How to Build a Beauty Brand People Believe In (ft. Tower 28, Danessa Myricks Beauty, Crown Affair)

23:42What does that actually look like? I think so much of it is exactly that. It's instinct. Like, you can look at the data, but I think we as founders, we can also kind of feel it, right? And I think, again, with feedback, so much of it is you have to think about who's saying it so you know how much of it is for you or for somebody else, right? Because I think we all have bad reviews. We have trolls. Sometimes the bad reviews are valid, right? There's something in there that you're like, oh, is there something I should glean from it? But I think just to quickly go back to the problem with virality, I think it's getting the product into the wrong hands.

24:16And so if you get the product and somebody buys them, they don't know why they're buying it. And they're maybe not the right person for that product. That is actually, I think, a lot of times where you get that negative feedback because they're like, I'm using, so our SOS spray is a product that you know and love, but it's sitting in the makeup section. We are a makeup brand. Oh, so people are trying to hold their makeup with it? Like fixing spray? People are like... Oh no, honeys, you used that after the gym. You used that after you washed your face and you... By the way, I'm sitting between my two favorite sprays right now.

24:46Oh, I feel like it's amazing. Very different use cases. Yes. Right? And so I think that is the problem with morality is you get something out there, but people don't really know. They buy it, they spray it, and they're like, I don't think it's that good of a setting spray. I'm like, well, it's not a setting spray. It's not a setting spray. And that's interesting because when you have something that's almost like a category-defying product and you've actually got to teach and educate people what it is, how to use it, what the best use case is, that's a different thing. And if you're coming in because you're part of the community, you've taken the time with the brand to understand, to know what they're about.

25:19If you're not, then you're absolutely right. It's tricky. It's really tricky. the comment section. Because they will... You in their community. No, like from day one, I'm reading every comment, every DM, and I'm doing my own like gut math from the words that are saying. But I think when things go wrong and when somebody has a negative comment, the best thing to do is to respond to it. If one person is saying it, there's somebody else that's saying it or thinking it too. And so I want to talk to all of those people because one bad experience can turn them away from the brand as a whole. But just an educational moment can fix it all.

25:53So what does that look like? Give me an example. Give me a real example. I mean, one of our most viral products, the Blurring Bomb Powder, which is like, it's a new category. It's a new product. Like there's nothing that existed like it before. There's no one for one. So there's lots of questions always. And when somebody has a bad experience, I go right, I take their video, I clip it. I'll DM them and say exactly what happened. And I will clip their video and say, Hey, did you guys see this video? She's actually right. You know, because this doesn't work when you do this, this, or this, but if you do it this way, you're going to have the best experience.

26:31So here's what I love you to do. I want you to use it again. And I'm going to send you this and this to use with it. And then tell me, come back and tell me what your experience is. And whenever I do that, the comments are like, yeah, she's right. I use it every day. I've never had that happen because you use this instead of this, like your community jumps in and then rallies with you. And then that thing doesn't just hang in the air. There's no running from it. Like if you're confident about what you're making, who it's for to your point, um, and you're, you're there to educate, like, it's not a problem for me.

27:02So good or bad, I'm responding. For sure. And I feel like there must be so many decisions that you make as founders that essentially your customer isn't going to understand. And so I'd love to really know, like when have you made a decision that perhaps customers didn't initially understand, but you thought that it would be absolutely essential to what you were doing? Launching in Sephora. Yeah. Oh, really? Same off. People like to call my brand, like the brand of the people, because the community literally built this brand with me. And a lot of people only know like the last few years of the brand, but I've been building the brand since early 2000s in my basement.

27:37So there are those people who are like this, she's building for us. Like she's building for the pros. Like we've, we've been there with her. Like I belong to them. Because you're an artist. Yeah. It's like, you are a makeup artist. You've been in the game for the longest time. People have a relationship to your work. Exactly. Then they have a relationship to you and then they have a relationship to the brand that you feel. Exactly. And they were like, oh, she's launching into Fora. She's never going to make the kinds of things that she made before. She's going to dumb things down. She's not going to be as interesting.

28:08Like those are all the things that came up at that moment. And it was a scary moment for me because I was like, wow, that is my core community. And they're like, wow, she sold out a little bit. It wasn't everybody, but it was a lot of people. So how did you deal with that in the moment? I'm interested because again, you are, you're beloved by your community. And when you've got a big opportunity like that on the table, there must be a part of you that goes, listen, I've been in my basement, but I I want to stay in the basement, right? We need to come up. We need to get there. We need to like do things and we need to move forward.

28:41So what's the decision making look like? And at what point do you understand, actually, I need to move forward for me and for the future and for all the customers that I'm yet to have? It's kind of like if you have a new baby. When you have a new baby, you can't forget the old baby. You have the old baby. You have to put in more work to let them know that you're here for them. I haven't forgot you. You're the reason why I get to have the new baby, right? So I had to double down for the community that was there for me. And I think a big thing that changed, too, is, you know, anybody who followed me for a while, you know, I like being behind the scenes.

29:14I wasn't somebody who was on social and talking. And if I was, you only saw my fingers. But I think when I launched in Sephora, everything changed. I started having a conversation out loud with my community on social. And I think that made all the difference because I didn't want them making assumptions of why I did a thing. I wanted them to know the soul behind and the reason why I did a thing. I absolutely love that you talk about that because I speak to so many first time founders that are in their 40s or in their 50s. And they're like, Emma, I cannot do this social media thing. And I'm like, yeah, you can.

29:45You absolutely can. Now, you're going to find your lane. You don't need to dancing and tick tocking and doing what the 20 year olds are doing. But you found such a beautiful lane and a comfort level. Like it just feels like you. You have your way of speaking, your artistry is on display, and you found your lane at your stage of life and the stage of your career that you're at that just makes so much sense for your brand. I love that you were able to do that. Diana, one of the things that I think about you is that you have such a distinct point of view that you really own, and you can really tell that you weren't following what was out there.

30:22You were like, here is a space that I believe should be occupied and I'm going to make the products that I think will do well. And I think that there's so much power in having such a point of view and an area that you're passionate about. How do you know to go with your instinct over the trends that are happening? And how do you protect your own taste level when you're just starting out? It is the only way I want to build this thing is I want to make products and a brand universe that I want to occupy. And it's really hard. I have to tell you, you have to like metaphorically sit on your hands because it's really easy to see what's working for someone else.

