Die, Workwear! - Derek and Peter AMA - Vol 3

0:00Hello everyone, this is the third of Dye Workwear's quarterly AMA episodes sponsored by Bezel. Bezel is the trusted marketplace to browse and sell luxury watches with full authentication on every transaction, meaning every listing is reviewed and when sold, every watch is verified in-house. In other words, if you're a buyer or a seller, you get a real human to help you. Shipments are insured, tracking is provided, every step is carefully considered. And to assist you in the process, the platform brings together verified listings, high quality imagery, and expert reviews so users know exactly what they're getting.

0:39No uncertainty. No guesswork. It's a straightforward approach to watch collecting all in one place. So explore more at GetBezil.com. Thanks to Bezel for supporting the show. And now we'll begin. Hey, Derek. How you doing? Hey, how's it going, Peter? It's good. It's been a warm summer for San Francisco. Yeah, I mean, our summers are not as warm as the rest of the country, but it gets into the 70s. And we're sweltering. We're dying. We're melting. We can barely stand it. I'm practically in my underwear. So every three months, we've been doing these AMAs. There are public episodes for our podcast.

1:19And people within our Slack community pose the questions. And I've collated. There were a ton of questions. Were there more this time than the last time? It seems like the number of questions grows. So I've kind of collated them and then sorted them into general topics that we can tackle. Nice. Thanks for doing that. And so some of the questions that people asked most frequently was, can we recommend some fabrics for different types of garments? Okay. Mainly for listeners who use custom tailors. And a big one was, what do you recommend for a navy sport coat? Ooh. For me, it depends. I used to have two sport coats.

1:55I had a spring summer one and I had a fall winter one. Basically the same thing. One was just in a beefier flannel and then I grew out of them. And so now I have one sport coat, but I don't recommend this hopsack. And I'll tell you why. This hopsack is from Morehouse, which is really popular. It's extremely soft, but because of the weave, it's very prone to getting caught on things, which is what you do have to understand with hopsack because it is a relatively loose weave. and you have an over and under, depending on who makes it, it can be either very prone to getting pills. And when I say pills, I don't mean little balls of threads like it happens on sweaters.

2:37Just saying you're getting snagged. They get snagged. It's like a grenadine. Grenadine time. Exactly. It's like a grenadine. So Morehouse is great. It's 16 ounces. It's wonderful for San Francisco. It's not a spring summer sport coat. If I were to get another one for fall winter instead of Morehouse, I would get the Spring Ram 16 ounce. They have two. They have a dark, almost black navy, and then they have a slightly lighter navy. I favor the slightly lighter navy. And they have very interesting weaves. They're both kind of basket weavy, but they're bulletproof. Spring Ram is just a fantastic fabric, and it still breathes.

3:15So even though it is 16 ounces, which is very heavy, if you hold it up to the light, you can see through it. The other one, if I was living in a very hot climate, then I would recommend the Finn Maresco, which is basically their Moclino. In fact, if you go to the Finn Maresco book, just scroll down until you see Moclino. That's the one. And that's much more breathable. And that is, I mean, Moclino, from what I understand, is kind of a catch-all for that kind of a weave. I mean, Moclino is going to have the same problems that you described. It's going to be prone to catching on things. Does yours catch?

3:45I mean, I live a very soft lifestyle. so there's nothing that I can catch against. You don't have the hordes of fans clawing at your Macalino sport coat. I'm not leaning against like a brick wall or something. Answer a question about fabrics. Yeah, I when I thought of this question, when I was thinking of fabrics for a Navy sport coat, I thought if you are only going to have one I would first check Holland Sherry's Mesh and Hopsack Blazers book. Kind of light though, aren't they? They're kind of light, but... Like 8-9? No, no, they have things in like 10, 12, somewhere around there. Oh, okay. Like a mid-weight.

4:21I do like that book because it's got highs and lows, it's got variations. Yes. So it doesn't look like an orphan sport coat. Right. To me, if you're getting a Navy sport coat, it's really good to go for something with texture. And Holland Sherry's Mesh and Hopsack Blazers book has a lot of fabrics with texture. Yeah. I would also, again, if you're only going to get one, then I would suggest a mock lino or a similar weave. Okay. It is true that it's going to be prone to catching on things, but just don't lean against brick wall or something. If you're sitting against office chairs and couches and whatnot, I think you'll be fine.

4:56Yeah, I mean, I don't wear mine often, and it's already gotten snagged. It's a luxury fabric. It's much softer than Moccalino, than Spring Ram. I would say it's more along the lines of the Harrisons. Okay. So it's a loose weave. It feels comfortable. The ones that I recommended are very hardy. Spring Ram is super hardy. It's bulletproof. Finn Maresco also three or four ply, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. For a Mocklino, I would check Hardisfield Fine Worsted. Their Menace book has Mocklinos. Harrison's of Edinburgh, their Smith's book also has a Mocklino. As you noted, Harrison's Spring Ram has something in there they call stitched hopsack.

5:32Yes. Which is basically similar to this kind of like textured hopsack Mocklino kind of fabric. If you are looking for something in a cooler climate, I would check out Holland and Sherry has a cashmere doe skin and Hainsworth has a wool doe skin. And doe skin is kind of like a similar to kind of like a moleskin or flannel. It's kind of like a napped fabric, but it has enough texture where no one will mistake it as an orphan suit jacket. And then if you live in a very cold climate, then Fox has like a 16 or 18 ounce surge that is very heavy. surge almost doesn't look sport coat i mean i know it's the classic yeah sport coat coat fabric but it looks the twill just it's not that standouty enough it's not as textured right but the the fox surge is heavier and matte and i think has a has a heavier rib that works still if you're only going to get one though i would i would offer a spring summer version or the holland cherry uh mesh and hopsack lasers okay the next person asks i'm going to wear um a double-breasted green suit in the South, the American South.

6:38I'll be going to events. Can you recommend a fabric for something like that? Oh, I mean, if you're in the South, it's going to be really tough. I still would recommend Spring Ram's 12 ounce if you can stand it. They have a really nice dark green, like a gray green. And you really can't tell that it's green in an artificial light. You can tell if you're outside, but it's a really nice, very, it's subtle. It's elegant. It's not green. Yeah. It doesn't stand out. It doesn't shout at you. It whispers. But if that's too much and that's totally understandable, I can recommend two others. I can recommend Iska, which is beautiful.

7:13Both of us really like that. But it's not a - That's also Harrison's of Edinburgh. Also Harrison's of Edinburgh. So if you look at that suit and the only thing that I have against it is that it's going to run a little casual because it's 55 linen, 45 wool. So it's not going to be super crisp. It's not going to rumple like a heavy linen because it's only eight ounces. but it is going to have a little bit of spring back. It's a great fabric. It is a relinous fabric. Definitely look at that. But if you want a stiffer suit, like a very serious crisp suit, then do try the Cape Kid book. That is also from Harrison's and that's 60 % mohair, 40 % wool.

7:52My only thing with that is make sure that it gets tailored a little on the roomy side because mohair can be really stiff. It doesn't have the spring back that wool does. It does have some wool in there, 40%, but it's got to feel a little stiffer. Yeah, if you get a mohair blend suit that's too slim, it's going to split in the pants when you bend over. I would add to that Huddersfield Fine Worsted Super Gabbiting, which is like a silky kind of twill. What's the weight on that? 12, 13 ounces, somewhere around there. I would recommend against the 8-ounce Huddersfield. I have that. In the Super Gabb?

8:25In the Super Gabb. Yeah. And it's just kind of sad. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Super Lightweight Gabs. Tailors hate gab because it's a very slippery fabric that's hard to tailor. Yeah. So you may be giving your tailor a bit of a headache by handing them Huddersfield Fine Worcester Super Gab. But isn't Gabardine a really tight, tight weave? This guy's wearing it in the South. He's going to die. It is. Yeah. It is a very tight weave. And it's 12 ounces. Yeah. Just run. When you're outside, run to the indoor event so you get air conditioning. Yeah. It does look slick. You have one in that. Yeah. I have one.

8:55I like it. You know, you're right. In the American South, I don't know. Just drive your car straight into the building. Right. You know, don't be upset. From the house to the car. Hold your breath from the car to the building. Yeah. Next person says, if you get five tweed sport coats starting from scratch, what would you get? What fabrics would you recommend? Man, that was really tough because there's so many good tweed fabrics. But I had to narrow it down to five. So the one that I would get, and I still have it, is from Porter and Harding Glenroyal book. It's the true Prince of Wales fabric.

9:30That is, whoa, you like jumping deep. Bam. That's like... The OG. I feel like if I see someone with that, I assume they have like 20 tweed sparkles at home. It is bold. So the true Prince of Wales, and then this was debated for a long time. Oh, man, this is... Let's get into the weed, shall we? So the true Prince of Wales, everyone's like, oh, Prince of Wales is just any Glenn plaid. No, no, no. The true Prince of Wales is a brown and cream Glenn check with a blue over check. And it is loud. On the border of the blind check. Yeah, it's not just, it doesn't run in the middle, it runs on the border.

10:06Normally when you think of a Prince of Wales, you think of blue over check running in the middle. Right, exactly. See, see, see, that's very specific things. And then I had a discussion once with our friend Vox online and he said, don't get the cashmere one because it has an extra dog tooth. So there are people that are judging you. That will count your dog teeth. And we'll get out the micrometer and we'll make sure that it's the correct one. But that's great. And I love it. It is a tweed, but it's not super scratchy. It's not super dense either. So it's a comfortable fabric. And I love that. I wear it with jeans.

10:43You could wear it with cream flannel or cream whip cord. I would not recommend spectator shoes with that unless you really want to go super dandy all the way. Otherwise, just go a shade darker because it's kind of a, it's a shade that doesn't complement too much, but it goes great with jeans. The second one is from Yorkshire Fabric. So Yorkshire Fabric is a jobber. And by that, I mean, it's a place that gets cut lengths from other makers. And I have two from there that I really, really like. One is a brown, dark brown, green, and tan dog tooth check. I like this one because it's very muted. There's a similar one that Drake's used, which is also on this website.

11:28And I'll include that in the show notes. It's much darker though. This is very muted. It's, I mean, if you look at it from a distance, it just looks mid-brown, but it's got a really nice orange overcheck, green overcheck, but it's not so bold and it's a nice mid-brown. That is a Shetland. So it's going to, it is heavy. It's 18 ounces, but it's going to feel like a sweater. Okay. It's got to feel like a warm cozy. These are like kind of in the deep end for tweets, I feel. It's kind of a connoisseur's pick. But it's muted. It's not too crazy. The first one was very crazy. It's kind of crazy. The first one, the original Prince of Wales, that's bold.

12:06This one is much more muted. Okay. The third one is also from Yorkshire Fabrics. It's brown with a green and red Czech tweet. This was also in Drake's. Yes. Drake's used this. I'd like to think they stole it from me because I had mine made first. And I swiftly grew out of it because back then I was tailoring things a little too slim. But it's also very muted. So there is, if you zoom in, the check is, it's very big, but because it's busy, it doesn't read too loud. So this is much tamer than the Prince of Wales check. The fourth one is a herringbone, just a gray herringbone, not Harris Tweed. So as much as Harris Tweed is the OG, it's scratchy.

12:50A Shetland is going to be much softer. It's going to be much more comfortable. It is going to bag a little bit, but I kind of like that about tweed sport coats. I like them to be not very stiff. I like them to feel comfortable. And this is the classic, this is the classic herringbone. I would not, if you are so inclined to do a herringbone jacket similar to Ralph Lauren's herringbone that has the bellows pockets, don't use this fabric. That needs to be a stiffer fabric because the bellows pockets will just bag out and not look very good. And finally, the fifth one is kind of a tie. So I have a Holland and Sherry tweed from their Sherry tweed book.

13:28So there are two from the Sherry tweed book. I had the first one and I grew out of it. I'm really bummed out about it. But Sherry tweed is, it's a faux tweed. It's not really a tweed and it's relatively light. It's extremely soft. Yeah, it's a very soft tweed. It's an Italian version of an English tweed. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's not hairy. It's not scratchy. It's more like flannel. Yeah. But it is very comfortable. These two, which are sold out because these are probably several years old. I think I got this one a long, long time ago. And then the other one is a sherry tweed. But again, it's a little bolder.

14:03It's got a little bit of a brighter overcheck. These two are going to both be in the show notes, but I like it because it's brown with a blue overcheck. So you can wear this easily with jeans. You can also wear this easily with wintry gray flannels with whip cords. Brown and blue are just great fabrics to have as a sport coat. And these two are equally as good. But if you run a little more bold, I would get the second one. Can I share with you my framework of how to think of tweeds if you're building a collection of them? Oh, yeah. Okay. So my theory of it is that when people first start buying sport coats and their interest in tweeds, they'll think about things like, oh, there's the Glenn Check pattern, there's the Houndstooth pattern, and there's the windowpane pattern.

14:47They go along collecting these things. I think that the better way, especially if you have a collection of five tweeds, a better way to go about it is to think of two parameters. One is the, or three parameters. One is the color, brown, green, gray, so on and so forth. Then the next is the shade of the fabric, the shade of the color. So to me... Like luminance, lightness to darkness? Yes. So to me, a light brown tweed will serve a different purpose in a wardrobe than a dark brown tweed. Those would do two different things, even if they're in the same pattern. True. So if you have a light brown herringbone tweed, that will be a different tweed in my mind than a dark brown herringbone tweed.

15:27What are the differences between a light and a dark? Well, partly what pants you can pair them with. What pants you can pair them with, yeah. And sometimes, for example, I think darker colors look better in the evening. If you have a, you know, kind of like a light brown tweed, to me, that's an afternoon jacket. And if you're going for something in the evening, a darker color will look a little bit more elegant. Yeah, makes sense. The other thing to consider is the intensity of the pattern. So some fabrics are not patterned at all. You can just have a plain brown tweed. And then you can have something with like a, let's say, just like a light dog tooth with not a lot of contrast.

