Aspire with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson: The Power of Knowing Your "Why"

29:16You know, it's interesting because we didn't talk about that. And I'm listening to you and I actually jotted down sort of, well, what are my principles? And just listening to him, I wrote down, do what you're passionate about. Do the best that you can. Be as prepared as you can and operate with empathy. I'm so happy that you mentioned that because I have been thinking, you know, I'm like in this sort of interesting third chapter of my life and career. And I've been thinking a lot about, well, what do you want to do? And what do you put out there? And for me, everything starts from like these foundational principles.

29:52And my team, because I talk about the principles all the time, my head, they were like, what are your principles? And I told them like, you have to do an episode on that. So I did like my first solo episode. I was very scared. I was like, channeling my inner like Mel Robbins here. And you just talking with no one to talk to? Just with no one to talk to. Because my studio was big. I would do that. It's really scary. You really test yourself. But then I realized, I've been talking for a long time. And then we're like, all right, you're done. Cut. Get her out of here. But it was interesting because it really made me bake down.

30:23Like, what makes me me and what do I care about? And that's why I wanted to ask you those things. Because I think we all find you and your family so unbelievably fascinating. And when you see the dynamic between you two, So it's so clear that there's just some foundational stuff there. There's just stuff that you have that must have come from your parents, that must have come from your upbringing. And I love the fact that you talk about emotional intelligence because that wasn't a bedrock of my upbringing. I had to learn that and learn it the hard way. But I imagine as parents, that's something that you were both acutely aware of and you've tried to give to your kids as a foundational principle.

31:02Absolutely. I mean, we spend more time talking about how you treat other people. I mean, I tried to make it a point just as a parenting principle not to talk about school and grades with the kids at the table. Because when you have an older one and one coming up, you don't know who the younger one is going to be. You're like creating a dynamic almost. You're creating the dynamic and first daughter, brilliant, precocious. And so is the second one. But I was very careful to not sort of overdo. Oh, you got an A. Oh, this happened. Oh, you achieved these things because I'm thinking emotionally, this one isn't even coming up yet.

31:47And what if that's not who she is or who she wants to be? And if she sees us falling all over the first one for, you know, things, what does that tell her? And how does it change the way she behaves without you even knowing because she wants to please you? So we spent more time talking about what happened at school, friendships. How did you feel? Because I felt like that was more neutral territory. You know, let's talk through problems. You know, okay, great. You're doing well at school. That's for you. Good for you. But it's not, you know, it's not the basis of our dynamic here. So I... And what did you care about?

32:29Like when you think about like what are the things that you were like, but this is a must do in this house? Kindness, self-possession. I wanted my kids to... I love that self-possession. my kids to be okay with speaking up for themselves, but not by putting somebody else down. I wanted my girls to know how to fight for themselves. I wanted them to know how to advocate for themselves, how to communicate, how to deal. But how did you even teach that? Oh, my gosh. You know, I think for us, it's a lot of talking to your kids. I mean, when we talk about the kitchen table, part of IMO and we sit around a table is that we spent our time.

33:19Our house was so small. Everything happened in the kitchen table. Condensed. That was the place. And everybody in our family, extended family, they came and we sat around the table and we talked about everything. thing. We heard about our uncle's exploits at work. He was a detective and he would tell long stories about cases he was on and everybody was a storyteller and everybody was sort of putting their lives and their issues on the table and the kids were allowed to be there. Exactly. You had a lot of exposure. To witness and no one was shushed. Like if you had a question and if you had to be polite about it, But you were a part of the conversation and our parents, more so than anyone in our family, encouraged kids to do that.

34:05And so I wanted, I think we both in our households wanted to create that same dynamic of voice. Right. Because that's where you practice empathy. You test out theories. You come home, something happened at school and we're going to talk about it. Because we talkers, that's what we do. We're not going to solve it for you. But we're going to talk it through. And we want to hear, well, what would you have done? And why did you do that? What did you think about that? I mean, practicing almost scenarios in a way, real life and imaginary scenarios. And it's the conversation and the patience and something that we lose when everybody these days separates into their own rooms and their own phones and their own devices.

34:52Or when parents don't share things with their kids. You know, I often hear, especially because I've moved to L.A., it's like that's not a conversation for a kid, you know, and I was brought up again, much like you just hearing everything. The good, the bad, the sign in a program. It was never not a, if something happened at a family dinner, somebody had an argument or somebody said something crazy, maybe we wouldn't talk about it then. But in the car ride home, we'd be like, well, tell us about what aunt such and such said. Can you help us understand what's going on? So I think helping, giving kids credit for understanding context, you know, not dumbing things down, you know, not having conversations that are too above kids.

35:34Inappropriate, yes, of course. But taking children's curiosity, not as disrespect, but as an opportunity to teach. Yes. My mother, for example, she used to tell the story about Craig when he was a baby, that when he was learning how to do some things, he would get on the couch and he wanted to get off on his own. And instead of stopping him from doing it, she said, I took the time to show him as early as two that you could turn around, scoot yourself down and get off the couch by yourself. So instead of telling him, don't get off the couch, you're too young or be careful. She was like, let me teach him.

36:16And she always talked about how smart kids were, how smart babies were. She was aware. She was an early childhood development protege before it was a thing. She was very into how kids, children, babies thought. And she understood that they were smart and that they had ideas very early on. that's all emotional intelligence. And I think like that. I think like that about my kids. I think about that about my staff and my people. My whole question in life is, why are you doing what you're doing? What made you say that before I react? I think, what's your context? Do you think that that is a good conversation that people should have with themselves?

