Why a Quick Pause Makes People Actually Listen

0:00Do you know how hard it is to write one book? Imagine if we had somebody here who wrote two books or three. Well, this person has written five books, so you know they are a deep thinker, but it goes deeper. They are a thinker's 50 radar thought leader, a top 50 leadership management expert, and a multiple-time best-selling author. I am talking about my friend Heather Younger. In this episode, we talk about so many different things. We don't just talk about what it takes to be a great leader and, dare I say, an unshakable leader. We also talk about the elements of charisma and how it looks differently for different people and how you can cultivate that and communicate in a very powerful way.

0:40We talk about the power of the pause and how even though nothing's being said, so much is being done in that moment and what it takes to be a person who has the confidence to carry that moment of silence in order to effectuate such a powerful message. There's so many things that we covered in this podcast. It's one that I'm going to keep going over again and again and again because there are so many incredible gems that will make you a better speaker, better leader, and a better person. And today you are going to hear the incredible story of Heather Younger. And welcome to Big Swings Only. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever podcast.

1:24Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of Granola free at granola.ai slash Kwame. For your gift list, shop Quince.com for free shipping and 365-day returns. And make sure to tell them that Kwame with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com slash Kwame. You were talking about, before you and I got old, we were talking about the, just like different folks and what skills they bring to the stage that are natural, like that you can't teach.

2:01So I was just saying yours is like extremely strong charisma. and then the ability to make your um what you're gonna say appear to be 100 like off the cuff like full-on natural like conversation but we know i know because i know you're stuck that you that you've been like rehearsing that you practice that you've worked really really hard on it but the ability to have both the charisma and the ability to seem just very naturally kind of this is just a conversation um is the thing that i think that you bring uniquely to the stage Thank you. I appreciate that. And of course the suits are cool too.

2:35Hello. It takes a lot of reps to feel natural, to make it look that natural. And what's so cool about GLS is that unlike other keynotes, I usually don't get to see the other keynote speakers before me. And so it's like I was just sitting in. Honestly, I forgot. I was so in tune with what everybody was saying. I was taking pages and pages of notes for everybody's presentation. Me too. I completely forgot I was there to perform. I was like, man, I got to leave. Yeah, you're speaking next. I'm like, I'm going to be up there. There's 7 ,000 people out there. I know. But it's really cool to see everybody's superpower because everybody was so good and so different.

3:23So different. So different. So good. That's actually the thing that makes me most excited when I see that. I'm like, I just like to be able to see people in their zones. We all have heard in different zones. Yes. What would you say is your superpower on stage? Presence. So I would say presence. That would be like the ability to say, I'm going to actually go off here and I'm going to watch what's happening. And then I may not say the thing I intended to say. I might go a different direction because of the presence I have of like seeing, reading the room and the energy. and then I got have gotten really good now at doing pauses I wasn't so good at it that's that probably is not natural it's probably more rehearsed but it's all about like that presence if I'm listening to the audience with my eyes and my whole body then I can just say I'm actually good about I'm about to break away and I'll be like yeah actually you know I'm just I'm gonna tell you this and I just start just doing something like that might not be on script but because I think it's something that they need and I so I think that's what it's just a comfort level of being present and really listening deeply to them.

4:24Yes. It's like presence and not, it's like, you know, you're performing, but it's not performative. You're, you're actually there. So it's, you know, it's almost like you wrote a book on active listening and you take that same scale to the stage and listen at scale. I do. I actually do. I like that actually, that listening at scale is probably the best way to describe it. I, you know, we all have our thing, like you know you have the suit and you got and you're all like buff and everything right and like we all know how to like utilize those different things on stage right and for me i know i have a great smile so sometimes it'll be really intense and i'll just be like so i'll just stop and just like do a big smile and know that that's just loosening people up and so those are the things again but it still has to do with listening so it's that listening at scale you got it right yeah oh that's cool you know fun fun fact about the suits um because i get a lot of compliments on the suits.

5:19So the guy who builds the suits, his niche is building really great suits for athletic bodies. So he has like, we're, I'm in Columbus, Ohio. So we have a lot of people who matriculate into the NBA and NFL. And so he does the custom suits for these NFL players, NBA players. So it's a different type of design. And so, and I was just talking to Simone and my friend Claire about fitness too and how I was not always this fit. I got fit for the TED Talk and then I started to put on muscle just to see how the world would respond. And because the responses were so favorable, I started to do that more so for the social impact of it because it changes the way that people interact with you.

6:10It does. I lost quite a bit of weight. I was gaining a little bit back. I was probably too thin for my age. but I had lost a lot and I would, and I always, I tend, I tend to wear like tighter, tighter pants just to do, because I have long legs. So you, again, you work with what you got. So I would wear tighter pants with like a jacket and my pearls are my thing. And I do, I totally noticed how people treated me differently being like, like skinny fit kind of thing. You know, it's just, it's a different, it's just, it is different. So yeah, that's my interesting conversations. Yeah. I mean, but it's funny because with our business that, that matters.

6:43And tell me if this was tough for you to, I know I'm asking because it was tough for me to accept this because I wanted to just be the brain. It's like I went to school, got these degrees. Let me show you this data. Yes. Yes. So talk about how that was part of your brand. Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, yeah, the JD and the thinker that has all the books and all that, it was a struggle. And I remember I used to have an agent that I was with for like six years. I just left them in August. But I remember when she'd come to see me speak, she's like, yep, nope, you didn't drive this home more emotionally. Or, oh, you're doing too many of your models.

