Love, Family and Business: How To Work With a Partner with Jens Grede

28:57So I don't make that much distinction. You really don't? No. I always think that it's somewhere in the fact that you and I are, and we talk about this a lot, like we are so different. The way we approach business, the way we are with the people that we work with, you and I have entirely opposite styles. But in our home lives and what we care about and who we are, we're incredibly similar. I think we're very similar about our taste. Yeah. Taste meaning how we want to live, how we want to eat, what we get excited about. We have very similar values. Yeah. You know, of the whole spectrum of values.

29:44I think we have similar moral code. That for sure. I think we look at the world in a very similar way. I feel that I'm incredibly aligned with you as a human being. Yeah, our styles of work are entirely different. Not like Mars and Venus. No, like galaxies apart. Galaxies apart. Galaxies apart. Galaxies apart. You are charming and friendly and personable and emotional. And you, my darling. I've been accused of being a little bit stoic, a little impersonal perhaps sometimes, a little cold. I wouldn't use that word, but I would just say, you know, a little bit more objective. We're super different in how we approach our work.

30:39But that's small stuff. That's just how you approach your work is how you get shit done. Yeah. That's what I'm... Yeah. You know, and I've said this to you many times, when we've had disagreements, which is, it's all going to lead to the same result. Yeah. This is how you go about it to get to your end result. I have to go about it the way I go about it. And when you say, how can you do this? Or, you know, I don't agree with that. You know, I'll sometimes have to remind you that I've done just fine in life doing it my way. And we're going to get to the same place. We're going to get to the same place.

31:18But we do have some rules. I feel like one of the things that between you and I, we always say, like, whichever of us cares the most gets to decide. Yeah, this is a, I would say this is a pillar of my kind of philosophy of working with people that I love. And it goes for you. It goes for all my partners. I think it goes for my working relationship with Kim. Yeah. Which is, I know what you, I know what Kim, I know what my other partners deeply care about. And if you care that much about it, I'm going to let you have it. And I'm lucky enough to work with people that give me the grace that when I care a lot, you let me have it.

32:07Because in the end of the day, we all make good decisions. We make more bad decisions. It's okay. Okay, you like blue. I like red. Who to say what's the best? Okay, if you really want blue, let's do blue. If it doesn't work out, we'll do it differently. What's the big deal? How does your dad say it? Some things work out. What is the saying he has? Well, the saying my dad has, which applies to a lot of things in life, is it's going to be okay. But if it's not okay, that's okay too. But as it pertains to how you divide responsibilities between a friend and a business partner, it's really important to follow the rule of who cares.

32:59Who cares more? Because if you're passionate about it, it's important for you to see that through. You have that in your heart. You want to see this idea through. Who am I to stop you from seeing that through? That creates friction and tension. and if it doesn't work out or you don't get your way and I get my way instead, and that doesn't work out, you're going to be resentful thinking if you've only done it my way. Isn't it much easier to go? If this is really important to you, we're going to do it the way you want to do it. And we're going to get behind the way you want to do it 110%. If it doesn't work out, well, you know what?

33:41We'll make a different decision next time. It's okay. Honestly, people overthink the small decisions and they forget about the bigger picture. Because you chose that color, because you opened that store, because you choose that packaging, because you spent that on a billboard. You think that's really ultimately going to determine the success of what you're doing? It's not. You're going to make some bad decisions. You're probably going to make some horrible decisions. The secret to success as a founder is to realize that you only have to make a couple of really good decisions and you can make a ton of bad ones.

34:21Just make a couple of really good ones. And the only way you make some good decisions is to make a decision and move on. Companies and ideas fail, not because of good and bad ideas, but because people cannot make decisions. They spend too much time with too few decisions. Make more decisions. Don't sweat it. Learn from it. move on. What was your advice? Because I think it's my number one, and I've said this so many times, my number one piece of advice from you is always that make a decision and move on. But what do you think your advice is for people that hesitate too long, who make decisions out of fear and get it wrong?

35:02What do you say to people? Well, we're all wired differently. So it's easy for me to say to somebody who has a tendency to procrastinate, to make a decision and move on. but with so many things that we say this is who I am this is the way I am I do it this way I overthink I procrastinate and you use that as an excuse for not getting shit done is it's actually a muscle yeah I'm not a fast runner you've seen me run I run slow it's not your thing no it's not my thing but if I committed myself to it maybe I could run a little bit faster right So things that we know about ourselves, which we wish we could change, it doesn't make you, oh my God, I'm going to be the fastest, most aggressive risk taker that ever grazed God's earth.

35:57That's probably not going to happen, but you can develop that muscle and you can become a faster decision maker. You can become a bigger risk taker. You can be more in tune with what your gut is telling you. You can develop a gut feel. You always refer to gut instinct and gut feel. Can you just talk about what that means to you specifically? So when we think about gut feel, we think of that feeling we have inside of us when we're confronted with a decision or how we feel about someone when we meet them or a situation. Yeah, typically. Right? That's how we refer to it. So when we speak about it, we tend to also speak and think about it as something that's kind of given to us by God that it just instinctively happens.

36:52I can't explain it. It's in my spirit. Yeah. There might be some truth to it, but your gut is really your collective memory, your collective experience and learnings all inside of you that is forming that feeling. It's everything you read, every book, every article, every conversation you had, every wrong and right decision you made. That becomes your gut. And it's okay not to be able to explain why you feel it, but you can feed it. And you can feed it by being a curious person. I spend every morning reading news for an hour. I read five newspapers. I read things I disagree with. I read things I agree with.