37:04Because I feel like it's one that I'm having constantly with myself right now. Like, why am I doing what I'm doing? And what is the point of all of this? And so going back to your principles, it feels like you guys were raised to question yourself, to have the emotional intelligence to go inside yourselves and figure it out. Yes. Our mom was really good about saying, you tell me why you want to do something. It was so, so it was, you had some agency in anything you wanted to do. So if I wanted to, if I wanted to go over to a girl's house and we, we, we've talked about this before, she wouldn't say no.

37:48She would say, well, what do you think? And you imagine how much pressure that puts on you. Especially when you go to your parents and you say, what do you think is the best? And it's like, I just want you to tell me. Yeah, please. Just tell me the right answer because I don't want to mess this up. And that kind of agency gives you confidence to make good decisions no matter what the situation. And another point that Mish mentioned, she mentioned empathy. my mom was the type when I would she would come to our school and help out early before people really did that she was part of the team before they were room parents she would just come she knew how hard a teacher's job was and she'd come and offer some help and she came to my class once and I got my work done and I was walking around talking to other kids and my mom said what are you doing and I said I'm done with my work She said, well, why don't you help somebody else who needs help?

38:51And it never had crossed my mind to do that. Well, you're a kid. Because I'm a kid. You're a kid. And I think being a good leader, you have to have empathy for the people you lead because their upbringings aren't the same as yours and their experiences aren't the same as yours. But if you can contextualize why they're doing something, to Michelle's point, you'll be a better leader. No doubt. It's such a, it's, it's absolutely true. I mean, I feel like I'm in constant conversation thinking about that all the time. Like what, what is happening for this person that that's the reaction? How can I see it from their point of view?

39:32And it's, and again, it comes from a place of empathy. You have to be able to see it from their point of view. And the questioning that you were mentioning, the constant questioning. Yes. That's what we were raised to do to always ask our own why. So when I was my first job out of law school, of course, after graduating Harvard, as I wrote about, I did what all Harvard grads did. I started working at a big corporate firm, making as much money as I could. You were just on a trajectory. I was on a trajectory. I was checking a box, not questioning because I was on my path. Well, and also because it's like, you just come out of Harvard.

40:11You're like, I earned that too. So I'm going to do that. I'm Son of debt. Oh, yes. You needed the money. I needed the money. But I talked about one of the turning points, early turning points in my life was when I lost my father. And then the same year I lost one of my best friends to lymphoma. First time I had lost people close to me. And you're 27 at this point? 26. Young. Yeah, young. Yeah. And I had to look at myself and say, is this is is this who I am? I mean, did I do all of this to just work in this firm? And there's nothing wrong with working in a firm, but I hadn't questioned myself.

40:54I realized that I needed to figure out my why. Am I here for the right reason? And if I'm not, what else can I be doing? And have I tried anything else on before choosing this? And I think it's that helped get me into a career of service. Yes. You know, and I probably wouldn't have done it. My parents weren't questioning me. They supported every - No, no one's questioning you going to the top law firm. Exactly. Everyone's like, you've done it. You made it. And they didn't know what else you could be. I mean, we had already kind of surpassed them in terms of education and experience. Right. So they but they were still mentoring us through this act of showing us how to continue to dig inside and figure out our why.

41:41And I I am doing that every day. That was my next question. Do you do you still do that? Do you feel like it happens with like frequency in your life? I I'm at another why point now. I mean, you know, that's why I tell people you never stop becoming. You know, here I am. I am 61. Am I 61 now? You're 61. Thank you. You know, I'm sort of like, how old am I? I'm 61 years old. Have I done enough? Is it time to stop? You ask yourself that? Have I done enough? Oh, yeah. I'm in therapy, you know, trying to figure out why do I keep asking myself that. But I'm 61, but I'm only. What's the answer? Why do you keep asking yourself that?

42:25I haven't. She's driven. There's a drive and there's a sense of responsibility. There's probably a bit of survivor's remorse. There's also just a truth that there's so much to be done, that it's hard for me to look at problems and not figure out what can I do to solve it. Is that a burden for you? Yeah, it is. Do you have the same feeling? So I don't, and the only reason I don't have it is because I'm still raised, my wife Kelly and I are still raising a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old. So you have four kids, correct? I have four kids. Two that are grown-ups and then two that are in high school.

43:04Two, 33 and 29, and then 15 and 13. So going into the sophomore year and going into the eighth grade. Because you know I have four too. I know you have four kids. Four's a lot of kids, isn't it? It's a lot. Let's have a sympathy thing right now. We went two and two, so what you're doing is actually harder. Then you smush them all together. You smush them all together. I think in the Iron Market it might be easier. And you have twins. You still have some of the stuff. Yeah. Emma, you haven't thought about your why? After all that, you're not thinking and running two companies out. I'm like, why?

43:35On the board of the foundation. Why? I'm like, mom, mom, mom. Why am I doing this is the question. Emma, are you driven? You know, I had good role models. Let me tell you what you did. You fired up every woman on the planet. And I think that that's the truth because again, living in England, you know, there were just women and I've spoken about this so many times. It's not just because you're here and I want to kiss some ass, but it's the truth. You know, like Oprah for me was like the one you'd come home and I would run home from school because Oprah came on at 3.45. And so I would get my fix and I would like, you know, I learned about gratitude and I learned about like the, you know, the good stuff that I wasn't seeing around me, like community, empathy.

44:19How do you take care of people? What does mindfulness meet? So I learned all this stuff. And throughout my life, I feel like people have appeared, right? To kind of show me the way. And, you know, for so many of us, we saw you and we were like, wow, she's a lawyer and she's so accomplished. And now she's going to take on this whole like situation around what everybody's eating. And then she's going to be out here speaking and look at her arms and look at her outfit. And it was like all the things. And so So in my head, I was like, well, of course I can. And I think that that's so important because I truly believe you can't be what you don't see.

