353 - 9/11 - 25th Remembrance - Scott McCartney, Doug Parker, Beverley Bass

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1:00Welcome to Airlines Confidential. I'm Scott McCartney, welcoming you to a very special edition of the podcast. In every life, there are a few defining moments, joyous celebrations, life-changing decisions, impactful news events. We hope, we pray that the moments of sorrow and tragedy are few, but they are not to be forgotten. And today we remember one of those moments, One of those events, the terrorist attacks of the morning of September 11th, 2001, 25 years ago this week. For people in aviation, 9-11 carries enormous weight beyond the thousands of lives lost, beyond the profound changes in air travel, beyond the jobs eliminated and pay cuts imposed.

1:47The business we love, the adventure we treasure, was turned into a weapon of mass destruction. The attack was personal for those in the airline business who lived through it. It changed my life, and I wasn't even working for an airline. And Doug Parker, I know it changed your life. You were a brand new CEO of a struggling airline, America West, and you found yourself on the verge of shutdown. You saved the airline, you saved thousands of jobs, turned America West into U.S. Airways and then into America Airlines, changing aviation history. And so for the 25th anniversary of September 11th, it is, I think, a fitting tribute to have you with us this week.

2:28Welcome back, Doug. Oh, thanks, God. That's very nice. There's no doubt, you know, any of us that were in the business on 9-11 were changed by that day and, you know, hopefully changed forever. I mean, the tragedy is impossible to forget and never can be forgotten. And we always need to, you know, as we will this week, honor those we lost. But, I mean, I'll tell you every time I think about that time, and I always come back to positive thoughts, really, about how our industry responded. And just a great reminder of what a great industry this is. I mean, first and foremost, the way our people responded, the way aviation professionals responded.

3:16You know, I was indeed working in a little airline called America West in Phoenix. I had been CEO for all of 10 days on 9-11. And, you know, and then suddenly, you know, this happens. And so, you know, it was four or five days. There were no one flying. You know, there weren't flights allowed. So we got to where we're going to restore flights. And what I recall was there were not customers. I mean, a month later, our loads were 20%. I mean, people were afraid to fly, which I'm not sure if I remember. But I mean, the flying public was not ready to go back to the skies. None of the things that we all have in place now were in place, obviously, five days later.

3:59There were not federal employees doing screening. There were no reinforced cockpit doors. There was no no-fly list. And until we got those things in place, people were afraid to fly. So we were somewhat concerned in America West, which I'm sure all our competitors were, was, are we going to have enough pilots and flight attendants show up to fly these airplanes? So, you know, I remember going out to the crew lounges, you know, the days that we started back up and you go out there and there they were, you know, they showed up, you know, their uniforms on ready to go to work. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a valid reason to call in sick if you're not, if you don't feel safe, but, you know, aviation employees wanted to show up and, and they did.

4:42I mean, it was a somber environment. There were tears, but there wasn't fear. There was resolve. And that's, you know, that's in America West. I can't imagine what it was like at American United where they'd lost colleagues. But, you know, in aviation, those were, you know, the colleagues of the America West employees too. You know, they were piloting flying students, doing their jobs. And it was just so phenomenal to see, you know, how those people responded. And it's a great reminder of what amazing professionals we have in the business. And the other thing that I remember is how well the industry came together as an industry.

5:19You know, being a new CEO in that room with, you know, all these CEOs that I, you know, admired from afar, like, you know, Herb Kelleher, Gordon Bethune, Don Carty. And there I am, you know, 39 years old, sitting there working together on how we're going to do this. and everybody just pulled together. First on the legislation, the legislation we needed, the Air Transportation Stabilization Act, had components like war risk insurance coverage, which only United and America needed. It had loan guarantees that airlines like America West and a couple of others only needed. And no one fought each other's provision.

6:05No one looked at it and said, We don't need that. Give me mine. And they could have. They certainly could have. Those that didn't need the loan guarantees could have said, don't put that in. But they didn't because we all pulled together and we worked together on that legislation and never fought each other about provisions we wanted versus others and we got it done. And then really important is how we came together on making the industry secure. I mean, all these things that we all see now came together, but we weren't sure. No one was sure how it was going to work. And the industry put together a task force that was Herb Kelleher, Richard Anderson at Northwest, and Bob Baker, who was the COO of American.

6:50And they led this task force. And they weren't like figureheads leading a task force. These guys were working all day together to make sure that we could put in place something that kept our people safe and our customers safe, but was as efficient as it possibly could be to allow customers to get through the process. And look on that one. Back then, Southwest didn't even have boarding passes. you know so yeah all of a sudden all of a sudden we were going to move from a system where you know anyone could go through security without a boarding pass to where you needed to prove that you were a passenger and you know again we could have fought trying to figure out you know how southwest was going to make that happen but instead they all work together made sure we came up with the process that would work even for those with different systems and anyway we got it done and We did it because people work together.

7:44It's a great just example of this industry and how, first and foremost, how amazing the people are that work in it. The aviation professionals and, you know, how good we can be as leaders when we all pull together and work together. So that's what I like to remember. Never, of course, forget the tragedy that happened and those we lost, but also never forget, you know, what amazing things happened. Those are my thoughts every time I think about 9-11. That's a great reflection and important to remember. Important to remember today. Yeah. Anyway, we're going to have someone do that much, much better than I can with our guest later.

