Angelica Nwandu Survived the Unthinkable, Then Built The Shade Room

23:15I wanted confidence and I wanted education. So that's what I gave the equity for. And so I learned a lot from him. And he was the one that told me, don't take investment money, right? Which is the way that I'm going is a very weird way for media. But we could talk about that more. I can't wait. I have so many questions around that face. Yeah, but he used to don't take investment money. He's like, build a business first. But this person gave you connections, gave you access, gave you an understanding of the wider media landscape, where you were sitting. And was that kind of conduit between you and the rest of the world?

23:51He basically taught me how to build a business. So he's like, business is profit. If you don't have a profit model, then you don't have a business, you know? It's great that you had someone to tell you that. Yeah, but I mean, I know. A lot of people don't. Let me tell you, a lot of people are like, you know what? You create a business and it's a vanity project and it's here for your ego and you can hire lots of people and you can grow, grow, grow. But no, the point of a business is to make a profit. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't like completely against taking invest money, which is ironic because I had taken invest money.

24:18But he was like, I don't want you to take millions before you have a business, before you have a profit model, you know? And so he's like, find out how to make profit in a way that's sustainable and that you can grow. and then when necessary, take money, right? So I took that to heart and I, you know, I started building, I started hiring people that can make the business money. So first it was sales, right? And then once the, you know, I got burnt out because I did, you know, I couldn't keep doing this. Then I hired people like journalists to be able to continue to, you know, post on the site so that we could make more money from like the website.

24:54And we built backwards. We started with Instagram and I realized, okay, hey, while this was smart to disrupt the industry and get our name out there, we have to have an O and O, right? We have to have somewhere to live. And I learned that because Instagram deleted us. Okay, which was the best thing they ever did for me. Which actually was one of the things I was going to ask you because I thought you deleted your page. Because in the beginning, I remember, because I was around a lot of shade room obsessed people and they'd be like, she deleted again. And I was like, I think that, like, I don't understand what happened.

25:24So you were actually taken off of Instagram. It wasn't you. No, we were, Instagram, I think this was around the 500, right after the New York Times. And I'm like, no. Right after we just got the best validation ever. Exactly. I remember I was coming off a plane and all of a sudden I look and everybody's like, Shane Rose deleted. But it was the best thing they ever did for me. And the reason why was because we had to start over from one follower and start over again. But everybody loves things that get blacklisted. Oh, yes. So CNN picked it up. Yes. But everybody, people who never knew what the shade room was were hearing, what's this thing that Instagram, you know, banned from Instagram?

26:03And that made us grow even faster. We grew, we, it took us, the first six months, it took us 500, six months to get 500. This time, I think it was probably like a month or two or, you know what I mean? Like it was growing exponentially because everybody was reporting on it. But not only that, but I guess what you were able to do is actually build a moat around your business. because while building on Instagram, you weren't in control of your business because it was just a page on Instagram. Building the site was then going to allow you to create an actual business and a company. And then it could have, you know, various different channels in different places.

26:37Exactly. It let you go, almost go back to the beginning and rethink the way of bringing this to your customers. No, bringing this to your readers. Yeah, we had to become a cross-platform brand. Yes. And so now we're on every single platform that exists. We even just started at Switch because we're like, we have to figure out how to show up on Twitch. Like we're just everywhere. Right. And yeah, because you can't rely on one platform. No, you cannot. So tell me how you started to think about, you know, thankfully you had this great guy that came on board and helped you think through the business.

27:06But how were you thinking about revenue, profitability, staffing? And also, I really want to understand what your vision for the company started to be as like the more that you grew. Where do you want to start? Give me all of it. Well, let's start with the vision piece because I feel like that's so important. Some people have like a very, very clear vision from the outset. Others, it comes to them as they go through. Did you, once you started to get a bit of traction, did you think to yourself, I can start to disrupt your traditional media and I'm going to be the next ex? Or were you like, I'm in a lane of my own.

27:40I'm going to do my own thing and see what happens. I wanted to be in a lane of my own because I couldn't compare it to much, Even though we had competitors, ideally, because people, you know, go certain places to get news. I just knew that it was different in the way that we were building it. Right. It was it was something that hadn't existed before in that way. And so but I did see I did have a vision. I had a vision for the impact of the shade room. I knew that once I started to see that it was impacting the news cycle and that people were instead of just doing your first 10 articles in the morning, they would do it, you know, throughout the day.

28:14I was like, oh, this has influence. So I did see us as a leader in this industry. Or I saw us as a site that people were looking at to say, what are they doing? And that's what a lot of people would say. Well, can we meet? Can we have coffee? What are you doing? You know, and I remember going to a big, they own a huge site. And they invited me to Calabasas. And then I sat with them. And he's like, this is the dumbest business idea I've ever seen. You know, as I'm sitting, you know, mind you, I'm driving from Hawthorne because I'm broke at this time. still. But I'm going to Calabasas and like, this is the dumbest business idea.

28:50He's like, you're building a platform on Instagram. Like they can easily just take you down again. They took you down the first time, you know? And so, yeah, the idea was profitability. At first, we started with small business because nobody, no big advertiser wanted to advertise on the platform. They're like, what's this Instagram blog? So they didn't take it seriously at first. So we did start with small businesses like your, I don't know, Slim Fit Tea. You know what I mean? We started with that and that worked. And then we started that way and then Fashion Nova came. So we made a profit how we could in the beginning.

29:28And so we did build a good size small business with that money. And then I said, OK, now it's time to elevate into bigger business deals. Right. And that was very hard because we had to break open that ceiling when a lot of brands didn't feel like we were brand safe. You know, they were like, oh, you know, you guys put a Z on the end of that word. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like they just didn't understand it. And then we were trying to take them from traditional media because they were still there. Advertisers were still advertising on traditional media. Have you seen that full migration happen?

30:03Are you getting like much like better advertisers at this point? Oh, yeah. We work with, I mean, we work with McDonald's. We work with, I mean, General Motors, everybody. Like real blue chip brands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of the studios for movies come to the shade room. If there's a black character in it, they're like, oh, go to the shade room. You know, even we just even had a deal for weapons or like we do branded content with, I mean, we work with so many big brands now. But it took a long time. Like I had to hire people that I would take people from other BET or like TV One and I would bring them to, you know, the shade room and say, you have to evangelize us in these spaces.

30:42We had to go to Cannes and like really introduce ourselves. We had to create, you know, marketing pitches and, you know, sizzles and everything like that to really communicate the impact of the shade room, you know, because that wasn't felt at first. And so it took a while.

