The Founder Playbook: How Michael Rubin Built Fanatics by Betting on Obsession

22:30I don't know if you've heard of them. You've heard of them? Yeah. Amazon. I thought if I didn't completely differentiate ourselves against Amazon, we would be dead. So it was really when I bought it, it was like, how do I differentiate the business? and then the strategies kind of evolved as we've gone. So yes, I know we had to be highly differentiated or we won't be in business because I watched what Amazon did to Toys R Us and Sports Authority and all these other retailers we worked with. So that fear was very helpful. But I think the reality is, no, I didn't know what I was going to do with the business.

23:00I bought it and just like, it was just that natural compass, like I'll figure it out. But it's so interesting to me that you had this thing and you were going to figure it out. And because to me, I look at Fanatics as such a differentiator in the marketplace, right? You own your space. You own the relationship with sports fans across all of the leagues and their purchases bar none. It's not like you have like so much competition. It's like Fanatics, Fanatics, Fanatics. And indeed, when I, you know, was partnering with Christine Juszczyk and we were going to start off season, all roads led back to Fanatics.

23:33If you want to be in the, you know, team sports business, if you want to sign with a league, you have to come back to you guys. And so I'm so interested in how you've been able to ring fence this incredible company and you've been able to keep everybody else out when seemingly it doesn't feel like it was this big strategic part of your plan. It was like essentially what you were left with and you had to focus on that. Yeah. So first, I don't think what you're saying is accurate at all. Oh, good. All right, tell me. Like I feel like - Because you feel like you're constantly under attack. In our entire business, across the board.

24:08Collectibles, business, trading cards, sports betting, merchandise. There's tons of competition with our job. But you're number one. We are number one. You're number one. You're the market leader. Every day, everyone's coming to kill number one. Well, listen, that's just your mentality. That's unbelievable. That's not my mentality. That's the truth. Wow. And the second I get confident is when it's over. I really feel like the second you get confident, That's why you're so successful. They kill you. And so I feel like I want to run this business like we're a startup. I'm only looking and saying, what are all the things we're doing wrong?

24:40I got to tell you something. In each business, we have things we're great at. We have things we suck at. We have so many things we need to do to be better. We think our biggest thing we need to do is keep growing the categories that we're in, keep innovating. Let's take the example of the business that you and I are partners in. Talk about off-season. Talk about Kristen. Kristen reached out to our company for years, and she couldn't get anyone to respond to her, give her the love because we acted like a big company. Okay. Then one day she did something, she put, she, you know, she dressed Taylor Swift.

25:10I saw it all over. I started following her back. I'm like, wow. Like I love what she's about. I love this. And then small world, I find out that she's partnering with you. And by the way, at that point I had to chase her and chase you to say, let's partner together. That didn't bother me. I didn't, I didn't mind saying, Hey, the opposite, right? You were like, what can I do for you guys? How do we partner together? How do we do something great for sports fans? So like, you know, a lot of people would say like, is the CEO of a 22 ,000 person, you know, $11 billion revenue company next year going to chase?

25:40That is literally what we said. And you know, I was like, I loved it because I had so much respect for her vision, so much respect for you. I'm like, these guys are killers. Like, what could the three of us do together? And what could we do for sports fans? So the second you get comfortable and think, like, look at like all the changes that are happening in their power and footwear business today. And you say like, nothing's forever. And you know what? We have to keep figuring out how to do what we do better. And there's so much that we can be better at. And so, you know, one of the mistakes I think I made, you know, in the first decade of the business, we were so worried about competition.

26:16We weren't focused enough on how's everything we do going to make it better for the fan. And now, like we actually, we had, I'll tell you, talk about turning a failure into a success. We had, obviously it's, it's well known at this point. We had a pretty, you know, tough experience in baseball last year with the jersey. And, you know, as everyone knows, we're partners with Nike. We're partners with MLB. We make the jerseys together. And, you know, everyone in the desire to innovate wanted to kind of change the baseball jersey. And it's not what fans wanted. And during that period of time, and by the way, we got, you know, Fanatics took the brunt of most of the, and there was a lot of consumer noise.

26:52You know, hey, these pants are see-through. These jerseys suck, this, that. And what did we do? Number one, we listened and we revert it back together with Nike baseball and ourselves. We got to revert back to what fans loved. Number one. Number two, how do I use that to make my company better? And literally, we had been talking about brand purpose for the last year. And I was like, what is this brand purpose bullshit? Like, is this just like, you know, consultant noise? And then it hit us. It's like, we need to relentlessly enhance the fan experience in everything we do. And if you ask us, when you go to do things, and we do a lot of things, is this going to relentlessly enhance the fan experience?

27:27If the answer is no, don't do it. Well, I could look back to a bunch of things we did in the past where it didn't relentlessly enhance the fan experience. And now we're going back and we're saying, we're re-questioning everything we've ever done to say, how do we be better? So you feel like everything is anchoring back into that brand purpose. Everything has to go into that brand purpose of relentlessly enhancing the fan experience. So when we started the sports betting business, we said, hey, if we give you back money in every bet that you make, you can use anywhere on our platform. The other thing we do is players get injured in sports all the time.

27:56If a player gets injured in the first quarter of a game, we cancel that bet. We're the only person that does it. So what are people saying? Finac's is the most rewarding sports book. And by the way, they're the fairest sports book. Why? By the way, we've picked up. As of this month, I just saw this morning, we have about 7, 7.5 % of the market. We've been live for two years. Wow. Okay. And we're now the distant third, but we're the third biggest online sports betting platform. From people telling me two years ago, I had no chance. Now, talk about sports betting. We made a gamble. It's my biggest gamble ever.