8:23Beverly Bass, the first female captain for American Airlines. And Beverly was the pilot in command of American Flight 77 on 9-11, 2001. And as many of our listeners know, but maybe not all, Beverly was one of 38 flights that was diverted to Gander, Newfoundland on 9-11. And what happened in Gander is, in many ways, another one of these great stories, kind of the antidote to the evil that happened on 9-11. Gander showed us the best of humanity. A small town suddenly caring for 7 ,000 refugees that landed in their town. Passengers taking care of each other. Airline professionals showing their compassion for customers that we see all the time.

9:10And Beverly's role was captured extremely well in the Broadway play Come From Away. So she's everything that's great about this business. I've had the privilege of knowing Beverly for a long time now. And I know I'm looking forward to talking to her and hearing her perspective, which I know is going to be amazing. Yeah. And thank you so much for making this happen. Come From Away is an incredible achievement on its own. I think the music is extraordinary. It beautifully captures the pain and sorrow of 9-11. And as you said, it is a great reminder of all the good in humanity. It was written 10 years after 2001, which is really interesting.

9:59Anyway, it's been a huge hit, and having Beverly with us today is a real treat. So, Doug, some other fitting news to report is kind of related to all this. On September 10th, which is tomorrow from when the podcast drops, you're being honored with the L. Welch Pogue Award for Lifetime Achievement in Aviation. It's given by the International Aviation Club of Washington, D.C. The award recognizes more than 20 years leading airlines as CEO and chairman, as well as the board service you continue and the wonderful Breaking Down Barriers nonprofit you and your wife Gwen created to help people in underserved communities become pilots.

10:43I saw a picture recently of some of those people who have been helped by breaking down barriers out in an airline. Just fabulous. You join a very select group of difference makers who have helped shape modern international commercial air transportation, including mentors and friends like Bob Crandall, Herb Kelleher, Gary Kelly. So I want to congratulate you on the POG Award, and I'm looking forward to being at the dinner in Washington to celebrate this well-deserved honor. Oh, it's nice of you. I know you're going to be there. Thanks. Look, thank you. That's all very kind, and it's very kind of them to do it.

11:20I got to tell you, I feel a little bit like I compelled him to do it. Two years ago, Gary Kelly was given the honor and he asked me to come, you know, be one of the people that introduced him, which I was happy to do. But I turned it into a little bit of a comedy routine about how the people of Southwest asked me to come to this, to give this competitor of mine an award that I had never, that I had never been given. And whether they fully appreciated how humiliating that was. So it really was. It was pretty well done, by the way. I was proud of the humor, but I think they really thought I was offended, which of course I'm not.

12:02But anyway, so now two years later, they asked me, and I've been retired now four years. It doesn't seem like I should still be doing these things. This will certainly be the last one. But it is an honor, and I view all these things as honors, not of me, but of the team, and an opportunity to go talk about the team, and talk about the kind of things we talk about, what a great industry this is with such great people. And it's a room full of industry people. So anyway, it's a very nice honor. I don't want to dismiss it by any means. I am indeed honored and privileged, and I'm happy to do it. I'm looking forward to it as well.

12:40Well, excellent. I was going to say it's long overdue, but I really am glad they're doing it. Okay, I want to mention that I'll be at the American Bar Association's Forum on Air and Space Law annual meeting in Denver next week. I'll be interviewing Frontier Airlines CEO Jimmy Dempsey, and we will bring that interview to you the following week. But if you're thinking about attending the ABA meeting, by all means, come and say hi. The airline's confidential part of the program is sponsored by Hush Blackwell Aviation Law Team, helping businesses take flight. OK, before we bring in Beverly, some news this week.

13:23In the you heard it here first category, at least I think you heard it here first. Southwest Airlines confirmed what we've been saying for a long time now, that the airline is opening lounges. It'll be late next year. The first four will be in Austin, Baltimore, Honolulu, and Nashville with seven more locations to follow after that. I'm pretty sure there's going to be a large one in Denver. And when Dallas gets the new head house built, there'll be a large one there as well and other cities. The lounges will be co-branded with Chase, which has its own growing network of very nice Chase Sapphire Reserve lounges.

14:04And my understanding is that the Southwest lounges will be high enough quality to be acceptable to Chase customers accustomed to Sapphire lounges. In other words, this is not bare bones Southwest. This is really fun and fancy Southwest. One key to this is that Southwest says it'll be launching a premium Chase credit card next year that will carry lounge access as a perk. It may initially be the only way to get lounge access. It's not clear yet if they're going to sell memberships to the lounges separately, but the credit card is the key. That'll generate additional revenue for Southwest and for Chase.

14:45So we'll see how that all shakes out. This is a natural and needed development for an airline trying to appeal more to business travelers. A nice lounge has become a requirement for a lot of business travelers. And as Southwest tries to sell more extra legroom seats and maybe first-class seats before long, the lounges, if done right and managed properly without long lines, overcrowded seating, stale food, all that. Lounges can really help Southwest toward more business travel bookings. They'll also make the Southwest Chase co-branded credit cards more appealing to travelers. And we've talked many times about how important credit cards are to airlines these days.

15:28Southwest co-branded lounges will also be a boost to Chase in its competition with American Express. You know, I have to believe, Doug, that if Herb were around, he'd be the biggest champion of Southwest lounges. First one to the bar, certainly, but also the biggest supporter of change because Herb often talked about the need to change. And I think Herb would have seen how air travel business was evolving maybe quicker than the rest of us. What do you think of all this? Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I think you're probably right. What I think about all this is I go back to our conversation on pricing earlier this, I don't know when that was last year sometime.

16:14And, you know, what's happened in our industry is as a result of a new pricing structure over the last decade that starts with basic economy and then builds up beyond that, you know, the industry's figured out how to actually get people to pay what they're willing to pay. And once you, once, once we can do that, you know, the people that are willing to pay more, if you want them to be, to pay more, you need to give them the quality of service, those fares demand, those people demand. And that's true of all airlines. It would be true of Southwest and, you know, they figured that out. Some, some, some figured it out sooner than others.