44:55And one of my biggest reasons for wanting to so bad be on the board of the Obama Foundation, I made no secret of it. I told everybody else, what about me? I can pull myself up for that. But, you know, for me, again, it's about this idea of what are you putting out there and how many people can it impact? And I feel like in both of your careers, you haven't just settled with making something great for yourselves and making something great for your families. But you've got had these kind of like huge tentacles. And that is really admirable. And I think that, you know, the ripe age of 42 right now, you start to think about a lot of things beyond yourself and beyond your own family.

45:35And that's why for me, it's so fascinating that at this point in your life, you two have chosen to come together and share all of this golden stuff because it's what the world needs. Like we need to hear that. I need to understand your principles. I want to know like how I should raise my kids. I want to know like what you did wrong, quite honestly. I want all of it, like all the information. So we are like eating it up right now, taking notes literally all the time. And I feel like your whole family and the way that you guys are is just a big, beautiful lesson for all of us. Like we should be so lucky.

46:11I really feel like that. And it still goes back to what our mom said, because he quotes it a lot. We are not special. There are millions of Michelle and Craigs out there. You know this too. We are not rare. It's just opportunity, luck. We happen to have two good parents. You know, our souls are the same. Our intellect is the same. But when you lock up on two good parents, you know, big deal. So, yeah, I feel like I have a responsibility to the millions of other Craig's and Michelle's that are coming up that may not get that lucky piece. And for kids like us, you know, you don't get it all. You miss a piece.

47:01And it's the trajectory is intense. There's no room for error for kids like us. And it really makes me emotional, you know, because I think of one step away. And, you know, this guy could be seen as a criminal, as somebody who's dangerous. One step away, I could have been, you know, somebody who could have never gotten into college with the same mind, the same possibility, the same heart, the same soul. So I do feel a responsibility to cast a broad net and to be the light for somebody, you know, some kid like me, you know, who didn't have the right mom, didn't have the right mix. Things just didn't work out perfectly for us.

47:52You know, and this is what I want this country to understand. It's like life is unfair for a lot of kids. there are no safety nets for many of us. We provide that safety net for each other through our taxes, through our giving, through our empathy, through our openness, especially when you have enough, when you've been blessed with plenty. Our responsibility, our principles should be, how do we spread that? Because guess what I've learned? There's enough for me to have a lot because I've had many careers. I've made money. I don't believe in not making money. Thank you. But I also say that part too, right?

48:35Because I don't think it's either or. It's not either or. You can do both. You know, you can make a lot of money. You can pay your fair share of taxes. There can be a good social safety net. You can have good insurance and everybody can have good insurance. You know, we can all, there's plenty on this planet to go around and it's not a zero sum game. And so that's what keeps driving me is like to whom much is given, much is expected, you know? And we're a great country where many of us have been given a lot and there are a lot of people within our own midst who don't have enough. And it's not because I'm special and they're not.

49:16It's not because I worked harder and deserved it more and they didn't because I know who those people are And they are not all the same color as me. They come from all walks of life. We can't make assumptions about who people are and what they can do based on the color of their skin. There are well-deserving poor people in Appalachia and there are well-deserving poor people on the south side of Chicago. And all of them are not getting a fair shake. They don't have good enough schools. They don't get health care. And I feel it is our responsibility not just to have principles for our own individual selves, but have principles that are going to impact a broader squad of people because it makes us all better.

50:00Oh, yes. And that really does. That's the thing that keeps me pushing forward and feeling like, have I done enough?

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53:16So Michelle, what do you say to somebody listening today who thinks she's absolutely right? I really believe that to my core, but I don't know where to start. I work my regular job. I'm pretty okay. Like, how do you start to extend yourself and have a broader impact if you want one? Well, one of the principles that I talk about in The Light is start small. You know, the power in small change is really real, you know, and sometimes we get ahead of ourselves because we think it has to be big. And look, not all of us will ever have the platform to have big impact. And that's OK because big impact is limited.

54:02Look, I lived with the president of the United States of America, and there were so many things he couldn't get done because there are limits on that power. And as we are learning, it's good to have some limits on power. You know, it's good to have a democracy with checks and balances. There's a reason for that. But I also think that like a teacher, oh, being a good teacher, that's some power. Being a good parent to the children you bring into this planet, small, right there in your lap. Right there in your house. It's like, don't you don't have to do you don't have to do anything else but raise the kids you brought into the world.

54:45That doesn't mean you have to be rich. That means you have to be present and proper. That means you have to have some theories of your why. It's not just why do I want to be important. It's like, why do I want to be a mother? Why did I bring this kid here? And now that they're here, what's my responsibility? I would just say to people, focus right in your lap first. Take care of the thing that you have control and power over. And sometimes it's as small as yourself. Like if you can rethink your why. It might just be yourself. It may be yourself. Wonder, well, why are you angry? Why don't you want to give?

55:24Why are you mad? What are you mad about? Where's that coming from? So I just encourage people, start with what you can control. Don't try to change your community. Do you have a little cousin who's looking up to you? Do you have a neighborhood kid down the street from you who looks up to you? We all have someone looking up to us and living a life where we're a role model to those people in small ways, being good, going to work, being responsible. Doesn't mean you have to be an NBA star. Doesn't mean you have to be a Steph Curry. You don't have to be Michelle Obama to make change. You know, it starts right here.

56:04And I would encourage people, start small. Start where you are. Start right where you are. But just be really committed to it and passionate about it. Right. Don't half-ass it. Right. That's a really important thing. Don't half-ass it. Do something small and do it for real, for real. Then do it for real, for real. If you're going to be in somebody's, a kid's life, then be there. You know, you don't have to be perfect in it. You don't have to be there every day. But when you say you're going to do something for a kid, then do it. Yeah. And if you can't do it, then don't say you can. That's another thing we learned from our parents.