31:01Oh, that worked for them. Let me mimic them. Oh, that worked for them. And if it is not in alignment with who you are, even you mentioning the social media thing, like I don't sing and dance. I don't really do that. I just don't, I just don't want to wake up doing that. And I love that I have friends who do that and it works for them, but it's the same with building a brand. You have to build it in alignment with who you are. And the taste piece has been really interesting because as you grow and scale and show up in places like a Sephora, I've gone through a very personal journey that's like my taste isn't everybody's taste.

31:32And the confidence over time that I found though, is like my people find me and we find each other. Do you think that it's possible right now to build a major beauty brand without the founder being a public figure? I mean, I'm literally the founder that you just mentioned. I am the woman who started at 40 and doesn't really do a ton of social media. I'm like literally the only person here who doesn't have a social person filming content of me right now. Is that true? You don't? There's so many people here, girls. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell. We're running the world. I don't know. I mean, I honestly look up to people who can do it.

32:09It's just not my lane. I actually love a podcast because I love a chat and I love depth and I love conversation. I've been on panels. I read there's a version of it that I show up in but there's a version of it I don't and I think that has been a really conscious decision for me because it's not both what I enjoyed it too and it's not what I like to do but I love that you say that because even as you speak like I am I'm like in shock because I'm like oh yeah like you you don't because we just get so you know we're just like so in it and you literally just go like, that's not for me. No, I mean, I do a little bit of it, but I do the version of it that I am comfortable doing.

32:49So like, I won't do like a get ready with me. I'll probably never sit there and put makeup on in front of a camera for you. But the version I do was I will tell my story and, and that's really true to me. But I think it's just like what Diana said, I'm not dancing. No, but you know what? Doing your makeup on camera is really hard. And I give credit to all these people. I can't do it because I don't understand like where I'm supposed to look. Like I need them like a mirror. Like when my team have asked me to do that with the fight, like I can't know. It's just, it's some things I think are generational.

33:20What I've found with two things. One, you may not show your face, but you lead with your story. Your story is so clear. And so I don't think there's anybody who doesn't know the origin of your brand. And I think being found a forward It's just another way of telling your story. You know what I mean? So I think for you, that makes sense. But I think, you know, what I've learned in my experience, I'm very introverted. But what I found is that it connects me deeper to my audience because they are that person, too. So I struggled doing my makeup to camera. Guess what? So today it's really about like, what is this bigger story that you're trying to tell?

33:53For me, initially, I was like I started this business because I needed to make money and I need to fuel like my family. and I saw that there were people who are missing. But as I grow in the brand and this community grows, I know that there's more for me to offer. There's more that I want to give. There's more stories that I'm telling. And so I know that there are a lot of women out there who are like me changing their whole life all over again at 30, at 40, who need to see somebody else doing that same thing. There are a lot of people who are just frankly, just scared, just like I was. Seeing me show up makes them less scared.

34:31I know that my role as a founder is more than just building this brand. Like I'm, I'm helping a lot of people see themselves in a different perspective, a different way, because they see me as a single mom who started her life all over many times being successful and showing up even when I'm scared, they want to do it too. So I kind of, me showing up the way I do now is a little different because my purpose is bigger. Yeah. who I'm trying to serve has gotten bigger. It's not just the customers consuming my product. It's a way bigger audience that I didn't know was there. You have got that so right.

35:11Now, I really want to get into the nuts and bolts. There's some juice here and everybody knows I'm just like chomping at the bit to talk about money. Hello. I can't believe I made it this long. But what I really want to understand is fundamentally what changes within your business when a partner like a Sephora comes on board and what does it demand from your business operationally and financially? Because for so many people, that's where things start to crumble, right? Either they're not finding the right retail distribution or they find it and they're like, damn, like this, there's, you know, it's not the right time in the business.

35:48So I'd really love to understand what that's meant for each of you and to talk about it in the most open and honest way that you can. Sephora made our business in such a big way. We launched in April of 2019. And like I said, I didn't have any influence. So it was like an Instagram mood board and a Shopify template. And that's all it was. And I didn't even email my friends to tell them this happened. I was like, oh, let's just see what happens. And we were in Sephora.com by September. We were in every single store at Sephora on a half shell by March of 2020. me. So we went into full distribution and we went in fast and Sephora likes to say, and I think it's true.

36:27It's harder to get into Sephora than it is to get into Harvard. It is a really difficult. I had a background of working with Sephora for a long time. So I had relationships, but it didn't mean I knew I was going to get into Sephora. Right. And when I know, um, and I didn't know if I was going to be able to stay. I mean, literally the whole time I was like, even when we were on Sephora.com, I was like, how many sales do I have to do? Are you don't hit my numbers. And what is the expectation? Like, I'm like a good Asian girl. I'm like, what are the grades that I should be getting in order to stay here?

36:58You understand this because you've been on the other side. Your experience that all of the incredible brands that you were at, like you, you know how this is. So it's not surprising to you. We've all done it a little bit differently, but like I worked for other people for a long time and I really learned as like a number two and I got really close to founders and I had a seat at the table. And I think that was the way I got more comfortable with jumping into it. But the thing that Sephora does, I think is really incredible is it really creates discipline because you then have to get on a track of like spring, summer, fall holiday.

37:30You have to know when you're going to ship product because it takes six weeks to get to, you know, everything becomes much more of a work back schedule and you have to get really organized when you're on a D2C site. It's like, I don't know, what do you, what do you want to do? Like I live for D2C. So fun fact, but Amy was the first founder, Sephora founder I talked to after I found out that we were going to be launching in Sephora. And I remember standing on my balcony in Miami talking to Amy being like, what are all the things I need to know? Because I came from D2C land. And by the way, I love our D2C e-commerce.

38:02Like when you were even talking about earlier, like there's so much we can do that is just harder to do at retail, whether that's like limited edition products. We have a cleansing scrub that is so extraordinary, but we can't sell it in retail stores because the margins don't make sense. And I refuse to make the product worse. So there are certain things that I really get joy out of with DTC, but Sephora land is like, it is like, it's that feeling like going to Disney in a way where it's like, they're the best at doing this. They know exactly what they're doing. And when you enter that world, it is kind of like putting on your big girl pants.

