Why Financial Education is the Best Investment You Can Make (Tori Dunlap)

20:03Emma Grede:Let's just say that right now. And so - Because it's so frustrating for people to put those two things together, right? It's gas lady.

20:09Tori Dunlap:It's like the woman who is a single mom working three jobs doesn't need to work harder. Like that's not the answer. So in my work, I think it's really important that we acknowledge the 80 % of the financial equation that is not in your control. The systemic forces, the racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, a trillion dollar student debt crisis, stagnating minimum wages.

20:30Emma Grede:I want to just double down on that a little bit because I think it's so important for people to understand. You just said the 80%. 80. Right? It's so much that isn't within your control. And so you getting a hold on the 20 % that is potentially within your control. Life-changing. It's an imperative. It's life-changing. But it's not like, maybe I should do that. It's like, if you don't, there's all of these forces outside of your control that make it an impossibility for you. So I think just as a framework for people to think about, it's like, we know it's really difficult. We know that it's like absolutely without, you know, we know that it's completely without your control, but that's 80 % of it.

21:06Emma Grede:So you just got to like shift your attention and be like, this is the stuff that I can wrap my arms around. I'm getting so many messages from women every day

21:14Tori Dunlap:going, what's, what's the economy going to do? I'm freaking out. Am I going to lose my job? layoffs are happening left and right, right? The best thing you can do right now when everything feels outside of your control is to take your financial education seriously. It is your most powerful tool right now so that you can dictate your choices so you can leave when a situation doesn't respect you or turns unhealthy. So you can say yes when you want to say yes, because you don't have to worry about money. Like this is the thing I need every single woman to hear is a financial education, it has never been more important than at this moment right now.

21:54Emma Grede:I couldn't agree with you more. So let's talk about this in practice. What does it look like in practice to take your financial education seriously? Like what can people do as a practical next step themselves? Yeah, I mean, one,

22:07Tori Dunlap:listening to this episode is a great place to start. There's that. There's so many resources. There's never been a better time to learn anything, right? The democratization of knowledge is massive, right? So there is so much content out there to teach you how to be good with money. That's my whole job. But I think before we even think about, oh, the podcasts and the YouTube and the books and all of that, you have to start understanding your money narratives. You have to start understanding your financial trauma. And I know that's not fun. I wish I could come on here and be like, I can just give you a like staples that was easy button and you can just hit it and like suddenly you're rich.

22:39Tori Dunlap:Right.

22:39Emma Grede:But that's not how this works. One of the three things that we need to know to better understand our financial narrative. Take me through it as if it's you and you've never done any of this work. What do I need to understand?

22:50Tori Dunlap:I think that money narrative, that money memory is huge first. First money memory. It's going to tell you a lot and it's also going to go, oh, the reason that I push away money is because I saw somebody who had a lot of money or who I believed had a lot of money was not a good person, right? Okay, that's why I push away money. The second thing you have to do is you have to know your numbers. And I know this sounds so obvious, but nothing's going to change unless you change it. Nothing in your life changes unless you change it. And you can't change anything until you know what's actually happening.

23:23Tori Dunlap:The vast majority of people I talk to, I go, how much money do you make? And they probably know that answer, right? Because they know their salary. And I go, okay, where does it go? Where do you spend money? How much do you save? Blank stare, right?

23:34Emma Grede:The eyes glaze over. And I really want to just double down on this a little bit because this also is for business owners. Like I speak - Emma, it drives me crazy when people are like,

23:43Tori Dunlap:I'm not good with numbers. Too bad. Or I'm terrible at math. I majored in theater, Emma. I have a theater degree.

23:51Emma Grede:I'm dyslexic. Yes. We are the best two people to talk about this. Literally. And so I do want to just say, and again, this is by no way, shape or form supposed to make women feel bad. But let's just generalize for a little while because I very, very rarely hear this from men. I'm bad at math. So somebody else deals with the finances. I, you know, could never wrap my head around numbers well. So I don't know the answer to that question. You do not have a choice, right? Like tell me if I'm wrong. You have to know your numbers.

24:20Tori Dunlap:And it's also, money is not about numbers really, right? It's about your emotions. It's about managing your emotions. And so many women, that is the number one thing I hear. Oh, I'm not good with math. So I'm not good with money. I'm not good with numbers. I'm sorry, too bad. Like I'm really, you have to understand what's going on. And this is where I can help. This is where there's so many people out there. But I think also if we think we're bad with money, we just think we're born with the good with money DNA trait or the bad with money DNA trait. But like, I didn't come out of the womb learning how to play the tuba and speak Portuguese, right?

24:53Tori Dunlap:But somehow we expect, oh, I'm just supposed to know how the stock market works. And I'm supposed to know.

24:58Emma Grede:So you're like, you can learn this stuff.

24:59Tori Dunlap:It is a teachable, learnable skill. And yes, you're going to be bad at it for a while. Just like if I try to speak a language, I'm going to mess up, right? And it's not going to be good. but it's so important that you stay in that vulnerability to learn. And that's where looking at your numbers, it's going to feel really scary at first. So my third thing that you can do, this is one of my favorite practices and I call it financial self-care. Everybody wants to talk about self-care, like it's bubble baths and face masks and you know, a glass bottle of wine. Right. And at the end of the day, those are self-soothing actions.

25:31Tori Dunlap:Those are things you do at the end of the day when you've had a hard day to like recalibrate. That's great. That's not self-care. Self-care is hard shit. Self-care is going to therapy and eating a salad when you don't want to eat a goddamn salad and having a hard conversation with a friend and looking at your money. So what I have, I've built this practice for myself that I also teach where you're going to sit down once a month. I love a Sunday, half hour, probably in the early days, it might take you longer an hour, but you're looking at your money. This is on your calendar. It's non-negotiable.

26:03Tori Dunlap:Maybe it's something you look forward to. You get takeout from your favorite restaurant. You get to actually enjoy it.

26:07Emma Grede:I mean, you can put a face mask on. Yes.

26:08Tori Dunlap:Have your glass bottle of wine. You can double up on this stuff. Absolutely. But like, it's going to feel uncomfortable at first, but this is how we look at our accounts. We look at where we spent our money. We don't do it without any shame. And that's the big piece is I'm just like an anthropologist in my own life.

26:25Emma Grede:Break this down for me. What should people look for?

26:28Tori Dunlap:I'm looking at my credit card statement. I'm looking at subscriptions I forgot to cancel. I'm looking at double charges, right? There's sometimes fraud on your account. But you're also looking for a purchase that you made that in the moment you go, what the hell was that? Like, I don't even remember spending my money on that. And on the flip side, you're also looking at purchases and going, that was a great use of my money. That was a night out with my friends. We had a great time.

26:50Emma Grede:So it's almost like you're educating yourself on your spending patterns, right? You're literally looking at this and you're like, oh, look how I do this, like over and over again. And again, no shame. Actually some good decisions here. Right, no guilt. You're not going, oh, I'm a piece of shit

27:03Tori Dunlap:or I can't do this. It's just like, interesting. But it's recognizing. It's information. And then beyond that, what we don't talk about enough for women, we talk about a lot of like the spending, right? Everybody wants to talk about how much women spend money. I want to talk about how do you earn more money as a woman? Like how do you earn more money? How do you make money work as hard as you do? So that's where I'm talking about making sure you are in the right savings accounts, making sure that you are not just putting your money in a checking account, but it's in what's called a high yield savings account, which is just like an everyday savings account, except it's going to earn you more in interest.

27:34Tori Dunlap:This is where your more short-term goals should be. So an emergency fund, I want to buy a house in two years. That's where that money should be hanging out. But beyond that, we have to be investing as women because the vast majority of women statistically are either waiting to invest compared to men or not investing at all because we believe it's too risky. We believe that investing in the stock market is no different than going to Vegas or betting on horses. 100%.

27:58Emma Grede:And this is where these emotions come into play again, right? Because then also the narrative. Yeah, of course. And a lot of this is just stuff that exists in the culture. It's not even about your own money relationship. It's what you hear and what you're told every day.

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29:31Emma Grede:So I'm dying to talk to you about both saving and investing, seeing as you're the lady that did it at 25 and 27. So let's actually go to saving first. Yeah. How did you save$100 ,000 at 25 years old?