56:36They didn't, they couldn't give us much. But if they told us they were going to do something or be somewhere, they did it. You know, they didn't lie. Oh, that's the same where I come from. You know, if you're from East London, your word is key. Is your bond. Your word is your bond. Yes. You know, and if you can't do it, then say you can't. Honesty in your word. Our father couldn't give us much, but he showed up whenever he said he was. He was consistent. So I picked a man like my father. Barack Obama is a consistent man in my life and my daughter's life. And when he says he's going to do something for us, he does it.

57:10My brother, consistent man in my life, you know, small things. Small things. Craig, did you have the same type of like important people in your life outside the family? I mean, like mentors or somebody that helped you out in that way? I did. I did. It was my extended family. My dad's younger brothers who were closer to us in age than he was to my father. There was a gap in there. There was a little gap in there when they. I love the young uncles. They were the most fun. Oh, God. They could do so much good stuff for you. And so this was during the time of high black activism. Right. Black Panthers, that kind of thing.

57:56and they allowed me in that world at an early age, you know, 10, 11 years old. Did you have a natural interest anyway? I had a natural interest in anything they were doing. Ah, okay. So it's more about them than a cause at that point. That's how I looked up to them. Because one was an athlete, the other was a bookworm. And I wanted to be like both of them. They taught me how to stand. Even though my sister doesn't agree, they taught me how to talk to girls. even though I didn't put it into practice until later. He was too busy playing basketball. He was on the court. Taking your time. So it started with them and then it moved on to basketball coaches.

58:37I had a couple of really good young basketball coaches. Johnny Gage, who I thought was older than I was, ended up being closer to me in age. We were like 12 and 11 and 12 and he was 19. but he was, he held us accountable. He was fair and he cared about us. Do you remember any of the advice that they gave you? My uncles said, whenever you're standing on the street, never stand with your feet together. Always stand with one foot pointing forward and the other foot pointing at 10 o 'clock. Why is this? Explain this to me immediately. No, they didn't. No, listen. Is this someone coming to push you?

59:26Like, is this an attack situation? No, this wasn't. This turns out to be really true because you do public speaking, right? Yes. When you have to stand somewhere for a long time, if you stand with both of your legs under you, you can't stand as long as you can if you stand at 12 o 'clock and 10 o 'clock. They were right. They were right. He's true about the advice. Is that an elegant step? Yes, that's a man thing. It's a man thing. That is not a God. We cannot take that on. It could be a man thing. They didn't let me in the room for that lesson. That was something that stuck out in my mind for a long time.

1:00:06And then, of course, coaches giving you advice about how to play. And then other people outside of my dad. So it's mostly uncles. It's a lot of man advice stuff. Yeah, but this is so good. I mean, the men need different advice. Ain't it the truth? And we were just in a discussion about how we don't, we didn't get any inner advice as men back then. Because, you know, back then. It wasn't the thing. It wasn't the thing. They were teaching you how to stand. You know what they were doing? They got your parents. They were teaching you how to be a leader. That's what, I mean. Under a male, an under a male paradigm.

1:00:44Of course. It is so different, isn't it? I mean, you have to do things very differently. There weren't women leaders back then. That's true. She's 61. I'm 63. Back then, the only female leaders you saw were in the classroom. Is that true? Just think about it. It was very few female police officers, firefighters, very few women in leadership positions. And they had to be in the church at the choir. You saw people in those categories in the education field, but you never saw them in, you know. This is why we're in the mess we're in. My dad would take me to his job and there were no women there. But, you know, there were a lot of people outside of my parents who sort of showed me the way.

1:01:38Showed you the way. Michelle, I wanted to switch gears a bit because I was looking back at your career and all of the chapters that you've had. And I wondered if you ever thought about where you might be now had public life not intervened. Yeah, I mean, I probably and public life and Barack Obama hadn't intervened. Right. Because I was on my box checking path, just like because when you grow up in a working class family, We didn't have, I didn't have parents who could show me what was possible. You know, my mom used to joke after I was 10, she was like, well, you're on your own, kid. So meeting Barack was someone outside of the box checking paradigm, right?

1:02:24He had been a community organizer before he went to law school. He had taken a gap year. He had worked in bank. He had done so much and he wasn't interested in the typical trajectory. So when I was also starting to ask this why in my career, it was around the time that I met him. And he opened up a whole world of possibility of how to think about life. So, yeah, if I had met him. Do you think he changed the way you thought about what you were going to do? I think he gave me courage to take the step away. I think. How did he do that? You know, because we had started dating and there was also the question of how do I afford to take the step away?

1:03:11Right. Because you're making good money and I still had debt. I mean, our combined student loan debt was more than our first mortgage after we got married. And because we didn't stay on the monetary path, we both went into public service. We didn't pay off our debt until Barack wrote Dreams from My Father and became a bestseller. Right. We would you know, this is the massive amount of student loan debt that we had. We were in our late 30s, 40s. Right. Because we got off the money making path and I worked in the city and every job I took, I made less money, but I was more and more fulfilled. so I think had I not met him and his view was we'll figure this out together we got each other's backs I think that was the first step into let me give this a try no way you disagree?

1:04:06please tell us I love my brother-in-law she would have made that move eventually herself because we all have that thought process she would have developed the courage to make it on her own Perhaps. But the question was, where would I be? I don't I don't know. I mean, I maybe I would have taken the leap. And but if I couldn't afford to. Right. If I found myself still struggling to pay my bills, I might have gone back. I might have gone back because I might have been like, you know what? I'm struggling with this lower salary. But I wouldn't have been as happy. Yes, no doubt. I wouldn't have been as fulfilled.