38:33Like you go from like, this is fun. This is cute to like, Oh, we really need to show up. And I'd never like worked with Sephora ever. It's so funny because I remember founders texting me being like, your end cap looks so beautiful. It looks so beautiful. I'm like, but it's so, it's not optimized. Like it was this beautiful art display, but it was not up to code, if you will, of like optimizing this stuff. So the last three years for me has just been a journey of like really understanding what works in store. It's been low and slow. You know, I didn't have the choice. We didn't launch on next big thing.

39:04I know some people get next big thing. You get different exposures in the store and animations. We were given 55 end caps, which an end cap for those listening, you know, So it was like a full, you know, a full proper shelf display. We had four shelves, but 55, I'm like, how are we going to reach people? All this marketing, they walk into stores, it's not there, but I'm so grateful for this journey. And I say this to all the Sephora founders, if you can grow over time going from 55 doors to two years later, 200 doors. So then 600 doors and you get to go into the store and talk to the beauty advisors and educate.

39:35It really does take time and it is a big learning curve, but it is such a gift for us. It is an entirely new audience, an entirely new community. And I'm a little bit luckier because hair, I joke, is kind of like the Cinderella of the category. Like we're kind of, you know, the final, you know, category that people are coming in for, but to get people excited about that and build it with them has definitely changed my experience. I always say in retail, you want to earn and you want to learn. And learning can't be done with anything other than time. And Danessa, I wonder if you can talk to, because I feel like you are one of the brands in Sephora that actually brings in a bit of a different customer to perhaps what, you know, I guess like the day-to-day bread and butter of who the Sephora customer is.

40:19And so in my mind, and tell me if I'm wrong, like maybe slightly more of a bet, maybe again, you felt the pushback, right? From your community, but there's also that question mark, I guess, as you go in, like, is a brand like this with this type of audience going to be successful? A hundred percent. And it's so funny that you say that because when Sephora first reached out, it was like the end of 2019. Honestly, I missed like a million of their emails. They almost gave up on me because I was too busy building a business. I wasn't looking at the email. Finally, I got like the one last, hey, do you want to come here or not?

40:54Can we talk? But it was interesting because when they first presented it, I honestly, they will tell you that I was like, I don't think I'm nervous. I was like, because I've seen people launch in Sephora and fail. I've seen people who spent so much of their life building something on their own, their own DTC with their own audience. And they go there and everything falls apart. And so that was my biggest fear because at the time when we launched in Sephora, the brand has been around for 20 years already. It's the part that most people don't know. I had 500 SKUs. 500 SKUs? Yeah. That's crazy. Because on your own D2C, you can do whatever you want.

41:33I had a certain relationship with my audience. You want it? I got it. There was no six-month runway, a year, two years to make a product. What shade do you need? All right. Two weeks later. Guess what, guys? I got, you know, I had a different way of operating my business. I was like a true indie brand. And so I'm like, I go to Sephora. I'm going to be a fish out of water. And then also our products were 100 % different. There was no like as. Anything that we had, there was no like as in the store. And so it's kind of like getting married and moving into your husband's house. You're in somebody else's house right now.

42:08There's a whole new way that things work. It's not as comfortable. You have to learn a whole new way of being. And in the beginning, there was a lot of tension. Happy, healthy tension. There was never a fight. Like an amazing partner from day one. But it was me just fighting to stay who I was and to like hold on to my identity, like what this brand means and should look like for me versus, oh, but this is the amount of space that you have. And this is what we think will sell in our environment. And so honestly, the first year, even though we did really well, we grew super fast. Like we went from dot com to the next big thing to Gondol.

42:48So all in the same year, like it was just like, Because I think we were all surprised on how well we did. But that was, I think, the hardest year for me because there was a lot of conversations on all of the products that I think make Danessa Marix Beauty what it is, is not in this store. But all of my attention has to go to Sephora because they're goals. And so I can't like split my attention. I can't have multiple conversations. Like, what about all my other 400 SKUs? I can only talk about the ones that Sephora took. And then initially we had that tiny one shelf on the next big thing. I wasn't really telling the full story of my brand.

43:27I honestly felt when we launched in Sephora, I started from scratch all over again because it is a net new customer. This is not the customer that the Nessimar X Beauty had been servicing all over. So I had to learn how to re-communicate every single product so that it was digestible. like all of our assets, like things that I used to be able to say on social and everybody got like, what are you talking about? Literally, I started all over. So even though it was exciting, it was the scariest thing for me. And I almost like I was really afraid for like how we're showing up. It took a lot of conversations for us to align on.

44:06OK, please just take this. I know there's nothing like this in your store, but I guarantee you like that's what makes us special. If you put it there, you know, just just trust me. And when they did, we were able to align on like what we think the best fit is that year where we had that alignment, the brand for X in that one year. And I think that's the thing that everybody should understand. And you talked about what are those conversations like this is a relationship, but there's give and take on both sides and it needs to be healthy. It needs to be done with kindness and with love. There needs to be proof points.

44:41Like when Sephora didn't want to launch something, I launched it on my DTC and I'm like, see, told you I'm doing this. You guys can participate in this too. It was a lot of that.

44:55There's real history in American fashion and Macy's has pulled together a capsule this full that gives it a proper showcase. The collection brings in six designers, Tommy Hilfiger, Michael Kors and Donna Karan, three names that shaped a generation of American design alongside Jonathan Cohen, Theofilio and LaPointe, three of the more distinctive voices working in fashion right now. The mix is what makes it interesting. You have heritage, you have nostalgia, you have newer points of view that make the whole thing feel so current. This is exactly what full fashion should do, remind you of the pieces and the silhouettes you've always loved but give you a reason to see them differently.

45:33It's six different takes on full style, all exclusive to Macy's. And it's a smart move on Macy's part, putting the heritage of American design next to what's happening in it right now. Not many retailers can pull off a lineup like that. Whether you're looking for something timeless and tailored or a piece that feels a little more expressive, this is the kind of capsule that can bring something fresh into your wardrobe without feeling like you're chasing a trend. The collection launches on September 8th exclusively at Macy's, and it's only available for a limited time. Once these pieces are gone, they're gone.