29:46Tori Dunlap:I always like to acknowledge the privilege in my story because I think that's really important. Go on then. I graduated college without student loans. And that was a combination of my parents having saved money for me. But also I was working three jobs. I was, you know, getting my scholarships, but it was a very collaborative conversation. We would, before every semester, sit down and be like, okay, how are we paying for this? And I love acknowledging that. And I think it's really important because I wouldn't have saved 100K that quickly if I had student loans. So that's the first thing. Second thing I did is automate my savings.

30:13Tori Dunlap:If you take one thing away from this interview, dear listener, it is automate your savings. I think we think that we get a gold star if we make this as hard as it has to be. Automate your savings.

30:23Emma Grede:It's the easiest thing you can do. And when you say automate your savings, you're like, have a standing order, direct debit. I don't even know what you call it in America. But you're like, have a payment that comes out of your wage before - Come out of your checking account,

30:33Tori Dunlap:goes into your savings account. Maybe that's every time you get paid. Maybe that's once a month. And you can start, if you don't have a lot of money, 20 bucks a month, okay? And you're like, that's not a lot. So like, why would I do anything at all? No. One, it's happening without you having to think about it. And two, you are building the muscle of saving. Because if you can save$20, you can save$200,$2 ,000,$20 ,000. Damn right. It's the same habit. So you're building that good habit. Automate your savings. The second thing I did was I diversified my income. So I had my nine to five job that I was saving a portion of, but I was also growing her first 100K on the side.

31:06Tori Dunlap:Right. And for a couple of years, that didn't make any money. That was my side hustle. Absolutely. And I have every intention of taking that full time. But when it started making decent money, cool. I got$400 a month. That doesn't sound like$400 a month. Think about how life-changing for the average person,$400 a month is like, that's a lot. That's huge. I was also investing, right? You mentioned, I started investing at 22.

31:29Emma Grede:Who taught you how to invest at 22? My dad. And that's the other privilege of the financial education.

31:34Tori Dunlap:Yes. And that's why I do, again, I knew I was not going to get through this interview without crying at least twice. That's right.

31:39Emma Grede:I love a good cry.

31:40Tori Dunlap:That's why I do the work that I do because I thought that was normal. I thought everybody knows not to overspend on credit cards. Everybody knows how to save money. And I realized very quickly that that wasn't the case. So not everybody has a dad to sit down with them. I'm your dad, right? I'm the person who's going to help you do that. But I was so lucky where my dad sat down and was like, okay, here's what an index fund is, which for anybody listening who doesn't know is a group of stocks. So rather than trying to like cherry pick individual stocks and which by the way, nobody can do successfully, we're picking a group of stocks.

32:09Tori Dunlap:We're helping diversify where our money is. And that's how I started investing through a Roth IRA. And I also was really focused on negotiating my job, negotiating my salary and job hopping. Now, it's a little different now because the job market is different. But 2016, when I was graduating college, it was very imperative that you did not stay in a job too long. And I think this is still good advice. If you don't feel compensated fairly,

32:38Emma Grede:You got to move.

32:39Tori Dunlap:You got, you have one of two decisions, really. You are asking for a raise. And if you don't get it, you are then saying, what do I need to do in the next six months to get to where I want to be? And as you're doing that, you are looking for another position. I did not stay in a role longer than like two and a half years. Wow. And you have the most leverage when you first start a job. And so the moment I was like, I think my income's pretty capped. I was onto the next thing.

33:04Emma Grede:That's so interesting. I mean, these are really, really good hacks. So do you think it's massively different now? If you think about between those 10 years, between 2016 and 2026, for somebody sitting here now, how much are you insisting that people are, I'm not saying like just moving around, but really pushing their own financial agenda forward? Like how much should we be in conversation with our employers to say, I need to earn more money. And then once you get that little bump in your money, how are you treating that? It's a great question.

33:37Tori Dunlap:It is different. Like, it's hard to believe how much has changed in 10 years. Like, everything's more expensive, absolutely. I think the principles are correct. And also, my 100K journey is going to be different than anybody else's, right? But at the same time, I think the way women view money has changed since the pandemic. I think when we were a holdup in 2020, and especially for mothers or people who are caregiving or just had to think about somebody other than themselves, which I think every woman was doing, we started asking really good questions about the way we earned money, which was, is this working for me anymore?

34:15Tori Dunlap:Like, is the system that's set up for the way we traditionally earn money, is that working for me anymore? And the answer is no, it's not working. It's not working for women. And I have seen so many women create generational wealth for themselves and for their families through entrepreneurship. And you mentioned, you know, 100K at 25. I did that working a corporate job where I was never making over 100K. I think I maxed out at like 77 ,000. That's pre-tax, right? The reason I went from 100K at 25 to multi-millions at 27. Yeah, I did the investing. I did all the smart, you know, the budgeting and the debt payoff.

34:54Tori Dunlap:I did all of that. But the reason that happened as quickly as it did, entrepreneurship. That was the only thing that really, you know, rocket shipped my wealth.

35:04Emma Grede:And was there anything in your mind that was holding you back? Like, did you sit there and procrastinate for years? Of course I did, Emma. It's interesting to me because again, 100K would feel like, all right, this is giving me, you're making 70 odd thousand dollars. This is going to give you a year's runway and some to try and get this thing that was clearly already working into a place where it could be your primary kind of, you know, income. but you were still scared.

35:28Tori Dunlap:I was still scared. And you did it anyway. And I did it anyway. And I think that is a whole different conversation about the way women view risk or the way we've been taught to view risk.

35:38Emma Grede:Well, let's talk about this because I think that risk is inextricably linked with our feelings around money. And investing. And a lot of it is very real, right? Because if you've got dependents, if you're looking after kids, if you've got family members that rely on you, it's a real risk. You can't just be like, I'm going to up this job. But I think that we have to wrap our heads around these emotional barriers that stop some of the good decision making. And I think risk is a huge one for women because we just find it so hard to get past this idea that we're going to like, you know, put it all on red.

36:13Tori Dunlap:What we're taught as women is that things are not just facts. They're our identity. So you didn't just have this thing fail. you are a failure, right? I didn't fail at this. I'm a failure, right? This person I went on a date with, it didn't work out. So it must mean something about me, right? We do this over and over again in life. And I'm here to tell you that if you want to be successful, whether it's growing a business, being financially okay, just having enough money to do whatever the hell you want to do, you have to stop viewing everything that happens as your own personal responsibility.

36:56Tori Dunlap:And so the way we view risk as women is it's like, that felt like the biggest decision to me, even though I look back on that now and I was like, okay, what if it didn't work out? You would have been fine. So actually a question I ask myself a lot is like, actually, what is the worst that can happen?

37:10Emma Grede:Because that's really helpful to me and comforting. And how bad will it be? Because at that point you're 27. And I think what happens so much in our minds is that we imagine that everything is forever. I'm 43 years old. Like I'm in, you know, what, like my third kind of professional chapter and you just keep going and going. And some of it works. And you learned. And some of it doesn't, but it's also how you treat the failure, right? Because I've failed a million times and it's like, is this egg on my face or is this information? And I think when you shift it and you go, this is information, this is actually something that I can chalk up and say, I won't do this again next time.

37:46Emma Grede:The reality is that when, and this is, you know, a lucky part of my story, I am surrounded by men in business, like everywhere in my life, my investors around in, you know, the guys I hang around, my own husband, his friends, and I see them fail over and over and over again. And I see them lose a ton of money and I see them like have disasters in their business and they go on to the next one. They're also allowed to do that. Well, and that's the part of it, right? But I feel like there's this huge kind of societal part that's like, okay, we know that within the culture, we don't allow women to do that so well, but it can't be, you can't add your own narrative to that as well.

38:25Emma Grede:You can't be like this terrible, I did this terrible thing. It's like, okay, what's going to happen in the outside? Like that is noise. And slowly but surely that is, I believe it's changing a little bit. Not as quickly as we want it to be, but it's changing a little bit. But you can't add to that narrative and make, you know, be your own worst enemy? Well, and the way you practice taking risks

38:45Tori Dunlap:is just these small micro moments, right? Like I am happily partnered now, but when I was like out on, I was going to say out on the streets. When I was out there and, you know, when I was in my whole faith, no, it was like, I would just go up to men and ask them out on a date. Now, would I love if they said yes? Of course. But I was not doing it in the hopes that they said yes. I did not put the weight of the interaction on the outcome. I was doing it to build my own muscle of risk. So I was like, okay. And every time my, you know, palm sweaty, knees weak, arms set, like every single time I was like, oh my God, I'm about to ask this person out.