7:21I'm a huge framework model person. It's like every book has its own model. And I literally, every keynote had its own model, like a framework. I'm just big time on it. And I get to the point where someone said to me, oh, you're so charismatic. And you're so this and that. And you're teaching too much. Ooh. Ooh. And so I have just gotten better and better at saying, how do I not go to the thing I naturally want to do, which is the framework queen and wanting to like really help you understand the five steps or whatever it is. and instead can I give one or two things even of a framework I guess just with a framework but maybe it's just one or two things and can I instead uh frame it around storytelling that uh that actually one of the things I really love to do is like storytelling that takes you from like the beginning all the way through so that it feels like I keep I'm calling back to the story and then I'm bringing you in like this thing and so I've just gotten better at that but I mean I I tell you, it's a work in progress.

8:18And I've hired coach after I am a person who invests in myself. So I have hired speaker coach after speaker coach. And finally, I get to the point where you can't, there's nothing left to fix. Like, it doesn't mean that I'm perfect at it. It means that, Heather, there's only so much fixing that you're going to do. You just need to go do the thing and stop trying to fix it. You know what I mean? So that's when I said, OK, let me shift my focus on what I want to focus on. What do I want to improve that's not necessarily stagecraft? Or I thought I was trying to focus on stagecraft, but it wasn't stagecraft.

8:52It was the fact that I was teaching too much. So it was all those kind of things that I had to kind of adjust for. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing being the thought leader on stage because you can't get everything from just a pure transcript of the presentation. It's not just data transfer. And I know for me, I've had to intentionally pull back on the data that I was presenting and the learnings that I was giving in order to be more effective. And that was one of the most difficult things to do. Because people would say, so, you know, 60 minutes, is that okay? I know that's a little bit long.

9:34I was like, listen, I need days. Don't tell me 60 minutes, that's painfully short. Can I have more? I know that's been one thing that's been so annoying for some of the bureaus that I work with because they want to negotiate, use that for more money. And as a negotiation expert, I know. But for me, this is fun. It's playful. I'm like, you're taking away my playtime. You're giving me 60 minutes. Can I get 90? Okay, 75. They're like, are you giving away value for free? I was like, I need this for me. and actually you bring up a good point on this whole the topic is uh as we think about the play time so i didn't have enough play time when i was trying to teach so much when i was really wanting to get through a framework and so i'm my reviews are higher my spin is higher meaning like people who want to refer me is higher when i'm able to play more so it's that taking that time which you did a great job coming on on the GLS stage but taking the time to be like like here's the content really and just tell me and just doing things like that where they were just you would just engage with them and they would giggle and they would and you'd have felt like it was more of a that you were working with each person even though there were thousands of people and when you have that plate to now inserting purposely inserting the play time and taking out more teaching helps helps us do that so the connections higher and then all the results are better anyway so yeah Yeah, you're so right.

10:58Let's talk about pausing because that's a it's such an interesting element of communication because nothing is happening. And at the same time, so much is happening. And so when for you injecting the pauses, first of all, what made it so tough? But then let's get really descriptive with the impact that's had. Well, Simone kind of pegged it before you got on. He's like, oh, my gosh, you have this energy. I want to just record this energy because you have such natural energy about whatever you're talking about. And that is exactly why the pauses are important to me because I can be a little much.

11:33So I have, when I feel that, like that intensity or that, like a lot of passion coming through, I have to just be like, and let me, let me say that one more time.

11:46I have to really, I have to make myself do it because I will get just like, you know, really passionate about the thing. And I don't want them to miss the message or I don't want to overdo it or bury the message because of the excitement or the passion. So I want to make sure the pauses are there so that it's landing. So I've had to get really good at it, but it's because I do speak fast and I have a lot of energy. And so trying to just rein it, like be more intentional about how I release it when I do. And so that level of intentionality is something I feel like it comes with reps and it comes with thinking it through, like really designing it, really feeling like what the arcs are going to be.

12:34And it's not being that's it. I mean, you can call it partly performative because you you're planning the emotion. And at the same time, like I like I know you were doing because I watched it. I can see when somebody's got game. And so you already had all these prepared. Right. You prepare it and now allows you to have time to play. And I think that's the benefit of taking the time to know when your pauses are going to be and these different things are going to be and your stories are going to be. Because then you can be just even more free about playing and presence. Because whenever I, I don't know about you, anytime I'd be in the, if I'm in the middle of it, and I feel like it's all about me, I am so not present.

13:13If I care about what they care about, what I look like, they care about what I say, then I'm not present. And then I've just lost my superpower. Holy moly. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's so true. You know, as you were talking, there was something that came to mind for me because I was thinking about the intentional pauses. If somebody is like floundering and they lose their words and they, you know, their brain is offline and there's like a 14 second pause, that's painful. Nobody likes that. Right. That's not that. And I want to be clear. That's not what I'm talking about. But when somebody uses an intentional pause, I can't think of one time where I have seen somebody performing or been the person performing where I said that intentional pause was too long.

14:01Now, holding that pause takes a lot of discipline and it can feel excruciating as the person holding that space. But when it is done well, like being the recipient, I've never been like, oh, I wish they would just get to it. And it's so interesting how much work is done because it's almost like you're marinating your message in time. Whereas I hit that point, but I'm going to let you sit with that. And I'm so confident in this point that I know that you got it and you're going to get it in one or two more levels deep if I just hold this for a second. But again, it goes back to the ability to listen to the audience to be able to know how long that is going to be, because I'll hit that same point with different lengths of pauses depending on the audience, too.