16:00And then you can have like a very loud gun club. I have a feeling all of your picks are going to be very conservative. Yes. So my first pick is super conservative. One is a brown Donegal. And I would go to Malloy & Sons if you want like a true kind of Irish Donegal Tweed. Holland Sherry also has something a little bit softer if you want to check there. The Sherry Tweed or a different book? I think it might be in the Sherry Tweed. We'll have a link in the show notes. People can check out. The idea of a Donegal to me is that a Donegal is somehow both a solid and a pattern at the same time, such that there are flecks to add visual interest if you're just wearing it with like a light blue Oxford button-down and gray flannel trousers.

16:42But if you're wearing also a patterned, let's say a striped shirt and a patterned tie, a Donegal will never clash with that because... It's true. Well, assuming you're not going to wear a Donegal tie or like a Donegal shirt, right? So most likely, hopefully... What about all three? Hopefully you're wearing a Donegal tweed jacket and like an Oxford button-down and striped or solid and then like a plain rep stripe or something. Yeah. To me, a Donegal is really useful in the sense that it's something that you can wear with anything. The next one I would consider is a gray tweed. I really like the one from Fox Brothers.

17:16They have Fox Tweed in there and they have one that's a Glencheck. It's in a slightly darker charcoal-ish color without being full charcoal. A gray tweed to me is really nice in the evening. Again, just in the idea that black is a little bit more of a formal color than brown. Is the Glenn Check very muted? I think I know which one you're talking about. It is pretty muted. Yeah, like from a distance, it just looks solid. No, I wouldn't say it looks solid, but it's just two... It might be a black yarn and a mid-gray yarn. Oh, okay. And it is pretty muted. I think the problem with getting a gray tweed sport coat, or even a gray sport coat in general, sometimes the color does not contrast well with gray trousers, which should be a staple in your wardrobe.

17:57But the Fox Tweed, they have a gray in there that we'll have a link in the show notes that does really well against almost all gray trousers. Gotcha. And then for the next ones, I would either get two more brown tweeds and then an olive tweed or just go three more brown tweeds. You don't have any links to the two other brown tweeds? Yes. No, I have links. I have something, two options from WBuild. They have a basic lens check and also a gun club. I'll have links in the show notes to me again the Gun Club is a very intense pattern which is going to be different from something like a basic Lund Check.

18:34Unless all the colors in the dog tooth are muted. Yes. Like the one that I chose because the dog tooth can be like whoa! Right. Crazy. But if they're all relatively muted in the same color family then Lovett also has three main stock books. Kirkton is the one that I think should be in my opinion the first one to look at because it's a mid-weight, I think it's a 14-ounce fabric, and it still has a tweedy character that's not prevalent in their lighter-weight tweeds. Okay. Their Lovett-Kirkton's 523 fabric and their 502 fabric, we'll have links in the show notes, are two of the fabrics in that book that I think work really well.

19:10And one of those is a tan, which will give you some versatility in a wardrobe that's mainly full of mid-to-dark brown tweeds. Okay, nice. The next one is someone who wants fabric recommendations for a Balmacon overcoat that they can wear with sweater and jeans. What do you suggest? Well, I would check out fabrics that are 18 ounces or heavier. Yeah, I would personally go 21 or heavier. Yeah, I was, yeah. I mean, depending on your ability to put up with all of that fabric weighing upon your shoulders. I personally like 22 ounces, but technically speaking, I think 18 ounces is where it begins. And I'm of two minds.

19:53So I like very loose weaves when it comes to Balmacons. It's not a sooty or a stout formal kind of overcoat. So I would make sure that it runs a little bit on the fuzzy, chunky side. So if you go to Harrison's Classic Coatings collection, they have several. That's under the W. Bill book. So go to the W. Bill book and in their Classic Coatings collection, all of these are 18 ounces and above. Yeah. Most of them are 22 and above. But they have several different types of herringbones. I prefer the ones that are chunkier. They have finer ones, which are fine. But I don't think they do well as an overcoat.

20:35As a Balmacon, I should say. Maybe as a polo coat. Yeah. Or something a little more formal. But as a Balmacon, I think you can go chunky. I like the herringbone, but you can also do the barleycorn. Yeah. It's a really nice one that no one really does. They have one in gray. They have one in charcoal. They have just a straight twill. They have like a basket weave. So they have a lot of different kinds. But I would say, me personally, I would go for something a little chunkier, a little loosely woven so that it lends itself better to that type of overcoat. Yeah. I would add I agree with W. Bill Classic Coatings I would add Marling and Evans they do some overcoatings in an undyed wool so it's the natural colors of the sheet oh nice do they and some of them are this really loud check I've seen oh yeah Sedge McCarthy had an overcoat made in that and I thought it looked great oh yeah I know which one you're talking about it's a big it's a big check it's a very loud check very loud check it's like dark brown and lighter brown yes yeah that's a great one so that's a Marling and Evans overcoat we'll have a link in the show notes I think that works really well yeah it does VBC's Hope Collection and also Archive Overcoat Collection has some good fabrics in there if you want something a little bit softer, a little bit more modern.

21:48Holland & Sherry also has some really good overcoatings. We'll have a link in the show notes. You know, I think of W. Beale Classic Coatings and Marling & Evans as like real British, stout, heavy, classic fabrics. VBC's and Holland & Sherry's a little bit softer, a little bit more modernized. If you want to go even more old school, love it. their Ettrick book is like bulletproof. Yeah. That's like a, that's like a 21 ounce fabric. And Yasuto Kamoshita used a fabric from the Ettrick book for a Paul Stewart's Balmacon that he made for Paul Stewart Japan. The thing about Lovett's fabrics is that they are unapologically old school Scottish.

22:30So they're like, you have to really love that kind of like old school look, which I do. But it is basically the opposite of VBC. And then if you really want to splurge, Harrison also has cashmere overcoatings. But for a Balmicon? Oh, that's good. Yeah, I don't know. I would not. Yeah, I guess a Balmicon, I do think of like a really heavy. Yeah, it's like a sporty. I mean, you can. But I would say if you're going to go cashmere, I would get an Ulster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The argument for using these finer, more expensive fabrics, any of the Harrison's cashmere fabrics are obviously more expensive than their wool.

23:08But the argument for it is that the tailor is going to charge you the same for their labor, regardless if you use a cotton fabric or cashmere fabric. Okay. So if you're buying, if you're using a really good tailor and you're buying bespoke, there could be a case made of using cashmere. But I agree with you, Balmacon, I do think of as a very tweedy, heavy fabric. The last fabric-related question is someone who wants to know, what is your favorite spring-summer book and your favorite fall-winter fabric book? That's really hard because I have favorites all over the place. So it's hard to choose just one.

23:43My favorite flannels are Minnis, specifically the 14-ounce and above. but Menace, of the different types of flannels there are, Menace is, it used to be described on the forum as cardboardy, which I don't think it is. It's flannel. It's soft. But of the flannels, it's the one that does the better job at keeping a crease. Lady San Felice is from BBC and that's 12 ounces. That is the lightest and it is super soft, but it bags just by looking at it. It's great. I have a suit in that, but it's not my favorite. So if you're looking for flannels, I would check out Huddersfield Menace 14 ounce and above.

24:23They have fantastic flannels. Also in the wintertime for serious suits, I like Japers 4 and 6 ply. I just had a navy suit from Assisi in a 6 ply and it's amazing. It hangs like iron. It's still, it feels heavy. Like you lift up the jacket and you're like, this is a heavy, this is a beefy jacket. But because of the weave, it just allows the air to come through. It's very porous and it's very comfortable to wear. So for serious suits, I would look at drapers four and six ply. That's in their Ascot collection. And for summer, it's kind of tough. I'm just going with ones that I have experience with.

24:58Like I've never made a suit from the Iska book. I would like to. It's on my list, but I don't have any experience with it. So I don't know. But for W. Bill, linens in the summer, tweeds in the winter. It's just the W. Bill linens book. That's all 12 ounce. If you look in their Mercolaire book, they do have heavier linens, about 15, 16 ounces. But that's pushing most people's limits. It's kind of crazy. It is kind of crazy. I had a suit, and again, I grew out of it. But I really like that linen. I would not hesitate to get a 16-ounce linen suit again. I believe Art Dulin, they have a lighter and a heavier weight linen.

25:34And the heavier weight is like 16 ounces. Yeah. And it feels great. Yeah. I'll go super simple. for spring summer, I really like W. Bill Linens for suits. Yeah. And I also like Draper's Ascot four-plies for trousers. Yeah. For fall, winter, I would go W. Bill Tweeds for a sport coat. And I really like Holland Sherry's new classics book for trousers. They have a lot of whip cords and calvary twirls in there. Ah, nice. I prefer those a little bit more than flannel, but I agree, Minus Flannel, Fox Brothers, you know, Harrison's of Edinburgh, all of them have good flannels for trousers. The next section is tailors and mistakes.

26:16And the first question under that section is, what mistakes have you made while ordering bespoke? Why didn't the garment turn out the way you expected? Which garments did turn out as expected, but didn't really get worn anyway? And why? What did you personally take away from these experiences? Man, I've got many mistakes. Many, many mistakes. But initially when I started, things were too tight and I quickly grew out of them. And to be fair, it wasn't my fault. I just put on weight. But a big thing was, for example, not knowing what I would be doing in the suit. For example, that the suit was, it fit perfectly, but I didn't think about, oh, I'm putting a cell phone in my interior pocket and now it throws everything off.

26:54Maybe I should add a little bit more room in the chest next time. Also, I'm not going to lie, I've made things that are too loose, maybe in the thigh, maybe a little bit too big in the leg. And I'm Like, actually, I should probably take that in the next time. In jackets, I was really a fan initially of having a clean back. But depending on the fabric, if it's too tight, then you're not going to be able to raise your arm at all. You're just going to look like a mannequin. So I learned those things early on. The wrong fabric, I've gotten linen fabric that wasn't tightly woven. And in a suit, it didn't work out so well.

27:29Like a mercilair, depending on the mercilair fabric, it's beautiful for a sport coat. but not so much for a suit. Another one is Burra Bay from Harrison's. That's a Shetland and I made trousers out of that. And it's a wonderful fabric. It keeps a crease really nicely, but it bags because it's Shetland. Yeah. Any loosely woven fabric is not going to do well as trousers. And then just learning my own preferences. Like I don't like sport coats that are too crispy. I'd rather have them soft like a cardigan. So now I almost exclusively get sport coats in Shetland tweeds. with suits I like things to be very crispy so if I'm getting a tweed suit instead of getting thorn proof I'm going for heart twist because it's a crisper tweed so these are just some of the things nothing devastating but learning from those mistakes I wish I had known those things before going into it I'll give you two of mine why didn't the garment turn out the way you expected the two ones that come to mind is I ordered some I ordered a pair of shoes from George Cleverley and a tweed sport coat from Anderson and Shepard.

28:32Neither of those orders turned out the way that I liked. The Cleverley shoes didn't fit and I didn't like the way that they looked at the end. It's a long story. And then the Anderson and Shepard sport coat did not have the fit and the drape that I expected from Anderson and Shepard. Really? I mean, Anderson and Shepard is known for having that. That's a whole nother story. I don't want to take up too much of this pod with these kind of backstories. But the thing that I took away from that is I ordered those because Anand Shepard is like the mothership for people who love drape cut. And George Cleverley is obviously famous for dressing all sorts of people.

29:05And both of those firms came highly recommended to me by people whose opinion I really look up to. And have used them before? And have used them before. And the thing that I learned from that is that the label inside your garment or the name outside of the door doesn't really mean anything. What matters is the people whose hands are going to be touching your garment. So I learned from that that if somebody says, oh, I really love the Anderson Shepard sport coat that I ordered in the 1980s, you should go to them. Well, the guy who cut that Anderson Shepard sport coat probably died. May not work there anymore.

29:38May not work there anymore. Not only did the person who cut that fabric and draft that pattern and cut the fabric no longer work or possibly have been passed on, but the tailors who made the garment, you know, sewing the garment, the outworkers, those people may be gone. So the thing that I learned from that is pay attention really to the names of the people whose hands are touching your garment, not necessarily the name of the label, which I think of it like a sports team. You know, the Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan is a different team than, you know, whatever the Bulls are today. So think of the people.

30:13The other one, the garments that turned out as they should have, but didn't get worn very much, I think of two experiences. One is a steed sport coat that I bought using a tweed. And then a pair of trousers that I got from Taylor's Keep using a blue fabric. Both of them had the same issue. The tweed fabric that I chose for the steed sport coat had a yellow cast that I then found hard to wear with the trousers in my wardrobe. And then the blue trousers that I got from Taylor's Keep, I chose that fabric thinking it was navy because I was looking in the shop. And then they seemed navy during the fittings.

30:49They seemed navy throughout my whole ordering process. But then when I finally got them in hand and walked out the store. They're pink. They were purplish because they have a red undertone. Red undertone. Got it. And so from those two experiences, I learned that one, if you're ordering custom clothes, it's good to take the fabric to as natural light as possible. Yeah. If it's outside, that's great. If it's just by the window, then that's good too. Try to do that around, you know, whatever, noon or 1 p.m. or 2 p.m. Yeah. And then try to discern whether the fabric has a warm or cold tone. So by a warm tone, I mean something with red or yellow undertones.

31:25That sometimes can clash with the trousers in your wardrobe. Because most men have gray trousers or like cold tan trousers. You may have some warmer tone fabrics as trousers in your wardrobe. In which case, you know, you can consider that when ordering a spark coat. But thinking about the temperature, the color temperature, and looking at fabric and natural light, I found to be very useful. I'm surprised you even opted for navy trousers. I know, that's a whole nother thing. I got those because I bought a Margiela leather jacket and they didn't work with anything that had my wardrobe. So I was like, I just need to get a pair of navy tailored trousers to wear this navy leather jacket.

