The Sixth Bureau Episode 4: The Duck Analogy

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2:15Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. A quick note. This is the fourth episode of our series. If you missed the first three, we recommend going back and listening in order. Thanks. who are we here to talk about? Shu Yanjun. Jordan and I are in Cincinnati, across the table from FBI Special Agent Bradley Hall. You've been hearing Bradley talk about Shu over the last couple episodes, but now you're going to hear from him in a different way. You're going to hear about his own involvement in this case, which begins when GE engineer David Jun comes back from his trip to China, the trip where he met Shu Yanjun.

2:56When we sat down with Bradley, we already knew how David had gotten on Shoe's radar, LinkedIn. But that didn't explain how David had gotten on the FBI's radar, or for that matter, how Shoe did. And that was something we really wanted to know. So how does this case begin for you? So when you guys flew here, I imagine you had digital tickets, right? Right. If you buy a ticket last minute, or you buy it in cash, or there's a number of different traits, the airlines are required to report that to TSA. And if you ever get a ticket, it has four S's on it. It means you've hit two or three of those criteria, which usually means someone's going to give you a secondary search.

3:37Well, when the GE engineer returned to the United States from his trip to China, he had these codes on his ticket. He was offered a secondary inspection. At which point they found cash on David John. A lot of cash. $16 ,000. That was not well explained. And that's a starting point for this case. And so, like, did Zhang buy his ticket with cash for the last minute? Or was there something else that led to him being secondary? Is there anything we can say about that? I actually don't know the answer to that question. Okay. Can we talk any more about the secondary? It seems like even if you had maybe known something before, is that kind of the first moment we can talk about in his case?

4:25I don't know if I can get any more detail than that. Okay. So he was secondary. He did have his cash, right? It sounds like this was the moment that kind of led to everything else that we then have. Is that roughly correct? No, let's just leave it at that for now, I think. Okay.

4:47So, Bradley was not going to tell us where this case started. And as much as we tried, we could never get anyone to tell us where this case started. We do know there were a bunch of hacks the FBI traced to the six bureau years before, which allowed them to see some of Hsu's colleagues' correspondence with each other. We also know that cases like this one can start with the NSA flagging some email address, or text or geotag or really any sort of digital footprint we're leaving behind all the time. And so we think it's likely that at least one of Shoe's email addresses was flagged before he started talking with David Jun.

5:20So when he did, the FBI noticed, got David's secondary at the airport, and found the cash. And when the lead about Shoe and David came in, it landed on Bradley Hall's desk. Because David Jun worked at GE Aviation, which was headquartered in Cincinnati. And Bradley was the FBI's only counterintelligence agent there. We are spy hunters. We spy on the spies. We track the people whose job it is to not be recognized, to not be identified, to blend in. A drug dealer sells drugs, right? That's ipso facto illegal. It's very black and white. Counterintelligence exists in the gray. These are people who are trained to blend in, who are trained to do things that look normal.

6:05So to find that piece of illegality is very, very difficult. Bradley is an intense guy. I mean, we talked to him for almost six hours. We ate lunch. He didn't. We drank coffee. He didn't. We sipped from our bottles of water. He basically didn't. Can I take some water? No, I'm fine. He's worked counterintelligence for his entire FBI career, and he chose it because someone told him it was the most challenging thing the Bureau does. If you have a GS-15 ASAC sitting in front of you saying the hardest thing that we do is counterintelligence, that piqued my interest. But spy hunting isn't always as badass as it sounds.

6:44For instance, the first thing Bradley had to do after getting this lead was go to David Young's employer and ask for their help. We went to GE and said, you know, we have a concern. We by no means have a full picture, but we would like you to work with us. The bureau came in and said, you guys have a problem. This is Art Cummings, who at the time was chief security officer for all of GE's businesses. This is your problem, but this is the opportunity. The opportunity to work together. To potentially expose this intelligence officer whose job is to steal IP from American companies. That's just a beautiful operation.

7:20Beautiful for the FBI, but not necessarily for GE. A lot of companies would have said, thank you very much. What's the person's name? Fired them and walked away from it. because the proposal raised serious risks. Helping an investigation that might lead to a trial would only draw attention to the fact that GE had had a security breach, which is a bad look when one of the major buyers of your jet engines is the U.S. military. I'm like, guys, are you prepared to expose this to DOD that you have billions of dollars of business with that shows that you were sloppy with their IP or with your IP? Buddy, that is a bad message all the way across the board.

8:00Plus, GE does a lot of business in China. Working with the FBI on a case that accused China of stealing trade secrets could jeopardize that business. But not working with the FBI came with its own risks. The fact that the MSS was targeting David Jun meant they were after some of GE's most sensitive information. He was one of about 10 to 12 engineers who worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blade encasements on the GE Engine System series. That's a very small group of people working on very important technology. Yes. GE is the only company in the world that has ever commercialized this technique.