46:05Head to Macy's.com or your local Macy's on September 8th to shop the collection. One thing I think people misunderstand about entrepreneurship is that the idea is really the hardest part. The hard part is building the infrastructure that allows that idea to reach people, to grow and to operate like a real business. 20 years ago, that meant a physical location, serious upfront capital and a lot of expertise you probably didn't have. Today, Shopify is one of the biggest reasons that that's changed. It's the commerce platform we use at Good American. It allows us to own our storefront, our customer relationships, and our data while still being discovered wherever people are already shopping, from social platforms to the shop app and even ChatGPT.

46:46That matters when you're launching new products and collections at the pace we do. Shopify keeps the commerce side moving so I can stay focused on the product, the brand, and what our customer actually wants next. If you're ready to build your idea, head to shopify.com slash aspire.

47:07What does it really look like when you know there's a ton of money and a ton of opportunity on the other side of the table, but perhaps it ain't the thing that you thought you were going to do? I mean, honestly, I've made every mistake. So there are times that I... Oh, let's talk about it. There are times that I've gone and done what Sephora has asked us to. And there's times that I've kind of stuck a little bit more with my gut and there's times that there's been a compromise and it's a little bit of everything, right? And the truth is like when you're doing really well and you're hot, they are much more amenable to what you want to do, right?

47:38And sometimes you're not right. So like for instance, we launched a product that was so juicy and like melty and I loved it on my lips. And then we launched it in a Sephora Favorites kit and we started looking at the actual reviews and the reviews were either like basically like a one or a five and it was like, I love it, I love it or that shit melted in my bag. And I was like, oh my God, this is my worst nightmare that it melted. And so we actually, and the truck was still coming. It was in the truck because we had only done the Sephora favorites, which was like, I don't know, 20 ,000 pieces, but like the actual single SKU was still being delivered.

48:17And I was like, stop the truck, do not receive, turn that shit back around. Really? An expensive mistake. And it's an expensive mistake. But like sometimes you don't see the thing that is real because you don't want to see it. Like I loved it. But like when I really thought about it, I didn't, we didn't do the full like testing to like see what we, after that we sent it to Arizona in the heat in a ship test. And we were like, did it melt? Yeah, guess what it did. But it's so interesting that you had the conviction to turn the truck around and having that conviction to say this thing isn't right.

48:50and I'm going to go left when everyone wants you to go right is such a huge job of a founder, but it takes a lot of guts. But nobody else can make that decision. Nobody else can make that decision. And it goes back to what you said in the beginning. It's trust. And that is the thing that you can't, you spend so much effort building the trust of the customer that, but it's so easy to lose it. Diana, give me an expensive mistake. Tell me what you've done wrong. You know, it's so, I mean, I'm so intense about our product and ingredient quality, like everything. And by the way, I remember being like, we're launching a leave-in and it's in glass.

49:22Like that was crazy to people. Like the quality of the component, I want it to reflect what's inside. Like all of this stuff really matters to me. So there've been many times where like, we've had to just evolve what we're doing because it's at a scale. You know, it's just, you have to be really intentional about it, but I will never ship anything. My whole thing is like, I want it to arrive at your door or you get it at Sephora and you're like the value of what this is. It's so good. I think that's what we have to remember as founders is like, we're coming in with our soul and creative expression.

49:49And when you decide to partner with a retailer like Sephora, they're actually just trying to make you better. And they're trying to like refine. And actually this creative exercise to synthesize what it is you're doing to more people changes your life. It's changed my life. It's changed all of our lives. You can still make the thing on your D2C. And I think that's what you need to remember creatively. But what happens if you've got a great product? If you've built with conviction? If you've done what your heart desires and you feel that you've got a community and you have something special, but you don't get the Sephora moment, then what?

50:23I actually think the hardest thing in business is like not if you fail or if you succeed, but it's that middle. It's that middle area where it's just like, you get one hit, but you're like, it's not quite enough. And is it something that you should stick with or not? Like that ambiguity is really hard. Facts. I mean, when you fail, at least it's definite. You're like, this shit don't work. but you're absolutely right when you go selling the kind of tracks and every now and again there's a glimmer of light and you're like but it's kind of nearly there like that's so hard the thing that i would say my husband really did for me at the beginning because we did put some of our personal money into it but very clearly at the beginning he was like we have five years max that we're going to try this and we're going to do it for like and how much money like what where are we going to top off on this and i think having some boundaries like that really for me it helped no down for a relationship too.

51:17I deeply believe that what is not meant for you will not miss you. And you have to trust that. And I know there are a lot of people probably listening right now and are like, all I dream, my dream is to get into Sephora. I think if it's right and the timing lines, it will work. But in the meantime, just keep showing up every day, one inch at a time. And as you build the business, people will go in and ask for it. And it's, you just, you cannot abandon yourself. You have to keep going. And if it's supposed to happen, it will. Like, I really believe that. 20 years on DTC. Come on, tell us. What I would tell anybody who's looking to start right now is to take time out of the equation.

51:53Just take it out of the equation. Do what you can with what you have right now. And just, you know, allow your journey to unfold for you. I love that quote. As you begin to walk on the way, the way appears. That literally defines my entire journey as a founder. Just take a step. do a thing, you learn, you fail, you win, you learn, you take another step, you do a thing, it kind of unravels for you. As soon as you start looking, all of your intuition disappears. When you start looking from side to side, and I think a brand's magic is their intuition. You know, just hearing you guys tell the stories about the mistakes and the products that you believed in, and no matter what, you want to keep this on DTC because that you believe in that, you know, I've had so many of those stories too.

52:39Like our top selling skew is the skew that nobody believed in. Nobody wanted me to launch it. Nobody wanted me to launch a bomb powder. The name is too long. What is a bomb and a powder? Is it a powder or a bomb? You're in Sephora. You have to tell them if it's a bomb or is it a powder? It cannot be both. Like there's a universal and this tinted. No, just launched the universal. No, my gut tells me this is how I see it. This is the way I know it's going to work. That intuition and that gut is so important. It's what defines you and your brand. So tunnel vision, knowing what's true and what's right for you and just patience.