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32:04And what does the business look like today? Is the shade room profitable? Yes, we've been profitable ever since like 2015 and continue to be profitable. And even with all the growth that you're experiencing? Yes, because we stay lean. Because you stayed lean. We stayed lean. And I think that's very important. Okay, double-edged sword, right? I'll just keep it, be honest. I think I'm frugal. And that's because, you know, I've just been frugal my whole life. So I do, I am lean, but I do think I'm at a place now where it's time to spend. It's time to really spend and invest bigger. And I think that the lean, it gets you far, but then at some point you have to really, really invest in those, the next level.

32:48I love that you say that because I think there's such a huge misconception assumption that having investment in your business means that you lose all control. And I think you are a really good example of somebody who had a small investor come in, that investor was useful beyond their cash, which I think is the golden rule of taking investment. If it's just about the money, it's never worth it. If an investor comes, they need to bring more than just the money, a set of expertise, a set of experience, connections that you don't have that can properly be advantageous to the business. So I think that that's really sensible, but taking investment doesn't mean that you lose control.

33:25And I wonder, so you only have one investor at this point, it's just that original one or have you taken money throughout the... Well, so I had him and then we were on a plan. It was basically, it was like a convertible note and we were, I was supposed to pay him like a percentage of profit over time. I never paid him until one day in 2018. I hit him up and I'm like, look, I have half a million. I mean, yeah I said I have half a million for you take this and I want my equity back and he's like really? I'm like yeah just take the check I want my equity back it was 5x you know that I had to pay back and he said yes but he took it from 7 % to 0.7 % right he's like just give me 0.7 you know what I mean for all this and I'm like okay cool so um but that was written into your terms early on that you could do that or that was something that you just you just decided we were friends and I said I need that's some friends I need to take it back And he was like, he just respected that.

34:20Because was that out of you needing full control? What were the reasons behind that? It wasn't about control. It was about ownership in a different way. It was the culture. It was at a time where we had a music artist who had made a diss song, right? And he was like, this person owns, you know what I mean? Like, it was just like really, it was becoming an issue. Are you taking your business cues from your scroll? What is happening here? No, no, no, no. You were like a story I wrote got to me. Because I think that, I think when, because we service the black community primarily, that they're really big on ownership.

35:02Yeah. They're really big on ownership. And I think that I wanted to build in a way where I could maintain that, not for, not that I lost control because I didn't. You didn't. But to know that it was possible. And so right now, do you have other backers and partners? No. No. But you're thinking about it. Okay. Now I'm like, let me think about this. You know what I mean? But I mean, for the last 12 years, that was something that I was gung-ho about. But now I'm like, okay, let me think. Just to be honest, I'm in a place where I'm like, let me think about this. Well, I think that you have to because at a certain point, right, you're playing in a different league now.

35:41And in order to be competitive, you need the right cash. You need the right amount of money in your business to be able to play with the big boys. And I understand because at the end of the day, I think, listen, there's no one who's more about ownership than I am. But there's a difference between ownership and majority ownership. What you want is majority ownership. You want to have full control and the decision making power over what you're doing. And I think that what we need to do is get really smart about what it means to be able to take a little bit of money off the table. Nobody wants to be rich when they're 75, right?

36:10It's like you're doing a lot of work. So if you being able to take some money into the business allows you to take some money off the table and you to take the capital in order to grow and to be competitive in the big leagues, then why wouldn't you? And I think there's just we have to shift that misconception because it's unhelpful. And actually, it's not allowing a business like yours that serves the culture to be competitive and hit the big leagues. Okay so this is what I want to ask you Because I mean You know We should be switching Chairs right now Because I have a lot of questions You can ask me Any questions that you like So my philosophy I'm here for you My philosophy for 12 years Was like Could you build Through partnerships Without equity You know Investment Do you believe in that?

36:54Like could you Like through brand partnerships You mean or Like partnerships Like okay I partnered with I don't know Because right now We're working to partner With the big One of the biggest Touring companies To do a festival Right Through partnerships like that I think it heavily depends on your ambition. I look at you and I know nothing about your business plan. And if I were you, I'd be sitting here thinking I am the next BET. I am the next Essence. I'm going to have a TV channel. I'm going to have, you know, a book imprint. I'm going to have a podcast network. I'm going to open film studios.

37:25I'm going to be like Tyler Perry, like Oprah Winfrey. Absolutely. I'm like, ah, ah, ah. You're saying everything I want to do. This is it. In order to do that, you would need to raise money. Like the point is you look at everyone who's done what you want to do and each and every single one of them has raised at some point. That's true. So why would you be the outlier? And also like, what is bad about that? Like what happens if you like, let's just contextualize this for a second. Jeff Bezos owns about 6 % of Amazon. He's still the richest motherfucker in the world. Like who's worrying? Who's worrying where the other 94 % went?

37:59Do you know what I mean? So it's like, we got to get out of our own way sometimes. It's like to get somewhere, you got to give something. And it's really, really simple. Again, like we can't be obsessed with control because a hundred percent of nothing is still nothing. Right. Right. So it's like the ambition, it's ambition dependent. If you have a business where you're like, you know what, I've got 40 people. I live in the valley. I am extremely happy what I've built, where I'm going. And the natural trajectory of that based on the revenue that this business, you know, brings in is the life that I want to lead.

38:31Perfect. Fine. Amazing. But if your ambition is beyond that, then you have to do something different. Now, do you need to go and raise$50 million and dilute yourself to like a crazy place? Not necessarily. But if you wanted to raise$5 million or$10 million and keep the majority ownership in the control of your business, absolutely. You should do it. I agree with you. Now, I have, there's just one caveat, right? So, I do think that that is the smartest thing. And I think so many people, everybody tells me this every day. You need to just like, why are you doing this? Raise money, right? However, I've seen a lot of media companies.

39:10Let me ask you, though. In this climate, a lot of media companies have raised money, but they really don't know what the future of media is. And so a lot of them have gone bankrupt. You know what I mean? Because it's like they raise money to go in a direction that is murky. Where there's so much uncertainty. Yes. It's like, I want to raise money, but I want to know what's next. Yes. You know? Well, then you raise with the future in mind, right? Because traditionally, you might have been going to a more like-minded media company to raise the money. Someone who's done what it is you want to do. Whereas, like, what's to say that you wouldn't go and raise money in Silicon Valley and be part of a brand new AI-type platform that is the future?

39:52Right. Do you know what I mean? So to me, it's about, again, like, not all cash is created equal. and you are trying to get an influx of cash and you're trying to see into the future and understand what's happening or what the next steps are in your business. So I would go to those people and figure out if they see something in you and in what you've created that can bolt onto what they're doing and together you go like in the direction that you need to go. Do you know what I mean? I just think there's a lot of ways to, there's a lot of ways to think about investment. And I honestly believe that we get ourselves into such a really kind of like downward spiral when we think that what has happened to everybody else is going to happen to us.