8:42Many have tried and failed, but GE is the only one. They are the crown jewel of jet engines. I'd say the loss of their most advanced commercial jet engine is a billion dollars if they lost it. And there's future revenue. And there's just that generation. The next generation jet engine builds on that one. And then the next one on that one. And then the next one on that one. That's real. Art isn't at GE anymore. We tried repeatedly to talk to the company for the story, but they declined to comment each time. Ultimately, GE did decide to cooperate with the FBI. There were enough people, particularly in the C-suite, who were open to the idea of, OK, let's work with the FBI and see what we can do to protect ourselves.

9:33So GE was in. But Bradley still had to convince one more person to get on board. David Jun. Oh, I wanted to turn him. Use him to operate against the MSS. Bradley wanted to make David his double. A double is someone who represents himself or herself as cooperating with the Foreign Intelligence Service, but actually under the control of our service. And it is a very delicate kind of operation, because you have to persuade professional counterintelligence people on the other side that this is legitimate. As a double agent, David would help the FBI try to learn the details of who this MSS officer actually was, and maybe even help catch him.

10:21And it was a good moment to try. In 2017, Donald Trump had just taken office for the first time, and his administration was gung-ho about going after China. So there was support at the highest levels of government for nabbing an MSS officer. But actually pulling it off would be a real Hail Mary, because it had literally never happened before. There was a lot of, do you really think this is going to work? And your response was, I'm positive it's going to work. From Bloomberg News and iHeart Podcasts, this is The Sixth Bureau. I'm Jordan Robertson. And I'm Drake Bennett.

11:05Hey, everyone. It's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week, we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers. We're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

11:57From Brussels, I'm following the politics, policy and the people shaping the European Union right now. And from London, I'm looking at what all that means for markets, money and the wider economy. We've got reporters across Europe and around the globe feeding in as stories break. So whether it's geopolitics, energy, tech or markets, you're hearing it while it happens. It's smart, calm and to the point. And it fits into your morning. You can find new episodes of the Bloomberg Daybreak Europe podcast by 7am in Dublin or 8am in Brussels, Berlin and Paris. On Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

12:35The social media trend that's landing some Gen Zers in jail.

12:42The progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired. I'm going to take Francesco off the network entirely. The massive TikTok boycott against Target that makes no actual sense. I will continue getting stuff from Target, and I will continue to not pay for it. And the MAGA influencers whose trip to the White House ended in embarrassment. So refreshing to have a press secretary after the last few years who's both intelligent and articulate. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online, in media, and in politics with the Brad vs.

13:15Everyone podcast, hosted by me, Brad Palumbo. Every day of the week, I bring you on a wild ride through the most Delulu takes on the internet, criticizing the extremes of both sides from an independent perspective. Join in on the insanity and listen to the Brad vs. Everyone podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On November 1st, 2017, David Jun started his day like any other day. He woke up, he drove to work, and then, a few hours later, he was called into a meeting by GE Corporate Security. The engineer doesn't know exactly how much hot water he's in.

13:54This is Mike Riegel, an agent who was pulled in to work with Bradley on the case. He had like an interaction with, you know, GE security people. That was more like a general type discussion, kind of an opener. GE security asked David about some unusual activity they'd noticed. Specifically, the five sensitive files he'd transferred onto his personal computer before going to China. They literally walk out, they say, someone else wants to speak to you. And then we come in. I'm sure his stress level went up a hundredfold because obviously the guy's kind of in shock. He comes for like, kind of like a meeting with security guys and two FBI people come walking in.

14:37It was a room meant for 60, 70 people and we're sat at one tiny little corner of a table. We indicate that we are there for the same reason the GE was there. These files were moved. We've learned from GE that they went to China. That's a concern for us. Let's talk about it. And that's how the conversation starts. You know, you could have somebody that just unburdens himself and says, I know what you guys are here about. He didn't do that. No. They start by asking David about his trip to China, why he went, what he did, who he saw. You have to kind of eat this steak in small bites. David gives them a partial story.

15:17He went to a wedding. He went to a class reunion. He visited family back in the provinces, and then he flew home. He leaves out one thing, his talk in Nanjing at the university. So Bradley and Mike remind him. We started talking about the fact that he had done a presentation without talking to GE. His brain is thinking, let me think of a way to get out of this. Can I think of a way to get out of this? OK, let me give a different version of that. I gave a talk, but it's not on important stuff. But Bradley and Mike already know exactly what GE files David took with him to China. Here's the file that you download on March the 27th.

15:59And here's the image that has GE proprietary on it that you cropped out when you put in your PowerPoint. Oops, they know about that. They've got that PowerPoint. There was a lot of I forgot to mentions. Then they ask him about all the cash he came back with. He lies about the amount and says it was repayment for a loan. I call it progressive truth-telling. I let them tell the lie, and then I go back and I counter it, point by point. I had the bank records that showed where he'd put the$16 ,000 in cash. I'm going to show you 10 ways past Sunday that I know what day you put the money in, what you're counting on.

16:35He's like, don't play, right? Just, I know. So he's changing over time to the point where he emotionally just can't do it anymore. Like, you could watch the realization wash over him that, oh, this is more than just I downloaded some files I shouldn't have. This is now something else. The questions keep coming, and there doesn't seem to be any escape. When David gets hungry, Bradley and Mike eat with him. When he has to go to the bathroom, they go with him. The walls were closing in. It's a voluntary interview, and he needs to know during a voluntary interview that it's very important that he can leave.