16:50Everybody's figuring it out now. And I think that's just that you're going to see this. I mean, maybe we'll continue to have, you know, the ultra low cost carriers or those carriers that fly to underserved airports with a different model. But clearly the model for any large airline in the United States is going to have this sort of start with basic spares and then build up on those with as many tiers as you can possibly create to get people to pay what they're willing to pay as you provide different services up that scale. And lounges are a big part of that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Last week, I mentioned that Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy and FAA Administrator Brian Bedford seem to be finding ways to pick fights with air traffic controllers, which I don't begin to understand when air traffic controllers are being told to work six-day schedules and mandatory overtime.

17:43And that's in the normal times. In the government shutdown times, they're asked to work without paychecks. But now we learn that Bedford is withholding a 2.8 % pay increase from air traffic controllers. That pay increase was ordered by Congress, and he's withholding the pay increase until controllers meet his demands for greater efficiency. But that's not real clear how you get there or what actually is demanded. Bedford says he's withholding that money until certain adjustments are made, including an increase in the time controllers are actively managing traffic during a shift. He talked about this issue when he was on Airlines Confidential last May, getting more time on the screen, essentially, for controllers during their workday.

18:38At that time, it seemed to me it was sort of a long-term ambition to help ease the shortage of controllers. Getting more time on position is something that is going to take study and careful management and cooperation with controllers in their union and not something I don't think, not something you can order up by Tuesday. I just don't get it. What I do know is watch this space. This is likely to get more heated and this could have consequences for airlines and travelers. Before we bring in Beverly, I want to thank our sponsors for making this podcast possible. Thanks to Infinity Flight Academy.

19:17Infinity Flight Academy is helping build the next generation of professional pilots. Airline hiring may move in cycles, but developing skilled professional pilots takes years. Infinity Flight provides structured airline-focused training designed to develop pilots with the skills, discipline, and professionalism needed for today's flight deck. If you need an example of that, we give you Beverly Bass, the most professional, skilled, discipline, everything all wrapped up into Beverly. When you hear the interview with her, you'll understand. From individual career pilots to large scale cadet and university programs, Infinity is helping build the aviation workforce of tomorrow.

20:01Learn more at infinityflight.com, Infinity Flight Academy, where future airline pilots take off. In addition, thanks to Sirium for its support of Airlines Confidential. Sirium offers the most accurate and precise data and analytics to enable airlines to optimize planning, operations, and passenger services. The right intelligence drives operational efficiencies, enables you to predict market shifts, and helps airlines respond quickly to maximize revenue, manage costs, and seize commercial opportunity. Visit Sirium.com for more. And deep appreciation to Ontario International Airport for its support of Airlines Confidential.

20:41ONT just launched the ONT Bold program, a proposed vision to transform the airport's facilities to streamline the passenger journey while also creating jobs, growing the regional economy, and building on ONT's legacy as a global gateway. The program includes plans for a new terminal, multi-story parking garage, upgrades to existing terminals, enhanced roadways, and new utilities. The ONT Bold program is early in the planning phase. Visit flyontario.com slash bold to learn more and join the journey to ONT's boldest chapter yet. Okay, let's bring in Captain Beverly Bass. Beverly Bass is an aviation treasure.

21:24Beverly started flying after her first year at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas. Her first professional flying was for a Fort Worth mortician. Despite lots of closed doors in front of her, she became the third female pilot at American Airlines and the first to make captain. She captained the first all-female crew in American, and she co-founded the International Society of Women Airline Pilots. But Beverly is best known as one of the central characters in Come From Away, the 2013 Tony Award-winning Broadway sensation that is so very smart, respectful, touching, and even funny. Beverly, great to have you with us on this solemn occasion marking 25 years since the September 11th terrorist attacks.

22:11Welcome to Airlines Confidential. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, Beverly. It's Doug. How are you? Doing great. Thank you. Good. It's been a while since I've seen you. And Scott, you may not know us, but Beverly was kind enough to host either me and my family or me and some of the management team or me and the board for showings of Come From Away on Broadway. So I saw it at least three times when Beverly was there. Every time was nice enough to host us and introduce us to the cast. And it's just phenomenal. That's so cool. That was amazing. Anyway, have you seen Come From Away, Scott? I have.

22:48Yes. Yes. Absolutely loved it. Yeah, everybody that has does. I just have to say, I saw it with some trepidation because I sort of avoided everything 9-11 because it was just so painful for a long time. But Come From Away was so uplifting and captured all of the feelings. I just felt so much better after seeing it. It was phenomenal. Yeah, exactly. So we'll get into that because I agree with you. I mean, it's a solemn occasion, as you said, but there's so much good that came, you know, what the industry showed, what our team showed, what people showed. So anyway, so Beverly, one question that we always start with is one that the guy who started this podcast always asked people, which is, how did you get into this crazy airline business?

23:43Well, I'm not sure that's an easy question. I often wonder that myself. I didn't know a single pilot growing up. And my dad drove PT boats in the Navy, so not even close to flying airplanes. And my love affair with airplanes really began when I was a young girl growing up in Fort Myers, Florida. Back then, Pagefield was, and still is, a fairly small airport. But National Airlines flew their 727s in and out of there as well as Eastern. And so I would beg anybody I could to take me to Pagefield. And you could actually stand pretty close to the runway behind a chain link fence. And I would watch those jets land.