28:25I had no idea whether it would work or not. Still not 100 % sure it's going to work or not. I said to people, hey, I'm making a billion after$2 billion gamble. I think I'm going to be right, but I don't know. But you have to have the confidence to say, is this a big enough business I want to go after? Am I comfortable with what happens if it doesn't work? And so I know I'm a little all over the place in this answer. No, but you're not. I'm kind of walking you through how my brain thinks. But I think it's so interesting to think how your brain thinks because there'll be so many people listening to this podcast who want to start a business or have started a business.

28:53and your mentality is what makes you so interesting. It's your approach and your, like the idea, like it kind of makes me laugh that you still feel like you're being constantly chased. And I get it for you. I get, listen, I believe you. You're being constantly chased. But I think it's really interesting that you've orientated all of these businesses around this mission. And when you're starting out, do you think it's really important for young people or for people that are just like getting into something? Is it important to orientate yourself around a mission? Because I feel like we hear so much about purpose, about mission, about purpose-driven companies.

29:29And what does that even mean when you're beginning? Yeah. So I would say if I had the chance to start over again in 2011 with Fanatics, I wish I had that brand purpose then. Right. Because I think we'd be a better company today. Fair enough. I think in our online sports betting, iGaming business, we started with that mission. In the collectibles business, we started with that mission. In the fangirl business, we were starting in 2011. We didn't have that mission. And I think now that we have that mission of everything we do has to relentlessly enhance the fan experience. We keep going back and saying, well, what doesn't and how do we change it?

30:03And so I think that's the fun part of building a business. Like, let me ask you a question. Skims is roughly how big today? It's big. Okay. It's big. How many people didn't care about you five years ago and now said they want to kill you? Oh, a lot. Right. Right now, when we're doing this podcast together, You got people out there looking at it. What's Emma doing? What's Jen's doing? You know, what's Kim doing? What are you guys doing? How do we kill these guys? Because you guys are winning. 100%. So that's, you're lucky to be in that position. But if you don't stay on your A game, you're going to be dead.

30:34And how much do you look at the competition? Because I am always looking at the competition. I look at everything. And let me tell you something. When I see something I like, I copied as well. Okay. I'm proud of that. I'm so happy that you are honest about that. When I see a great future, we're not doing that. I'm going to get straight onto it. Do you think everyone should do that? Because I don't think many people are honest about that, right? Then they're dumb. The entire fashion business works on the premise. Everybody cross shops everybody's brand. Everybody looks at everything that's happening.

31:01And yet we all pretend that we don't. So I'm so interested in you just going, you see a feature on someone's website. You're like, I'm putting that in tomorrow. I pay attention to everything. I look like, I look at social media for one reason. So I see what's going on. Like I look at, I follow every one of my competitors. I follow everyone who's interesting I follow everyone I can learn from and I'm sending stuff to people I probably send 20 or 30 posts of different shit to you know people who I work with every single day so that's how we learn that's like if you don't do that you're dead now that doesn't mean like if someone's got something really original and apparel in it like they're known to own it I may not want to I may not want to copy that but let me just take like we're in the business like our original business all the fan gear that we sell we sell more than 100 million units of Fangio this year.

31:50Okay. If we see something great in another business, we're absolutely going to find a way to bring that to our sports fans. Okay. And one of the things that's interesting about the Fangio business, what we were really good at was servicing the average sports fan. Why did I call Kristen so many times? Why did I call you so many times? Because you were doing something different. You were saying, how do I cover that fashion forward, higher end sports fan that I knew we weren't doing a good enough job with? Why did we start bringing in Lululemon merchandise in hockey? Because we knew our fans wanted that merchandise.

32:23Why are we expanding with Nike and so many products that we didn't carry before that we're not carrying today? You know, we keep figuring out how can we do things better for the sports fans. So I think if you don't pay attention closely to your competition, you're dead. And I think when your competition does something good, in a lot of cases, don't be proud. Like I learn from my competition all the time. Yeah, just get in there and do what they're doing and try and make it better.

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34:52What else is it about you that makes you successful? Look, different people can be successful. Like I, like I know so many, like I'm always studying people. You'd see somebody who's like wicked smart, but they don't have great people skills. I'm the opposite, right? I'm honestly not that smart. I mean, people think again, oh, he's being self-deprecating. I got a 780 combined on my SATs. I think that's really bad. I mean, I'm English. It's really, let me tell you, it's really bad. It's not the score from the movies. Most people will listen to this. I bet you 80, 90 % of people got better than a 780 on their combined SATs.

35:28Okay, it's bad. Okay. And you know what? I embraced it. So what do I do? I'm going to outwork my competition all the time. I'm going to use common sense. I'm going to use relationship skills. I'm going to have a will to win that nobody else can stop. And you know what? I know that will gets things done where everybody else would give up. I'm never fucking giving up. Let's talk about the work ethic. Because one thing that I know about you is when I text you, wherever I am in the world, you usually text back, if not in the same minute that the text has gone, but within an hour, right? Like you're very much Like it's, there's a lot of immediacy around the way that you communicate.

36:00You know, I feel like you've got this sort of band of people around you. You have a very specific way of working. But when I think Michael Rubin, I think the work. I think the person picking up the phone, sending the email, making the communication, making the connection. You do that feverishly, furiously all the time. And I just wonder if you feel like the amount of work that you put in has a direct correlation to how successful you've been. Or you could have, you know, could you have done this like working three days a week? Zero chance. What I'm trying to figure out is how I can get an eighth day in the week that only I get.