53:19Patience is a gift I wish I can give every founder. Creating your own definition of success is really important. We don't need to be like billion dollar brands. Like the idea of have everyone needing to be a billion dollar brand, I think is one that is really hard to compete with. But like my husband always says, he's like, I thought you were going to be selling products at farmer's market. This is great. I didn't know what you were going to do. And I'm like, and they say that like, you know, happiness is like the difference between expectations and reality. And like your expectations move as things move.

53:49But like, I, that's what I love about what you said. It's like, have like that thing in front of you and do have high expectations. And then it's okay if they move, but it's also okay if you can like get it to stop moving and maybe like a nice lifestyle business is great. Yeah. For you and your family. I mean, I feel like this is exactly what I wrote about in Start With Yourself. It's like if you have a vision for what type of life you want, what type of business you want to run, and then you're able to just say, and this thing is going to just take some time. The way that you come into it, the anxiety dissipates.

54:24Because all of a sudden you're like, great, this thing, I'm going to enjoy the actual work. I'm going to enjoy what it takes, the journey that I'm on to get there. I'm going to take the highs. I'm going to take the lows. But the thing that bothers me the most is that so many people just don't start and specifically women. And I think the big thing about everyone sitting around this table, we started. You got out the gates and you just had a go. And that's going to lead me to the next subject because we're going to talk about money. Because so often, so, so, so often the conversation that I have with founders and aspiring founders is I just don't know where to start.

55:02I just don't understand the piece about the money. And what's beautiful about the three of you is that you all have funded your businesses in extremely different ways. And I want to understand the choices that have shaped the companies that you were each able to build. Now, Danessa, we have heard that, you know, you had this company for so long and you bootstrapped to the company to make 500 SKUs, which I still, we'll talk about that later. But you spent years funding the company yourself. Amy, you took a very, very different route because you had this incredible and very impressive career. And then you built all of that up with kind of like this decades of knowledge.

55:40And then you decided, okay, I'm going to go out later in the brand after bootstrapping and having the boundaries that you and your husband set together. But then you went out and you raised a significant amount of capital. And then Diana, again, very, very, very differently. You actually raised outside money from the outset, from the beginning. So we really have all the ways, all of the things here. Now, before we get into kind of like the individual experiences, what do you guys actually believe outside capital is actually for? And can you just talk to the audience about your appreciation and understanding of that as people that have actually taken outside capital?

56:17Yeah, I think that saying when they say money will make you more of what you are. when you bring money in if you are not like buttoned up if you do not have operational excellence if you do not have clarity about who you are and where you're going if you don't know what the next three and five years look like you're in a lot of trouble you're just kind of like burning someone else's cash you're like gambling with somebody else's money i really do think that from my point of view you should understand and i think our experiences are different. For me, I was never ready to take money. If somebody gave it to me, the brand wouldn't exist today.

56:55There was so much I needed to learn first. For me, I was building the plane as I flew it. And so the evolution of what my brand looked like was so different year over year. I think when the money came, it was time because that money was used to scale. I couldn't go any further without it. You know, I couldn't just be a solopreneur doing all of the jobs. At the point we were in the business, I needed to bring on team. We wouldn't be able to grow any more in the space that we were. We would run out of cash. If we wanted to grow more, there's not enough cash to fuel it. At the end of the day, you are fueling your business through your outside artistry, right?

57:36It's like you are a working makeup artist. Oh yeah. But I want to understand that, What did bootstrapping actually force you to do within your business? And how did you, like, what did you become like disciplined about? Oh, everything. Because I mean, when people ask me, how much money did you start your business with? It's zero. I had an idea. I wanted to do this thing. But guess what? Next week I have to go do a job. And then when I get that check, I need to decide how much it's going to feed my family and then how much I'm going to use to invest in this business. And then literally week over week, that's how I built the brand.

58:10So when it's your money coming out of your pocket and it's like your children's food money, you think about that money a lot differently. So discipline at the highest level. So talk to me about what your investors actually were able to do for you, because I feel like, you know, sometimes you get investors that are just about the money. Sometimes you get investors that are really like proficient around distribution. Some of them are like operational whizzes and they'll actually come into your business and help you with certain functions of the business. What has worked for you? Oh my goodness. I'm obsessed with our investors because they are operational wizards.

58:47And I think the biggest value they bought is helping us to build team because they know what it takes to take you from A to B, from B to C. They know the quality of the person. They know what the infrastructure needs to look like. And those are things I would have never known. I would have made mistakes all through that. And so it's like they got in front of that and told me stories and gave me examples and allowed me to choose. And I think that was really beautiful that we work on this together as a team. But the people like the right CFO, the right operators, I would encourage anybody to start there first because I kind of did it backwards, you know.

59:28From a team perspective? Yeah, from the team perspective. I was just excited that people were excited with me. And, you know, you love what I'm trying to build and my spirit and my heart. Come on. Come on in. Let's do it together. No one's giving you an opportunity. I want to be that woman that gives you the opportunity. Oh, Lord.

59:47And I'm so grateful for every team member that has ever been with me. But I also I think I destroyed a lot of people, too, along the way, because I was putting people in roles that they weren't ready for or they didn't have the expertise for. And like that breaks my heart. Now, you know, hindsight is 20, 20. So I would tell everybody to start with your leaders first. That's one thing that, you know, our investors trained me on. And it makes the most sense. That operational excellence, that expertise in those key areas, those leaders first. Start with your leaders. Start with the leaders. Start with your leaders.

1:00:20It makes all the difference. That's expensive. And that's why people have to raise money. That's why I raise capital, because my now CEO was my first hire. She's been with me for seven years. there was no pot of gold for me. I needed to raise capital. And had I not taken on that capital, I would not have been able to hire Elaine. And she has been with me this whole time and keep going. And that was part of why I decided to do it before launching. But I'm really interested in that because raising capital from the outset is really taking a huge bet on yourself, right? And because you don't know what you don't know at that point, but to your point, you would never have been able to bring in that CEO at that period had you not you know, being able to raise that capital.