32:04You got, was it the five zip? Yes, the five zip. You got the navy five zip? I had a blue navy five zip. I remember that. And then like, yeah, it's a whole nother. I learned from that, like, just, in my opinion, if you're going to order custom clothes, just stick to, like, a classic. Yeah. Just get classic. Just do classic tailoring. I don't know. Like, you go off in these, like, little tangents, and then it's just not what the tailor does. Yeah. It's out of their wheelhouse. I will say, TailorsKey did them excellently. I can't fault them at all. It's just my own, you know, I didn't take the fabric out to light.

32:36And then also, it was not a good idea to get custom trousers for a Margiela jacket. Okay. So the next question under that is, of the tailors you haven't tried, who would you most like to order something from? And what would you order? What about you? Mine is two very, for me, very obvious ones. One is Taylor Cade in Japan because I just, I love classic American style and I just think he does that so well. What would you do? I would get a navy doe skin blazer from him. Really? Single-breasted? Single-breasted. Single-breasted, you know, brass button blazer. typical swelled seams swelled seams, welted well I would defer to him I would defer to him although I would not, if he suggested patch flap I would resist.

33:23I would probably either get patched or just flapped pockets and then the other one that I would want is something from a Florentine Taylor who is either Livrano or worked at Livrano and that's the Italian Ulster which is an Ulster Ulster overcoat is a traditional Irish overcoat double breasted with this unique collar shape that can be flipped up but some of the Florentine tailors do them in a very nice navy fabric that looks a little bit dressier that I think looks fantastic yeah what about you? well I'm currently having a sport coat made by a Florentine tailor that was on my list and the last time I was in London I got a chance to see Salino I got measured by him when I was in Florence for pity I had the first fitting I'm tickled I've always wanted a jacket from a Florentine tailor.

34:11And if it goes well, then I would love to have an Ulster from him. Yeah. But I've already got the Florentine tailor. I haven't gotten the end product, but I'm looking forward to that. The only other thing I would like to have is I would like to have a proper British dinner suit tuxedo, specifically from Henry Poole. The people that I have known that have used Henry Poole are very happy with them there. It's a very British cut, but it's not very drapey. It's not very slim. the gorge is a little on the high side that's just their default you can ask them to go a little bit lower and do a little more classic but the people that I know that have used Henry Poole love it the cutter that is there has been there for 20 years I know him and he's like yeah come in anytime and I'm like I don't feel like dropping 10 grand on a tuxedo but if I did get one it would be single breasted peak lapel with a waistcoat and it would have that kind of button that you can either button it from the front or you can have two buttons.

35:10Have you seen that? Yeah. Which is very beautiful. I used to have a vintage tuxedo just like that. And like everything in my wardrobe, I grew out of it. But that would be on my list. Single-breasted peak lapel tuxedo with a vest from Henry Poole. No rush though. All right. The next question is, Derek, this question is about dress rules. Derek, I've seen you recommend Red Wing Pico's Hawthorne Mule Skinner in the wardrobe series multiple times. But aren't tan shoes normally harder to wear? Say the outfit will consist of a Lee 101J, olive fatigues, or khaki chinos. Would you recommend getting the Red Wing Picos in the Hawthorne Mule Skinner color?

35:45And would you get a belt to match with the boots or something else? I strongly believe that dress is a form of social language. I wrote an article years ago called How to Develop Good Taste. It was a series. And the very first entry in that series was, in my opinion, this history of dress that tries to convey dress as a set of pseudoscientific rules. Like, you know, if you're this body shape, wear these types of clothes. If you're this color, wear these types of these colors. In my opinion, those rules were trying to make a hegemonic form of dress seem scientific. They're taking a form of dress that was defined by the ruling class, which was basically classic men's tailoring, and then trying to derive some pseudoscientific rule to say, this is what constitutes a good outfit.

36:34But over time, we have many forms of dress. You don't have to just dress like the Duke of Windsor and Prince Charles. You can dress like Kanye West or a 1930s railroad worker. There's all sorts of dress. And the same rules that would apply in one type of dress don't necessarily apply in another. Exactly. Just like languages. Just like languages. I am very fluent in English. I can tell you how to spell things and grammar rules, but it doesn't mean that I take all those rules and then impose them on Japanese and Spanish or whatever. So to me, if you're inspired by the Red Wing Picos, which I do think is a great boot, I like them in a Western wear outfit.

37:15So with jeans and fatigues or workwear, the Lee 101J, I would go back to the photos of like, who does that dress really well? And what are the contours of that language? And to me, a tan or sandy colored shoe works fine in that in the same way that white sneakers look great in many casual outfits. And so you can't necessarily impose this idea of classic men's tailoring as a certain idea of how colors go together. You can't impose that onto other aesthetics. Agreed. I would also say that the belt matching doesn't, I personally don't think you have to get a belt to match in that outfit in the same way that if you're wearing white sneakers, you wouldn't necessarily get a white belt unless you want to look like a early 2000s emo.

37:56Yeah. You know the emo outfit where like, yeah. Yeah, white belts were big. Like you had these skin tight clothes, white belt, white shoes. Yeah. But if you're trying to, if you like different aesthetics with, you know, if you like, I don't know, whatever, like a, you know, like a more hip hop look or whatever, you wouldn't wear a white belt because it's just, that's just not the look. It's just not done. It's just not done. Yeah. So I would go back to the original, you know, go back to source materials that inspire you and figure out how those people dress. And I would not get a matching belt for the mule skinners.

38:26And I think that tan color works fine with fatigues. Yeah, absolutely. It looked great, actually. Not just fine. Next question. Next series of questions is a bunch of stuff on shoes. Yeah, man. One person asks, as a fellow San Franciscan, I'm curious how you handle footwear on days when you may tackle some serious mileage, especially if you're not looking to go full casual with sneakers and a sweatshirt. Do you have a shoe or a pair of boots that stay comfortable over lots of steps while still looking slightly more dressed than a sneaker? Man, well, I walk about 10 ,000 steps a day in work boots.

38:59I'm used to it. I realize that not everyone has that pain threshold, especially depending on the boot. Red Wing, Thorogood, Wesco leather, and other work boots, with the exception of suede, is really hard to break in, especially Wesco. Wesco, just the inside leather of their boss boots is thicker than the outside leather of many work boots. I remember trying to break those in and I was cursing them every day. But there's a couple of things you can do. You can use oil or wax to soften the leather and wear them on short outings until they're comfortable. That may take you 30 years. But aside... You know, back in the day, gentlemen used to give really stiff boots to their servants.

39:39Did they really? They gave them to gardeners and landscapers. And then those people basically broke them in so that the lord of the house or whatever could be comfortable. Be comfortable. I've heard stories of firemen would get their new work boots and they would put them... They would cover them with fireman's wax, which I have. And then they would put them in the oven on a low temperature. If you're doing that, if you do that and like you ruin your boots, neither of us are responsible. Sorry. Don't do that. But it does work according to several firemen. So let's say you've got an uncomfortable boot.

40:11There's a couple of things you can do. I recommend Christie souls because if you're looking for comfort all day, nothing beats Christie soul. And inserts. I use super feet inserts on all of my work boots. They'll last about a year of constant wear. I mean, after a year of work, they're pretty flat. So if you're not using them that often, they'll last years and years and years. And that gives you a lot of art support. It makes it a lot softer. Aside from work boots, you can get zip boots from Savas and Butero. They're really soft and you can wear those all day long. They're really, really nice.

40:44If you do like work boots, then there are some companies that make just not so heavy Goodyear welted Blake stitched boots. I know Thursdays does kind of a lighter weight work boot or service boot. So maybe Grant Stone. Grant Stone. Actually, their stuff is heavy. Oh, really? Yeah. Very well made. Very stout. Very sturdy. The leathers, the uppers that they use are not as thick. Okay. Also, you can get Alden Indie boots. Those are plush. Yeah. If you're looking for something a little more work-weary, then you can get them in either the kudu leather or the reverse chamois. I was going to go with just all black blundstones.

41:25To me, those are dressier than sneakers. They're not something that you can wear with tailored trousers, but presumably you're not hiking in tailored trousers, you're hiking in jeans. And to me, a pair of blundstones feel basically like sneakers. But they look a little bit nicer than a pair of sneakers. So I would do all black blundstones. And Grenson's makes an Albi boot, which you can find that has a little bit of a higher shaft. Yeah. The next question is, do you have sneaker recommendations for people with wider feet? I don't have any experience with that. I don't. You? I was going to recommend New Balance and Vans both offer sneakers in wider widths.

42:03Oh, I didn't know Vans offers wide. I knew New Balance does. So New Balance, I would just do like the classic, you know, 990 kind of, you know, they have a whole range of just basic like classic gray sneakers. They come in wide widths. And Vans, Authentics, and Slip-Ons, I think, also come in wide widths. And to me, those are like super classic. Oh, okay. Yeah. Vans come in wide. I never knew. Next person asks, I'm currently going through a painful attempt to break in some Crockett and Joan Boston loafers. How long should it take to break in leather loafers like this? What's the most you've done to get something to fit?

42:34Ooh, have you experienced those? Yeah. I found that when you're talking about breaking in shoes in general, there are two things to pay attention to. One is where you're experiencing tightness. If you're experiencing tightness lengthwise, your toes feel too cramped or, you know, like just doesn't seem to be enough length. Those are not going to break in because the shoe is essentially held in usually by plastic stiffeners at the heel and the toe. You're not getting those to budge. So you're not getting those to budge. If you're in that situation, frankly, your best bet is to sell the shoes and recoup your costs before you wear them down further and lose more money.

43:14However, if you're experiencing tightness on the width, the width end, or even across the vamp, so the kind of the part that wraps around the top of your foot, you can get that to stretch by taking them to a cobbler. They have shoe stretchers that basically stretch the leather. If it's shell cordovan, you will not get that to stretch. But if it's calf or suede, you will be able to get that to stretch. The worst experience I've had with shoes is just something that rubs against the back of my ankle. And I've unfortunately found that sometimes that is just a break-in process. So I wear socks, go on short walks.

43:51I don't take them out for the full day. Short walks around the neighborhood. Eventually that will break in. But other than that, just try to figure out where they're giving you pain. And then that will determine whether or not you can solve the issue. True. I can add to that, that if it's a strap loafer and it hurts your instep, there's not much you can do. because that strap will never really stretch laterally. Yeah. If it's a loafer that doesn't have a strap. Like a Venetian loafer. A Venetian loafer, yeah. Then you're okay. It'll eventually stretch to fit that. Also, suede is softer than calfskin, which in turn is softer than cordovan.

44:28You can break in. I've broken in suede loafers by spraying them with water and walking in them wet. And they broke in perfectly fine. And I also bought a stretcher specifically for my high instep for engineer boots. And depending, again, depending on the leather, like I tried them with my Wesco's and they stretched. And then a day later, they stretched back to their original shape. So if it's suede, no problem. It'll stretch and it'll stay stretched. If it's seven ounce thick leather from Wesco engineers, you're not going to budge those. The last person in this category asks, how do you store your shoes?

45:06For me, in trees, on a rack, no bags unless traveling. Work boots, I don't put shoe trees in them. Same. I don't use shoe trees for anything except dress shoes and nicer loafers. And then sneakers, boots, none of those get trees. I have found that over-the-door shoe organizers are useful if you live in a small space. Yeah. And then you can basically utilize the back of a closet door to hold more shoes. They don't work for boots, but they will work for loafers and sneakers and such. But they do. Oh, you have them for boots? Oh, yeah. Because you have ones that... So you can take, depending on the shoe rack, you can take out, you know, a couple of racks and you can have it where the shaft is really high.

45:52Yeah, yeah. Look into those. I think if you live in a small space, those are useful. There are also some shoe racks that essentially stack on top of each other, which can help you maximize space. Next question is about experiences. is what's the best in-person and online experience you've had related to clothing? The two that come to mind for me online still to this day is when like a famous person interacts with me on Twitter. So I've had George, it's usually almost always negative. George Santos called me an idiot. Roger Stone said I know jack shit. I am just floored when some famous person even knows who I am and is annoyed by me.

46:30I think that's amazing. Domingo knows you. Yes, Coleman Domingo. That was an incredible experience. Peter went to the Ralph Lauren fashion show and got Coleman Domingo to give me a little shout out. That was incredible. The other really nice online experiences is a collection of things. One is when people send me photos of them on their wedding day and they say, I took your advice and I want to share my wedding photos. And without exception, all the photos that people send me, they always look like a million, billion bucks. Nice. And that makes me feel good. And then another one is someone who I met online through clothing sent me a really kind email and said, you know, I just came out of a shopping trip in New York City.

47:12I visited a bunch of stores that you recommended, and I just want to thank you for introducing me to what has become a very fun hobby for me. Those have been really meaningful. And then for in-person, the most memorable or the most meaningful experience is about 15 years ago, I flew to Naples. And Gianluca Migliorotti, who is the director of a film called Omos, which is about Neapolitan tailoring, took me around town. He was born and raised in Naples, but now lives in Milan. And I met him while I was in Naples, and he took me around to show me to different tailors. And I remember, you know, he brought me to meet Rubenacci, where I met Mariano Rubenacci, brought me to meet Antonio Panico.

47:50And one thing that, one of the reasons why that was really meaningful to me is one is Mariano and Antonio have now passed on. And I think they were just titans in the industry. To some degree, really special people, not because they were very accomplished, but also because they were kind of among the last of a generation that had a real direct link to the mid-century of Italian tailoring, which is, to me, just a fantastic period. I mean, the level of taste, in my opinion, was really great. And I remember going into Antonio Panico's workshop and he has this really nice kind of welcoming room that's filled with all these beautiful paintings.

48:29And it's just a really beautifully decorated room. And it's there where he would sit and greet people and chat for a while. There was this article on Ask Andy About Clothes, a forum. And we're going back. Someone wrote an article on there, must have been like 20 years ago now, called the Neapolitan Sartoria Experience. and it was half written. Ask Andy about clothes as a form and I think it at least crashed once, if not twice. And during those crashes, a lot of information was wiped out. But that one post, the Neapolitan Sartre experience, describes someone going to Naples, going to a tailor's workshop and then having coffee and having a conversation.