36:39Okay. I can get a 25th hour in the day only I get. Let me know when you figure it out, will you? So look, I've had a couple of changes in my life. Interesting. interesting i realized that i can't be glued to my phone the way i have been because it's actually screwing my brain yeah so now what i'm learning to do is i put my phone down for an hour here an hour there my oldest daughter's 19 she does it's not like where you know she called me she deemed me right away so i'm actually learning to put my phone down you know for periods of time you know generally like an hour at a time right because i don't want i don't want my concentration to be broken.

37:14I think I can have a much better discussion with you. I'm 100 % focused on you and not having my phone with me. That's a change. That's a new thing for me in my life. And how often are you doing that? Are you doing that every day? I'd say each day I'm probably putting my phone down probably 20 to 30 minutes during dinner when I'm with my kids. I try to do it because I just think I shouldn't be it. Like that's the 20, we're fast eaters. I grew up like a Labrador retriever which is I eat quick. So, but in that 20 minute dinner, you know, 30 minute dinner, I want to focus on you know, my family. I don't want to focus on work.

37:45And the other 16 to 18 hours you're working. And then I'd say, maybe a meeting or two a day, I'll just leave my phone on my desk. Now, I also have a crazy OCD habit about myself. I cannot go to bed without responding to everybody on my phone and deleting every message I've dealt with. So my phone - Okay. I do that. I don't delete the messages, but I have to deal with everything that's in the inbox. So ever since I've been a kid, like if you looked at my phone right now, I wouldn't have more than 20 or 30 total messages. None on red. Okay. Because that's how I keep myself in order. So before I go to bed, I can't fall asleep.

38:18No matter how fucking tired I am. I can't fall asleep if I don't just respond to everybody. So I'm - That's a nightmare trait, isn't it? I don't always respond during the day, but I'll always respond before I go to bed. Because if not, it actually tortures my brain. I need my phone to be completely organized. So then I know the next morning, what are the things I have to do that are in my phone from the day before? So that's like some crazy OCD thing about my brain. Also, if you walk into any of my offices, there's no paper. They're perfectly organized. I'm very OCD like that. I've always been that way.

38:49But I do think, you've got to figure out what works for you. This works for me. And I do, I'd like to be in touch with the people that are around me. I liked even, there's probably like, there's this guy in Philly who used to be like a complete detractor fanatic. He would tell us all the shit we were fucking up and doing wrong. And then our company was too dumb before. We didn't bring detractors. And now anyone who doesn't like us, Oh, bring him in. We want to bring him in and learn from him. Yeah. Okay. So this guy now texts me all the time, but I pick up good things from him. I'm always like, it's this customer I just built this relationship with.

39:20And I'm like, always this, this, I love the guy, by the way. It's like, like I'm learning from the guy. He's like, he's, but sometimes there's things, the news he sends me before. So it's like, like I like I'm glued to information like that. And I think it makes me better. No. And I think it probably does make you better, but going back to the work is your expectation that everybody else is going to work like that around you. Because it can't be 22 ,000 little worker Rubens running around 18 hour days and taking 20 minutes. I don't think that's realistic for the 22 ,000 people that I work with.

39:47I think that would be illogical, not real, like living in a fairytale. What I would say to you is, if you want to be a fanatics, you have to have a will to win. Okay? And if you just like, if you just want to come in, you know, hit the clock, be nine to five, this ain't for you. Okay? That said, people have lives, people have families. Like, you know, I'm not a big work balance. life person. That's not who I am. You and I've talked about that before. I'm like, people are like, how's your work life balance? Like, I don't have any. Okay. Because it's all work. Because I love it. And not everybody could live up to the expectations of being like that quick all the time.

40:20Look, I would tell you, if you look at my direct team, the people I work with day in and day out, the six or seven people that kind of run the business with me, they have that intensity. And that's your expectation that on that level, the most senior leaders in the company have to be like, they've got to be glued in. Like I have that intensity, love it, be here for the action. No one that I'm with is in it for the money. Like they don't want to see the report cards. They want to see they're doing well, but they're in it to win in a big way and to make it better for the fan. And so we're so obsessed with like, if you just saw the emails every day, it's everything that we could do better at.

40:56It's everything we could build to be better. It's like, we're always just trying to do better. And so that takes a relentless, you know, kind of focus. if I didn't have it for my key team, then how would that go down the organization? It never would. The person that works in a warehouse or a lid store is going to have the same intensity of a top executive company. No, but by the way, some of our next leaders work in the warehouse. Maybe the future CEO fanatics, when I'm dead one day, is in a lid store today. They're in a warehouse today. You don't know. Roger Goodell started in the mailroom. He's been the commissioner of the NFL for whatever since the last 15, 20 years.

41:30So like, to me, like, I love that story of like, you can will anything to happen, but I'm realistic as well. No, I feel like it's, it's, let me tell you that I'm somewhat real. I was going to say you're somewhat realistic, but the point is that your work ethic is completely unrelenting. Like that, that is what has got you to where you are now. 100%. And if I didn't, we'd be killed because there's so many, we were in three different businesses with lots of competitors all figuring out how they can beat us. And so we have to be better. No, and I understand that. You have to keep doing things for the fan that are better.