1:01:03What else did the money allow you to do that otherwise would have been an impossibility? You know, first of all, into your earlier question, like what does money even allow you to do? Money is rocket fuel. But if you put it into the rocket and shoot it and don't know where you're aiming the rocket, you're going to go in the wrong place. So my philosophy around fundraising in general is raise as you go. So I came from high growth venture backed startups. It's also all I ever knew. You know, I was the eighth in full year away. In the glory days of that day. You see the good, the bad, the ugly, the most insane side of it, right?

1:01:38All of it. It's true. And you know, these companies were almost acting like they were tech companies. Yeah. And they were. And they were not. So raising a hundred million dollars for whatever it was, a luggage company, a mattress company, the math was not mathing to put it very gently. So by the time that I came in, I'm like, okay, let me actually break this down very tactically. How much are wages going to cost? How much is the first inventory order going to cost? How much would it cost to set up the website? How much does it cost to build out the brand? And there are a lot of startup costs. You don't, these are not recurring costs.

1:02:07You don't need to rebrand the company every year, you know? So I literally broke it down line by line and was like, that gets me to like one and a half million. And what did you raise from the outset? So I raised 2 million. She gave us a little bit of runway. She did a map and then went, you know, it was 1.7. And I think a lot of people didn't believe in us. I actually really only had three investors from the outset. And then once we launched, people were like, can I get in? Yeah. It's absolutely true that it's harder to raise 2 million than it is to raise 20 or 200. Let me tell you, because the funds that you're talking to are so much smaller.

1:02:40And so it becomes a bigger piece of their pie. And I stand by that. It's really hard to raise 2 million bucks. I really want to know your journey because it's again, very, very different from everybody else. You really understood beauty operations, right? It's like that was your role and you knew what it would take to scale a business like this. And I'm wondering if that experience actually made you more conservative or more bullish when it came to going out, A, first putting your own money in, but also then when it came to this pretty sizable raise that you did. Like, how did your past experience lend to that?

1:03:12I mean, I think the commonality here is you do what you need to do and you do it based on what you already know, right? Like I did not have the precedence. Maybe I saw these tech companies raising money on the news, but I didn't think that that was a possibility for me. I didn't know that anyone would let me raise money. So it just didn't feel... It felt too far away from me. So when I raised my initial money, which was$500 ,000, I did it through friends and family. I wouldn't... But I knew I needed to raise money because I knew I also wasn't somebody who would be able to make that trade-off mentally about my kids eating or not or whatever it was.

1:03:51like that just wasn't in my mental capacity, right? Like I wasn't able to put it on my credit card. That's just not the way I, I wasn't able to take that kind of risk. And so I knew that I wanted to raise money. I think it did. I was always really conservative, but that probably comes less from the work and more from my upbringing that I was raised in a family that was like, never have any debt, always be able to pay for yourself, always have savings. And I think that was one of the things I really had to learn. And honestly, I'm still learning. I'm still learning how to like take bigger bets and like test and learn and be able to spend it a little bit more freely to see it coming back.

1:04:27And I think that was also the reason why I ended up raising money the second time. And I took on an institutional investor was because honestly, the numbers just got big. So we went from, you know, we launched and we doubled or tripled every single year for years up until 24 to 25. And then at the second round, you raised what, like$28 million or something around that. I was in that ballpark. Yeah. And, but that was something I waited until frankly, I didn't honestly need the money. So what I was raising was really smart money. I was raising to find a partner that could help me see around the corners because I was in a state where I was like, I've never been in a business that was bigger than 50.

1:05:05And now we're North of a hundred, right? It's a different ball game. And to your point, like, I don't think that I know everything. And so I'm, I was really looking for someone who could help me figure out this next piece of the pie. And I think that's really what I've gotten from it. So what are you looking for beyond the check? So I really wasn't looking for the check, to be honest with you, right? Like, but you did raise 28 million bucks. So I wanted to have the, I, we were really profitable already at that point. I wanted to have the cash to be able to do more things that I wanted to do, like hire people.

1:05:39I also took some money off the table, if I'm being honest. Smart. Thank you very much at that point. And honestly. As you should. We took the money off the table and did nothing with it. And I was like, because everyone told me, don't like just take a year and figure out what you're going to do and how you're going to feel about it. So at first we really didn't do anything with it. And then when we were in the Palisades and that happened, I cannot tell you how good it felt to be able to buy another house and to just be able to like take care of my own problems. Like that was, that was the first time I really was like, wow, this is what money is for.

1:06:12This is what it can do for you. And I felt so grateful to the business and to my partner at that time too, that they were able to make that happen. But I think the thing that I did by waiting until I didn't need the money and but our business was like, honestly, in such a good position, I had a lot of choices from who I was going to raise money from. And the thing that I did that I think people can hopefully learn from is if you do it at that point, And first I dated for a long time, right? Like all of the time, like from the beginning, like anytime I saw someone at a conference, you're like, okay.

1:06:48And I would do what you're saying. I would back channel. I'm like, hey, they invest with, you know, what are they like as a portfolio company, as an investor? And so I paid attention. When I got to the point that I was ready to invest, I only went to six private equity groups. And I said, okay, I'm ready. Do you want in? I'm going to give you access to a data room. I will give you one hour of my time. Here's a Mad Libs of what the term sheet is going to look like. I have never done that shit. That's unbelievable. Because I was like, I want control, control and control. Why was that important to you?

1:07:22Like to control the process in that way? Because I think, again, you learn from what you see. And I had been in businesses with other founders where I saw them lose control. And I was like, that's not going to happen to me. Your name is on the product and you are losing control. and I saw it happening as an employee and I was in those board meetings. And I was like, I don't want that. No, I love it. And I only ask because I really believe in the adage that how you start is how it goes. And so when you are managing a process like that, like they know who they're getting into business with, right?

1:07:55They understand that this is not a company that they're coming and taking like full responsibility for they're going to take advantage of. It's very interesting. Well, and to that point, like I didn't need the money and I didn't need, I technically didn't need the partner. Right. So they knew that I knew I had leveraged in that moment. And for me, I really feel like I chose an investor that really cares. She has been an operator and it's a woman. And those are all things that are important to me. And so I actually did not go with the highest valuation, but I did go back to her and I say, I got another higher valuation at some point, you know what I mean?

