. They counterfeit it or they fabricate it there. They say that they have authority when they truly don't have authority in the situation.

8:19They might dress in a way that connotes authority or might have a particular kind of diction, or they might tell us that they have certain kinds of degrees and diplomas that they don't really have, and they trick us into using that shortcut. That's the thing we have to watch out for. And we have to penalize those people who do that. Yeah. So hopefully in this interview, you guys are going to learn how to defend yourself against those types of things because you're going to understand some of the tactics that you can use to persuade people and that people are going to use to try to persuade you.

8:54So it's this like whole game that we've got to play in business. So let's move on to your seven principles. You have the seven principles of persuasion that we can all use. The first three principles that I kind of bundled together, it's all about relationships, and that would be reciprocity, liking, and unity. So this idea of reciprocity, and I think I'm going to spend a lot of time here because I think it's really eye-opening and there's a lot of nuggets to uncover with this first principle. This rule of reciprocity states that we should try to repay in kind what another person has provided to us.

9:28So can you help us understand the power of reciprocity and how it's ingrained in us as humans to always pay our debts? Yes. Well, it exists in every human culture. There's not a single society, human society on earth, that fails to train its members from childhood in this rule. You must not take without giving in return. If I remember your birthday with a card, you should remember mine with a card. If I do you a favor, you owe me a favor. And in the realm of reciprocity and influence, people say yes to those they owe. If you don't give back to those you owe, you are ostracized from the society.

10:15People don't want to interact with you. They don't want to deal with you. You're considered a freeloader or an ingrate or a taker or a moocher. Nobody wants those labels. So people will feel obligated to give back after they have received. The implication for business is we have to go first. We have to give benefits, advantages, information that will enhance somebody else's outcomes who will then feel grateful to us and obligated to enhance our outcomes. There was a lovely little study done in certain McDonald's franchises. One week, every family that came in to the location, all the children of each family were given a balloon.

11:07Half of them were given the balloon as they left as a nice thank you for patronizing the McDonald's location. The other half were given a balloon when they entered, and their parents bought 25 % more food because the kids got something first, not after, first. And there was an interesting feature in that, and that is in the 25 % increase in purchase, there was a 20 % increase in purchase of coffee. So the children weren't getting the coffee. The parents were. But if you do my child a favor, you've done a favor for me. And I'm going to buy more of your offerings. Yeah. So if you're new to a situation in business and you go into a room with people you haven't known before and you're going to try to do business with them, you shouldn't look around the room and ask yourself, who can most help me here?

12:13The question should be, whom can I most help here? And once you've done that, that person is your advocate. That person is your supporter. That person is standing on the balls of his or her feet waiting to get the chance to help you in return. Yeah, I love this. I want to stick on this golden rule, right? You must not take without giving in return. That is so important. It guides so many of our actions as humans. And in business, there's so many examples of this, like giving free samples at a grocery store or having a charity foundation sending you like stickers and asking for a donation, or even sometimes they'll send a dollar and they'll be like, and then you feel so indebted that you have to reciprocate.

13:00So what are some other examples in business that you can think of that utilize this reciprocation tactic? Well, where people offer online free information, you might want to help you with your business. You can send a white paper, you can send a study, you can send an analysis or a podcast link to something that would be relevant. And once that has occurred, people feel a sense of obligation to give back to you for what you have provided them. And it's especially the case if you can, let's say you get something that comes across your desk that's a new study that just appeared. It's not even published yet.

13:46And you have a colleague who you want to warm up to you. You want this colleague to feel more at one with you and more partnership. And so go to that person with that new study and say, I just got this today. Nobody else has this information. It's not even published yet. but I'd like to give it to you to make sure that you can profit from. That person is going to feel obligated and grateful to you for giving that particular thing, especially if it's something that nobody else has, not even published yet. By the way, you know that McDonald's study that I told you about with giving balloons as people leave or as they enter, not even published yet.

14:33I love that. It's such a great example. And it's really important to note that you have to give first. That's what reciprocation is all about. It's giving first. And I'm the CEO of a social media agency, and I run a lot of influencer accounts. And it's the same principle. You've got to educate if you want to build a community that trusts you and wants to actually buy from you. You've got to give first. And often you're giving your best stuff away for free. That's usually the way that you do it, because that's what's really going to get people hooked and feel like they need to give something back.

15:02because you've really added value to their lives. Right. And the criticism is if you give away your best stuff or even some of your highly effective stuff, well, why do they need you? That's wrongheaded. Here's why they need you. You're a partner who has valuable information and resources to provide. They want to continue to work with such a person. Yeah, 100 percent. So let's talk about how to do this correctly, because you say that we shouldn't say things like, oh, it's no big deal or don't worry about it when we do a favor. Why is it important to make sure that we don't downplay our favors?