42:02And if we're not unrelenting about that, we're done. Yeah, and someone else will be. I want to talk about the money because you just mentioned money, that no one in your executive leadership team is in it for the money. Were you ever in it for the money? Because I think about so many people that, you know, they're in jobs, they're thinking about starting a business and they're like, I just want to make more money. I want things to be better for me. Is that a good reason to want to become an entrepreneur or to start your own business? No. That's a pretty simple answer. I mean, like, look, it's easy.

42:36And so before anyone's going to shit all over my answer, let me just preempt it. Okay. Obviously, I've had more than enough financial success where I'm never thinking about money. Okay. That said - Does that make you happy, by the way? Is that to you some sort of like, is there a sigh of relief when you say that? Or is it just so normal now? I just don't care. You've been rich for too long. You don't care? I don't act any different today than I did in 2009 when I didn't have enough money to pay the mortgage on my house. I know that that's the truth. I am the same exact person. And that's what makes me me.

43:08And so I think if you look at the people that are the most important people in our company, they're driven by the mission. They're driven by making it better for the fan. They're driven by trying to do the unthinkable. They're driven by like just winning at the highest level. and then generally the report card is money does follow, but that's not what they're driven by. For me, I don't care about it at all. Now, again, I know people can say, well, it's because you've been so financially successful. So do I think as an entrepreneur, you should be in it for the money? No, I think you should be in it to build, to disrupt something, to build something great, to do something awesome.

43:40And by the way, to have so much fun, do you really like, let me ask you a question. How much fun do you have doing what you do? Oh, you haven't. First of all, I think that I am the luckiest girl in the world. I feel so happy that my job is to come to work every day and I get to work with like jeans and undies. And I work with the, to me, I work with the best people in the world. I absolutely love it. Having said that, I am someone who, if I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't come here if I wasn't making any money. Like that has been an important part of what has driven me. I've never gone after something purely for the money, but it's like, I'm happy that I've made some at this point.

44:20And I did, I definitely feel like there was a time in my life where I was like, okay, I have this job and I'm not making enough money. If I get another job, I'm not going to get paid that much more money. So taking it into my own hands and going, do you know what? I'm going to try something for myself was why I became an entrepreneur. I was like, I reckon I can do better and pay myself more than where I'm getting paid. That was the primary reason for me going, I've got to get out of the place where I'm being paid 30 grand a year. For me, I was born an entrepreneur. I came out of the womb with those, those instincts.

44:52And by the way, it's, it's kind of weird. Cause like, um, my family, there's no signs of business anywhere else. So interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I got a DNA check or something, but you know, like I, like I eat, like even as a kid, you know, what I always loved was to be able to play the sport of business. That's what I've always loved. And today, what drives me more than anything is trying to do things better than we do it today or better than our competition. And to try to keep, you know, just like, I want to build the most important brand in sports. I want to build one of the most important consumer companies in the world.

45:29We're not remotely there today. Like, I was just telling someone this story. I think I was telling your husband this. Like, I watched the Nike movie. I think it was called Air. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I watched it like when it first came out two years ago. And I remember going to Google Phil Knight. How old was he? He was 85. I'm like, I was 50 the time I Googled him two years ago. And I thought to myself, wow, I have 35 more years to do kind of what he's done. Like, what can I do over the next 35 years? So I really do think of ourselves in the startup phase today. I think we have so much opportunity to, you know, build each of the three businesses we're into making so great for consumers and to build something global that every sports fan needs.

46:11And then, by the way, we'll think about what other businesses do we want to be in over time? Not today, but over time, once we get better at all the things we're doing. So to me, that learning is so fun. So when I think about, you know, kind of what's in it from kind of, you know, a job or a career perspective, I think the learning is what turns me on. Yes. That is the thing that gets me most excited. I think if you as an entrepreneur go to build a business, if you just go to build something great, great shit follows. And by the way, sometimes it won't work. Sometimes you're going to fail. And then you learn from that.

46:42Like I could go back and chart some of my biggest failures and say, man, I learned so much from that. And that helped me for my next success. And so like each of my big failures, like, I don't know, they could have been disastrous, but they, they, they leaned into something next. I did. It was great. No, I mean, it's so clear to me. It's interesting that you say you were born to be an entrepreneur and it's so, it's so interesting because I feel like I don't even think I knew what an entrepreneur was. I had no ambition to ever start my own business. And it's, do you, I just wonder if you think that can be people become entrepreneurs.

47:20I feel like, you know, it's like I worked a corporate job until I was 24, 25. And if you are one of those people that's thinking like, I just need to do something different. What does it mean? What is it going to take? Like, what do you need? Like, what are those key things when you boil it down? And this is not necessarily just about you, but what are you looking for? Yeah. So first, I think it was in you. It just never came out before. I only wish I met you when you were 24, 25. I would have had you on the Phenetics team and we'd be that much better. Now I have to partner with you to build off-season to be on the same team.

47:56We got there eventually. Thank God. It took you until you were 26, 27. Thank you very much. Look, I have seen lots of people that were in different jobs find that entrepreneurialism within themselves and then go out and do absolutely amazing things. I've seen lots of people go out and fail miserably and then do amazing things afterward. So, you know, to me, I think it's about having the self-confidence to not be scared to fail. It's about having the ability to come up with the right idea and test the idea and make sure it's big enough to go out and put your energy into it. And it's about doing things you love too.

48:33You have to love this. If you don't love it, like why do it? But do you ever deal with like pain? Like, do you have that in your business? Are there times when you're really taken aback by something that it actually, it hurts? No. Never. I'm going to tell you why. Because I'm immune and numb to it. Like I've had so many, I could go through like every week of this year and there's always disasters. There's always, you're like. This year for sure. By the way, I'll give you an example. It's like someone walks in and say, hey, this tariff thing came. It's going to cost$100 million. I'm like, what are we doing about it?