37:46I listen to podcasts of people that I strongly disagree with and people I strongly agree with. I take in the false spectrum. I meet people. Whenever we meet someone together, you go, oh, here comes Jens' 21 questions. I'm always asking people questions. Because you're so interested. Yeah, I just don't want to know like the surface stuff. So all of that, you know, in my life, that's built up. That's my gut feel. All of it feeds my gut feel. And I have learned to feed it. And I have learned to trust it. I don't need to explain it. I just have now, I think my instincts have got better as I got older.

38:37And the only way to explain that is to say my gut instinct is a muscle that I have trained and I have developed. Can you think about a time when your gut instinct has led you down like the right path? Like when you specifically used your gut and it's turned out to be right? When I met Kim and she showed me what her early ideas around Skims was, and she had an idea about a world that she wanted to build. I wasn't looking for a project. I was very happy. I had no interest in starting another business. I was kind of searching for a quite different chapter, I think, in life. But once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.

39:33Yeah, you could not do it. I couldn't not do it. And it's not like I want to do something. And I never think that I've approached opportunities and investments and like, oh, I really want to do it. It's more like I wake up the next day and I think I have to do it. I cannot not do it. So I just had a gut feeling that what she was showing me was something that I had to help bring to reality. So it certainly led me right. But I would say more often I remember the times where I don't listen to my gut, where I let myself be convinced that I'm wrong, where I'm giving too much, let's say, grace. partly because sometimes I can't articulate why I don't like something.

40:23It's not always easy in a nice way to say why I don't like something. Sometimes you see something, it just doesn't really like it. I don't really like it. So you can be convinced because I don't really like it. But if you really like it, then you go against that gut feel. It always turns out. It always turns out terribly. Yeah. Do you think that you knew when you and I got together, did you think that you knew that we would like stay in business together? Did you ever have a feeling about how our life would turn out together? Well, the most important thing has to be the most important thing. And if you're in love, being in love is the most important thing.

41:05So I didn't... That's such a you answer. I didn't think about business or what's going to happen next week. No. I was in love with you. So that was the most important thing. And that's that. Do you feel like there's stuff that I do now that drives you crazy as a business partner? Well, you drive me crazy as a business partner, as my best friend and my wife. How so? I've learned as I get older, I have learned that we all have different processes. It's not for me to change you. That's not my job. And I'm pretty sure I do a lot of things that drives you up the wall. And I think the most important thing for any relationship, again, in love, in business, is really to, and I keep using this word today, I don't know why, you got to give each other grace.

42:12You got to give each other grace and allow one another to be who you are. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

42:27You've heard me talk a lot about personal wealth and side hustles. And I'll be honest, One of my favorite things about entrepreneurship is finding ways to make my money work for me, even while I'm not working. Here's an example. Imagine you're traveling, maybe taking that dream vacation you've been saving for, or even just away from work for a few weeks. Did you know that you could actively be building that vacation fund while you're gone by hosting your home on Airbnb? If the thought of hosting sounds overwhelming, here's the good news. You don't have to do it all yourself. With the Co-Host Network, you can hire a high-quality local co-host to take care of everything for you.

43:06We're talking about creating your listing, managing reservations, messaging guests, offering on-site support, even helping with design and styling so your place looks its best. So whether you're a snowbird heading south for the winter, away on tour, or just working remotely for a stretch, your home doesn't have to sit empty. It can actually be earning for you. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. You know, before Skims, I used to feel like bras and underwear were either beautiful but uncomfortable or comfortable but not that flattering. There was never a perfect balance. That was one of the biggest reasons for starting Skims, creating beautiful but comfortable things you would wear every single day.

43:49I wear our fits everybody underwear every day. We have the most perfect panties in every silhouette and bras and bralettes that work with whatever you're wearing. We made racer back bras that are perfect when you're wearing a tank. We made padded, lined and unlined bras. We really thought of everything your girls need. With the Fitz Everybody collection, we created a fabric that feels like a second skin. It's soft, it's stretchy, and it's supportive without ever digging in or showing through your clothes. Fitz Everybody has been in the line from day one and it's still one of our best-selling collections.

44:23Skims has totally redefined what underwear can be. It's thoughtful in design, innovative fabrics and styles that make you feel confident the second you put them on. You can shop my favorite pieces at skims.com and after you place your order, be sure to let them know that I sent you. Select podcast in the survey and select our show, Aspire with Emma Greed, in the drop-down menu that follows.

44:51I want to talk about disagreements because obviously all partnerships, relationships, everyone has disagreements. And how do you think that, especially in a relationship like ours, how do you stop or how do we stop disagreements from becoming destructive at work or at home? Well, it goes back to a little bit about who cares most. My ambition is actually not to have disagreements. Once you have a disagreement, it's gotten pretty far. So I don't like to get to that. I mean, you can have bickering. Yeah. But I love disagreements. It's got to go pretty far to the disagreement. That means that you have a point of view.

45:33I have a different point of view. No one's willing to give up their point of view, that it feels so strongly that we'd rather disagree than move forward. So I think disagreements should be avoided generally. But if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation that you have a true disagreement, you've got to take down the temperature, de-escalate. And again, what's the most important thing? Are we going to lose our business, lose our love, lose our friendship over this? Is this the most consequential thing? Is everything really at stake here and usually not almost never right yeah like usually not almost never so what do you think if there's people listening right now and they are thinking about working with a partner or working with a really close friend what's the first conversation that they need to have before saying yes or coming together i think if you have to have the conversation, maybe you shouldn't be partners.