49:06And then only when the client brings it up does Antonio and the client talk business. Then they bring out the books and they have this fitting and it sounded so beautiful and romantic. And I had a conversation with Gianluca about it, and he explained that, at least when he was growing up, the Italian tailoring workshop is kind of similar to like a black American barbershop. It's a place where people congregate to chat and hang out. You might order clothes, but a lot of people just kind of hang out there and talk. It's like a, you know, it's the same way that like if you go to black barbershops today, there'll still be guys in there.

49:42It's like a social environment. Long after they've gotten their hair cut. Yes, they just hang around. And often the tailor will have dressed like the grandson and the father and the young dress generations. And I remember going to Antonio's workshop, sitting around, like, you know, it's this ritual. You go in, they say - Give me an espresso. It's always an espresso. You know, can I get you coffee? And you drink all these expressos. And while we were talking, an older gentleman walked in. He was this older, kind of heavier set Italian guy with slicked-backed white hair. He looked so elegant. And apparently, he had been getting clothes from Antonio since he was like in his 20s or 30s.

50:24And he came in, sat, chatted. We all had coffee. And he didn't even order anything. Then he just like— He had his coffee and left. When he was done, and then he just left. Nice. You know? And I think that, for me, was special partly because I don't think that's an experience that you can necessarily get unless like a local Neapolitan in that group introduces you. Because it's not like a package deal, right? It's not like you pay$500 and you go on this roller coaster. It's just part of like a social environment. And so being able to witness that and see it to me was a very memorable thing, especially now that Antonio has passed on.

51:00I valued that memory. What about you? Well, my best in-person experience is always right here with you, Derek. Oh, very, very kind. How sweet. No, in-person experience. At first, I thought this was related to shopping. But now that I think about what you said, I think one of my experiences that I'm most happy about, like I think about it and it makes me smile, is my trip to Sicily to get to know Sicilian tailors. because it was my quest to go to Sicily, find someone, get a couple of suits made and see if they can start coming to the United States because why would I keep flying to Sicily if they can come here?

51:38And I went to three and they were all wonderful. Two of them were ancient. One is dead. That was Arrigo. That's not a laughing matter. Sorry for laughing at that. It's just, it's darkly funny because a lot of the people that I look up to and respect and love, they're gone. It's just like, holy cow, man. Exactly. I mean, he was in his 80s when I met him. He lived until his 90s. The other one was Vittorio Palmisano, who is in Catania. He's still alive and he still does one thing at a time with his sister. That's the only other person he uses. But none of them wanted to come to the United States.

52:12They're like, too old. And then I met a guy who said, oh, well, there's someone that I think you should meet. I wasn't even looking for this person. And I went up to his shop, which is in the hills of Palermo. and I met him and I had a suit made and it was good. And I asked him to come and he said, okay. And that was Salvo from Isarti Tagliani. Young guy, he was in his early thirties, no, late twenties at the time. Now he's in his thirties and now he does trunk shows here in the United States. And the guy's like my cousin. Very, very nice guy. Very warm. Every time I go out there, I'll stay with him.

52:49He's like, you can't stay anywhere else. You have to stay at our house. And then they'll feed me and then I'll eat and I'll drink until I, I mean, they're just such wonderful people. Very wonderful. Every time I think about, every time he comes to town, I get excited and I get a chance to see him again. Yeah. Online experiences. I've had good online shopping experiences. I've gotten some emails from people, like they'll DM me and they'll say, hey, I'm happy to hear of a guy that has this interest and is a union laborer. Yeah. an electrician, a plumber, someone who works with his hands, and then also is into this.

53:27That makes me smile. Because these people were afraid, or they were trepidatious, or they thought that there is no way that they can also like clothes while still monkey-wrenching under the hood of their... It can seem very like Milan fashion model world, yeah. Yeah, I just got this one email, just one DM that I'll mention briefly. He says, hey, I just wanted to reach out to you and to let you know that my son looks up to you. I have two sons. I'm a dean in a university. I have two sons. One is very academic and he's on his track to continue in his father's footsteps. The other one, not so much, but he loves working with his hands.

54:09And he loves the fact that you are into clothes and also like working with your hands. So I just want to say thank you. And I was like, wow, that was just a beautiful email. I get stuff like that every now and then that makes me happy. I don't have any bad experiences online. I don't have anyone saying, I hate you, you're a jackass. I can't imagine putting myself out there like you do. So fortunately, I haven't gotten that. The next question is on what counts. Someone asked, what actually reads across the room? Almost everything that we talk about, the cloth, the makers, the stitching details, is stuff only other enthusiasts will ever see.

54:47The things that a stranger reads first are fit, color, and proportion. Those are broad and cheap. Anyone can get them right with a good tailor and better color instincts. The things we spend our time on are scarce and expensive. How much of dressing well is really just the stuff that reads at a distance, and the rest is connoisseurship for an audience of one? Does color get so little airtime because it reads as taste rather than as knowledge, so it's harder to be an authority on? I'll let you go first on this. I will say that color does not get a lot of airtime in menswear, partly because a lot of men's clothing derives from clothing that was originally used for sport, work, or war.

55:23And those tend to be blues and greens and blacks. And, you know, like they're often the color in men's wear grows out of some practicality. That doesn't mean that you can't wear a pink jacket or a pink suit or a yellow pair of trousers. It's just that they tend to be more niche. And the bulk of men's clothing derives from utilitarian garments that were designed for a certain purpose. I will say that the things that read across the room for me often is someone who is not into clothing at all. So I will, the people that I notice are like, you know, in the Bay Area, there are what's, I use this term affectionately, gutter punks, crusties, people that are kind of like, you know, anarchists, hopping trains, begging for change, you know, on the corner.

56:09Those people are wearing like, you know, like fatigues, denim vest with like pins and, you know, band patches. Those people I think look fantastic. I wrote an article years ago called Book Corps, which was about people that I see at my local bookstore. Those are people that are wearing like frumpy tweed jackets, Jansport backpack. Bucket hats. Bucket hats, corduroy pants, chunky, ugly sneakers. I think of a woman who worked at a coffee shop near me that used to wear these beautiful outfits all the time. If I had to describe them, I would have said that they're somewhere between Armani and La Mer.

56:52And I asked her where she gets her clothes, and it turns out she thrifts all of it, and she just adjusts it at home using her own sewing machine. The things that, to me, read across the room are usually like a total package. it's the person the persona the style what the outfit expresses and it's not always just like someone who is cleanly tailored or whatever it's kind of to me like a whole thing like if i see like a metal head and they've got long hair and you know they're wearing a ripped up you know kind of denim jacket or something i think that looks great or a rotund older italian gentleman yeah slick back white hair yeah looking elegant i to me they're usually it's like a character You know, it's like seeing someone in a movie.

57:34That's what reads across the room for me. What about you? I like that. For me, I mean, color is absolutely the first thing I notice, partly because of what you said, the fact that all of our, most of menswear derives from utilitarian beginnings. But also because of the great renunciation, color was just kind of tossed out the window because we are all sober people now. We can't think about such frivolous things. And so, and it's sadly that has continued down to this day when men wear color, they're laughed at, they're pointed at, whereas women embrace that much, much more, which I like. That's the first thing I noticed.

58:08That's the first thing most men notice, I would say. I would hazard to say. Then fit, then fabric and cloth. Only if scarce few will say, oh, that's a pick and pick. And you're like, well, actually in America, we call it shark skin. Yeah. You know, very, very few will do that. I think dressing well and having style, you need two things. You need to know how you want to present yourself, like how you want to feel and how you want to be seen and how you want others to see you. So thinking about yourself and then thinking about how you may present yourself to others or how you want others to see you.

58:40And then knowing how to execute that look. And so that takes some time. That means you have to, well, I want to feel like Raiders of the Lost Ark. Okay, well, what do I need? I need big chinos. I need indie boots. I need a leather jacket. You know, all of these. And so, is that how you want to present yourself? And you want to look like you have style? Then do that. Or you want to look like a gutter punk. Or you want to look like a DC politician. All of these things take time. But you need to know those two things. How you want to present yourself or how you want others to see you. And then know how to execute that look.

59:14That, to me, I notice. Like, if someone puts the time into doing that. and they know how to present themselves as a kind of a cultural language that is easy to understand that shows that that has some thought. Yeah. The next set of questions is around taste. And there are three questions. I'm going to read them all together so that we can discuss them as a topic. One person asks, how important do you think it is to be part of a subculture to develop personal style, regardless of whether you stick with that subculture or not? Another person asks, you've talked about how clothing these days is inspired by clothes from the past.

59:45For someone who's just getting into menswear and exploring their taste, how would one go about learning about these original styles, clothing genres, and periods? And then another person asks, Derek and Peter have talked before about aesthetic coherence between your outfit and your car. Do you guys strive for aesthetic match between clothes and other areas of life, such as interior decor, housewear, and pets? I do not choose pets based on aesthetics. I think - My cat does not go with my outfit. Yeah, I think that's a little much. I will say that my view on all of those things is I think, first off, I think it's fine.

1:00:21I don't have very hard rules for any of this. But I do think when I think of developing taste, I think it kind of grows out of a natural interest in culture. So I don't think you have to be part of a subculture. But if you're interested in Western wear, I do think it's an opportunity to read about whatever the mythology of the cowboy, the history of Western suits, or the history of denim, or, you know, workwear subcultures. On the issue of aesthetic coherence, I think that kind of naturally spills over. If you are interested in, let's say, classic men's tailoring, there's probably some good chance that you're interested in classic aesthetics in other areas.

1:01:04That doesn't mean that your whole house has to be like a Lorde Manor or whatever. But I do think that these things— This is my sporting room where I wear my tweeds. I do think that this stuff—and I don't think that has to be necessarily coherent. I think it's fine to live, to be interested in classic tailoring. And your home is like filled with comic book posters and whatever, anime figurines or whatever. I just think that these things naturally come out of a curiosity about the world. And that to me, you know, on the issue of how do you learn about these things? I just think that your interest in style naturally comes out of an interest in the world.

1:01:40And to me, that is what makes these objects or designs meaningful. we're pretty much in line with the way that we view it I mean it used to be that up into the 90s and maybe into the 2010s dress was inextricably linked with culture and if you dressed outside of that then you were called a poser if you're interested in punk music you dress a certain way if you're into hip hop or electronic music whatever you're into surfing all these subcultures had a certain style of dress and I think it's fine that you don't necessarily, I don't think you have to ride a motorcycle to wear cafe racer or something, but there are certain kind of ideas around these aesthetics where if you, like, I feel a little bit more armored and braced for the world when I wear workwear.

1:02:29And that is part of my, what I think of the aesthetic, how the aesthetic makes me feel and, you know, what I've learned about the aesthetic. Oh, I feel the opposite. I feel, cause I, you know, I wear this stuff all day and I just can't wait to get out of it. I mean, to a certain extent, I mean, and I feel great when I wear a suit. I'm like, yeah, this is awesome. But yeah, I think, I mean, do you have to be a part of that culture? No, I don't think you do. Dress has been increasingly divorced from culture, which is great. I think if you're into a look, but don't have access to that culture to learn its dress codes or the language of that culture.

1:03:03If you want to dress cohesively, then just spend 20 years of your life on online forums. Easy. and right click and save all the appropriate definitions and examples of that and give them the appropriate tags. But I don't think you have to do that necessarily. You can get books. There's a really cool book that came out in the early 2000s called Cool Style, Sound and Subversion. Did you ever get that book? No. It was super cool. I gave it to a friend, but it came out and I'm like, this is amazing because it was at the tail end of when it was linked. Your clothing was linked to culture. You could be like a Japanese hiker or you can be whatever.

1:03:47It was definitively linked to that culture. And this is a great shorthand for that. It's all hand-painted illustrations of how that particular culture would look with examples. There's another book that I have called Timeless. I kept this one. It's a great book. And at the end, it has 22 emblematic styles and how they have shaped history. So, punks, and what exactly did they wear? Surfers, what did they wear? Zoot suits, the people from the Congo, sapours, you know, how did they influence dress? All of that was very linked to part of their culture at the time, but it has shaped culture, even though they are miles and miles away from it.

1:04:35Yeah. So, I think you can get good books that can give you a little primer of these cultures and their dress that's linked to it. Me personally, I'm fortunate in that I can, I have many different situations that I can dress to, but I don't think about that when I hop in the car or when I get on my motorcycle. Yeah. It's a great excuse to wear a motorcycle jacket, but sometimes I'll go to a meeting in a suit on the motorcycle. Yeah. And, you know, I'll wear some armor underneath it, but no, I don't do that. The next set of questions is people are asking how they should dress for certain situations.

1:05:06And there are a few scenarios, three scenarios. Okay. First one says, I enjoy hosting people at my home for things like dinner parties. Part of what I like about it is it's an opportunity to dress in a nice outfit. I'm also the owner of the best cat in the world, Charlie, who has a movement disorder and is a bit older, so he's not super mobile. He is incredibly insistent and active cuddler who puts a lot of marks on my clothes. Any suggestions for an outfit that feels cozy, approachable, and put together that he won't unravel in the act of cuddling? For any season you feel like discussing, for further context, I'm a musician and I work in an artist residency in rural New England.

1:05:43My home has a sort of Bloomsbury aesthetic. I'd like to meet this guy. Yeah, sounds great. First off, thank you for not declawing your cat. And thank you for adopting a cat with movement issues. Yeah. I think that's fantastic. I will say that I think pet hair is part of an outfit. So I don't think you don't have to be ashamed of it. When I think of a cozy, so when I was thinking about this situation, one is I think automatically going for wovens rather than knits. So woven is stuff that you find on like a button-up shirt or denim, most jackets. And a knit is obviously like a sweater, you know, something that if a cat's claws catch on, it's really like not great.