24:30And I just remember thinking the pilots in those cockpits had the most exciting job in the world. I knew that someday I wanted to be one of them, but I wasn't sure how I was going to go. So as you mentioned, I took my first flying lesson. Actually, it was my first summer home from TCU. When I was 16, I had asked my dad if I could take flying lessons. But as much as he was excited about my flying, we were in the horse business. We raised and showed registered quarter horses. And I think he thought I started flying, I would lose interest in the family hobby. It wasn't a business. It was a hobby.

25:17And so at 16, he did not let me fly. But then, as I said before, my first summer home, I got in my car and I drove to Pagefield. I signed up for flight lessons. and I came down that day, walked into my parents' house, and I announced to them that I would fly for the rest of my life. And I knew that I would, but I had no idea in what capacity. So at 24, I was hired by American as their third female pilot. I was a flight engineer on the 727. And 10 years later, as you mentioned earlier, I became American's first female captain. But remember, everything with the airlines is based on seniority. So it's not like I did anything extraordinary to get there.

26:08It was just my turn. And so what began with a little girl watching airplanes through a fence became an extraordinary flying career. And I flew jets for 40 years, 32 with American. And after American, I ended up flying a corporate jet for eight more years. So that's how I got into this business. One flying lesson, a great deal of determination and an absolute refusal to believe that being a woman should keep me out of the cockpit. And I wouldn't trade the journey for anything. It was fantastic. Hear, hear. Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk more about that determination because the challenges and the accomplishments of women in aviation are just so important and so important for future generations.

27:02What barriers do you still see out there? Do you think we're making progress or is it always going to be a male-dominated profession? I think, obviously, we are making progress. When I was hired by American, we were one half of 1 % with American. Today, our representation with the airlines has changed, but boy, not by very much. I mean, we are still hovering around 7%. So those numbers are very small. Although, when I go to the airport, I don't think there's ever a time that I'm there that I don't see female pilots. I feel like they're everywhere. Because in the early 70s, mid-70s, we would go maybe a couple of years without ever seeing another female pilot.

27:55But I do think it's a career where women still feel maybe a little bit isolated. You can fly a three-day trip to Europe and never see another female pilot. So you feel sort of left alone maybe. And I never had that feeling because I was great friends with the flight attendants. I lived with five flight attendants in New York when I was first hired. and I had never in my life worked with women. So I was always very comfortable being in a cockpit with the men. It was just a comfort zone for me. But I did make an effort to befriend the flight attendants because I never wanted them to think that I thought that I was better than them because I was in the front of the airplane instead of the back.

28:49But as you mentioned earlier, I was co-founder of the International Society of Women Airline Pilots, and we had our convention in Sydney, Australia. I believe it was 2017. And we vowed at that time to try to reach 30 % of women by 2030. Well, we are four years away from that, and we're not even close. So it's still a tough job for women to get into. Yeah. And we talk about why. Why is it so hard? Is it the cost? The cost is tremendous. Roughly, it's about$100 ,000 just to get enough flight time to get to the point where you can make money either being a flight instructor or flying for a regional airline.

29:40And then I think women still feel the responsibility of raising a family and being at home. How can you possibly have the unusual schedule that we as airline pilots have and be a mom. Well, I'm here to tell you it's actually quite easy to do, but my situation was different. I had 16 years seniority with American when I got pregnant at 39. So I basically worked nine days a month and had 21 days off when I was raising my kids. And I think my kids today, if you ask them, they would probably tell you they're not even sure their mother had a job. I never missed anything. I was home for every single thing they did.

30:32So I don't know if women on the outside are able to see what great things the job can actually bring to their lives. One of your kids is part of that 7 % now, right? Your daughter Paige flies. She is. I'm so excited. She was actually hired. Oh, I hate to say this, but she was hired by Delta first, then United. And American was the last one to come after her, which was kind of a disappointment to me at the time. But she's a Texan and wanted to be in Dallas. But it was hard to turn down the Delta job. It really was. She went to the University of Georgia. So she's a bulldog. And that was a hard time.

31:18No, I remember it well. I got involved. I think you did, yes. Her last name is different than yours, right? Because you never changed her last name. So I'm not sure they knew we had the daughter of Beverly Bass. She had a million letters of recommendation at American and zero at Delta. and tell them what I remember. I know. We got it fixed, fortunately. There was no way we were going to let Beverly Bazzisle water be falling for somebody. At least give her the choice anyway. Yes. I'm glad she's with us. I say us, them now. I'm so happy. I would have been devastated if she had been with somebody else.

32:01Yeah, I know. Okay, all right, Beverly, transitioning back to 9-11 now, 25 years ago. I know you have all sorts of memories, But what, you know, tell us kind of, as you look back on it right now, what really sticks out? What do you remember the most about that time? Well, first of all, it's almost impossible for me to believe it's been 25 years. There are times it seems like yesterday, and then there are times it seems like a lifetime ago. I guess what I remember most about that day is the overwhelming uncertainty. We were flying from Paris to Dallas. And we knew that airplanes had struck the World Trade Center.

32:43And we only knew that because one of the airplanes in front of us, I think it was US Air, came on our air-to-air frequency, which is what we monitor over international waters. And they knew that airplanes had hit the tower. And we didn't know anything. We didn't know details. else. We didn't know they'd been hijacked. We didn't know who the airplanes belonged to. We didn't know what kind of airplanes they were. So as pilots, as you know, we are trained to remain calm and focus on the safety of our passengers. And that's really all we could do at that time, even though the world below us was changing by the minute.