14:47Yes, I'm still getting good at this. I'm not I'm not I'm not going to lie. I would say I'm not expert in the power of the pause yet. I'm definitely getting better. But when I know it's a ouch, like I know it's going to hurt a little bit, it's going to pinch a little bit, I know. So I make myself like, Heather, you got to stay there. You need it to pinch. Because my kind of brand is all about bringing like, so I call it the heat, the heart, and the hugs. It's kind of who I am. So I have to make sure the heat lands enough so when I bring the grace and that heart part of it, then when I receive them afterward, I know that it was like, ow, and you love me, Heather.

15:27It's like those two things together. Even with law, it was the same way. It was like, I'm more a mediator type. So I'm going to listen to both sides. I'm going to be always connecting the dots going, how can I bring these two to the center? So I'm just always kind of, everything I do is like, how do I bring them to the center? So even the culture work I do is all about, how do I bring the employees and the executive leaders together in like a meeting in the mind so that they understand what they're going through and they understand what they're going through and how do I bring it. And so that's my job in the role as this culture architect.

15:57So I just play this role wherever I go. Yes. It's a fun role. Let's talk more about the role because I want you to bring this to life because folks from the outside looking in, when they just read the titles and everything, I'm sure they come to their own thoughts. But I want you to speak to the heart of your message and the impact because the way that you do it is so unique. So let's talk about the work that you do and the people that you help.

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18:03Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show. Well, when I call myself a culture architect, it's mostly because I do feel like there's quite a bit of my hands in it. So some people like to bring on contracts and then release it to other people to do. While I have people that help me in the work I do, I still like to have my hands in it.

18:44So I see architecture as a very physical, hands-on, connected, hold-handing, partnering type of way of being. So that's the way I am with the speaking. It's the way I'd be with like facilitating roles. And it's the way when I'm entering into a culture transformation type of work with clients. It's just holding closely to it, being closely aligned to it, and having this very human aspect. So every piece of my work at the base is kind of like, how can we be more human? And how can we be more human with the lens of our impact on other people around us? So I want to know what my impact is for me, which is why I talk about self-leadership and caring for me.

19:25And then I want to figure out how can I tweak and adjust my behavior as it relates to people around me and what that means for them, their teams, and the organization. So what are the ripple effects of who I am as a person? So I'm always going to be looking at all of my pieces, my body of work. It really, it's about that. And while I say listening all the time, I think the key here is attentiveness and awareness. So attentiveness of how I'm showing up, attentiveness of how you're showing up, what you might need from me, what I might need from you. So kind of what is that volley? And that is why the human experience part is at the core of everything.

20:06because we can say we want greater performance. We want people to be locked in on a goal or some kind of metric. And in the end, I'm always going to turn it around and be like, okay, but do people feel safe to speak up and reveal and open up about kind of innovative ideas? Or if they see a gap or a hole that's stopping everybody from succeeding, are they okay to speak up about that? Are you listening closely? Are you prepared to respond to them when you hear them? So I'm always going to ask those questions because I feel like so many things are driven by how we perceive things and how we respond to the stimuli around us.

20:42So personal or professional. So good. And I want to focus in on one term that you used, the ripple effects. And that's a term that we could throw away very quickly, but I want people to latch on to this. Because if you've ever been to a still body of water, it can be really shocking as to how far that ripple effect can go with just the smallest thing. You throw a little pebble in, you just watch the still pond, it goes almost across the entire thing. It is amazing to see. So we understand truly what that means in a literal sense, the ripple effect, and it goes really far. But the thing that you talked about with is attentiveness and self-awareness and recognizing the impact that we have on others.

21:29So my question is, why is it so easy for us to see the ripple effect in a pond, but at the same time, so difficult for us to see the impact that we are having on other people and throughout the organization? That's interesting. I think that the ripple that's already there is easy to see because it's not about us. I do think many of us are void of having like a high amount of self-awareness. That's for sure. I mean, even like an emotional intelligence spectrum, I would say I'm probably like 80%. You know, so if it's 80, I'm probably like a B, a solid B. And I tend to be one of the stronger ones.

22:08So I know that even me, who's like a hyper-aware person, I'm aware of what's happening. And I don't always respond. So my emotional self-control is probably my weakest, let's say, measure inside of emotional intelligence. but I have a higher level of emotional intelligence as it relates to what's happening or like what is happening like what if I'm watching you what might be going on there so my level of curiosity about what's going on with you like why are you crossing your arms like this is just now most people don't care I'm like did I just say something are they cold like I'm just always going to ask those questions right so I think if you're a person who's inquisitive you're curious to know why someone's showing up in a particular way, then you can ask questions that get to the bottom.

22:49And when you were talking about this from like these different things from stage, I'm like, that is my guy. And they go, oh my gosh, he and I could totally, because these things are so much about like when you negotiate so much of these very attentive, paying attention to the ripple, understanding the impact we have is so critical in it. So, and I think the other part of the kind of organizational or team impacts, sometimes we're just knee deep in it. I mean, it's hard for us to see that the storm that's right in, like that's a way in the future or over there when we're just right in the middle of it, which is happening all the time right now.

23:24People are just inundated and drowning. And so the new book I have called The Unshakable Team, the entire book is a metaphor, a metaphor about my son who's in a canoe. And so water is kind of the key inside of that book, interestingly enough. I don't really talk about ripples there, although it might be embedded, but it's not explicit. But I am talking about the need to kind of not capsize because of what's happening in the water, which is what the culture is around us, how the leader can exhibit certain behaviors or take on certain practices in order to steady the canoe that everybody else is on.