46:37You know, I think that the best partners have a different skillset to you. You do different things. So the things that you do or the thing that Kim does or the thing that our partners do has to be different from the thing that I do. Yeah. So if you're the expert at A, it's going to be very easy for me to let you make all the decision as it pertains to A. If I'm an expert in B, you're going to let me make the decision as it pertains to B. You might advise me differently from what I want to do, but ultimately that's my area of expertise. So I think if you're sitting with a friend, you're trying to figure out how to work together, you probably shouldn't work together.

47:26You're already doomed. You're doomed. Yeah. We never had to sit down and figure out our roles. It's bloody obvious. Yeah. Basically. But with everybody I work with, it's pretty obvious. We do different things. Yeah. And you should have more so than some kind of agreement, admire your partners for what they do. Respect them for what they do. I worked with some brilliant creatives. I'm not as good as them. I admire them. Yes. I wish I had those skills. I don't have them. I admire, I look up to it, and I'm excited to see what they do every day. Yes. That's how I want to go to work. I want to be excited about what my partner is going to show me, and I hope they're excited about what I'm going to do.

48:14No doubt. I want to change gear a little bit because I am very happy that you're happy and open to talk about anxiety. And you have been pretty open about the fact that you suffer from anxiety. And I want to understand a bit more about anxiety as it relates to your career and your life and your business. Because I think that we're so much conditioned to see anxiety as a weakness. And I know you think about it as a superpower. So will you, when did you start seeing it as a superpower? And will you just talk about it a bit for me? Very late, probably in my late 30s, where I really understood. And I did that through work.

48:56I was doing with a highly spiritual person who asked me, I said, I want to change. I don't want to be this anxious person any longer. I want to feel whole. And he said, are you sure you want to change? I said, yeah, this is a negative thing for me. This is a big, you know, my days are heavy. And he said, if you change, it also will change who you are. You're not just successful because, you know, despite your anxiety, you're successful because of them. there's so many positives that are driven and so many skills that comes from your anxiety that if you change that, you might not be as good as you are today.

49:56You might not be as good version. You might not be as an effective founder, entrepreneur without it. Are you sure you want to lose that power? And that was... Oh, yeah, that was, I walked out of that room. I remember. Dr. Tran, right? Yeah, Dr. Tran. Nothing had changed and everything had changed at the same time. Yeah, I mean, I think that that, even just you saying it, and I know that story so well, I feel like it is so important for people to hear because we all have parts of our personality that are useful or less useful, more useful or less useful. and it's not often, like we don't often put things in the right order.

50:43We don't often understand how some of those things that can be troubling to us can also enable us. Yeah. And anxiety can be debilitating, can be crippling. And indeed for many people, something that they need to get treated. At the same time, anxiety is a human emotion. It's part of our human experience. We all have it. It's healthy to have a dose of anxiety. It's connected to fear, which is a natural human emotion, reaction. It's our ability to feel love, sadness, joy. Anxiety is part of us. I have more of it. And I have so much of it that for a long time in my life, every day was just harder for me than it was for other people.

51:44And I kind of started every day at a negative. Yeah. Right? So I had to overcome that to do anything. I had to overcome anxiety to meet people. I'd overcome anxiety to get out in traffic, to get on an airplane, to be on my own. So I always was so, it was exhausting. It was really, really exhausting. It still is often exhausting. How do you know when anxiety is fueling you versus controlling you these days? I think it does both for better or worse. But I don't judge myself. for having anxiety anymore. I accept it. I see it as a wave. And when it comes, it can be imposing. And in the middle of the wave, you feel hopeless.

52:38But I know the wave is going to wash over and I know there's still, the water is still on the other side. So what am I going to do? Never get in the ocean? Is that better? Or am I going to start getting scared of the sand? And, you know, the problem, and I'm sure other people, if anyone listens to this, who suffers from anxiety, and I'm sure many do, the more you tailor your life to avoid situations which makes you anxious, you're getting anxious in lesser situations. When you lower the bar, that becomes a new bar. You need to lower it again. and life gets smaller that way. It's a very tricky subject.

53:26Everybody have their own journey and I can only speak on my experience. I'm not saying that's translatable to other people. They have to have their journey and they know themselves best. I can only speak of mine. But my personal experience is that I do better when I challenge it. I wonder, Yin, what tools keep you most grounded when the anxiety flares up? Like how have you learned to cope? Being honest with the people around me. Yeah, it's a big one. Yeah, I didn't grow up in an environment where you could show fear. I didn't grow up in a community or a culture where that was accepted, not in the school where that was accepted, not in the friend group where that was accepted, or even a thing.

54:17now. So... I mean, to a certain extent, I don't even think that I understood anxiety until I met you. Right. Because it's just not a factor in my life and certainly not something I grew up speaking about. And it wasn't until I was in a relationship with you that I understood anxiety to the extent I understand it now. Right. So I think myself, like many others, when you have, you suffer from dyslexia. Yeah. Okay, so you developed tools to get through school and little things you did and little fake outs and ways for it not to show or to get through your day and get done what you needed to do. Absolutely.

54:59Okay. Still using them. Right. And I still use mine. So I had to develop tools to deal with my anxiety. And what I learned for me is that I needed an out. I needed an emergency exit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I would find ways to reassure myself that I was able to leave this situation if I needed to leave it. And if I knew I had an escape plan, I had a much easier time getting through that wave. Totally. So I developed my tools. but what has helped in adult age as I'm living in a in a different time in a different culture where we are so much more open and generous with one another I learned to be very open about how I feel I went on this podcast right now and I said I'm nervous and when I can sit in front of you and and say, I'm the most nervous I've been for 15 years having this conversation with you.