1:08:30And like tried to negotiate a little bit differently. but I think ultimately you do what you know, right? And so some of it is like, you're trying to not repeat a mistake that you saw. And then you're also trying to make sure that you keep whatever you need. And for me, it was control. I wanted control of the company. I think the most important thing, especially early on is philosophical alignment with growth. Because you have to realize I took, by the way, I've taken over 400, 500 investor meetings at this point in my career. I would walk into there and being like, oh, you worked at all these D2C darlings.

1:09:01Do you want to build the this in hair? And I'm like the opposite of it. I don't think spending a million dollars and making a million dollars is a good business. You need to be so much more efficient. So a that, and B I knew I wanted to build a genuinely prestige brand. This is not a growth hack. I'm not trying to trick anybody. I just want to build quality products. So took kissed a lot of frogs to get to my first investor who like saw what we were doing. And to this day has been the best investor. He is like, you need me not going to bother you. I think there's a lot of pixel pushers out there.

1:09:33Not all money is created equal. It does change as you grow. But my advice for founders, if you are looking to raise money, like be philosophically aligned with your investors in the early days and let them let you cook. Because if they try to push you too much, you will end up with a totally different brand by year two or three. I couldn't agree with anything more because at the end of the day, different investors are looking for different things and you need to make sure that what you want and they want are the same. Are you the type of person that I want to be in business with? And when the shit hits the fan, because it always does, are you in it or are you flighty and moving somewhere else?

1:10:06And so I think when you talk about philosophical alignment, it's like, are we in this for the right reasons? Is your horizon for a sale the same as my horizon for the sale? Is what you believe this brand is, i.e. in the premium space, how you're going to allow me to continue to grow this brand? Or are you actually trying to get me to sell something for$2.99 at Target? These are all what philosophical alignment really looks like with your investor. And they will show their truest self when you are in negotiation. So if you have a term, first of all, best advice, get a good lawyer, protect yourself, especially in those early days.

1:10:39I have a lot of friends who signed sexy term sheets that were not good deals for them, you know, and an investor will show their true selves. If they are pushing back on terms that are actually hurting you as a founder, four years later, five years later, these things matter. And that is not aligned with who you are. One of the things that has fascinated me about you, and I'm very excited for you to talk about it, is the fact that you're not the CEO of your company. And I feel like we have glorified that role so, so much, especially again, in female founder circles. Will you just talk a little bit about that decision and why it's the right thing for you and your business?

1:11:15Yeah, it's a great question. And it's so funny because when we were all introducing ourselves earlier, you guys are founders and CEOs. And that's something that I said in my body for five years. Hi, I'm Diane. I'm the founder and CEO. And you embody this thing. And for me, I've worked in the consumer space for a long time. And I've seen sticking points for other brands where the founder doesn't necessarily let go. And I think that's the hardest part of it. So it has been an extraordinary amount of personal work to kind of, again, sit on my hands. And I'm really grateful I have Elaine. I think that's the big difference is that I've had this person from day one.

1:11:52I don't have a hired gun as a CEO. I do think that would be a different experience if I was like bringing in so-and-so with 25 years of experience. That would be a different journey. But I think with Elaine, it was already happening. She was doing the role. Like at the end of the day, what a gift for my business to be at a place where like, you know, once you hit certain numbers, the 50 million's north of that, it's like, maybe I shouldn't be CEO anymore. Like, let me actually spend my - Shame in the game. Like maybe you shouldn't be CEO anymore. Maybe you should never have been CEO. Like the role that I love the most in my life is my role at Skims, right?

1:12:26It's like to be chief product officer is my dream of a job. But it took me a really, really long time. It took me sitting down going, what's all the shit that I don't like versus all the stuff I do like? And I do think that somehow we imagine that you don't call the shots unless you're the CEO. And I'm telling you, that is not true. As I speak to each of you, I hear that concern about a loss of control, a lack of control. And again, that is to be expected as founders and operators of your business. What are the things that each of you believe, despite the size of your team and how far you've come and however well you're doing, that you still need control over and you still need to fully understand despite having built real companies with real infrastructure and real teams?

1:13:12I feel as a CEO, there's a few things that you are responsible for. One, you have to have a vision so big that one, people want to follow you and be, they can see their dreams coming true within your dream, which is a very hard thing to do. So that's one. Two, you have to build systems and team and structure so that you don't need to be there. I think that's two. but free. Yeah. What I think is really important is that you set the tone and the energy for everyone. Like you have to be like the most optimistic person. You have to create the belief. And for me, I haven't found that person who I think could do that better than me.

1:13:57Fair. Daniel, what do you feel like you have to understand personally over what can be delegated? I mean, I always say I'm the first 10 % and the last 10%. And everything that 80 % in the middle is I let go and I let my team do their thing. So it could be anything from like a budget of a campaign, a product development, a hire. Let me in the beginning, I want to set the tone with you. And then I'm going to let my team, whoever it is, even investors do their work and then come back to me. And I think that is how we've really been able to grow the business is me not touching every single part of it.

1:14:30That has been huge. And I love what you shared because there's a quote from a French philosopher that's like, you can teach a man to build a boat or you could teach him to long for the sea. And by teaching them to long for the sea, they're going to figure out how to build the boat. But it's no longer my job to be like, this is how the boat's going to be made. This is this. So for me, it's about being that vision, being that voice and giving space for someone else to teach them how to build the boat who are honestly better at building boats than I am. I mean I'm gonna be really vulnerable and tell you I'm still figuring this out not a good delegator no I mean I yeah maybe there is a part of that where it's like the thing you know everyone says like the thing that gets you here won't get you there and I think it's absolutely true and I I am really in the business and that is something that I'm really trying to figure out right now I am trying to figure out this fit I'm gonna be honest like I don't think I have listening to you I'm like, God, I envy the fact that you have such clarity around it.

1:15:29Today. Today. Yeah, tomorrow maybe it's a Friday. Yeah, and I am trying to do exactly what you said, figuring out like, what are the things that I like to do? What am I actually good at? Frankly, like there is something where I've always just been a part of a team. So a lot of the time I just felt like I was just doing my same job I've always done. And then I realized, oh, there's like a weight to my words. Like when I say I don't like something, it's no longer a brainstorm, right? Right. And so I think every founder out there can really, it's so hard to even realize that you might be intimidating because you know, every piece of your own story, you're like little old me.