1:06:27Yeah. So I think of first going for wovens. And then the thing that I thought of when we're trying to create a cozy aesthetic using a woven fabric, I think of moleskin and chamois fabric. So I think of a pair of, you know, you could either do for pants, you can do, you know, basic raw denim blue jeans or olive fatigues or chinos. And then for the shirt, I would just do like a chamois fabric, you know, button up. the classic is L.L. Bean, but I find their fabric to be so thick that in my opinion, it works better as a shirt jacket. I think it works better as a shirt jacket, but Double RL has done chamois button-ups that are thin enough that you can easily tuck in to jeans or chinos or fatigues.

1:07:09If you want, you can layer a chore coat over that. I think - But if you're in your house, probably not. Yeah, maybe in your house, maybe not. But if you wanted an extra layer, I think it's either Le Le Boer or Vetra has done moleskin chore coats that will feel and look a little bit more cuddly than the normal denim variety. I would just do like a chamois shirt. Yeah, chamois. That's a great idea. I wish I had thought of that. I was thinking duck cloth, you know, like double knee pants or denim. If you're in New England, then you're probably going to choose chinos. But But if you do wear denim, you can wear a chambray shirt or a denim shirt or even a sweatshirt.

1:07:52Anything washable. And I know sweatshirt is, you can pull a sweatshirt, but it's a lot harder to do that than a sweater. You know, like a chamois workwear style shirt or a sweatshirt looks good if it's like, if it's screwed up. Yeah, it does. You know what I'm saying? Whereas if you're wearing like a very fine cashmere knit, it doesn't look as good. So there are certain items that look good as they're getting destroyed. So I would offer those. Also, along with the trouser options we mentioned, I would do cords. Corduroy. I was thinking corduroy. Ribbed corduroy pants. Those look great when they're beat up.

1:08:28Tailored, you know, just like normal corduroy tailored trousers. Or you could do like five pocket cords, which will be a little bit more affordable. Or a 15th century French plate armor. Yeah. Not cuddly, but... Yeah, we'll protect you against your cap. The next one is, I'm planning an autumn trip to Iceland with a group. A lot of our trip will be outdoors orientated, which means cold, wet, muddy, high winds, etc. I'll likely be living head to toe in Gore-Tex for a few days. As a treat at the end of our trip, after roughing it for a few days, we are also staying in a luxurious leaning hotel for a few nights.

1:09:01What are some cozy pieces you guys would pack that would feel amazing after an adventurous trip and some harsh weather? Maybe as lounge-ish wear, the thing that would feel incredible by a cocktail bar next to a fireplace having drinks with friends in a snowstorm. Wow. I only have one suggestion. A caftan. Well, yeah. If you can go all that way, definitely a caftan. But otherwise, to me, the double RL shawl collar cardigans. Oh, yeah. Which is like, they're not actually as cozy as like a cashmere even lans. No, they're a little drier. They're a little bit drier. They're a little bit heavier. They feel a little bit more rugged.

1:09:38Yeah. But that, like after you've gone through all of that, to me, that feels like a majestic cape coat that you put on and you feel rugged, but cozy at the same time. I was thinking a cardigan too. I mean, it could be anything. It could be a cozy cardigan. It could be a Shetland or a Lamb's wool. But yeah, a beefy RRL cardigan. Those are very expensive. You can find them for cheaper on eBay. So RRL does hand-knit versions and machine-knit versions. the hand-knit versions are prohibitively expensive in my opinion without equal i think they are so good yeah i cannot think of something that says that i can point to says this basically looks like that but for cheaper they are in my opinion without equal if you are you know if you look at them even on ebay you're looking at like a grand minimum no you i've seen i've seen them for like five six hundred even have you even the hand oh i'm thinking of the ranch sweaters like the belted ones those are very expensive those are even more expensive those are even yeah that's what i thought But I've seen Double RL hand-knit cardigans on eBay for$500,$600.

1:10:40Oh, wow. If you want to go a little bit lower, there are lamb's wool, chunky shawl collar cardigans, usually six-ply. You can find those from makers like Scott & Charters, William Locke. Those will also feel really cozy. You can get vintage Polo Ralph Lauren belted sweaters for$200,$300. Yes. And you can find those on eBay for a little bit less. To me, those are also really nice. The only thing about both the double RL shawl collar cardigan, which is super heavy, will add weight to your luggage. And the Scott and Charters, William Lockie shawl collar cardigans are super fluffy. Right. It will take up space in your luggage.

1:11:18So those are two things to consider. I was thinking also some beat up denim. Some nice worn in. Because if you're going to be head to toe Gore-Tex, you're going to want to put on your favorite pair of jeans. Yeah. T-shirt underneath the cardigan, maybe some suede loafers to feel like, I don't have to lace up these boots anymore. I can just slip on these suede loafers and hold a snifter of brandy. Yeah. Double RL does slip-on shoes that are lined in like a sheepskin or something. I've seen those. The outside has like a kind of Native American rug kind of design. Yeah. Those look fantastic, but I mean, it is very indulgent to buy a pair of double R slippers for your trip.

1:12:02But if you have the money, I mean, if you're staying at a luxurious hotel. This is pocket change. The next one is, can you give some recommendations for date nights? Something to wear to a restaurant or cocktail wine bar at night? You've talked about fun suits and sport coats with turtlenecks, right? But I'd be interested in ideas that don't involve tailoring. Do you have suggestions? I do. I do, yeah. of basically just dressed like Mark Cho or Andrews Venus. They have that wine bar look where they dress well, but they don't look too dressed up. But both those guys, Mark Cho and Andrews Venus, are usually in tailoring.

1:12:40They are, but when they dress down, they'll wear, like Mark Cho wears a Teba. They also have, he made another jacket, which is similar to that. If your husband goes out in a Teba jacket, you are in deep trouble. He's out stalking. You are like very men's word nerdy at that point. 100 Hands makes what they call their traveler jacket that's kind of in line with that wine bar vibe. I have two of them. They're great. My wife really likes them because it looks really nice, but it doesn't look too tailored. She's like, I don't want you to, not always, but sometimes when we go out, she's like, I don't want you to be too dressed up, but I want you to look nice.

1:13:20and she likes those jackets because they don't have any canvassing. They're much more casual, but they're made in beautiful fabrics and they're very well made. If you want one as a substitute for a blazer, they have one in a navy wool jersey, which I tried on and is crazy comfortable and looks great. But then they also have a bunch of other fabrics. If you want a nice shirt, you can either do an Oxford cloth button-down shirt or for something a little dressy, a one-piece collar. They make them. You can get them from Ascot Chang as well. You can get them from a lot of shirt makers. They'll make a one-piece collar.

1:13:55And that kind of goes in line with that wine bar vibe. What about you? I think of, you know, if you're going for a date night, you're going to a wine bar, you're not, unless you're married to another menswear nerd, the clothes have to be kind of normie, essentially. And to me, the nice normie wine bar jacket thing is Todd Snyder's Dillon jacket. The suede jacket, it has a recognizable form, which is say a trucker jacket, but it's made in a nicer suede. It's something that like, you know, if you're, unless again, unless you're married to another men's wear nerd. Or one that puts up with one. Yeah, one who puts up with one.

1:14:34That is like the jacket to make them happy. Yeah. It's like, I look nice. I am putting in effort. It is kind of the thing that when you are doing this kind of dressy, very normal aesthetic. Sometimes it lacks, it can for some guys feel like it lacks a bit of an edge. It's just kind of so vanilla. Yeah. So if you want to push it just one notch away from super normal aesthetic, Savas has their 1968 jacket, which is made, again, it's a trucker style jacket made from leather. So it looks a little bit dressier. It derives from a workwear design, but looks dressy. And there's just something about like a Savas jacket that to me is not - Looks a little more rock and roll.

1:15:18It's a little bit more rock and roll, but it's not so like, you're not wearing like a capital ring coat to dinner. Right, yeah, it's not so like that. Because then like your wife is like, what are you doing? You know? Is this a robe? What is this? You still look nice. Yeah. And it's still something everyone can understand. But to me, it's just one notch away from super vanilla. Yeah. I have a Dillon jacket. It's nice. Yeah. The next question is about pet hair. Derek, you've talked about being a cat guy before. Now recall you even mentioning getting called out for your clothes being covered in cat hair, which is true.

1:15:48Do you have any advice for removing pet hair from garments and preventing them from accruing? I'm specifically interested in taking care of garments that can't be easily washed, like wool sweaters, worsted wools, raw denim that's not ready to wash yet, etc. That is true. I again think that pet hair is part of the outfit. I think taking care of a pet is a beautiful thing. And so it is - Be proud of it. It's valor, right? It's like, you know, it's proof that you are doing something nice. That said, I do think that there are some ways you can manage it. One way is to regularly brush your cat or dog.

1:16:22I use the Furminator, which is kind of like a cat de-shedding tool. I love that name. You can get that off of Chewy for like 30 bucks. I find that to be super helpful, especially during the shedding season, which tends to be spring when the cat is shedding their winter coat as they're moving into warmer weather. So pay attention to that. And the other thing is we'll have a link in the show notes, an article that I did years and years and years ago on lint brushes that I find useful. Kent Brush, which is a British manufacturer of clothing brushes, to me, there are very few things I would call a menswear essential.

1:17:00Clothing brush is one of the very few things. Because whether you have a pet or not, tailored clothing is not something that you want to dry clean super often. You want to minimize the number of dry clean tricks. You can upkeep it without sending it to the dry clean. And that usually means brushing it every once in a while with a clothing brush. Kent brushes, you can get that on eBay or online for maybe around a hundred bucks. And it's something that will last you literally for the rest of your life. I like the two-sided ones so that there's a softer side for certain fabrics and a stiffer side for like a worsted wool.

1:17:36The other thing is there are certain brushes that I find, I use that for tailored clothing, but for things that are a bit hardier, like a chore coat, every pet hair removal and lint brush is like a rubber brush that I find super effective on hardier fabrics. Not something that I would use on tailoring, but on something like a pair of jeans, for example. Really? This is really good. We'll have a link in the show notes. I once spent something like almost 200 bucks on pet hair removal products. Just trying to test them all out. And then I wrote an article on what I found useful. Nice. So the next set of questions is about hyper-specific aesthetics.

1:18:15And there are two questions I grouped in here. I'll read them both. One person asks, curious, what are your thoughts on brands that operate in a hyper-specific way? For example, the Adam Foundation constructs garments in one size only in line with traditional garments made in the Netherlands. And they take their inspiration from how garments were used historically. Adrette makes garments from rare materials out of their Indonesian workshop. Hand-spun cotton shirts, mahogany shoe trees, horned sunglasses, etc. Is it too tough to incorporate these types of garments in a wardrobe? Another person asks, we are seeing a big trend in Mandarin and Nehru collar jackets and lots of frog or centipede or knotted closures from fashion brands.

1:18:56What do you guys think is the line in terms of it looking like cosplay or just getting into cultural appropriation? Well, I think hyper-specific aesthetics, I think, depends on the brand. Adred, I think, is pretty normal. I mean, the way that he makes them is not. It's very specific. But otherwise, it's just a button-up shirt, loose-fitting pants. I think that is easy to incorporate into your wardrobe. You can get an adrette shirt if you'd like, and you can get linen drawstring trousers from J.Crew. I think that's easy. Some others might be harder. Like, Capital can be harder. Yeah, I agree. There are some aesthetics where, to me, I think we've said this in other pods, to me, a Rick Owens jacket looks best with Rick Owens pants and Rick Owens shoes.

1:19:42Yeah, Capital's another one. Capital's another one. There are some things in Capital's lineup where, like, I think you can do a ring jacket with a textured sweater and jeans. Yeah. But it is nice if you can also incorporate a Capital scarf or a Capital pair of shoes. Right. There are some aesthetics that are very specific. Yeah. And really, like, you have to lean into the thing. Yeah. I agree that a dress, I don't, I think those are things easy to wear. Yeah. Dedam Foundation wears, makes, like, these kind of one-size-fits-all. It's this kind of looser aesthetic. I think when you start to play around with proportions like that, it is good to think about the other proportions of your clothes.

1:20:19So certain brands, if you will, do this kind of looser aesthetic. And then if you buy this big baggy button-up shirt and you wear them with slim fit J.Crew chinos that you bought in 2010, maybe it'll look a little weird. Yeah. So you might want to consider a looser pair of pants. Yeah. Or look at their lookbook and see what they're trying to do. Exactly. maybe, oh, well, I don't have to buy the pants, but I can buy something similar to that. I think another designer that is like that is Yoji. It's like, you kind of have to go all in with Yoji. Yeah, if you wear Yoji pants with a J.Crew button-up, it's going to look weird.

1:20:57Rosen Rosen is another one that is pretty specific. I look at her clothing line for both men and women. It's very specific, but she does have some overcoats that I think you can wear. She has some, she has some like overcoat, trench coat kind of designs that I think if you, again, I wouldn't wear it with like a Brooks Brothers button-up, but I would wear it with like a Aaron sweater. Yeah, exactly. Like a Donegal sweater and a pair of jeans. I think that would look great. And then you could just pick a, you know, like a basic pair of boots. Yeah, exactly. It could be a Blundstone boot or, you know, like, I mean, a lot of her clothes can also, you could take it really far.

1:21:33You could go into like a real techie kind of outfit, but also wear it with more classic aesthetic. Yeah. I do think it really depends on the item. The further you go into certain things that stray very far, like Rick Owens, Yoji, the more you have to embrace that whole aesthetic. And the more the item is just kind of in the orbit of, you know, kind of familiar forms, the easier it is to incorporate to a wardrobe. On the issue of cultural appropriation, I think that is, there are many interpretations of that. There are some people who dismiss it entirely. and there's some people who are super hardline about it.

1:22:09I like - What's your stance? Susan Scafidi wrote a book on cultural appropriation in clothing. She also wrote an article for, I think it was Time Magazine. And her rubric was on, you know, cultural appropriation to me is, I'm not super hardline about it because to me, clothing has traversed borders for a very long time. Yeah, millenniums. Fair Isle sweaters. Yeah. And the way that they've been used in, you know, kind of like indigenous Canadian knitting techniques. A lot of clothing has kind of been formed or language has been formed through centuries of essentially some form of cultural appropriation.