24:02So that would be the things around psychological safety and listening. How do you, you know, creating trust and care, being more clear with your expectations and who can make decisions. So all of those kinds of things that help to create more stability amongst inside the team, irrespective of what's happening in the water, then the canoe feels more steady because you're in it and you're steadier and you're creating more stability by taking these daily behaviors. So that's who I am in the world. I'm always going to be shining a mirror on who, what behaviors am I exhibiting? And that would be me too.

24:37So like me, you, like all of us exhibiting. That is changing my environment for the good or the worse. And if I am making the water that's supposed to be more external to us, the culture that's around us, if I'm bringing that into the canoe, like I'm actually making it rough because I'm unsteady. That's for me to deal with. I need to deal with that because just like a lot of things spread, like a lot of things on teams, pressure spreads very quickly through a team. I mean, I have examples of this where I did this myself to my teams because I've led teams for 20 years. But also the thing that spreads is steadiness.

25:16So that person who is more stable and steady. Now, I say that because I want to be careful with this idea of steadiness because I don't want people to think steadiness means total calm, never unbothered, this perfectly, you know, poised and unfazed person. It's not, that's not what I mean. I mean, while we might be affected by the environment that's around us and we might even have hard days, like it might be, it might be a tough day. It might be a day where I can't, I don't know if I can talk to my team right now and I probably quite shouldn't talk to my team. So I should probably just go on the corner or go take the day off or work remotely because I'm really not in the mindset and in my mental space to do it.

25:53It does mean that in the middle of it with you and your team, they aren't losing who they are or burning themselves out in order to get team performance to an excellent place. They're not there because there's all kinds of guardrails. How are we building in recovery mechanisms for the team? How do they know we're there for them in the first place? So all of this work that I'm talking about, it's the hallmark of the work I've already been doing. And it just continues to build and grow and get more and more, has more volume to it because I just keep adding more through the research and the experience that I have.

26:28So yeah, it's an interesting journey. This journey is, I love this new name of the podcast you have, because I think about this idea of big swings. And one of the things that I think that actually helps me sustain myself, my family, my team, my projects, my vision, all those things, is the fact that I actually don't mind playing outside of a perfection zone. So I'm very curious, as I said, so that's important. But secondly, I'd like to just try things that may not be fully piloted or fully tested. I've just always been that way. So I have a team that will say, let's make sure like on emails or different things that are supposed to be process focused.

27:18They'll handle that part because it's just not my thing. But they know I'll be like, I think that what if we did this? Let's just do it. How about we just do it? And then I'll take the risk. And if it didn't go well, it's me. It's not you. And they're like, okay, let's go play. So we play in the sandbox. So I feel that that is super helpful because if I lived in the perfection zone or I had to get everything perfect, and again, don't confuse perfection with excellence because I am fully focused on being excellent. I am fully focused on like preparing and having the time to play like we talked about in stage or in life.

27:54So I have done the work. Don't, don't, don't. I don't want you to look at it that way, that everything is completely spontaneous. Simone said that to me. I loved it. He said, you're so spontaneous. I am. And I think things through. Right. So this is, I think all of these things are. So I feel like being that kind of person allows me to take different risks because I'm not afraid that I need to look perfect or that I'm failing from perfection or something strange like that. I just know I will do my best. And because I do have a high excellence mark, I may land at the 85 or 90%. And I'm okay with that in some situations.

28:35Because maybe my 85 to 90 is actually other people's 110%. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Oh, there's so many amazing things to investigate here. So first of all, I love the way that you listen even when you're talking. because you recognize the body language. What you saw was restraint because I was like, oh, there's something I want to say. Now I'm pulling it back, pull it back. So you saw that. I love that. That's brilliant. The thing that I was thinking was you said when it comes to self-awareness, you would put yourself at about 80%. And for me, I think that somebody who has far less self-awareness would probably rate themselves at 100%.

29:17And it's the Dunning-Kruger effect. You have such a high degree of excellence, knowledge, and know-how as it relates to this concept of emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and the impact that you have on other people that you can see what a hypothetical perfect could be. And you could recognize the discrepancy between where you are and where an aspirational best might be. But other people don't have that level of sophistication to even see what the levels are. So they would say, yeah, I'm incredibly self-aware. I know you and I know that's not true. It reminds me one time I was playing my roommate in tennis.

29:58I played tennis. I was on the club team at Ohio State. uh the at ohio state the the actual players on the team they also have professional rankings there were um there was one time what our number one tennis player was representing denmark for in the national in national tennis and he played rafael nadal and it was not an embarrassing loss um you know so that's the level of play and so exactly because i was playing my friend and he's athletic. He was on the soccer team, but he was competent in play in tennis. And I was kind of messing around and I messed around too much. And he won the first game and he started laughing.

30:35And I said, Emeka, I want to be very clear. You will never win another game against me. And he thought I was joking, but I wasn't. And so I beat him 6 '1", 6 '1". He's like, why aren't you on the tennis team? I said, you have to understand there are levels to this game. the way that I beat you somebody else will beat me that way and then another person would beat that person that way, another person would beat that person that way and then you get to the person who beats that person who's on the tennis team, I'm not close right and so but from his perspective I'm close but since I know enough to know I'm not close and it would be the same with soccer and so just know this happens when it comes to people taking their big swings because your distinction between perfection and excellence is so important because you can actually say, I don't need to be perfect to be good enough to get the job done.