39:22Tori Dunlap:It's so scary. It's so invulnerable. I would do it. Didn't matter. The outcome, right. Did not matter. Didn't matter if I got a number. Did not matter if they're like, you're ugly. Did not like, it did not matter. But I took the risk so that I left feeling like, okay, I'm still alive. Nothing bad happened to me. I'll never see this person again. If I botch it, fine. You're losing me now, baby. I've never asked anybody out in my life.

39:45Emma Grede:You don't need to. I know, no, but it's just not so, it's so funny because I feel like I'm, you know, and again, everybody like chooses their brave, right? Everybody chooses that way. But pick that version of it for somebody listening. But I love this idea that you practice this skill somewhere else in your life. And inevitably you will get rejection. Yep. But again, it's not the end of the world. As for an upgrade at a hotel. But that's, and it can come from all of these things. But you've got to ask. You've got to put yourself out there. You've got to actually practice. And then you start realizing

40:13Tori Dunlap:your brain and body actually start realizing. I agree with you on that. Oh, I did this scary thing that like I had an emotional, like physical, physiological response to. Like I got sweaty and it's like there's a bear chasing me, right? Like your body doesn't feel any different. And then when you survive it and survive it again and survive it again, you're like, oh, I can invest in the stock market or I can start this business because if it doesn't work out, I'm still going to be okay.

40:36Emma Grede:You're still going to be okay. All right, let's talk about investing. Yeah. Because this is one that really trips people up. And there's something amazing that you say about rich people, poor people. You say your line, which I just love. Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, it's my favorite thing that you say. Speaking of my body just getting flooded and sweat. I'm like, Emma, what am I talking about? So you go, something you go like this, you go, investing isn't just for rich people. Yeah. It's how people become rich. And I was like, I just know that so many of the women that surround me. And so many of the people that I work with, they're like, of course I can't invest.

41:11Emma Grede:I'm not rich. And I'm like, oh no, no, no, you got it. You got it all wrong. Like this is going to help you become rich. And when you said it so beautifully, by the way, I should have just taken the line. But it was so, it's such a truism because I feel like just the majority of people just go, investing is for those people over there with the lots of money. Yeah.

41:31Tori Dunlap:So we've been talking about money narratives this whole time. One of the worst money narratives I hear is that, again, the reason you're not rich as a woman is because you spend money and pick thing, right? You spend money on lattes or manicures or blowouts at the salon, right? So then the answer is scrimp, right? That is one bad math because there's only so much you can scrimp on, right? Like let's say we cut everything fun. That's not actually going to do anything for you. That's not going to make you rich. That's not going to make you financially stable. But two, that is insanely gendered, right?

42:06Tori Dunlap:The things that we get told are frivolous spending are the lattes and the Taylor Swift tickets. It's not NFL season tickets. It's not video games. It's not. That is so crazy. It's not golf clubs, right? So what is the advice for men? The advice for women? Shrink, right? Stop spending money. That shopping trip, your shopping addiction is the reason you're not rich. But the advice for men is very good. It is expand. Rather than shrink, it's expand, make more money, invest in the stock market, negotiate your salary, start a business, invest in real estate. So this is what I want to talk about because this is how people actually get rich.

42:42Tori Dunlap:And this is the advice you don't hear for women as much that actually has the ability to catapult your wealth. So you're right. Everybody thinks investing is just for rich people. Investing is not actually about the amount of money you have. It's about as much time as you have. So the joke I always make is like, do I wish you invested yesterday? Absolutely. But like, we have to get started today. So what that looks like is investing through a workplace retirement account. For the average person, that's like a 401k. If a 401k is not offered, that's a IRA, which is an individual retirement account.

43:15Tori Dunlap:And a lot of people tell me, oh, I want to start investing. And I go, cool. Do you have a 401k? And they go, yeah, but that's not really investing. No, it is. It's actually the best kind of investing because it's what's called tax-advantaged investing, meaning that the government is incentivizing you to save for retirement by offering you tax breaks, which is incredible. The mistake, though, I see women make time and time again that I half, I just like, if you've been tuning us out. I know exactly what you're going to say. If you're somewhere and you like are half listening to this episode, I need you to dial back in.

43:45Tori Dunlap:Women don't understand that investing is a two-step process.

43:48Emma Grede:They don't make the selections, right? Yes. It's so funny because when I came to, I mean, again, The system in England is very, very different. It's very different. So I had to relearn it when I came here. And so, of course, you know, we have these wonderful companies. We offer a 401k. Everybody got their 401k and then didn't do the second step. And I was like, guys, you have to go into this thing and you have to make selections. But that is just not widely, I don't know. It's not taught. Why is it not taught?

44:16Tori Dunlap:Oh, Emma, why isn't it taught? Because a multi, multi-billion dollar industry exists by making you feel like you're too stupid to understand. Okay, there's that. They have built these platforms to be way more confusing than they need to be. Right. So that you give your money to a wealth manager that, by the way, has no idea what they're doing. Yeah, they're making you feel like, I can't do this. Again, I don't have a degree in finance. I never, nobody ever taught me this.

44:38Emma Grede:But this goes back to the financial education piece, right? Yes, it does. Because it's your responsibility to figure this stuff out. And also taking the jargon out of it too. That was my next question for you because there's so much jargon. And again, I feel like, you know, again, I'm much older than you, but I came here eight years ago and had to relearn all of that jargon because I felt a responsibility to my staff to explain it to them. I was like, guys, this is not going to work for you in the way that it's actually set up to work for you.

45:06Tori Dunlap:So that two-step process is so crucial where you're opening the account, the 401k, the IRA, the brokerage account, which is just a general investing account, but then you have to choose your investments. So it's not like a bank account where you just put a thousand dollars in and you like wipe your hands and you're good, you have to go choose your investments. So that account is not the investments, the index funds or the individual stocks. If you want to go that way, like those are the investments. So what I do when I invest is I put money into my investing account, put money into my Roth IRA, let's say that's 500 bucks.

45:34Tori Dunlap:And then I go buy$500 worth of an index fund, right? It's like getting a gift card. I like have purchased the gift card. I need to go buy things with the gift card. But you're exactly right where the jargon is not an accident. The jargon is meant to make you feel dumb. And it's also meant to make men feel smart. Like, honestly, it's just there to like, you could call all of these things different names and make it much simpler. But I think it feels more sophisticated if they have a sophisticated name. Got it. And really, at the end of the day, that is what investing is, is putting your money in these accounts, making sure you've actually purchased your investments, or else your money's just sitting in purgatory and then doing that over and over and over and over again.

46:17Tori Dunlap:And that's investing. It's not much more complicated than that. And how often are you looking at that? Once a month. Every month, once a month. Yeah, in my financial self-care time, right? In my money date time. But I think beyond that too, this is where we have to create systems with our money. And this is the thing I don't think enough people talk about, which is you will go through a state, maybe after you listen to this episode, where you realize I have not looked at my money in a long time. and then you will become obsessed and you'll look at your money all of the time. I don't think that's a bad thing.

46:46Tori Dunlap:Like this is the hero's journey. You're going to go on it. I can't tell you not to. You're going to look at your money all the time. The goal actually is that we're getting you back to a point where you barely look at your money and it's not because you're ostriching. It's because you've got everything dialed in. Yes. I have automated my savings. I've automated my investments. I know where my money's going. I make more money. I know what to do when I then make more money. and this is like where it really becomes fun because suddenly then money again continues to be a tool and it's not your obsession anymore.

47:19Tori Dunlap:You're not checking it all the time. It's just like, oh yeah, I know this is working because I've set up systems to support it working.

47:25Emma Grede:Absolutely, and I think that that's a really key point because we're so much sold this idea of getting rich quick and things changing overnight. And the facts are that when you're investing, it's a slow burn. Like no one is just getting really wealthy overnight. But I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, this is about the long term. This is about you being great when you're 60 and 70. So will you just explain about, you know, just a little bit about compounding interest and how people should really view their investment portfolio?

