Why Qualified People Get Passed Over - Heather Spilsbury

0:00What does it take to run a company? I know you think I'm talking about the CEO, but I'm not. I'm talking about the people behind the CEO, the people who can fire the CEO. What does it take to be on a board of a public company? Now, you might be saying, well, Kwame, I'm not trying to be on the board of a public company. Fair. But you are trying to do something big. And perception is going to have a big role in whether or not people see you as worthy of the opportunity that you're going for. Our guest today is Heather Spellsbury and her entire focus is helping women to get on the boards of publicly traded organizations.

0:35Now you might be saying, hey Kwame, I'm not a woman. Should I listen to it? Yes, you should. Because number one, this is important information that you can use as well for your big swings. And number two, allies and advocates are important. So this episode is a gem. Heather has been on the podcast before and she crushed it. So we had to bring her back. My friends, you are in for a treat. This is the story of Heather Spillsbury. Welcome to Big Swings Only. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of Granola free at granola.ai slash Kwame.

1:16For your gift list, shop quince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. and make sure to tell them that Kwame with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com slash Kwame.

1:40You've been in my life so long that I forgot how we originally met. You know, there are these characters in your life where you're like, did we start the show together? or where did we go? I guess I should confess it now, but I think I started listening to your podcast when I was still working at The Shepherd. I think at the start of that job, because you've been on air for what, a decade now? Yeah. Yeah. Or more. More. And I just, you know, my role at that time was a VP of development and marketing. And I just loved the way you talked about negotiation. And I remember just thinking, this is the best podcast I've ever heard, because it puts like the most extreme situations, whittles it down to things that you can use in your everyday career.

2:32And I knew you were a lawyer and you had that background. But I also thought this is what I do in my everyday life with clients. I have to pitch. I have to negotiate. I have to compromise. We all have to come to the table and like each other at the end of the day. And then to grow that relationship took a lot of negotiation. So I always say like my superpower is really influencing people to do what I hope they will do. And in return, that I can give them back something too, and that we build that relationship from the ground up starting there. And I just listen to you. And then at one point when I did switch over and took this role with what was then 2020 Women on Boards as the chief marketing officer, I just reached out to you on LinkedIn.

3:17And I said, listen, I've been a huge fan forever. I would like to get you involved in some way, shape or form. We still need to figure out how we're going to do that, Kwame. But I mean, essentially, I sent you a note and you responded. And I remember like running to my husband and I'm Like he responded to my LinkedIn. This is crazy. I mean, I felt like a celebrity had reached back out to me. And you were so nice and so generous. And we just had a really nice exchange. And you said you should come on the podcast. And I did a few years ago. And I remember listening to it thinking, oh, my gosh, I sound like a frantic.

3:49I felt like someone running a marathon. Because I naturally speak fast. But I think I was so nervous that I was like on another level. and I thought well at least I did it I did the podcast but I don't think he'd ever ask me to come back again and here we are here we are first of all thank you for reminding me this is this is great fun fact that's how Simone and I are together you know yeah it's and now you see how I think about my team I was like that's why you see Simone and I are friends yeah everybody knows like it's the business relationship but no these are my friends yeah so that's that's really cool That's how all business relationships work best.

4:31You know, you have to like the other person. I mean, to an extent, right? Otherwise, it becomes very difficult to work with people and or have people on your team if they don't know you. And that's an important part of, you know, I think any good team. for sure oh i've got a funny story for you this is early days of the podcast simone i don't know if you even know this so back back in the the old days um when i could not afford to do anything i had to edit and do everything myself and so i was just i would do the podcast and then i would edit myself the the cadence at the beginning was hey everybody you'll you can get a podcast whenever i can get to it.

5:16I don't know how long. Sometimes it's six weeks, sometimes it's four, whatever. But I remember when I was editing my podcast at the beginning, I was like, that's how I sound. That's my voice. Why do I breathe so much? Why do I breathe so much? And I was editing out every single breath. I'm like, Kwame, this is psychotic. What's wrong with you. But so many people have that relationship with their voice where they hear it and they're like, who is this person? Oh, yes. I mean, even right now, just having the earplugs in, you know, you can hear yourself a little bit differently. And I just think, oh.

5:59It's but just it's nice to know that everybody has that exact same insecurity. So technically, I guess everybody sounds weird. I would think radio people did it. You know, I mean, I would think they would love listening to themselves and that's why they enjoy speaking but maybe not maybe that's not it but i was maybe they're the rare few but you loved like the old school radio boys and now we're tuned into radio six listening that's not how could you imagine if the person spoke like that someone asked me recently if i was a news anchor i said why and they said oh because you you talk like one it's like is that a good thing or a bad thing no i thought is that a compliment i'm not sure i never got anchor vibes from you oh yeah i had i got boss vibes from you so nice yes yes speaking of bosses that isn't that what you're doing now you you've you run a boss factory we we do 50 50 women on boards is a global 501c3 non-profit and i was um fortunate enough to join the organization six years ago during the height of the pandemic.

7:06I was hired as the chief marketing officer. And really, I tell this story all the time. I thought I was going to be here for two years, you know, because I was thinking about it as a brand. And that was my life's work was working on brands and making them successful and, you know, hopefully continuing to work with them or then flipping them and moving on. And so I thought, OK, I'll be here two years and then I'll go on to my next venture. And the first two years were pretty incredible. We, you know, we did a lot of great work. I think it, you know, a lot of things were in support of that, including the death of George Floyd, which also enhanced people's sort of radar of like, how do we continue to make a difference within businesses and become more inclusive and really think about this from a different perspective.

7:48And so we had a really good run from 2020 to 2022. And then, you know, we're a network of volunteers, so we're not a membership organization. And I started to work more closely with the volunteers and really get to know them. And between 21 and 2022, my mindset really changed. You know, we're a people business. We're in the business of making sure that people feel supported in their careers and their board journeys, whatever that might be. and that really struck me as like a different chord and I felt like you know I was looking for something with a lot of impact and where I felt like I was also making an impact but what I realized was these are individuals that are searching for some support in their in their business ecosystem and so this is this is bigger than anything I could have ever imagined and how How do you work towards helping support these individuals in the most effective way?

8:51And that sort of changed the way I looked at the organization, the way I looked at my role in particular. I then moved into the COO role, and today I sit as the CEO. But it's been a journey for me personally and professionally, which I put a lot of, I just, I guess, gratitude because I don't think, I don't know how to say this without getting teary eyed, but I don't, I don't know where I'd be if I wouldn't have found this organization. I think I would have been still working and still, you know, working for brands and flipping them. But I don't think I would have got what I've received out of, out of this position that has been so rewarding in so many ways.