56:09And I can say that on camera. Well, that diffuses my anxiety. Yeah. Because if I'm putting it out there, what do you have on me? Fuck off. The other thing that I've done is to surround myself with people that know how to support me when they see it's happening. They know the signs. And I have these sayings in my head. When I used to go in for a meeting, that was consequential. You know, when I was in the ad business, you have to pitch for work. So you constantly have to put yourself in really uncomfortable position, fly across the world, get into these hot ass meeting rooms with people, get treated like shit, present your work.

57:02sometimes being belittled and millions of dollars it's at stake and at times in the early days the company was at stake yeah That's a pretty anxious place to be even if you're not suffering from anxiety. That's a really anxious, you know, high strung. So I am blessed to have had people around me that say, this isn't the end of the world. They've got nothing on you. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. There's always tomorrow. There's always another client. There's always another flight. There's always another meeting. They helped me diffuse it. as I got older and even more confident all those things live in me and I think part of why I have pursued success for lack of better words in life is to create a environment in which I feel I always have the option to leave I think they call it fuck you money I think that's what they call it for sure So I don't want to be crude, but...

58:13No, it's true. I'm a very happy person who suffered from anxiety and I've been able to create a life partly because of it, partly because of the tools that, which we haven't really touched on, which I actually think is the superpower in anxiety, not just the militating side of anxiety. So if you don't mind, can we talk a little bit about... Please. that I'm dying for you to tell. Because I think that if you're a young founder or you're a young leader, you're just anyone who has anxiety. You need to understand that. Like it's a, I know it's been a breakthrough for you. Well, you said earlier in this conversation how I don't like to big things up.

58:57I'm always moving on to the next thing. I'm always thinking about tomorrow. I'm not really worried about today. But what do you think that comes from? Yeah. Where do you think that comes from? My fear, which is essentially what anxiety is, is a sense of irrational fear, right? My fear is always driving me to see around the corners. I'm not buying the BS. Okay, you love me today. You won't love me tomorrow. So you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to focus on tomorrow. So that's where my focus is going to be. that comes from a place of anxiety, but it actually is a superpower to constantly live and plan and work in the future.

59:42Because you're saying it allows you to see around the corners. Totally. You can call the play before it's even happening. We are all the main characters in the movie of our life, right? So most of us believe every moment is here to stay. When people tell us nice things, We tend to really believe they meant them and that they really thought about what they said. It's nice to be an optimist. It's less gratifying to be a pessimist. But if you're married to an optimist, you've got some space. You lift me up. You know, you lift me up. But the positive is that you're more objective. You're more realistic.

1:00:27and you don't tend to get sucked into this vortex where you start trying to feed your own ego. The ego isn't as important for an anxious person. You're swimming. You're trying to keep your head above the water. I'm not really thinking about, oh my God, I'm so special. I'm trying to survive, bro. I'm trying to live.

1:00:54So if I'm just thinking about living, you've got no time for the bullshit. I'm not going to think that I'm that special because I might drown. And that's the feeling. The feeling is I'm trying not to drown. So it's easy for me to be objective. It's easy for me to cut through the crap. It's easy for me to transform myself because my fear of being stuck or my fear of being left or my fear of drowning is far greater than my fear of what's tomorrow. Tomorrow holds promise for me. Tomorrow is exciting for me. Wow. Do you think you can do the same thing with people because of your anxiety? Like, do you think that you see things that other people miss?

1:01:41I think anxious people tend to be really great readers of other people. You're so aware all the time of your surroundings because instinctively you're just looking for threats.

1:02:02It's like a primal thing. Yeah, totally. Right? Yeah. This is, we're from the animal kingdom. This is a primal thing. I'm just wired to look for threats. I'm the lookout guy. You're the caveman. Totally. You want me in the lookout tower. Yeah, totally. I'm looking at every leaf. What moves? That's literally why I married you. Yeah. So, So, yeah, you become really good at reading people, reading their intentions, understanding what they want. Yeah. And it's a superpower. But you speak a bit about this with me, like about paranoia, right? Like you talk about your own paranoia and how that's allowed you to make good decisions, good investments, Eva.

1:02:47Yeah. Give me an example of where that type of paranoid mindset has paid off for you. Well, it's paid off because I have always moved on at a moment where I could have stayed. Right. I have always planned for the next chapter while I was in my current one. I have a red thread through my work because of my love for popular culture, for my love of fashion, for my love of retail, for an aesthetic that I gravitate towards. So this podcast is not long enough for me to lay out how everything I've done from ad agencies, starting magazines, to starting one of the first influencer platforms, to starting a jeans company, co-founding of Skims like all of that might seem like oh my god you've done so many different things I think I've have just done various expressions of the same thing yeah that's how I feel I can see that so it's not like I think that I'm like oh my god this ship is sinking I'm going to jump off to this it just means that I'm excited about where the future is going and my eyes are open for the next opportunity.

1:04:12So when I see that opportunity, I want to take it. So if you are young now and suffering from anxiety, what, based on your experience, would you say to people, what's the best thing to do? Just go after your dreams. You have to go for your dreams. You know, if you fail, at least you did it. Now your life becomes smaller if you don't try. Your life and your experience becomes bigger. If you go for it, you have to challenge yourself and it can be really, really difficult. But that doesn't mean you have a choice. Just do it. Just do it. I want to talk to you a little bit about more personal life.

1:05:00Oh, that wasn't personal enough for you? More personal life. Is it like digging further into personal life? I feel like you're finally getting to know me Yeah, for 16 years. I waited a long time for this conversation. I'm wondering if we go to conflict. Like, I've got so many things that I wanted to talk to you about. What do you think, Jens, is the hardest part of being married to somebody as ambitious as me? I've never been married to anyone else. So it's hard to compare. And I wouldn't want to be. Your ambition is part of what I fell in love with. you couldn't take that out of you and it to be you.