47:59Tori Dunlap:You're exactly right. Investing is a long term game. It is not day to day. It's not week to week. It's not month to month. It's not really even year to year. We're talking years, if not decades. And there's so many people out there telling you, oh, you can day trade and you can buy and sell stocks. And it's, no, it's fully a scam. Like it's fully a scam. Don't do that, girls. And when you would think that investing's gambling, that is gambling. That is what we're talking about when people think investing's gambling. If you choose something like an index fund, that is a long-term diversified investment where you are holding it for years, if not decades.

48:35Tori Dunlap:So yes, as much as, again, I wish I could come in and be like, I'm going to come on the show and teach you how to get rich by next Tuesday. Like that's not happening. And it's not because I'm not good at my job. It's because this is how this works is investing is a long term strategy. And fun fact, it is never lost. So women are so afraid of losing money on the stock market. If you put your money into an investment and you take it out the next day, you're going to make money half the time. But if you keep that investment in for a year, your percentage goes up to around 60 % over a 10 year period, it's 88%.

49:07Tori Dunlap:And over every single documented 20-year period so far in the 100 plus years of the stock market, you've been 100 % likely to make money. So if you're scared of losing money, the answer is to be patient. Yes. And again, it's not a fun answer, but that's the real answer.

49:22Emma Grede:Yeah. I feel like so many women are told to like wait until they feel ready before investing. But when is that feeling ever coming to you? Ready is not a feeling, it's a decision. Thank you.

49:33Tori Dunlap:It's everything. Oh, when I feel ready, I'll start that business. When I feel ready, I'll do my fitness goals. When I feel ready, no.

49:39Emma Grede:Yeah. The confidence comes actually from action, from you being in it, from you having done it, from you making the selections. You're living proof of that. You are like the best role model for that. Thank you. I'll take it.

49:49Tori Dunlap:It is so important. Like if you have big goals, and I know you do, you're listening to the show. You are not just going to have inspiration or motivation strike. You are not going to suddenly wake up and be like, I'm going to undo 10 years of financial trauma. It's going to take work. It's practice. It's going to take work. Yeah.

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52:40Emma Grede:So for someone that feels intimidating, like what is the first decision? Like what do you do to get actually started investing? Like outside of the 401k piece, how does someone start?

52:51Tori Dunlap:Yeah. I think all of those narratives, again, we have to work through. I mean, I will shamelessly plug because I'm really proud of it. We have a community.

53:00Emma Grede:First of all, it's not a shameless plug because I think that the work you do, the community that you've built, Financial Feminist, is excellent. Thank you. And I feel like for anyone that actually... That means a lot, Emma. No, and I mean it really truly, and that's the reason I've got you on today. For anybody that wants to take their financial wellness seriously, it is an incredible show to listen to because you are really digging into this. And again, not just from a practical way, but really thinking about women's emotional response, what's happening in the culture, what we know, what we've been told.

53:30Emma Grede:and you've kind of built this beautiful platform where you are actually moving women forward in the way that they're thinking, in the way that they get to action. And I'm sure you've got a lot of results. I'm sure there's like a ton of women that are doing incredible things after they go through your courses, after they've listened to the podcast, after they've, you know, had, you know, because I know that you do a lot of, what do you call it? Just inspiring. Sure. Just inspiring. No, we get great results. I'm really proud of it. end of the day, there's a huge impact that's coming out of the work that you're doing.

54:03Tori Dunlap:So one of the things that I was lucky enough to be able to do last year is I rang the opening bill at the NASDAQ Stock Exchange. And it was because we have helped women through our stock market school community invest over$135 million. I mean, that's nuts, isn't it? Like, again, I like get so, I'm a cancer. I cry at everything. I'm like, it makes me so, so proud. And it also isn't just hypothetical or just education. It's actually bridging wealth guess. So the reason we built this community is because there's a lot of courses about how to invest and that's great, but you're not actually necessarily doing it.

54:37Tori Dunlap:And then there's a lot of the platforms that you get on and immediately they're so confusing. So confusing. I'm a financial expert. They're so confusing. So what we've done is literally built an investing app from scratch for the Her First 100K community. So we're not just teaching them how to invest, but in that first call, we kick off with like this live workshop. I teach them how to invest 45 minutes in, they make their first investment. And what happens is I always check in with them because the emotions of money is so important. And I asked them to tell me when you walked in here, how did you feel?

55:06Tori Dunlap:And how do you feel now? And what they all say is I walked in feeling really nervous or really intimidated. And I actually now feel like I can do this. And like, that is the feeling I want for every single woman on this planet. And you're exactly right. It feels so scary when you first get started. Everything feels so scary when you first start. But when you start making these decisions for yourself. You start growing your own confidence and you go, oh, I can't do this. And that was so scary two months ago, but I feel good about this. And like, that is the transformation that starts to happen, but it only happens when you start.

55:41Emma Grede:When you do. You only get the thing if you do the thing. And I think what people don't understand is the connectedness, how everything starts making sense. You then read something and you're like, oh, I have a better appreciation of that. I'm going to use this piece of information and connect it over here. And perhaps I'm going to do something that is slightly more risky. But if you don't start,

56:01Tori Dunlap:where are you going? And at the beginning, I was telling you about, you know, all these messages we get from women now where they're telling me a financial goal, but then they're telling me how they feel. And when you are financially okay, you get to exercise your self-worth in every single situation. But when you're in a situation that doesn't respect you, you're in a relationship, you're in an apartment that doesn't feel safe, you're in a job that doesn't feel safe. I have been there. I have been in a job that was abusive, that was misogynistic. I was in a workplace where I did not enjoy coming to work, but I couldn't leave because I didn't have enough money.

56:39Tori Dunlap:We see women in domestically abusive relationships. The number one reason they can't leave his money. 99 % of abusive relationships have some sort of financial abuse tied to them. On the flip side, I get to say yes all of the time. When somebody invites me on a trip, I don't go, oh shoot, I don't know if I can afford it. I go, yeah, absolutely. And I'll pay for half of it or I'll buy you dinner or whatever. Like I get to do things for my parents now that I never dreamt I'd get to do. I get to be the most generous version of myself. And like, there's this great quote that like money doesn't change you.

57:13Tori Dunlap:It just shows you who you are. And this is why it's absolutely imperative for women, especially at this moment, to get rich. Because I want money in the hands of the most generous, kind, self-aware, socially aware group of people on the planet.

57:28Emma Grede:And that is women. 100 % because women are proven to do different things with their money. When women actually get a ton of money, they're more philanthropic. They are way more generous. They look after their community. They look after their families. I mean, it's extremely, I was reading something amazing this morning or yesterday, whenever it was. It was a list of the wealthiest families in the world and what percentage of their wealth they were giving away. In each of the six richest families in this country, it was a matriarch, a woman that was actually leading the philanthropic giving. It's like, make no mistake.

58:04Emma Grede:Like when people get rich, it's the woman that is actually figuring out how do we make this more fair, more equitable, give to where money is needed. It's pretty extraordinary.

58:13Tori Dunlap:And most women listening, you know, you don't, I'm not talking like you don't need Jeff Bezos money, right? I am just saying. Nobody does. Nobody, thank you, Emma, nobody does. I'm just saying you need enough money where you get to say yes when you want to say yes and know when you want to say no. Yeah. That just means that you have a financially stable life where you get to be, again, the biggest, baddest, best version of yourself. Totally.

58:36Emma Grede:And that is more in reach than you might think. So before we move on from investing, I want to make sure that people have really got it. Yes. Like give me just the top three things that somebody who feels pretty secure in how, you know, they've got their 401k in check. What is the, what are the next things that they should do to make sure that they are dipping their toe into investing in the most responsible way, that it's at a risk level that they can tolerate? Like, where do you go?

59:03Tori Dunlap:Yeah. if you have retirement accounts that are offered to you through work, that is the best place to start. Take it. Take it. Because again, tax advantage money, but also if you are at a company that will match part of that income, like we do at Her First Under K, I believe you do as well. So there's something so cool about being able to say, okay, 4 % match. That means if you contribute 4 % of your salary, your employer is going to match you at 4%. So you just contributed 8%, but only did half the work. That is free money. There's nowhere that's free money anymore. Like That's incredible. So take your 401k, do everything you can to max it out if you can, but at least get up to that match because it's free money.