9:30That is beautiful. It's, it's so interesting how many people have these, you, you just see them at this point and then you say, oh, this person was born for this, obviously, right? But you go back just a few years, this was not the obvious conclusion. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah. So tell us more. What changed in your mind that really led you to say, oh, wow, I kind of accidentally stumbled upon my life mission? Yeah. You know, a lot of it had to do with our former CEO, too, Betsy Berkmer-Cadrera. You know, She's made this her life's work. She was really an impressive leader. She took the organization to the level that I founded at.

10:14And it was inspiring to see her and so many others that were volunteering for the organization as well just committing their time to this effort in their own regions. We have 20 locations across the U.S. and then six international cities. And these are individuals that are volunteering their time to ensure that our regional impact and awareness is apparent and that they're putting on events and that they're supporting the organization in that way. And that, to me, speaks volumes into what we're doing here as an organization. So, you know, to answer that question, I think it's interesting because sometimes you don't know where your career will lead you, but you sort of have to have faith that it's leading you in the right direction.

11:04You know, I took a chance switching from private to nonprofit work. And I knew it was going to it was going to be something that would change my career, either for the better or for the worse. But I felt that it was the right time to do it. And I remember contemplating over it, but thinking I can do it now because I can always go back and decide what else I want to do later when I grow up. But, you know, it's an interesting transition that I think a lot of people find themselves in. And maybe it just happens naturally as you reach a certain point in your career where you think about what am I doing really to make this world a better place while also supporting yourself and, you know, building your career at the same time.

11:50Yes. And that's the key, right? How can I help people have an impact and not, you know, lose everything? in the process. Well, yeah, I guess you have to be realistic at the same time. Yes, yes. No, this, this is really interesting, because the there's, it's been a journey, and it's had lots of twists and turns for you. And you're very clear on your purpose. But for you, when you think about not just the good times, but the setbacks, the hard times, how do you keep on persevering and moving toward that purpose when times are tough? Yeah, that's a great question. When I joined the organization, it was the height of the pandemic.

12:32And so that was one hurdle that I thought personally and professionally would be really interesting to get through, you know, to ensure that we could turn this organization around and that it could continue functioning within the environment because previously everything had been done in person. So it and and there wasn't a lot of infrastructure. And so it was, it was a building. And so that was really exciting for me. It's, it's one of the, one of the ways that I've built my career is sort of building clients and ensuring that they're successful. And again, I looked at it from that perspective and thought, okay, if I can get through this and turn this around and really build something better than it was before, then that would be a great milestone, not only for me, but for the organization.

13:18And now we're facing all this. It's a different, it's a different, I hate to call it a crisis, but it's a different hurdle, right? We have pushback on DE &I. We have, you know, an administration that doesn't believe in any of the programs that were, you know, initially part of a corporation's inclusivity programs or affinity programs. And so that's been really interesting to watch some of that go from we're building this to dismantling it. And then our organization sort of being at the center of that and saying we're still here to support people who are looking for ways to advance in their board journey and career.

14:06And still working with a lot of corporations that really believe that that is important, you know, to include people and to ensure that they're rising up within the organization and beyond that. so it's been an interesting hurdle but what I will say is that it also to me has created a lot of insight into which corporations are really doing it for the right reasons one because they believe in it and it's their values and it's always been part of their business and that has been carved out and that was carved out pretty quickly when all of this started to occur. And without making it too political, you know, it really is something that we've seen take sort of a backseat and a backtrack.

14:51And companies have had to almost change a lot of their messaging in order to keep some of the contracts that they currently have. And that's sort of been an interesting thing to sort of watch unfold. But again, the percentages and the percentages is backtracking from 30%, which was the height of what we got to in 2024, to now 29 % and seeing that continue to fall, isn't just about women securing board seats. It's really about what are the opportunities out there for individuals and how are they going to continue moving forward, knowing that there has been some decline when it impacts everybody.

15:30And it doesn't just impact those that are searching for a board seat. It also impacts those that are trying to get from a manager position to director to so on and so forth into the C-suite. And so we want to make sure that we keep moving that in the right direction. So that all said, it is just about leading with your values. You know, we've also seen some nonprofits change the way that they are putting messaging out there, changing their name, et cetera. And we never did that. You know, this is our mission. We're 50-50 women on boards. It doesn't mean we're excluding men. It means that we're trying to include women, which is the lowest totem pole of what we're talking about when we're talking about inclusive, inclusive, you know, governance levels and leadership levels.

16:15You know, gender is like. The lowest bar and then you go up from there, right, then women, then you can include people of color. I mean, it just that's the sort of the trajectory that this goes in. And so if we can't get to gender equality and how are we going to get to anything else? And so we have stayed true in our messaging. We've stayed grounded in who we are. And in some cases, that means that we don't have the dollars that we used to have. And in some cases, it means that we've secured other dollars to be able to supplement for that. But that is the reality of the situation. And what you have to ensure is that, one, your entire team is behind the mission and that they understand the mission and that they are clear on the things that you're trying to achieve.

17:01And then moving forward in that direction with a lot of conviction sometimes means that you don't get the things that you thought you would get or you don't get the success that you thought you'd continue to have. But that's okay, you know, because you know that the tide will change. And as long as you keep moving in the right direction for the right reasons and having the right conversations with the right corporations, then this will move in the right direction. Yes. No, well, very well said. And I know you have a position where you need to be very mindful of the way that you articulate things.

17:33Yes. So let me clarify a couple of things. And tell me if maybe you could just blink twice. So essentially what you're saying is with a lot of organizations and corporations, they made these statements about what they would do when it came to diversity, equity, and inclusion. We're going to do this and that and this. Then once the administration changed, they said, OK, our lives will become significantly worse if we don't get on board. And if we so we're going to change our values, essentially. And some organizations went as far as to change their name to say, OK, you know what, we are accepting.

18:09So hypothetically, if you would have taken that route, you would have been 20, 20 or 50, 50 humans on boards. We just want to help general humans get further. And that's it, everybody. right and that as you can see though an admirable organization humans are great i know a few few few humans um it kind of takes away from the specificity of the problem that you were trying to solve yep that is exactly it 100 and it you know and it's not easy um sometimes to keep moving forward and in that way you know there's a lot of assumptions that are made or you know risk that you know, is part of the equation that you have to think about as an organization.

