Aspire with Jessica Alba: Why It’s Time to Break Up with Perfection

25:31And then also be able to fill in what you're not good at, you know, and that you can become a whole. And you felt like you got this with that guy. I did because I knew I wanted to direct a consumer business. because if I would have gone with a retailer in order to get scale, it's hard to, so, you know, we were doing 17 products across three different product categories. And so even just those SKUs, you have to make a, there's a limited amount of SKUs that you even make that they'll even do a run of. So say it's 2 ,000 or 10 ,000, right? So then where are you warehousing it? Who's going to distribute it?

26:11What shelf is it going to be on? And if you go with a retailer, they're going to say, we only want this one thing. We'll see if it works. And then maybe we'll open up to the other stuff. And I'm like, no, no, this concept is a lifestyle. This concept is bigger. If I'm just doing a laundry detergent, or if I'm just doing one shampoo, that's not going to solve for the issue here because it's multiple assaults to your immune system from these chemicals that are in several different products. So you were trying to sell from the outset, like a lifestyle, like this is an alternative and you need the full thing.

26:46All these different touch points of your life where you can be exposed to these chemicals that you don't need to be exposed to. And so help, here's your sort of baseline needs met. And did this partner, was he a good partner for you? Was this someone that you were like, this is what I need at this time. He was great. I think I was a little disillusioned because then he brought in someone else to be more of the operations president person. And so in total, it was the four of us. And I thought all of us were in it for the long game. I thought all of us were building some, a legacy brand that our kids could be proud of.

27:27I didn't realize that two of them were much more short-term thinkers and much more, let's raise as much capital with the least amount of dilution as humanly possible and take money off the table as you go. And that was more of the business model than actually building the business. And do you think that that was just something that you didn't understand or it wasn't transparent? It wasn't transparent and I didn't understand it. I didn't understand that people could have different ideas about or strategies on how they're going to launch a company. Like some people are just two and a half years in and out, three max, and then onto the next and onto the next.

28:11And that's kind of what they do. And that wasn't very clear to me. I think it's a great lesson though. And one of the things that whenever I invest in a new project or I start a new thing, I'm always very transparent about what it is that I'm trying to do. And I'm also trying to understand, because again, not every founder has the same idea that everybody wants to build something and take it public. Some people are like, I just want to like pay my mom's mortgage and have like a really nice, comfortable life. And I'm like, that's fine too. But aligning those things is easier said than done. And you don't know what you don't know.

28:42And I think, especially when you get into a business like honest, where it's very purpose driven, you imagine that you're all in it for the same good, right? It's all like we're trying to solve something here. We're trying to do something better for our kids and for humanity and other different people have different agendas. Yeah. And that wasn't, it's hard to get there. And it wasn't clear until sort of the end of that journey and really knowing that I needed to get a new management team in place for the next phase of the company, which was really to go from a straight up direct to consumer business to a more CPG with traditional CPG.

29:21Traditional wholesale. Yeah. And traditional capabilities as far as like sourcing operational capabilities. So we really needed our like raw material sourcing. We needed our chemists having a lab in house and being able to have the supply chain and the operations on lock is, I would say, step one, two and three of importance, then it allows you to scale and deliver on a consistent basis, the promise of the brand without that. It's very difficult. It must be impossible. Yeah. When you, um, so when you're in this situation where they're going out, they're raising a lot of money, like how were you able to keep a grip with what you were doing?

30:03Or were you even able to? It was a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of gripping. And I think I didn't sleep for over seven days a week. I didn't sleep for a long time, maybe 10 years. Because I guess coming from where you came from, that hits in a different place. It hits in a different place. You have a different relationship with money. I have a different relationship with money and I have a different relationship with success. I don't have safety nets and I had the vision of what this could be and it's so pure. And so excellence is my like bottom. I start at excellent and then it just goes from there.

30:45And so I have - Did you feel like coolness were being cut? I believe that not everyone operates with excellence or the same level of attention to detail that I do. Everything matters to me. Every detail is important. And it's just not that way with a lot of people. And I would look at it as like, oh, you want to fight today? Like I, every day I was like, oh, we're fighting. I'm ready for this. And then I had to learn over the years that it didn't mean that they wanted to fight me or they were necessarily trying to challenge me, they just aren't even there. Yeah. They operate from a different base level.

31:26Just a totally different base level. And I felt like, oh, I'm not smart because I didn't go to business school. I realized how smart I am. Yeah. Nothing to do with it.

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33:22so as you start on this like I guess like the journey of having these partners and changing like the shape of the business where did your role go like how did you fit into that new dynamic of where the management was at I think I allowed the world to believe that my business partner came to me and hired me to be the face of the brand, similar to how he did with Kim or similar to how he did with Robert Shapiro, because he did LegalZoom with Robert Shapiro. And I was like, no, I was the one that came up with the idea. And I tapped him to join me. It took me like three years to get there though, because he had a fancy education.

34:03Like he had a law degree. Like I just felt again that imposter syndrome and it it wasn't until a few circumstances where shit hit the fan and there no one was looking at anybody but me and it was your name's on the door you're the my name is on the door I'm the face and the if these people don't have their ish together no one's going to suffer but me because no one knows them no one knows no one cares so I was like okay so then I stepped into my power in a different way. And I was like, okay, now that I realize I'm the only one who's me and this business, right? It was like, we're one. And I saw the wholeness and the purity of that relationship.