33:24I don't think I can ever forget the silence and the disbelief as we learned the full magnitude of what had happened. And it really was about 30 hours after the attacks before any of us as a crew saw the images on TV. So it was a long time for us before we were ever able to see what really happened, you know, with the 3 ,000 lives and the families that were changed forever. I mean, and I'm not certain that we realized at that moment that aviation would never be the same. It isn't. And I don't know that it'll ever be the way it was pre-9-11. But, you know, the good thing that came out of it is I remember the beautiful part of that terrible day.

34:23And that was the fact that we were diverted to Gander, where, as you know, from seeing the musical, complete strangers opened their homes, their hearts to thousands of stranded passengers and crew members. They gave us everything, food, clothing, shelter, comfort. And they asked for nothing in return, not a single thing. They said, just a thank you on your way out, and we're happy. So I guess it's probably fair to say that 25 years later, I still carry both sides of that day with me. Obviously, you can never forget the unimaginable horror of 9-11, but then the extraordinary goodness we experienced in Gander.

35:09So, you know, it just kind of reminds me that even during humanity's darkest moments, kindness can still shine through. And sometimes it shines brighter than we ever imagined. And that's kind of what my experience in Gander has taught me and been with me through these 25 years. Talk a little bit more about that. Did Come From Away capture it well? Was it chaotic? Was it organized? What was it really like? Well, the Ganderites might say it was a little chaotic, but from our perspective, it was quite organized. I think, yes, to answer your question, they got it so right. And people often say, why did it take so long to get you off the airplane?

36:01Because we had flown for seven hours when we landed in Gander. We were 36 out of 38 wide bodies to touchdown that day. And so we were on the airplane a total of 28 hours, 21 on the ground, seven in the air. And I don't know how the planning went into who would get off first or what airplane they would deplane when. But what I do know is that the school bus drivers were on strike. So it took negotiating with them to get them to agree to come off strike to transport us because there wasn't any other way to get nearly 7000 people from those airplanes to gander in the surrounding communities where they were going to be housed and staying.

36:49And they stayed everywhere. They were in churches, fire stations, schools. As many as 10 people would stay in one home with people that didn't even speak English. It was just unbelievable. But to us, on the outside, it seemed very organized because every passenger got three hot meals a day. They were being entertained. I think they actually served like 280 ,000 meals during our five days there. It's amazing. It was just unbelievable. Wow. So, Beverly, how did the play actually come to you? I mean, how did you end up being one of the central characters of this, or the central character, really, of this play?

37:32Did they reach out to you or did you somehow get in contact? No, it was so odd how it happened, really. On the 10th anniversary of 9-11, actually it was the summer before that, I got a call, a random call from an Austrian film crew. asking me if I was going back to Gander for the 10th anniversary. And I said, no. I said, I didn't know anything about it. It's not like, you know, the Chamber of Commerce sent out invitations. I didn't know anything was happening. So I said, no. And they said, well, we are actually going to film Nick and Diane, who are other central characters in the musical, and we would love it if you would go.

38:16Well, I had always, always wanted to take my family to Gander. I wanted them to know where I spent those five days because I knew the events of 9-11 and Gander would always be a part of history. I knew that would be true. So I never got the chance to take my kids at that time. But I talked to my husband. I said, what would you think of going to Gander for the 10th anniversary? And he said, I would love to. So we went not knowing a single thing about what we were going to see or do while there. Well, unbeknownst to us, they have the most beautiful ceremonies and commemorations. And it is just extravagantly done for a little community like Gander.

39:02Everything is in the hockey rink. It was just unreal. So during those couple of days there, you do tons of interviews with news folks, you know, for five-second sound bites for the evening news. And then one day at the Comfort Inn, which is where I stayed on 9-11, there was an envelope waiting at the front desk for me. And they said that there were two playwrights in town and would I consider doing an interview with them? Well, I mean, I didn't even really know what a playwright was, but I said, sure. So I sat down with David Hine and Irene Sankoff, married couple, young couple, and my interview lasted four hours.

39:47And that was kind of the end. I mean, we just got on the airplane, flew back to Texas. and over the next four years until 2015, they would occasionally send me an email or ask me a mundane question to clarify something, which I would do. And again, I knew nothing about the musical. So in the summer of 2015, we got a call from the producers inviting us to the world premiere opening of the musical Come From Away. So we get on an airplane and we go to San Diego, having no idea what we are going to see. I don't know that I'm represented in the show. I do not know that the song Me in the Sky has been written, which basically chronicles my aviation career.

40:43And I mean, I just couldn't even believe what I was seeing on stage. And in the first few minutes, when Jen Kalella rolls out her chair and picks up the phone and says, hello, Tom, my husband buried his hands. That was the end of him for the rest of the show. So it was very emotional. It's something that I have a difficult time describing, seeing yourself being played on stage. It's kind of unusual. I can't imagine. And no preparation, no warning. No. Whereas Nick and Diane had been very involved with the writers, and they went to the festivals and all the things that you do leading up to getting a play or a musical on stage.

41:35So they were very familiar. As a matter of fact, I believe Nick actually texted me at one point and said, hey, you need to, you know, kind of get involved with this come from away thing. He said, because you're like represented in this show. I just ignored it. I mean, I hate to say it. I just didn't have a clue. I was in the dark. Amazing. So we knew nothing the first time we saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Over the course of this, you developed a close friendship with Jen Colella, the actress who portrays you. And I think I read you gave her your flight jacket, wings and service pen that you were wearing on September 11th.