18:53But then ultimately, at the end of the day, you do have to stay grounded in what the mission is and ensure that you're preparing for those risks, should they occur or should they happen. But, you know, you have to, I believe that we had to stay who we are, which we did. And I'm very proud of that. Yeah. And you should be. I mean, I think one of the things when people, There might be people listening. I'm trying to snipe some thoughts from the crowd. So there might be some people saying, well, what real pressure can the government put on you to change your values as an organization? I think a lot of people would be very surprised at how many private institutions have a significant amount of their money coming from the government and how much latitude the government has on pulling contracts.

19:38Because there's always going to be some organization that says, hey, listen, we'll play ball. we'll take that money just instantly. And so the, and this is a real significant challenge. I know it's a challenge that I'm obviously not going to name names. I will say whatever I want except this. I have had some clients that have had to change some of their, their directionality of their dollars because they, a hidden client of theirs is the government. And it can be really surprising sometimes. And so you were bold enough to stay true to your mission, your values and everything. And that's very admirable.

20:16For the people who were not bold enough to do so, how did you survive? Because they changed course because they didn't think they could. I think they're still surviving as well. It's interesting when we're talking about other nonprofits in this space or even other companies who have done some of that, that those changes are even an about face, especially for corporations. I think they're still surviving. The question is, how supportive are their stakeholders and shareholders? And in some cases in corporations, that's the reason that they did do an about face is because they needed to adhere to what the shareholders and their stakeholders wanted, right?

20:56To your point about having government contracts and things that could impact the business. I think from a consumer perspective, I think there's been backlash on some of those corporations that have done that. And you can see it, you know, and I think there's others that have done a really great job. I always use Elf as an example because they're also a great partner of ours. But Terang, the CEO, is in a really fantastic job of saying, no, this is who we are as a brand. And if you need any ROI behind why we have these inclusivity programs and processes and why we are doing a program like Change the Board Game is why we're successful.

21:32And so they've just said, no, we're continuing to go down this road. MasterCard's another great example of that, also a sponsor of ours. So I just want to be clear about that. But they are another example of a corporation who has said that we're a global organization. This is part of our makeup and it is a return on investment that the shareholders got behind. And so they continue to move in the right direction. And there's many others. But I think when we look at those that have shifted or made changes, you can see it. I mean, you see it sometimes in the stock numbers, sometimes you see it in the narrative that's being built around them.

22:09And that's something you never want to have happen. You want to make sure that you own that narrative. And that's very clear. You know, I, I, I target is one of those, those companies, again, that, you know, they had so many programs that were part of their DE &I initiative. And in some cases, they reverted on those. In other cases, they've just made some poor decisions, I think, that have led to some backlash from consumers and rightfully so. So I think they're still standing. I just think that the perception has changed. And that is always something that you have to think about from a long-term perspective is how do you then change that narrative in the future?

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23:26Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live.

24:01That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with ShopPay converts up to 36 % higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to hear your first once the story is different so you don't want to be flip-flopping because that seems odd it seems it seems odd it seems like a choice like that many people are making you know you just wear different masks every four years right which doesn't make any sense you know and at this point i also think that we've gone so far on both sides right and again not to get too political but We've gone so far to the extreme that I hope that people are starting to go, well, wait a second.

25:13We're all somewhere in here. And whatever it might be from an economic standpoint, some people consider themselves more Republican. From a societal standpoint, some people are more democratic. And I think all of us are somewhere in this middle ground where now we're sort of seeing this play out. And maybe I'm hoping that companies and organizations and nonprofits are going, well, wait, like we've got to just keep doing the right thing. That's right for the organization. That's right for the company. That's right for our employees, stakeholders, shareholders, customers, everybody that's involved.

25:52So that's where you hope that that ends up leading. But it's, you know, it's been a tough environment. Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. And let's say hypothetically, if you're talking to me and I am a person who has a ruthlessly capitalistic mindset, the only thing that matters is shareholder return. Why should I care at all about gender equality and representation of women on boards? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think you have to care about it because it naturally impacts the people that you're employing, you know, and those that are moving up within the leadership ranks. And I think you have to think about it from a perspective of if we're not including women in the boardroom, then it's very difficult to include other people in the boardroom too that could have a different perspective, a different outlook.

26:55And we're talking about so many different types of individuals you could search for, for a board candidate. And sometimes we're limited to, let's just find a CEO that's sitting in their seat right now who can help support the board or a CFO sitting in that seat. And generally the makeup of sitting CEOs are white males. It's just a fact. And so if that's your only talent pool that you're pulling from, then boards become very insular and it becomes very much of tapping who you know. And we've been there before. And then we've gone to the other extreme where we've been tapping other individuals who can add different perspectives and are from different backgrounds and different expertise, et cetera.

27:44It's the whole gamut, right, of what you're looking for when you're searching for talent. So it impacts everybody. It impacts how women move forward in their careers. It impacts who you employ. It impacts who's looking at your company and wanting to get hired. It impacts the talent that you retain. I think that's also really important because if you're changing or you're doing something different, you're only invested in what's working from an economic standpoint, you're going to lose a lot of people that way because they won't feel supported in their roles. Right. Right. Makes a lot of sense.

28:16So I recognize as we're having these the earlier part of the conversation, I said, oh, we started without addressing the core underlying assumption. So I wanted to make sure we got that out. Yeah. And this is good. And also, I think it's important to approach this from a societal perspective, a structural perspective, because those are the things that will have an outsized impact on the outcomes that we see. And so it's hard to outperform your environment in many cases. So I always want to make sure that we start in those types of, I want to make sure that we set the scene effectively. Because tell me if this resonates at all with you.

28:58I had, oh, Simone, remind me, is the name Kate Eberle Walker, who was on the podcast a while back, we're talking about salary negotiation, and she brought up a really good point. She said with her book on making sure that you can get what it is that you deserve, what you deserve, she did not want to approach it from the perspective of, quote, fixing women, where we say, oh, the reason why you're in this bad position is because you don't do this, you don't do that, et cetera, et cetera. So before we get into any individual activity, I wanted to make sure that we addressed the structural side first.