34:48Then it was just like, who are the players that are going to help take this to the next stage that it needs to be? And we're just putting the business first. And I don't care about ego and I don't care about any of this other foolishness, including my own, because my own ego was telling me I wasn't good enough. Yeah. And so I had to throw that aside. This is an amazing lesson, I think, specifically for female founders, because there is this idea that somebody always knows better than you, that maybe you don't have, you know, like you said, I'm not so good at Excel. You're like, yeah, but it's like, you know what you do know.

35:17But also if you put any like logic or common sense of anything in front of me, like I can rip through it. I process. Yeah. I figured out, I processed quickly. So it's, it's not brain surgery. Well, it's, but it's also a special founder mentality. This was your baby. This was your idea. Nobody can see it and have the vision like you would. But I think it's very interesting that in your position, you would imagine that there is like this man or someone that would have and could have known better than you. I also really appreciate and love the science. I love these different business models. And I loved thinking about these concepts of like, what type of management team can take this vision to this next stage.

35:59Do you need a COO? Do you need a CFO, CEO, president? Maybe, maybe not. Do you need a CIO or a CTO? Is it more important to have a technology person? How did you navigate those decisions? Or an innovations person, you know, who do you have? And you can only have so many people in C-suite. Then you have your general counsel, which is very important. Very important. We all You need him. And you need your head of HR who's going to keep everyone happy. And so I learned as I went and I learned about all these different business models. And I asked a lot of questions. So I would like meet Sheryl Sandberg at a business conference.

36:38And I would just say, talk to me about infrastructure. Like, you know, in your mind that something needs to change. Like, how do you go about it? And how do you deal with the board versus the management team? And what if the management team, the business has outgrown the management team? Then what? Which always happens. And so it always happens. And that's like a good problem to have. Yeah, it's a great problem to have, but hard to solve. Hard to solve because there's a lot of like relationships, there's ego. People are not always in for the best of the business. They are in for the best of themselves.

37:08And so to navigate, so delicate. And then I'd sit down with Diane von Furstenberg and be like, how do you deal with, you know, certain people that aren't necessarily aligned with you? When you're like, no, no, I need this to be like that. Oh, Diane will tell you. No, she didn't. She did. She'll tell you. And then I asked Tori Birch. And then I asked Ariana Huffington. But you went around, you found these women and you were like, I'm going to ask any question. I asked, I would, I would get three questions. I would never take up more than 15 minutes of their time. I would write down the questions that I had for them.

37:39And I forced them to mentor me. They didn't want to. Melody Hopson as well. Like, I just was like, I don't have mentors. No one to really, that really looks like me out here in these streets. and so I just have to force them. And then I would also ask guys, you know, because I'm like, what's the difference in how they operate? And there's a difference. Oh, there's a difference. They're like, I just told them. And I'm like, oh yeah, tell them to go to hell or tell them to do this or tell them to whatever. If they don't agree with you, if they behave this way, it's unacceptable. And I'm like, yeah, no, it's so different for women.

38:14We have to be really strong and capable, but then also really nice and friendly. Well, the expectation is very different. Yeah. My question is really, as you start to meet all of those very accomplished women and speak to men, how did you thrash out your own unique leadership style? And did you feel the pressure to be a kind, empathetic female leader? I learned my softness much later in my journey, because like I said, in the beginning, I'm like, you want to fight me. That's why you're not listening to me. Like we're, this is, this is, let's go. And I always thought it was a very combative relationship with people when they wouldn't just, when they second guess me all the time and they needed to always have five points of data to back up everything that I said.

39:05Yet if other people said something, they would just do it if they were a dude. And I was just like, oh my God, that's so annoying. I'm like, oh my God, I'm so irritated. And so then I would just get, I'd spiral and then I would just, then I would just fire off like, and then that overwhelms people. So then I had, and then they would only give me 20 minutes in meetings and to make 85 million decisions. And then if I had any feedback, they were like, oh no, it's at stage three. Then we won't, then we won't make the launch. Well then why are you bringing me in now? Yes. You should have brought me in six months ago.

39:41Yeah, when it was still in like the first phase one. So. Taking you back. So frustrating. I learned about MPD, new product development processes. I learned about processes, who gets handed what, at what stage. I learned about, I learned about, I mean, I went to business school by creating and building a business. Which I think is the only way. I think so. It's really interesting. I don't know the other way. Yeah, I think you can have a concept of how to build a business and you can learn about them and blah, blah, blah. It's so different when you deal with people. Yes. Because people have emotions and emotions are not logical.

40:26And business conceptually is logic and math. But real business in real life is emotion and relationships. And it's all people. And it's all about people. It's all about people. And it's very different. And how to navigate that is an art form. And so I don't know if I've been the most nurturing, warm hug. I think I've been more of like a good time. Inspiring probably because I have big ideas and I can come up with alternative, solid solutions quickly. Like I love a challenge. Give it to me. I love a debate. Bring it. And I think people aren't used to someone like me being able to be that way. But then on the same side, I also just really like getting mushy with people and going deep on emotions and learning about their journey and like what makes them tick and like, why are you here?

41:26I know you're working in said department, but like, what's your home life like? And I want to talk about it. No, and it's important because you need to be able to get the best out of your people and having some understanding, but it's just difficult to draw those lines. I also play people for a living. And so I have this anthropologist sensibility. So I want to go in and learn. I want to go in. I'm like, so are you a cat person? Oh, you have two. Okay. Oh, and you have a roommate and your roommate's allergic to cats. Tell me more, you know? And I bet your parents didn't let you have cats. You're like, I've got you down.