31:26But sometimes people investigate so much and they invest so much in their own brilliance and intellect that they always say, I know what perfect is. So I'm not good enough until I'm perfect. And so we have some of the best, most capable people sitting on the sidelines because they're not willing to take that risk because they're not perfect yet. Yes. And that drives me bonkers. I have four kids and I'll hear them, you know, no, I can't do that. I'm like, okay, now you just got underneath my skin. What do you mean by that? Like, I just, it just, it's like the thing that makes me the most mad when people don't want to take that step.

32:04And I, sometimes it's confidence. I, you know, doubt. I think, I definitely think perfectionism is huge in so many people from the top all the way around. It's not just one level. I think you see it at a C-suite. You see it everywhere. And so, but I'll hear them, you know, say, well, you know, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. Or no, I couldn't quite do that. I'm just thinking like, so why are you taking yourself out of the game? You haven't even tried the game, but you're taking yourself out of the game. I don't like that. And so I, sometimes, I don't know about you, this always keeps reminding me and it's so big.

32:33You know, you think about, there's a car you want. For the longest time, I wanted this Honda Odyssey. I have four kids, so I love Trian. I'm moving my kids around when they were younger. So I'd see a Honda as the every dang where. It's like the affinity bias stuff, right? And so the same thing would happen sometimes is when you see things in others that drive you bonkers, oftentimes it does exist inside of us. And so there's probably something where I'm not taking a big swing, like I see it in them and I'm like, like I just want to go, I want to scream when they say, no, I'm not ready. No, I can't do that.

33:04Because there might be times for me where I've said, I'm not sure I'm at their level. And I know I've said it. you're like, I know I've said that. Oh, I'm not quite there. Or I'm sub, like right there. Like I'll say those kinds of things. And I'm like, so I can hear it after the fact, but when I'm in it and I'm watching them do it, I'm so mad. And I think it's because I'm mad at me. Yes. Seriously. I noticed that, especially with parenting, I struggle with patience when I see my kids struggle with something that I worked hard to overcome in the past. And so it's like, oh man, I slayed this dragon and I can remember the exact time when I slayed this dragon.

33:48And then when you see your kids, you see a part of you in it too, in them too. And so then I see them struggling with it. I'm like, no. We already got past that. Yes. We collectively have overcome this, but that's the challenge. You have to approach it with compassion. And one of the things that I do in these situations, especially when somebody who is a perfectionist is holding themselves back. I said, have you ever seen a business owner or entrepreneur or thought leader do something or say something and you're just like, man, they're not that sharp. I see a mistake. I see a mistake. Have you ever seen an imperfect person, imperfect leader, entrepreneur?

34:31Yeah, I've seen that before. I was like, okay, cool. Well, here's the thing. If you want to self-select out, that's completely fine. But just know that there are people who are less capable, less competent, and far dumber than you out there getting it. And they're getting all the money and the recognition that you could be doing. And you could probably hypothetically save people from their business by existing. And if you're cool with letting those people win at your expense, that is completely your prerogative um that that helps people to see it from a different perspective uh-huh i like that i like the perspective shifting shifting that you're doing there uh and i think it's important that we help others do that while we also listen to our own advice because i have to do that often where i'll say it and i'll be like oh i'm like i ended up with this breath i'm like oh that's the message meant for me um and so that that's kind of that's kind of what we do.

35:27I think about when you were saying that, it made me think about, um, there are times I've, I've been kind of at the game I'm at, I've grown, let's say for social media, I've grown tiny, tiny, tiny bits by hard, consistent work, uh, because I've been doing this for a long time, putting in the effort, same thing with, you know, the books, the body of work, the being known for this or searchable for this or all the things, because over one thing I could say about myself and my team is that we just keep doing it. Like we just keep doing it. And sometimes it's excellent and sometimes it's good. And sometimes it's great, right?

36:03And sometimes it's magnetic and sometimes it's boring. I mean, but we keep doing it. And I think that's the other thing is that a lot of times people give up because they don't want to keep doing it. So like, for example, you go back to your working out thing. You don't just arrive at arms like that. I'm sorry, it doesn't happen. It's something you had to put in, right? Seriously. And so I think that's the way with all of us in anything that we do, you've got to be consistent. It doesn't even have to be big things. I love the way you say big swings, but it doesn't. Sometimes the big swings are done by the small moments of just being the most consistent than most people.

36:38And so people will, for example, they will, let's say they started their brand or they've been out on LinkedIn or wherever they've been. LinkedIn's my main platform, the site that's where the bigger, bigger audience is. But I started there. I just would be there. And then there'd be people who would leave and they'd be gone for like two years. And then they'd come back and they'd see I was still there and going, wow, you really have done well. And it's like, uh-huh. That is because I've been here for the two years you were gone. Doing the same thing. I mean, seriously, growing more content, showing up as authentic as I can, adding value to the network.

37:09I just been doing it. And my team has been like, we just keep doing it. I don't know any other way to do it. So I kind of feel like when you think of the big swing, sometimes it's big swings happen because you were just the one who kept showing up. Yes, yes. And it's really about finding those leverage points. What are the changes that you could make in order to get the most leverage? And really what you'll find is that so frequently, it's not something big and grandiose. It might not even be something that's meaningfully recognizable from the outside looking in. It's just the small little micro habits, just consistently.

37:47And then you just say, wait a second, If I keep on doing this, then theoretically it will extrapolate into something big. And there's a funny quote. It's obviously a bit tongue in cheek by Albert Einstein. He said, the most powerful force in the universe is compound interest. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with 100 % Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just$60.

38:27All of it is 50-80 % less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show.

39:03Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward.