1:05:43But I think in any relationship, when you have two parties that are highly ambitious, it's more about allowing each other the moment. There was a moment when you were starting this podcast in the spring where that was your moment. The energy around you in your home, I'm sure nerves that you felt going through a transition or adding something to what you wanted to do and put yourself out there in a different way than you've done in the past, it's pretty nerve-wracking. It's going to consume a lot of energy. It's going to consume a lot of conversation. At that moment in time, it's going to be all about you.

1:06:40That's okay. It's going to be about you. What can I do? What's best for me is if, and I remember thinking this, the best thing is for Emma to be successful at whatever she wants to succeed at. Because God forbid you aren't. I'll have to listen to this for years. But if we lean in here, I'll let her have this moment. We can get back to me. We can get back to you eventually. No, but I mean, jokes aside, you have to know when something is important to the other partner. Like so much of what we're talking about today really comes down to grace, knowing each other and allowing, this is important to you.

1:07:32This is important to me. If you care, if this is your moment, if you care about this, I'm going to get behind you. I'm going through something that's important to me. You'll recognize that and you'll get behind me. Yeah, and I feel like once you've been together for as long as we have for 17 years, there's seasons to this shit, right? It's like, sometimes it's all about me. Sometimes it's all about you. Sometimes there's a clash. I think the point is that we are in constant conversation about these things And it's not just like a realization that, oh, this person's traveling and sucking all the air out of the room and everything's about them now.

1:08:08It's usually a conversation and an acknowledgement that this is a period that's about to happen in our lives. And I think that we have a level of just a lot of honesty in our relationship and a reality of like what is going to happen. We're not trying to kid ourselves about it. Yeah, but that's also partly of who we are. this is hard thing to teach people I think you know I think if I was married to someone who was about themselves all the time for 16 years I don't think it would last that long you know it's kind of that would start grating on me a little bit so that's just not who you are if you were that person that wouldn't be you and I wouldn't be with you you know you are outside of work a sensitive highly tuned person and a great and loving and supportive wife to me and I recognize that and I want to be all of those things to you and you are yeah I try I try I mean that doesn't mean we get it right all the time well no we don't get it right all the Balance is not right all the time.

1:09:27But you know what? That's okay too. People talk about this. It's not like everything is always in balance. Actually, life tends to be like an EKG. It's never really in balance, right? It's like, it's not really in balance, but there's like - Don't talk to me about balance. But there's some kind of medium in it. There's a kind of an average. Like, yeah, you take the average, like somewhere across the, you know, across the life, across the time, Like there's going to be like a more often than not wavelength. And it's like, are you comfortable with that? Yeah. Jerry Seinfeld said something in an interview a while back.

1:10:05And he said, you know, most of us go for a day. Okay, we have a good morning. We have a shitty afternoon. We're somewhat of a good moment at dinner. Maybe we're bad again. Then we're good again. Life is not a, we're not in this equilibrium. No, but that's the problem. Because I think so many people are looking for equilibrium and they don't get it. And then they, you know, it's like, again, I don't expect to always be in the most joyful, incredible, magical moments with you. And after 15 years, I'd be very disappointed. But that's part of it, right? Because if we, I mean, and again, let's talk about conflict a little bit, because I think a lot of people want to understand with us, if we have conflict at home, how do we make sure that it doesn't seep into business and vice versa?

1:10:53So like how do we manage conflict within our relationship? I'm going to tie this to what we just discussed. Yeah, please. What's the most important thing here? Like what's the most important thing? And you can have levels to a relationship. I don't have just one level of my relationship with you or anyone else. I have, some people do. Some people it's like just one bucket. Yeah, no, we have not, no, that's not my people. but some people just have one bucket. I have levels to a relationship and there's a work level but that has nothing to do with the fundamentals of my relationship with you or anyone else.

1:11:35I'm in love with you. That's the most important thing. Okay, so that's here. Okay, so now we have this work level. It might have some disagreements but that's really got nothing to do with all the fundamentals of our relationship or my relationship with anyone else for that matter. Yes, but I think - So you kind of have to, you know how to talk about, you wear different hats. Yeah, you wear different hats, but for a lot of people, that's very hard to understand. And for me, I'll be totally honest with you. When I first met you, that was hard for me to understand. I didn't understand how we would have a massive conflict in work, which you and I have and continue to have sometimes, and then get home and it will be fine.

1:12:15But I do think that that is the point. Like we have different hats and we are very, very, very, very good at leaving it where it is. Like it's not personal. Like with you, it's never personal. Emma boxers shake hands at the end of the match. Some of them, yes. Some of them, like the whole crew just like jumps in the ring and they all go fucking mental. So it's not everyone. They don't get married, do they? Hopefully not. No, but I mean, boxers shake hands. What I'm trying to say is that when I'm on the pitch, when I'm on the court, when I'm at work, I'm there to fucking win. I'm going to focus on what's going to make me win.

1:12:59Yeah. What's going to make us win? You know, what do I need to do to get to the best result? So just like there's a scuffle on the court, it doesn't mean that when you watch a game on TV, that those guys are, you know, taking that off the court. You know, some pushing and shoving on the court as part of playing basketball. Doesn't mean that they're not friends. It's the same thing. You know, when I'm at work, I'm in the game. When I'm at home, I'm out of the game. Why would I bring the game home? just because you gave me a little elbow under the basket doesn't mean I'll take that shit home to roast chicken and potatoes it's too true thank you for that

1:13:50we're firmly in full now and honestly it's my favorite season when it comes to fashion it's just something about the layers the textures and the boots that make things so fun to style and macy's makes it really easy to figure out your full vibe with their full fashion guide. It's like having a personal stylist pull together all the latest trends and must-haves in one place. This year's trends are so good. Weekend in the Country, the new boho and statement luxury. I'm most excited for that romantic vibe. I've got my eye on some chic little tops from Good American and I know they'll be perfect for layering.