42:00I know exactly who this lady in HR is. Yeah, it's great. Exactly. That's amazing. And so I think I can, I'm not. And so I think I never fit the corporate bill. I'm not, I'm not a corporate person. And so it was interesting to kind of be in that corporate, more traditional environment for such a long time. Because you really did build a big corporate company. It's very middle of the road, very corporate, very traditional in many, many ways. How many people were you at the height? I think it was 600. Wow. A lot of people. And this is like warehousing and 3PLs and all those things. All of the things.

42:39Yeah. But it was a big corporate company and you were really at the helm of that. I think around 200 is like a, 250 is like a good amount, but still a lot. Well, everyone always has their comfort levels. I always say I love it at five. I like 20 max. 20, you know everyone's name. You know everybody, you know everyone's cat's name. Holiday parties are fun. It gets a lot less fun after 20. I can say that. I agree. 20 is my, like, if I could build something tomorrow, I would never have more than 20 people really at the helm. So what do you think your biggest learnings were from those early days? No more than 20 people.

43:19You're like, okay, no more than 20 people. 20 people, HR, a CFO right away. Right away. Right away, yeah. That is my thing. I think HR CFO would be my first two hires. And then an ops person. Because I don't know what kind of business I'm creating next, but those feel really important. Because for me, it seems like you're the type of person, you know exactly what you want, but you need the right people around you just to shape it up. Shape, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And make sure the numbers make sense and they continue to make sense. And tell me before they stop making sense. Don't tell me after the fact, because that gets on my dang nerves.

43:57Totally. Yeah. Like let's get in front of it. Like let's hold hands. Like we're not being precious about this concept. Do you think that you had a good understanding when you were out raising all of this money of where that was going to take you? Well, I think the way the business was built was in the digital first kind of business model is a different business model. It's a growth model. It's not about profitability. No, it's not about profitability. So having to take a company from a totally growth mindset and move it into a profitable mindset with a started with strong tech capabilities to a strong CPG capabilities.

44:37I mean, it literally transformed into a completely different company. And I would say this third phase with my, and I would, I think every CEO are the phases that I would, that I would think of that. How many CEOs have you had? I'm on my third. That's pretty good going. Carla's amazing. Yeah. She's, she's the one where I can safely say like, I can sleep at night. It's in good hands. She's golden. Like she gets, she, she gets the mission of the company. She knows how to grow the business. She's very honest and transparent. Her ego isn't getting in the way of putting the business first and what's right for the business.

45:15And how much of her suitability is actually about you as a founder, knowing what you need and what suits you versus the other ones that maybe weren't so well suited? Because I feel like I get better, hopefully every year at choosing the right people to operate around me. I definitely got better. I got better. It's not easy. I mean, it's not easy. You don't know until it doesn't work. You don't know until it doesn't work. Yeah. And that's the real. And someone can have been very successful on paper in another place and yet not be right for you. Often. Right? Often. And it's a very difficult balance to strike, especially when you get to something that you were building this company, you took it public.

45:53It's a different sense of accountability. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Accountability. That's one thing that I feel like with Carla that I so appreciate is her conviction around accountability and her pride in accountability. It's really uncanny. And I think being a Afro-Latina in a very traditional CPG world and going up through the ranks, she's just had to put up with a lot of foolishness. And so there weren't probably as many safety nets in place for her as there may have been. That's interesting psychology as someone who's coming. Maybe, maybe her lived experience as her moving through the world. It would make sense.

46:40And her having to navigate it.

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48:57There was somewhere I've read you described yourself as having an unnatural level of discipline. How has that helped you be successful as a founder? I would say maybe I was, maybe I worded it wrong. Perseverance. I have an unnatural amount of perseverance. How so? Say more. I push myself to the point where I'm like, if it literally, if it doesn't kill me, it will make me stronger. And I put myself physically and emotionally to the brink of every edge. And I I don't know how to not do that. I'm like the little rattlesnake, the baby that just releases all the venom. It doesn't know that you only need to do a little bit.

49:45Just a little bit. No, I just really do your whole lifetime of venom. A whole lifetime of venom. So I just go hard on the paint all the time. So I'm... Does that show up in all areas of your life or specifically related to business? No, I think it's in all areas. But I'm learning how to regulate a little bit more. And I think meditating has helped a lot. I do a lot of inner work and healing. And I think that helps because it's not sustainable. No, it's not. Do you think it's cost you personally, creatively? Yes. Yeah. I think it also, when you have that level of that work ethic, of course you expect everyone else around you to operate that way.

50:27And it could be very depleting for your team because even though I work that way and I'll work to the bone and I can think of 98 tiny minute details, that's not how everybody's brain works or processes and it just overwhelms them. And so I've had to learn about reading the room. I've had to learn about reading a situation. I've had to learn how to just feed bits and pieces. Although I was on the phone with my contractor this morning and I really gave it to him. I was just supposed to talk about one thing. I gave him laundry. There she goes. All of it. That's amazing. I mean, I ask you, has it costed you anything?

51:13Because again, I think we don't talk enough, A, about failure, but B, about the costs. And you can look at you and go like, wow, she did this thing and she built this giant company, but it's never for nothing. There's never no trade-off. There's never something that you didn't give up in return. Yeah, for sure. And I think even as a friend, I think I could be probably not the easiest friend. I'm generous. I believe I put all my friends on these pedestals and I only see like their ultimate potential and I see that and I push that in them and I hold space for them also to be soft because there's not a lot of circumstances where we can be.

51:55And having another woman hold space for another woman to be soft and to be fragile, especially when she's had to be a badass her whole life to be successful. Like we have to out, what men don't realize is just how hard it is for us to not just be women, but to have to be men times 10. Like we You have to really embody so much in being successful. It's really quite wild. It is wild. And so my friends who have been successful and have built things in their lives, I now feel like it's almost my job to say, to like create almost like a womb environment where it's like, let's just cry together. Let's just not be fucking perfect today.

