From hair loss to personal loss - an intimate chat with Anabel Kingsley

0:02Hi, I'm Sophie and this is Age Well with Dr Sophie Shotter, a space devoted to all things health, wellness and longevity. Because for me, ageing well is about looking and feeling like the best possible version of ourselves, inside as well as out. So together with my producer Fee, I'll be deep diving into the latest research, sifting fact from fiction. I'll also be talking to all kinds of trusted experts tapping into their knowledge, along with bringing you conversations from a range of interesting women and men, finding out how they age well. So, this is my show. Welcome along. And as always, thank you so much for listening.

0:46Annabelle, 10 years ago, you took the helm of your father's clinic and brand after he very sadly passed away. We are, of course, talking about the legendary Philip Kingsley. But what people may not realise is that you started your career at the company back in 2005. You diligently worked across multiple departments. And a year before your dad passed, you qualified as a trichologist and were already making a name for yourself. What I'd love to know, though, is how hard was it to suddenly pivot and take over this vast empire on both a professional and a personal level? For example, did you find it hard to move into a leadership role?

1:20Did you have any pushback? Had you already been discussing with your dad the ways in which you might change or evolve the brand? Or did you end up making lots of decisions in real time? That's such a good question. It's not an easy one to answer. I've been ingrained in the business pretty much since birth. So I grew up above our London trichological clinic on Green Street in Mayfair. So there's never really been a disconnect between me and the company. So it's always moving into it has always been quite a seamless experience. I worked very closely with my father. He was everything to me and he passed away very suddenly.

2:01And it wasn't something that we were expecting. So we hadn't had conversations prior to this on what would happen if he passed away and how what it would look like if I were to move into more of a leadership role or to try and fill his very incredibly big shoes. So it was a shock and it was it was difficult both personally and professionally. I was in a time of immense grief. But equally, I had a company of people, of employees who needed me as well. So I had to put aside, I had to, I guess, compartmentalize some of the grief that I was feeling to get involved in the business and to make sure everything was moving along as it should.

2:57so I had such an incredible support network around me so I work very closely with my mother Joan and my sister Catherine she's a member of the board so us three women we really banded together to give us support and also many of the people who work in the clinic I've known them since I was a baby and they were incredibly supportive they were also grieving so everyone really lifted each other up during this time. And luckily, because I have been in this business in some capacity since I was able to understand words, I already knew a lot about how the business was run and I knew its intricacies.

3:41So in that way, I wouldn't say that that was difficult. It was just more the expectations and making sure that my father's vision was upheld after he passed away. So you lead the clinics in both London and New York. You're the brand's president as well as consultant trichologist. You're also seen as a bit of a pioneer in trichology. We've talked about hair loss a fair bit on the show and we know you have your own personal experience of this. In terms, though, of treatments and technologies, on the show, we've previously talked about everything from red light, laser, LED, PRP, stem cell therapy.

4:21But we wondered what was exciting you the most when it comes to hair loss, even if it's something that shows promise that hasn't yet officially been launched onto the market? I think the longevity concept is really exciting me. It's something it's something we've talked about in the clinic since the beginning of time, pretty much. Longevity was my father followed this longevity concept we do in our clinic long before it was even a recognized term. So looking at all the elements that can impact hair growth, hair health, like scalp health, nutrition, hormones, overall wellness, and also hairstyling routine.

5:05So it's exciting that other people are realizing this. And it means that how we talk about hair care, it's better understood by the consumer now. But I suppose in terms of new and exciting innovations, I think the thing that I'm looking forward to the most is really understanding actually what causes female pattern hair loss. because up until this point most research has been dedicated towards understanding male pattern hair loss and up until about two to three years ago maybe a bit longer than that we've lumped both male and female pattern hair loss under the term androgenic or androgenetic alopecia and now we don't call female pattern hair loss uh androgenic alopecia anymore we call it female pattern hair loss because the role of androgens, it's not clear.

6:04And what we're learning is androgens aren't having an impact on every woman's hair growth cycle in the same way. For some women, they might play a role. For some women, they might not play a role. So I think in order for me to really get excited about new innovations, first has to come that true understanding of the mechanisms that we're actually dealing with. Yeah, what's behind it. Yeah, thank you. And what's your viewpoint on supplements? For example, I recommend Viviscal Professional quite a lot, which is a blend of a marine protein and other nutrients. But where do you stand on supplements?