39:39And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai.com. That's granola.ai.com to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai.com. Kwame. And it's really fascinating because when you think about it from an investment perspective, if you invest consistently a small amount, it becomes something big. We can see that mathematically, but we often don't take the time to extrapolate the same small, consistent investments in our own life.

40:24Like something little that I started to do because I was thinking I need to start rebuilding my network locally because I have a good, I've been focusing very heavily on national and international growth. And then I realized, man, especially post-COVID, I haven't been doing a good job of investing into my local community. Some people thought I moved. They thought I was not in Columbus anymore. So I said, I need to get back. And so the simple thing that I've been doing is as soon as somebody comes to my mind that I haven't reached out to in a while, I just shoot them a quick text. Hey, Heather, it's been a while.

40:59Hope you're doing well. you were just on my mind. That's it. And then when you just do that with consistency, the impact is really significant. So it doesn't take much to make a big swing. That's very, very true. Actually, you just made me want to purchase. Well, there's I think, you know, I was born in Columbus. I left there when I was nine. So Columbus, Ohio is where I'm from. And I have a cousin who's there. So just remind me because I need to make sure I introduce you to him. He's a former NFL player and you two would love each other. So just remind me that we need to introduce you kay very cool yes look at that i love that i love that oh yeah oh yeah you will be like wow wow that's all i gotta say okay oh now now i'm very intrigued i am very intrigued let's talk about your perspective on risk and your willingness to make changes take big swings and make the big swings like when we think about the podcast we think about taking big swings which are the obvious risks, but also making big swings internally within yourself.

41:57What made you willing to take these shifts? Because even, for instance, going from law to entrepreneurship, that's a big swing. How do you make that calculation? Wow. I do consider myself, I don't know if it's a law background or if it's just surviving as a child in some interesting situations, general traumatic stuff that have made me be the person who's very nimble. I'd have a high level of confidence in my ability, but at the same time, be really masterful tactician. So I'll see, people call me strategic, but I really feel like I'm more of a master tactician. I can just see, I can see that like, if I do this move, what's, what's like the potential?

42:42If I see this move, what's the potential? So I'm always just kind of dissecting options quickly. So it's not like I'm sitting around doing it. I'm not wasting the time doing it. It just happens quickly. I still don't know if this is like a law thing. I think it started as like younger. I'm the only child. I had, there was drug addiction in my home. There was racism for my mom's family. It was all kind of kind of crazy stuff happening. So I was, as a child, I had to kind of just decipher and like connect dots and like figure out my best move. And because I started so young doing that. And then with law, you already know, they teach us all of this, the issue spotting and the, oh my gosh, just like nonstop.

43:15I can't shut it down. And I don't even practice anymore, I still can't shut it down. I'm always issue spotting. So it's a benefit in the work that we do. And also, same thing, I could be in a conversation and immediately go, I actually know what the issue is. But I got to stop myself from going to the solution, right? Because the whole point is to go through the listening and be present because I don't want to make assumptions. That's the thing I said is my superpower. So I got to stop myself. But the issue spotting happens naturally. So I think that the swings are my calculation ends up being very tactical.

43:48I'm like, OK, so if I make this move over here, would this provide me this access to this person or that book or that publisher? So I'm just constantly doing that almost like a computer in my head. That move does these three things potentially. This move does these three things. And so which one gives me the highest value? Which one requires the least amount of time? Which one? Those are the questions I'm asking, which I think it's kind of interesting as you say that, too, because it goes back to how much I listen, like listening to my gut, like listening to the feeling in the world, like what's around me and how does that impact that decision?

44:25And how does that sit with me and how does that impact family? So I'm kind of the perceptiveness and the attentiveness of just really paying attention to it. you know the curiosity is that going to make a move is that going to do something so i think that's it i think that's it it's a deep curiosity is a deep kind of just like sitting in the moment of thinking about it but at the same time i don't take a lot of time to plan it through like oftentimes i'll plan it but it's just it's like that i'm just seeing the things around me issues spotting everywhere yes oh this is so good heather this is so good okay so let me start off with something that will seem highly irrelevant.

45:02So this is, let's talk about a superhero origin story that we've never heard. So imagine this person grows up in a privileged household, a secure family unit. Everything is constantly going perfectly until the day they turn 18. It's their birthday. The sun is shining. The weather is perfect. And then boom, they become a superhero. Not realistic because every single superhero story comes from some level of hardship, right? So if you think about going back to your origin story, you had to fight racism and deal with that from within your own family. You had addiction and everything like that. People who grow up in those types of scenarios, they have to be acutely aware of the subtle shifts that are happening.

45:47Is this person having a good day or a bad day? What does that facial expression really mean? They said this, but their tone was different. What does that mean? But you have to do it quickly. And then when you layer on the fact that we went through an intellectual boot camp that few people can fully appreciate in law school, where they just drill this into you, see the risk, spot the issues. Hey, I know you didn't raise your hand. Mr. Christian, tell me the issues. I'm like, oh, damn, it's in front of everybody. Oh, my gosh. Right. So it's just drilled into you. So you have your origin story, and then you put on a high degree of intellectual skills on top of it.

46:27So in a rapid way, you can see those little tiny shifts that are almost imperceptible to most other people. But you can see how significant those shifts can be. So you have to make those pivots in the moment. So it's cool to see how your background as a lawyer, but also your upbringing, have led you to be able to do this so nimbly. Yeah. And I feel really blessed to be able to do the work I do that allows me to kind of stay in that zone most of the time. Right. So either I'm doing a leadership facilitation where I have them in the room or I have a mixed group of like leaders in their team and I'm like, oh, and I'm paying attention closely and I'm or I'm hearing them talk and I'm shushing up and I'm like, oh, immediately it's like there's three things I see.