59:38Tori Dunlap:The second thing we want to think about doing is if you don't have a 401k or if you're investing or saving more than that 401k, invest in what's called a Roth IRA. This is an individual retirement account that almost anybody can open. And that way you can continue investing for things like retirement, which is the biggest expense of your life in a way that's going to be able to build that investment. If you want even more flexibility, a brokerage account is going to be your friend because there's no restrictions. There's no, well, you can only contribute this much or, you know, the tax reasons around it.

1:00:10Tori Dunlap:You can contribute millions of dollars if you have it hypothetically. Like that is the most flexible option. And that's kind of your order of operations in terms of where to go. But the thing I do in all of my accounts is I buy the same investments every place I'm at. I'm investing in 401k, IRA, brokerage account does not matter. For me, it's index funds. That's what I teach in stock market school as well, because those are diversified investments. Rather than trying to cherry pick stocks, which no one can do, you are helping make sure you're mitigating your risk by saying, okay, rather than just in putting all my eggs in one basket, I'm putting them in hundreds, if not thousands of baskets.

1:00:44Emma Grede:But I love that because I feel, again, it is so personal, but I feel like a great way to think about this is to connect it to your vision. Like what are the things that you want? What are the things that you hope for? What are you trying to achieve and work backwards from that. Because often it's like, all right, like I'm going to feel fine doing 10%, but it's actually not getting you to where you want to go. So you're going to have to up it. So it's really having that honest conversation with yourself. And once you've unpacked that money narrative, then you've got to like force yourself into your future self and go, what am I trying to optimize for?

1:01:15Tori Dunlap:Yeah, you're exactly right. It's understanding why you're doing this. Why are you getting out of debt? Why are you investing? Like I'm investing for like 65 year old me who's going to be like drinking wine and adopting dogs on a villa in Italy. and is flirting with her much younger Pilates instructor named Luca. Like these are all the things I'm doing. All the things. Like that 65-year-old me's retirement plan. And I can't do that unless I put in work now. I want to ask you quickly about relationships and money.

1:01:39Emma Grede:Because this is always like such a tricky thing. Everybody wants to talk to me about this. I love it. It's so fun. Well, it's an interesting one, right? Because I feel like women are in such an amazing position right now. We're making more money than men now. Making more money at last. So what do you do if your boyfriend's broke?

1:01:55Tori Dunlap:The first thing I'll tell you, Emma. Is that I have made more money than any man I've ever been on a date with. And it's the coolest fucking thing in the entire world.

1:02:03Emma Grede:Wow. It's also really cool when you go out of a richer one. You know that. No, totally. No, I have been in a happy relationship. Wait a minute. Every single guy you've ever been out with, you made more money than? Wow.

1:02:15Tori Dunlap:Yeah, one Googled me in front of me, which was very weird. Oh. Yeah. Did you stay with him? Absolutely not. No, that was a one and done date. Oh, that was one and done. Not in front of me. Not in front of me. Do that at all, my man. After? Before? Crazy. He would come in with the information. Yeah. He would never have done that. Crazy. Wow. No, I've been with my now partner for four years and we make very different money. And I joke, I keep his privacy, but he's a civilian. He doesn't like, doesn't have social media. No, no, no, absolutely not. And we had to have a lot of conversations and still do.

1:02:47Tori Dunlap:And there's been so many people now talking, I think more about this because women are making more money a lot than their male partners. The first red flag is if your man or your partner is threatened by that, we're out. We're out. If they feel uncomfortable and they're expressing that to you, that is workable because my partner is a very good feminist. I wouldn't be dating him if he wasn't. But I remember we were at like a teriyaki restaurant. Okay. And I, it was like, I don't know,$25 dinner and I bought it. Never. And he came to me and he was like, I really want to feel like an equal partner to you.

1:03:26Tori Dunlap:And I sometimes feel like I can't. And I was like, I'm not looking for equal. I'm looking for equitable. And at this time we weren't living together. And I was like, let's say we moved in together. I make a vastly different amount of money than you do. I would not expect you to split that with me 50-50 because that just doesn't make sense. But this is where you have to have conversations because the number one cause of marital stress is money. The number one cause of divorce is money. And it's because we're not talking about it. We're not speaking to it. And this is like perfect full circle in this interview, but like we have to talk about money, especially with the people in our life that we're hoping to share our lives with.

1:04:04Tori Dunlap:You have to be open about your financial trauma, about the way you view money, and also just what you expect out of your partner. Some people I think are like, yeah, I want my partner to pay for everything. And other people say, no, I want this to be more equitable. but you have to figure out what that looks like for you.

1:04:21Emma Grede:It's a really important conversation to have actually, because there's so many women that, you know, I feel like for every... I don't know. For every single woman that I know, there's like zero negative men. Literally. Literally. Could have said that the other way around. It's like maybe for every 10 single guys, I don't know. There's just like, there's just like a hundred million women. Like, I don't even know what to say. It's crazy. But by the same token, I don't know that many women who are openly happy to date down in income. Like I don't. I'm one of them. No. And I think it's really interesting that you would say that and be honest about it because the reality is that you probably like anything in life, don't get everything, right?

1:05:07Emma Grede:You don't get the guy who actually is a feminist, who feels very comfortable with his ego in a woman. I've met rich guys. Some of them are really pleasant and some of them are really not fun to be around. Or interesting, or, you know, a myriad of other things that you're looking for in a relationship.

1:05:25Tori Dunlap:And again, somebody listening might be, no, I really need a financially equal partner. For me, it was much more important to have a values-based relationship. He was still contributing and maxing out his Roth IRA. Like, and that sounds like, what should that matter? That told me so much more than the money that told me I value saving. I think about the future. I am diligent in the way I've set up systems for my money. Like that told me a lot, right? Totally. So you might not have a lot of money, but are you being very smart and practical with it? Absolutely. And I also think that this is, you know, the classic, like money again, as a tool, it also for me is not the end all be all.

1:06:02Tori Dunlap:I was so much more focused on like, who are you as a person? If I build a life with you, like, can we think about money and think about hard conversations and come out of those hard conversations still buddies? Yeah. Great.

1:06:16Emma Grede:Great. What do you think about couples in terms of like how combining finances. Do you think that you should combine or you should keep it separate? Should never completely combine your finances.

1:06:26Tori Dunlap:This is one of my most controversial money opinions, Emma. Let's go. Because you always need some of your own money. Unfortunately, there are so many women in our emails every single week and I could show you. I could scroll for days. You don't need to show me because there's just so many friends. They're probably in your DMs too.

1:06:45Emma Grede:No, but it's also just like I have so many friends who get to a certain age and maybe want to leave their significant other and can't. Or their significant other leaves them. And they're fucked.

1:06:56Tori Dunlap:Yeah, they're quite literally fucked. Yeah. So we need some of our own money for all of the reasons I just outlined, but also like the fun stuff of like, I want to be able to like go and spend X amount of money without consulting my partner first. So that's the first conversation is like, what amount of money do we both feel like we can spend without having to have like a family conference about it? That might be 300 bucks. That might be, I don't know, a thousand might be more than that. I don't know. but that number is unique per couple, right? So that is the money that you know, yep, I can go spend it on my hobby and not have to have a conference call about it.

1:07:26Tori Dunlap:But I think beyond that, it at the very minimum looks like six months of living expenses or even three months of living expenses. If that's the only thing you have, that is better than nothing in terms of separate. I think the most ideal is having your separate accounts. So your savings and your investments, your savings and your investments, and then a joint account for shared expenses. So your rent, your groceries, that sort of thing. That's like a really good hybrid. Yes. While also still protecting the autonomy of both people's financial futures.

1:07:56Emma Grede:So what do you feel like when you see the kind of rise of trad wives and, you know, women that are really choosing not to, you know, work outside the home?

1:08:08Tori Dunlap:So my mom is a non-compensated working mom. She's a stay-at-home mom. And I am so thankful for that because my mom was my chauffeur for t-ball practice and for piano lessons and also was there always to, you know, support me in that. But they have a very equitable relationship. Like my dad brings home the bacon. My mom does all of the work to fry that bacon. Like, and they have worked that out together. My mom has a spousal IRA, which means that my dad is contributing to her retirement account. Like one of my most controversial videos ever, as I said, if you're a stay-at-home mom, your husband should be paying you a salary.