6:45And I'd also love to know what you think about genetic testing. So we've had quite a bit of experience with the Trichotesting Clinic, which is this quite advanced DNA test, which can offer an explanation of someone's genetic characteristics and how they might relate to hair loss. But obviously genetics are just one part of a much bigger picture. And we also often run blood tests to check for micronutrient deficiencies. But what in your opinion is the latest on supplements and where do you stand on genetic testing? So I think supplements can be a very important part of someone's hair care routine, but they have to be taken mindfully and based on blood tests.

7:28I think we're in a space where people are now over supplementing. And it's really common that a client will come into my clinic and they will bring anywhere from five to 15 supplements with them, put them, show them to me and say, well, what else can I be taking? My hair is still falling out. Some types of hair loss, that they're not due to nutritional inadequacies like female pattern hair loss. And some are only in part due to nutritional inadequacies. So if that's the case, taking a supplement isn't going to fix the issue. And it's pointless just grabbing any old supplement off the shelf if you don't know what you need.

8:11So I do recommend having a blood test and then basing your intake on that. I see people over supplement with vitamin A, with selenium, those things can actually cause hair loss. No one really needs a biotin supplement. A deficiency is so rare. The most common deficiencies we see in clinic that are contributing to hair loss are iron and ferritin, which is a protein that stores iron deficiency, vitamin B12 deficiency, vitamin D deficiency, and also sometimes zinc. But again, not everyone will have all of those deficiencies. So some of my clients, they may only need to take iron and zinc. Others might only need to take iron and B12 and someone might only need to take zinc.

8:56So basically, I think they can be good provided you are taking exactly what you need. great answer um i read and i don't really know what these next two things are so i might ask you for an explanation as well but i read an interview where you said to avoid scalp derma rollers and instead opt for derma stamping what's derma stamping and and yeah can you give a little explaining of both of these two things yeah so derma stamping and derma rolling i guess they fall under the umbrella term of micro needling so it's using tiny needles to create small wounds on the scalp that's thought to stimulate hair growth.

9:37There is some good evidence that microneedling can be helpful, but I don't recommend derma rolling because it's very hard to keep the devices sterile. You run the risk, a very high risk, of going over the same area of scalp again and again, which can traumatize scalp tissue it's very hard to control the needle depth and they can also break your hair they're like little grass cutters so some people they say look at all this new growth and it's actually it's they've broken all the hair off from their roots if someone wants to use microneedling we don't recommend it if a client asks in clinic should I use microneedling I wouldn't push them to do it but if they want to I would recommend using a derma stamp so that's a stamp and generally it's between 0.3 to 0.5 millimeters in depth not to do it more than once to twice a week and buy a really good quality device and the needles need to be sharp they do blood over time you have to make sure you're sterilizing them you have to make sure you're cleaning your scalp prior there's quite a lot that can go wrong so if someone the best thing to do would actually be to go to a dermatologist to have it done but I do understand it can it's a bit unrealistic to go twice a week to have it done every week and then pay for it it's expensive so it's one of those situations where I wouldn't necessarily recommend someone does it at home because I just think there's too much room for error.

11:22But if you must, I'd follow those tips. Sophie, what are your thoughts? Because I feel like this must be something that you're asked all the time. I completely agree with you. I think anything home use is hard enough to manage and do well. But why someone? I think those rollers are brutal enough in professional hands. and I really worry how some people just think more is more and go hell for leather on their skin, remembering the scalps and extension of the skin and can cause a lot more harm than good. We'd also love to know, in fact, I'm going to give you a bit of preamble to this question because my daughter, who's now 20, has loved Philip Kingsley products since she was like 17 and with her part-time job, she would save up to buy her Philip Kingsley shampoos and conditioners, which I think is really lovely considering a little part-time job.

12:19So there we go. So with that in mind, we'd love to know what your current hair care routine is, including the products and the kit that you use. And speaking of the brand, can you talk us through your, I guess, the top three Philip Kingsley bestsellers? Because we could talk about the entire brand, but if we just stick to bestsellers, that would be amazing. Okay. Do you have all day? Because I have quite a comprehensive hair and scalp care routine. I go harder on my scalp than I do my facial skin, although that's changing a bit now that I am aging or becoming older. So I try to mirror what most people do to their face on my scalp.