1:04:49I wouldn't have felt this level of purpose. I mean, with every job I took, I was going deeper into my own community, my own city, learning it in ways that I never knew existed. I mean, I feel like I know Chicago inside and out because through working for the city and Department of Planning and Development, working with the mayor, running a nonprofit organization, I have literally set foot in every community in the Chicagoland area. and most people don't do that. Most people live in their communities. They're born and raised. If you're born and raised on the South side, you don't know what the North side is.

1:05:29You never go to the West side. The world of the city opened up to me. And so it made it easy then to try new things. It prepared me to be the first lady of the United States because after doing all this stuff outside of law, being the first lady of the United States was easy in comparison. You know, I had started nonprofit organizations. I had worked in city government before where I had to start stuff from scratch and work in on projects that I knew nothing about and had to learn on the spot, you know, learning how to build teams and work with teams. So by the time I got to become the first lady, it was like another startup, nonprofit, you know, where I knew how to define a mission and a vision and how to develop a strategy and build a team and to execute against a set of goals.

1:06:21I mean, that's how I approached my eight years. It was like it's a proper business. It's a business and we are going to get things done. We're going to understand our mission. We're like a small subsidiary within this big, you know, administration that is run by my husband. So I had to think in terms of strategies and initiatives that would complement what he was doing and not compete with what he was doing. And I had to do it with basically no staff because the first lady doesn't have a budget. Well, I was used to that. I worked in nonprofits, you know, where you had to raise everything. You're not going to make it work.

1:06:53Yeah, to figure out how to, you know, cross over into other agencies and use their resources to get things done in healthy eating. I mean, it was an entrepreneurial and very familiar endeavor. Were you able to do forward planning? Like, could you look beyond the eight years and say, OK, here's what's going to happen the minute I'm out of office? Well, that's where the initiatives came in, right? So with Let's Move, for example, we established a separate nonprofit organization, the Partnership for a Healthier America, knowing that there had to be a place for this work to go once we were out of the White House.

1:07:33Because it's that important. It's that important. And it wasn't going to it wasn't going to be solved in eight years. And as we saw, once I got out of office and there wasn't a push, you know, food companies started reneging on what they were doing and things start to roll back to unravel. Exactly. The Partnership for a Healthier America is a separate nonprofit that exists today. I'm an honorary chair, but I don't run it for our girls education initiative. That's where the Girls Opportunity Alliance was developed because I knew that was going to be work that would continue to happen in a nonprofit way.

1:08:12So my point being is that everything had to have a future when we started it, right? Because it didn't feel to me like it made sense to start an initiative on issues that couldn't be solved in one or two terms, which is no issue. There's nothing that you can work on on the planet that's going to be, which a lot of people don't understand, that's going to be resolved in a presidential term or two. Change happens over generations, right? And that's also something, whether we like it or not, you make a forward movement and then a step backward and then three steps forward and then 10 steps backwards and you're still moving forward.

1:08:53Right. But it doesn't happen all under one, one president or one first lady. You know, so all my initiatives were like, yeah, we're going to get this started, you know, but it's got to be finished on the outside. You've got to pass the baton where leadership comes in. Right. Why do we have leadership? We need people we can pass the baton to. We can't keep doing this. You know, we get to an age where our voices aren't even connected with what's going on. I'm 61. Yeah. I'm not 40 something. And it's OK that I don't know everything or don't understand. Pass the baton. Pass it. Pass it over. To Emma.

1:09:29Let's go. It's your turn. You run, girl. I'm like, let me go. Let me at him. You know? And so we don't want to compete with young leaders. No. We want to move out of the way. You want to enable them. Absolutely. I want to get out of the way. Your turn. No, but you built this incredible foundation for so many people to be able to do this important work. Craig, I wanted to ask you, I wonder if there was ever a time, given Michelle's public prominence and what happened, because she's still your sister as all this is going on, was there ever a time that it impacted you personally or professionally?

1:10:03and just, you know, because I'm somebody who works with her husband and I've worked with my other family members in the past. Did you ever stir feelings of envy or jealousy? Did you ever have any of that? No, I thought you were going somewhere else with this question. No. Well, answer that one then. No. Give it wherever the tea is. I'll take it. Never a feeling of envy. Okay. Where I thought you were going with that was, was there ever a time where her success or their success bled into what I was doing in a negative way? And it was all the time because half the people didn't like them, right?

1:10:49Which made them not like me, you know? And I will tell you an example how I knew this. I didn't really pay attention to this until I was on the plane with the athletic director at Colorado, which was another team in our league. I coached at Oregon State. And she said to me, she said, Craig, I don't know how you do it. She said, you were in our arena and I watched your every move. and every time you stood up to say something to the referees, our whole crowd focused on you. And I was like, yeah, I get it. I get it. It's because of them. But most of the feedback because of them was positive. So I was never envious.

1:11:42Are you kidding? I was riding the wave. I was proud. Yeah. And they're such likable people. Right. I felt like you felt like I felt like inspired. I was inspired. And I knew firsthand that what they were doing was they were trying to do the best for the most people. Yes. Not the best for them. No, for the most people. Or not just the best for our side, but the best for everybody. and that's just admirable. So now I never felt envious or jealous or, that's an interesting question. I don't know if anybody's ever asked me that. I don't think anybody said that. Well, because a lot of families, you know, with success.

1:12:29I mean, they do. They get envious, they get jealous. You know, one makes it, they have to feed everyone else. It starts to get difficult. Listen, and - Just saying that maybe that happens in some family. But you know, we joke all the time. She grew up as Craig Robinson's little sister. Yes, fair. And now I'm Michelle Obama's big brother. It's so true. It's time. It's so true. It's time. It is complete payback, but I got the better of the deal. Facts. I'm just going to say. I got the better of the deal. You may have. Michelle, what I wanted to ask you, because I think this is so critical for this specific audience, so many women feel such unbelievable pressure at the time in your life when you were in the White House in those years, when you are having to balance raising a young family, you know, being a wife to the leader of the free world, to, you know, your own career ambitions and all your own aspirations as well.