1:22:48I like Susan Scafidi's framework in that she talks about cultural appropriation in terms of what she calls the three S's. So significance or sacredness, source and similarity. So to me, I would not wear a Jewish yarmulke or a Native American headdress because those are considered sacred items to the culture. Makes sense. I just think once you get into sacredness, you just want to be careful of how you're using something. Right. You don't want to be disrespectful to sacred symbols. Right. I will say that I am somewhat hypocritical in that, in that I have a necklace with Christian pendants. Okay.

1:23:27And I went to a Christian church when I was young. I identified as a Christian when I was young. I do not currently identify with Christians as a Christian. But I have like pendants that is like, you know, the saint of animals, for example. But it has significance to you. I do recognize that it is a weird thing because I would not, like, again, like a Jewish yarmulke, you know, I wouldn't wear Muslim symbols. It is kind of a weird thing. I will admit that it's somewhat hypocritical. And then source and similarity is something that I do think makes some impact. If I'm buying Native American jewelry, I would prefer if the item is made by Native Americans, I prefer Shetland sweaters that come from the Shetland Islands.

1:24:13Or at least Scotland. Scotland. Those are kind of my general rubrics for things, but I'm not one to say like, oh, you, you know, there was this thing a while ago where some woman wore this traditional, I think it was like a Chinese or Vietnamese dress. Oh, I saw that. And like people said, my culture is not your costume. I just think, I don't know. I don't think it's bad if someone takes appreciation of a garment. I don't think that's, as long as it's not a sacred item, and especially if they're buying it from people that, from that community, I think that's fine. Yeah. I mean, as far as that goes, band collars, yeah, they're associated with Eastern cultures, but others have worn them throughout history.

1:24:53There's been collarless jackets worn in Europe. In the military, there are collarless jackets or ones with the collars that stand up. And farm folk wore collarless jackets all over the place. So it depends on how far you do go into that look. But then at the same time, in the 60s, there was the bohemian look. And that's well established by now. That's what I'm saying. These things, I just don't think you can peg them as like, oh, this is Eastern and you have to be Asian. and like only like these things have layered history. You have to be in the West to wear combo boots. You look at like Jimi Hendrix, he wore all sorts of like Eastern, like design elements that derive from East Asia, but he wore them in a really hippie kind of counter-cultural way.

1:25:40And I just think there are layers to this history. And as long as you approach things with respect, I think it's fine. If you approach something with respect and you are respectful of the cultures that they come from, I think it's fine. I do think that there are some times when you, like, Viswim did a Sanjuro jacket, which was derived from the traditional Japanese designs, and they were really popular 15 years ago or so. There was sometimes when some guys wore that in ways that I was like, you kind of look weebish, like a white guy wearing it. I think as long as you are aware of how it comes off.

1:26:17But I'm not super militant. I'm not the type to say like... I mean, I've seen women for the for the as long as i've been alive wear japanese style kimonos because they're comfortable yeah and they think they're cool yeah so i i'm with you i'm not so hard line about it especially if it's been done for such a long time like calvin klein and armani in the 90s they had neru jackets you know remember a bunch of basketball players wore five button suits yeah with a mandarin collar right and and they looked modern it looked minimalist a little weird now a little now, yeah. Some of those did not age very well.

1:26:52But who knows? But at the time, it looked great. Yeah. So yeah, not so hard line. This other question, we got so many questions that basically was reiterating this question. But I'm only going to read one of the set of questions that we've received. Okay. And it was essentially, when the hell can I wear a tailoring? So I will just read one person's question. I built a wardrobe and now 10 years later, I have everything, or at least I don't really need anything more. Yet most of my purchases, in hindsight, were more aspirational. So 90 % of the wardrobe doesn't really get much wear. I work from home, which only exacerbates the issue.

1:27:27These days, I dress up for the occasional dinner and client meeting. I cannot shake the thought that you, Derek, as a writer, probably working from home too, have at least experienced some of these challenges. How do you keep enjoying dressing up? And more importantly, keep your aspirations in check. I love bespoke clothing, yet I don't really have a lot of occasions to wear it. I will buy my next Glenn Check double-breasted suit just in case I find myself in a boardroom meeting. I will say that there are still occasions that require a suit, specifically suit fittings. But a Glenn Check double-breasted?

1:27:56Suit fittings still, to this day, you will require— So as long as you keep on ordering bespoke clothes, you will have situations where you need to wear a suit. Perfectly natural. Yeah. We got so many questions that were essentially this. I love tailoring. I cannot find the occasions to wear them. I think some of this depends on where you live. I think if you live in a major city, it's easier to get away with not only tailoring, but whatever you want. I've walked around San Francisco and I've seen people literally wear tutus and like a leather jacket. So to me, I feel like if that person can wear literally a tutu and army boots marching down the street, you're saying I can't wear a corduroy suit.

1:28:38Like, you know, like in a city, it is so, people are doing such crazy things. It's part of the reason why I think it's fine to get rid of dress codes and for people to wear crazy things. Because as long as we live in that environment, I can wear whatever I want without judgment. And a suit is going to be the least offensive out of it. Yes. The least unusual. It's so hegemonic, right? Yeah. So if you live in a major city, I really think you can get away with it. I do think it's easier as you get older. You feel less constrained. Right. When I was younger, I felt more pressure to dress like my peers.

1:29:09And as I get older, I just, you live in a city and just, you do whatever you do. And I don't think anyone really cares. I do understand that if you live in a smaller town, these pressures can be larger. If you're younger, you feel more pressure to conform. I think if you want to have opportunities to wear a suit, going out for nice dinners, making that a tradition. If you, we have a friend who goes out, who dresses up, formal Friday Andy, who he and his wife dress up in really formal clothes. We're talking like, you know, tuxedos, you know, formal evening wear, and they go out to a nice dinner.

1:29:44They look great. If you want to make that a tradition, I think you can. But if you want to take it one step, you know, down on the formality scale, I think if you go to any place that charges like$20,$25 for a meal, I think that can be an occasion to wear a sport coat. Yeah. I do feel the guy because a lot of what I buy is aspirational, meaning maybe not in the way that he means it, but I think I will wear that eventually. Yeah. I love that. I don't know how it will fit into my wardrobe, but I love that I'm going to find a way to shoehorn it in. And so I would say 20 to 30 % of my wardrobe rarely gets worn once or twice a year.

1:30:20And I feel bad about it. I think the only thing that I have a three-year rule, if I don't wear something for two to three years, I have to get rid of it, which forces me to wear and enjoy the stuff that I've bought and prevents me from buying new stuff. So, and really only the closet space that I have in this small apartment prevents me from going crazy and dumping my life savings into clothes. But I do think having a limit of what you buy, like if I don't wear it for two or three years and I'll gift it to someone who would really enjoy it. I've got too many shoes. Maybe there's a young kid that he's just getting into clothes and maybe I can gift him a few things.

1:30:55Yeah, that's, I feel his pain, but. Do you have certain occasions that you find it easier to wear, Taylor? Well, yeah, I'm fortunate in that I wear tailoring twice a week to religious meetings, at least twice a week. I can raise the formality up or down because now if you wear a linen suit, no one's going to say, that's a casual suit. It's just a suit. People see that as a suit. So I'm pretty fortunate. I really do think you go out to nice bars, although maybe don't form a drinking habit, but go to nice bars or go to get some nice dinners. But I also, again, I just feel like if you live in a major city, I don't know.

1:31:29I wear tailored clothing to go to the coffee shop. Yeah. And nobody says anything. Nobody says anything. And again, I just feel like you see people wear crazy stuff all the time. I'm not saying that pejoratively. You know, I'm fantastic. Yeah. I think that creates an environment where people just - But comparative to a Macalino sport coat. Yeah. Like if you're walking down the street in like some crazy, insane outfit, and I'm wearing a Macalino sport coat, I feel freer to do what I do. And I celebrate the fact that you are now walking around in a tutu. Yeah. And we can live harmoniously together.

1:32:05If you live in a town where, you know, you feel a little bit more pressure, I would say start dinner parties. You know, you can have. That's a great idea. I found that there are a lot of people, not to make it gendered, but I do think that it's more common among women who take pleasure in dressing up. and would be happy to do like a monthly or weekly get together where people wear nice things to your home to have dinner. You know, you don't have to tell the guys to all wear suits, but you can just say like, you know, this is a dress up dinner party. And quite honestly, I do think if you invite women, a lot of women find that they take pleasure in it.

1:32:45You know, they will welcome the opportunity. You're not imposing on them, which I think is the key. You don't want to create obligations for people. If you do an open invite and say, we're going to do this thing once a month, people enjoy it. You can go out for nice dinners, religious meetings, host dinner parties. And again, I just think you can just do it because you enjoy it. I don't think you have to feel bad about it. The next question is about our somewhat of our go-tos and what to do if you get stuck in a rut. First question is for Derek and Peter, what do you guys like to wear when you don't want to think much about your clothes?

1:33:18say when you don't have much time to get ready in the morning, or you're just running out for an errand to the grocery store or the coffee shop. Another person asked a somewhat related question, what do you guys do to get out of a rut? Meaning when you feel disinterested in what you've been currently wearing and feel like you've been stuck re-wearing the same outfits. For that, there are people that I follow on Instagram. There are stores that I follow. There are lookbooks, companies that I follow. Drake's, Stofa, SelfEdge, Buck Mason, Ralph Lauren. I follow them because 99 % of what they put out, I like.

1:33:48But I also enjoy following people, stores, brands that put out stuff that I would probably not buy, but are super inspiring. Because every now and then, they do put out something where I think, I think that would work for me. And so for that, I think of Double RL. I think of Anthony Madsen. Yeah. AMWS. Canoe Club. Namu. Capital. Brycelands. All of them are on the kind of outer fringes of what is normal. Double RL is very specific. Namu, very specific. Lemaire, that's another one. I don't have anything from Lemaire in my closet, but I love following them because I'm inspired. Same thing with Capital.

1:34:29So if you're feeling in a rut, just follow a bunch of things that you don't think that you would be into because every now and then you're like, hmm, that's interesting. And then my go-tos. My go-tos are, I have two go-tos. I have whatever jeans don't stink when I'm just running out and I need to go to the grocery store. I have a pair of jeans. I also have a pair of 18 East pants that I wear that are like super big, super casual. And I put on a t-shirt, Vans, and if it's cold, a cardigan from Inishman. Yeah, my go-to is always the same thing as jeans, trucker jacket, vintage Lee trucker jacket, and then some kind of workwear shirt, plaid, chambray.

1:35:07and then either the recently the Red Wings Picos boot in Hawthorne Mule Skinner or a pair of Vans or sometimes Alden Leisure Handzones. Oh yeah, nice. So for me, when I think of when you get stuck in a rut, I think you're wearing the same outfit all the time. So for me, it's that specific combo. I find I agree with you just following certain accounts to get inspiration. But I also find that I wear that combo because it feels good, familiar. I like it. And then if I want to get out of that rut, I just think of that specific combo. And then I think of one or two items that I can take in that uniform and just move it one step away.

1:35:49So instead of jeans, for example, I like jeans that are slightly higher rise, slightly fuller leg without going super baggy. And then And so something that is like that, but it's not exactly like jeans is a pair of fatigues. So it's a similar cut, similar workwear origin, but it's slightly different. Or I think of, for example, that trucker jacket has a slightly wide body cropped fit. And I like Captain Sunshine's photographer jacket, which has a similar kind of workwear feel and aesthetic, similar silhouette, but is not exactly like that. Okay. I think that's true for a lot of things. If you like a Shetland sweater, if you wear that all the time, then consider like a sweatshirt or an Aaron sweater or something.

1:36:32There are certain items that are just one step removed, a little bit, you know, kind of drawing on the same history, but it's not exactly that item. And then if you pick up things that are one step removed, you can vary that uniform. I like that. It's familiar to you, but won't be too different. Put too much kind of cognitive load in the morning of getting close. Right. Too much to think about. Yeah. The next part is authenticity and best version of. This writer asks, I am a union concrete worker in Cleveland, union strong, and have a question about clothing authenticity. I don't take issue with someone who wears workwear, but who doesn't perform manual labor, but I find the designer versions to be odd.

1:37:11For example, I have raw denim roundhouse jeans that I break in at work. The more expensive alternatives feel like they lack authenticity. And perhaps I lack the eye for it, but I don't see what is so much better about them. When you mentioned the Alden Indie, I looked at them and thought, these are my mock-toe thoroughgoods, but not as durable. And they feel a bit like a costume. I sometimes see workwear from designer brands and wonder why I wouldn't just get the real thing. Isn't there something more real about a camber tee or a hoodie than a Buck Mason one? It almost feels like the aesthetic is cheapened through an item that mimics a utilitarian one without being it or having that utility.

1:37:46I was curious about how you guys thought about this tension. And the second question is, I've heard you both rate the Volsterino as the top tier suede bomber. That makes me curious. Across classic menswear pieces, what single brand and model do you each consider the definitive version of that item? Like the best M43, best chore coat, OCBD, Chino, White T, so on and so on. Can I give you my thoughts on, I think of these two questions as really, I grouped them together and my answer is the same. Oh, okay. I think, I don't think of clothes in terms of tiers like that. I think, and I don't think of budget in terms of like tiers.

1:38:20I don't think the more you spend, the better thing. I mean, sometimes that is true, but I don't necessarily think of it as climbing up a ladder. I think of budget as you have a budget of what you're willing to spend on item. And the more you're willing to spend, the more options open up to you. Okay. So I agree that there are certain items that have genuine, authentic, you know, utilitarian history and authenticity. Yeah. Carhartt double knees are, you know, things that people actually wear for work. Yeah. Also things that people wear for fashion purposes. The reason, I think, I don't know what those cost, like maybe a hundred bucks or something, 60 bucks?