47:11and before I just go and here are your three things I'm going to ask more questions because I want them to arrive at their own solutions because I know I need to do that for them to learn yes and I mostly have it like I mostly understand it quickly but I have to kind of slow myself down to make sure that they connect their own dots in the middle of it because that's where the learning and the growth and that's also where they see the value because if I can help them arrive at their places so if I'm in there doing culture work and we create a culture team and we're talking to different employees and they, and as the group, and maybe there's executive sponsors there, they are hearing it.

47:44If I'm asking the right questions, they get to see the emotion, the body language, the connection, the life, the, whatever the thing is come to life in there. And it's because I'm asking the questions that are going to draw it out. And now while I, they get it without me having to tell them. Right. So then they can be like, it's the, I'm just creating like the effort. It's like pieces of evidence. And I tell them all the time, I'm like, and we're, you know, people are always looking for evidence. They're looking for evidence that you're listening. They're looking for evidence that you care about them.

48:12And what are you giving them for their, for the evidence or is there a lack thereof? And those are the kinds of things I pause on the stage. I'll pause and just let them go. Oh shoot. I am providing the evidence, you know, so that's the question, but you know, it's hard. You mentioned earlier this, this restraint. So true. So true. like having to be the person who just you just connect right now you're connecting tons of dots I already know but I can see your wheels turning and you're just like right now oh I need to just let me just take some deep breaths because there's a lot of stuff I'm seeing or a lot of stuff I'm hearing right and it's that kind of thing that I think that's probably where the biggest area of emotional self-control is I think I have more of it there but I don't have it in other places yeah like sometimes personally like with my husband or something I'm like why can't I control myself, I need to do this in my arms or something.

49:03It's so funny. That is so funny. It's the, it's so interesting because when you're a great communicator, sometimes the easiest thing is knowing the words to say, but the hardest thing is the restraint of saying it at the right time in the right way. And I don't know if you've experienced this, but there are a lot of times where I'm in a conversation and I'm, I'm making these reads and I can kind of see a few steps ahead and there's something that they're saying but there's something that's unsaid but i'm like i see that i'm gonna i'm gonna pull the punch though because i don't think that there is enough psychological safety in this moment right now to call that out so i'll i'll keep on asking questions to provide them with enough opportunities to go that direction if they want to and if they don't that's fine but instead of responding directly to what they said i'm going to say something vulnerable from my perspective, from my experience, to give them a little bit of space.

50:05So usually vulnerability can be reciprocal. And so you can kind of say, okay, I see where we could go, but not yet. I'm going to move the path. Yes. I see that sometimes because oftentimes I'm, while I might be working across culture, so people, functional areas inside of a culture, At the end, I'll end up with the CEO or the C-suite. And there's its own dynamic that's there. So I'll end up there because I'm reporting what they need to do next based upon all the listening I've done. And so sometimes I'll know who the culprit is that's actually creating the entire issue downstream. And because they don't have a high level of trust yet or they don't know what they can trust based upon what I'm saying.

50:48And if it's okay and they don't even want to open up, oh boy, that's a whole other set of circumstances. But anyway, I know that. So I'm like, I've already pinpointed, like, if there's a lack of psychological safety in the organization, and I've had the exposure to these different subgroups, and I'm like, like, I just know, like, I can see it, right? And then I'm like, okay, who, who do I have a relationship with enough that I can go the back door, the front door, this, this is what I'm trying to say about the tactician stuff. So I'm just always like, who do I know? And then now I'm here, and I've been with them for, let's say, a year and a half.

51:22Okay, but how far can I still go with that person? because there's a certain people are so guarded this is this is where you our work connects i was just like oh my gosh this is beautiful i was i saw you this is so beautiful because it is that place where you're like you do have to you have to have such a uh the restraint was just the best word to use um foresight i think is another one of just like i think i need to get through this phase this phase work on this person's heart and head on this process then i'm going to circle back around to that person, when I circle back around that person, then I think it's okay for me to go to that person with the topic or say, well, you know, I know when you originally came to me a year and a half ago and you said that you thought psychological safety was a problem in the organization.

52:08Well, we did X, Y, Z. I spoke to 25 of these, 150 of these. We did X, Y, Z process, right? So I'm going through, I'm lining it up. And one of the things that I noticed, I don't know, when you're in meetings um do you usually speak first like i'll just i just get to ask a question so i'm not gonna be like and i noticed this and you're like a jerk right i don't i'm because i still defend he's a jerk or she's a jerk but i'll be able to ask the question do you speak first um because i that is one of the areas so i just kind of do that or i'll just notice one thing i like to ask the questions and they go oh yeah you know oh and it doesn't mean that that changes everything.

52:51I wish it does. I wish I could tell you, oh my gosh, that this is a silver bullet. It takes time. So I need to be with them longer so I can continue to ask those questions that make those people go to see themselves in it, like to see them as the creator of the chaos. Yes. It's only a few usually that are the creators of the chaos. It is an unfortunate reality. It really is. And then it's like, okay, you see it early, but then you recognize, okay, how do I get the person to see it themselves and then accept it and then commit to change like that? Now that last half of the process, that's the longest yard.