1:13:26And I wonder if there is like a critical and honest piece of advice that you can give or that you can share based on your own journey and what you would say to women that are trying to seemingly have it all, do it all, live to the fullest. All right. Well, I've said this a lot. It's impossible to have it all. So stop with that. First of all, you can have it all over a period of time, but this impatience and this feeling of like, I've got to be, I've got to have the exact job at the top of the game. And I want to be the best mom to all to the, you know, I want to be there, be at all the stuff. And I want to look my best and be in my best shape and be emotionally in tune.

1:14:15La la la la la. And my marriage has got to be on point. Like it's, it doesn't, you can't do all of that. There are trade-offs and it's okay. You know, if we're blessed and we can take care of ourselves emotionally and physically, life is long and you can have chapters and you don't lose out because you didn't read the whole book in one sitting. Each chapter can be really special. When my kids were little and I was sort of ready to drive in my career, but Barack was a state senator and then he ran for Congress and loss, and then he was a U.S. senator, he was away more than he was home. I got to a point where I said, I can't be in the highest driving point in my career life.

1:15:08I just can't. So I left running a nonprofit that I enjoyed running, but running a nonprofit is an all-consuming, and it's, the nonprofit didn't have a lot of money, and I needed flexibility. Did you do it happily, or was there resentment there? There was a little resentment, but I was happy because I love my girls and I love the time that I spent with them. And I felt more at peace with that decision because it was the right thing for them and ultimately for me, because it gave me balance that I needed at that time. And I use myself as an example. I did that and it didn't stop my growth. It didn't.

1:15:52You know, I went on after that. I became an associate dean. I was the vice president and head of community outreach for the University of Chicago Hospitals. As the girls grew and I felt more secure, I started realigning myself. People don't realize they can take a little pause. Like life doesn't really give you the feeling right now that you can just be like, hold please. That's right. For whatever reason. And you can, and you don't have to stop. Like I didn't stop. I thought about quitting completely. And then I got an opportunity to get a good job that I enjoyed in a flex situation. I negotiated flexibility for myself.

1:16:32I negotiated flexibility first that wasn't flexibility. It just was less pay. And I was irritated at that because I got half the salary and was still doing a full-time job. So I learned from that. I was like, never again. I'm too much of a driver to ever get paid less. So the next job I was like, pay the full salary, but give me carte blanche over my schedule. I will get the job done, but I'm picking up my kids from school. I'm going to the Halloween parade and I might not be here on Friday, but I'll be here when I need to be here. So pay me. Right. I learned that. Right. So I would just say out there to women, it can come.

1:17:15And if you are choosing to drive, which that's that's a choice, then don't parent from guilt. Yeah, that's really important parenting advice. You know, I'm so interested in your parenting advice because between the two of you, there are six children. And, you know, I think so much about resilience and independence and what we want for our kids. What are those parenting principles that, again, looking back that you go, this was so important that I did this? Yeah. I will start with not parenting from guilt. Because they feel it. Your kids feel that. If they feel you weak. Yeah, they do. You know, I always say kids have nothing to do but watch us.

1:17:59Yes, it's really, really. They don't have jobs. They don't have responsibility. They're watching. They are figuring. It's like, ooh, she breaks down when I do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ooh, they don't work together on that issue. Let me manipulate that, right? I always say, don't let your kids outlast you. They're just kids. So you can, if they have questions, answer them until they have no more questions. Our parents were really good at that. And you don't have to give them sort of the college essay, but give them answers and keep them asking questions and just outlast them. And outlast them emotionally, too.

1:18:39Don't let your kid tantrum you into captivity. You know, I mean, you got to you know, if you're going to be a busy parent, then you got to have some backbone. You can't parent out of guilt. You can't give up on the foundation and the structure they need because you're not providing it every day. But that means you have to be more clear about it. You know, even with the girls in the White House, I mean, I could have felt so bad for them. I mean, they had secret service that they didn't, you know, they had to, they spent their childhood surrounded by men with guns. They were always out there in the wild on their own, taking on incoming as little girls.

1:19:21But I couldn't. I was thinking about who I needed them to be when this was over. And it couldn't be some bratty kids who didn't know how to hear no. They lived in a house with a florist and maids and cooks and chefs. Yeah, it's like no more. They could have, you know, they lived in a museum, you know. So I had to be like, who do I want them to be when this is over? But that is great advice. Like thinking about who do you want your kids to be and not like parenting in the moment? Because I feel like there is so much guilt and there's so much immediacy to how we make decisions now that sometimes you're like, how do I just make this thing better now?

1:19:57As opposed to being like, what am I trying to erase? How do I appease them now so that they stop yelling? Right. And the thing I've always thought about is how do I make them empathetic people who understand boundaries and have a work ethic, which means that I had to create no's. You know, the girls would tell me sometimes mom would just say no because. And I would because it's like there are no real no's when you live in the White House. Right. So sometimes no would just no just because you need to know how to sit and know. because most of life is going to be no. So you're going to practice it.

1:20:36Can you do that? No. Why? They're doing it because you need to know what no is. Now go sit in your room and think about why do you have to have it, right? What is your why? Why can't you hear no? And that hurts us, you know, punishments, you know, and sticking with punishments. You don't shy away from difficult conversations. Like, are you like that everywhere in your life? because I think it's so important. I think every friend of mine would say, hell yeah. And sometimes it's exhausting. Do you say that? Right? Hell yeah. As the brother. Hell yeah. Having difficult conversations, saying no, not people pleasing.