40:36It's so much more about the vision. It's so much more about the allocation of capital. Like what do you plan to do with that money? Like what are your plans? Do you have great plans? And when you put all of those things together and you raise from the right person, what's to say that your journey would be like any of the others that you've Right. You create your own trajectory. Like you came this far. That's true. That is true. So this is like, you guys are watching. Like this is what needs to happen for sure. I mean, I know so little about your business, which is why we're going to get back on your business and talk about it more.

41:09But I definitely don't want to continue the narrative that is so prevalent in the culture that giving up anything means giving up everything. It's just not true. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. It's just not true. And I'm kind of like living proof of it. Yeah. No, it's for sure. I agree. For sure. I'm trying to remember where we were in your business trajectory. So at this point, you're kind of rethinking things in the business and you're going to have a lot of optionality because, you know, you guys are, you're out there. What you do is seen by everyone. It's pretty amazing. I saw that there was a little bit of a step change in the way you approached what you cover on the platform.

41:51that happened like maybe a couple of years ago and certainly in the last election cycle. For the most part, I think if you're someone who doesn't know the platform very well, you think gossip, you think celebrity and you think like stuff that maybe someone else wouldn't cover. So I want to ask you about editorial integrity. I want to ask you about like where, you know, where you draw the line and how you think about the business and what you do. Like, is there such a thing for you guys as a place where this is too low. Like this low is too low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I learned that over time. You don't understand, like when I started, I was 23.

42:28So I was very, I was fresh out of college. So I think I was very immature in the way that I saw influence. And so in the beginning, you know, it was kind of wild, but I had a lawsuit. You know what I mean? I got tapped on the hand a little bit. And then after that, I was like, you know what? Were you dying when that happened? No, because I was always prepared for, I'm a very like risk averse type of person. You know what I mean? So I was making sure that I had protected the business in a way that if something would happen like that, that I would be able to recover, right? So we were able to very easily recover.

43:03But at the same time, you know, it was during the time that Hulk Hogan was suing, what's that platform, Gawker, I think. Yes, yes. And so it was the worst time. You were like, whoo! Yeah, it was the worst time to be sued in that way. Right. And I was like, OK, no, especially in Cali. Right. And so after that, I learned I just was learning lessons. And then also the influence was growing. And I was like, yeah, these are real people like they're not avatars like they're real people, real life. And then I was starting to meet the people, you know, and hearing about the impact. And so we definitely started to change.

43:37But also I was getting older. And so I was like, gossip is cool, but it's not. There was other interests that I had. Like I was interested in politics and all different kinds of things. So in 2020, I think it was during the George Floyd, the audience was like, we want you to report on George Floyd and shut down all of the celebrity news. And I think one of the best things that we've done as a brand is we listen to the audience. And so we shut it down. And I'm like, but wait, my staff is not trained to, you know, report on social justice issues or politics or anything like that. These are showbiz writers.

44:13Yeah, these are showbiz writers, right? But I had to then, I had to hire investigative reporters and all of that. And then the election came and it was big. And so we had to report on that. And it really opened the door. I'll never forget when Barack Obama stepped into the shade room, right? And he was like, I think people started to see, hey, this is a platform that will influence, but also it's a very important audience that follows. Like 88 % of Black adults on Instagram follow the shade room. It's very - Wow, is that true? 88 %? 88 % of Black adults on Instagram follow the shade room. It's so potent in the community.

44:49So I think that that's when political candidates started to say well hey if we want to reach that audience we go straight here you know and so we went to the White House and we actually have an interview that's in the White House archive right now you know what I mean like that's insane we broke open those doors and you have journalists that actually sit in the press room at the White House right? yes we have which I think would be surprising to a lot of people yes I hired a journalist from ABC News a news anchor to come work for the Shade Room Justin Carter He's amazing. And so I think that that gave us so much legitimacy.

45:24It also helped us build our company, right? Because when advertisers started to see that, they're like, oh, no, this isn't the small brand, you know, Instagram blog that we thought it was. People are really taking this seriously. And so it was that diversification of news that was able to take us to a new stratosphere, I would say. So now that the shade room has a seat in the White House press room, what do you think the mission becomes? becomes and how are you shaping culture and politics? So that's an interesting question. I think if you would ask me that question in 2020, I would have said the mission was to, we wanted to kind of influence our audience to vote a certain way.

46:03You mean like reinforce democratic politics? Democratic politics. And the reason why was because I thought my audience were Democrats. I've always been of the belief that I want to reflect, I want it to be a mirror to culture. That's all I wanted to be. I never had any intentions of like influencing culture in one way or the other. I just wanted to be a mirror for them. And so I think when you don't when you just move off of intuition and you don't actually dig into data and analytics, you start to develop ideas that are not actually true. Right. And so I thought in 2020, all my audiences, they're Democrats.

46:35So, you know, we should push the Democrat agenda. That's it. And then over time we did analytics and we realized that a lot of the audience, unbeknownst to them even, have very conservative viewpoints. Like it was it was very like half and half. And so then I said, OK, now my goal is to step back and just provide information because I don't want to lean one way or the other. Right. But the problem with not leaning one way or the other is that both sides hate you. You know what I mean? Both sides hate you now because they don't feel like you're their ally on one side or the other. But really, we just developed a stance of like, I just want to provide as much information, truthful information to you so that you can come up with your own opinion.

47:20And I think that that is necessary in media, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, I'm English. I grew up with the BBC where it's agenda-less, right? They tell you what happened and there's no entertainment factor. There is no opinion. It just, it is what it is. It's utterly and totally and completely unbiased, or that's the way it's intended to be. So I think that, but I wonder for you where, like where you have these red lines, where have you created in the culture of your company? Like we do do this, we don't do this. This is too low. This is okay. Like how have you established those kind of goalposts?

47:57I think the goalposts were established through experience that we had to create what we call the Ten Commandments for the shade. And so we do have a Ten Commandment rule of things that we won't touch. And obviously we don't want to. What won't you touch? Oh, we still. Okay. There's a lot of girls that want to out players, you know what I mean? Or like celebrities out their sexuality. Right. Oh. And so. That's a hard line for you guys. Yes. Because we saw like, you know, people will really want to self-harm. Unintended consequences. Yeah. Unintended consequences. is we used to report on like bankruptcies and things of that nature.