1:14:24Then I'll switch it up with some warm layers like a faux faux bomber to give it that cozy but polished look. And of course you can't forget the shoes. They have a ton of loafer options that are so, so good. They're the perfect statement piece that can take jeans and a sweater to a whole new level. Honestly, fall is when my closet feels the most alive and Macy's makes it so simple to build looks that feel on trend, but still super me. Shop at macy's.com or in-store. Have you ever noticed how insane claims are in the skincare world. Look 10 years younger overnight or erase wrinkles instantly. And then you check the fine print and no science anywhere.

1:15:05That's why I've been loving Hyacera from Ritual. It's not about hype. It's about proof. Hyacera is a once daily skincare supplement that's clinically proven to reduce fine lines and wrinkles. I added it to my routine because I already trust Ritual. I take their daily protein after my workouts and their stress relief capsules when life gets a little too hectic. Hyacera just fit right in. And since starting, my skin feels smoother, more hydrated, and honestly, just has a nice glow. The science, though, is what really sold me. In a clinical study, Hyacera led to a 2.9x increase in skin smoothness and a 3.6x reduction in crow's feet wrinkles in just 90 days compared to placebo.

1:15:47That's not marketing fluff, that's data. Start Hyacera to support your glow without compromising on clean science. Get 25 % off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com slash Emma. Start Ritual or add Hire Sarah to your subscription today. That's ritual.com slash Emma for a 25 % off your first month.

1:16:13How do you think about everything that you've learned in your life and career and your business and our kids? And when you think about, you know, I do want to talk to you about money a little bit because I love to talk about money. But when you think about risk, resilience, like the things that have made you you in and around your career. How do you think about that as it relates to the kids? I want my children to write their own story. You know, Lola said that to me once. Yeah. When I told her to come to Skims and work. Yeah. She's like, no, mommy, I'm going to write my own story. Yeah, that's what you want.

1:16:49I don't want children who define themselves by their parents. Amen. I want them to be them. How do you foster that? You tell them. How do you do it? You do you.

1:17:08I don't know. I don't know how you foster it other than leading by examples. Generally, I think children are magical and there's a part of you and there's a part of me and the part given by God and they are their own people. And we're there to give them love and support and share our experiences and encouragement. But they're going to be who they're going to be. But what I would hate is if they define themselves, if their identity in this world is rooted in their parents' success or failure, why would I want that? Well, we are 100 % aligned with that. Wouldn't that be incredibly selfish? Incredibly selfish and incredibly sad, quite frankly.

1:18:02Yeah, but it's just selfish. Yeah. Do you have a moment that you think, I just wonder what you're most proud of as, not really as a businessman, but more as like a person, husband, father, Jensie? Well, first of all, let me tell you that I detest the term businessman. But you do know that you're a businessman. Jens, like seriously, you're a grown up in the office every day. Like just because you don't carry a briefcase, you are a businessman. That's how everyone, like all of your staff, all the hundreds of people that work here, that's how they see you. like Emma's a businesswoman and Jens is a businessman?

1:18:43Like it or not? Tough shit. That's something I would have to process. Talk to your therapist. I think I fired my therapist for asking me to do things that I didn't want to do. I wasn't willing to do the work. You weren't willing to do the work. You done a lot of work. I done some. You can take breaks from your therapist. That's all right. I was just one of the most proud of. Oh, I am the most proud of that I have I think there was a time in my life when I finished high school so I was around 18 and I had no plans and I wasn't particularly good at anything I thought I was really cool I was a you know kind of a always out and about you know in clubs and this that and the other and the irony of our relationship and they asked me earlier it's like tell us something that, you know, we don't know about Emma.

1:19:43They got you on social media commitments? They got some. But I'll tell you something they don't know about you, which is you're incredibly personable and you appear social. You're not a social person. Yeah. You're not a social person. You have a few really good friends. You don't like going out that much. you like to be with the people you love the same people for 25 years at home preferably please dear god no one thinks I'm a social person I'm the most social person the most all dinner reservations all group activities all things with our friends go via you I have so many friends I can't keep up it's true and I love it and I love all of them yeah I can do multiple drinks and dinners with different people in the same night just to fit people in I'd rather kill myself Yes, you tell me that often.

1:20:38Yeah, I'm not coming. I'm just not coming. When I said you want to come and you go, I don't want to kill myself. I don't want to come. I'm going to kill myself. I don't want to do it. So there was this time when I really didn't have a purpose and I felt that I wasn't swimming, I was drowning. In that moment, I think I had kind of come out into adulthood thinking somehow as a daydreamer that these daydreams were going to come true because I was I, you know, you know. So I was special. This was going to happen. And then nothing happened. And that negative spiral starts. And from that point, and I can pinpoint the daytime where I sat in the apartment and I just realized that in the end of the day, and it's not because the world is a cold, loveless place, but people are really busy with their own shit and their own lives.

1:21:40And they might be supportive, but only you can help you. You have to take care of yourself. No one cares more about you than you care about yourself. And in that moment, everything changed for me. I went from not getting into college, not having a job, being totally kind of purposeless with really low self-esteem to having, you know, a column in the daily newspaper to being, having a dream job, the coolest magazine. and my whole life turned around. And within, you know, two, three years, I was in London within five years, you know, I had raised money, started the business, was starting to have some, you know, early success in life.