42:17And she wore that in the in the Broadway show. Talk about the show going to Broadway. And did it change, you know, you becoming sort of a celebrity? Jen and I did become immediate close friends. We still are today. We are very different people, but we respect each other's crafts so magnificently. She's amazing, by the way. Oh my gosh. She is unbelievable. And she's actually been to visit me at my home in Florida. We spent three days out on the boat and tooling around. But yes, I just adore her. I knew we were the same size and I thought it would just be awesome if she would wear my jacket. I actually gave her my jacket with my check airman wings, my service pen and everything, but she wore it in Seattle before the show went to Broadway.

43:15The problem is that jacket had a red lining. So as you know, from seeing the show, she takes the jacket on and off because she becomes a different character. And the red lining was too pronounced on stage for her to continue to wear it. So she only wore it in Seattle, but I would have loved for her to have always worn it. And then the show actually made it to Broadway in record time. It generally takes years for a show to get to Broadway. And I think we were there in a little less than two years. It opened in La Ahoy in the summer of 2015. And we opened on Broadway, March 12, 2017. You know, we were just on a roller coaster.

44:03The producers of the show were amazing because all of us who are represented in the show were wined and dined and flown to every city that the show opened in. And even after Broadway, when the tours went to London's West End and Australia and Toronto, I mean, they flew us all over the world for all of these events. So we've just been on a ride with the show for 11 years until COVID shut it down. But then, you know, it's picked up again. And to be honest with you, now that the rights have been sold to the regional theaters, I probably get an average of five requests every single day to do Zoom calls with the cast or the actress playing my part.

44:54It's almost to the point where I need somebody. I need a handler.

45:01Are y 'all interested? No, thanks. But yes, what was it like on Broadway? You asked me that. We spent a lot of time in New York, my husband and I did, and my kids when it was on Broadway. It was very interesting because the show was such a success and became so popular. It almost became difficult for me to walk through Times Square. And I think it's because my hair is so white that people recognize me easily. And I almost had to wear a scarf and sunglasses just to get you. People would come up to me. They'd run me down and say, oh, my gosh, are you uncomfortable way? And I'd say, oh, no, I can't sing.

45:49I can't dance. I'm not uncomfortable way. But, yes, I am the real pilot. So it was a fun time, but it was challenging because that's not a role that I'm used to. I'm used to being locked behind a cockpit door. You may not like the attention, but you deserve it. It's an amazing story. You're an amazing individual. It's so, so deserved. Hey, so you've added to your resume the title of author as well. So I know you've written a children's book titled Me in the Sky. Tell us about that. What's the motivation behind that? Why did you decide to do that? Well, I never wanted to write a book about myself.

46:34I felt like enough female pilots had already done that. And quite frankly, I didn't consider my story to be real interesting. I mean, I came up as a civilian in aviation. I pretty much went through the routine channels of flying airplanes to get to where I was. So there wasn't anything earth shattering about my background. But when the show was on Broadway, some folks from Random House went to see it. And they contacted the producers to see if they could meet with me and write my autobiography. So I agreed. I met with them. But I told them under no circumstances did I want a book to be written about me.

47:17And so after three meetings, they finally whittled it down to, would you consider a children's book? And I never thought about that avenue. And I said to my husband, I said, it's maybe unfair of me not to write a children's book, because what if it would encourage even one little person to become a pilot? So, yes, I agreed to write that book. You can read it in six minutes. It's young kids. But but I do love the book. I think it's real cute. And I was happy with the way it turned out. But but I didn't want my autobiography to be written. I just never felt like that was important to me. Interesting.

48:07All right. I'm I'm curious where you'll be on the 25th anniversary. And also, as we look back on this anniversary, what does 25 years since 9-11 mean to you? Well, on September 8th, we will be heading to Gander, a little place called Gander. It will be our seventh trip back there. We're staying until the 14th. And it could be our last trip there. I always hate to say that, but it could because it'll be the last major anniversary, certainly, that I'll be around for. So, yeah, a lot of things going on. A lot of interviews already set up. And I have heard the enormous amounts of news teams that are going to be there.

48:56And we actually have somebody from America who's going to be there, the government affairs person. And it will be the first time through all of these events in Gander that somebody from American will be there. So I'm very excited. I have a couple, if you will. Good. That's pretty awesome. So 25 years later, what does September 11th mean to me? Oh, my gosh. It means so many things. One of the things we promised, we all promised on that day was to never forget. And that's been my biggest fear is that the younger generation would forget because I know some schools don't teach it. I think it's very important that the young generation knows.

49:43We have a whole group of people that think we've always had TSA at the airports. There used to be a time you could park your car outside the terminal, walk to the gate and meet your loved ones or your family or whatever. They don't even know that that was a possibility. So I think we have to remember those we lost. We need to honor the families that have carried that loss really for a quarter of a century. And we can't ever forget the first responders, the flight crews, military personnel, and just countless others who have been affected forever because, you know, I think almost as many people who died that day just cleaning up the debris at New York.

50:29I mean, it's just the repercussions from that have been terrible. But it also reminds me of something I never want us to forget. And that's even on humanity's darkest days, there can be extraordinary goodness. I saw it firsthand in a little town called Gander. So 25 years later, I still believe that is one of the most important lessons of September 11th. We can't always control what happens in this world, but we can control how we respond to one another. And sometimes simple acts of kindness can become a story the world remembers forever. And that's really what has happened with Gander. After 9-11, on all of my trips, my subsequent trips, the flight crews knew I had diverted to Gander, and they all wanted to hear the story.

51:26So on every single trip, I'm having to tell the story about Gander. And I just thought, you know, I just want the whole world to hear this story. And Come From Away has made that possible. Millions of people have seen that show. It is the most produced musical of 2026. Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. It really is. And it just captures it all so well, as beautifully as you just described. Amen to everything you just said. Beverly, this has just been a delight. Thank you so much. We appreciate all that you did then, all that you've done in your career. and all that you shared with us today. Just can't thank you enough.