29:38So that was my mentality. I don't know. Have you, tell me, does that resonate? Have you seen well-meaning people kind of go down that kind of fixing women type of approach? Absolutely. I think that's just been a generalization for most women in their careers. You know, you're not, you're not ready yet. You know, you don't have the leadership qualities. You don't present yourself as a leader. There's different phrases that I think are that we've all heard some somewhere along the way, you know, especially when we're asking for a raise or a promotion. And usually as and I'm sure this happens to men, too, but we have to ask for the promotion.

30:22We have to ask for the raise. It's not just hand it to us. It's not like, oh, you've done a great job. Now I'm going to move you, you know, to X, Y, Z rule. usually you've got to work for it you got to take on an additional project you've got to you know you've got to stretch yourself and that's always what we've just been used to like you're gonna you're gonna take a stretch role and you know they're gonna see if you actually perform and then they'll decide um so i do believe in that because i think that i think we put a lot of emphasis on gender when equally there there's amazing talent there's a there's you know incredibly smart men, incredibly smart women who have built these careers and know their stuff, that they'll make their way there.

31:05But sometimes it's a bit different for women, I think, in the things that we've heard, you know, and it's just been ingrained in business and culture and just something we just have to be cognizant of, you know, and sometimes you don't even realize it's happening as you're moving forward in your career. Exactly. Exactly. That's because I wanted to make sure we addressed this before we transition into things people can do to be successful. Because I didn't want somebody to listen to this and say, oh, it's women's fault. They just need to do this. No, no, no, no, no. We got this whole half hour addressing the earlier part.

31:40So I'm glad. So when you think about your life and you think about the people that you've seen succeed and get to that board level, which is the goal of your organization, what are the qualities that lead people to rise to the top? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, and it's not easy, especially when you're securing a public company board seat. So I don't want to, I don't want to be passive about it and say that everybody can do it because not everybody can. There is a certain type of expertise and experience that boards are searching for. You know, they want it depends also on the board's makeup and matrix and what talent they're searching for at that time.

32:20But for the most part, these are C-suite level executives of public companies who have spent their career building and developing relationships and networks and and usually growing an organization. It's a lot about growth and who you know. and if you've specifically done mergers and acquisitions in your lifetime, that's also credible. But you've got to know how to read a P &L. I mean, you have to have a financial acumen. Usually, you know, they want somebody who's a qualified expert, you know, qualified financial expert, a QFE. And that's really important because you have a fiduciary responsibility to the board.

32:59So when boards are searching for talent, those are the key things. Then other things might also help add value, whether you're an expert in technology, cybersecurity, AI, et cetera. Those are all great expertise to have. But we talk about talent a lot, especially with our friends of our organizations and things like this. And Joe Heard and a couple of others have always said, you know, it's like a T-shape. Think of it as a T-shape. You got to go sort of deep in your expertise, but then you have to look at the organization from a whole, which is why a lot of times CEOs are tapped for these positions because that's the role that they've been playing.

33:35They have a certain expertise that they bring to the organization, but they're also looking at it from a wider lens and going, how do we continue moving forward in the right direction? How are we operating? How are we creating opportunity for the enterprise, but also avoiding risk? And so those are crucial questions and things that happen within the board setting. And then there's a lot of other things that take place too from a policy standpoint, bylaws, charters, committees, et cetera. So everybody's job on the board is to hire and fire the CEO to make sure that they're doing the right job for the enterprise in that specific moment.

34:11And five years from now, who else will succeed or longer, depending on that current CEO, who's going to be in succession of that CEO? And are we building the right talent and developing the right talent for that role? So it's a big job. You know, you've got legal implications that you have to think about, too, when you're taking on the role. Typically, the enterprise will have D &O insurance, and you also usually are protected as well under your own if you've served on one or two boards. But it is work, you know, and I think especially now, there's more work being done on boards. It used to be, oh, I'm going to sit on the board, and I'll just listen to, you know, the management team and also the CEO give their presentations and give some advice and be advisors for them.

34:57And maybe there's one or two crisis that take place while my tenure serving on this board. And now it's incredibly difficult. I think a crisis happens almost every day and boards are really part of that process of determining what gets escalated, what doesn't, what sits with management, what doesn't. And especially in times like this where there's a lot of disruption, I mean, not only from technology and AI, but also from supply chain and tariffs. You know, I think there's a lot more meetings that are happening and board directors who are really putting in the time to be able to serve that organization in the right capacity.

35:35So to answer your question, they need to be C-suite executives, really, that have a full life career that they could say and pinpoint, these are the things that I've done that would add value to the board. And it's a lot of what we talk about, too, is how you flip the script. Your operational expertise has to get flipped into that board value, which is really important, because if you don't know how to do that or articulate that, then that's a that's sort of a red flag of this person's not ready yet. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that's very helpful because for a lot of folks, it almost seems as though the path to that position is shrouded in secrecy.

36:16How does one get there? It is because the recruitment process isn't open. It's not something you apply for. There's different ways that a board director gets selected. It's through your network. It's through a recruitment firm. It's through somebody knowing you on the board. And sometimes all three of those things need to happen at the same time for you to get considered. And then once you're in that pool of getting considered, then you go through interview process and then one person gets selected for whatever reasons. And part of that, too, is culture. Do you fit in with the current culture of the board?

36:55And that can also be something that sways that decision as well. You know, how well are you going to work with others and collaborate with the other individuals on the board and do people, you know, can they sit at the table and work with you? Well, to that point, though, if we're having issues with diversity on boards, how does one prove that they can play well with others at that level if nobody looks like them at the table? It's a great question. I think that's what started to change in 2020 is when people started to look outside of their own network and really think about the talent they were pulling into their boards.

37:32that became sort of the open door to say, let's do that search and search for other talent and bring on women, et cetera. And by the time I joined this organization, I just want to be clear, women held 19 % of public company board seats. And now we're at 29. So that's a huge leap from 2020 to 2026 and a good one. And at one point it was 30%. But in addition to women, people of color have also gained a lot of seats. And I think it's the boards have decided to do that and make those changes. Someone was the one and only at one point. But what happens with diversity is if you bring a woman or a person of color, they think about the board makeup more intentionally than others.

38:20And that's a good thing. And so then you get, you know, additional people to serve on the board. And not every board didn't have women, you know, but there was a majority of the boards that didn't. So, you know, it is it is sort of taking that chance. So sometimes it can be intimidating to be the one and only. But I think if you're offered that position and the culture feels right and you can you can make that inroad and difference and secure that first seat for you. I always say take it because a lot of us have been in that seat, you know, the one and only seat. And it's not easy sometimes, but sometimes it can be really great.