1:08:48Tori Dunlap:And salary is a word I used to purposely be a little spicy, but like you need to have some sort of income coming in from the compensated partner. Spousal IRAs exist for that kind of reason. The issue I have with Tradwives is that they are giving you a version of life that feels very idyllic. I'm going to waltz through my wildflowers and I'm going to milk my cows and I'm going to bring the milk in and I'm going to make, I don't know, all of these things from scratch. And like the reason it feels so idyllic is we're all really burned out as women. We're all really tired. And I don't think we have a lot of people that like take care of us because even though I'm a good independent feminist, like I like being taken care of sometimes.

1:09:33Tori Dunlap:Of course. So I see the temptation of that. But the interesting thing about trad wives becoming so popular is that you are telling me, I just know what's going to come out of your mouth right now, but you are telling me that this idyllic lifestyle, you're performing this for me on an Instagram account that makes money. Yeah. You are selling pretty high production. You're selling your milk and you're selling your whatever. Yeah. You're a business. You are now the breadwinner of your house. And yet you're telling me and selling me on the idea that, oh, money's not my job. It's just, I don't know.

1:10:15Tori Dunlap:I don't worry about money. That's somebody else's job. You are making money. You are an entrepreneur and a damn good one because you're making millions of dollars selling this lifestyle.

1:10:25Emma Grede:I've been trying to get them on. Any trad wife that wants to come and chat to me, I'm here. I'm like, let's go. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because they are business women and they're making a ton of money. And I'm like, I'm here, I'm here for it. I'm all for it, but it's, uh, you're selling it.

1:10:41Tori Dunlap:I'm not for selling and I'm not, no, you're not either selling a lifestyle that is like so damaging to women. And also we give away our power so often as women, because we don't know any better. I just woke up in my twenties and realized all of the ways I was giving away my power and all of the ways that I was allowing usually men in my life to speak down to me or make me feel small. And every moment of my life that happened where that happened and I allowed that behavior, I just felt it was awful. So if you are giving away your financial power, you're giving away your agency, your autonomy, you are giving away so much that might feel right now like freedom.

1:11:24Tori Dunlap:And the more probably practical thing that I see, because I don't think any of the listeners might be, I don't know, maybe you're listening, but I think the thing I've been stewing on lately, I have this theory that because there's so much emotional labor that women have to do in a traditional heteronormative relationship, you have to think about the t-ball practice and the cooking and the cleaning and somebody needs this gift. And there's so much emotional labor that women are doing that we're so quick to give away the finances because we're like - One less thing to do. One less thing to do. And men are better.

1:12:00Tori Dunlap:Men can do it. Men can handle it. Well, it comes more naturally to a lot of men, right? Because they've been socially conditioned. Because they've been doing it. Yeah. And they were taught about money in a way that women were. And it's so understandable. We're so exhausted. We're so tired. It's like, cool, we can give that away.

1:12:17Emma Grede:But what are you really giving away? But what are you giving away? Ain't that just a thing? I mean, I am fascinated by you because you've taken this, obviously, what started in your upbringing, right? And you have turned it in to a real business. And I want to switch gears a bit because I think it's pretty fascinating for those people that perhaps don't listen to your podcast or subscribe to your newsletter or haven't taken one of your courses or the myriad of kind of empire shit that you're doing right now. Can you just give a little overview of what your business looks like today? Yeah.

1:12:49Tori Dunlap:So we have multiple sources of income at Her First 100K and those range from the podcast ads to my book sales, but also to our programs where we teach women how to be better with money. We also have 5 million people in our social audiences. So that looks like, you know, classic influencer deals or affiliate partnerships, speaking. That's my favorite thing to do. My theater degree. Like I feel so comfortable in front of like 5 ,000 people. Like that's my favorite thing to do. It's so good. And so that business now has grown to multi-millions, but what I'm really, really proud of is the culture we've created at our team.

1:13:32Tori Dunlap:Yeah.

1:13:32Emma Grede:And the culture that you're like creating, I think for a wider audience is so uplifting and so positive and it's having such impact.

1:13:40Tori Dunlap:I hope so. I think I know so. I think so. One of the things that we were really intentional doing, and I have to shout out my COO, Karina Patel. She's absolutely incredible and has helped me think about this so much, especially she's really good. Like to continue the theater metaphor, like if I'm on stage, she's the stage manager in the back, making sure everything's running. And we were really intentional about creating a company that didn't exist when we were first starting our careers. We both worked in pretty, yeah, masculine environments that ended up being pretty toxic. And we were both like, we want to treat our people the way we wish we were treated.

1:14:14Tori Dunlap:So we offer unlimited PTO. We shut down the entire company for a week, every quarter where everybody knows like we're offline. We are out of office message is like, Hey, we'll get back to you. Nothing's urgent. Like we're not curing cancer. We're not putting out fires. This is really important work, but like we will get back to you next Monday. We do paid menstrual leave at our company because menstruation is huge, which we do. It's, it's so important because, uh, everybody who works on our team right now is women. And like, that's a serious thing. No men right now. No men, no men right now. Wow.

1:14:52Yeah.

1:14:52Tori Dunlap:Family leave. We are so committed to making sure that we are creating the kind of company that, yeah, I wished I worked at because if I'm going to try to grow a business and to do all of these really cool things, like that's my favorite part is to be able to actually start changing the way we think about work and the way we take care of people. And we're, you know, a pretty small organization.

1:15:18Emma Grede:How many of you are there?

1:15:19Tori Dunlap:There are seven full-time W2s, 17 total. So I think about 10 contractors. And are you profitable?

1:15:26Emma Grede:Yeah. Oh yeah.

1:15:27Tori Dunlap:We've always been profitable. I always thought what I like to, you know, really?

1:15:31Emma Grede:$40. Right from the beginning. 2016, 40 bucks.

1:15:34Tori Dunlap:Nice, I'll take it. And I'll tell you how much we made. We made 7 million in revenue last year. Good for you, darling.

1:15:41Emma Grede:I mean, that's really impressive. Never had outside investment.

1:15:43Tori Dunlap:Like, I am really proud of it. Now, it's not a Skims. It's not a good American.

1:15:47Emma Grede:Not everything has to be. Not everything has to be. But this is one of the common misconceptions, I think, that are out there. Because at the end of the day, you set out with a mission, right? you were like, I actually have this huge point of view. I want to impact a ton of women. I want to create a working environment that for 15, 20 people is going to be really different from everything that I've experienced. And that's what you're doing and you're making money from it. So I just, I feel like it's really important because again, we live in a moment in the culture where it's like, everything's a unicorn.

1:16:18Emma Grede:It's like, no, it's not. If you're getting paid and you're looking after your future and you've got a whole bunch of women whose futures you're also looking after. Like that to me is as successful as it can possibly get. The idea that everything needs to be massive is crazy. And it's also just like not the truth. And quite frankly, I don't want your job. No, I don't know that I want my job right now.

1:16:40Tori Dunlap:I'm exhausted. Yeah. Like I, I so admire that and I, I, I don't want it. I am great where we're at. How nice that you know that, right?

1:16:49Emma Grede:It's like, I don't want it. I built a company and this is the company that I want to run.

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1:19:36Emma Grede:so before we wrap a quick reminder that start with yourself is available for pre-order and tickets for the live shows are available now starting april 15th we're coming to new york los angeles san francisco chicago dc boston atlanta and london visit emagreed.com for tickets and full tour details i cannot wait How has running this company changed the way you see your sale? Oh, it's changed everything.

1:20:04Tori Dunlap:But it's also confirmed a lot for me. I am never the person that's going to walk into an interview and go, oh my God, I can't believe this happened to me. I'm shocked. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that I... Yeah. I dreamt this. I knew I could do this. like I was well aware that I had big dreams and big goals and that I could accomplish them. And like, this is like cue the Barbie movie where she like gets the award and she's like, I deserve this. And I know like, but it's true. And it would be very, you know, inauthentic to come in here and play that role.