15:41You know, that's really a good question because so many times in my history, I've done a big favor for somebody beyond the call of duty. I really went out of my way to do it. And then that person thanks me genuinely and with real integrity in the way that they're saying, I really appreciate what you did for me. And I used to hear myself say, oh, don't think anything of it. No big deal. Just part of the job. Would have done it for anybody. And it wasn't even true. And I realized I had just slapped out of the window with the side of my hand one of the most powerful influences that exist in human culture by diminishing or dismissing what I did.

16:31So now, here's what I advise to people who find themselves in that position. Never wave your hand and say, oh, don't think anything about it. No problem. Don't say that. I hear that all the time. Here's what you say. If it's somebody inside your organization, you say, of course, I was glad to do so. I was glad to help. It's what we do for one another here. You put that person on record, of course. This is what we do for one another. So when you need something from that person, that individual is ready to give it. It's what we do here. Now, if it's for somebody outside of the organization, I would say something slightly different.

17:15Once again, I would say, well, I'm glad to have the chance to help. I know that if the situation were ever reversed, you'd do the same for me. You'd do the same for me. See, again, you put the person on record. This wasn't just something that you were owed. No, there's an exchange here. We give to one another. And oh, and please don't say, if the situation had been reversed, I know you would have done the same for me. That's in the past. That will never appear again. You say, if it were to occur, I know you'd do the same for me. So again, in the future, that person has been primed to be ready to give to you on the basis of what you have honestly and earnestly done for them.

18:09Yeah, that is just such a good point. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.

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22:18A lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs or business owners, and they're having a lot of problems retaining their employees with the great resignation and quiet quitting and all this stuff going on. And I read in your book that you can actually use reciprocity to retain employees. And you've got a great story about how an employee stayed longer at his job because of the kindness of his boss. So do you recall that story? Can you share with us how we can use that tactic to help retainer employees? Yeah. In my book, I have something called reader's reports. People who've read an earlier edition of the book, Influence, I invite them to write into me and give me examples of a time when they experienced one or another of these principles they used effectively, was used on them effectively, or they just observed it being used effectively.

23:09And this one woman wrote about her boss, who was such a kind individual, he would remember her birthdays, he would remember the birthdays of her children and give them little gifts or cards of one sort or another. And she was so taken by this that she said, I'm at the top of my employment category right now. I can't move up any farther, but I'm not going to leave my boss until he's in a position to retire in a couple of years because he's been so good to me, I can't possibly leave him. Now, I just saw a study that provided data to support this idea. It was a study done in Belgium where researchers looked at a manager who gave their employees information about how they can submit data to be able to move around within the company, actually leave their department.

24:15Not only didn't they leave, these people became more productive and more willing to take on voluntary safety activities that had been a problem in the past. And when the researchers asked these employees why, they said, I owed it to my boss for providing me with this kind of information that would help me in the future. So it's kind of like, if I care about you, you're going to care about me. So show care to your employees. They'll show care back and want to stay with you longer. That's exactly right. The rule for reciprocity works along all behavioral dimensions, including, by the way, if you do somebody wrong, they stand ready to do you wrong.

25:04Oh, I want to learn more about that. Don't do it. Be ethical. Be good. Be kind. Be helpful. And that's what flows back rather than any kind of coercion or trickery or any kind of deceit. Yeah, totally. So let's go one more layer deep on reciprocity and then we'll move on. Let's talk about the rejection then retreat method and why it's beneficial to get people to say no to a large request and then they can make a concession to the real request that you wanted. I don't think it's beneficial to start out with something that you want people to say no to, but if you go into a situation with different alternatives you can give to people, begin with the one at the top, the one that will provide the most benefit to all concerned, even though it might be the more expensive one.

25:54Because if they say, oh, well, that's great, but I can't afford that, then you get to retreat to the next most beneficial option. And in that retreat, people feel a need to reciprocate and retreat from their position of no. This happened to me. I remember I was walking down a city street and was approached by a Boy Boy Scout. He wanted me to buy tickets to the Boy Scout circus that was going to be held that weekend. Five dollars a piece. This is a while ago. And I said, no, I to be honest, I didn't want to spend my weekend with the Boy Scouts. He said, oh, well, if you can't do that, would you buy a couple of our chocolate bars here?

26:39They're only one dollar a piece. And I bought a couple of his chocolate bars and immediately recognized that something important had happened because I don't like chocolate bars, but I like dollars. And I was standing there with two of his chocolate bars and he was walking away with two of my dollars because he retreated from an initial request. So in any situation you go into, have more than one option ahead of time prepared. Begin with the one that's going to be best for all concerned. If that one is a no, then retreat to the next one and you get a reciprocal retreat in turn. And it's important to make sure that you ask one thing and let them say no, and then you go in with a second ask.