1:21:15How have you trained yourself to be like that? I mean, it's very clear that that's just who you are. Yeah, maybe you can help. I just think it's... I think it's the way she was raised. My mom raised her to be tough. and my mom. So how do we make women tougher? Like, how do we, how do we make ourselves more resilient? I don't know how to make them tougher because I think they're tough already. But my mom. You're in that family. That's why. But you know what I mean, right? You know, like some people don't, they don't find it so easy to tell their kids no. They don't find it so easy to say, no, I don't want to do that.

1:21:52That's not going to, I won't find enjoyment in that. You seem to have a very, like you're at ease with, saying, no, I don't want this. This isn't right to me. Well, it was practice. It's a muscle that you build over time. And I think part of it was like when you are raised as a poor black kid from a working class community, people will set their bar low for you. You know, they will just assume that you can or you don't. And I think there was a part of me that grew up as a fighter. Every time someone assumed based on nothing that I demonstrated that I shouldn't have this or couldn't do that. So as I say, I have a, I'll show you attitude, maybe because I'm the youngest sister.

1:22:37I was never treated like that in my household. My brother was always a, you're coming. My father was here to put on these boxing gloves. I think, so in my home, I was a can doer. But then when you get out in life and the first people you meet are like, I don't think you can read. It's like, why would you assume that I can't read, you know? So that would make me angry, actually. And for some kids, that would make them feel defeated. So I think some of it is temperament. Some of it is that I had this really strong foundation of love, not just from my mother, but my father. And so I came back to a home that said, of course you can.

1:23:18Those people are crazy. Not everybody, not every girl has that. Not every young girl, as we see through our work at the Obama Presidential Center, there are millions of girls all over the world who are being told for no good reason that you can't and you're not and you'll never. But they're still like me and like you, because you knew in your head, Emma, when you were four or five or seven, what you were completely capable of. Oh, I know. And every girl knows that. And it's the world that turns us into mush. It's the world that makes us doubt ourselves. It's our societies that oppress us and make us feel anxious and small, right?

1:24:00And if you don't have a place that's lifting you up like I did, then you could just become smaller and smaller and smaller. and you doubt yourself and your voice gets minuscule and you're afraid of your own kids. Societally, we are in a position as women where that can be the norm unless there's something that breaks you out of that. And I think my something was this amazing foundation of, yes, you can in my household and a temperament that went along with it. So I think I am inherently a fighter for myself and therefore a fighter for other people. So when I'm talking to my friends or, you know, any women, I'm like, hey, come on, we can.

1:24:49Why? Why can't? Why are you? What is it? Why are you crying? What is this about? Let's get it together. Let's get it together. You know, and with my girls, it's like, no, you can't have it. It's OK. You don't need to whine. You'll be okay. And I love you. It's like, I can say no to my girls because guess what? I really love you. I am always here. Yes. And I know that. So I don't owe you anything. I am here for you. I love you. You know it. We're friends, you know, so I can, you can get some bad news from your mom. You can get the bad news. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. What is the, what is the advice that you would wish that more young people had right now?

1:25:31Hmm. That they have everything it takes. The advice for kids is like, if you have a voice in your head that says that there's something special in you, believe it. Believe that voice before it gets taken away from you. You know, believe the truth of who you were brought into this world as. Because we all have that little voice. When we're very young, it starts early. And you just want to tell kids it's the other stuff that's wrong. Yes. The thing in you that is telling you, you know better, you can do better, you deserve better. Believe that voice over everything else. And go to the light. Find the voice that's telling you differently, you know, wherever it's coming from.

1:26:26If you're not getting it at home, go find it at school. Go find it in the coach. Find it in the gym. Go to church. Seek the light, you know. Don't let that darkness drown you out. That is fabulous advice. I've been thinking about it so much because we come from very different but very similar places. And when you're from humble beginnings and you do a journey, you have a successful journey, there's an inevitability of having to leave something behind or some people behind. And it can be really, really heavy. And so I wonder how you guys have navigated, because you're both so incredibly successful.

1:27:09How have you navigated leaving people behind on the way or leaving where you're from behind? That's a good one. I would hope that we haven't left people behind, but I think the folks we've left behind are the folks we needed to leave behind. And we've kept the people who we want around us and who mean a lot to us, we've kept them around. And I think about Misha and Barack. every Thanksgiving, they invited our whole family to the White House for Thanksgiving. And so you only got left behind if you were supposed to be left behind. And there were some instances. There were ways out. I mean, there were ways out.

1:28:03But I have this conversation a lot with minority kids going to college in particular, because that can be not understanding the need to leave behind the people who need to be left behind gets a lot of young people in trouble. Not in trouble in, you know, legal ways. It's just, you know, we have kids who go to college and they take their student loan money and they're trying to pay the light bill at home, you know. They're grappling with survivor's remorse. And the thing that I remind them is that, you know, you got to put your oxygen mask on first. And it's a long climb to get to a place where you can really, really help others.

1:28:50And if you stop too soon and try to help too early, you'll all fall, you know. And that's not leaving people behind. That's just being real about when you are really capable of helping anyone at all. And I tell folks, we were blessed, at least in our family. We didn't have people. My mother wouldn't accept stuff from us, you know? I mean, it wasn't until after we got out of the White House that we were in a position to buy my mom a safe place to live with a doorman, which she didn't understand. She needed, you know, you're the former first grandmother. You can't just live in the hood, you know?