52:15Well, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, Beverly, I mean, for me too. I know you have a lot of demands on your time. People want to hear this story. We want to hear it for a good reason. We want to hear it because of what you just said. And, you know, we have a lot of those people you're talking about that listen to Scott's show. There's a lot of aviation people that listen that weren't, you know, around 25 years ago or certainly weren't in the business. And it's really important that they can hear from you what we all learned. So anyway, thank you so much. I think it's going to make a difference.

52:47You continue to make a difference. We're incredibly proud of you. Our countries are proud of you. And have a great time in Gander. Thank you so much. Appreciate talking to you guys. All right. We will be right back with more on Airlines Confidential. Promotional support provided by the ultimate avgeek website, thearchive.net, A vast collection of airline memorabilia, timetables, route maps, rare cabin and airport photos, special flights and more, all at the archive.net, the hub of air transport history. Thanks again to Beverly. Thoughts, Doug? Any further reflections on 9-11 and how it changed the airline industry?

53:23Well, yeah, first of all, as advertised, Beverly's an amazing individual. You know, so I enjoyed all of that. what I particularly liked was there at the end where she said what, as I said better than I could say it, that even on our darkest days, there can be extraordinary goodness. And that's what I keep wanting to try to, you know, one, as we say, you know, looking back and never forget, don't forget that. But also, you know, I think, you know, we should try and keep learning. You know, our mutual friend, Sarah Nelson, who we had on the program a while back, sent me a speech she gave. She said something that I want to quote her on, because I couldn't have said it as well either.

54:12But Sarah in this speech says, and this is a quote, I remember not long after 9-11, I'd look up on the wall, and it said, never forget. And I remember thinking, who in the hell is ever going to forget this? Yeah. And then she says, but we do. And, you know, I think she's right. And that sounds kind of negative. She's not trying to be negative that we've forgotten. What she's trying to encourage us, you know, not just to remember the tragedy and honor those we've lost, but to remember what the tragedy taught us. You know, and probably a more positive way, by the way, if we had thought of it back then, is instead of saying never forget, is to say always remember.

54:56Always remember what happened and remember those we've lost. But remember, you know, the extraordinary goodness, as Beverly said. So to me, you know, that's a couple of things. First and foremost, you know, holding airline professionals in the high regard that they deserve and the respect that they deserve. You know, it's a noble profession, all of them, pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, gate agents, management. They're all out. It's a group of people who are working very hard to ensure safe travel. And it's, you know, they deserve that respect, professional, particularly those out there on the front line.

55:40They're professionals that are there for our safety and they're really, really good at it. And they take it very seriously. You know, and I think sometimes our passengers don't remember that at times. We saw a lot of that during COVID. And management, of which I was one, doesn't remember it all the time. And it's, I don't know. So that's a big lesson that I think, you know, just, you know, don't forget is, you know, when you really need that professionalism and that safety, it's there. And they're there to do that. And it's it's worthy of the respect that it deserves. And the other thing is we have an obligation to keep the system secure.

56:26And, you know, what I remember from that, you know, what happened on 9-11 is we had everyone thought the system was secure. But we had a hole that bad people figured out how to exploit. And that hole was, if someone wants to hijack the airplane, let them have it and get it to the ground safely. Nothing in the security system contemplated that people were willing to die for it, that cared so much for a cause that they were willing to die for it and take down hundreds of others, thousands of others with them. So we had to close that hole. and when other things came about that you know that we hadn't contemplated you know that these people were trying to then put bring explosives on in their shoes or in their underwear you know we had to figure out how to make sure we were screening for that and when we figured out that there was a plot to use liquids to create explosives on an airplane over in London we immediately as an industry worked together with the government to figure out ways to make sure that those types of liquids could never get on an airplane.

57:35All those things we see now, they were done because we all worked together to make the system secure. And those things happened because back in the early days that I remember, we had security briefings. Early on, it was at least twice a year. They got to be about once a year. The CEOs would all be in an A4A meeting, and we'd go over and have a briefing with TSA and Homeland Security and leave all your phones outside in the locker and top secret briefing. And we'd get told these consistently. Those people still exist. They are highly interested in the aviation industry because they know if they can get to where people are afraid to fly, that will just do havoc to the U.S.

58:22economy. and they're very focused on it. They tell us this every time, which would just scare us. And they talk about things that they see and other things they may be working on. And I'd leave those meetings and say, gosh, all you did was just tell us a bunch of things that make me nervous. But it kept you aware and it kept you truly, they ever did call and say, look, we have an issue. You're just, anything you need, what do you need us to do? We'll get to where, you know, okay, hey, take water out of the security area if you need to. We need to make sure we're safe. Anyway, those security briefings have gone away.

58:58At least they went away gradually while I was there. I don't know if that's the best thing. Hopefully they've been restored now that we have the hostilities we have going on in the Middle East, but I don't know that they have. And then, look, we have scheduled airlines flying around without full TSA-level security. You know, things like credential authorization technology, which is just, you know, a must have for scheduled airlines to make sure that, you know, the people that are flying or who they say they are isn't done at all scheduled airlines. I mean, it just never would have happened in the 10 years following 9-11.

59:34And, you know, it's, you know, they use it to market themselves as, you know, we're easier to get through security. and you know some airlines don't seem to care because they have some sort of you know marketing relationship with these with these smaller scheduled airlines so i don't know it just we need to we need to always remember and this is a good time to reflect back upon that and make sure that we're doing i think we have an obligation to our people um and to do everything we can and That's, again, that's encouragement, not negativity. It's positivity. 9-11 taught us so many great things that I think we need to always remember.