38:57And you find that the other leaders in the room actually do want to bring more talent on. They've just never done it before. And so you have to drive that, you know, drive that initiative and ensure if you're on the non-gov committee or if you're chairing the non-gov committee that you're being intentional about where you're searching for talent. Yep. Yep. And let's kind of widen our aperture for a bit here. because the answer to this question is going to be similar to the answer to the question as it relates to board members too. So based on what you've seen, what differentiates somebody, what's the differentiator between somebody who knows what they need to do and is competent and capable enough to do the job and the narrative associated with whether or not they can do it?

39:48because there are going to be people who are certainly good enough, but people look at them and say, oh, no, I don't think they're ready, versus somebody who might not be good enough, but then they are able to present differently and create a stronger narrative. Can you help us to kind of reconcile these differences here? Yeah, I think that's the confidence piece, though, that has to land when you're having those conversations about why you should be on the board. If you're interviewing, there's a lot of studies out there, too, Kwame, about how women interview versus how men interview, which is really interesting.

40:28And it's psychological sometimes, but it's also, I think, how we're trained to talk about ourselves. And this is, you know, just something that happens, I think. And also, if you come from a diverse background, like myself, you know, my parents are from El Salvador. I was always told, you know, just put your head down, work really hard, you know, be humble about what you're doing and don't talk about yourself in that way. And it's like, okay. And you, and you just, you just do that because you think that's going to get you there. And yes, it will get you far, but I think you do have to tell people, remind people, put your head up.

41:08You've got to talk about yourself and you have to be confident. And it happens, right? We see it in workplaces where someone else deserves a job, but somebody else has secured it because of the way they presented themselves in that interview. Same thing happens with board searches. The way you present yourself and articulate your expertise and experience makes a huge difference. If someone else can do that better and align it with the enterprise and the board value, then yes, they might have a leg up in securing that seat over you, even though you, your qualifications might be better. Yes. Yes.

41:45Okay, good. You're picking up what I was putting down. Yeah. That's the thing because, you know, I'm a child of immigrants too. It was always, you have to work twice as hard to get the same recognition. And I even get family members today saying, oh, you don't need to share everything online. You don't need to live loud. I'm like, I'm not allowed. Just, it's hard to be a thought leader if I'm not sharing my thoughts publicly. It's like, there's always a, this, this concern is like, just, just do your job. Just do your job. I'm like that. What? But the, but the loud person over there who's not doing the job is getting all the opportunity.

42:19It's, and so it's, it is a really, I feel like there's a lot of unlearning that has to happen when it comes to being promotional. Can you speak a little bit more to that because I think that's really interesting because perception is reality and we think that people are going to be able to see oh objectively they have done this much work they have worked these many hours and have produced xyz but if somebody comes in super flashy and confident they're like I like his charisma then they get the job well yeah and that happens I you know it's so funny that you say perceptions reality because I was told that I think five, six years ago.

43:02And I remember thinking, I hate, I hate that term because sometimes it's not reality, but it, but it is. As I've gotten older, I'm like, oh yes, it is. It is reality. That's unfortunate. Because you could, you know, and it's tough too in leadership roles because it's a fine line of yes, promoting yourself and, and being a thought leader and And also being humble about it and being authentic around it, too, I think is really important. You know, I think there's there's a lot of misconceptions, I think, too, about leadership in general and how people should lead or maybe how they were trained to lead or what makes a leader.

43:47And, you know, it's funny because sitting in this role, I almost feel as if my leadership is to make sure that other people are happy in their role, that they feel equipped and empowered to do that role.

44:06that people are working together, that we're bringing in the right talent to support what the organization needs, whichever organization I've ever worked at, but in particular at 50-50, because they're really running the show. As CEO, you have to step back and you can't get involved in a lot of the day-to-day as much as you want to. I mean, you stay in tune with it and what's happening with it, but it is a distinction between your previous role and stepping into this role. This year has been an interesting one because it is a transition year for the organization and myself to go, I have to also make some changes in the way that I work, which is hard for someone who's always put their head down and worked, worked, worked, you know, and delegating that responsibility and leaving it is a transition in one's own career.

44:59But setting people up for success, I think, is what you do as a leader. And so it's a fine line. I don't even know if I'm answering that question correctly. But I think going back to what you were essentially asking was it's tough. I mean, I think you have to find your people too. There are people that are looking for, let's say, a board director like you that maybe does interview the way you interview. And so that's OK if that's that's how you present yourself. As long as you're not leaving anything on the table, as long as you're expressing your board value, I would say don't change yourself as a person.

45:40Like if you're not the person that's loud and wants to be loud, don't do that. But find ways to talk about your work and amplify it that works for you, because it's also important when people are searching for candidates. I will say the first place they go to is LinkedIn. If they get a candidate on their list, they're going to go to LinkedIn. They're going to figure out, is this person's career match and align with their board profile? Where has this person been? How influential are they? What's their network look like. And that's part of the gig. Exactly. No, you're absolutely right. And I think you can be self-promotional while still being humble.

46:21Because for me, the way that I define humility is accuracy. If I understate what it is that I can do, then I'm not being humble. I'm being deceitful. If I'm, if I am, if I genuinely believe I'm the best to do something and I say, you know what, I don't think it, you know, I think if you go in any direction, you'll be fine. Then that's a lie. That's not humility. That's not virtuous. You know? And so if you believe that you are really good at what you're doing and you have the receipts to prove it, just say, yeah, I believe that I am more than qualified to do this because if you look at my track record, I did this, I did that, I did this, and this is the feedback I received.

46:56So I do believe that I can handle this. And that is just stating it confidently and humbly while being accurate. It becomes arrogance when you are doing it in a way that is inaccurate. That's the first thing. and doing it in a way that unnecessarily subordinates other people to you. So you're doing it for the sake of your own grandiosity and self-inflation and not for any productive pro-social purpose. And so for the people who have that concern, oh, I don't want to be self-promotional, I don't want to be arrogant, if you have that thought in your head, you're not going to be. You're not going to be.

47:35The single biggest myth about how women get on boards is that a seat was opened up for them. Ooh. Ooh, that's good. You have permission to go deeper. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with ShopPay converts up to 36 % higher than the competition.

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49:32Just go to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. I think a lot of times there's narrative around, especially between 2020 and 2023, that boards were increasing the size of their board to be able to add women. And yes, some did that. But I also think they did that because they have, again, it's very difficult to get off and on a public company board. So if you have a specific tenure, then adding a seat makes a lot of sense. And so if they were trying to diversify their board and adding a seat meant adding a woman, they did that.