1:22:40So it's having overcome that moment in time and being able to live my life and build a life that I can be proud of. That's the most important thing. Next company, the next idea, an investment working, not working. Again, what's the most important thing? The most important thing is that I built a life that I'm proud of. That's really meaningful. And again, when you're faced with adversity in life, I had what people would refer to as a soft bottom. Not a hard bottom. It's not like you totally crashed out, but it's a soft bottom. I'm grateful for that moment because I discovered a power in myself in that moment in time.

1:23:30And I had never seen it or felt it before. I used to be lazy. I became ambitious. I used to be waiting. I became active. All of these traits that used to drag me down was turned into this positive moment. So I think it was divine intervention. So knowing that, what advice would you give your 20-year-old self about both success and happiness? It's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. I have been so worried about so many of my friends when I was in my 20s. It all worked out. You know, we were in our early 20s and we were having no money. We never understood how we would be able to afford an apartment, how things were going to happen for us.

1:24:25And somehow for all of us, and you know many of them, it all worked out. It all worked out. It works out. then you cannot see it. You sit at home, you're scribbling, you're trying to figure out how am I... And I used to think that my whole plan is how am I ever going to be able to own a property? I couldn't make the math work and I didn't have the money for a deposit. You know, it worked out. But I might be an outlier, you know, on that scale. But I'm just saying generally, it works out. It does work out. For most of us, if we're at it, if we do the right thing, if we try to do the best with the talent we have, again, I've never seen anyone fail.

1:25:10It works out. So if it all went away tomorrow, like everything, the businesses, the money, like the whole lot, what's the first thing that you would do? I guess I would have to take an unpaid internship here at the Spire. Do it all again. Try to prove my value. We would take you.

1:25:34prove my worth. Again, if you don't have money, you have your human capital. You have you. So you put that to work. You better watch out Joe Rogan if Jens comes to work for us. I mean, that's what I think. What do you think success feels like today versus when you started? Well, they keep moving the goalposts for me. When I was young, I could never have imagined the life that I live today, that would have been far and beyond my greatest expectations. But as you do things in life, the goalpost shifts a little bit. So what success looked to me when I was younger or 10 years ago and what they look like today, of course they have changed.

1:26:25and I like to keep them to myself. And the reason I want to keep my ambition to myself, it's an emergency exit. If you don't know it, I don't feel put upon. I don't feel boxed in. I don't feel scared of failure because the only one that would see it is me. So I'd rather keep what success looks like to myself. but I can tell you I remind myself all the time about how lucky I am to be where I am today and if nothing more happened and if I achieved nothing else I would still be overjoyed with the life that I built yeah damn right you gotta lead with gratefulness gotta lead with being grateful alright one more little piece of wisdom from you, Jens.

1:27:19If someone remembered just one thing, like one sentence from you, what would you want it to be? That if it's not okay, that's okay too. We all catastrophize. We all think that what we're going through is forever. You know, when you're a teenager and you're unhappy in love, it feels like the world's ending. There's nothing beyond that moment. There's nothing beyond high school. There's nothing beyond that grade. And you can try to tell your children when you come home today, not to worry about how the first day in middle school was. That's all they're going to worry about. Middle school is an eternity.

1:28:02But it's going to be okay. And I think it's the most important thing for all of us to take with us that moments don't last forever. There's still water on the other side of the wave and if you're going for hell you gotta keep on going so good okay i'm going to take you to rapid fire you're right at the end let's do it let's do it all right the first thing you do when you wake up get you a cup of coffee and myself it is very true and thank you because i think that's the secret to a lasting relationship right i know how you like it Thank you. Damn right. The last thing you do before you go to bed?

1:28:42Sneakily look at the news, waiting for you to tell me to stop because it's too late. True. I mean, normally I would say watching Frasier or Seinfeld or any kind of sitcom that... Which we love. Yeah, which I love. Which we love. We re-watching... I normally kind of sneak a little bit of iPad news there. Yeah, I see it. I just let you do it. I just don't want that light near me. Yeah. I'm just like... It's unhealthy. No, it's not good. It's like, I just like, I put my phone in the other room and then there's somebody next to you with an iPad. I go to bed ready for tomorrow. I'm like, I know what's happening.

1:29:14Listen, don't we just know. You are my news. I basically get all of my information from you. And I like the arc of your news. You know, it's The Economist, it's The New York Times, it's The Washington Post, it's Wall Street Journal. And then you've got like the tea for me. Like, you know, some housewife is like something's happening with her. You know that too. You know, if something would happen to me. I would know nothing, no news. Jens, what are you currently aspiring to in your business life? To continue to surprise and delight our customers. I want to do things that is unexpected. And when they think they have an idea about what Skims is and what it will do next, I want to do something that surprises them.

1:30:00So you think we're doing so good at that. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life? a hobby to have a hobby you're not still on that one yeah I will never give that up you play tennis you like what kind of you go to the gym all the time you read a lot like what kind of hobby do you want you want to stamp collect stamps I go to the gym for you to want to stay married to me and to stay alive so I can be married to you and be around for the children okay thank you I play tennis because it's the best sport to stay off, you know, cognitive decline. Damn right. Also, it's fun. Yes. And you're very good at it.

1:30:39It's a combination of both. Yeah, I got it. Don't say I'm very good at it because I have friends who listen to this who's really good at it and they know I'm not that good at it. No, I will say, I think you're better than Pietro, not better than Jason. That is, I am worse than both of them. Considerably worse. You're better than me. If you wanted to know what we could be arguing about, it would be the fact that they would ridicule me because I have a wife who loves me so much she thinks I'm better at tennis than them which I'm not I'm not even going to ask you a book that changed your life because you're not really a book that changed your life type of guy are you?