48:35And after some time, like the audience was like, we really don't like this is this is too intrusive. Yeah. You know, people's finances, if they're, you know. So there's certain things that we don't do. We don't report like there's a level of privacy that we, you know, now if you're out on a boat on a yacht in Lake Como, you know what I mean? With your new boo, we're going to post that. Right. But there's a level of intrusiveness that we won't go anymore. Have you ever, is there a story or something that you've done that you're not proud of? Absolutely. Yeah, there's a couple of stories that I wasn't proud of.

49:07I think that media is so hard because it's a balance. I think once you're on the other side of media, you don't humanize the people on the other side. You get what I'm saying? Because it's a business, right? And so I have to constantly balance that and say, these are humans that I'm reporting on. And it's not that they just signed up for celebrity because that, I mean, there is a responsibility as a celebrity. You sign up for fame, but they're still human and they still have rights. You know what I mean? And they still have feelings and all of that. And so, like, for instance, I'll give you an example.

49:40Reporting on death. One thing I noticed is that like in the media, people are so eager to be the first to report on death. Because when you report on death, that is a big story and, you know, all eyes. Right. But this is somebody's family member. Right. And so that was something that I'm like, you know, we had to change with the audience. I mean, with my staff, I'm like, we don't have to be the first to report on death. Like, let's make sure that the family, let's talk to the family. Let's make sure that they know first. You know what I mean? This is not about breaking news. Yes. But that is something that is prevalent in media.

50:16It's like everybody wants to be the first and they'll do it before the family knows. Never even thought about that before. But yeah, of course, everybody rushes to be the first. Yeah, because you'll have the exclusive and everybody will source you. And then you're, you know what I mean? Totally. I mean, come on, when you think of TMZ and like Michael Jackson's death or Kobe's death, these are big stories for them, right? Huge. Yeah. And so as, I would say, as a founder of a media company, you do have to kind of check yourself a little bit. Like what is the impact of what I'm actually doing? And is it worth it?

50:47You know? And you decided that there's just certain hard lines that are not worth it. Yes, but that also is a business decision at the same time, because now, you know what I mean? Like if you're not there, you're not there. You're not there. You're not first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you make a decision. Do you ever get into like the comments and moderate what's happening in the comments and filter what's happening? We've tried to do that, but I think on our O &O, it's moderated. But when it comes to social media, like, come on. Like, social media is just like a, I mean, they say all kinds of things.

51:22You can go in anybody's comment. They could be doing a recipe and it'd be the most positive page. And people are like, oh, you didn't do, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter what it is. I think you can't regulate social media. Like, it's just too, I mean, we get millions of comments a month. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's no way that we will be able to regulate it. But we try. We put in the word filters and everything like that. We've tried to even make our content more positive. Like, you know, we have like a half and half. You know what I mean? Like, if it's if it's good, if it's too much like, you know, happening in the media, we'll be like, OK, throw some positivity in there, some funny posts, because we we understand that really it's about the energy of what people feel when they leave your site.

52:01Yes. If they go there, even if it's all the salacious tea, if they feel really down, you know what I mean? When they leave, then they're not going to come back. They're not going to come back because over time, I'm like, this makes me feel really bad. Totally. So we try to make you laugh and we try to bring, you know, all kinds of things in the mix so that it's not this just cesspool. Right. Totally. But that's over time that we've, you know, started to see that.

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55:15And so I'm like, you know what? We are the site that everybody goes to for the new trailers. Like, you know, Jordan Peele released something that come to us or whatever. Weapons was on our, every big movie, right? Color Purple, everything, you know, that's happening. So I'm like, we, our audience loves to watch trailers and see what the next new show is from our site. We need to then get into content and programming, right? So that's definitely something. You talked about the Tyler Perry thing. Well, yeah, like we want to do our own thing. We've helped build like other platforms that started from the ground up.

55:48And we've seen like a Zeus, you know what I mean? Where we were promoting it in the beginning, you know, and all these platforms. Now that's TV. Where they started from the ground up and became Zeus is such a big company now, right? Competitor with networks, right? Totally. And so I'm like, well, we can be able to start our own, right? So that's definitely something. Right now we have some partners. It's not officially out yet, but it will be soon. some really big partners. We're partnering with one of the biggest touring companies so that we could do our own conference, you know? Like, we want to get to our own, like you said, Essence Fest, Complex Con.

56:22We need to have another vertical, you know what I mean? Totally. That is off of digital. Well, especially when you've got such a community that love what you do and want to be together and they should be able to come together and connect. It feels to me like a total no-brainer. But how do you gravitate from what it was that you were known for, right? Being very gossipy and being this like salacious place to doing something that feels inherently positive. Because if you're going to go into a live touring type of concept, how do you take where you are today and bring that to life in a way that feels good to people?

57:00Well, I mean, I think about, I think it's about not losing the essence, right? So I'm not trying to be essence fest. No. I'll never be essence fest, right? What is our version of a conference look like? And it is going to be a little cheeky. It is going to, you know what I mean? Like, it's not going to be the same. You know, we have, it's going to be the celebrities that we report on. And like, you know, like think of like, what was it? BravoCon, how they did. Yes. Yes. It's going to be cheeky. It's going to be the same. It doesn't need to be like Jerry Springer. We don't need to throw chairs.

57:30No, no, we're not throwing chairs or anything like that. I get it. It's like, it's cheeky. It's a little salacious, a little tongue in cheek. You're going to get some revelations. Revelations. Yeah, I can see that. You know what I mean? But it's the idea that the shade room is so negative. Honestly, we're really one of the nicest. I know, honestly, we're really one of the nicest platforms out there. Well, I've read that you said, like, I've literally read every article of you. And, you know, and then I went on and I kind of like, you know, scrolled through. And I was like, yeah, she's still there.

57:58She's still in Salacious Land. I mean, yeah. I mean, like, what do you think? What was the story? There's a move on, you know, there's a move on from where it was for sure. Yeah. four or five years ago. But, you know, it's like, I look at the meat of the thing, right? It's like, I'm always going to, you know, like sell a lot of underwear and I'm always going to sell a lot of denim. And then there's all these other adjacencies and things that you do. But it's like, that is that and that is that. And this is this. And there's a part to me where I'm like, how do you get away from the core? I don't think we should.

58:28I don't think we should. I think that, you know, for a while I've tried to, but then I was like, wait, why? Like, obviously we need to balance it and be responsible with our influence. but people like to know the tea. Like they do. Everyone likes to know the tea. Everyone likes to know the tea. But I guess my question for you goes down to, like, how do you handle the criticism that says the shade room is actually tearing down the very community that it's there to serve? Because it's real criticism, right? It is. It is real criticism. And I think that it's criticism that I've take very seriously, right?