13:01So every morning and evening, I use different topicals on my scalp to help balance my scalp barrier and also to optimize my growth, my antigen to shedding telogen ratio. So in the morning, I apply our density preserving scalp drops, and these have peptides and pyroctinolamine in them. And then before bed, I use our clinic anti-shedding drops, which have sandalore and melatonin and edelweiss extract in them. And I massage them in before going to bed. I know this isn't realistic for everyone, but it works very well for me. and I have really seen an improvement in the density of my hair and in terms of how much I'm shedding on a daily basis and I started doing this about a year and a half ago.

14:02I shampoo pretty I do shampoo every day I have fine hair it gets greasy quickly your scalp is simply an extension of the skin on your forehead and particularly if you live in a smoggy city like London you want to be cleansing away that grime on a daily basis. I use pre-shampoo deep conditioning treatments once to twice a week so that's our elasticizer. This helps to strengthen my hair. I highlight it. It's down to my waist at the moment. It reduces breakage and then another time a week I will use a bond repair treatment and from our range that's our bond builder pre-shampoo restructuring treatment.

14:47I oil my hair every few nights before going to bed. So I'll apply oil not to my scalp. I do not recommend oiling the scalp to my mid-lengths and ends, working it in with my fingertips. And then I braid my hair, so into two plates. And that protects my hair from tangling when I sleep. And the oil sort of soaks in overnight. And when I take the braids out, I'm left with these lovely waves in the morning and then that prevents me from having to reach for heated styling tools to make my hair look nice. I'm having a note on that tip. Thank you. I mean, there's and I'm just really gentle with my hair at every touch point because even though the follicle is a very active and reactive mini organ, Once the hair emerges from the scalp, it is a biologically inactive tissue, so it's dead.

15:45So it doesn't regenerate itself. So once it's sprouted from your scalp, you really want to be as gentle with it as possible because otherwise its hair, its condition will deteriorate over time. So gentle hair brushing, using a good quality hairbrush. I don't brush my scalp. Brushing does not stimulate the scalp and it's very likely to damage your hair if you overdo it. Detangling from my ends up and always using a detangling conditioning spray. I think it's really important to realize it's not just the products you use, it's the method of how you're using them and also how you're looking after your hair on a daily basis because even if you're using the best heat protections the best conditioners if you're using a scratchy hairbrush or you're blasting your hair with high heat um or you're detangling incorrectly your hair is going to to still suffer the consequences these are things that i had never ever thought about before and have never heard said so in fact these are epic tips thank you can i throw in one more quick question because i know you haven't answered the question about the products but while we're on styling and stuff what do you think about the dyson air straight because that's a bit better isn't it because it's using is not quite it's not clamping onto the air and being as harmful is this the wet to straight one or is yeah yeah yeah i so i do trust dyson i do trust dyson i i love their dryers because one your hair can't get sucked into the base and you can also blow dry your hair on a lower heat setting because it has such a high power um so but i also know that applying high heat to wet hair can cause bubble hair so that's if you've ever heard of this so it's when water within your hair shaft basically it evaporates and expands and it bursts out through that the cuticle the outer part of your hair and it causes irreparable damage so I trust that Dyson knows this um but personally I wouldn't because I've actually used wet to straight straighteners when they were first brought out about 15 years ago and I broke off half my hair um so they're probably fine but I I wouldn't use that after the trauma I've had from from from them in the past yeah yeah yeah gosh interesting thank you okay so Philip Kingsley the range, the actual, the products.

18:25As I said, my daughters love them since she was a teen. So what are the top sellers? Elasticizer. So that's our pre-champoo deep conditioning treatment. My father originally formulated it for Audrey Hepburn. She had quite fine hair, a lot of it. But what they were doing is they were using really heavy post-champoo conditioners to repair it because it was breaking from all the damage that was being done to it on set. So Audrey went to my father and said, do you have a product that is going to strengthen my hair, make it shiny, but it's not going to weigh it down? And he said, no, but give me some time.