52:39Let's just be. Oh, I love that. Let's just not be fucking perfect today. I'd like someone to say that to me. At least once a week. Can you call me every Monday morning, please? Let's not be perfect today. But how do you practice that? Like, how does that come up in your life? How do you not be fucking perfect? Because honestly, like the idea, looking at you, like if I'm just like passing judgment, I didn't know you at all. And I do a little bit. So I know that that isn't everything. It's not everything of your personality. But how have you found the ways to not show up as perfect? And how have you allowed yourself that vulnerability?

53:18Well, I think kids, for me, kids have been very grounding as far as like showing you when you're not it, right? And then for me, instead of getting upset and trying to keep up the facade, I'm like, you're right. I really didn't, I didn't say that right. I didn't show up for you. I could have worded that differently. I could have done this differently. I'm sorry. I'll do better next time. Please continue to tell me how I can be a better mom to you. I literally started taking my kids to therapy when they were like around 10. You did? Yeah. And I did it with them. Together. I was going to say as a family.

53:57And I would take the girls one-on-one and I would say to the therapist, like, this is meant for them to be able to tell me how I can be a better mom to them. because I know they're upset about some things that I do. And I know I want them to know that they won't get in trouble when they talk about it here. And I just want them to feel like they can express themselves in a real way. And I, you know, I just know that I think as you're finding your voice as a young woman, to be able to have your mom say, like, validate you and validate your feelings. I just felt like maybe that could be something that can be kind of life-changing for them life change like sit like seriously life changing so seriously so I started that early I didn't realize how hard it would be for me to hear it I was gonna say you were gonna hear it I'm gonna be like oh geez okay I did oh shit I did that didn't I they are mirrors I'd be like oh god yes I did say that that one time I really did do that or I remember honor would say like stop treating me like haven I'm like I don't treat you like haven and then she was like and this and this And that's what I was like, oh, dang, I really do just boob you.

55:08Yeah. Because it's just easier. It's easier. It's just like a smush of kids that I've got. And she's like, I'm three years older. She shouldn't be able to get the same privileges as me. It was like about like bedtime. No, I was literally just about to say that. Like I've had my kids going to bed at the same time forever because that was what's convenient for me. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. It took my son to be like, mom, there's like a two year difference. And two years is big when you're, you know, eight and ten. I'm like, oh, shit. And 12 and 10. We're going to stagger that too. 12 and 10 three drop-offs three bedtimes I'm like give me a break guys that's the same I would do the three the three bedtime stories yes or the cuddle time or they want to debrief their day and then all of a sudden it would be midnight and you're like I'm so I'm like a shell of myself I just wanted to watch something on the TV or I've got work to do more likely I've got work to do yeah was the was the counselling with your kids in reaction to how much you worked or was it just more about what is right for the family?

56:07Did you, like, I'm asking you if you had like big mom guilt. Yeah, I had big mom guilt and I'm always trying to do the most. And I was like, what do I wish I had when I was little? Because I saw some patterns in myself that I just didn't want to pass down to my kids. And I feel like a lot of it started when I was going through puberty and I was starting to like, you know, it's kind of when your kids are individuating and so everything you say is wrong, even when you're right, but it's not about being right. It's just about them individuating from you. Oh, that's the worst. And then when they like listen to their damn friends and you're like, what does this 11 year old know about anything?

56:57But it's not even about that. It's such an easy life. I'm like, it's fine. it's fine it's fine but it's actually really healthy for them to individuate and for them to feel safe enough to be able to push back on you and to know that you're not going anywhere so I you know I had to learn that a lot of humility it's a gift for your kids I think especially like you said as young women having that not even just with their own mother but having the ability to like give feedback in a safe space and in a safe way that you're setting them up for their life. But then also I would say let go of perfection.

57:34And that really helped peel that onion back where they saw their mom not perfect. And I showed them it's okay to have flaws and you can still be loved. Yeah. And you can still, you know, stand in your power and you can still take up space and you can be as flawed of a human being as it takes to learn and grow and be and exist and be truthful. And you're teaching them very early that you are just human because I think for so long, we look at our parents as these like magical, mythical beings that they should make no mistakes. And it takes quite a long time to get to a point in your life where you're like, they're just humans.

58:11They're just like us. Whereas your kids are learning that really quite young. I love that. My mom's just a new and you're doing it like that. Nobody's so healthy for them because they don't quite like hold you to an unrealistic standard. And I think for my mom, I was like 19 years old raging at her. And she's like, I had you when I was 21. I was just figuring it out, kiddo. You know, it's like, had I had, had she been able to educate me in a different way for me to see her as more of a human being who wasn't, you know, always basking in this like light of being a perfectionist. I might have understood that earlier.

58:45Right. It's really healthy. It's really helpful. It's helped both of us. I would say it's also helped me let go of this idea of perfection. And then for them, it's modeling that for themselves. Have you let go of perfection? Yeah. I still have standards that are at the highest level, but I'm not so relentless with the pursuit of them. That feels very evolved. it feels like a real grown-up thing to say Jessica I still have to breathe through it I still have to breathe through it yeah how do you think about success now because I know in the early days when you're a founder you have like a usually as an entrepreneur you have an idea of like this when I get here this is when I'll be successful how has that evolved for you for me I just was like if people trust us to bring us into their home that was success and I would say that was that's still success when it comes to honest I mean it's a pretty big one isn't it you trust us to bring us into your home and be part of your day-to-day life and because we are interfaced with people in the most sort of like intimate and um all those like in between moments.