50:09And I think that that was important. And it showcased that they were being inclusive, but it doesn't mean that that's why they secured that seat. Everybody who sits on a board has the merit to sit on a board. The issue is that they don't have the access. Right. Right. That's such a great point because it's the assumption of a lack of credibility. Right. That's that is so good. That is so good. Like there are only nine possible humans on the entire planet who could take this position. That's a great point. Yep. Okay. So one of your mottos is keep moving forward. So can you tell us about how holding onto that was powerful for you and motivating for you in a time where it was really difficult?

50:56Yeah. That comes from my father. I don't even know if he knows this, but he would always say, you know, anytime I was down or something didn't work out the right way or I was upset about something and I'm I'm a pretty emotional human being. I just, I know that about myself. I'm very self-aware. Like things really impact me. If something is happening, like it usually takes me down, but I have to sort of, I have to pull myself out of that, especially as an adult and for people who you're responsible for, like my children. So it has just been my motto. He'd always say to me, keep moving forward. Adelante, Heather.

51:33He'd say, like, keep going, keep going. And so I've just always thought that's the best way for me to live my life is to keep moving forward. That doesn't mean running over people or dismissing something that happened. It just means how do we move from here to here? Because we can't go backwards and we can't change something. And so how do you progress forward? And how do you continue moving yourself and others in the right direction? I love that. Great. What would you tell the version of yourself who hid her baby at work? Oh, yes, I did do this. And this was 2008. So this was not, you know, a long time ago.

52:15I mean, it is for some people listening out there. But I didn't tell anyone. So here's the thing. I left the Recording Academy after five and a half years, and I wanted to change my career and really go into PR and marketing. And a great friend of mine, Ron Roker, knew the regional West Coast manager of Edelman at the time, which was Gail Becker. She now runs Collie Power. She also led Edelman through major transitions. She was incredible. He was like, Gail's my friend. I'm going to reach out to her. He did me a solid and did that. And she just wrote me back and said, any friend of Ron is a friend of mine.

52:51So I was 30, almost 30, on the verge of being 30, changing my entire career and going into PR and marketing. and everybody that was working there, especially in my role as an account executive, which was much younger, you know, probably five, six years younger. And some of those that were in senior roles were even younger than me. And so I just knew that if I had shared that information, especially the way that we worked back then, which was around the clock, that I would get passed up for certain responsibilities and opportunities. So for a year, I didn't say anything. And then finally, somebody saw something on my phone and said, Well, who's that?

53:30And I said, Oh, that's my son. And I had become friends with her. And she said, You have a kid? Because I also looked really young. And, you know, and so it just became this what, why didn't you say anything? And, you know, and it helped me establish myself at Edelman for the first year. And I and it gave me more confidence to then share later. But I did feel that I couldn't share it immediately. because I didn't want to get looked over. Wow. See, I think especially for many men out there, that's something that they can't really relate to. Yeah, because men are seen as equipped and wonderful for having children and leaving early to help support them, whereas women are viewed as, oh, they have other responsibilities.

54:18Maybe they can't do the job. It's just a perception. Right, right. No, that's true. That is true. Okay, last one. Last one. So we want 50-50 board representation. And now the question is, is that more of a moral case or more of a business case? Definitely a business case. You need different perspectives in the room. And I think when we talk about 50-50, you know, not every board is going to have quality across the board. Sometimes that's tough. But we open the aperture in the conversation around gender, meaning have you thought about your board in a different way, thinking about the type of talent that you're bringing in?

55:09And if you want to be successful, I think you have to have different perspectives, expertise, diversity of thought, diversity of gender, sex, all of it, right? And it's everything that's part of the equation. The way that I look at a situation might be very different than another person who's been through a different experience, you know, or has had a different upbringing. And because their qualifications have gotten them on the board, yes, but then their perspective and their life experience also comes into play, which is really important, especially when you're leading diverse companies with different stakeholders and customers and employees, etc.

55:47And that is always eye-opening to me because even on our own board, you hear conversations or people sharing their opinion on something or have you considered XYZ. And it opens your mind up to a whole different range of opportunity and thought and ways to view things. And so it's a business case. It's why wouldn't you want the most diverse perspective around the table to be able to get the best results? And if you have everybody that's like you or that's a yes person, then that's a problem. Yeah. And it's in the numbers, you know? Yeah. Let's go into this. So lightning round over officially because now we have to go deeper.

56:34And then, Simone, I'll bring you in here too because I love your answer. I love your answer. And I think a lot of other people who are pushing toward the same outcome, when people hear them, it often sounds more morality based. Of course. And thinking about it from the lens of persuasion, I feel like a moral case is very persuasive to people who already agree with you. And the business case that you made is much more persuasive to people who have shareholder returns to be mindful of. So within the ranks of your organization and the movement in general, how do you all have the conversation about how to communicate this externally so people understand that this is a business case versus a moral case?

57:23Yeah, it's in the data. You know, the companies that have three or more women on their boards or gender balance boards tend to have more market capital. They perform better. You see it in the numbers. And so we report on that on an annual basis. And it's in our new gender diversity index report that went out on Tuesday. So it's there. You know, it's apparent that those are the companies that are performing best. And data, I think, speaks for itself, right? We always look at data first to tell that story and the business case around it. I think the other piece of it, too, is that, again, going back to the qualifications that it takes to serve on a board, especially a public company board and large private boards, they're looking for people who have built a career, a substantial career.

58:08So you're never going to get a board seat because you're not qualified. You need to be qualified. So if you're looking for qualified talent, it exists everywhere. It's not just in a particular gender. It's not in a particular race. It's everywhere. It's across the board. There's talent. There's incredible talent. And so if you're not opening up the aperture to find that talent, then you're doing yourself a disservice to two sits around the table. And I think companies that have thought about that from a global standpoint, again, perform better because they need that perspective sitting around the table.

58:42And so I would go back to one, the data, you know, what does the data say and why is this a business case? And the business case is in the performance of the company and its shareholders and ensuring that talent is around the room. And again, you know, making sure that people have an opportunity to do so, because if you have the qualifications, Kwame, to serve on a board, why should you get overlooked? Right. No, I agree. Yeah. I mean, we're not asking you to put talent on the board that isn't equipped. We're just saying, look at all the talent that is equipped out there. And have you thought about looking outside of your own network or your own, you know, where you just live and work.