49:07How do we turn this into an opportunity? Like you can use these things. But you wouldn't, as someone who's so ambitious, right? If you're going to take$100 million of revenue out of the company this year, that means you've made - No, it was actually profits. Profits? Yeah, profits. Oh my God. All right. I mean, first of all, even worse, right? But then that means that you then can't do something else or something else has to slow down. That doesn't pain you being as ambitious as you are? Sometimes those can be really good things because you build up, like right now, here's the way so you go straight to like take your existing crisis we're in right now the tariff crisis okay I got together with my team that business 7 billion dollar business we have 8 ,000 employees in that team actually more than that in that team and I said guys this is a great opportunity like we have to reinvent our supply chain we have to be fast like and by the way the CEO of that business is amazing this guy amazing he's so good he's been talking about like well now we have to do these things faster like we need to own less inventory we need to turn faster we need to change how we actually make goods.

50:02Like I'm almost excited by it. I will tell you, I had not one negative feeling to someone saying, we're going to lose$100 million in profits, not revenue. This year, great. How do we help that to be better in the future? I could give you 10 examples right now of different things like that. I mean, you know, probably the only thing where I feel pain, probably I came up with one thing where I feel pain. I'm so glad you got there because I was going to try and do this one. A sight outage. That is one thing. That's meaningful for you. the customers can't get in the shop now we understand no I'm being serious I remember Superbowl like five or six years ago there was so much traffic the site went down I feel like someone stabbed at me and I'm caught and like you know if you keep calling the guy who runs technology he's not actually he's trying to fix the problem with his team but like if the sports book is down like something like that that actually that kills my inner soul okay because I just want to fix it I think I feel pain maybe if something goes wrong for my kids yes you know but in business No, because like, I think one of the things of a good leader is someone who can deal with whatever comes at them in a calm and thoughtful way.

51:05I calm down during the most difficult period. So when like shit's going crazy, that's why I think we have to be calmest, most focused, like game on. No, it's such a brilliant piece of entrepreneurial advice, actually. And I heard Tom Brady once say that when everything's going crazy, you got to slow down the play. You just got to like slow it down. And I think that it's really interesting because you can be in these moments of overwhelm where everything goes on top and you just have to make everybody feel calm. And as a leader, that is such an important component of what we do, because I will tell you that this week in our companies, it is sheer panic.

51:46These tariffs have completely upended everything that we do and it changes the entire face of the company. And if we were to all just descend into panic, I mean, people wouldn't know. They'd start leaving, right? Your best people will be like, oh my goodness, she's panicking what's happening. So you really have an opportunity to show what type of leader you are. You can't panic because the reality is every consumer company that makes merchandise is dealing with this issue. And by the way, you're going to be able to reinvent your supply chain. Like, look, China is probably not going to be a place where a lot of American companies make merchandise because of the relationships right now.

52:20And by the way, China, they're a really good partner in making merchandise. But you'll figure out, how do I shift that? How do I make my company better? Like I know in 2026, Skims will be a better company from what you went through in 2025. Absolutely no doubt. I'm sure of that. Absolutely no doubt. And even though many companies are taking a drop in value today, the good ones will be more valuable next year because they figured out how to take advantage of this opportunity. So you naturally have a very long-term view. If you're, when you're building something, you're thinking about these new divisions.

52:47Are you thinking in five-year increments, 10-year increments? What does that look like these days? Yeah, I'd say I generally try to think about what things look like in the period of five to 10 years. Like I don't think about what's it going to mean over the next year or two years. Cause I think that's too near term focus. I think it's what, what can you do over five to 10 years after that? I'm like, okay, I hope I'm here. So she, you know, like I think five to 10 years is kind of the periods of time that I think about, I think you can do a lot five to 10 years. You can build something that's really, you know, a leader.

53:13You can do something that's just so good for the fan. If you take that kind of long-term mentality.

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56:36You talk about pattern recognition all the time. Can you explain that to me a little bit? Yeah, I think history is a great prediction of the future. So, you know, one example that I've used is I interview more people in a given year than anybody at my level. And the reason is I realize How important people are To our company That is the most important asset How much of your time Are you spending Interviewing people You know I bet you In a given year And I work You know probably 80 hours a week On average 78 hours a week Every week Probably 80 hours a week I'd say 10 to 20 % Of my time Okay And During that period of time I've never asked somebody For a reference in my life Why?

57:22Because anyone I meet I'm going to figure out who I know that knows them. I'm going to do backdoor check. If you ask me for a reference, I would call the people that I gave you and say, hey, make sure you tell Emma this about me. Definitely. Anyone who's listening to this, when someone asks you for a reference, if you don't - I'll be like, he's amazing. Anyone, when someone asks you for your references, if you don't give them the three or five references, then call each reference and tell them what you want them to say, you're not thinking very clearly. Damn right, yeah. Okay? So for me - What are you doing instead?

57:53because I know you're calling around. I'm calling around and I'm checking on how have they been? What's their history? Sometimes I'll meet someone and I'm like, this person's fucking incredible. I found the person. What questions are you asking? When you reference someone, what are you asking? How well do you know this person? Are they a killer or not a killer? How smart are they? How do they work with other people? And I got to tell you something. Of people that I interview that I love, two-thirds of the people I hear bad shit about. Okay? And I hear stuff that they don't work well with others.