1:00:05Yeah. The time in your life when you have a new baby, right? Or when you're washing your face, when you're looking at, you know, it's like your alone time or they're all of these like really kind of precious daily moments. And so if you trust us, that's success to me. And that hasn't changed, but success to me as a human now is how much I can get into my parasympathetic nervous system instead of my fight or flight. It's like the adrenaline or the cortisol. I don't want to be there. I want to be in this neutral space because there's something really liberating about that. And I didn't even realize that I could live in this in-between space where I'm not either just totally drained or having to do the most.

1:00:59I think that that is so symptomatic of being a founder because you're on this like journey and it does feel like high lows, high lows, high lows constantly. When do you think you got there? But I think I've been like that my whole life. Really? Yeah. That's just who you are. I think so. That's how you're, you're hardwired that way. So how did you find this kind of golden middle? I don't find it often, but this is my pursuit. Thank you for being honest. This is my pursuit. This is my pursuit on the daily, at least if I can get a little bit of it. I started meditating maybe seven years ago and really doing a lot of inner work.

1:01:37Around that time, my friend got sick with cancer. I'm sorry. And so I think her journey, her health journey became my health journey. It was like a mirror almost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, gosh, it just felt so close to home. You know, yeah, I also just did. I thought about just time differently and being present. for my kids. And there's something when you're in a constant state of either like heightened cortisol or heightened adrenaline. You're just not, it's hard to be present. And the kids grow so fast and these moments are so fleeting with them. I just want to like soak them up.

1:02:24Yes. You know, because it's like this, my daughter was almost 17. How did that happen? I don't know. It's so bad. It's crazy. You're going to be a senior in high school. Like what's going on? it's so hard you're like also because i'm just 34 i'm basically 28 what is happening she's like my baby i'm so proud of her but it's but it's like i still see this little like yeah this little kid she looked like a little fraggle rock she was just this little sweet little face and little teeth and her little voice and her wild hair but it was a decision that you made you said like I've got to draw the line somewhere.

1:03:09I'm going to take my health seriously. I'm going to start meditating and I'm going to live my life in a different way. Yeah. You can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results. So I started to really prioritize my mental wellness in a different way. Was there like a moment where you were ever close to quitting or just giving up? In the beginning. Yeah. The beginning for sure. Before it became something. Once you get a product in hand. And once that product goes into someone's home, and once you get the feedback, like the outpouring of people from people who have, I mean, the amount of people that have sensitive skin that are like, thank you so much.

1:03:51I have sensitive skin. Everything, my skin reacts to everything. Your products are perfect for my skin or my child's skin. You know, it's just like giving people that, that's quality of life, man. Yes. And then after that, then I'm like, it's worth it. I can do it. I can go through it. I mean, I always think about it when we do those like volunteer days at baby to baby, and there are quite literally mountains, like huge thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of boxes of products, of honest products that you're giving away. And when you're in that situation where you can give away that much.

1:04:28So we, I'm like, we embedded nonprofit and charity into our business model from day one with baby to baby, but it was never like, I didn't want that to be the reason why people bought Honest. I just wanted it to be part of our culture. And it's just part of who we are as a brand. And it's amazing that all these years later, that key tenant of the company has remained, right? Because still to this day, it's like when I'm packing up those bags, obviously we're both on the board of Baby to Baby, but it's like you do so much still. And I feel like that's something you can take great pride in. Yeah, it's cool.

1:05:01It's really nice to give away, but it's also really nice to stack money. And I want to talk to you about money for a second, because obviously you didn't come from much. How has your relationship to money changed over the years? It really has changed from the scarcity mindset to abundance mindset. What does that mean for you? Thinking that every day was my last day of making money and I was never going to make another dime again. And so I had this like hustler thing of like, oh no, where's my next meal? Or, oh no, am I going to have a roof over my head? Or, oh no, am I going to be okay? This like scarcely, like there was never going to be enough.

1:05:39And it was going to slip through my hands and just not having a safety net really or feeling like the floor was going to be pulled out from underneath me to like, I'm on solid ground. I'm okay I can breathe I can look around and I can think about like actually what brings me joy is the money a part of that yeah don't you think yeah I do think I just think most people lie yeah no money money allows you to be exactly who you really are at your core and when you are in survival mode it's very difficult to be your truest self facts actual factual facts. Yeah. Yes. Because you're in survival mode. You're in survival mode.

1:06:20You have to make decisions that were otherwise outside of who you are and who you truly want to be. And money is greatly freeing in that sense. It's very liberating and it's just what it is.

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1:09:06what's your behavior around money now do you do you invest like do you invest in other businesses like what do you what do you do not as much as you do your money I wish I had as much as you to invest no I um who knows I yeah I invest I advise I love helping out and advising other women especially in business, purpose-driven businesses, just because I've been through the trenches. Also like VC to PE investors, those are very different types of investors. And then you have the institutional investors and then you have Wall Street. They're all very different. Do you feel a sense, and I say this because I feel it myself, I feel a sense of obligation.

1:09:51Like I have to let people know because I had so much ignorance to all that stuff. and I learned the hard way. Me too. So I feel like I have to, it's like I'm running around like telling people. I wanted to, I tried to be the person I never had in my corner. Yeah. I imagine that you were very underestimated in some of those rooms. All of them. And continue to. You think still now? Oh yeah. Even after everything that you've built and going public and ringing the bell and all the things? I think unless someone like actually sits down with me and has a conversation with me, I think there's bias. There's a bias around who I am and how I fit into the puzzle.