59:04And I think about that a lot. And then, but also I think it's not. So we did a focus group, right? and we polled our audience and we were like, okay, you know, tell us. And a lot of them were saying, yeah, we, you know, some were saying, yeah, we think you tear down the community. But then they were saying, but don't change, right? So it was like a little, they're like, we want the tea, we want this, right? And we - No, gossip is part of your DNA. Like the tea is part of the DNA. But I think that we have, we've done so much behind the scenes, right? To give back to the community. Like we have six scholarship endowments, you know, for African-American students.

59:39I mean, we have, we're building transitional housing programs and like water wells in Nigeria. You know what I mean? Like we've done so much with the money. 10 % of our money goes back to the community, but that's not enough, right? I don't know. Are we tearing down a community? I mean, is TMZ tearing down a community? Is Page Six tearing down a community? You think so? No, I think that this is a very, I'm nodding along to you going, this is a part of the media, right? And I think that it's been there for as long as anything. And you could look at, you know, legacy titles like Us Weekly or Star or like any of these things.

1:00:11Gossip, tea, shade, whatever you want to call it, has been part of what we have all, me included, love to read forever and ever. I think that social media takes it into an entirely new realm because it can be so pointed towards a person with an app. And then the comments and the way people have ingested that, like you can ignore a newsstand. It's hard when we're all living and breathing in social to ignore some of that stuff. And for me, it's been super positive, especially in the last election cycle, to see how you are navigating this shift. And I think it's been very purposeful and I think it's really noticeable.

1:00:47It's a reason that I'm so fascinated and interested in the growth of your platform and what you have the opportunity to build. And I think it's important that the step change comes, right? Because I think there are a lot of people, to your point, 88 % of black adults on Instagram are following your platform. Well, with that comes a hell of a lot of responsibility. And I think that it's all in the balance, right? It's all in this beautiful power that you have and how you choose to use that is ultimately it's your decision because you're the majority owner. So the change has to come, right? The change has to come.

1:01:19So the shift has to come. And I think that a part of that is by doing something else. You know what I'm saying? I think that we can't just keep doing, establishing new verticals, right? You get what I'm saying? I think that like, OK, what does content look like for us? What is a conference call look like for us? It has to feel like the shade room, but it has to be different. You know what I mean? And I think that diversifying the brand in that way is the best way to do it because I don't know any other way to do it. I don't know any other way to do it Is there a part of you that can feel trapped by the algorithm?

1:01:52Like you've got to stay in that land And in that model to be in the mix of what you're doing I feel trapped I feel like what's that box that, you know, the clown thing You know, I really want to come out of the box Like it's so, I'm bursting at the seams I want to come out of the box I want to build a bigger business that is more diverse I just feel like the shade room can be so much bigger than what it is You know what I mean? and I don't want to be in this. And honestly, you know what I think? I think celebrity news is getting old to people. Do you see yourself as redefining what serious journalism really looks like in your platform?

1:02:26I can't say I'm redefining it in the sense that not what serious journalism looks like. I think I'm redefining what the next iteration of journalism looks like, which I think journalism is now becoming something that's more in the people's hands versus people are no longer like trusting big traditional media companies anymore because of the opinions, because when you go to Fox, you know you're getting an agenda. Because when you go to CNN, you know you're getting an agenda. So people no longer trust legacy media and traditional journalism anymore. They want it more, they want it to be more privatized in a sense.

1:03:04You know what I'm saying? And so that's, I would say in that way, yes. You know, but I think it's shifting. I think people are tired of the same all and they want something new. They want independent media. They want citizen journalism almost. Yeah. I mean, that makes another sense. You know what I mean? And people are like going like... I can't go on that. That's just... I mean, it's just too much. It's too much. It's too much. You can't. No, it is too much. But people are enthralled by like... Yes, they are. ...getting their news from... They get their news from TikTokers that, you know, started, just opened a page and started.

1:03:37Like, they want something different. They really want something different. Yes. So talk to me a little bit about you, because I'm so fascinated at the lack of news and stories that's out there about you. Has that been purposeful in your own doing? I'm an introvert. I'm just an introvert. That's it. I'm just like, you know, I also I want to build businesses from behind the scenes. Yes. Not that I don't want to be out there, but I just I want to be known. I want my business to be known. That's what it is. I think it's really admirable because I just think for somebody like you, who's clearly very talented when it comes to social and building a brand on social that you haven't chosen to put yourself more front and center.

1:04:18It's very it's just interesting at this in this day and age. But everybody tells me I should because they're like that's smart. You can build a brand alongside the brand. I do think that people who do that are very smart. I just don't know. It doesn't interest me. I like I like being behind the scenes. You know, like I do. I just, I do. I like going to the supermarket with a bonnet. You know what I mean? Or sweats. I think for hundreds and years and decades and however long people have gone and created incredible businesses and we didn't know their name. And there's absolutely no reason that you can't do that now.

1:04:53In fact, I think it's probably the smartest thing to do. There's no reason that you need to be front and center, especially when you have a business like yours where it might not befit you to do that, right? You want to be able to do what you're doing and be behind the scenes. I just think it's an interesting choice. Is it a choice that you're happy you made? Absolutely. Every day. Yeah, I'm very happy. Nobody knows who I am. I'd literally go anywhere. Like the other day, just yesterday I was at a restaurant and got a, you know, like nobody knows who I am and it feels so good. Yeah, I love it.

1:05:24Yeah. I really love that you love it. Talk to me about, I wanted to understand like the internal dialogue. So when something happens at the shade room and like if the backlash ever feels personal, is there ever a time where you're like, oh, like Angelica versus the shade room? Is there ever a time when that gets confused? It has felt personal, but you know, I've always felt like a hypocrite, right? Because I would get so angry, like what, what? Like, cause they'll, they come up with lies about me too, you know, about my intentions or, you know, something like that. And I'll be like, I can't believe that, you know?

1:06:02And, but then I think about it And I'm like, this is what I do, right? I have to accept everything that comes with it. And I have to accept that people have opinions. I build a platform for people to have opinions. So if they have opinions, you know what I'm saying? I just have to tell myself, like, you can't be hypocritical in that way. You built a platform for people to have opinions no matter how brutally honest they are. And you stand by that. So allow those opinions for yourself. So, I mean, there have been times when celebrities have gotten mad and I've been posted on, you know, bigger platforms than mine.

1:06:33Like, you know what I mean? And it's been crazy, but I have to, I just take it in stride. But it's not easy. Like, I have those nights where I'm, like, crying to sleep. You do. Oh, absolutely. Because I wonder, like, I always question the impact of what I've built. You know what I mean? And now I'm like, well, I've built something really big and amazing. And it has opened a lot of doors for not only just companies that come behind the shade room, but all in the same vein, right? But also like breaking into the White House or even just the people don't understand that like there's been artists who have been discovered on the shade.