1:16:03Yes. I said that like people are taking it. Yeah. I think that's honestly one of the hardest things, which is a funny thing to talk about, but it is a really weird thing. And then you have to figure out like, okay, then how do I say it in a way that will make you feel okay. And so I, I've, you know. This is why I leave the room guys. This is why Elaine's like, please leave for at least 30 minutes and then come back. It's hard. It's hard, but I will be honest. I think I'm still on that journey and there are things that I do well. There's definitely things that I don't do well. I am so happy that you express that because I think there are so many founders that feel exactly the same and so many senior peoples and leaders that feel exactly like that.

1:16:44They haven't quite figured it out and it is a journey and it does take a little bit of trial and error, But that's why I think conversations like this are so important. And indeed, relationships, like the group chat that you have, right? Because learning and listening and seeing how somebody else has done it and having the honesty around it to say, you know what? I tried this. It didn't work out so well. I'm still figuring it out. And even just the sort of framework of you saying the first 10 and the last 10, it's like, I'm going to try something similar. I'm like, I'm going to try this. Right.

1:17:14But I think it's really important. And again, while we need to be able to have these conversations and have them honestly, because it's not helpful for anyone to hear the lying, cheating, crappy version of this. That isn't really true. And I think it takes a long time. For me, the key has always been people. And I think the reason I've migrated people through businesses is that you create relationships and you create a shorthand that is not really easily replaceable. and when you do lots of things like having those relationships and those people that have been able to make great livings and hopefully make some good money along the way and they can transition into different roles and grow with a company or switching to something else is such a blessing to me but it always comes to people.

1:18:02It makes it so much more fun but I think for me the right people in your organization there is just no replacement for it. You have to have like the right people on the bus but also in the right seats. before you even figure out which direction you're going. And the wrong person there for too long can really make a mess too. The wrong person for any amount of time. I think like it's the most expensive mistake that I've made. And the most, I mean, honestly, I find a lot of the business problems, like if it's something that money can solve, I'm actually like, I can be okay about it. But the things that have to do with people, those are always the ones that keep me up at night.

1:18:39This is a personal journey, not just a professional life. listen ain't it just you're dealing with real people still really learning how to want to be respected and not just liked and I think that's something and I think that's maybe not something from reading your book that you don't know from as much but I'd like to learn more well you know again I think that that's a journey and I think that displeasing people is something that you get more and more comfortable about because you realize that it's not about you I think if you have enough experience and you change approach and you're in different situations, you have companies that do well, things that do less well.

1:19:18And yet there's a you are the continuum. You are the thing that doesn't change. And yet the reaction from people is really, really different. You learn that actually the energy that you're putting into making something palatable for somebody other than yourself is wasted energy. Well, and that you're doing it for the best of everybody, not just for that person. And that's what it comes down to. I think the bigger things get, the more responsibility that is on our laps. And I take that responsibility so seriously. And so I'm always thinking about the greater good. I'm never limiting the situation to this one moment in time, this one sentence, this one set of hurt feelings, because I think consistency is the most important thing for a leader.

1:20:01And when you're consistently whatever you are, consistent bitch or consistently kind or consistent, You know, it's like people come to rely on what it is that you give. And that's what people don't like. They don't enjoy surprises. But if you are open and you're giving people the road ahead and you're telling them what's coming, you know, that helps a lot, right? And so I think better to be consistently who you are than trying to fit into some mould because we're all different and we all come at this from a totally different perspective. And we're all running different things that will end up in different places.

1:20:32So there is no one size fits all. my last question is really just thinking about seeing the three of you today I knew you had arrived because there was like so much cackling like outside it's like literally like this and I was like they definitely must like each other how important do you think the relationships between founders between women between competitors like what has that what does it mean what do you need from it? What do you wish you saw more of? I think it's everything. I think Diana kind of alluded to this in the beginning, but the industry has changed a lot. And I really do think now it is more collaboration over competition.

1:21:12And I think this is the first generation we've really seen that. I mean, even as a long time beauty executive, I remember going to dinner with a bunch of my friends who are beauty executives and they were all complaining about their founders. And I was like, oh, wait, I'm not one of you anymore. Other people are out there complaining about me.

1:21:33and wait a minute like maybe these are the people that I need will have more likeness with or can understand more where I'm at and so I think it's really I try really hard to be I try to be helpful to people who are low you know not getting earlier and then also to like look to other people who are like the seniors when I'm like the sophomore you know so I think both ways yeah first founder that took my call that I was like, this is happening. And you've been on this journey with me the whole time. And it's so, I mean, seeing you across the room, this one is lights up the entire room and you just see your face, whether it's at store manager conference and you're like, oh, the house is here.

1:22:10I feel good. You know? And whether it's, whether it's brand summit, which you spoke, you guys, you spoke at the impact summit. It's just like, it's joy and it's a beautiful feeling. I only know it in the Sephora environment, but I think in general and beauty can kind of, it can seem like a gladiator ring and you know, everyone in a gladiator ring is like fighting to the death. But the truth is, is once you're in the ring, if you are in the arena, you're like, how do we all survive? You know, the tone changes and you're like, wow, it is so hard to even get in here. How can we all help each other?

1:22:42And by the way, that noise, those, those people are in the stands. Yeah. So once you're in there, you see people totally differently and it is a privilege for your business to do well and to grow. And you just, I think, continue to have more and more empathy for everyone because once you're doing it, you're like, this is not easy. Danessa, tell me, what do you still aspire to? I aspire to help people see their possibility. Diana, what do you still aspire to do or to become? I aspire to help people find their inner child. I love that answer. I will take a different tack. I aspire to be the best version of myself.

1:23:23Amazing. ladies thank you so much i have this has been a joy and a privilege and i could see her all day but we got businesses to run so you know let's do it love you thank you thank you thank you

1:23:39if you're loving this podcast be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform while you're there give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend we'll be so grateful aspire with emma greed is presented by audycy i'm your host Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese-Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweetek and Carlos Delgado.

1:24:18Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emagreed.me.

1:25:192222 2222 2222 2222 2222 2222 2222