1:38:52If that. Yeah, they're pretty cheap. Yeah. If you're willing to spend a bit more, it doesn't necessarily mean you get a better item in objective measure, but it does mean that a designer or a company can take that idea and play with it. Yeah. So they can start using, you know, a unique denim fabric that is woven in Japan and, you know, it was dyed in this interesting way or made from these interesting fibers. Or they can play with the silhouette. You know, Carhartt Double Knees is made from a duck cloth. It has not changed for decades. Which is, to its credit, I mean, that's one of the reasons why it's great.

1:39:28Yeah. And it comes in a certain fit, comes in a certain fabric. I think there are like maybe two or three colors or something like that. Yeah. But if you open up your scope, if you open up your budget, then someone can start playing with the fit and silhouette. Right. They can make a slimmer one or a wider one, a drop crotch one. They can use weird fabrics. And I think that's true for all items. There are, a camber hoodie is fantastic. But if you're willing to spend a bit more, it doesn't necessarily mean you get a better item. But it means you can try out different things. And I think of it similar to food.

1:40:02I love an affordable, relatively cheap$10,$12 burrito. And I could eat that my entire life. I genuinely love$12 burritos. But if you're willing to spend a bit more, you can then, every once in a while, go to some fancy Italian restaurant. Or go to get pho or get Japanese ramen. There are different grades of ramen. If you're willing to spend$50 on a ramen bowl, all sorts of chefs can do sorts of weird things. Yeah, even if you pay more for a burrito, you can get, oh, maybe a meat that is not normally on the menu. Right. And so I think if you think of things in that context, you don't feel pressured to get to feel like you're climbing up a ladder.

1:40:43You just think of there are options that are now available to me and what is going to make me happiest. And that could be the Carhartt double knees. It could be a weird version that you find at Standard & Strange. Yeah. You know, it could be a completely bespoke pair from some, you know, recently we talked about a guy in New York who sews custom workwear. Right. And then you get that experience of working with this craftsperson in New York who does these custom designs. And he can accommodate all these weird requests. I think it's easier or better to think of clothing in those terms rather than I'm climbing up a hierarchy.

1:41:23I agree. And you're paying for different things. Um, since the, the person who posed the question is, uh, a union concrete mason, I'm assuming, then I'll, I'll use work tools as an example. Like you can use a pair of channel locks that are cheap made in the USA and they're great. They do the job. They're made from metal and they're covered in plastic at the handles, or you can pay a little bit more and you could get Nipix pliers, which are made in Germany, also made from metal. but the design is so much better because it's got a locking mechanism or it's got a button that you can push and adjust with one hand.

1:41:59So it's still a tool. Both are equally as good. They get the job done. The Nipix is not as burly. It's slimmer, but it feels lighter in the hand. It doesn't weigh you down so much. So there's pros and cons to that. If you want to do jeans, since you wear jeans to work, you can get$100 Made in USA jeans from Gustin. And they only have three fits. They They do a crowdfunding campaign for each run. Everything's pre-bought. They make it at scale. They don't keep stock and they don't have brick and mortar stores. They're going to be inexpensive. I've used them on the job site and they've lasted just as long as$300 pairs of jeans.

1:42:36Yeah. Because they're usually made from the same denim. But what's the difference? Well, the difference is, as you said, once your budget gets higher, then you can start to experiment with, oh, this is Hank dyed. This is rope dyed. Let's play with the original shuttle looms so that they now shuttle slower and they make a slubbier fabric. And all these things cost money. They can't do it at scale. So that's what you're paying for. If your taste, though, if out of all the options, what makes you happiest is the Gustin jeans, then that's great. You found it. That's the thing that is for you is the best.

1:43:12And it happens to be the more affordable out of all the designer ones. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I will never buy a pair of double knee pants other than Carhartts because I'm used to them. I like them. And the more expensive versions aren't that interesting to me. Denim, I'm super interested in denim. So I'll gladly pay stupid amounts of money for denim that will last just as long as ones that cost far less. Right. I got this question online recently. Someone said, you know, I bought a pair of$300 designer jeans. I didn't find them last any longer than my pair of Levi's. And yeah, it's a pair of jeans, right?

1:43:46The fabric is the fabric. To some degree, there are more durable fabrics, but to some degree, you are just buying a garment. It's not so much that you're paying for the label, you're paying for all of the stuff that goes into making clothes, which is the design, the small details, how the garment makes you feel, the semiotics of the clothes. Someone puts on a pair of jeans because they saw them on Brad Pitt and they think they look like Brad Pitt, even though they don't. And they feel like Brad Pitt. So you're paying for that. Someone created the semiotic meaning of getting the jeans on Brad Pitt, then the photographer.

1:44:20There's that creation, which gives you the feeling. Now, do you actually look like Brad Pitt? Maybe, maybe not. But you are paying for that feeling. And so it's hard to me to say that this is the one that you should buy because it will be different for everyone, how you relate to clothes and what you value. And that's part of the process of developing taste. To this question, though, of what do you think is the best version of, I think you listed some things. of what you think is the best version of. I'm happy to go with the process of going through these items. I would just say that I don't think my choices are actually the best version on some objective measure.

1:44:55They're just the things that I personally like. Yeah, this is all subjective. Yeah. Like the best M43, there are some that cost thousands of dollars, but I think the best one is vintage. I paid$60 for a vintage M43 at a thrift store. So to me, that's the best one. Um, my favorite short coat was made from jackknife, rest in peace, hand hammered rivets. And what do you call those things that are on the back of rivets? They're made of, usually they don't put anything there. Sometimes they'll put a piece of cloth, but sometimes they'll put like little pieces of leather backing, like a leather backing so that it doesn't, uh, you know, when the, when the rivet moves, it doesn't cut into the cloth.

1:45:35Everything is a single needle stitching everywhere. That was, that was amazing. I love that until I grew out of it. But I mean, I have my favorites. What are some of your favorites? M43, I agree. Vintage, to me, Chore Coat and M43, I would just go vintage. Yeah. Vintage French Chore Coats, partly because, not necessarily because they were made better, but because the vintage M43 and vintage Chore Coats have wear patterns that look really cool that you are unlikely going to develop if you're listening to this podcast. You know what I'm saying? Unless you're like my Union Mason. Yeah, unless you're the guy from Cleveland who's wondering why are people buying these clothes, that guy can just buy a brand new M43, brand new short coat, and they'll look fantastic.

1:46:22But everyone else, part of the reason why you're buying vintage is because the wear pattern looks fantastic. For me, on the list of the things that the person asked for, best Oxford cloth button-down for things that aren't a bespoke tailor, I like Mercer & Sons. I'm wearing a Mercer & Sons OCBD right now. They do fit huge in the body. Like Vintage Brooks Brothers. Yeah, Vintage Brooks Brothers. But you can work with David to figure out, because they have some customization options. Oh, nice. The thing about Mercer is they use a cloth that I just, I haven't found at like J Press and any of these other places.

1:47:00They just use a very, they use a stout, nice, hefty cloth that I haven't found in other places. And I think it's really great. And they somehow, they just get the color right. Oh, do they? The only thing, again, is that David Mercer really values a very full fit. So you will have to work with him to figure out how to get the fit that you want within their system. But to me, he makes one of the best OCBDs. How much are his shirts? $225, I think. Okay. Made in the U.S. Yeah, made in the U.S. Nice. To me, the best fabric and color out there. Best Chino, I think that was on the list. I'm not really a Chino guy, I admit.

1:47:40Yeah, I only have one pair. So if I was to get a pair of Chinos, I would do Buck Mason, partly because I think the quintessential Chino, for me, what I prefer is the one that's like the mid-century army style. Yeah. A little bit more rugged. Officer's pant. Officer pant, higher rise, fuller legs, stouter cloth. I prefer that because I find it easier to wear with workwear. With workwear, as opposed to fancy Chinos. Fancy Chinos, which are cool. like the Rota fancy chinos, but it's just not, I prefer the more rugged chino. And to me, Buck Mason, they offer, they do the full saddle cut, slim, I don't, I can't remember all the, I think Ford Standard and then the Slim Maverick.

1:48:22Their paperback chino in the full saddle is what I would prefer. Yeah, that's what I have. And I like that. That's my, that's what I would choose. The best jeans, for me, again, I would not say that these are the best jeans. They're just the jeans I personally like and wear. For me, again, Buck Mason full saddle jeans made with raw denim, raw Japanese selvedge denim. It just happens to be a cut that I really like. But in the past, I've really liked 316s jeans. I really like double RL jeans. If I were to direct someone to a store that I thought sold really good jeans, I would just say go to Self Edge.

1:48:57Yeah. And just try on a bunch of jeans and see which you like. Yeah. I have bought a bunch of jeans from them. and there's many of them that I like, but of the ones that I have bought from them, hands down, my favorite is from Strike Gold. Their 5103 Slubjean has amazing fades, just crazy fades because of the fact that it's woven. They describe it as if you turn it to the side, it almost looks like a tapestry and it does when it's raw. And then you wear it in with time and it just has just insane fades. It's thick, it's pliable, and it's a little on the heavy side. It's 15 ounces or 17 ounces.

1:49:37That's the thing. Strike Gold to me is very much a connoisseur's jean. I would never put my dad in that. No, I would never put my dad in that. Because my dad wanted a pair of jeans. And I was like, listen, we're just going to go to Levi's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get you. We're not doing like LVC. Right. You know, we're not doing raw denim. Yeah. We're just getting normal jeans that my dad can wear. Like he's not going to soak them in the tub. He's not going to run in the ocean. about like, you know, Zimbabwe cotton or whatever. He just wants normal jeans. And so like, yeah, we're going to go to Levi's.

1:50:08Strike gold is the exact opposite of that. They're like super connoisseur, like super heavy denim, weird weave, weird fades. Like that to me is - Hank dye. Yeah. Zimbabwe and Pima cotton. Yeah. Best t-shirt? I, so for the best regular t-shirt, Hanes. I mean, that's just if you use it as an undershirt. But if I were to go out in a t-shirt, I really like the Buck Mason, either their tough knit for a lighter weight t-shirt, but I really like their field spec, which is heavier. It's stouter. That's a great shirt. Too warm for hot days though. It's too warm for hot days. So the tough knit's a nice lightweight one.

1:50:47The tough knit, I think, is better for very hot days. Like we're talking, I would say like 75 degrees and up, 80 degrees. 80 degrees, I would not wear the field spec. No, no, no. To me, the field spec is like a 60 degree temp. Yeah. Sure. It's great for, yeah, heavy weights. Best t-shirt that I've ever bought in my life was from Chamala, which is run by this Japanese woman in New York who refuses to give interviews. I've tried. Oh, really? I love her work. Did she ever respond? No, I contacted, I went through the 180 store, which is one of the representatives. Yeah. She's like not, she has an Instagram account, really posts, doesn't do interviews.

1:51:26I love that. I love, don't talk to me. I don't do interviews. I just make clothes. I'm not doing any. I love it. She did this t-shirt back in the day called the Game Day t-shirt. And it's two pieces of fabric sewn together, which makes the t-shirt drape really uniquely. And then in this cut that I think makes you look more athletic than you are. Oh, really? And it's just this really nice cut. I haven't found anyone that does anything like it. She released this t-shirt like really long time ago. And never releases it again. Exactly. Exactly. She does the perfect version of all these things every single season, and you'll never see it again.

1:52:06Has no interest in growing the business, like publicity. Amazing. I love her approach to business. The other one that stays in my mind is Wallace and Barnes did t-shirts before the recent whole bankruptcy and all this stuff. This was like 15 years ago or so. They used to do this t-shirt that I think aged really, really well. Really? A white t-shirt? They did them in different colors. They haven't done them in a while, but Walson Barnes still does t-shirts. And I've been tempted to buy their latest t-shirts just to see if I like them as much as the old ones. But those are the two t-shirts that stick in my mind.

1:52:44Wow. If we're talking about nostalgia, I would say the J.Crew garment wash t-shirt in the 90s and early 2000s was my absolute favorite. Yeah. The thing just, it was like wearing a doe skin t-shirt. It was so washed. It was pulverized, but it wasn't thin. Did it hold its shape? It held its shape. That's the thing about the Wallace and Barnes t-shirt that I bought 10, 15 years ago is that the color holds its shape. It doesn't stretch. It's just like, it just ages really well. And I don't know what the new Wallace and Barnes t-shirts are like, but I've been tempted to buy them to see if they've held on to the recipe.

1:53:18But that's the thing is that some of these mass market brands are just really good at perfecting one type of garment because they have so much control over the supply chain. Yeah. And they have the expertise. they can really do those types of garments really well. What about your favorite chambray shirt? Favorite chambray shirt for me is Brycelen's Teardrop chambray shirt, but I would do it, they allow you to do it as a custom order with the longer collar point. I like that. And I also like Mr. Freedom's chambray shirts. They do like a basic kind of workwear to pocket style. Favorite denim Western shirt for me is Capital, but they do different versions through the seasons.

1:53:55They've done versions with a contrast cuff inside. I don't like that. But they've done just like a normal denim Western shirt that I've, they do different versions, but the more normal ones I really like. My favorite chambray shirt is similar to you. Although I like the regular USN because of the collar. And I like the workwear style pockets. The tear jaw pockets are beautiful. From Brycelain's you're talking about? From Brycelain's, yeah. The tear jaw pockets are beautiful. I do like those. But because I like the workwear style pockets a little bit better. Yeah. So I like that one. I have it.

1:54:27I love it. And then my favorite Western shirt, either denim or they have other fabrics, is, and I've mentioned this a million times on the pod, it's Stevenson Overall Company. Their Cody shirt has, it's the best. They have a yoke. They have a yoke in the front, a yoke in the back. They have the perfect shape pockets in the front. Just my absolute favorite. So our next question is, I don't even know what category this would be in. So I'll just ask the question. What you think you look like versus what you actually look like. For years, I've seen this meme. The usual formula is two guys wearing very similar outfits.