1:07:11Yes, no doubt. Yeah. It's like to take the culture and bring it to a mainstream level where you don't have to wait to be on people or, you know, all these things like you can be on this site fairly easy. Right. You know what I mean? And get the same type of exposure, if not more. Right. So that has done a lot. But I have to balance that. And I do, I want to say it's like the only source of sadness. Wow. It's the main source of sadness. If I have sadness, it comes from that. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. That's deep. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about leadership style, because you do have this huge, you know, influence.

1:07:51You got 40 staff. What are you like as a leader? Who is Angelica the leader? I'm a cookie leader. actually. I actually think everybody's crazy that has a business. I'm going to be honest with you. You have to be somewhat crazy, right? But I'm very kooky. I'm the type that'll be like, I had a dream. I had a dream that we should do this and let's do it. And everybody's like, okay, let's follow her dream. She had a dream. I'm very like that, right? Because you're an intuitive? I'm an intuitive, but that's a problem. I mean, I would say the intuition got me this far, but at this point, I need to get into the data and the analytics.

1:08:26And so that's what I've done. Well, you need to couple both. Yeah. Right. Because I think that again, as, as a woman, I really believe that it's such an amazing superpower that more women are attuned to that we have, you know, gut instinct, intuition, like whatever you want to call it. Right. I think that you need to use your gut and your intuition because at the end of the day, your gut feeling, your gut intuition is a collective and a collection of everything that you've learned along the way, right? It's stored memories that are coming back and allowing you to make great decisions. And when you can couple that with the data and the analytics and the experience and other great people around you, like that's when the magic happens.

1:09:07So I don't want you to get rid of that at all. I feel like you just have to put the two things together. You still need to come in with your dreams. Just go get someone to go check it quickly out. Exactly, right, right. Is my dream dreaming correctly? No, no, no, yeah. My dreams actually have gotten me so far in life. as far as like decisions I've made and everything. However, now coupling the data with the intuition has shown me sometimes my intuition is wrong in the sense that I may think something that is not true, right? For instance, we went into politics, but now we're seeing with the data, oh, they actually probably want you to scale back on politics.

1:09:44You get what I'm saying? Like that, these things I'm like, okay, this is data sometimes overall you can have intuition, but sometimes data will teach you new things about an audience that you never knew. And that, you know what I mean? And it's teaching me things about them. Like I didn't know that they like fitness. You know what I mean? Like I didn't, I wouldn't know that, you know, or I don't know that they're really car enthusiasts. Like what? I wouldn't have thought that, right? So these are things that come from me pairing the two. It's like, I'm learning things that I didn't know. And who's helping you with leadership and decision-making at the sort of highest level of the shade room?

1:10:16So I've built like a executive C-suite. You know what I mean? That's helping me. I have advisors that help me. What does your C-suite look like? I just hired a VP of development. I have a head of revenue. I have a head of content. I have HR, you know, director of human resources. I have directors of sales, you know, and things like that. But I'm hiring a CBO, by the way. I love. I'm hiring a CBO. I love. And who gave you, who advised you on how to structure the company? Or did you just put that together? that that's what you'd seen, that's what you know. Advisors, I will go to like my advisors and say like, what do you think I need?

1:10:57But then also like the director of HR would say that. And then I would hire some people, like I had recently hired a COO. They came in and they were like, I think you need a CBO. You know what I mean? It's sad, right? So it's kind of like, you know. It's a collection of the expertise that you bring in. And the expertise that I bring in. But that makes so much sense to me. And then from an advisor point of view, because I feel like it's something that founders always struggle with. Who do you listen to? Who is around you that you've decided to make part of your council that when you've got a big decision to make, you go and speak to?

1:11:29It's a lot of actually people who are in the same industry. The competitors? Yeah, it's actually some competitors. Yeah, it's some competitors. Because they don't see me as a competitor. They see me as a potential partner. You know what I mean? Like, we should partner, you know? But like I know Rich Dennis from Essence. I know Dottavio from Revolt TV. You know what I mean? Like we have conversations and we want to partner with each other in many ways. Yeah, I'll talk to the people who have done it and have done it differently, who've done what I want to do or who did who made mistakes that I don't want to make.

1:12:02You know what I mean? Or whatever. I'll talk to all different kinds of people. But then I also talk to people from Silicon Valley like Bryce and, you know, investors who will tell me, hey, this is what I think you should do. So it's really like a group of people that are in all kinds of industries that I advise.

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1:15:28I want to ask you about money, I guess. Like, how do you think about the money and has your relationship changed with money since you started the business? What do you mean? I'm trying to understand, like, because you started this from nothing, right? On your own. And you've only taken a tiny amount of money into the business. So as you become a profitable company and you grow and you have 40 staff, you start to make a little bit of money. What's your relationship to money like? Like it's still frugal, which is the problem. So my relationship with money is I think because I did study accounting and I was a little bit in accounting that I'm very like I'm good with money in the sense that I know how to take money and make it grow.

1:16:09Right. And so it's so we've been able to bootstrap this whole time and our books are clean. You know, I mean, we never had a red quarter. You know what I mean? So I'll make sure of that. Right. You really were an accountant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've never. You were ticked and tied. But how useful was that as like the background? It was useful. You starting the business. It was very useful, actually, because it was how we were able to survive. We survived through COVID. You know what I mean? We survived through this media exodus. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? So it was very helpful.

1:16:39But at the same time, I think there needs to be a change. Everything can't be so, you know, like I need to know. What do you mean? You're like bean counting? And you're like, what are you like? I'm just making sure that, like, before I make an investment, it has to be calculated down to the teeth. Because I need to almost know that I'm going to make my money back. That has to change in the sense that I need to go bring back that childish girl from back then who was just trying things. You know what I mean? A little bit of considered risk-taking. Yeah, I always think you do need to make a calculated risk, but there's no kind of investment that's for sure.

1:17:12Where do you think that comes from? I don't want to go back to the hood where I came from. I was like, yeah. I think that's where it comes from, which is a bad mindset to have. But I think that happens to a lot of people that come from nothing is that you don't want to go back to nothing at any point. Right. And so because of that, you're like, I'm going to be very responsible with, you know, the money and all of that. But I think that you have to gamble. I just think you have to gamble. You do. I wonder, do you see the shade room as like a wealth building tool for yourself? or do you think about it much more in the sense of like redistributing power back to like or a platform to redistribute the power back in media?