1:10:32Don't you think? Even with you? Yeah. I think it's hard. I mean, I know there is. I think we glitch people. They just, they're just like, there's no way you can be smart and capable and marketing and great ideas and visionary. And you understand supply chain and operations and how the business model works in order for you to have a strong EBIT or whatever. They like can't, like their mind are like, wait, what? It's like Syntac era, 100%. It's just like, yeah. And so you have to allow for that to happen. I, you know, it's so interesting because I feel like I've so, that has happened to me so frequently in my life.

1:11:13But at this point, I just blank it out. I'm like, you must be a fool to underestimate me. Like, do you know what I'm like? I'm like, how dumb are you? Like, it just, you know, it doesn't even, I don't know, like it doesn't even touch the sides. I used to get so irritated. I used to get so irritated too. You know, it used to really, and more than irritated, it used to upset me. It used to upset me. That's why I'd be like, we're fighting. In my meetings, I'd be like, we're here to fight. My question for you was that I wonder what you learned about asserting yourself in spaces where perhaps you weren't immediately taken at face value.

1:11:47Like what do you tell other female founders and what did you learn about yourself? I learned that you have to know the fine print. You got to know your numbers. You got to understand your business model. You got to understand the two or three other business models that they're going to throw at you as examples of what you could be or what you could do. And you had to give them three reasons why all of those won't work for your particular business. So you just have to know your business inside and out. And you have to understand the marketplace and how you differentiate inside of it. You have to know that if you don't, there's no reason for you to be in those rooms.

1:12:27You got to be ready. You got to be ready. Yeah. So preparation is, is most important. And then once you're prepared, then there's nothing to fear. Then it's just nonsense. Then, then, and then you can just ask them questions. Yeah. No. And that's it. Right. Oftentimes I think I used to have this thing. I think it was Jens. I know it was Jens who said it to me. He said, you know, you have an employee's mentality. And it drove me crazy because I was always going into these meetings, almost seeking somebody else, giving me the answer. I was like constantly in sales mode. And when you learn to flip the table a little bit and it's like, actually, we're all in this room because we all need something from this.

1:13:08it changes everything. And that took me a really long time to learn. And arguably, I think like way longer than it should have. You know, I still went in as like a service provider into every room and I was like, what am I doing? Like I don't need to be here, but that's my default mode. They got it. And if they don't got it, they ain't my people. Like, so I'm not here to, I don't have to sell everything all the time. I bet that way too. What's your biggest entrepreneurial lesson? Like given everything that you have been through and learned? What do you think is like the one thing that you maybe wish you knew earlier?

1:13:44To trust my gut. Because even in the beginning, when I didn't have as much of a business acumen, I had instincts that told me if something was off, my like spidey sense, or this person is maybe not aligned, or that felt that meeting was a little bit, huh? That was weird. And instead of like spiraling or going through a back door, clocking it, but not doing something about it. I would act on all of my gut instincts quicker. And I would say when someone's not a fit, there doesn't actually need to be any kind of bad feelings about it. It's just like, you're going to have a much better time anywhere else, but here because you're just not fit.

1:14:30You're just not exactly. Yeah. And it's not personal. No, it's not personal. It's never personal. It's like, we got to move on. And you got to do those things like really quickly. I think because of who you are and obviously how quickly that business grew, you were often under a lot of scrutiny. And I think that now, especially when you run businesses in this sort of age of - Cancel culture. Cancel culture and like social media and like all of the things. What did you learn? And how did you create, again, because you kind of go into that panic mode, but when your brand is It's also a strategy.

1:15:03It's also a strategy. They come in. They're coming to get you. They come in because that's how they can devalue you. Yes. And then they can swoop in and buy you at a discount. And that was happening to you? Sure. Shit. Did you know at the time or did you find that stuff out later? Later. Yeah. Shit. Yeah. Oh. But it was so nefarious in the way it goes down. Yes. When stuff like that goes down. No doubt. And when you like unpack how it all goes down. Yeah, like look at the timing. Uh-huh, uh-huh. It's very strategic. It's fine. Or you're a threat to their market share. And so they're like, how can I - Which was a real threat for - Which is - Still a threat.

1:15:50Yeah, because I mean, there was, I created this category and I would say it's probably around consciousness, transparency, honesty. Like, what does that really mean? it doesn't mean anything or it can mean everything. Do you sit there and can you say to yourself, I created this category? Like, can you, like, is that how you, because I really, I mean, I definitely, I definitely think so all that time ago, but do you feel like you get credited for that? I don't care. I think people are better off whether I get credit for it or not. Ultimately, I really care about human beings and whether they are going to have their best chance at life and if they're being exposed to things that can make them sick they it's going to be really hard to live a good life yeah no matter who you are it because illness doesn't discriminate and so for me I was like I just want people to have the best chance at life yeah and whether people want to credit me for that I don't care fair enough you're a mission driven company that actually made its mission yeah no congratulations and if if the market if like all the big companies now have to think twice.

1:17:00Oh, and they do. Amazing. Right? That's success. No, you almost like forced a revolution in how those companies get to operate and the level of transparency that we all have as an expectation. Because consumers now demand it. Yes. It's like a baseline expectation now. We talk about success stories so freely, but if I were to ask you the story that you tell least, like what would that have been for you through this business journey? Maybe what I just said. Relate that. I think so. I already got it. I'll take it. Yeah. I think I've never said that out loud. Okay, fine. I'll definitely take that one.