19:08So he went into his laboratory and he made a pre-shampoo deep conditioning treatment. So it's great because it works for all hair textures, but it won't weigh even the finest of hair down because it's left on your hair for long enough for the ingredients to adhere to strands and to penetrate but then any heavy excess residue is then shampooed away and I absolutely love it I think it's it's a must especially if you heat style or chemically process your hair. Our Flaky Itchy Scalp Shampoo I absolutely love and I use it periodically when I get bouts of dandruff it's It contains pyrocynolamine, which is a really effective antifungal ingredient, which is gentle on the hair.

19:58And I think that's so important because a lot of anti-dandruff ingredients, they do clear dandruff, but they can leave your hair feeling quite dry and tangled. They also don't tend to smell very nice and smells of fresh green apples, which is amazing. So if you have dandruff, this is a product I'd really recommend. And we have two types. We have one for fine to medium textured hair and one for people with textured hair or curly hair coils. The third, so my favorite third product is our Lipid Shield oil. This is the product I work into my hair overnight before I sleep. Your hair, when it's healthy, is coated in something called the 18-MeA lipid layer.

20:51And it's a layer of fatty acids that's bonded to your hair and it's removed by things like UV rays and high heat chemical processing. And when you lose this layer, your hair becomes less shiny, it becomes more brittle, it increases your hair's porosity. and our lipid shield contains 18 MEA derivatives so it temporarily replaces lost lipids on your hair shaft and it also penetrates and the difference in people's, the condition of people's hair and the shine is really incredible once you start using it regularly. I have to say the elasticiser is one so many of my patients know and love as well. um more broadly what's your approach to wellness and longevity what for example does a typical day look like for you in terms of how you wake up and what your habits and protocols are do you have a house full of infrared lights and vibration plates for example do you use wearables are there any non-negotiables whether that's a certain exercise regime or the way you approach food and nutrition?

22:02So I am probably the worst person to ask this question because my longevity routine it has it has something to be desired so um I I have two young boys they're age three and five so my mornings um look uh like well my boys come running into my bed at about 4 a.m and I'm scrambling to get them downstairs for breakfast at about seven. So I wouldn't, my mornings aren't slow and relaxed. They're quite hectic. Although, you know, it is really lovely as well. I think for everyone, it's about finding a healthy wellness routine that is doable for you I definitely do have to work on mine and if you have any tips Sophie I'm I'm more than open to hearing hearing them but um I I always eat breakfast so no matter how rushed I am I will sit down and have breakfast because I know after a night's fast my body is in need of energy my brain every single cell in my body including your hair so breakfast is actually the most important meal of the day for your hair as hair isn't an essential tissue it's the last part of you to receive nutrients you intake and the first part of you to be withheld from so if you skip breakfast it's really left on a back foot because even then if you have lunch your essential cells are so hungry that your hair still isn't going to receive nutrients or as many nutrients as it needs at that point so if i know i am going to have a really hectic morning which is most mornings i'll do overnight oats in the fridge so that I can take them out and eat them when I get up and not left hungry.

23:56I try to manage my stress levels as best I can. Again, I'm not, this is really difficult with two really young children. And I have a very, very hectic work schedule and I love my work and I just can't switch off. So I try and read, I try and do some breath work because doesn't require that much time or effort. You can do it anywhere. You can do it anywhere. And in terms of wearables, no, I personally don't. I have an LED face mask at home that I haven't taken out of the box yet.

24:40Maybe I'll do that tonight. I do have an on-point skincare routine And this is thanks to you, Sophie, and also to my dermatologist in New York, Dr. Ellen Jenner. So I use a retinol every single night. So she compounds something called skin brightening cream. So I've been doing this every night for a couple of years. That's made a huge difference. I wear sunblock every day and I cleanse my face twice a day. so that's sort of the um that's the uh the limit of my my skincare but I think it's it must be better than it used to be yeah well you've kind of pre-entered my next question I was going to ask you about skincare but you've answered that one but what about um I guess in clinic treatments and treatments are you happy to share um yeah um what you may or may not do yeah I I have tried um I've tried Botox a few times and I quite I quite like the results but other than that I've looked into micro needling and this is something that I might do not myself I would not do it myself at a dermatologist's office but I'm quite I am quite a paranoid person so I tend to hold off on doing any invasive treatments just because I know personally that I'm going I'm going to be up at night thinking about all the things that could have gone wrong but that's just me I've seen people who've had many different types of injectables with with amazing results provided they go to someone who who knows what they're doing and is is board certified.