1:17:54I see it as a platform to redistribute the power back in media because I think I've made enough to where if I really wanted to go to Thailand and disappear, I can, right? But I think that now I want to build something bigger for the culture. You know what I'm saying? I want to build something bigger. I'm like, I have the opportunity to do something really big and different and I want to do that. And I think, again, the reason why I was so frugal was because I was using my own money. Yeah. Yeah. True. And you have every right to be frugal. How are you measuring success at this point? Is it followers?

1:18:25Is it influence? Is it revenue? What does that look like? I don't think it's followers anymore. I think now it's going to be expansion. Like, okay, were you able to expand into other verticals? Were you able to establish roots outside of digital media? You know what I mean? Like, were you able to build TSR Studios? Right. And then also revenue. Yes, that's always going to be the revenue is always going to be an indicator of success. But then also impact. Now, that's big for me. What's the impact of it? Because you got to be able to sleep, even though I know some people that are like, I sleep very well.

1:19:01You know what I mean? In their Cruella DeVille outfit. I care. Right. I care. It affects me. I'm very like, you know, I feel it, you know, so I definitely want to be able to sleep peacefully at night. And so I want to make sure that I have an impact that's worthy of reverence is what I'm trying to say. That's a great word, reverence. I love that. I mean, obviously you started as a disruptor, but is there a part of you that would like to be one of the legacy media brands? No. I don't want to be a legacy media brand. And there's nothing against them. I love them. But I want something different. I want to be a disruptor.

1:19:38I want to disrupt media again And I want to do something completely different I mean, well, when you say legacy media I want to be the new legacy media There you go When I say, I mean, I do want to be like the new blue chip Like in the way that we think You know, truthful or not For a long time, you know, I'm going to talk about the BBC Because it feels like it takes it out of America It's like, you know That is and was an institution That we relied on You would watch the news at 10 you would watch your programming and there was some element of like you were like if it comes out of this place then there is a level of integrity to it there's a level of truthfulness to it and even when it's just pure entertainment there's just levels to this shit you know and I wonder like do you want to be like a blue chip brand name that's like up there in life yes 1000 % I want the shade room to be you know how when you hear when you hear CNN you never think about when it'll never be no You just think seeing it is going to be forever, right?

1:20:39That's how I want the shade room to be. I want it to be like, oh, the shade room is just here to stay. It's just never going anywhere, right? That's what I want it to be. I feel like that is where you're headed right now. Really? Yeah, I do feel like that's where you're headed because I think that there's a clear step change. And listen, I think with all things, there's so much out there. There's such a lot of noise. And what you feel has real cut through. And that's a very, very difficult thing to get. What you have is a very distinct point of view and a very distinct brand. Like it, love it, love it.

1:21:14Whatever you think about it, you think about it. Yes. And that's all we can ask for right now, right? You want to be memorable and you want people to know that you matter. And when you have those things, how you transition, how you start to reposition yourself, that's up to you and how good a founder you are and how good how well you take care of that community because they're listening now you've got to figure out what they want to hear exactly and I want to figure out what they want next even before they know it that's the hard part you know what I mean like what do they want next because I know they want something that I feel intuitively I feel intuitively that they're like the whole landscape they're like we need something a shift but what they want that's what I'm working on like what is it that you want Do you think or do you want The Shade Room to be remembered as entertainment or as a newsroom?

1:22:05I want The Shade Room to be known as a media conglomerate. Do you think that people criticize The Shade Room more harshly because it's Black-owned? Absolutely, of course. This happens to every Black company, right? And I would say, like, when you look at, like, a Tyler Perry and how people criticize him, you could have Adam Sandler, and Adam Sandler could make really funny, crazy, comedic movies, and nobody cares that he doesn't have an Oscar winning movie because he didn't need to. You know what I mean? But when it's Tyler Perry, it's like, oh, he makes these movies. They have the bad wigs and you know whatever.

1:22:39And the people are like, yeah, shut them down because there's not enough representation. So when you don't have enough of something, the few that make it to that level, you have strict parameters on how they should represent you. So I understand it, right? Because there's not enough. If there were 30, if there were 50 black media companies, they wouldn't care what the shade room was doing. There could be. That's why when you look at other communities like a page six or people, nobody cares what they're doing because they have people. They also have CNN and you know, like they have so many. You could go to whatever platform you want to go to.

1:23:14Right. But with us, we only have a few. So because of that, there is heavy. There's there's heavy scrutiny on each one because there's only few representations. Do you let that impact your decision making? It does influence me, I won't lie. It has an influence on me. But at the same time, again, like if Tyler Perry let it impact him, he wouldn't be Tyler Perry. I can't become Essence. I can't become, you know, Ebony Magazine. I just can't do it, right? But I take it into consideration for sure because, like I said, I have to sleep, you know, at night. But I wonder how that looks like for me and for this company.

1:23:51and what is the way in which we'll address that in our own fashion. But then I'll also have to really admire what we built and who we are. Like there is a place for us. There's a place for a sexy red, but there's also a place for, I don't know, who's, you know, a conscious rapper. You know what I mean? I don't know. Like, you know what I mean? You could have Chica and you could have sexy red and you can, you know what I mean? Like everybody should not be molded into one representation, right? And I think that's the problem, but I understand where it comes from. It just comes from scarcity. And when you're benchmarking, because you spoke so much about the competition and who you look at and other brands, are you looking at just the Black-owned media or are you looking at a full spectrum of what's out there?

1:24:36Do you benchmark your company against just those in your immediate space? No. I look at a full, yeah, range of companies for sure. I'll look at BuzzFeed. I'll look at, I'll even look at pages. I'll look at all of them. I'll look at every, you know, I'll even look at different kinds of companies. Like Twitter to me is a competitor. And I know that sounds really weird, but I think Twitter is a competitor because it's a news platform. You mean X? Oh, X. Yeah, whatever. We'll never call it X. That's the worst WeBrand. We'll never call it X and we'll never call it Meta. That's the worst WeBrand I've ever seen.

1:25:05Nobody, we completely just ignored it. No, it's still Twitter and Facebook. Shut up. But it's a news company. It's a news company. Really, it is. It's a news company. It's the global town square. It is. Everybody should look at that. Every news company should look at Twitter as a competitor. You have to. Yes, you have to. Also, especially when you start to think about breaking news and giving voice to a community. Exactly. Okay. So if you could fast forward, let's say 20 years from now and be in your dream position, what does it look like? I would have a studio that rivals Hollywood Studios. You know what I noticed?