1:17:34It just like rolled out. And I was like, wait, is that too much? And I was like, no, I don't know. Not on Aspire with Emma Greed. We are here for the business team. Like we need this. No, because listen, I think that what happens, especially, I don't know, I hear very different conversations between my friends that are female entrepreneurs than what I hear my husband have, because I think that for women, it's a lot more personal and that we believe when it fails, we're a failure. And I don't believe any of that, by the way, I've failed multiple times and you don't put them on Instagram in the same way.

1:18:07So maybe they don't get the same light, but I don't think it helps anyone walking around being like everything in my life is so amazing. And my kids are perfect. And they love the amount that they see me and my business is thriving when in fact, That's just not, it's never been the reality of my business journey. When Honor was in preschool, she was like, mommy, why can't you be here like the other moms? I'm like, what do you mean? And she's like, all the other moms are here for Halloween and you weren't. And I'm like, oh, it's not that I didn't want to be, you know, like, kind of like, but I want to, but I'm here now.

1:18:41She's just like, but you weren't here yesterday or like you weren't here the other day. And she like would name all these things. like damn it's true you know how did you reconcile that I cried yeah how do you reconcile it I cried and I like lay with them and I stay up till midnight giving them all their individual cuddles and going through their day and waiting until they are drooling on me until I leave a room and then go to the next room and you know yeah yeah I know I know exactly it's really fucking hard It's really hard. Yeah, and you know that this time is so finite, so you want to give them these memories and these moments.

1:19:25Are there things you look back on and you go, I just got this so wrong? Yeah. Even just how I fit inside of the puzzle of my life and believing so many times that I was the provocateur, I was the villain in the story, when in fact I was the one who just inspired change or I was the momentum. And if people aren't comfortable with momentum, they can view you however they want because you're now lighting a fire under their ass that they they're happy just meandering in a pond, but you're moving forward. And it could be a threat. It could feel like an assault. It could feel like a challenge. Yes. But you're just doing you.

1:20:16And I think for us, where we're on this momentum is our personality. It's our soul. It's our spirit. It's what we're here to do. We're not here to accept the way the world is operating around us. We're here to challenge, to push boundaries and pioneer. And so if we're not doing it, we're not being true to our purpose and why we were put on this planet. And I think for a long time, because it makes, there's so few of us and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. A lot of people are. And I think we have to understand that we're not wrong. We're not bad. And we're actually fulfilling. It would be wrong if we didn't do what we're doing.

1:20:56I'm so glad you said that. That would be the wrong part. That's the only bit of it that would be truly wrong. I was thinking about maybe what you would say to other female founders specifically now, given everything you know. We have so many good ideas. I think we just have to believe in ourselves more. I think we're so untapped. Even if you just think of like the women of color who get funding for their startups, it's what, less than 3 %? I think it's like less than 3%. Less the 0.3 percent 1.3 it went down since the pandemic yeah it's really yeah really uh frightening and isn't it more than 60 percent of the businesses that are created or created by women they're all these small businesses right you look at the number of new businesses started in the last 10 years it disproportionately is uh it's women female founders and yet the funding gap is i mean we know what it is it's i mean it's a joke except it's not funny no it's actually a really unfunny joke.

1:21:57But it's also like the systemic oppression that we can't ignore or deny. No, we cannot. And I think that one of the main reasons that I wanted to start this podcast is again, because so much of the information is shrouded in mystery, right? As women, we get these like glory stories and we see these amazing women and they're sitting at these offices and they look incredible, but we're not free to fail. And when we do fail, there's this horrible kind of like female founder pile that you put on and you're hung out to dry. And because there's so few of us that get a shot. Well, there's so few. And so they want to use us as an example.

1:22:33And that's what drives me crazy because I know so many women and I myself who have failed multiple times and you can come back, but you have to know that you've got permission to come back. Right. And also it's the only way to learn and grow. You don't learn by being successful. No, you do not. You only learn by screwing up and falling on your feet. It's the opposite. It's like all my best learnings are in the failures. Success covers a lot of shit. Actually, you can have a really shitty company that's successful. No, but it's true, right? If you're failing, you tweak more, you learn more, you tinker with the model and you like, until you figure it out.

1:23:10When things are too successful, you look back three years in and you're like, oh shit, we've been ignoring a lot of problems. What have we been doing the whole time? I want to ask you because you talk a lot about therapy and your spiritual side. And I wonder how that impacts who you are, not just as a founder and an entrepreneur, but as a person and how you make choices as you go forward in your life. Like, what does that, what does that look like for you these days? It's allowed me to connect quicker and I have more of a direct line to my intuition. And I think before it was like, is it in there?

1:23:46Is it real? Is that, am I just making it up? But it's like, it's very clear to me now and it's very direct. And it's, you know, I baked into my intuition, like, because of the way I think and process, there's always going to be logic. I'm always going to be pragmatic. I couldn't have come from where I came from and become who I've become without logic and being pragmatic and being a straight shooter and seeing things in black and white and facts, facts, facts, love facts. But on top of that, the magic is the intuition. Yes. Yeah. And that's what you said earlier. Like you would have listened to your gut.

1:24:25So now you're really tapping into that. Really tapped in. Yeah. Yeah. And allowing myself to not have this illusion of perfection. I'm really kind of now in my soft era, just being soft and being vulnerable, which feels really unsafe. But I talked to this woman yesterday and she was like, having emotions doesn't make you, you're not dysregulated by having emotions, but having a safe space to express those emotions, that's when you know you're in a good place. And so I do feel like I've created a safe space to express emotions because I'm going to be angry. You're going to be happy. You're going to be sad.