17:20Wasn't his car being towed? He couldn't drive away. Well, so there's, I mean, being free to leave and having some logistical issues are two different things, right? The logistical issues Mike is referring to looks something like this. While the FBI is talking to David, his phone is confiscated, his car is seized from the GE parking lot, and his house is searched. Bradley hands him a phone so he can call his wife. They tell him to put her on speaker and to speak in English. David tells her not to go home. Because the FBI had just kicked in their back door. It's a short call. He hangs up and the questioning continues.

18:01So this goes on for a long time to the point that he kind of, I remember him breaking down. There's like a slumping of the shoulders. There's, you know, an audible exhale where they go from that person who thinks they're walking out of the room that day to somebody who realizes their life has fundamentally changed. We go from, you know, the proper engineer who sits up with his hands on the table. We start getting the lean back for the lies. And then by the end, you know, he's slumped down in the chair right before he actually, you know, starts to tear up. Like he started crying. And finally telling the whole story.

18:41He gives us as much as he could remember. David acknowledges that he knew something was fishy about the cash he was handed after his talk. He eventually called it dark money, that he had known he had received dark money from someone in China. So deep down, maybe not as he was initially given the presentation, but after the fact, that realization was there that he knew that it was dark money. He may not have known it was the MSS specifically, but at this point, you'd be hard-pressed to be ignorant to that type of thing happening. And yet, Bradley and Mike couldn't help but empathize a little. Why being invited to share his expertise at this prestigious university in the country where he grew up was so appealing to David.

19:23he came from a very rural village. He literally was the son of a pig farmer. Like, he grew up on dirt floors. He was the first person, not only in his family, but from his village to go to college. He was one of about 10 to 12 engineers who worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blade encasements. And frankly, this was a chance for him to brag about it. I know the secret sauce. I'm one of very few people can do it. So there was an ego part to it, right? And I understand that. I understand that motivation that this guy basically is like, I'm proud of my work. I like what I do. I'm excited about this.

20:00The MSS preyed on people that want to talk about what they do because they're proud of it. They're excited about it. They find it interesting. It's like, hey, we'd really like to hear about this. This sounds like great stuff. Would you like to come give a talk about this? Is that ego? Yes, I guess it kind of is. But it's human. Yeah.

20:26David was suspended without pay and eventually let go. But unemployment wasn't the worst thing he was facing. He could see possible prison time for violating export control laws and for lying to federal agents. Or he could cooperate. You say, OK, there is a path forward. And you start to talk very gently about what that path can look like. and that hopefully, at the end, will improve their position, vice where it is right now, which is pretty bad. We couched it like this. You did wrong. You know you did wrong. You lied to me. You kept lying to me. You finally told me the truth. But you didn't set off to do this.

21:08They came to you. So how about we go get them? They told him to sleep on it. It had been a long day. A really long day. I was exhausted. You know, the interview was hours. I can't remember the exact number. For some reason, seven sticks in my brain, but it's hours long. Seven hours and 42 minutes. When it was done, Bradley and Mike drove David home because he had no car or phone. What was that ride like? Quiet.

21:45You're hearing only from Bradley and Mike here because, as we said in the last episode, we tried really hard to talk to David Jun, but he wouldn't talk to us. We didn't get to hear from him directly what that day and night was like for him and how he went about weighing his options. Agreeing to be a double would be a huge risk for David. He'd be going up against the powerful intelligence apparatus of China, the country where he was born and raised, and still had family. He had good reason to say no. But it was that or those potential charges and prison time. So he agreed to cooperate. The next day, he got a lawyer and signed a non-prosecution agreement saying that no charges would be brought against him in return for working with the FBI.

22:32It was time to go spy hunting.

22:45This is Jane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week, we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers, we're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Evidence-wise, we had virtually no evidence. In 1995, Detective Tony Richardson was trying to figure out who killed a fellow officer.

23:23The case comes down to who is believed and who is ignored. Oh my goodness, we did convict an innocent man. I'm Beth Shelburne from Lava for Good Podcasts. This is Ear Witness. Listen to Ear Witness on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

24:06whose trip to the White House ended in embarrassment. So refreshing to have a press secretary after the last few years who's both intelligent and articulate. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online, in media, and in politics with the Brad vs. Everyone podcast, hosted by me, Brad Palumbo. Every day of the week, I bring you on a wild ride through the most Delulu takes on the internet, criticizing the extremes of both sides from an independent perspective. Join in on the insanity and listen to the Brad vs.

24:39Everyone podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. With David on board, the FBI made their first move. Under Bradley's direction, David got back in touch with his contacts in Nanjing. But he couldn't come on too strong. You can't, like, get on there and say, I've got a big laptop and it's ready to go, and guess what? I want$5 million, and I want it in an offshore account, and here's the number. Right, he's immediately going to say, what the, right, this is not for real. This is one of those FBI dorks, right? Right. So they crafted a different kind of message to the person from NUAA who had first invited David to come give a talk, Chen Feng.