58:22Okay? Someone can be so smart, but they're going to be disruptive. That doesn't work. Okay. Another thing that I would hear is they're kind of like they're political. I don't want politics. I want entrepreneurs. What's a non-negotiable for you? When somebody is interviewing with you or you're going through that referencing period, what is an absolute no-go? Someone has to have a track record in the past of being a winner. Okay. Track record is the best prediction of the future. So what are the pattern recognitions you want to see? How has the person done? Are they a winner? Okay, do they find out how to win?

58:59So you can always find that by talking to people that they worked with in the past. And I think the second thing is, how do they work with others? Because when you interview somebody, you can't see how they work with others. And you really can't see, like, take anything great. How many, what's the best products Kim's make? Best products? The number one product. I mean, there's just so many. But what's the number one product? The ultimate bra. Okay, that ultimate bra. how many people do you think in the world say they invented that ultimate bra? I think there's quite a few. 50 people? Maybe. Yeah.

59:27They're all going to run around. Yeah. I promise you. There are dozens of people saying I invented the ultimate bra. Yes. Okay. So if I interview the person who says I invented the ultimate bra I'm going to Emma or Jens or Kim and saying who invented this? Yes. Okay. I'm figuring that out to figure out are they full of shit? Are they real? Okay. So one I want to figure out you know are they a real winner? and two, I want to understand their track record and then how do they work with others? It's pretty damn good. I like that. One of the things like you are so you like in every single room. I was very fortunate to be.

1:00:01No, no, I mean, you really are. You don't change for anyone. And I find that such an appealing, like it's just, it's a very attractive quality in someone that you just like remain the same. And I came to your Superbowl party, right? And it was like the who's who of everyone. Everyone that was important in sport plus me. And so - That means you're important in sport as well. Apparently. I'm about to be important in sport. You are important in sport. But you know, the thing that was interesting to me is that you are just being you. You're being you around the commissioner of the NFL. You around all the players, the celebrities, the talent, the media moguls, like the whole thing.

1:00:38Like, I feel like there's such a - People feel like they need to be a chameleon. They feel like as they climb the ranks, whether it's corporate or they start something that they have to like change themselves. You have clearly not done that at all. Was that purposeful? Like I just, I'm trying to understand like where that level of authenticity and you being able to always be you, like where it comes from and why it just feels like such a big part of your brand. I love putting great rooms together. Because what happens when we put great rooms together? Great things happen. I remember seeing some of the people you went up to talk to.

1:01:12Oh yeah, me, I was like busy. correct and by the way I said I came with a face sheet right and I said who do you want to meet let's go see these people one by one and to me when you put great people together great things happen but for me if I'm not just me then I think people think like he's full of shit he wants something from me they see through it they know you're not authentic so like I can't even like I don't ever like I dress like this every day I don't ever like I think I wear a suit like you know once a year for me yeah you didn't have a suit on then a wedding you know a funeral or something like where you have to wear a suit like you know I'm a casual guy like I don't try to speak more properly because it's not me I curse because I want people to know like you're not cursing here but I am because that's who I am so I think like owning who you are something that's really important and by the way like I just try to be my like my best self all the time and I think I think it does work for me and I think people know like that they can trust that and um and I'm also like you see in those rooms I'm still picking things up from people like crazy.

1:02:13No, you're, you know, you're picking things up, but you're also putting people together. Which I love doing. Consistently, but you do it without, and here's the thing. People love a favor for a favor. You don't ever ask for anything back. And I find that so interesting. Like, I feel like you've hooked me up with so many people at this point. And I'm waiting for the phone to ring and you to be like, hey girl, like I need this thing. But that doesn't seem to be your style at all, whoever I speak to. Well, first off, I would call you for anything I need to know you would do it for me. That's true.

1:02:42Well, I would now. That's true. But look, look, I think when you try to be calculated about if I do this for that person, this is what they'll do for me. I think you're dead before you start. Like, I always think if you just do great things, it comes back. And so I think I've been fortunate that I like, look, I have guys like Robert Kraft. It's one of the, you know, he's one of the most important owners in sports, you know, he and his son, Jonathan Kraft, they took me, like, they kind of took me in like 2008, 2009, and they helped me so much in business, both with advice and relationships. They never wanted a thing from me.

1:03:17And by the way, they would kill for me and I would kill for them. And like, I wouldn't be here today. This, I'm very sick. Without the two of them, I wouldn't be here. I would not be here today. Okay. There were a number of people like that, but I want to do that for everybody that I can. And I don't ever want anything, but I also know like people always like friends work for each other behind the scenes. And so like, you know, to me, I remember saying to you when you were in the corner, you know, who do you want to meet? And, you know, I remember taking you to a couple of different great people.

1:03:43And like, I was honored to do that. Never thought about it again until right now. And what's going to make me happy is to see you do something great with, you know, one of those businesses and, you know, whether it's Nike or Target or whoever it is, it's like great things to come. And that makes me like so proud and happy that I could create a room in an environment where people could come together and look, I love bringing great people of all different backgrounds together and watching great things happen. Okay. And that is something that I'm actually pretty good at because I have such a diverse group of friends and people trust me.

1:04:13And then they come in here and I think they're open-minded. No, you knew everyone in that room was someone you want to spend. So whoever came up to you, you're like, Hey, it's going to be good. It's like, it's worth your time. It's a great, it's going to be a great contact. So I can, I can completely see that you authentically do that. And it's become a great part of your business, of your brand, and it completely works because you really are. And it does feel that in karma, by the way, for sure. If you never were. It's calmically beautiful. Of course it does, right? Because I feel such a warm feeling to you because of the way that you've behaved.