59:24Right. No, it makes a lot of sense because I'm with you on the business case for diversity. I'm thinking, and this is just me putting on my negotiation consultant hat now too. I'm thinking about how do we make it in a way that conveyed this in a way that people really move. So think about the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of times people do things because other people are doing things and they're like, listen, I don't know why I'm doing this, but I don't want to look dumb. So I'm going to do it. And a lot of times that leads them to make bad decisions. Insert reference to, you know what, not going to take my shot, not going to shoot my shot.

59:59We don't need to, we don't need to shoot shots here. but anyways so think about this if we're watching a if we're seeing the a team being built for the nba we understand you don't need to understand basketball very well to know that people need to be tall to play in the nba but there are certain positions where you can be smaller certain positions where you're going to be bigger you have like a 12 team roster if we see a team put together a team of 100 short guards then we'd be like that's a dumb decision like it's is you're not morally incorrect for that but that like you seem to be incompetent in what you're doing because why in the world would you think this works versus kind of saying this is unfair you see what i'm saying i feel like for the gm they would be like listen people will crush me if i've got a team of 511 guards i need to have some big guys here you see yeah i I mean, that's such a great analogy.

1:00:56I mean, it really simplifies what we're saying here. You can't operate like that. That's not right. That's not you won't be successful. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think I do a lot of trainings for procurement organizations. This is hopefully no procurement organizations are listening because this one is a bit of a proprietary move. It's not a finishing move, but it chips away. Okay. So sometimes when there's like, like today, there's tariff, there are a lot of tariffs, there's a lot of global instability, fuel prices are going up, that legitimately hits a lot of companies. And as a result, they say, hey, listen, we need to up the price.

1:01:38And then for a lot of companies, they look at the news and they're like, hey, listen, guys, I think we can pretend like this hurts us too. And we can get this big organization to up their price. And so a lot of times procurement people feel like they're in a bind because they're saying, okay, my vendor says they're claiming hardship, but a lot of times it's BS, it's not true. And so I came up with this term called an empathetic insult. And so instead of saying, oh, you need to increase your prices because your prices went up. Okay, fine. It's okay. Well, actually, let's take a step back. So it sounds like you're having a really hard time fulfilling this contract.

1:02:16Do you think this is something that you can fulfill comfortably? Because if not, we can find somebody else who is not experiencing this kind of hardship. But they're like, listen, things aren't that bad. We're fine. Right? And I'm wondering if we can take some of that psychology where it's almost like, oh, you don't have women on your boards? Oh, okay. I'm not sure what it is that you're doing. I think most people will invest in other places because the statistics show that one is objectively better. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great way to think about it. You know, it's an interesting thing because we've been having a lot of conversations about how we continue to influence people sitting in the seat where they can actually make change, which typically the chair of the board and the non-gov chair are the two individuals that have the opportunity to say, are we searching for the right talent?

1:03:07And they're the ones that we've been trying to connect with our own 50 women to watch talent. But it's a really important point because they have to be the ones in that seat to raise their hands and say, are we sure that we don't have the capacity or we have looked everywhere that we need to look to be able to find the right talent? it so to your point it is having them flip that script a bit and to challenge that in a way that doesn't um you know make people you know you have to do it in the right way like you said you know that that sort of empathetic like insults of how how do i change your mindset on this without being rude but also like surfacing this you know so that we can have a conversation around it yes and And to be clear, I don't want to be obviously rude.

1:04:01Right. But I do want them to be like, wow, what's wrong with me that I can't get this done? I'm thinking about gender and just diversity in general. How do we turn it into like a status symbol? It's like, yeah, people are going to invest in this company because they actually have a roster that can get it done. Going back to the NBA analogy, we have a team of 5 '11s out here struggling. And yeah, I'm not going to bet on that team to win, but I'll probably bet on a team that seems to have a team that has a composite that's likely to succeed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed. I don't know. Yeah, we'll text back and forth on this.

1:04:40I'm riffing right now. No, I mean, I think that's an important point. And it is one that that's the responsibility of those two leaders on the board to bring up. If the CEO is not bringing it up, then it is important for the chair or the non-gov chair to voice that in a way that gets people to think about things differently. And there are a lot of leaders that are sitting in those roles that are doing that. I think that's something that we should also give credit to. You know, we recognize more than 290 S &P Global and Fortune 1000 companies in September who have 40 % women or more on their boards.

1:05:17And so there are companies that are still doing the right thing, ensuring that they're searching for talent in the right way. And they know that diversity is an advantage. It's a business advantage. Right. No, this is great. This is great. Okay, I could talk to you about this forever. I know. Simone, I know you've got thoughts. What's on your mind, man? I'm going to play the devil's advocate here because I come from Venezuela. you're Latina so you understand the situation in Venezuela and there is a word that you've been using which is the word right right people right things to do right so this is a word I struggle a lot with and I'll tell you why I had to I had to to escape from Venezuela I have to leave Venezuela I had to do it quickly because I was against the government in 2011 I was against the government so they they would go to the protests and take take pictures of you and then they they they found you and they would put you in a list the list was called TASCON list T-A-S-C-O-N so once you're in that list they're more picky with you in terms of taxes wars and everything you know they're like oh let me check your profile for everything so it becomes more and more difficult to live there so my country was not there for me anymore so uh but i decided to protest against the government at that moment and to go against what was happening there many of my friends said why are you fighting brother just relax go with the wave go with the wave so I had to go out of my country I lost my networking you know how important networking is I had to start from from zero I was lucky I found Kwame but I had to start from zero with no friends no one that could could believe or trust me and I didn't see my my grandma dying because I couldn't go back to my country I didn't go for study of work I I had to leave and I couldn't go back the sensation of not being able to go back to your country something that maybe your parents can tell you but it's like very hard so sometimes i go to bed and i think did i do the right thing because my friends are there with their networking with their wives houses and if they lose the job they just go to mom's couch and that's it so they have a pretty easy life i have a very difficult life they think that oh when you emigrate you you will have a good salary every everything will be better and and sometimes that's not the case sometimes it's more difficult i i'm here struggling to speak english so so some i for i don't know 10 years i was convinced that i did the right thing what was inside of my heart yeah but then i compare myself to my friends and i struggled to think that I did the right thing.