26:30What about supplements? I know earlier in the episode you talked about how many people are over supplementing which I completely agree with but what's in your cabinet if anything including anything like protein powders or collagen? So I take a vitamin D supplement always and I take a higher dose in winter. For me I take 2 ,000 international units a day. That might not be for everyone, but it works for me. Vitamin D deficiency is so common and it's actually a really common cause of hair loss as well. I base all of my supplements on blood tests. So I have ulcerative colitis, which means my iron and my ferritin, which is a stored iron, they deplete quite quickly and I'm not able to take iron supplements.

27:18So personally, and under the care of a physician, I have iron infusions periodically when my levels start to dip. Again, this is something that really has to be done under strict medical supervision and only if you need it. But it's been really game changing in terms of my energy levels and also the health of my hair. I take our protein supplements. So we have something called amino acid protein booster in the Philip Kingsley range. This contains all essential amino acids. So those are proteins your body cannot make on its own. Hardly anyone eats enough protein for the health of their hair. And with a hectic schedule and no one's really able to eat perfectly all the time and your hair sort of needs a perfect diet because it is such a needy but non-essential tissue.

28:13So I do think everyone would benefit from taking a protein supplement. I personally don't take collagen. I don't think there's enough evidence behind it, at least for your hair. Maybe I'll start taking it for skin because I am starting to notice some more laxity in my facial skin. And I'll take vitamin B12 and zinc if I've had something like the flu. But otherwise, I'm quite minimal in my supplements and I will just base them on uh on blood tests let's move on to our quick fire round of questions what are three things you can't live without so not counting humans pets or caffeine um three things that I can't live without my elasticizer pre-shampoo deep conditioning treatment because my hair just um would not survive without it so when I'm feeling stressed I find listening to classical music can really help calm me down.

29:15So having my Spotify connected is really important to me. Thirdly would be really good bedsheets because getting a good night's sleep is so important. And if they're overly hot or they're not comfortable, that can have a real impact on how I'm sleeping. And I feel like this can be said for a lot of people as well as having a really relaxing and comfortable bedroom environment to help you get the best sleep that you can. Love that answer. What is your current TV and or podcast obsession? I just finished binge watching Bridgerton. oh nice I think for me because my work is so um it's very demanding um and requires a lot of thinking on my feet I personally turn to television shows that offer escapism um so I love Bridgerton um I also recently re-watched Stranger Things and I haven't yet watched the last episode yet because I'm saving that.

30:31I can't quite bring myself to come to the realization that that series is truly over. If you made a documentary, what would it be about? For me, it would be about the immense psychological impact that hair loss can have on women and how common it is. Even though it's getting better, I don't think hair loss in women is widely spoken enough about um so i want to focus on that and i'd also want to to highlight how um women's health can have such a profound impact on women's hair as well because everything's interwoven with each other and i think it would be really helpful for for women of all ages to watch a documentary about that yeah having lost 70 of my hair during chemo I would be watching that because it wasn't a shock but it was a surprise at how much it impacted hair loss people often say that it's cosmetic or they apologize for being vain but hair loss it can have such a profound impact on how we feel about ourselves on our sense of identity even our physiology I I mean, there have been studies that show when you're happy with your hair, that they measure someone's heart rate and pupil dilation and how it can really impact you in a positive way when your hair looks good.

32:07And equally, it could be said that when your hair isn't looking good or you're losing your hair, the devastation you can feel and the stress that it creates can be so great that it really impacts your day to day life. Completely, completely. And also losing eyelashes and eyebrows as well, which was, I hadn't even thought of that, which was devastating for not for vanity, but for all of the reasons you said. So, yes, Sai, thank you. What's a song you can listen to on repeat? Beach Boys' God Only Knows. Aw, classic. What's your favourite independently owned shop, whether bricks and mortar or online?

32:52Currently, it's Hide and Hair. What do they do? So they're British owned that they do interiors, so sheepskin. So it's sustainably sourced sheepskin rugs and hot water bottles and what are they called? And beanbags is beautiful and they're such good quality and I really like to support other British brands. What's one thing that people don't know about you?