1:04:41And again, when we did our deal, and I will say this because I think it's such an incredible trait, took us six months to get through the legal. But what you told me in the first meeting, what we would do, how we would do it, the deal that you were prepared to make is exactly what we did. and I think when you can take someone on their word like that, that says everything you need to know about that person and so if you did call me for something, I'd be like, yeah, Michael Rubin, he's the real deal. Like, he's a great guy and that is like so seldomly the truth. Like, me moving from England to LA, like, I have not seen that very much.

1:05:14Well, first of all, thank you. It's the truth. Number two, I will eventually call you for something and I know you'll help me and I don't know what it will be but like, that's just what family does. I'll be waiting for the call. That's what family does for each other. I'll tell you, it's funny, when we were talking about off season yesterday and your husband and I were talking about this, he's like, yeah, you know, a lot of this is sourced in China. China's completely, I said, whatever it is, we'll figure it out. Like, it's all good. Totally. And by the way, if we need to lose money, you know, on the next launch, the next two launches, who cares?

1:05:43Like, we're a big believer in your wife. We're a big believer in Kristen. We're a big believer. Like, it's just like, we'll figure it out. Like, you always think long-term in these things. I think it's so interesting just going back to off season and thinking about like what's happening in like really specifically around women's sports at the moment. And, you know, our business is about all sport, but I feel like there's like a time and a moment where things happen in culture and it collides and it makes the right environment for you to do business. You've been around for a long time. Are you as excited by women's sports and the business opportunities that sit adjacent to that as everyone else?

1:06:17Or like, are you less excited? Like, I really want to understand because You have the customers, you see what's happening, you have the sales figures. Like, what's actually happening? Yeah, I'm the most excited I've ever been. And the reason is, since 2011, I've always been saying it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. But it wasn't really here. Now we have two major opportunities, where we have a couple of major opportunities. The one is women's sports in general has so much interest from the whole world. And so it's become a real business. Like, if I think about the WNBA's business five years ago versus today.

1:06:51I mean, what an incredible league it's become. I look at what's happening in each of the women's sports. I think there's never been more excitement. Separately, think about the women's category of merchandise. We have sucked in that category. There's been so much - I'm glad you know. Yeah. As they used to call it, shrink it and pink it. Okay? And so - We know the people that did that. Right. So when I look at what you and Kristen are doing, when I look at the Lululemon product that we're now carrying, when I look at, you know, the work we're doing with other people, it's because there's such a big untapped opportunity.

1:07:24Totally. Again, what I think Fanatics was best at originally was taking care of the average sports fan, of which there's billions of. But the problem is when you have billions of people that are sports fans, there's so many niches. And what we didn't do as a good job is in the niches. Now we're so focused on thinking about each customer segment separately. Yes. And that's a big opportunity itself. That's a big growth opportunity for us. Yeah, it feels like it's going to be a massive unlock. Like when you can get women's sports a power, right? And I really believe that off-season has a huge part to play here.

1:07:52I mean, women love buying clothes. They love buying clothes with a frequency that is very different from how men buy them. So I'm just very excited by the space and the opportunity. But how do you think women, because of course, look, sports is still at the kind of epicenter and where the decisions are made. And more importantly to me, where the money's made, it's still super male dominated. How do you reckon that women can actually get involved in what's about to become a really important business, like a really big money generating business? First of all, in our biggest business, the fangu business, our business is only about 15 % women's and about 12 % kids.

1:08:32It's 50 % bought by women. Yes. Okay. So they're controlling the money. They have the purchase power. They have all the purchase power. So let's not forget they are, I'd say, the most important person, you know, in the household. Thank you. I'm interested actually having worked with you a little bit now and some of the people in your company, but more importantly, the women in your company, you've really got a lot of very incredible senior women that work around you as well. Has that been purposeful for you to cultivate that? Do you think about, I've got this many male leaders, maybe I need to balance it with women.

1:09:04I just wonder because there is such an intrinsically different way that women operate to men. And I just want to understand your opinion about that and how you see it in terms of leadership and then more thoughtfully, like as it extends to women and women's sports. So the way I think about it is the population represents our fan base, right? Because we have 115 million customers. And so we have every type of customer, you know, buys, bets, collects with fanatics. So we need to have a workforce that represents our fan base, okay? Yes, you do. And by the way, if you think you're going to get there without working at it, NFW.

1:09:42Like it takes real work and we're not near good enough at it. Like we have the workforce that most represents our fan base today than we ever have. We're not near enough good at it. Like we got to keep getting better at it. We got to keep developing people. So yes, we work very hard at it because I think it's in our best interest of how we build a better company that will be more successful if our workforce resembles our fan base. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. When you, I'm so interested because I do see your daughter around you so much. And I wonder what you hope that she'll learn from you by being around you so much.

1:10:16So I want them to learn work ethic from me. I want them to see how fun what I do is. What my daughter said to me, and it was actually one of the proudest moments I've had with her. She said last year, at the end of the summer, we went and grabbed dinner one night. She's like, dad, I just want you to know, like we have so many friends that are like influencers. She goes, I want to build. She actually, she's dying to do what you do. She wants to build a fashion brand. She wants to be the entrepreneur that builds it. and she wants to be well-known for building a great business. And for me, what I want her to do is just live out her dreams, okay?