1:00:16And those are the things I remember. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I teach students now who weren't alive when 9-11 happened. And so it is hard in some ways to keep those lessons forefront in everybody's mind. But I think we need to. Yeah, and Bev mentioned this. There are just so many things that people see and think, you know, why are you making me do this? Technology can make it a lot better. And TSA, by the way, has done a great job. And my comments have nothing to do with individual airlines. It's just that our government needs to do a better job of remembering and making sure that we're doing it everywhere.

1:00:54And making it easy to make sure we're secure as easy as we possibly can for customers, but also never getting to a point where it's less secure. Yeah, absolutely. Great reflections. Thank you. Thank you for that. Thanks as well to the Executive MBA in Aviation at the University of Colorado Denver for making this podcast possible. The Executive MBA in Aviation at CU Denver is the first degree of its kind in the world taught by industry experts and designed for ambitious leaders from across the aviation ecosystem. With classes located at Denver International Airport and week-long residencies in Washington, D.C.

1:01:31And at airports around the world, students experience a hybrid, flexible course structure that balances in-person and online classes without career interruption. Go to business.ucdenver.edu to learn more. And one of those airports just announced is Pittsburgh International. Our friend Christina Kosotis will be hosting students for a week, I think for the upcoming cohort next year, as they learn the airport business on the ground. Should be a ton of fun and what a great education. Thanks to RTX as well for its support of Airlines Confidential at RTX. The century of aerospace and defense innovation shapes a unique perspective.

1:02:15It takes more than technology alone to rapidly advance the future of flight and strengthen global security. It takes the vision to see what's next, adapting expertise and scaling manufacturing capability to deliver where and when it matters most. Perspective is everything RTX. Visit rtx.com to learn more. All right, in the mailbag, Scott, we have Ben from Scottsdale on a topic that you mentioned on the podcast last week. Ben says, hey, Scott, long time listener to the show, but first time writing into you. As a born and raised southerner from Atlanta, Dolly Parton meant so much to so many. And like countless others, I'm deeply saddened by her passing.

1:02:58While reading about the plans to rename Nashville International Airport to Dolly Parton International Airport, I learned the fact that no major U.S. airport is named after a woman. The closest thing we have to that is the Bill and Hillary Clinton National Airport in Little Rock. This just goes to show that while the aviation industry has made great strides in recent decades to be more representative and inclusive, we have a lot more work to do in this regard. Thanks. You spend a lot of time in Nashville. Any thoughts on Dolly? I do spend a lot of time in Nashville. My daughter lives there. I'm on the board of Vanderbilt.

1:03:32My mom lives there. So I'm there a lot. Well, it's up to the people of Tennessee. I think it'd be fantastic. I don't know. So I, like all of us, have seen all these Dolly Parton remembrances, and you can't turn away. What an amazing individual she was. I think a great example for all of us. I think it'd be wonderful. So hopefully that can happen. But it's, again, up to the airport authority and the people of Nashville, I guess. But hopefully that happens. I will note also that we saw that American Airlines has got a flight starting sometime not too long from now from Dallas to Nashville that is flight number 925 after Dolly's working 9-5.

1:04:15Really? So the aviation tributes have begun. I'm sure we'll see more. Hopefully the biggest one, renaming that airport, will happen too. Yeah, yeah. I just love among the many things. I just love what she did for economic development in eastern Tennessee. And, you know, she just did a lot. He created Dollywood to create jobs and bring in tourists and all of that. So anyway, I do think it's clear we're going to be departing from Parton sometime soon. Apparently, the Tennessee governor announced a proposal to rename the airport. The Metropolitan Nashville Airport Authority said it will discuss the renaming at its next meeting, which is September 17th.

1:05:03passengers are posting on Facebook that some flight crews are already welcoming them to Dolly Parton International when they land. A Southwest pilot was heard the other day calling Dolly Parton ground. So love it. All right. Also in the mailbag, Nick, who puts his location as traveling, responded to our earlier discussion about long wait times at passport control in Europe because of problems with new technology. Nick says, hi, guys. I love your podcast. Always insightful with great interviews and excellent questions. Thank you. So I was a bit surprised by your lack of balance commentary in episode 350 regarding the long lines at border control in Europe.

1:05:46You compared non-EU passport waiting times in Europe to global entry in the US. Guys, that's hardly fair. Global entry is a pay service and limited to a relatively small subset of the traveling public. If you want to be fair, I would suggest that you compare wait times in the U.S. for U.S. citizens to EU for EU citizens. I am fortunate to have both U.S. and EU passports and find them quite close. My wife is not a U.S. citizen and has had to regularly wait for over an hour while arriving in the U.S. Now, I agree things need to improve on both sides of the Atlantic, but it's important to compare what is comparable.

1:06:30Thanks again and keep up the great work. And I would say point well taken. I have friends whose partners are not U.S. citizens and even longtime green card holders who have had long waits entering the country in the last couple years. Anxiety is a lot higher because of the treatment non-U.S. citizens have received. So an excellent comment, Nick. Appreciate that very much. All right. That's all for this week. I'll be back next week with an interview with Andrew Levy, the co-founder and CEO of Avello Airlines. Maya Liebman will be back with me. Can't wait for that. Thanks for listening, everyone.

1:07:11Thank you, Doug. Thank you, Beverly. Just a terrific way to commemorate an important anniversary. Appreciate you very much. Thank you, Scott. Have a great week, everybody. This podcast is produced by Mass Media. Info at massmedia.net.