1:31:18I have you to tell me what's in the books and I have you to tell me what's in the news this is how this partnership works alright this question I have for you what is something that you value when you were starting out that you no longer value? That's just not how I think. I can't even relate to the question. What do you mean value? Okay, yeah. It's like some people value other people's opinions. Some people think that money is the goal. Like, what's something you thought was important back in the day? I mean, then, or just explain to us how your brain does think. Okay. Something that I thought was important to be everywhere, to be seen.

1:32:00People think that showing up like, oh, I'm at this event, or I've got to be seen here, I've got to be at this dinner, and they think that somehow success comes from being seen. Success and being seen as almost, unless you're in the public eye, and the public eye is your business, as far as business success? Zero correlation. There's no correlation to that. Zero correlation. In fact, I think one of the things that is my, I would say my red flag for investing in companies and in founders, if you see them attend too many conferences. Because if you want to go to a conference and everybody to go, oh my God, I love what you do.

1:32:44I love your startup. and for you to spend all that time talking about something when you have like 20 stores or sold in one retailer because you have like a snickerdoodle brand and, you know, that's popular in Whole Foods. Like, no. No. Don't get so... Yeah, because you're too in love with the idea of being successful. Be in love with the work. If you're in love with the work, success comes. You'll have time to talk about it when you really have something to be proud of. But don't take this thing and like spend all this time talking about something you have yet to create. Create it and talk about it.

1:33:28Okay. What's something that you value now that you didn't value when you were starting out? Meditation. Meditation. Meditation. I think meditation is the greatest tool to find clarity, peace, give you energy, joy. I wish I had found meditation earlier. I found prayer when I was a child. But I would say meditation to me has given me a lot in the last five years. I mean, I've been doing it for a long time, much longer than that. But you become really serious about it in the last moments. Yeah, I practice it more diligently and in a different way. I really value meditation. It's one of my favorite habits that you have introduced me to because if somebody is meditating in your room at 6 a.m., it's almost stupid not to join them.

1:34:30And so I feel like it's one of those things that by, you know, virtue of you being really into it, I've got really into it. Yeah. And it really works. Like I literally think it's like a tool. And for someone like me, who's very highly strung, who's, you know, always on the edge, I feel like it's a really useful thing that just readjusts me and it works for the whole day. It's like whatever you did, whenever I've done it in the morning, I feel like my day pans out differently. Well, have you ever tried to run and play chess at the same time? Definitely not. No, but that's what we do, right? We run for our day, we run for our life, and then we're supposed to be strategic, have ideas, process, make the right decisions, handle things.

1:35:19So how are we going to do that when our breath is up here? Impossible. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. Meditation allows us to ground ourselves so we can make better decisions, so we have better coping mechanisms. again you can't run and play chess at the same time so i don't know why people think they can just run 24 7 without any time for reflection and reflection isn't just sitting down and like agonizing over what happened or agonizing what's going to happen tomorrow it's about allowing you a space for that intuition to do its work to build and you'll find a lot of peace and clarity for meditation so if you don't for those who don't do it i really recommend it this is like a slightly different thing for this podcast but because it's you there's a bunch of questions from our team okay okay and i just chose the really easy one i thought i was nervous before No, it's easy.

1:36:27All right. First question from the team. They want to know, how do we keep the spark alive in our relationship? I mean, look at you. That's not hard. Good art, CNC. It's a lot of work then. Obviously, you and I are very intentional about date nights. But I think the question is, when two people are very busy, like how do you keep something like that going? And after 17 years, It's like, are you just running out of places to go? Like, why do we keep them? How do we keep them? I think you have to consciously plan to do things together. But I often can feel like if we have a couple of weeks where we're a little disconnected and we're all both running, I kind of feel like there's a hole.

1:37:14I kind of feel like there's a void. And so we normally plan something and do something together. I think it's incredibly important, especially when you have children, to have time just as a couple. Because you're more than just parents and you're more than business partners. You're more than a married couple. You're also, you know, best friends and everything else. And you've got to give yourself time to do all those things together. Definitely. All right, this is a strange question, but they want to know, what was the moment that you knew you were in love with me? I don't know. That's a very you answer.

1:37:49I don't know. I don't know the moment I knew, but when I knew, I fucking knew. I just never had less doubt about anything. I can't pinpoint it. You know, I don't know. You're very lovable. I know the exact moment on the other hand, but that's fine. I know. I'm so disappointed to ask this question. No, you're the least disappointing person in the world. Thank you, my darling. Thank you so much for having me.

1:39:16Thank you. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

1:39:48we're firmly in full now and honestly it's my favorite season when it comes to fashion it's just something about the layers the textures and the boots that make things so fun to style and macy's makes it really easy to figure out your full vibe with their full fashion guide it's like having a personal stylist pull together all the latest trends and must-haves in one place this year's trends are so good weekend in the country the new boho and statement luxury, I'm most excited for that romantic vibe. I've got my eye on some chic little tops from Good American and I know they'll be perfect for layering.

1:40:22Then I'll switch it up with some warm layers, like a faux faux bomber to give it that cozy but polished look. And of course, you can't forget the shoes. They have a ton of loafer options that are so, so good. They're the perfect statement piece that can take jeans and a sweater to a whole new level. Honestly, fall is when my closet feels the most alive and macy's makes it so simple to build looks that feel on trend but still super me shop at macy's.com or in store