1:20:39Emma Grede:So I - Because that was always your mindset. Like you just, you knew you were going to do something and make a ton of money.

1:20:46Tori Dunlap:Honestly, not even make a ton of money, but like I wanted to, I wanted to do big things. I wanted to do that. And I knew I was capable of that. Because the thing I always tell, if I'm walking into a new therapist's office, I always tell them, we're going to work on a lot. And there's a lot of things that I'm not good at or the things I'm working on. But self-worth is not one of them. I know I'm worthy of opportunity, of love, of belonging, of money. But I think what's changed me with running this business is when you first start and your first fire comes and you put it out, you go, how do I prevent more fires?

1:21:29Tori Dunlap:But there's some fires that are not preventable. So a couple of years ago, I realized I got really burned out. I got really burned out. I launched my book, became a New York Times best seller, all of that business was like, we were having some stuff internally that we had to figure out just like restructuring the business. Like I was tired and I was not well. And I kept thinking, maybe I'm not a good boss or not a good entrepreneur if we have these fires all the time. And I realized, oh, there's some fires that you can't anticipate, or there's some things that are not going to be inside of your control.

1:22:00Tori Dunlap:So the goal is not, how do I create a fireproof business? The goal is, how do I make sure I have fire extinguishers law in hand. How do I get better at firefighting? Exactly. How do I get better at understanding that there's going to be stuff that happens? How do we make good decisions during that time? And I think that was a huge shift for me is not how do I prevent all fires, but instead, how do I be prepped when they inevitably come?

1:22:25Emma Grede:100%. What type of leader are you? Tell me more. What do you mean? Like in terms of, because I get the sense of like coming to work for you. You've created this environment that is fair and equitable where people are incentivized not to like burn themselves out. That's why you're giving them all of these opportunities. Does that connect to the type of leader that you are in your team? Does that mean that you have like a softer, more empathetic leadership style? Like I'm just interested how you running a profitable business and having these very clear ideas about the type of business that you want to run, like how those two things connect.

1:23:01Tori Dunlap:One thing I'm really proud of, and I've gotten feedback from my team about this, is that I'm always the first person to ask, what do you need from me? Like, how can I help you today do your job better? And also, I always want to say, I'm not the perfect leader. Like, I'm always learning. I'm growing. I've made a million mistakes. I'll continue to make them. But I think I'm very proud of that, is I'm always going to walk into a room and be like, what do you need from me? How can I help you? My partner actually makes fun of me, because I'll be at events and stuff. Like, somebody's invited me to an event.

1:23:26Tori Dunlap:I'm like, Like, what do you need? It'll happen tonight. You invited me and our mastermind podcast group tonight for dinner. And now that I've said it, you'll see it. But I will literally come to you. I'm like, what do you need? Do you need me to bring out drinks? Do you need me to bring out drinks? And that's okay. I need you to have a good time tonight. Yeah, but like I'm an Enneagram 2. Like I'm a helper. Like I just love that. You're a 2? I'm a 2. Textbook 2.

1:23:50Emma Grede:And I'm also a Cancer. Oh, okay. So we're getting the emotional. My daughter's a Cancer. So I know that sign inside. A nine-year-old Cancer. Absolutely.

1:23:57Tori Dunlap:And I'm also not afraid to cry in front of my team. Like I've cried in front of my team quite a bit. Like when I've been really excited, like I'll walk out of here and cry. But also like when things are not great, like candidly, when Trump got elected, we literally, for the second time, we sat on a call the next day. I gave everybody the day off because none of us were well. We were not good. And we, it was so actually cathartic to be in a group of women that was just like, okay, all right.

1:24:23Emma Grede:So what are we going to do about it? You sound like an extremely intuitive leader because I think somebody that understands the needs of their team without everybody having to be like, this is what we need. And you anticipate those needs. Yeah. That's like a real intuitive leader. You're leading from your, from something that's happening on the inside.

1:24:41Tori Dunlap:I have, I think all of us, every single woman has like our best gift is our intuition. I have a great intuition. I can meet somebody and in two seconds go, yep. Yeah. And I think patriarchy, their best work has been disconnecting us from our own intuition, gaslighting us, making us feel like we're crazy, making us feel like, oh, but you need, you need concrete data. There's been a million times where somebody, if somebody asked me why intuition, I think, uh, there was this great quote that intuition is knowing without explaining how, you know, and like, you can ask me why. And I go, I don't know.

1:25:17Tori Dunlap:And that doesn't make me a bad reader. It's just like, I can tell you this isn't working.

1:25:22Emma Grede:No, it makes you a great leader if you listen to it. The only times I feel like I've had poor leadership decisions is when I've tuned out.

1:25:29Tori Dunlap:Literally. I'm like, fuck, why didn't I just, like, I knew that. The biggest mistakes I've made, I could look back and go, oh, had the gut impulse, didn't listen to it.

1:25:36Emma Grede:Yeah, you were out of alignment. I want to talk to you a little bit about your legacy because you're such a young woman. I love you just brought out the L word. I'm like, oh. Well, you know what, I talk about it from a legacy point of view because you are building and you're clearly very strategic and you're very thoughtful. and you're also taking care of like a big group of people, right? It's like you've got a generation of women that are following you and looking up to you and taking your courses. And so there's an element of responsibility that comes with that. I wonder what is important for you to protect as you grow this business?

1:26:10Emma Grede:My peace. I just, I think... I love that you say something for you, by the way.

1:26:14Tori Dunlap:No, but it's like, I cannot serve other people if I'm not great. It's just like, I can't be everything I want to be and do all the things I want to do if I am not protecting what I need to protect for me. And, you know, part of that is like, my relationship is private. That's really important to me and really important to my partner. You know, people know I'm in a relationship, but like, we don't, people don't know his name. They don't know where he works. Like, that's really important to me. That's a way I've protected my peace. Also just like, the internet's a vicious place. And yes, we have, you know, five, six million women who are so dialed in and so supportive.

1:26:52Tori Dunlap:And my work also pisses a lot of people off. Yeah, no doubt. And so protecting my peace, understanding of like what feedback is actually feedback that is worth listening to, what is just like not helpful and not from people that I actually respect. Are you getting better at that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, again, all of the cliches are true. The like, if you wouldn't accept, what is it, praise from somebody, you don't accept feedback from them. Or like if they're not going where you want to go, Like it's just not worth it.

1:27:19Emma Grede:They're either in the arena or they're not. Exactly, Brene Brown. When I saw, well, I mean, it's not her word. She's paraphrasing. I think it's FDR. FDR, exactly. But I literally was like, you are not in the arena. Like that's how I feel all the time. That's okay. What do you hope beyond the kind of core financial education? What do you hope that women take out of your work?

1:27:40Tori Dunlap:None of my work is about money. Like yeah, financial feminists, personal finance women. This is not about money. this is about freedom. This is about helping women be the best, baddest, fullest version of themselves. So yeah, my vessel or my channel is money. Absolutely. But this actually has nothing to do with a paycheck has nothing to do with how much money you have in the bank. It has nothing to do with the numbers. It has everything to do with the way women show up differently when they or financially well. And we've already made such an impact on this, but I've already seen it change in the 10 years I've been doing this work where personal finance was this like niche thing.

1:28:26Tori Dunlap:Now you look at any like media site for women, there's a personal finance section. There did not used to be a personal finance section. You go to like wellness and you see, you know, physical, mental health, whatever. And you see money now because you want to become a Pilates princess. Great. you need money. You want to donate to a cause you believe in? Great. You need money. You want to walk out and protest? You need money to be able to do that. Like if you want to be well,

1:28:53Emma Grede:you need to have money. Do you think the narrative is shifting? Because again, I feel for, for a lot of women, especially women whose work is kind of based around impact or purpose, making a difference. They've had a hard time uncoupling the idea that you can both be really like, you know, focused on doing super meaningful work and yet at the same time want to be remunerated well for it that you can, you know, and I even talk about this in my book, Start With Yourself. But, you know, I always say, you know, it's like you can care about money a lot and care about the work you do and the two things don't have to be, you know, mutually exclusive.

1:29:36Emma Grede:Do you think that that is shifting? Absolutely.

1:29:38Tori Dunlap:The fact that I can come online even and say, I want to be rich and I want women to be rich, that fell 10 years ago later, crazy.