1:29:35But I say that to young people to say that's how long it took before we really could afford to bring others along financially. Oh, yeah. Right. So it's just I remind young people, you know, who don't come from a lot that you probably can't afford to help everybody. Your real answer is probably, I can't help you yet because I don't have two feet on the ground. And when you don't come from a lot, a little bit looks like a lot, but it's still a little bit. So I just, you know, I try to remind young people, don't rush to be the savior until you're really, really solid. And that could take much longer than you think.

1:30:21And then when you really get to a place where you're rock solid and you're taking care of your own business, your own debt, and you have some leftover help then. But you can help with your time in other ways. There are other ways other than financial help and support, mentoring, being there now for cousins. We've set up scholarship funds for cousins and friends, kids, and so on and so forth. in the world. But I'm 60. I couldn't have done it at your age. I couldn't have done it in my 30s when some people, when I was a corporate lawyer and people would have started counting my thinking, oh. Future checks.

1:31:05And it's like, no, I got lots of debt that I got to pay off before I can help you with your mortgage, right? And that's, you know, learning how to say no, too. And no being a real no. And no being a real no. It's a lesson. Michelle, do you still believe when they go low, we go high. Yes. Yes. I have to.

1:31:31Do you still believe it with the same conviction? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Emma. Okay, good. Fine. Because, you know, we're trying out here. We're trying. Because guess what? Going high is a long-term strategy and it's the better way to show up in the world. Because when you don't, When you lead with fear and bitterness and exclusion, no one wins, you know? No one feels like they're winning right now, truly, you know? Amen. So, yeah, I still believe, you know, and it is a strategy. It doesn't mean you don't emotionally feel low at times. No, no, we can feel low. You can feel it. We're just going to go.

1:32:14But when you show up in the world, show up high. I still believe that we shall continue okay I'm going to take you to rapid fire alrighty what is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning I sadly check my phone no you do not I have kids like straight away I do I do because over the night it's like did somebody need something is everybody alive so I do check my phone Greg what do you do I play a variation of games because I'm on two text chains with people. I do Wordle, Connections, Strands, and Spelling Bee. And I also do four picks in one word. You are keeping that brain fired out here.

1:33:06Trying to keep my little pea brain fired up. Is it the same before you go to bed? What's the last thing you do? No, no. The last thing I do before I go to bed is brush my teeth. He's so specific. I love the specificity. That's just rapid fire. What do you want? Michelle's going to say something more romantic. She can't do rapid fire. This is going to be tortoise fire. I am Michelle in a rapid fire. Guess what I do. I kiss my husband goodnight. Oh, that's nice. That is sweet. I love that. That's so nice. What are you currently both aspiring for in your business life? Oh, I'm aspiring that the initiatives that are business initiatives are successful and add value in a meaningful way.

1:34:00so you know we've started plesie nutrition and we want the drinks to be profitable but we want them to deliver in terms of good quality lower sugar um that's your initiative with them that's your business with steph curry right yeah yeah we have our new hydration drink out and it's you know providing quality without the sugar um because that's the point like we can do both we can do Yes, we can. Well, and we can do good. I am very into that for you. Yeah. Do you care about money when it's those type of things? Sorry, I'm bad at rapid fire. Yeah, see, see. Sorry, Greg, I'm bad at rapid fire. I still want to be, I'm internally competitive.

1:34:44I want the things I do to be successful. I think Barack is the same way, Steph and Aisha are the same way. We do it, we want to do it well. We want it to be successful. And successful in a business setting is market share, right? Yes, it is. Yeah, it matters. It does. It matters. I'll team up with that one and say, to use one of your words, impactful. I want to be impactful. At this age, this stage of the game, I want to be impactful. And I want to make sure I'm developing the bench, the younger crew who's coming along. I want to leave some folks around who can take care of this place. And what are you aspiring for in your personal life?

1:35:27rapid rapid rapid good health good health and uh to get these last two boys oh yeah raised as well as we did the first two and they can be on their own uh that's a big aspiration i think my wife kelly and i would agree on that one yeah yeah personal for me it's uh I am grasping for deeper mental and physical health, taking care of this vessel that I have. That's a great aspiration. It really is. What is a book that changed your life? Oh, I know this one. Firestarter by Stephen King. And the reason is I had gotten through elementary school, high school and college without being a real reader. I read to pass tests and that book turned me into an actual reader.

1:36:31Wow. And it happened in Stockport, England, Manchester, England, because the four channels that you had went off at 11 o 'clock. So I had to do something and I, and, and, uh, my family bought me a bunch of books and they bought me one of them was Stephen King's Firestarter. That was that I was hooked. I mean, good habit to get hooked on. Yes. Right. And it's, it's one of the, it's never too late to become a real reader. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm a lifelong reader. I'm extremely dyslexic, but for whatever reason, I could read big books from a very young age and always did. Yeah. Michelle, for you, book that changed your life?

1:37:15Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. I read it every couple of years. And, you know, she's one of my favorite authors. And that book is deep and complex. And the characters stay with you. So what is something that you valued when you were starting out your career that you don't now? Pleasing others, I would say. Not letting money drive my decisions. That's a great one. That is a great one. All right, final question for both of you. What is something that you value now that you didn't back then?

1:38:02Freedom to do whatever I want. I mean, I guess because I didn't have that freedom. So now I have the true freedom. Now that my kids are raised and you're not there yet and my big work is done, right? I feel like I've earned the right to do what I want. And now I have to figure out what that is completely, right? Yeah. I, on the other hand, was able to figure out what I wanted to do early and got a chance to do it. So I value now my free time. Very precious. I didn't value it before, but I do now. Spoken like a true father of four. Yeah, really. You and me both. With two still, one still in middle school.

1:39:05Like, good luck. Good luck to you. It's fun on this side. I could be like mom. It's good on this side. We're all waiting. Thank you both. You are amazing. Thank you. This was a lot of fun. This was great.

1:39:19If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Rees-Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker.

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