33:25I'm a trained singer and I write music. so I um yeah so my gift my musicality runs on my mother's side of the family so my mom's a psychotherapist now but she used to be a jazz singer and she sang jazz in jazz clubs in New York my cousin whose lawyer is also an opera singer my grandmother was a singer and she used to sing professionally at weddings um so I can sing and I can also write music and I write music and lyrics um and when I was um Annabelle you can sing is an understatement you have a stunning voice thank you thank you are you on Spotify no no no I did I did actually I did record an album um in my late teens um with just for fun and I um I did a music video as well uh someone found my music on on my space if you remember my space and they asked if they could use it in um in a music video they were doing so i i like i got involved in that and that was quite fun but i guess that's that's what people don't know about me and my gift to my husband on our wedding day was um i wrote a song for him and i performed it at our at our wedding gorgeous that's gorgeous amazing besides family and friends tell us about a woman you admire

34:59um that it's really it's really difficult because I admire my mother so much and we um she's you know one of my closest friends and also we work very closely together um so So I would say Nikki Kennard, the founder of Space NK, and she is also on our board now. And she's just so impressive, so smart. What she created and was able to build is incredible. And she's also a really, really nice person. So she's the whole package. And I really admire her. what is your signature scent and you can have more than one if you want so this is this is a bit of a weird answer I don't wear fragrance my hair products are my fragrance I for some reason I love fragrances on other people but I can't stand them on myself so so I I don't know there's probably some you know if I google that it would probably tell me all sorts of stuff about my personality so maybe I'll do that after this podcast but my hair products are are my scent and so like how my product smell is really important and that's a good job that I'm allowed to to choose a lot of the fragrances in our formulations um but that's my answer I don't wear fragrance yeah and because my daughter wears Philip Kingsley I can confirm that the products do smell gorgeous unlike fragrance so that's a great answer yeah what would we never guess about you from your CV?

36:41Oh, um, I have a cordon bleu degree. Um, multi-talented. Um, so yes, I love to, to bake. Um, and that you would not find that on my CV. Although I would say that formulating products can, is quite similar to baking in many ways. Um, but yes, that that's something most people don't guess about me until they until they taste my chocolate souffle finally I loved reading a beautiful get the gloss article you wrote two years ago after your dad's death titled 14 lessons from my father my mentor and champion and one of my favorites was the last one which was all about his approach to women um which feels especially relevant given we're recording this the day after international women's day and I'm going to read it directly My dad grew up in the 1930s, an era when women were treated appallingly.

37:39However, despite his Mad Men era upbringing, my dad had great respect for women. He fully encouraged my sister and me to be successful career women and to follow our dreams. He supported my mother when she decided to go back to university at the age of 45. Two of our MDs have been female and most of my colleagues are as well. I know that not every work environment is like ours and that I have been very fortunate. However, my dad showed me how women and men should be treated in and outside of the workplace. He has also taught me how I should demand to be treated by the man in my life. I think that given some of the news stories at the moment, it just feels really timely to remember this.

38:16I also loved the article's recap of his achievements. He was born in London's East End to a poor family, but came to be regarded as one of the world's leading experts on hair and scalp health. He also coined the phrase a bad hair day. he developed the world's first pre-shampoo conditioner which is the elasticizer that you mentioned for Audrey Hepburn he introduced the concept of scalp masks scalp toners and hair treatments and was the first to link hair health with nutrition and well-being he also funded research on female hair loss at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York and developed products for those undergoing chemo and radiotherapy and donated to the breast cancer charity look good feel better as well as the Royal Marsden Hospital for Cancer Research so I mean there's so much incredible um incredible achievement and anecdote there so I guess as a final question what's your favorite memory of your dad oh that is such a it's such a difficult question to answer because I have I have so many um incredible memories of him I think the thing I miss the most is how I felt when I was around him.

39:27So the memory of how being with him made me feel, if that makes sense, because I can't choose just one instance. We were so close. We saw each other apps pretty much every day. Also because we worked together, we spoke on the phone at least twice a day. He was usually the first, I'd pick up the phone in the morning and call him. Our relationship sort of mirrored that really close mother-daughter relationship that you'll often hear about. So yes, that's what I'd say is it's just the memory of the joy that I had when I was with him um that's my favorite that's my favorite memory of him um and I wish that he'd been there you know when I got married and also when my my children were born I those are the biggest memories that I'm missing beautiful thank you Annabelle for sharing so openly and also at the end they're so vulnerably um for all of you listening follow Annabelle on socials at Annabelle with just one L, so A-N-A-B-E-L underscore Kingsley.