1:08:28They just don't say anything, but they're not in the task on list. So they are fine. And if we go to data, what is what you're talking about? They are happy. They have a successful life in Venezuela. And I did what I thought was right. But my life is a lot more difficult. So how do I know if I did right or not? It's such a great question. I appreciate you sharing all that with me. It's because I've never had to leave a country. I was born and raised here. And, you know, but to your point, my parents did do that. They can go back because they, you know, they didn't leave and any, they didn't escape.

1:09:09They essentially just wanted a better life and decided that they'd build it here. And, um, but it, you know, I think that goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning of the conversation is your values. And I think that your values are part of who you are. And so the reason that you decided to take that initiative was because you couldn't stand for it anymore. You know, I feel a lot of what you're describing now in this current administration, and I say this as a personal reflection and not necessarily anyone of any of the organization. But, you know, it's hard, you know, it's hard to not.

1:09:54If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with ShopPay converts up to 36 % higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy.

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1:11:46To fight for what's right, right? That's never an easy thing to do. I think we're doing it in a way at 50-50 to help contribute to the conversation. But I think there's so many other fights that we need to have, too, around what's happening here in the U.S. And so what I'll tell you just from hearing your story, I think that you would have not been happy living in a country like that, knowing that you were going against your own values. And so I live my life thinking, does this adhere to my moral values and also just my values as a human being and what I've grown up with and what I believe to be true and right?

1:12:27And I think ultimately that wins at the end of the day because I can sleep at night. And I don't know if you would have been happy in that situation. And I think you also have to look at it from a perspective of growth. You know, doing the right thing is not always the easiest path. You know, it's just not. But sometimes the reward on the end of it is so much better. And it might mean that that reward is not houses and wives and boats and this and that, but it might mean that it's comfort of knowing that you're living your life authentically in the way that you want to and the way that you feel is right for you.

1:13:03You know, and I would say you've been very successful at that in terms of finding Kwame and having a, you know, a great, a great job. And and it does take time. You know, this is not an easy like I know for my parents, it's not an easy country to sort of just come here and build a life. It takes a lot of perseverance and a lot of resilience. I didn't have to go through that. And I always say my parents fight is their fight. I lived a very sort of cookie cutter life that they put me in. And I'm very grateful for that. But I don't know everything that they went through, but I know that they worked, excuse my French, their asses off to make sure that we did have that cookie cutter life.

1:13:44And my dad was very, very committed to that. So I would only say to you, Simone, that I think that I, from my perspective, I think you would have not been happy if you would have had to keep your mouth shut and live a life that you didn't feel was authentic to you. Thank you so much for your answer. Yeah, great question. Yeah, it is a great question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's one of those near impossible calculations. Yeah, and it's hard, you know, it's hard. And I know Venezuela, you know, has amazing things about it, too. I have a one of our 50 women to watch is from Venezuela and she lives in Miami now, but she does a lot of work in Venezuela and she leads a lot of the government and political efforts there, too, because she's trying to change things.

1:14:27You know, if you ever want to have a conversation with her, her name's Leticia. She's wonderful. But she you know, it's it's not easy. I think it's it's always there's always a push and pull when you're you're leaving something that you love behind. And, you know, we have a lot of identity with where we were raised and where we grow up. And I can't imagine how difficult that's been for you. But at the same time, I think you've done the thing that is right for you. And I think a lot of people also probably look at that and they won't tell you, but they'll look at that as being very courageous and that they could have never done that.

1:15:03But you did. So, you know, I again, and using my motto, I would keep going. Yes, yes. And also just to put a weird bow on this narrative, too. Isn't it ironic that we have a Venezuelan and a child of Guyana coming in from the American Negotiation Institute? Well, yeah, but it's, but, but, but that's the country we're, we're, we're, we're made from, right? We all are so different and we have such different backgrounds and, and that's what makes America beautiful, I think. And it's, it's, you know, it's funny because it, it's the makeup of who we are. And so, but it's great. yeah no amazing yeah amazing and so let's because we oh this see i love talking to you this is what happens talking to you too now we're going long um let's let's end this with a resounding triumphant so heather say something epic about 50 50 women on boards rally the troops oh wow Wow.

1:16:08Yeah. Okay. Do I have anything epic? I don't even know if I wrote anything down. Write something down. No, this is in your soul. I know. To Alma, as some may say. Something epic. Okay. Yeah. But just, I think I'm just, I'm putting you on the spot. I'm not messing with you because we're friends. But when it, so essentially what would be the best way for people to get in touch and contribute and be part of this? Because this is nationwide. This is something that we want to continue to grow and get support behind. So what would be the best way for people to get in touch and join the movement? It's a great question.

1:16:45There's a number of different ways to get involved. And if you go to our website at 5050wob.org, you can find some of those opportunities. If you're an aspiring director, there's a roadmap there for you for how to build the the things that you need to be able to apply for a board position. And again, you have to bring the expertise to the table. You also have to do some work behind it, but we'll help you shape how you get there. And then the other piece of it is if you're a sitting director and you want to get involved and coach women, we have that opportunity at our events in person or virtually through our board readiness programs.

1:17:22And so we want directors to get involved and participate that way. That's really important. If you want to be a speaker, there's ways to do that too. We're also hosting non-gov dinners with our 50 Women to Watch, which is a group of women that have been selected because they're ready for public company board service. So connecting that talent to the directors in their region is very important for us so that we can put them together to build relationships so that they're meeting people that are in those decision-making seats to help build their network and their relationships for getting on a board.

1:17:52you know and there's a bunch of other ways volunteering is also an opportunity so if you want to volunteer in your own region and get involved in our regional events or if you want to even open up your own chapter and chair that chapter all of that exists so we're we sit in the center and we hope that everybody gets involved in this ecosystem of boards so that they can help support each other and it becomes sort of this 360 model where we continue to share the research and the data we help build aspiring board directors get them to the right place hopefully those directors are mentoring and then so on and so forth.

1:18:22And they secure a seat and come back and and give a little too. So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a long game, but you know, we're going to continue moving forward. Amazing. The 50, 50 women on boards must have an incredible CEO to be able to make all that happen. Incredible team too. We've got an incredible team. We've got, again, hundreds of volunteers. This is this, you know, this is a, this is a, this takes a village and a great board. So we're excited about the direction we're going in. And I hope we can help impact more progress, but also ensuring that boards are equipped with the right talent and that they can find it at VictorPussy.

1:19:02Incredible. Heather, thank you again for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you both. This has been so much fun. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever, and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Ahrensmele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work.

1:19:38With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the U.S. Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.