1:10:45Of course you do. That's all any father wants. Yeah, she just hit me in the way in two collabs we have to do. She's always telling me about collabs that we should do together. And by the way, she'll tell me like, this person's hot. You got to check this person out. You should do stuff with them. So yeah, like I'm learning from all the time. And I love those conversations. I do want to ask you a question before we get to like a final, final questions. Just give me an idea of the things that you think about from a habit point of view that have become non-negotiable and just the things that like form the most important parts of your life.

1:11:19And really, I really want to understand them as they, as they link to you being successful. Like what are those things that you just have to do? Yeah. So I think the first thing that links to my life is owning who I am. Like I'm not trying to, you know, be a fake person. Hey, like, you know, I put my kids to bed every night or like, you know, I'm like, by the way, with Kylie, when she was younger, I was in a situation where I did put it about a lot of nights, but like Camille's the most incredible mom. And, you know, Camille's like, hey, I got the kids. You go do your thing. We, you know, we find the windows, but like, like I love working.

1:11:53I'm like owning how much I love to work and it's what I do and not trying to like. Apologize for it. Apologize. That's number one. I see that. Number two, non-negotiable, you got to work with great people. And I will not negotiate on that. And when I think someone's a liability, see ya. And by the way, certain people can help you get to one place that can't get you to the next level. You got to know how to just like, I love you. Move on. Move on. One of the biggest pet peeves I have is someone who tries to bullshit me in any way, shape, or form. And one of my biggest strengths is I have great bullshit detection strengths.

1:12:31So like, if you're trying to bullshit me, I will pick it up. I hear, like I hear everything. I pay attention to everything. So I will very much, the second I don't trust somebody, gone. Yeah. You're just decisive AF. I'm very decisive. You are, right? You can curse by that. It's okay. I know. I keep feeling like I'm on the tilly. Yeah. You are decisive as fuck. I am. There you go. Thank you for enabling that. That was great. I'm here for you. We're going straight to the rapid fire questions. Okay. Michael Rubin. You ready? Here we go. Rapid fire. All right. First of all, what's the first thing you do when you wake up?

1:13:04That's the most obvious answer in the world. No, come on. What do you do? You pick up your phone. For the fourth time since I've been asleep. You are not supposed to. No, no. You don't get to look at it in the middle of the night. Of course I do. Who doesn't? Oh my goodness. I'm exhausted. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed is check your phone? Obviously. I mean, this was the easiest thing ever. What kind of dumb question was that? For you, it was a really dumb question. I'm going to meditate. Okay. Michael Rubin doing a little humming out I mean try have you tried it? I tried once it didn't work yeah it lasted 20 seconds what are you currently aspiring for in your business life?

1:13:41it's a great question I'm inspiring I want to build the greatest brand in sport that every sports fan in the world it's like I love this company and we are so far from that we have so much to do but that's what that's my dream right how do I build something everyone's not like not they you know it's just where you go to buy something or it's where you go to bet it's like we just make it so much better for the sports fan like that is like so exciting to do and so that is the thing i'm obsessed with is like how do i build something it's like just sports fans billions of sports fans love this that's a great answer what about in your personal life what are you aspiring for there you know it's harder as you get so i'm 52 even though i act like a kid and look like a kid you know I think at my age health like yeah it's you know I travel with a trainer I right now I'm having like my neck is always I have a PT person's working on my neck every day because my neck is just pretty uh cranky um so I think it's it's it's health like if you can feel good I think it's like I've had the last couple months just like some you know like just you know fighting just like you get older you got to work at that harder it's the most important thing what is a piece of advice that you've been given that changed your life?

1:14:52I remember being on a walk with Robert Kraft in late 2011 and 2012. I was on the phone with a commissioner, very unhappy about something they had done. And I was like, all I want to do is win that battle. And when I got off the phone, Robert said to me, Michael, give it to him because it's all about the long-term partnership. and you know, you're too focused on the individual win, even though I was right. You're too focused on the individual win and not focused on just having that right long-term partnership. And that was a good moment because I chilled out. I took a deep breath. Even though I didn't agree with what they were saying, I did it the way they wanted and it paid dividends.

1:15:40Yeah, I bet it did. What's something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't anymore? I think when I was starting, maybe even until 10 years ago, I was a work hard, play hard person. I really don't like, people see my life, they see like the five fun things I do a year and they think I'm super fun. Like, I don't value, like I just value building my company. It sounds like obsessive and people are going to be like, he's a fucking weirdo, like all he cares about, you know, is building his company. But like, you know, I'm less concerned, like the time I used to have to go out and, you know, like I think building a great company is fun.

1:16:12Yes. So I don't, I think the things that people would say are fun, you know, maybe I care less about now. That's really the answer to my next question is something that you value now that you didn't then. What do you value now most of all? Well, for sure, it's got to go back to health. I want to do this in 50 years. I want to do it in a healthy way in 50 years. So I think I really have a huge respect for health. I'm spending time on that. I'm focusing on that. I value relationships. I really care about my relationships. I think they're really important to me. I think I wouldn't be who I am without those relationships.

1:16:45So I think I feel fortunate to have so many incredible relationships. I want to respect them, give to those relationships. Those are probably two things I think about. They're great things. Great things to spend your time thinking about. Thank you so much for coming on the Aspire podcast, Michael Rubin. It's been a pleasure. Honored to be with you. Thank you, darling.

1:17:06If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. A Spy with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilead-Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, Leah Reese-Dennis, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristen Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker.

1:17:42Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox and Kurt Courtney. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at Jones Works and WNE, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E, with me, Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me. In football, value isn't just about making flashy plays. It's about consistency, durability, showing up.

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