1:25:11That's normal. You're a human being. So normal. But having the safe space to express them freely without it completely dysregulating everyone else. Yeah. You know, where it's like, you can get it out and then you go back, you know, to your regularly scheduled program, whatever that is. but bottling it in, pretending like it doesn't exist, trying to be so together all the time and ultra control. That'll make you sick. Yeah. That'll really make you sick. Does Softlife Jessica have another startup in her? I hope so. You do? Yeah. Right now I'm really leaning hard on entertainment and producing and I'm going to be acting soon again.

1:25:53I mean, you are back out and, you know. and so I'm excited about that stuff I love telling stories and entertainment I can't help but be a marketing and branding person because I just am that's just how I operate always have it would be fun to to create or to build on business again it's so fun it's so fun it's so fun it's so fun and it's like all those learnings and everything you've got and the getting it off the ground and All the unknowns. So nice. Yeah. As a mother of three, what are you teaching your kids about entrepreneurship and also about money? They do, I think, understand that money is freedom for them to be able to live how they want.

1:26:41Yeah. And so think about being a responsible person and being a reliable person when you commit to said job, whatever that looks like for you. But I really want them to feel fulfilled and feel like they matter. And if whatever that looks like. And so maybe for one of them or all three of them, it's they don't need to have the same amount as another. And maybe it's more about experiential and maybe it's something else that brings them joy. I just want them to experience joy and feel good and not to be in survival mode. And, but I did, I talked to them a lot about how I grew up and about survival mode.

1:27:27And so they know that that is something that people experience and they have been fortunate to not have to grow up in that environment. So they're very, I would say they have humility and I think that's good for them. Entrepreneurship. I think they've seen their father and me both create businesses out of ideas. Growing up with that, they see that modeled. and we both have created pretty successful businesses. So they see that it's possible. Yes. So once you see it's possible and we look like them and then they're like, oh yeah, that can be us too. Yeah. I wonder if you stepping down has given you what you intended it to.

1:28:08Like, are you in that place now where you're like, I got what I needed? Yeah. You know, I have enough distance from it now. I think in the beginning it was really hard, right? because I felt still so like the cords, it's almost like the umbilical cord, like with your kids, you know? But I still felt that attachment, but I really feel like it's on its own doing its thing. I mean, honestly, I think it's just, I've always been impressed with you every time we've ever met, but I think that, you know, what you've done with that business and where you've come to personally, it really is something to be so proud of.

1:28:44And I think if your kids just take one little, 1 % of that. Like you could just be, you know, so happy with everything. It would all be entirely worth it. I just want them to feel loved by me. Well, I'm sure they do. Yeah. I'm sure they do. That's most important. No doubt. Thank you, my dear. I only have a very quick speed round of questions for you. Then we're done. What is your morning ritual and your nighttime routine? morning ritual is I wake up, I pound water, I meditate in bed. I usually have like two or three ready to go. And then I get my morning coffee and I work out. And then at night I do my skincare.

1:29:28I love chamomile tea at night. And so that like nighttime tea time, my, my skincare routine. and then it depends if I have the kids with me. I usually have two of them in my room with me at any given time, yeah. They sleep in your bed or they're just in your room? My son, sometimes I can convince him to sleep on the bed, but he loves sleeping on the ground and we have like a little bed on the ground. I don't know why, he just was like, no mom, I'm gonna be on the ground here. He's so cute, just needs to be close to you. He sleeps with me usually, but once in a blue mountain otter will. But yeah, usually Haven.

1:30:04So sweet. Okay. What is your current aspiration in business and what is it personally? My current aspiration in business, I don't know. I don't have a focus yet on where to put that energy. But I feel like there'll be, not yet, not yet. But I have to say love wellness and I love beauty. And so whatever that is, I'm not sure what that is yet. And what about personally? Personally, what do I aspire? I really aspire to stretch out my in-between moments as much as possible. That is a really wonderful thing to aspire to. I might steal that one. What is a book that's changed your life? I would say as for this podcast, Start With Why is a good one.

1:30:58Adam's book, Think Again. Oh, that's a really good one. Adam Grant, he's very good. And leadership, the Eleanor Roosevelt way, is a really great one. I know that one too. Because you see this woman who grew up and was raised in a time where women were such second-class citizens in so many ways. And she was the rock, the anchor in this relationship. And what she did for veterans, what she did for civil rights, what she did for women, what she just did in that time. And it wasn't a lot of time. And what she, she just did so much and she would not take no for an answer. Someone to really look up to.

1:31:41What did you once prioritize that you no longer value? Control. What is something that you deeply value today that you overlooked in the past? Snuggles. It's being cozy. Just being cozy. One of the best things. Thank you, my darling. This is heaven. You're so great. Thank you. Thank you.

1:32:06If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reece Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black.

1:32:42Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado, and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jones Works and WNE, Maura Curran Josephina Francis Hilary Schuff Eric Donnelly Kate Hutchinson Rose Tim Meekle Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira If you have questions for me you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E That's Aspire A-S-P-I-R-E with Emma Greed Or you can submit a question to me on my website emmagreed.me In football value isn't just about making flashy plays it's about consistency durability showing up week after week season after season that's toyota the brand built for the long game award-winning quality legendary reliability and a lineup of vehicles that hold their value against the toughest competition every play every drive it's no wonder toyota was named the best resale value brand for 2025 according to kellybluebookskbb.com for the fifth year in a row and why toyota is proud to be the official automotive partner of the nfl because like every great team toyotas are built to go the distance for great deals and reliable vehicles you can count on visit buyatoyota.com that's buyatoyota.com vehicles projected resale value is specific to the 2025 model year for more information, visit kellybluebookskbb.com.

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