1:25:42Okay. When we talked about like what those next things that the audience wants, I think that we went, there was this era in Black culture where we had the Cosbys, we had Moesha, we had so, we had so many. Sister, sister. Sister, sister. Oh. We had so much. A different world. So many. Oh my gosh. It was like the golden era for Black content. And I think that when Flavor of Love came, you know what I mean? Not to say, and I honor that era too, because it was amazing. But we entered into like a reality TV space that, and we took away those shows. We took away that content and those movies that we used to have.

1:26:21And, um, and... God, what was the last one? I mean, Black-ish, maybe? I loved, I loved Black-ish. Yeah, Black-ish, Black-ish for sure, yeah. Always cute and family-ish and, you know, I loved it. Girlfriends. Girlfriends. It was that era. You know, we didn't have that in England, so I only watched Girlfriends like four or five years ago when I moved to America. And I was like, what was this? And why did I miss out? Yeah, but it really had... not having Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, like you could see the cultures change with reality TV in the sense that now reality TV evolved. We have to love and hip hop now.

1:26:55Then it evolved to baddies. Angelica, are you telling me that the shade room lady wants to pivot into wholesome American black programming? Is this what you're saying? Is this what's happening? I'm saying I want to pivot into good television, good black content. You know what I mean? Not necessarily go back to like like Fresh Prince of Bel-Air or anything like that, but really good content. You know what I mean? That is like thought-provoking or, you know, just interesting. You know, and I think people are doing it. Like when you look at Forever on Netflix. Totally, totally. You saw the vibe. Everybody was loved it.

1:27:30You know what I'm saying? Because it gave us a taste of something that we haven't had in so long. I want to make good content is what I'm trying to say. So that's what I want to do. I also want to have huge festivals. You know what I mean? For the community that, because I feel like we've lost so many recipes, like even in just in community period. Like when's the last family reunion? Like family reunions are kind of like dead now. You know what I mean? Like all of the like weddings, you know what I mean? Like, you know, all of that. And so I'm just saying like, I want a community presence. You know what I mean?

1:28:03That is consistent year after year. I love how Essence has been doing their thing for the longest. You know what I mean? I love seeing Afrotech, you know what I mean? Be this yearly thing. And so I definitely want to have that. And then, yeah, I want to be the source of news. I think it's so many areas we are not able to be the actual direct source because we just don't have the access. And so I want to be that as well. And so, yeah, in 20 years, I just want to be known for building one of the biggest media companies, one of the biggest studios ever. it's a humble girl I mean listen you got us all hooked I have no doubt you can do it all over again I'm really excited to meet you and I think it's really incredible and impressive to hear your story because I knew so little about you and I think you are wholly inspiring it's really impressive what you've been able to build and that you've done it basically all on your own with very very little outside help And I'm really excited.

1:29:05I will be here cheering for you at the end of a phone if you want to phone me and ask me something. Oh, no, I definitely want it. We definitely need to exchange info. I'm here for the questions, for all the things. Because you inspire me. That's very kind of you. Honestly, you inspire me. Like, you represent something that, like, wow, not many people get there. You know what I mean? Like, I've seen so many. Like, it almost feels limiting in the area. You know what I mean? Like in the area, like you'll see, like you have reached a stratosphere that not many people get to go. And so me walking through here and seeing this and like, wow, women are, you know what I mean?

1:29:46At the forefront of this and it's beautiful and it's big. And it's like, to me, I'm inspired. I'm going to go home and be like, wow. Thank you. It's very, very kind. And that's why this whole platform is really important. And it's really important that what you do and what I do and everything in between is shared so that we can learn from each other and we can put it out there. And it's going to give so many people the ideas and the impetus and just the knowledge. Yeah. Right. That's all you need. Sometimes you just need to know it's possible and you need to hear a little bit about it so that you can go off and understand that these spaces are there for you too.

1:30:25So a couple of rapid fire questions for you. The first one is what's the first thing that you do in the morning? Oh, it's bad. Oh, it is? Jump straight on your phone and look at what's happening. I do. It's so bad. It's so bad. I need to stop and then get on the scale because I'm on a weight loss journey. And my, I got the, I got the, it's the TikTok scale that is really needs to be banned. Every time you get on it. What do you mean you're a TikTok scale? It's from TikTok. You know, I'm all on TikTok. But it needs to be banned because it goes, it turns green when you lose weight and purple when you gain weight.

1:31:01So I'm addicted to it. But those are the top two things I do when I wake up in the morning. It's bad. Oh, Lord, no. We've got to change that, can't we? No, no, no, no. We're going to change it. She manifests and meditates in the morning. That's what we're doing. Okay. I'm so glad you were honest. Don't tell me the same shit at night. What is the last thing you do before you go to sleep? Oh, I pray. Okay. Yeah. That's better. It's a better ending to the day than the star. Do you pray for the weight loss? Oh, yeah. No, yeah, yeah. She's like, no, a real prayer. A real prayer. No, I actually do pray for weight loss sometimes, yeah.

1:31:35Fair enough. I think that's very honest. Yes. It's true. What is a book that changed your life? Ooh, Leadership Pain. It's a weird book because it's a pastor who talks about pastors. But he said, according to him, the hardest roles in the United States, right, is a university dean. Oh, right. A pastor and a CEO of a hospital. Wow. Yes. I can understand. He's probably not wrong. Yeah. So, but he talks about leadership pain and like leadership. And so from that perspective, and it's really interesting. Okay. That's one that we'll check out. Who's the one person you'd never post about and why? The one person I never post about?

1:32:18You would never post about? Ooh. I would never? Is there anyone off limits? Oh, you mean like now? Oh, I don't post Cardi, but that's because she told, I mean, I'm good with her. Like, we just, we just can't get along. Like, our platforms don't gel, so we just don't post Cardi. You just don't post Cardi? Yeah, I mean, we had a conversation and I was just like, yeah, we just decided like, okay, we won't post you anymore because it's too hectic. She's loud, you know? Like, she'll go back and like, You know, it's just, we just, we just like, we haven't posted her in like years. Do you feel like you can see, like, did she not want you to post her?

1:32:56Yeah, she didn't want us to post her, but we decided not to post her as well. Cause we were just like, it's, it's better like this. You know what I mean? Less headache. Respectful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. What's one misconception about the shade room you wish would go away forever? Hmm. That we tear down the community. I like that. I don't like that. I wish that would go away. But I got to do the work, I guess, you know. Fair. What's something that you valued when you were starting The Shade Room that you no longer value? Hmm. Being first. I still want to be first, but not in every category.

1:33:35I have a feeling you learned the hard way. I did. I did. Fair enough. Yeah. As long as you learn, that's all that matters, babe. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Bailey.

1:33:50If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Rees-Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren LaGrasso, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker.

1:34:25Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Holman. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schaaf, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me.