53:29That's the hardest part because you can see it. Whether or not you can get the person to accept it and do something, that's challenging. And that's one of the things that's so tough is that no matter what level of sophistication and strategy you bring to it, you're only in control of what you can control. They still have autonomy and agency to decide for themselves. Some people just say, you know what? I ain't changing. Yep. And if you ain't changing, it ain't changing. And that's always like, that's my message. The leaders is like, if you ain't changing, it ain't changing. So if you're looking for different results, you got to look internally.

54:04This mirror image thing is a real thing. And you need to say how much of the ripple that's happening through my organization is starting with me. And oftentimes that C-Suite is where it's starting. Which drives me the most bonkers because oftentimes they're the ones who try to exclude themselves from the body of work that I present. So they'll say, oh, that's for our managers or our frontline team. And I'm like, okay. And? Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one?

54:45Quince makes high-quality staples with 100 % Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just$60. All of it is 50-80 % less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only.

55:27That's the best way to support the show. Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward.

56:05And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai.com. That's granola.ai.com to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai.com. I really think we want to make sure we don't exclude you from that. We want to make sure all the leaders are talking. We want to make sure we're aligned in how we talk about things. We want to make sure they see that you're willing to do the work too.

56:41So I have to have those kind of conversations where they want to exclude themselves from the work to be done. Because they think that they have arrived. They think that they're the people who think they're the 100 % on the emotional intelligence. Exactly. Exactly. What does it mean to be unshakable? And what do people think it is but they're wrong? Unshakeable does not mean unbothered. Most people think that unshakable means that you are resilient, alone. And unshakable, the way I've set it up is that unshakable is both resilience in the moment and steadiness by design. So you are being more intentional about how you can withstand a storm.

57:17You are making sure that you don't capsize when the water gets rough. Awesome. Awesome answer. Now, I'm going to ask a follow-up. when somebody from the outside identifies another person as unshakable, what is that person's personal experience of being unshakable? In other words, how does it feel to be unshakable? I have a podcast called Becoming Unshakable. And I'm saying this because the word becoming was very intentional on my part. And it's because I don't think that we ever arrive at a destination, like that we arrive there and then we all of a sudden we're unshakable. I think we're in the process always of doing it.

57:57And that's why I think this idea of steadiness by design is the real focus I want to talk about. Resilience is embedded. I think we've actually all earned that through COVID and all the other things that have happened to all this in the world and the macro view. And so in order to be this person, you have to be one who is intentional, who is paying attention to what's around you and your team and the impact that you have. and when you do that you have a desire to get better and that is it it doesn't mean you're going to arrive at this perfect place yes no great answer because the reason i ask is because you talked about it earlier with the term uh steady too because from the outside looking in you could look at somebody and say yeah they are unshakable unflappable they're always steady and sometimes people say that about me and i'm like i don't feel that way right now that might be what you see, but I see that the experience that I'm having right now, there are a lot of internal battles that are having, even though I might manifest calm composure and togetherness, sometimes the feeling of being unshakable is far different internally than the perception is from the outside looking in.

59:08Yes. And I love that. As a follow-up response to that, then what I think is that if you're someone who is on a strong path to becoming unshakable, you have the confidence, know that you have the tools that you need to make it through things, that you have the tools that you need to not capsize when the water gets rough around you, meaning culture, meaning, gosh, outcomes, or getting things that are unclear. You know you have the tools. You know what is yours to lead. You know what stories you're going to tell yourself or what facts you're going to focus on. So I think that's the main thing. The people who are on that strong journey to becoming unshakable know what their tools are and they access them.

59:48Yes. Oh, so good. So good. What did 40 ,000 employee survey comments teach you that surprised you the most? What employees need from their leaders and organizations is not rocket science. It's all things that we can control and it's very behavior-based. Wow. Can you give one of the most interesting examples of that? One of the biggest things I hear a lot as I'm reading those and or doing listening sessions is there's a perception that there's a lack of fairness in treatment. And if there was just enough awareness and a stronger sense of really listening to your employees, having one-on-ones, even your team meetings, even just paying attention to what we talked about earlier, recognizing the unsaid, then you might see that what you're doing is unbalanced or not producing that sense of fairness in your team.

1:00:46But if you're not present enough, you're not pausing enough to see what's right in front of you, it's going to be hard for you to understand the kind of treatment you're exhibiting. Yeah. Oh, so good. So good. Okay. Simone. Simone always listens and has either an insightful comment or great question. Simone, what is on your mind? What does becoming unshakable mean in the daily life of a leader? How does it look like in the enterprise? Like an example. The very first thing about becoming unshakable as a leader is actually to steady yourself first. It has to start with you. You can't go solid for the team if you're actually the problem.

1:01:29So if you are a person who's spilling out over the team all the time because your emotions are high and you don't have a good emotional self-control and they're feeling your tension and they're feeling that this lack of uncertainty is impacting you in such a way that you're not operating at your best, how in the heck can your team be a proper reflection, a better reflection if you are the reflection you are? So I would say steady you first and be careful on the spillover effect. Wow, thank you. Simone, why are you laughing? Why are you laughing? probably the same reason I'm laughing why what was it why are you laughing you know we'll tell you offline

1:02:14this is great Heather this is so so good I appreciate you coming on the podcast this has been full of gems so good and so many fun twists and turns before you go can you let the listeners know how best they can work with you, tell them about the book and how they can connect. The book is called The Unshakable Team. This is my fifth book. So there's a whole body of work. If you need to access anything on leadership and culture, you can find me on LinkedIn. Just look up Heather Younger or my website, heatheryounger.com. Pretty easy to get ahold of me if you want to find me, if you really do. Amazing.

1:02:48Heather, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever, and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Ahrensmele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the U.S.

1:03:31Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.