1:29:48Emma Grede:We need women to be rich.

1:29:49Tori Dunlap:We need women to be rich. Like we have an obligation at this point. Rich and powerful. Powerful, yeah. And again, I'm not interested in accumulating wealth to the point of, you know, exploiting somebody or to the point of, you know, gatekeeping. I'm just talking like, again, enough money to be able to have the decisions that you make. But that is the paradox that I think so many women feel is like, I either do mission-driven work or I make a lot of money. And those two things, you know, they are not mutually exclusive. Like you can do both. And it might mean going to a corporate job that you don't really like, that makes you a lot of money.

1:30:24Tori Dunlap:And then being able to do really cool things with that money. it might be that. Or it might mean, okay, the traditional system isn't working for me anymore. So what is the business that I can start that allows me to make an impact, but also allows me to get rich? Totally.

1:30:39Emma Grede:Both of those things can be true. Totally. No, I couldn't agree with you more. When your career, like when you think about in hindsight, what is it that you would quite like people to understand, like what's behind what you're building? I think that, again, it is easy

1:30:57Tori Dunlap:to put me in a box to be like, oh, she's a financial expert who like cares about the way her investments perform. Like, I don't give a shit. Like, yeah, this isn't about money. This is about so much bigger than that. And I also love thinking about the choices women get to make when they have more money. And that's really what drives me is thinking about how do we build a business where both we can support the women inside of it, but also so that we can continue doing the work that we do for a long time. And the goal eventually is that like, I'm out of a job. Like that would be ideal, right? Like not just because I want to retire someday, but truly because literally like there's no, there's no work to be done.

1:31:39Tori Dunlap:We're a long way from that. And so, yeah, I also, my job is, you know, not coal mining. So it's hard to come on here and be like, my job's really difficult, but there are times where we just don't treat women very well. And the irony is that We ask women To dream their big dreams And go for it Because we like seeing women In positions of power And do big things And then the moment That woman makes a mistake And I'm talking, you know Not anything crazy It's a little mistake Tiny little thing We are so quick to go I never liked her Or Like

1:32:20Emma Grede:And it's always so personal It's so personal It's not like she was really bad at her job but it was like, she was a bitch. Right. And I never trusted her. Right.

1:32:28Tori Dunlap:And that is what I'm hoping to actually change is like, if you want me to show up big, I will show up big. And also I'll be in the arena. Doesn't mean I'm not going to slip and fall. I'm going to slip and fall. I've done it already. I'm going to do it again. But you can't ask me to be, you know, a leader, an innovator if you're not going to also hold space and give me a little grace and give every single woman grace. And I'm a white woman. Like give trans women grace, give women of color grace. Like you can't ask us to be the people moving causes forward. And yet the same people that take the fall.

1:33:05Tori Dunlap:Like I think about that all the time is like, when we consider just the, the hate that often gets piled on women, I often think, okay, let's say her business didn't exist. Let's say you like got what you wanted, is that a net positive for the world? The answer's no. So again, is my job hard? No. But I think that the internet, again, is a mean place and we women cannot contribute to that. We cannot be the reason that a woman doesn't want to do something big because she's so scared of what another woman's going to think about her or say about her, not even behind her back to her face. Like we can't have a culture that continues to pit women against each other.

1:33:52Tori Dunlap:It just does not work. And also a culture that does not allow women the same grace. You were talking about, you know, the male entrepreneurs who get 17 chances. We, it just, that, that can't continue in the same way that we've been thinking about it.

1:34:06Emma Grede:I couldn't agree with you more. I really couldn't. Give me the one big goal that you have for yourself or for the business. It's a great question. I think my big goal, I mean, it's going to sound so general, but continue impacting more

1:34:21Tori Dunlap:women. Like this, this, this work is not done. We're far from over. Like I want financial feminist, both the book and the podcast to be in the hands of every single woman who needs it. And I think every single woman does. So that's the goal.

1:34:34Emma Grede:You think you'll be doing this when

1:34:35Tori Dunlap:you're 50? I think a version of it. Yeah. Yeah. And also I hope I'm not needed. I will be the way we're going, but like, I hope I'm not. You'll do it if you're needed. Yeah. And like, I could retire right now. Like I am financially well enough. I could retire at 31. I could retire at 28. My work's not done. So I'm not retiring anytime soon.

1:34:57Emma Grede:So that right there. All right. I'm going to take you to rapid fire. Great. All right, my darling, tell me a purchase that you never feel guilty about. Food out. I love restaurants. It's my favorite thing. Me too. I just like, I'm such a foodie. It's ridiculous. I am. What is one thing that you are surprisingly bad at? Oh, I can't do a forward roll. We're the same person. I can't do a forward roll. Oh, really? Like gymnastics? Or a cartwheel. No, no, no. No, no.

1:35:27Tori Dunlap:And I was like a dancer. Like I majored in a thing. No, I can't do it. I don't like being upside down. I literally, I'm like shaking talking about it. I don't like it. Oh, really? You know, I had my period

1:35:35Emma Grede:like every PE lesson. No, that's smart.

1:35:37Tori Dunlap:No, there was a gymnastics week at school and every time, I know that's not rapid fire anymore, but every week I was like, I have, like, what am I doing? Facts, facts. PTSD, awful. It's totally fine.

1:35:46Emma Grede:Texting or voice notes for you? Oh, I'm a voice, I'm a phone call person. First, we're going to be best friends. Great. I don't even listen to voice notes when people send this to me. I'll listen to them. I think it's rude.

1:35:57Tori Dunlap:I don't. No, but my team, my team now knows if they're getting a phone call, like nothing's on fire. It's just Tori wants to yap. Yeah, if you phone call anyone

1:36:05Emma Grede:under the age of like 25, they're like, what's wrong? I'm like, like, I just want to. It's like part of our onboarding now.

1:36:10Tori Dunlap:It's literally like, Tori calls you, everything's probably fine. Oh, we should make it part of my own boarding.

1:36:15Emma Grede:People think they're going to get fired. I'm not just on a chat. No, no, no. Just on a chat. What is a book that changed your life?

1:36:21Tori Dunlap:Untamed by Glennon Doyle.

1:36:23Emma Grede:It's a good one.

1:36:24Tori Dunlap:She changed my life. She did? Yeah, I was lucky enough to be on her show last year. She and Amanda. Yeah. Major. I think it must read for every single woman. Thank you for that. All right.

1:36:35Emma Grede:I want to know the first thing you do in the morning.

1:36:38Tori Dunlap:Honestly, I don't sleep with my phone in my room, but I sleep with it in the bathroom. So I go to the bathroom and then I grab it and then I sit in front of my red light. And I know it's not good. I know you're not supposed to look at your phone, but my red light is like 12 minutes and it can't go longer than that. So that's my like 12 minutes of doing my phone. And then I get to move on with my day. I mean, listen. I have a naked morning routine. You've been, I love it.

1:36:58Emma Grede:I've got a full picture now. I've got it. I know exactly how I'm going to think about you. Every listener's got a full picture. Great. All right.

1:37:05Tori Dunlap:The last thing you do at night. Journal. You do? Yep. But I minimum it's three things. If I want to write more than that, I can. But I've been doing this for years. Three things I'm grateful for. And then actually it's only two. It's three things I'm grateful for. And then at least three affirmations. And if it's more than that, great. If I got to get some stuff out. But those are the two things I do.

1:37:23Emma Grede:I love that. Okay. And final question to you. What is something that you aspire to? I aspire to create and help create a world

1:37:33Tori Dunlap:where women feel like they can unapologetically pursue wealth, unapologetically want to be rich and where they know that they are worthy of every opportunity.

1:37:47Emma Grede:What a beautiful aspiration. I love it. Thank you, my love. Thank you for having me.

1:37:57Emma Grede:If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. You'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Executive producer, Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese-Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Lagrasso. Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts. Angela Peluso is our booker original music by charles black video production by evan cox kurt courtney andrew steel and carlos delgado social media by olivia homan katherine bale special thanks to britney smith sydney ford my teams at the lead company and wme maura curran josephina francis hillary schuff eric donnelly kate hutchinson rose tim meekle sean cherry and lauren vieira if you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed.

1:38:59Emma Grede:Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-R-E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

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