1:55:00One looks effortless and suave. The other looks like a door-to-door encyclopedia salesman. What do you think is separating the Richard Giers from the Jeff Bezos's of the world? Why can two men wear seemingly the same thing and yet give a completely opposite impression? And is it normal to look in the mirror one day and think you're closer to gear, only to catch your reflection in a shop window later and wonder if you might actually be closer to Bezos? Who wrote this? This is great, actually. I think we've all felt that way. Have you felt that way? You're often the left side of that equation because you're a literal Ralph Lauren model.

1:55:36True, but I've actually... No, I've never felt that way, but I have thought of an idea and I'm like, I'm going to execute this idea and this is going to be awesome. And then I... There are a lot of pictures I take that for very good reason I do not publish because I think I know what I look like, but I do not look like it. What you thought this photo looked like, what the photo actually looks like. I have done those, I just haven't published them because my sanity has told me, actually, don't hit posts. Not a good idea. So, I mean, maybe less than some guys, but I think what, I don't know. I, because I'm thinking of some people, I'm like, oh yeah, who wouldn't want to look like Indiana Jones?

1:56:27And then I remember one time distinctly saying, I feel like Indiana Jones, and I put together an Indiana Jones outfit and looked at myself in the mirror and said, don't go outside.

1:56:40Don't go outside. And thankfully, Angela, my wife has stopped me from going outside. Did you have the bullwhip? No, but it was in my eBay watch list for a long time. No, I mean, I think all of us, most of us catch ourselves before doing it. But by God, I wish someone would stop Jeff Bezos. I think this is not only common, but extremely normal. Yeah. I think it's actually a good part of developing your sense of style. I think it's going through this stumbling block. I mean, I remember, to me, some of the people that I've known to have the most consistent, and in my opinion, really great style. Again, I've renamed them all the time in the pods.

1:57:28I think of Bruce Boyer, Yukio Akamein. I think of Yasuto Kamoshita. Those guys, to me, have had a consistent style, sense of style, stable sense of style, and they always look fantastic. But I remember talking to Bruce Boyer, and he was like, you know, when I was really young, the cool guys on the block were like engineer boots and uh you know dressed like marlon brando and he experimented a bit with some casual wear and he he said he bought some suits that he did i don't know if he did the whole like marlon brando thing but he definitely experimented with his style early on and he probably was on the right side of like what you what you think you look like and then marlon brando's on the other side i think part of it is style is a process where you both explore and define your identity.

1:58:14And so as you explore, there's naturally going to be times where you try on things and you realize that's not for you. And I think that's like, that's really normal. I also think that part of avoiding or minimizing, you don't want to like always be on the right side of that equation because if anything, you're wasting a lot of money. And I think part of it is accepting, and I think this somewhat comes with age, accepting who you are to some degree. If you see in a, you know, like I think Coleman Domingo's incredibly stylish. His outfits always look fantastic. And, but it's also part of like a whole.

1:58:48Who he is. Yeah. You know, he's handsome. He's an accomplished actor, talented and accomplished actor. He has a very elegant way of like carrying himself. Like when he talks, he sounds super elegant and sophisticated. And then he wears his outfits never outshine him. They always like are part of him. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's never like a costume. Yeah, so it's part of like a whole package. And if you just adopt that whole thing and you are not necessarily that kind of person, then you're going to be on the right side of that equation. So I think to some degree, it's accepting who you are as a person.

1:59:24Like I have had to accept over the years, I'm just a very nerdy person. And so as much as I want to be a Coleman Domingo, very suave, sophisticated person, I'm not. So I can't necessarily adopt his style. But you do have Wrangler dress jeans. I do have Wrangler dress jeans. But you know, like he did that beautiful Valentino outfit with like the all gold yellow. Yeah. Like I can't pull that off. Very few can pull that off. That's okay. You are among good company. I don't think I could do that either. I think that's part of it is just kind of growing to both explore your identity, but also accept to some parameters.

1:59:58There are certain things about you that you may be really nerdy or you may be, you know, more rebellious. There are just certain kind of personality traits. I also think that part of it is a whole package sort of self-fashioning. It's not just about the clothes, but like your hairstyle. Yes, that's a big part of it too. Sometimes the outfit doesn't look right because all you're doing is transporting the clothes, but you also need the certain hairstyle. Right, that's a big part of it too. You know, like I wrote this article for the Sunday Times earlier this year about men unbuttoning their shirts down to the navel.

2:00:33It's part of this whole sleazy look. Right. And I think I got a quote from you for the article. And you had said like, it's also like, if you want to do the whole sleazy look, you also have to have a certain kind of hairstyle. Yeah, you can't have an Ivy League hairstyle. If you like an Ivy League, it just doesn't, it looks kind of weird. And it's a great hairstyle. Yeah. And it goes great with the Ivy look. But you can't wear that with like a silk shirt, unbuttoned down, and a gold lame suit. So I do think the process of exploring your sense of style, defining your sense of style, that is like a self-exploratory process, hopefully also informed by an honest truth with who you are, which I think once you stop thinking of style as like, I need to look like Richard Gere, and you accept that style is also the weird frumpy looking guy at the bookstore or the gutter punk.

2:01:21Good point. Or the, you know, there are lots of people that I see stylish all the time and they do not look like Richard Gere. And you might be that frumpy bookstore guy. You might be the gutter punk. You might be, you know, the nerdy academic. You could be all sorts of things, but developing that persona, exploring and developing that persona and also considering hairstyle and accepting who you are and expressing who you are, I think is part of that aesthetic. I agree. Yeah. What's the next question? The next question is the middle ground jacket. You guys have gotten a lot of inquiries about finding a good middle ground jacket, something that looks appropriate worn at dinner, dressier than a chore coat, but less dressy than a sport coat.

2:01:59You've recommended the Teba jacket from Sartoria June and the Buck Mason felted chore coat, but I'd be curious about how you guys would go about designing such a piece yourself. Following the logic of style as a social language, what historical, cultural, or aesthetic reference points you'd draw from to start your hypothetical jacket? What would you think would need to change from these references, such as shape, cloth, or details? What kind of lifestyle would your hypothetical jacket fit with? I have an idea for this. You do? Yes. Okay, let's hear it. I was having lunch one time with George Wang, our friend George Wang from Brio.

2:02:37And I was telling him that I was helping this client in New York City rebuild his wardrobe. And this person, we figured out some suits and sport coats for his office. He's an executive at a consulting firm. And so we figured out some suits and sport coats and dress shirts and a very tailored outfit that he can wear. And then he also wanted some things that were a little bit more casual that he could still wear to the office, but wasn't a sport coat. And I'll tell him, this is a very difficult middle ground because I think of suits and sport coats and I think of interesting casual wear. And the interesting casual wear is not necessarily things that you would want to wear as a consultant to the office.

2:03:18Consulting for what thing? Finance? Business consulting. Business consulting, okay. You know, important people stuff, I don't know. So the thing that I told them, I said the problem with a lot of people that try to design around this aesthetic is that they're inventing some totally new form that may logically work, but to me, doesn't make me aspire, feel very good, or, you know, it's just kind of like a design. It's boring as opposed to interesting. It's not just boring, but it's just like it has no identity attached to it. Oh, okay. So I was telling George, I've always thought that the consultant is basically sitting at their desk all day, which is basically a lot of jobs.

2:04:00A lot of people are sitting at their desk all day typing. And that in itself is not a very aspirational lifestyle. That lifestyle has been derided since, at least since the end of the Second World War. Cube warrior. Yeah, keyboard warrior, cubicle drone, cubicle farmer. However, the one, and maybe I'm patting myself on the back, but the one sitting at your desk job that I think has some romance around it is the writer. Sure, that makes sense. The idea of a writer still holds some romance. Yeah. I think. Yeah, no, it absolutely does. Right? It's the same romance that is the reason why people aspire to like Ivy League.

2:04:40George Hemingway. George Hemingway, but like Ivy style is basically a desk uniform. Oh, yeah. Right? It absolutely is. And so I thought, I told George, I wish somebody would invent a jacket around the idea of a rider. That's basically, yeah, some kind of jacket that. So it's short and cropped. It has lots of pockets. Short and cropped. Lots of pockets. But the specifics of that jacket, I haven't figured out yet. But it's basically short and cropped because that's like the pilot's jacket is basically short and cropped. Yeah, you're sitting down all the time. Because you're sitting down all the time.

2:05:16You don't want it to get in the way. Short and cropped. Okay. Lots of unique pockets. There is a brand called Slow Learner that did a chore coat designed for readers. And it's very goofy looking. I like it. I say goofy in a charming way. Yeah. It's this chore coat with these expandable pockets designed to hold books. But I think that jacket holds appeal because people like to think of themselves as intellectual. Right, as readers. I'm a reader. I'm a writer. I have seen coats, short coats like that, that have outsized pockets on the inside and the interior. People basically buy clothes as a way to fantasize about some lifestyle or virtue they think they have.

2:05:56And so they buy a short coat because they want to seem salt to the earth. Right. You know, work with your hands. And a lot of these clothes are basically the way that people put meaning on themselves. Yeah, for sure. And so that's why I think a writer's jacket would do that. Now, again, Bryce Lenz did a lookbook years ago around the idea of a writer that I thought looked fantastic. Yeah, and nothing was groundbreaking. Nothing was groundbreaking. But that's kind of the thing is that I think when you position the clothes, not just in terms of design, but what you're communicating, the idea, that's when people get excited about it.

2:06:30because then they think like, oh, I can see myself as like the stay-at-home writer. And then the clothes become appealing. And that's, you know, like Monty Don. Like how many people are actually wearing Monty Don's clothes in gardening? Very few. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, but you imagine yourself in that lifestyle and therefore it becomes appealing. So the only contours of that jacket that I have in my head, short and cropped, sort of somewhat like a trucker jacket in the general silhouette, unique pockets to hold like notebooks, you know, like a pen. Yeah. Possibly, depending on how cropped the jacket is, you can't do it if the jacket is too cropped.

2:07:06But there used to be these really old pocket systems, like a game pocket in sport coats that people used to hunt in sport coats. Right, yeah. And then they would take the dead animals. On the interior. On the interior. And they'd stuff the dead animal into the game pocket. So sometimes they could sneak it past the game warden. That was the intention of it. you know you can imagine designing certain pockets that were historically used for hunting or holding game but nowadays can be used to hold a paperback or you know like an ipad or something yeah but again the the specifics of the jacket are very loose and obviously you know made out of yeah some kind of like tweed or i was gonna say like a writer has to wear a tweed yeah like a tweed or like a mole like heavy moleskin or something heavy moleskin yeah something that is basically feels a little bit rustic.

2:07:57Feels rustic. Moleskine ages very quickly, very nicely. That's good. Do you have any thoughts? Man, I mean, if it was something based off of my lifestyle, everything's already been done. The photographer's jacket is great and I love it. Photographers are so good. Oh man, and I utilize every single... Every time I go traveling, I take that jacket now. Because it always works. The only thing I would change with the photographer's jacket is, and this is silly because I haven't yet worn it in the rain, but I would like to make it a little water resistant because sometimes I have photographed in the rain, but I haven't had the photographer's jacket.

2:08:34And I'm like, it would be nice if I could put everything in a pocket very quickly and it would be out of harm's way. But what else would I do? I mean, so here's something. When I did something with Evan Kanori close to 15 years ago already, when I was an apprentice, He was working at Jackknife and he had his own offshoot brand called Three before he named it his eponymous. And it was similar to a chore coat, but it was made out of denim on one side and wool on the other. I thought I would like to do it again in like a cotton moleskin because the beauty of denim and every kind of workwear is that you can just toss it in the wash and clean it.

2:09:16But once he lined it in wool, I'm like, it's cool, but now I can't wash it. So if I were to do something similar, it would be an inside-out jacket. So it would be denim on one side and duck cloth on the other. And when you flip the collar, it would be, I mean, it had buttons on both sides. He really did a lot of work. I'm so bummed. I ended up giving the jacket away because like many things at the time, it was slim fit and I grew out of it. But I would love to do something like that again, because I wore that jacket to death. Like I wore it to the job site and people are like, what are you doing with this?

2:09:49But I love that jacket. And I got him a lot of business. Yeah. But I like the idea of, it looked more like a blazer. So it's similar to the felted short coat that Buck Mason has. So you can either button it all the way up and it would look kind of like a grandfather's jacket. It had a lapel, but you can either button it all the way up or leave it open and it looked almost like a short sport coat. I really like that. His three-pocket jacket is very similar. That was his first iteration of the three-pocket jacket. But he's never done one that had a fabric on both sides since then, not for a 15-year.

2:10:28I would love to have something like that. I would wear it to work. I would wear it out. Like one side would be the denim side that gets like all janky. And the other side would be duck cloth. Or one side would be moleskins. I don't know. You can kind of mess around with it. So one could be the work jacket and the other one could be the... So you just turn it out to make it look dressier? Yeah. Turn it out to make it look dressier. Like maybe moleskin because that's a little bit dressier, but it still has that rugged feel to it. Something that can be washed though. Yeah. That's what I would do.

2:10:56Nice. I never thought about that until now. Great question, whoever sent that in. Yeah. Well, thank everyone for the questions that they sent in. And for the ones that we didn't get, don't worry. We will get them in a later episode. Some of those are going to be used for separate episodes that we'll do a full episode on your questions. So some of those are being put to the side for a full episode. But if you'd like to ask a question for future AMAs, join the Blamo community and then join the Slack community. The Slack community is something where people can, on a daily basis, ask questions regarding style-related things.

2:11:29They talk about watches. They talk about sales. And the Slack community is a great resource. But then every three months or so, we also post an AMA kind of, you know, ask us anything. And then we will do these public episodes sponsored by Bezel. So thank you to Bezel. Thank you, Bezel, for sponsoring this. And thank you, everyone, for listening in. See you next time, Derek. All right. Take care, Peter.